1 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:11,070 Well, welcome everybody. Welcome to this special edition of the Art History Radio Hour. 2 00:00:11,070 --> 00:00:12,240 My name's Geoff Batchen. 3 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:21,090 I'm the Professor of History of Art here at the University of Oxford, and I am the show host of this edition of the Art History Radio Hour. 4 00:00:21,090 --> 00:00:26,820 Let me just quickly - for those of you that haven't joined us - before mention the describe the etiquette: 5 00:00:26,820 --> 00:00:37,200 If you have a question, if you wouldn't mind using the golden hand function at the top right of your Teams screen. 6 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,700 Olena and I are going to be talking for a while and then I'll be inviting questions from our audience. 7 00:00:41,700 --> 00:00:46,290 So please feel free to take a note and think of a question. 8 00:00:46,290 --> 00:00:56,520 You can either put that question in the chat function, or you can raise your hand and ask Olena question yourself. In a little while, 9 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:05,100 Olivia, who is helping behind the scenes to operate today's Art History Radio Hour, is going to be putting some links in the chat function. 10 00:01:05,100 --> 00:01:17,340 If you have an interest in contributing, for example, to the assistance of refugees, particularly those that are now on the border with Poland, 11 00:01:17,340 --> 00:01:24,660 there'll be some links there and which you can find out some more information about how to make a contribution. 12 00:01:24,660 --> 00:01:35,810 So, in light of Russia's ongoing invasion of Ukraine, we decided we should devote a radio hour to the history and culture of that country. 13 00:01:35,810 --> 00:01:38,740 And joining me today is Olena Chervonik, 14 00:01:38,740 --> 00:01:46,640 a Ukrainian doctoral student in History of Art who has family members who are currently in Kyiv and elsewhere in Ukraine. 15 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:54,890 So, let me begin by thanking Olena for being with us. I'm sure, this an incredibly stressful and upsetting time. 16 00:01:54,890 --> 00:02:00,250 Before we go on, perhaps I could just ask you how your family members are faring? 17 00:02:00,250 --> 00:02:06,710 [OLENA CHERVONIK]: Well, I mean, they're OK more or less. 18 00:02:06,710 --> 00:02:15,320 My brother is in Kyiv, and he is the one we're worried about the most at the moment. 19 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:19,550 My parents are about 100 kilometres away from Kyiv. 20 00:02:19,550 --> 00:02:23,480 In the city of [INAUDIBLE]. It's a regional centre. 21 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:31,460 It's not a small city, but it's been more or less quiet so far because it's kind of inland and it doesn't have 22 00:02:31,460 --> 00:02:38,210 anything strategically important in terms of like military infrastructure. 23 00:02:38,210 --> 00:02:43,280 And so, they have been shelled kind of on the suburbs, but not in the city. 24 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:48,410 But then Kyiv, of course, is effectively under siege. 25 00:02:48,410 --> 00:02:55,880 And because Russians can't really penetrate on land, they can't really penetrate the defence of actually any city. 26 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:57,950 They did not occupy anything. 27 00:02:57,950 --> 00:03:07,880 And so, they started bombing, as you know, they started bombing the civilians because it's like impudent(?) rage, like they cannot do anything to get in. 28 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,150 And that's scary. And like the latest, 29 00:03:11,150 --> 00:03:26,570 there is information that they've started, there are some kind of bombs, thermal bombs and they constantly increasing this, 30 00:03:26,570 --> 00:03:33,800 the level of threat, the nuclear bombs and stuff. 31 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:44,780 And we see that Putin, I don't think, is going to stop doing whatever he's doing, like all his threats. 32 00:03:44,780 --> 00:03:51,260 I don't think like his threats are discursive, you know, he's actually probably preparing 33 00:03:51,260 --> 00:03:55,370 to make it the large scale, even more so, I don't know. 34 00:03:55,370 --> 00:04:02,180 [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: I think you were telling me your brother is in charge of a bomb shelter? [OLENA CHERVONIK]: so, he's actually listening to us right now. 35 00:04:02,180 --> 00:04:09,320 I just saw. Yes, he is. So, he tried sign up for territorial defence. 36 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:17,870 By the time he showed up there, they told him ‘we don't have any resources’ like, people within the first day in Kyiv itself, 37 00:04:17,870 --> 00:04:25,400 there are 40000 people signed up for the defence, and so there is no, you know, extra armour, 38 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:26,840 they can't equip him, 39 00:04:26,840 --> 00:04:36,200 and so, he's doing whatever he can within that small district that he's staying on the left Bank of Kyiv and yes, the bomb shelter. 40 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:43,940 When they say ‘bomb shelter’, we're talking really about a parking garage in one of the residential buildings, 41 00:04:43,940 --> 00:04:52,760 so, it's underground and that's where people are hiding. but they're like guarding the bomb shelter, some logistics questions about the shelter. 42 00:04:52,760 --> 00:05:04,670 and then recently the army actually started well, asking people to help them create barricades, 43 00:05:04,670 --> 00:05:14,970 and so, this is what my brother has been doing, like helping barricading the train road within the city, 44 00:05:14,970 --> 00:05:25,100 [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: In a way, this radio hour came out of the conversation Olena and I were having a few days before the invasion began, 45 00:05:25,100 --> 00:05:35,570 because a particularly striking element of the invasion is Putin's strategic use of history as one of his military weapons. 46 00:05:35,570 --> 00:05:41,930 In his speech on February 21, Putin claimed that Ukraine does not warrant recognition as an independent state, 47 00:05:41,930 --> 00:05:48,050 being no more than an artifice cut out of Russia by a misguided Lenin in 1917. 48 00:05:48,050 --> 00:05:53,270 so, history seems to be at stake in this particular situation. 49 00:05:53,270 --> 00:05:59,480 in fact, the medieval empire Kievan Rus' was anchored by Kyiv from at least the mid-11th century 50 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:04,370 and at that time included large amounts of territory that now fall within Ukraine, 51 00:06:04,370 --> 00:06:14,480 Belarus and Russia. after the Bolshevik revolution, a Ukrainian people's republic was declared on the 23rd of June 1917. 52 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:24,650 but this was forcibly transformed into the Ukrainian soviet socialist republic in 1922 and thereby incorporated into the Soviet Union. 53 00:06:24,650 --> 00:06:25,610 in that context, 54 00:06:25,610 --> 00:06:35,690 at least six million Ukrainians lost their lives defending the Soviet Union during world war two. In 1991 with the dissolution of the Soviet Union. 55 00:06:35,690 --> 00:06:42,840 a referendum was held in Ukraine and 92 percent of the people who voted, voted for independence. 56 00:06:42,840 --> 00:06:46,760 there's been a kind of messy 20 years in Ukrainian politics. 57 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:57,500 but in 2013, after a move by the Ukrainian government towards closer ties with Russia, civil protests led to the overthrow of the then government. 58 00:06:57,500 --> 00:07:04,790 as a consequence, in 2014, Russian forces entered Ukrainian territory and annexed Crimea, 59 00:07:04,790 --> 00:07:11,180 claiming then that ninety seven percent of the population were in favour of such an annexation. 60 00:07:11,180 --> 00:07:17,150 now, in 2022, we have Putin claiming that his invasion is about restoring Ukraine, 61 00:07:17,150 --> 00:07:26,990 and it's for 44 million people geographically the second largest country in Europe to their rightful place within a greater Russian homeland. 62 00:07:26,990 --> 00:07:31,160 in the face of all this, Olena & I thought that as historians ourselves, 63 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:35,600 we should invite a discussion of the role that historians and especially art historians, 64 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:43,730 that being our particular area of practise - what role we might play in this context. 65 00:07:43,730 --> 00:07:52,900 So, the big question seems to be, is there in fact, a distinctive Ukrainian identity, language, history, culture? 66 00:07:52,900 --> 00:07:58,180 and I thought that rather than talking about these things in abstract terms, 67 00:07:58,180 --> 00:08:05,290 I would invite Olena to come onto the Radio Hour because her own personal story touches on many of the elements that I’ve just, 68 00:08:05,290 --> 00:08:09,700 you know, quickly surveyed. 