1 00:00:01,980 --> 00:00:06,810 Many famous men and women have found their final arrest in Highgate Cemetery, 2 00:00:06,810 --> 00:00:11,460 Michael Faraday rub shoulders with George Eliot, Christina Rossetti with Animala. 3 00:00:11,460 --> 00:00:19,980 Yet of all those who lie interred in his 40 acre plot, Karl Marx and his imposing tomb surely casts the greatest shadow. 4 00:00:19,980 --> 00:00:24,030 He is one of the most influential and controversial thinkers of the modern age. 5 00:00:24,030 --> 00:00:31,200 Upon his gravestone, the following phrase is etched. The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways. 6 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:36,330 The point, however, is to change it. But what did Marx actually write? 7 00:00:36,330 --> 00:00:43,860 What were his influences? And have world events since his death serve to strengthen or to undermine his theory of history? 8 00:00:43,860 --> 00:00:49,440 With me to discuss Marx himself and Marxist writings are Xavier Cohen, 9 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:58,420 a third year undergraduate student studying PPY at Baylor College, and Cameron during a first year student studying French at college. 10 00:00:58,420 --> 00:01:04,560 Karen, we have a huge topic on our hands today, but let's start with something maybe slightly more manageable. 11 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:13,120 Where did Marx come from? Well, Marx was born on the 5th of May 1818 in Drear in Germany. 12 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:18,810 He was born to a Jewish family, but didn't have a particularly religious upbringing or anything. 13 00:01:18,810 --> 00:01:22,230 In fact, his father, who was a lawyer, 14 00:01:22,230 --> 00:01:31,680 officially renounced his religion and switched to Lutheranism despite the fact that Trigger was a heavily Catholic town. 15 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:37,860 He switched to Lutheranism. But in truth of the sort of socially elite were Protestant. 16 00:01:37,860 --> 00:01:45,720 And so that served the Marx family relatively well. Having said that, though, Marx's upbringing was was not religious, 17 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:55,890 either in a Jewish or Protestant sense it speculating too much to say that a relatively secular Jewish upbringing is going to lead on to his great, 18 00:01:55,890 --> 00:01:57,990 basically atheist philosophy. 19 00:01:57,990 --> 00:02:08,370 But certainly it is the case that the kind of ideas that he grew up with that his father exposed him to weren't particularly religiously freighted. 20 00:02:08,370 --> 00:02:18,690 So he would have read certainly things like important thing is that the French Enlightenment like Rousseau or did all. 21 00:02:18,690 --> 00:02:30,870 He then went on to study law and philosophy at university and wrote a dissertation and got his Ph.D. at the age of twenty four, 22 00:02:30,870 --> 00:02:36,360 I believe, actually twenty one. I think he was very young when he got to do so. 23 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:42,750 He got his Puchi at 21 and then I think straightaway started working in journalism. 24 00:02:42,750 --> 00:02:52,800 He worked for a newspaper called The Reenergizes that made you decide whether you're doing it in English and German and worked as a journalist. 25 00:02:52,800 --> 00:03:03,030 He covered a number of different questions, obviously reporting in early 19th century German journalism was a different thing than it is today. 26 00:03:03,030 --> 00:03:13,710 Notably, he wrote about the effect on peasants who would collect wood from land that was once common, 27 00:03:13,710 --> 00:03:17,340 but then became, it was declared to be private property. 28 00:03:17,340 --> 00:03:23,550 And so they faced prosecution because that he wrote about that and other economic questions. 29 00:03:23,550 --> 00:03:29,310 And that's really the sort of in a nutshell, really marks. He's moving about Central Europe. 30 00:03:29,310 --> 00:03:33,690 He ends up in Paris and eventually he's going to live in London for most of his life. 31 00:03:33,690 --> 00:03:40,050 He met Engels, I believe, first in Cologne, but they had this big meeting in Paris in about eight imitating 40s 1844. 32 00:03:40,050 --> 00:03:45,150 I think this man, Friedrich Engels, would have a huge influence on Marx's life. 33 00:03:45,150 --> 00:03:58,410 Engels was the son of an industrialist who had factories in England and Manchester, I believe, and he was of a similar cast of mind to Marx early on. 34 00:03:58,410 --> 00:04:05,190 They both knew about Hegelian philosophy, which was which had a lot of sway at that time. 35 00:04:05,190 --> 00:04:13,980 And they began collaborating on journalistic enterprises and on writing together on political economy. 36 00:04:13,980 --> 00:04:21,360 Later on, Engels would become a major of extremely major importance for Marx because effectively, 37 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:27,870 Engels supported Marx financially during all the latter half of his life when he 38 00:04:27,870 --> 00:04:36,030 was working on capital because he used the proceeds from his factory to fund Marx. 39 00:04:36,030 --> 00:04:43,500 What some people have seen as a great irony that Marx was benefiting from industrial production in England. 40 00:04:43,500 --> 00:04:49,950 I think Engels was also incredibly impressed with Marx, his intellect. Marx as a student is very keen on Shakespeare. 41 00:04:49,950 --> 00:05:00,630 Quote Shakespeare to Baron von Westphalian. Marx was incredibly influenced, as were almost all of his German contemporaries by. 42 00:05:00,630 --> 00:05:09,840 The great author of the previous generation, can you describe to us a bit of what Marx got from Hegel, but maybe how he turned on his head? 43 00:05:09,840 --> 00:05:21,180 Sure, yes. It's often said that Marx Marx would say about himself that he turned turned Hegel on on its head, not so modest. 44 00:05:21,180 --> 00:05:30,510 The key part of Hegel that Marx is a kind of a much wider kind of debate and discussion is haggles philosophy of history. 45 00:05:30,510 --> 00:05:39,300 And Hegel thinks that there are importantly, that there is a kind of notable pattern in history, a kind of driving force in history, 46 00:05:39,300 --> 00:05:46,530 and that this can be understood by us and we can see where we are in this in this part in history. 47 00:05:46,530 --> 00:05:50,700 And that history is heading towards a certain place. 48 00:05:50,700 --> 00:05:57,660 Interpretations of Hegel kind of often said to fall into two camps around the time of Marx's youth, 49 00:05:57,660 --> 00:06:02,520 the right to Ghanians or the old Acadians and the left young Hegelian. 50 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:07,650 Marx was a part of the leftist aliens who, unlike the right Hungarians, 51 00:06:07,650 --> 00:06:12,300 the latter kind of had a more conservative interpretation of Hegel's philosophy. 52 00:06:12,300 --> 00:06:21,030 And when he said that the culmination of historic progress was to be found in the contemporary Prussian states where 53 00:06:21,030 --> 00:06:32,200 one would find the development of reason manifesting kind of freedom and liberty for all man and rational beings. 54 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:41,500 The left aliens look to develop Hegel's philosophy and less religious and less conservative direction, 55 00:06:41,500 --> 00:06:52,270 which meant kind of admitting that or recognising that history was not its end in the mid 19th century. 56 00:06:52,270 --> 00:06:56,840 And that was still a way to go to to progress things. 57 00:06:56,840 --> 00:07:01,210 An important thing that Marx did that was important in turning Agel on his head. 58 00:07:01,210 --> 00:07:06,250 Is that where he goes or categories of like mind or the absolutes which are often seen as like 59 00:07:06,250 --> 00:07:15,490 akin to God as the kind of ideal development agent in history that is a part of all of us. 60 00:07:15,490 --> 00:07:25,540 Marx saw the material categories of men in our concrete lives needing to produce for ourselves work so that we can 61 00:07:25,540 --> 00:07:36,050 eat and continue to live as creating the kind of ideological realm within which our ideas and language rests. 62 00:07:36,050 --> 00:07:41,350 Obviously, Marx isn't inventing socialist thought from from nothing. 63 00:07:41,350 --> 00:07:50,080 He's drawing on socialist traditions. But it kind of the kind of workers movements, trade unionism that was present in Britain, France. 64 00:07:50,080 --> 00:08:01,280 But theoretically important, he draws on the utopian socialists and I think often. 65 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:10,250 Because they kind of a close rival to the thought of the materialist thought of Marx and Engels, you often find in Marx, and it was very critical, 66 00:08:10,250 --> 00:08:16,910 patronising tone towards the utopian utopian socialists who were, you know, 67 00:08:16,910 --> 00:08:21,590 silly and immature in that in that thought because they weren't historically grounded. 