69 00:08:09,700 --> 00:08:15,220 so, I thought maybe we would begin by tracking through some of Olena’s life story to 70 00:08:15,220 --> 00:08:21,580 see whether a personal account can offer us some insight into these bigger questions. 71 00:08:21,580 --> 00:08:25,300 So, Olena, you were actually born of Ukrainian parents? 72 00:08:25,300 --> 00:08:32,350 but as a citizen of the Soviet Union. Perhaps you could tell us a bit about what it was like to be a citizen of the Soviet Union. 73 00:08:32,350 --> 00:08:40,960 [OLENA CHERVONIK]: well, I mean, I was a child in the 80s, which already in effect. 74 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:46,030 I mean, it was still a Soviet Union, of course, but it was already Perestroika, like, 75 00:08:46,030 --> 00:08:51,790 you know, all of those things that eventually led to the dissolution of the Soviet Union. 76 00:08:51,790 --> 00:09:01,870 so, I kind of saw the tail end of this and we actually started talking with you before about the language. 77 00:09:01,870 --> 00:09:09,520 and I think this is probably a very good starting point from unravelling like what soviet 78 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:16,540 union was in terms and what was the relationships of Ukraine within that construction, 79 00:09:16,540 --> 00:09:28,330 which I personally very kind of vocally insist that Russia is an empire and Ukraine-Russia relationship is, you know, imperial colonial relationship. 80 00:09:28,330 --> 00:09:36,970 but a lot of people, a lot of historians actually doubt that or argue against that because, you know, they start saying, 81 00:09:36,970 --> 00:09:45,970 we understand that Russia is an empire in terms of colonising the Caucasus or the central Asia because, indeed, 82 00:09:45,970 --> 00:09:52,480 there is a huge difference in terms of like religion and in ethnicity and language. 83 00:09:52,480 --> 00:10:02,740 but Ukraine and Russia, like, you are so close, you have so many similarities, like is this really in a colonial kind of dependency? 84 00:10:02,740 --> 00:10:09,100 and of course, you know, the question is, how much difference is a difference? 85 00:10:09,100 --> 00:10:15,650 [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: Let’s talk about that because, you know, you grew up speaking both Russian and Ukrainian. 86 00:10:15,650 --> 00:10:20,800 Was that typical for citizens of the Soviet Union? 87 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:25,960 [OLENA CHERVONIK]: Well, I would say that Ukraine is bilingual, really. so, I did. 88 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:30,160 I grew up speaking Russian. I would say not even Ukrainian. 89 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:38,650 I grew up speaking Russian, although ironically, my family doesn't have Russia like they're not ethnically Russian. 90 00:10:38,650 --> 00:10:43,120 From what we can, we would trace down to the fourth generation. 91 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:49,730 we don't have Russians in my family. so, my father of Belarus and polish origin. 92 00:10:49,730 --> 00:10:55,900 he was born in Belarus and his family moved to Ukraine in the end of the 50s. 93 00:10:55,900 --> 00:11:09,460 And so, my mom was born in Ukraine. she's partly Ukrainian, partly Jewish and partly Karaim(?) or we think so. 94 00:11:09,460 --> 00:11:15,280 they're almost extinct now, but it's a Turkic people of Judaic religion. 95 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:19,240 it's like very kind of specific concoction. 96 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:31,780 so anyway, but my mom's family, so my parents were already Russian speaking, but my mom's family, my grandparents, great grandparents, 97 00:11:31,780 --> 00:11:40,480 they were Ukrainian speaking like, we actually have postcards and letters in our family archives with, you know. 98 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:46,420 People writing each other and sharing Ukrainian with Ukrainian alphabet because it is slightly different. 99 00:11:46,420 --> 00:11:50,890 and so, the thing is. and then when I talk to my grandparents on my dad's side, 100 00:11:50,890 --> 00:11:59,470 they were telling me that they spoke some kind of combination of Belarus and polish, so their generation was not Russian speaking. 101 00:11:59,470 --> 00:12:04,240 so, this is really a soviet, you know, 102 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:13,750 soviet attempt at conjuring up a new soviet subjecthood that was supposed to be Russian 103 00:12:13,750 --> 00:12:20,530 because Russian was a was kind of a lingua franca because Soviet Union was a mixture of, 104 00:12:20,530 --> 00:12:30,250 you know, whoever. so, it was a lingua franca in a sense that it was, of course, more convenient to have one common language. 105 00:12:30,250 --> 00:12:39,130 but at the same time, it was also a tool of kind of levelling all the ethnic differences or removing them or making, you know, 106 00:12:39,130 --> 00:12:51,190 and in in that way, making people more obedient, less insisting on their own ethnicity and therefore autonomy. 107 00:12:51,190 --> 00:12:57,520 [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: Let's talk about the two languages, because that's come up a number of times, I’ve noticed in news reports. 108 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:03,490 What is the difference between Ukrainian and Russian that they share Cyrillic or some versions of Cyrillic? 109 00:13:03,490 --> 00:13:10,330 but what is the distinctions between them? [OLENA CHERVONIK]: Well, you know, it's Russian and Ukrainian do belong to the Slavic group. 110 00:13:10,330 --> 00:13:15,490 the Slavic languages also. I mean, it's a larger group, but they also have three branches. 111 00:13:15,490 --> 00:13:18,970 we have, you know, south Slavic, west Slavic and east Slavic. 112 00:13:18,970 --> 00:13:32,110 so east Slavic is Russian, Ukrainian and Belarus and west Slavic is, let's say, polish, Czech and Slovak, south Slavic, is like a Croatian and Serbian. 113 00:13:32,110 --> 00:13:37,750 and so, it's the kind of relationships that to explain it very, you know, in a fast way, 114 00:13:37,750 --> 00:13:47,140 it's a kind of connexion and difference that we have between, let's say, Spanish and Italian or Italian and French. 115 00:13:47,140 --> 00:13:48,460 it's like it's a same language group. 116 00:13:48,460 --> 00:13:58,270 yes, they share the same source – Latin - they share the vocabulary, the syntactic structure they kind of, like, I’m pretty sure, 117 00:13:58,270 --> 00:14:03,910 if you are Italian native speaker, you probably understand something of French without ever studying in French. 118 00:14:03,910 --> 00:14:11,140 but does it mean that they are identical or it does it mean that, you know, how close? They’re different languages. 119 00:14:11,140 --> 00:14:18,850 and of course, in within linguistics discourse, there is this very famous phrase that language is a dialect with an army. 120 00:14:18,850 --> 00:14:26,020 so, once you have an actual political statehood, you can say my language is different from yours, 121 00:14:26,020 --> 00:14:29,650 although in effect, Croatians and - people are going to hate me for that - 122 00:14:29,650 --> 00:14:40,150 but Croatian and Serbian are one language and now they're different because of course it's a, you know, it's two different political entities. 123 00:14:40,150 --> 00:14:45,580 I would say that Russian and Ukrainian are much more different than Serbian and Croatian. 124 00:14:45,580 --> 00:14:53,750 [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: now you told me that there are some sounds or at least a sound that you know is an accident Ukrainian that Russians don't use? 125 00:14:53,750 --> 00:14:59,110 [OLENA CHERVONIK]: oh, well, we have quite a few of those sounds and letters. 126 00:14:59,110 --> 00:15:07,990 and so, with all this Russian censorship and harassment of Ukrainians, that's been going on for, not just years and decades, but centuries. 127 00:15:07,990 --> 00:15:12,550 one of the ways Russians were really trying to, you know, 128 00:15:12,550 --> 00:15:21,520 to kind of deny Ukrainians their identity is through denial of language, including removing letters from the alphabet. 129 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,990 so, during the soviet time, we had a couple of letters that were erased. 130 00:15:25,990 --> 00:15:36,250 and so, with the independence in 1991, one of the first decrees that our parliament did is to reintroduce the letters. 131 00:15:36,250 --> 00:15:44,440 and now with this ongoing war that we have - so the Russian soldiers - 132 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:51,160 there is a common language that the enemy and us are speaking, so Russian soldiers moving, they can communicate. 133 00:15:51,160 --> 00:16:01,090 however, we speak a slightly different Russian and Russians cannot pronounce certain sounds. 