68 00:08:21,590 --> 00:08:25,550 They didn't have a view of history, which he takes from Hegel. Right. This is the important thing. 69 00:08:25,550 --> 00:08:30,170 We see where he kind of blends these two things, take these two traditions together. Cameron, 70 00:08:30,170 --> 00:08:41,330 you spoke earlier about how there's almost a dictionary between the ideas that Hegel developed in a religious context and Marx's economic viewpoint, 71 00:08:41,330 --> 00:08:51,350 but often saying quite, quite similar things. Hegel's philosophy, which is the basis of Marxism, but it's sort of the soil in which Marxism grows. 72 00:08:51,350 --> 00:08:58,850 You often hear in relation to Plato and Aristotle that, you know, Aristotle flipped Plato upside down because Plato, 73 00:08:58,850 --> 00:09:06,470 Plato has these universal categories, the forms and everything in the world of limitations are instantiations of these absolute forms. 74 00:09:06,470 --> 00:09:12,770 Aristotle, on the other hand, goes from our imperiousness line and says everything that we see in the world, we then sort of categorise. 75 00:09:12,770 --> 00:09:17,120 And so it's from the from the data, as it were, that we construct our categories. 76 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:22,400 And there's a very similar procedure with Marx and his philosophical forebear. 77 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:34,340 Hegel, where he has this very religiously tinged philosophy, is influenced a lot by different Eastern religions, Hinduism, Buddhism, 78 00:09:34,340 --> 00:09:45,230 where you have this idea that all human minds are part of an overall phenomenon that's called mind, but they don't realise it yet. 79 00:09:45,230 --> 00:09:52,910 And so over the course of history, various things sort of clash against each other and eventually lead to this great synthesis which 80 00:09:52,910 --> 00:10:00,260 destroys the divisions between our minds and comes to this realisation that all minds are one. 81 00:10:00,260 --> 00:10:04,340 Marx considered haggles philosophy to be structurally sound. 82 00:10:04,340 --> 00:10:14,420 That is to say that the the patterns that Hegel described of a dialectic progression of different phases through history, 83 00:10:14,420 --> 00:10:20,510 culminating in some ultimate realisation of perfect oneness. 84 00:10:20,510 --> 00:10:26,840 In the case of Hegel, this is an ideal progression where minds realise that they are like individual minds. 85 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:37,820 But part of one great thing called mind, Marx saw a similar thing with class divisions and antagonisms where you have 86 00:10:37,820 --> 00:10:44,090 various phases of history that correspond to different class untagged antagonisms, 87 00:10:44,090 --> 00:10:53,150 wherein different classes conflict, and then a social revolution breaks out and you get a sort of new paradigm. 88 00:10:53,150 --> 00:11:04,130 But that paradigm in itself is a new arena for class conflict between different classes, newly constituted classes. 89 00:11:04,130 --> 00:11:14,300 So he, as it were, translates haggles ideal progression into a material progression in which the what 90 00:11:14,300 --> 00:11:21,110 he calls forces of production and relations of production are of utmost importance. 91 00:11:21,110 --> 00:11:29,720 You've introduced the idea of class struggle to say which is the key, one of the key central themes to all of Marx's writings. 92 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:35,930 Perhaps what we should do now for the next section of the programme is just in a rather rough way, 93 00:11:35,930 --> 00:11:40,910 of course, deal with the main tenets of Marx's historical philosophy. 94 00:11:40,910 --> 00:11:49,880 Xavier, can you start with how Marx views the economic reality of capitalism as he sees it in Victorian England? 95 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:59,240 So for Marx, capitalism is one of several what he would call modes of production that have gone before. 96 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:06,920 A mode of production is a kind of economic system, if you like, that prevails at a certain time in history. 97 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:18,320 And what characterises modes of production are the ways in which people relate to one another and objects in production. 