134 00:16:01,090 --> 00:16:09,700 and so now we have something of a shibboleth. There are there are certain letter, there certain words, that you can ask, 135 00:16:09,700 --> 00:16:20,590 like, if you're not sure of what it is, you can ask the person ‘can you say [INAUDIBLE] or can you say [INAUDIBLE]’ If they can't, it’s like ‘oh, you're Russian?’ 136 00:16:20,590 --> 00:16:31,390 [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: Yeah, now, you might say the soviet homogenisation of language is that - I really have only just become aware of this - 137 00:16:31,390 --> 00:16:38,890 a consequence of the invasion was the shift from Kiev to Kyiv, from ‘the Ukraine’ to Ukraine. 138 00:16:38,890 --> 00:16:45,380 Tell me a bit about that. How was that indeed, a Russianisation of Ukrainian words? 139 00:16:45,380 --> 00:16:53,960 [OLENA CHERVONIK]: Kyiv, yes. Because we don’t say ‘Kiev’ we say ‘Kyiv’. it's a slightly different sound. But then ‘the Ukraine’ is, of course, you know, 140 00:16:53,960 --> 00:17:03,080 this is not within the Slavic linguistics and it's more English. 141 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:15,290 And the thing is, in English, you use the definite article when you are talking about federation as opposed to an independent state. 142 00:17:15,290 --> 00:17:22,970 So, you don't say ‘the France’ or ‘the Germany’, but you say the EU, the United States, 143 00:17:22,970 --> 00:17:28,130 because it's a federation, it's a conglomeration of smaller countries. 144 00:17:28,130 --> 00:17:35,220 and so, the Ukraine was precisely the linguistic marker of colonial dependence. 145 00:17:35,220 --> 00:17:39,590 it was supposedly not an independent state or just part of. 146 00:17:39,590 --> 00:17:44,990 and that's why there was an article. But it was actually removed within English. 147 00:17:44,990 --> 00:17:55,910 I know this because I worked for the Kyiv Post in mid 2000s, which is the English-speaking newspaper in Kyiv. 148 00:17:55,910 --> 00:18:08,930 and so, the article was removed officially from like old style or style guides like Associated Press and a couple of other, Reuters, 149 00:18:08,930 --> 00:18:16,130 for example, because they would spread it to all the journalists saying, ‘OK, we're not writing ‘the Ukraine’ anymore’ 150 00:18:16,130 --> 00:18:21,680 it's incorrect. So, it's been a while, it's just that, you know, some people, 151 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:29,480 on occasion [INAUDIBLE], I suppose. [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: I mean, I’ve always said ‘the Ukraine’ without really realising that there had been a change. 152 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:35,510 Let's just talk about 1991 because, you know, remarkably, you lived through this moment of independence. 153 00:18:35,510 --> 00:18:44,300 I mean, what was it like to be a young person? I guess a student at that time, you know, in the very moment of a country’s coming into being. 154 00:18:44,300 --> 00:18:50,710 [OLENA CHERVONIK]: yeah. well, first of all, I was 13. 155 00:18:50,710 --> 00:18:56,740 so, I think I will. I mean, I’m pretty sure I was not aware of what was happening at all. 156 00:18:56,740 --> 00:19:00,610 and I was not a really politically inserted into all of this. 157 00:19:00,610 --> 00:19:03,550 and another thing is maybe it's worth mentioning. 158 00:19:03,550 --> 00:19:12,700 So, I was born in Ukraine, but then my parents moved to Tuva, which is called the autonomous Republic of Tuva, 159 00:19:12,700 --> 00:19:21,280 that is how the locals pronounce it. It's in central Asia. Tuvans actually claim that they have the centre of Asia. 160 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:29,950 they have a monument there, and it's kind of border is bordering with Mongolia and Russia and I think part of china. 161 00:19:29,950 --> 00:19:34,120 and so, I spent my first 10 years of my life, 162 00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:38,920 I was there, maybe a little more. and of course, we were all speaking Russian. 163 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:43,240 there we were all Russian. Because we were very different from Tuvans, 164 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:51,370 and it wouldn't matter that you came from Ukraine and we came back to Ukraine because 165 00:19:51,370 --> 00:19:57,490 it was obvious that the Soviet Union was probably just going to disintegrate. 166 00:19:57,490 --> 00:20:03,520 if you remember at the time, there were a lot of conflicts arising. 167 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:08,650 so, there was there was a huge war between Armenia and Azerbaijan, 168 00:20:08,650 --> 00:20:15,820 and everyone was afraid that it's going to flare up in, you know, in other parts of the country. 169 00:20:15,820 --> 00:20:28,030 and then also Tuvans did not want to be part of the Russian federation that they were annexed by Russia in 1944. 170 00:20:28,030 --> 00:20:31,210 and so, it's always been kind of, there's always been tension there. 171 00:20:31,210 --> 00:20:39,490 we lived under curfew, for example, and so my parents decided it's like time to move and go back home. 172 00:20:39,490 --> 00:20:44,800 and we arrived to Ukraine right before independence, basically. 173 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:55,990 but again, I was too small to understand what was happening, and I was more concerned about how to get to, I really wanted to study English. 174 00:20:55,990 --> 00:21:04,720 there was no, not that many resources. we're talking about the time pre-internet, basically. 175 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:09,610 and so, you could only read something that was published in the Soviet Union, 176 00:21:09,610 --> 00:21:16,450 which was a lot of those books being ridiculous, censored, like you couldn't get the sense of real language. 177 00:21:16,450 --> 00:21:23,440 and I don't know where I got this idea. like, I somehow knew that, you know, there are other languages. 178 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:30,580 English is there. so, I really wanted to study English. I was really trying to figure out where to go. 179 00:21:30,580 --> 00:21:40,930 and I entered the key linguistics university to study the languages, English and French, and also the theory of literature. 180 00:21:40,930 --> 00:21:49,240 and I have to say this was the moment - so it was already independent Ukraine as we were talking before with you - 181 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:57,490 I never had a soviet passport because I came of age when I was 16 and was already independent Ukraine. 182 00:21:57,490 --> 00:22:04,690 You get a passport at the age of 16. [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: You get an internal passport for identification purposes? 183 00:22:04,690 --> 00:22:07,990 [OLENA CHERVONIK]: Yeah, and that's another thing that a lot of people don't - 184 00:22:07,990 --> 00:22:12,760 it's like, internal passport, external? What are you talking about? this is also a soviet legacy. 185 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,390 no one could travel in that country. it was not possible. 186 00:22:16,390 --> 00:22:25,240 you wouldn't have documents to go outside or you would, but you would have to apply to go through secret service, blah blah blah. 187 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:29,950 So, there was no, there are no documents for international travel. 188 00:22:29,950 --> 00:22:38,530 There are just documents for internal use. but when the independent came, obviously you said you could travel. 189 00:22:38,530 --> 00:22:43,150 and so, they said, ok, let's have external passports. 190 00:22:43,150 --> 00:22:49,570 so, we basically have until today we have two passports, two actual documents. 191 00:22:49,570 --> 00:23:00,340 yeah, I’ve never had the soviet one. so, but I went to a linguistics university already with an independent Ukraine and studied languages. 192 00:23:00,340 --> 00:23:11,020 and, you know, all this idea. so, within the Soviet Union, this Russian Ukrainian binary construction was definitely very hierarchical. 193 00:23:11,020 --> 00:23:15,890 Russian was the language of culture, of sophistication, of higher education. 194 00:23:15,890 --> 00:23:22,840 you wouldn't be able to study in a university using Ukrainian, you know, Ukrainian was only for home use. 195 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:30,250 and it was, there was a lot of kind of condescending attitude to people who would speak Ukrainian because it was, 196 00:23:30,250 --> 00:23:37,660 you know, it's a language of a rural area, presumably not a language of science. 197 00:23:37,660 --> 00:23:40,360 Russians were constantly telling us, you can't, you know, 198 00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:46,960 you can’t study physics and chemistry and maths in Ukrainian because you guys just don't even have the vocabulary, you know? 199 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,700 and then I started doing, 200 00:23:49,700 --> 00:23:58,130 linguistics theory of languages and, you know, I realise at some point the oldest binary is nonsensical. 201 00:23:58,130 --> 00:24:04,130 there are no better or worse languages. from the linguistics point of view, it just doesn't make sense. 202 00:24:04,130 --> 00:24:12,860 you know, languages evolve. they have different spheres of what, but like, there is no really hierarchy in that. 203 00:24:12,860 --> 00:24:15,500 and that's when I started thinking, ok, what is going on here? 204 00:24:15,500 --> 00:24:22,050 like, why do we have these two languages in the kind of, you know, that kind of relationships? 205 00:24:22,050 --> 00:24:28,760 and I actually started reading the history of Ukrainian language and got into this whole 206 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:35,630 history of national struggle national building through that, through that door. 207 00:24:35,630 --> 00:24:41,890 and there is a running joke that if you want to understand 208 00:24:41,890 --> 00:24:48,200 the history of Ukrainian, the struggle for independence. just read the history of Ukrainian language. 209 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:53,210 it's all. they're all literature, you know? yeah, yeah. 210 00:24:53,210 --> 00:25:00,890 [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: after you studied linguistics for a while, you studied in the united states - 211 00:25:00,890 --> 00:25:05,150 this is your life - but this is kind of the we’re structuring the first part of this conversation. 212 00:25:05,150 --> 00:25:15,530 but by 2004, you were back in Ukraine and therefore you were there during the orange revolution again, another sort of independence moment. 213 00:25:15,530 --> 00:25:21,200 but by this point, you are a little older and presumably far more self-consciously aware of it. 214 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:26,490 what was that experience like and was? There an antagonism between Russia and Ukraine? 215 00:25:26,490 --> 00:25:40,800 was that at the heart of it? [OLENA CHERVONIK]: So, I was there, I was working for the Kyiv post, which at the time was, well, 216 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:49,770 it was the only English language newspaper and it was the most independent because the rest of the press in the country was censored. 217 00:25:49,770 --> 00:26:01,170 but they couldn't censor the Kyiv post because it was all American and Canadian editorial board established by an American. 218 00:26:01,170 --> 00:26:08,490 and also, you know, we were completely independent in that way. and so, we could report whatever we wanted. 219 00:26:08,490 --> 00:26:15,360 we were harassed all the time. [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: Can I just ask: was it only published in English or was it 220 00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:20,640 published in Ukrainian? [OLENA CHERVONIK]: No, only in English. 221 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:22,790 and then I also worked for the Kyiv-Mohyla Academy. 222 00:26:22,790 --> 00:26:32,460 I was teaching English, and maybe I should talk about this academy a little bit, 223 00:26:32,460 --> 00:26:37,980 well, let me let me answer the question about this Russian-Ukrainian, this whole - 224 00:26:37,980 --> 00:26:42,630 I do not think that the opposition between Russian speaking, 225 00:26:42,630 --> 00:26:48,780 Ukrainian speaking, was there during the first revolution because the, 226 00:26:48,780 --> 00:26:55,000 you know, because Ukrainians won the revolution basically and the Russian candidate at the time, 227 00:26:55,000 --> 00:27:03,390 well, the candidate at the time was trying to usurp the power. Yanukovych was actually backed up by Russia. 228 00:27:03,390 --> 00:27:09,570 so, it's still the same Yanukovych, 2004 and 2013, is the same person. 229 00:27:09,570 --> 00:27:15,000 [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: let's just clarify because it is the complex politics. He is Ukrainian, but he was backed by - 230 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,700 [OLENA CHERVONIK]: Yeah, he's Ukrainian. 231 00:27:18,700 --> 00:27:26,190 he was backed up by Russia. so, you know, Ukraine got independence, but Russia never left us alone. 232 00:27:26,190 --> 00:27:38,370 and there was constantly this kind of infiltration of both country's political and cultural and whatnot sphere, trying to bring Ukraine back. 233 00:27:38,370 --> 00:27:49,350 and so, one of the ways Russians were trying to do this is to, you know, to establish their own candidate like their own person, basically. 234 00:27:49,350 --> 00:27:59,040 and so. that failed, Yanukovych got well, he was ousted at the time, but he lost. 235 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,080 and only after that moment, 236 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:13,020 we started being bombarded by this propagandistic discourse about two Ukraine’s. We actually know who introduced - 237 00:28:13,020 --> 00:28:19,380 [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: The two Ukraine’s: those who were in effect native Russian speakers and those who were not. 238 00:28:19,380 --> 00:28:21,180 [OLENA CHERVONIK]: Yes. 239 00:28:21,180 --> 00:28:32,010 it was like, you know, a particular kind of a sabotage message that certain people created and started circulating really everywhere. 240 00:28:32,010 --> 00:28:34,680 you know, on tv and everywhere. 241 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:43,830 and so, it was supposedly about two Ukraine’s: Russian speaking, Ukrainian speaking, in east and west and we are so different and we are fighting. 242 00:28:43,830 --> 00:28:53,940 [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: And did you feel that, you know, living in Kyiv? I mean, was that something you felt on a daily basis or was this sort of, I don't know, 243 00:28:53,940 --> 00:29:00,120 something the chattering classes were talking about, but ordinary people were somewhat bemused by it? 244 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:05,820 [OLENA CHERVONIK]: I mean, it was it was really a propagandistic construction. 245 00:29:05,820 --> 00:29:11,010 I did not experience that. I mean, yes, we had Russian speakers. 246 00:29:11,010 --> 00:29:17,280 yes, there was a tension about trying to elevate Ukrainian, 247 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:23,130 to a certain status that it would become a language of education and science and culture. 248 00:29:23,130 --> 00:29:30,930 and there was the opposition, but not in terms of, like – [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: So, by this time, Ukrainian was the national language had been declared the national language, 249 00:29:30,930 --> 00:29:38,130 and so, there's some effort to flip the binary and make Ukrainian the dominant language? 250 00:29:38,130 --> 00:29:44,910 [OLENA CHERVONIK]: Well, it's been declared. but like really this this transition from Russian being the main language, to Ukrainian 251 00:29:44,910 --> 00:29:48,870 being the main language - it's a transition. 252 00:29:48,870 --> 00:29:53,970 it's like years and years in the making because we're talking about people switching into a different language. 253 00:29:53,970 --> 00:30:00,210 it's not easy. like my parents until today speak Russian. They don't support Russia in the least, 254 00:30:00,210 --> 00:30:05,700 but you can't just, you know, when you are 70, you can’t just start speaking a language. 255 00:30:05,700 --> 00:30:09,390 you didn't grow up speaking, you know, it's difficult. 256 00:30:09,390 --> 00:30:12,720 so, it's kind of a transitional moment. 257 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:20,830 and so yes, I was older when it was orange revolution and kind of more aware and I was working for the Kyiv Mohyla Academy. 258 00:30:20,830 --> 00:30:29,070 it's an it is an extremely important, very symbolic institution in Ukraine because the academy was, 259 00:30:29,070 --> 00:30:35,280 I mean, the contemporary version of it was really established 1991. 260 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:46,220 but it's the contemporary University claims that it’s an heir, it's a continuation of 261 00:30:46,220 --> 00:30:53,090 the academy that was the original one that was established in 1632 262 00:30:53,090 --> 00:30:58,220 and it exists from 1632 until 1817. 263 00:30:58,220 --> 00:31:09,980 We had a University in Kyiv. It was the first University on that territory, eastern Slavic territory. 264 00:31:09,980 --> 00:31:12,920 just to give you some facts: 265 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:26,710 The Moscow University – Russian, iconic, and first, was established in 1755 by Lomosov, who in 1735 studied in Kyiv Mohyla Academy. 266 00:31:26,710 --> 00:31:35,810 So, this is where the learning starts from - on our territory. 267 00:31:35,810 --> 00:31:53,790 and the academy was really about, you know, banned by the Russian Tsar in 1917 because it was too dangerous. 268 00:31:53,790 --> 00:31:59,410 and so, it was kind of restarted resurrected in 1991, and it was. 269 00:31:59,410 --> 00:32:12,270 and of course, it was extremely pro-Ukrainian and I worked at the academy when this 270 00:32:12,270 --> 00:32:21,540 whole tension between Yanukovych and Yushchenko started and it became apparent that Yanukovych is trying to, 271 00:32:21,540 --> 00:32:27,060 you know, to steal the election. So, the first people who went on Maidan were students of 272 00:32:27,060 --> 00:32:35,140 Kyiv-Mohyla Academy and I went there. so, I can say that I was the first one there. 273 00:32:35,140 --> 00:32:38,140 it was actually not clear what's going to happen. 274 00:32:38,140 --> 00:32:43,510 you know, it was at that moment, I wouldn't say it was like dangerous, dangerous, but it was the beginning. 275 00:32:43,510 --> 00:32:47,400 but there is something about Ukrainian revolutions. 276 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:54,600 students are the first one to go, and usually what happens is that a student go, militia beats them up. 277 00:32:54,600 --> 00:33:03,540 the rest of the country says ‘you cannot do this to our children’ and then the rest of the country rises, and it's exactly what happened in 2004. 278 00:33:03,540 --> 00:33:10,320 and it's exactly what happened in 2013. so, I participated a little bit. 279 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:18,630 I mostly photographed and I do still have an analogue camera, 280 00:33:18,630 --> 00:33:26,850 and so, I still have rolls somewhere, probably in the US, of the Orange Revolution. 281 00:33:26,850 --> 00:33:31,320 [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: If you write your autobiography, it's going to be a wonderful read. 282 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:35,520 Now, because of our current disciplinary interest, 283 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:41,280 at what point - well, I think you've told me this before - but at a certain point you became interested in art history, 284 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:49,860 possibly because of your experience in the united states. but at what point did you become aware of the Ukrainian art or history of Ukrainian art? 285 00:33:49,860 --> 00:33:57,840 when did you first see an exhibition or flip through a book which claimed to be a Ukrainian history of Ukrainian art? 286 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:06,570 [OLENA CHERVONIK]: Yeah, after the Orange Revolution, I went to the US and I lived and studied there. 287 00:34:06,570 --> 00:34:12,240 and that's when I started taking classes in art history kind of almost by accident. 288 00:34:12,240 --> 00:34:19,020 and then just as it happens to all of us, you just start taking an elective and then you switch. 289 00:34:19,020 --> 00:34:29,680 But in 2011, I was in Ukraine in august, and that was the, you know, 20 years of independence. 290 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:35,740 and there was a very large exhibition in Kyiv of Ukrainian art, 291 00:34:35,740 --> 00:34:42,340 contemporary Ukrainian art, and that was the first time I ever saw anything of Ukrainian art. 292 00:34:42,340 --> 00:34:49,600 and it was mind blowing, like I was really, really impressed to realise I knew nothing about my own culture. 293 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:50,740 [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: That's what interests me. 294 00:34:50,740 --> 00:34:57,970 Is that because it was the first time had been an attempt at such an exhibition or you just haven't tuned in before that? 295 00:34:57,970 --> 00:35:03,610 [OLENA CHERVONIK]: I mean, frankly, because I didn't tune in and partly because, yeah, 296 00:35:03,610 --> 00:35:10,510 there was nothing of that scale before, but I was actually thinking, 297 00:35:10,510 --> 00:35:14,230 like, if we start talking about Ukrainian art, how on earth do I present this? 298 00:35:14,230 --> 00:35:25,510 Because it's a huge topic. and so, I guess something to mention in the Soviet Union, that, whatever it was like, Russia permitted Ukraine 299 00:35:25,510 --> 00:35:33,400 certain agency, you know, allowing Ukraine to have certain agency. But in terms of art, Ukraine could only have 300 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:43,970 ethnographic or folk art. So, this is how you could express yourself, ethnographically, because you are like a rural, little people, 301 00:35:43,970 --> 00:35:50,480 a little dim-witted. You're not modernised, you cannot have anything of value. 302 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:58,060 and it was just so ingrained, you know, so everything was kind of folkish. 303 00:35:58,060 --> 00:36:06,020 It's not something that I was interested in, you know, a lot of young people - 304 00:36:06,020 --> 00:36:13,730 it just doesn't speak to youth culture, directly. We always wanted to, 305 00:36:13,730 --> 00:36:22,730 always were looking to the west and interested in America, and I think that was kind of my path, 306 00:36:22,730 --> 00:36:29,990 you know? So, it's not because other types of Ukrainian art didn't exist, it’s because they were constantly, 307 00:36:29,990 --> 00:36:35,360 you know, those types, and that kind of art was censored, was erased. 308 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:40,430 people were actually - by censored - I mean, people were killed. 309 00:36:40,430 --> 00:36:48,080 Just to give you an example: when the Soviet Union started, 310 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:54,020 so, we did have, as you mentioned, we did have three years of independence. 311 00:36:54,020 --> 00:37:02,630 there was a national Ukrainian people's republic and at the time, 312 00:37:02,630 --> 00:37:12,260 those three years, a lot of institutions were actually founded. The Ukrainian Academy of Science, the Ukrainian Art Academy. 313 00:37:12,260 --> 00:37:21,620 You know, there was really a moment of institution building and of course, a moment of kind of flourishing of the arts. 314 00:37:21,620 --> 00:37:26,420 And with the Soviet Union, Lenin did an interesting thing. 315 00:37:26,420 --> 00:37:34,270 He realised at some point that - in order to build this cohesion - he should be kind of less aggressive maybe. 316 00:37:34,270 --> 00:37:42,350 And so, there are a couple of years, then he introduced this economic liberalisation. 317 00:37:42,350 --> 00:37:48,110 He allowed private, you know, private ownership and stuff like this. 318 00:37:48,110 --> 00:37:52,280 but then also he introduced the policy of nationalisation, 319 00:37:52,280 --> 00:38:01,910 meaning that he would allow people of whatever ethnicities of those Soviet republics to exercise their culture. 320 00:38:01,910 --> 00:38:07,850 So, we had for a brief moment what's called now Executed Renaissance. 321 00:38:07,850 --> 00:38:14,930 we had amazing, amazing cultural revival in terms of, you know, literature and arts and music and all of that. 322 00:38:14,930 --> 00:38:19,820 it all was destroyed within the year. 323 00:38:19,820 --> 00:38:24,530 basically, there was this Great Purge, 1937-1938, 324 00:38:24,530 --> 00:38:35,930 when the Soviets killed around 300 Ukrainian intellectuals. Some of those intellectuals died on the same day. 325 00:38:35,930 --> 00:38:39,320 So 3rd of November, it's when they killed all of our poets, 326 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:44,480 all of our writers, all of our musicians. 327 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:53,270 I mean, it's insane. They all have the same death, you know, death date. 328 00:38:53,270 --> 00:38:59,810 And after that, we had another moment of revival, 329 00:38:59,810 --> 00:39:05,510 a brief revival in the 60s. 330 00:39:05,510 --> 00:39:09,770 It was a liberalisation in the Soviet Union in general, and of course in Ukraine. 331 00:39:09,770 --> 00:39:17,840 and a lot of Ukrainians started to say, ok, now it's the moment to exercise language and literature and stuff. 332 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:22,430 and those are the people who were really cosmopolitan. 333 00:39:22,430 --> 00:39:30,580 They were looking, like, they were not doing art in terms of folk, 334 00:39:30,580 --> 00:39:36,520 ethnographic folk art. [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: So, what were they? I mean, what is Ukrainian about Ukrainian art? 335 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:42,260 [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: How would one recognise it? [OLENA CHERVONIK]: Oh, that's a difficult question, but - 336 00:39:42,260 --> 00:39:46,790 [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: Well, here's the real question: if I went to that exhibition with you, 337 00:39:46,790 --> 00:39:52,370 would you be able to say to me, oh, this is what's distinctive, it's not Russian. this artist is doing this. 338 00:39:52,370 --> 00:39:56,060 they're looking at a specific landscape or they're through, you know, 339 00:39:56,060 --> 00:40:01,390 through the iconography, they're conjuring a particular Ukrainian traditional history. 340 00:40:01,390 --> 00:40:05,590 [OLENA CHERVONIK]: You know, I don't really think that art works like this, I mean, of course, you can say, ok, 341 00:40:05,590 --> 00:40:11,140 there's the Ukrainian landscape or there is some kind of decorative moment 342 00:40:11,140 --> 00:40:16,660 or decorative elements that probably come from Ukrainians embroidered shirt. 343 00:40:16,660 --> 00:40:26,200 But I don't think any kind of art, when we say it's American, it's British, it's not because of iconography of something, 344 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:33,310 I think it's because of the novelty of looking at the world in a different way. 345 00:40:33,310 --> 00:40:40,820 and then retrospectively we say: ‘that that could only happen in that culture’ which is not true. 346 00:40:40,820 --> 00:40:44,240 it's just the new way of doing stuff. 347 00:40:44,240 --> 00:40:54,680 [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: But, I guess what I’m wondering is as a consequence, first of the 1991 independence and then of this 20-year anniversary, 348 00:40:54,680 --> 00:41:02,120 are people making different claims art. In other words, that people saying, finally, we have a history of Ukrainian art? 349 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:07,580 well, finally, we have a Ukrainian history. finally, we have a book devoted to Ukrainian literature. 350 00:41:07,580 --> 00:41:12,620 I mean, is there a kind of incipient nationalism that necessarily comes with independence? 351 00:41:12,620 --> 00:41:23,540 [OLENA CHERVONIK]: Well, I would say that the national consciousness and the sense of national identity is definitely - 352 00:41:23,540 --> 00:41:29,930 it didn't start with independence. Ukrainians have, we've had it, for years and centuries. 353 00:41:29,930 --> 00:41:41,630 and in terms of Ukrainian art, we actually have a publication that's called the History of Ukrainian Art that was created in 1967-1970. 354 00:41:41,630 --> 00:41:44,690 Do I have time to talk about this? 355 00:41:44,690 --> 00:41:54,590 Because it's a fascinating story. It’s a detective story of how that publication appeared. 356 00:41:54,590 --> 00:42:02,990 So, a group of people in the Ukrainian Academy of Science, in 1953, it's like, Stalin dies and immediately 357 00:42:02,990 --> 00:42:07,130 some people say ‘Oh, wow, let's write Ukraine history of Ukrainian Art’ 358 00:42:07,130 --> 00:42:14,540 But, the real one, meaning, not Ukrainian folk art and not a history of embroidered shirts, 359 00:42:14,540 --> 00:42:20,450 but the history of the material culture of our land, 360 00:42:20,450 --> 00:42:25,860 at whatever, you know, whatever historical period, 361 00:42:25,860 --> 00:42:29,540 of people who lived in that land. So, they actually started this. 362 00:42:29,540 --> 00:42:33,680 By the way, this history has been digitised and you can actually access it. 363 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:42,050 So, they start the first volume with, you know, with Trypillia(?), with [INAUDIBLE], with Greeks, 364 00:42:42,050 --> 00:42:51,050 because we have Greek settlements in Crimea, in the south of Ukraine, 365 00:42:51,050 --> 00:42:57,830 not Greek artefacts that entered in that part of the world, by trade or by, 366 00:42:57,830 --> 00:43:05,780 you know, by military expansion, or something, but by Greeks establishing cities and living there. 367 00:43:05,780 --> 00:43:11,750 and so, we have we have Greek artefacts originating from our country, from our land. 368 00:43:11,750 --> 00:43:15,240 Is this Ukrainian art? It's Ukrainian art. 369 00:43:15,240 --> 00:43:21,690 and so, this is what this publication did. the issue, of course, was outrageous for Moscow. 370 00:43:21,690 --> 00:43:32,760 so, when those scholars started saying ‘this is our plan, Moscow’ and they had to get an approval. 371 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:39,510 Moscow said ‘History of Ukrainian what? there is no such object of study’, 372 00:43:39,510 --> 00:43:44,300 ‘you can’t write a history of a non-existent entity’, 373 00:43:44,300 --> 00:43:51,920 you know, ‘you need to destroy the manuscript’. So those people started hiding the manuscript and trying to rewrite it. 374 00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:57,800 They were only able to start publishing [INAUDIBLE] 375 00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:04,190 So, we're talking about almost 10 years, not 10, 12 years of lag. 376 00:44:04,190 --> 00:44:09,680 So, when they publish the first volume, Moscow started saying, ‘well, ok, you have a History of Art’ 377 00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:15,980 ‘but why is this so long? Two volumes are enough. What are you going to talk about in six volumes?’ 378 00:44:15,980 --> 00:44:25,490 ‘there is no object of study’. So, they were constantly denying, you know, this publication because it was not just about embroidered shirts. 379 00:44:25,490 --> 00:44:30,710 and so, I would say, this is like, this is Ukrainian history, Greek heritage. 380 00:44:30,710 --> 00:44:37,100 this is actually a good point to explain what Putin is doing and why he is so fixated on Ukraine, 381 00:44:37,100 --> 00:44:42,500 because a lot of people ask him, does he need more land? 382 00:44:42,500 --> 00:44:46,700 Russia is a huge country. Siberia is huge. 383 00:44:46,700 --> 00:44:51,860 they can’t manage their own resources. Why would you need more, more land, more resources? 384 00:44:51,860 --> 00:44:57,750 no, he's after history. because Ukraine is in effect, is kind of an anchor. 385 00:44:57,750 --> 00:45:05,510 our territory is kind of an anchor to, you know, all of those ancient civilisations to the Greeks, the Romans, the Venetians, 386 00:45:05,510 --> 00:45:13,920 they were all there, they lived there to [INAUDIBLE], which again, Moscow has a very kind of tenuous relation, 387 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:28,320 like, you know, it's arguable how much of Kyiv’s heritage is actually in Moscow, you know, exported into Moscow. 388 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:36,780 If you cut this off, you kind of have to admit that Russia is really in early modern formation. 389 00:45:36,780 --> 00:45:42,930 and Putin wants it to be ancient, because since 18th century Russia is building 390 00:45:42,930 --> 00:45:48,750 the doctrine of Russia as the third Rome. They actually have texts 391 00:45:48,750 --> 00:45:58,770 that say Russia is the third Rome. Well, how do you justify yourself as some kind of Rome? 392 00:45:58,770 --> 00:46:03,420 so, it is a battle for history, for material culture. 393 00:46:03,420 --> 00:46:11,400 but what's interesting is that it's kind of a discursive battle because Putin wants to connect Russia to Kyivan Rus’ and at the same time, 394 00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:19,560 what he's doing right now, he's actually bombing Chernihiv. Kiev and Chernihiv are both ancient cities. 395 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:27,540 And we only have just a couple of Kyivan Rus’ churches in the country and two of them are Chernihiv. Very important churches. 396 00:46:27,540 --> 00:46:30,780 He's in the centre and he's bombing the centre. 397 00:46:30,780 --> 00:46:40,090 and so, he's, you know, he's discursively connecting himself to Kyivan Rus', but he's trying to, you know, to destroy its material culture. 398 00:46:40,090 --> 00:46:46,380 yeah. I think it's an interesting point to ponder, because 399 00:46:46,380 --> 00:46:53,610 I personally think that he is afraid of material culture of that period because, 400 00:46:53,610 --> 00:46:57,390 artefacts testify in a different way. you can bend words, 401 00:46:57,390 --> 00:47:01,360 you can create whatever mythological construction with words. 402 00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:05,730 but once you have an artefact, you can date it, it has stylistic features. 403 00:47:05,730 --> 00:47:11,550 you know, it starts telling you something else that you can actually, you can't really negotiate. 404 00:47:11,550 --> 00:47:16,650 and so, Putin wants to be part of Kievan Rus’, 405 00:47:16,650 --> 00:47:26,640 but he's afraid that once you start looking at all of this, everyone is like: ‘it’s in Ukraine, you can’t have it, it's in Ukraine’ 406 00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:31,650 [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: so, let me just ask you just another point in your own story. 407 00:47:31,650 --> 00:47:36,960 just because I think it will give some people insights into what is going on right now, 408 00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:41,280 which is when you were working at an art centre in the Crimea in 2014, 409 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:49,710 not Crimea, the Donetsk. could you perhaps quickly tell us the story of what happened to that art centre? 410 00:47:49,710 --> 00:47:59,400 [OLENA CHERVONIK]: well, so yes, we it was a private initiative of transforming a defunct soviet factory into an art centre. Well, not an art centre, 411 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:11,730 we called ourselves a platform for cultural initiatives. and so, we did all sorts of stuff from education about ecology, small crafts and also arts. 412 00:48:11,730 --> 00:48:17,430 I worked as a curator of Ukrainian art. 413 00:48:17,430 --> 00:48:23,400 so, I was there when this whole annexation started. 414 00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:31,230 I went to Donetsk in march 2014, and that's when Russians started bombing the airport. 415 00:48:31,230 --> 00:48:36,360 we had a huge battle for the airport that was totally destroyed. 416 00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:44,310 and so, on June 9th, 2014, we were seized by the Russian battalion. 417 00:48:44,310 --> 00:48:50,430 They came to our centre. 418 00:48:50,430 --> 00:49:01,360 they called themselves Battalion East, Battalion Vostok. The soldiers were mostly Chechen, not Russians, 419 00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:08,920 there were a couple of Russians who were very obviously in a higher position, 420 00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:13,930 they were all in military fatigues, but they didn't have an insignia. 421 00:49:13,930 --> 00:49:18,370 so, you couldn't say, ‘oh, this is this army, and that's the rank’ 422 00:49:18,370 --> 00:49:25,390 but very obviously, those higher officials were speaking very distant Russian. As Chechen, 423 00:49:25,390 --> 00:49:31,060 some of them couldn't even speak Russian that well, you know, they're just mercenaries. 424 00:49:31,060 --> 00:49:37,390 and so, they basically kicked us out. but in a very polite way, and it's like, ‘you should go’ 425 00:49:37,390 --> 00:49:46,660 and of course, you don't argue with a guy with a Kalashnikov. and we managed to relocate some of our stuff, but some of our collection. 426 00:49:46,660 --> 00:49:54,670 but most of it was lost. And it was lost because, our point was, most of our collection, 427 00:49:54,670 --> 00:50:03,220 most of the stuff that we were doing there was site specific, meaning that artists created installations that were kind of embedded. 428 00:50:03,220 --> 00:50:11,230 in the territory, and you couldn't take it away. We worked with Ukrainian artists, but we also worked with [INAUDIBLE], 429 00:50:11,230 --> 00:50:21,880 He was the first artist who came. We worked with Daniel Buren, with Kader Attia and those people actually created those site-specific installations. 430 00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:33,110 Daniel Buren did this amazing stuff with different coloured glass, almost like stained glass of a medieval cathedral. 431 00:50:33,110 --> 00:50:43,000 I mean, it was all beautiful. so, it was lost. and ever since, Russia actually turned our art centre into a concentration camp, 432 00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:47,920 and when I say concentration camp, you know, it's not for kind of a sentimental effect. 433 00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:51,580 it's a prison where they torture people. it's all documented. 434 00:50:51,580 --> 00:50:58,660 we have some people who were there who stayed in that prison for a year and then they were exchanged. 435 00:50:58,660 --> 00:51:06,280 and so, they actually, you know, as witnesses, they actually speak about all these kinds of inhuman things happening in there. 436 00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:18,130 and we, of course, filed all sorts of lawsuits against, you know, against the seizure to several international courts. 437 00:51:18,130 --> 00:51:27,400 So, the court of the human rights in Strasbourg, but also, I think, to the criminal court in the Hague. 438 00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:35,500 and so, this is just now that this whole, you know, what Russia has been doing to Ukraine. 439 00:51:35,500 --> 00:51:44,500 first of all, it's escalated to unprecedented level, and this is now that we have enough evidence for all these eight years. 440 00:51:44,500 --> 00:51:49,240 and this is another thing I want to emphasise. the war with Russia didn't start now. 441 00:51:49,240 --> 00:51:53,980 the war with Russia started in 2014, so we've been at war all this time. 442 00:51:53,980 --> 00:52:06,850 and so, we have enough evidence that we actually think that the, you know, the criminal court in the Hague is going to act upon all this evidence. 443 00:52:06,850 --> 00:52:17,290 [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: A lot of people wouldn't realise that part of your work as an art historian has been to translate the work of others into Ukrainian. 444 00:52:17,290 --> 00:52:24,160 and over the last few years, you've actually translated a number of important texts about photography by John Tag, 445 00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:32,110 Roland Barthes and even myself, into Ukrainian. I have my copy here, my Ukrainian book, 446 00:52:32,110 --> 00:52:38,110 but I’m wondering if maybe you could explain to people listening why you've been so dedicated to that task? 447 00:52:38,110 --> 00:52:43,390 because some of the books are available in Russian and certainly, of course, in English for those that can read English, 448 00:52:43,390 --> 00:52:52,450 but I know you've been very dedicated to the idea that they should come out in Ukrainian, and that might well speak to the current situation a bit. 449 00:52:52,450 --> 00:52:59,540 [OLENA CHERVONIK]: Well, I mean, I am convinced that translation is a political act. 450 00:52:59,540 --> 00:53:06,020 precisely because we have a different culture and different language, we have to have access to, 451 00:53:06,020 --> 00:53:15,000 you know, to international thought via our language, not via Russian. 452 00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:21,320 This kind of access also gives us a way to develop 453 00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:25,760 the discourse, you know, vocabulary, Ukrainian vocabulary, 454 00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:39,320 A Ukrainian way of speaking about things and which in effect changes our consciousness away from Russia. 455 00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:45,350 I truly believe that language does kind of shape the way you see the world. 456 00:53:45,350 --> 00:53:52,670 and I do believe that Ukrainians see the world differently, and that's why I am very insistent on introducing - 457 00:53:52,670 --> 00:53:59,690 I mean, obviously, as an art historian, I have a particular sphere of my own work - 458 00:53:59,690 --> 00:54:10,220 and so, I am very insistent of introducing this theory of photography into, you know, into my own culture. 459 00:54:10,220 --> 00:54:23,650 and so, we were supposed to start publishing Roland Barthes on 24th of February and by publishing, I mean - not publishing - printing. 460 00:54:23,650 --> 00:54:30,500 so, we turned on the printing press, in the morning, and – yes. 461 00:54:30,500 --> 00:54:38,830 [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: So, I think that's an interesting element of what you do as a Ukrainian Art Historian. 462 00:54:38,830 --> 00:54:43,540 So, we've almost come up to our hour, but let me just invite anybody listening, 463 00:54:43,540 --> 00:54:50,210 who might have a question for Olena, 464 00:54:50,210 --> 00:54:57,010 the best thing to do would be to put up a little yellow hand so that we can call on you and you can ask the question yourself. 465 00:54:57,010 --> 00:55:01,180 but if you prefer, you can write a question into the chat function. 471 00:55:31,570 --> 00:55:38,350 [AUDIENCE]: Thanks so much, this was a really wonderful presentation, it was so rich, I learnt so much. 472 00:55:38,350 --> 00:55:49,150 I was particularly interested in your articulation of the meaning that the destruction of historical monuments might have for Putin, 473 00:55:49,150 --> 00:55:56,290 and it made me think of cultural genocide as a political tool in Bosnia in the 1990s. 474 00:55:56,290 --> 00:56:06,290 do you think it can be pushed that far? [OLENA CHERVONIK]: I think that's exactly what's happened, and it's a genocide. 475 00:56:06,290 --> 00:56:11,560 you know, when we talk about Ukrainian culture, 476 00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:14,470 especially within the soviet period, and some people started telling me, 477 00:56:14,470 --> 00:56:23,020 ‘oh, well, you know, within Russia, there are also dissidents, like, people who are also opposing the regime, and there are also going to be persecuted’ 478 00:56:23,020 --> 00:56:24,670 and it's all true. 479 00:56:24,670 --> 00:56:33,610 But in order to be a dissident in those terms, you would have to be politically motivated. 480 00:56:33,610 --> 00:56:43,240 and you would have to be very kind of obviously politically opposed in the state and then producing in some kind of political statement, 481 00:56:43,240 --> 00:56:49,000 Whereas, in Ukraine, it was enough to be Ukrainian to be executed. 482 00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:56,710 A lot of those artists that were killed on November 3rd, 1937 didn't produce any political messages. 483 00:56:56,710 --> 00:57:02,800 they were just speaking in Ukrainian language. They were writing lyrical poetry about love in Ukrainian language. 484 00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:04,990 and I think that's an, you know, 485 00:57:04,990 --> 00:57:12,820 that's an ethnic genocide because you are killed for the fact that you are of a particular ethnicity. 486 00:57:12,820 --> 00:57:22,140 Well, ethnicity or nationality. 487 00:57:22,140 --> 00:57:27,660 [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: Does anybody else have any questions or like to follow up? 488 00:57:27,660 --> 00:57:40,090 If somebody has a question, please feel free to speak up and ask it. 489 00:57:40,090 --> 00:57:51,720 [OLENA CHERVONIK]: It’s a heavy topic, everyone needs time to digest it. 490 00:57:51,720 --> 00:58:01,810 [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: I think one of the things that for me comes out of this conversation, 491 00:58:01,810 --> 00:58:05,770 one of the frustrations, in a way of this conversation, is all of us are 492 00:58:05,770 --> 00:58:10,270 witnessing this invasion and the destruction and death that follows in its wake, 493 00:58:10,270 --> 00:58:13,780 and we're all wondering, ‘well, what can we do?’ I mean, here we are. 494 00:58:13,780 --> 00:58:23,920 but I think one of the reasons I wanted to talk to Olena was to focus on those things that one can do, in one's own practise, in one's own life. 495 00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:27,850 One can write against tyranny. One can write history. 496 00:58:27,850 --> 00:58:36,490 one can speak truth. one can you know, I don't know, articulate the stories that enable people rather than suppress people. 497 00:58:36,490 --> 00:58:42,460 And that is what certainly people in our profession, here at Oxford, are trying to do every day. 498 00:58:42,460 --> 00:58:49,060 and I think it's important for us to cling to the belief that, that is in fact, an effective politics of the kind. 499 00:58:49,060 --> 00:58:55,330 It’s not the same as firing a gun or defending a church, but long-term history, 500 00:58:55,330 --> 00:59:01,330 writing and the doing of history, the writing of literature, the composing and playing of music. 501 00:59:01,330 --> 00:59:10,910 these things are important, and they must be seen as important and they must be seen as contributing, as I say to, you know, actions against tyranny. 502 00:59:10,910 --> 00:59:15,160 so, I am hoping that people listening today have come away, 503 00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:23,650 both with a more nuanced understanding of what it is to be Ukrainian and the situation that Ukraine finds itself in today, 504 00:59:23,650 --> 00:59:34,900 but also, with a renewed faith in the capacity of history and the humanities to engage the issues that matter and make a real contribution. 505 00:59:34,900 --> 00:59:39,490 Olena, was there anything else you'd like to say, anything else you'd like to encourage people to do? 506 00:59:39,490 --> 00:59:42,820 [OLENA CHERVONIK]: Well, you know, 507 00:59:42,820 --> 00:59:54,040 I just looked up that you have a certain links and I should probably give you more because we have quite a few initiatives to donate to the army, 508 00:59:54,040 --> 01:00:03,660 and actually, the volunteer initiatives, kind of NGO initiatives, but also an account established by 509 01:00:03,660 --> 01:00:13,870 the Ukrainian government to donate to the army, to donate to the medics, to the needs of the refugees. 510 01:00:13,870 --> 01:00:23,200 but also, our Ukrainian Cultural Institute started circulating a petition for boycotting Russian culture. 511 01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:32,410 and I just saw, on this museum association website of Britain, the British cultural secretary, I think, 512 01:00:32,410 --> 01:00:40,420 is talking about boycotting Russian culture and removing Russian patronage from all sorts of institutions. 513 01:00:40,420 --> 01:00:47,860 and it looks like Tate is already doing this and a number of 514 01:00:47,860 --> 01:00:57,970 high profile museums in the world and in the US, in Britain as well have been patronised by Russian oligarchs, 515 01:00:57,970 --> 01:01:11,290 you know, they're removing - the British museum actually cancelled their exhibition of a trans-Siberian railway, just now. 516 01:01:11,290 --> 01:01:20,770 But yeah, so you know, the help can be both financial but also kind of discursive. 517 01:01:20,770 --> 01:01:28,540 And there is a huge point. I don't know if again, if I have time for this, but you started talking about how, 518 01:01:28,540 --> 01:01:36,070 you know, our work is important because it's kind of against tyranny. 519 01:01:36,070 --> 01:01:48,430 But what I’m wondering, is this way we've lived with this myth of Russia as an unbeatable country because, 520 01:01:48,430 --> 01:01:52,870 you know, the myth of the Russian might and power, 521 01:01:52,870 --> 01:02:00,040 but there is also a myth of the great Russian culture, especially great Russian literature and music, 522 01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:04,270 and I don't know ballet and all of that, 523 01:02:04,270 --> 01:02:12,310 and I’m thinking, OK, how is this possible that this country produces people, say, like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, 524 01:02:12,310 --> 01:02:19,180 but at the same time, this is the country that's been harassing their neighbours for, you know, 525 01:02:19,180 --> 01:02:28,150 for years and years and decades and centuries, within the last kind of in contemporary history. 526 01:02:28,150 --> 01:02:33,880 They've really harassed Georgia, Moldova, Syria, Chechnya, now Ukraine. 527 01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:38,540 I mean, it's a recurring thing. So, 528 01:02:38,540 --> 01:02:43,450 how does culture work? Does culture help anything? 529 01:02:43,450 --> 01:02:52,470 If we have this great Russian culture that actually is not a barrier to, you know, to exercise all these atrocities? 530 01:02:52,470 --> 01:02:58,170 What does this mean to have great literature in a country? What does it do? 531 01:02:58,170 --> 01:03:06,000 Do we misunderstand what art is or what culture is, and it's actually not a tool for betterment and innovation and sophistication? 532 01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:11,880 Or is there something specifically [INAUDIBLE] about Russian culture? I don't know the answer. 533 01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:18,990 [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: Let's not go there. I would have said there's nothing intrinsically anti tyrannical about art, per se, 534 01:03:18,990 --> 01:03:24,390 but this is why we develop, you know, art historical capacities for assessment. 535 01:03:24,390 --> 01:03:32,370 we need to look at each instance in its own context and debate it, civilly, debate it, one way or the other. 536 01:03:32,370 --> 01:03:38,670 [OLENA CHERVONIK]: Do you think there is an intrinsically anti-tyrannical capacity in art history? 537 01:03:38,670 --> 01:03:45,810 [GEOFFREY BATCHEN]: No, not specifically anti-tyrannical. I mean, this is why, of course, when I have students in a class, I debate with them about, 538 01:03:45,810 --> 01:03:50,100 what kind of art history should we be doing? what kind of questions should we be asking? 539 01:03:50,100 --> 01:03:55,170 You know, what kind of evaluations should we be propagating in our work? 540 01:03:55,170 --> 01:04:01,430 and that's because indeed, art history is not one thing, but also, it's not necessarily a good thing. 541 01:04:01,430 --> 01:04:05,760 There are good and less good types of art history, at least in my estimation. 542 01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:09,720 and I guess what I want from my students is for them to make assessments for 543 01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:14,880 themselves about what kind of art history they themselves will be pursuing. 544 01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:18,960 But we seem to run out of questions Olena. 545 01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:25,650 Thank you so much. There's lots of messages of support in the chat if you'd like to just read those. 546 01:04:25,650 --> 01:04:30,030 I know we all are thinking about you and your family. 547 01:04:30,030 --> 01:04:38,070 But of course, about Ukraine in general, as I say, it's very upsetting and frustrating to watch it from afar and feel like we're not doing anything. 548 01:04:38,070 --> 01:04:40,390 Just to remind people about the links that I put in there. 549 01:04:40,390 --> 01:04:46,710 Two of them have to do with, you know, macro cultural questions, but two of them are right here in Oxford. 550 01:04:46,710 --> 01:04:53,370 If you go down to Little Clarendon Street, you can see there are people packing up clothes and medicines to send to refugees on the Polish border, 551 01:04:53,370 --> 01:05:01,320 so, if you want to take some real-life action, you might wander down there, to Little Clarendon and find out what you can do to contribute. 552 01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:09,780 Olena, thank you very much. 553 01:05:20,610 --> 01:05:25,140 Good evening and thank you, everybody. 554 01:05:25,140 --> 01:05:43,297 Thank you. Bye.