98 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:24,560 So a very important determining factor in what a mode of production like capitalism is, 99 00:12:24,560 --> 00:12:29,240 is what's going on when we consider what he would call the means of production. 100 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:35,870 The means of production are things that are used in order to produce things. 101 00:12:35,870 --> 00:12:46,160 Factories are an image we can have in our heads when we think of means of production, factories, tools, land in capitalism, 102 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:56,090 the means of production are owned by a certain class, the capitalist class or the bourgeoisie, as Marx called them. 103 00:12:56,090 --> 00:13:01,000 And they employ rather than say own the working. 104 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:09,700 So in previous modes of production that might have included slavery or a kind of relationship of serfdom in capitalism, 105 00:13:09,700 --> 00:13:16,600 workers themselves are free to sell their ability to work, to call their their labour power. 106 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,260 They're free to sell that to any capitalist they want. 107 00:13:20,260 --> 00:13:27,790 But ultimately, they're not free when we consider them as a group because they are forced to sell their labour to some Labour Party, 108 00:13:27,790 --> 00:13:34,630 to some capitalist or perish. And it's this kind of relationship of some who own that, 109 00:13:34,630 --> 00:13:42,730 which is used to produce and those who actually make it, that Marx, especially in his early part of his life, 110 00:13:42,730 --> 00:13:52,150 but will continue to see this in the later part of his life, would have seen this as a wrong an injustice, a bad thing about about capitalism. 111 00:13:52,150 --> 00:13:55,810 And this is what he's writing in the Communist Manifesto. Yeah. 112 00:13:55,810 --> 00:13:59,500 And which is a sort of a vulgarisation text, really. 113 00:13:59,500 --> 00:14:02,950 It's it's a it's a piece of propaganda. 114 00:14:02,950 --> 00:14:06,370 It's the manifesto of of a Communist Party. 115 00:14:06,370 --> 00:14:14,860 And so what it does is it puts some of this basic but quite complicated philosophy in relatively understandable terms. 116 00:14:14,860 --> 00:14:19,210 I talked about all heretofore existing histories in history of class struggle. 117 00:14:19,210 --> 00:14:26,090 Close's with his famous talks into the workers saying, you know, you have nothing to lose, but you change your world to win. 118 00:14:26,090 --> 00:14:37,870 But within that text, you do find the lineaments of a broader theory of history and historical progression in which he really highlights 119 00:14:37,870 --> 00:14:43,900 the connexion between these forces of production and the relations of production that they give rise to. 120 00:14:43,900 --> 00:14:58,030 You sometimes hear talk of the economic base that say the technology and stuff that's around and what that stuff is capable of doing. 121 00:14:58,030 --> 00:15:02,260 So obviously there's a there's a vast difference between, you know, factory manufacturers. 122 00:15:02,260 --> 00:15:09,550 You have it in China these days and a plough, as you might have had in mediaeval times. 123 00:15:09,550 --> 00:15:16,600 And the fact of that disparity in each case leads to a very different set of relationships. 124 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:25,480 So we talked a bit about wage labour under capitalism, wherein workers sell their labour to the people who own the means of production. 125 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:30,850 That's a different way of these different classes interacting than previously. 126 00:15:30,850 --> 00:15:39,370 But Marx really highlights the fact that it's dependent on the forces of production as they exist. 127 00:15:39,370 --> 00:15:47,650 So the technological developments in the means of production are the main driving factor for marks of the class struggle. 128 00:15:47,650 --> 00:15:49,630 Would you agree with that statement? Well, 129 00:15:49,630 --> 00:15:57,760 it's certainly a driving factor in historical progress because as advances are made in the means of production 130 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:05,090 and you get more technology technologically advanced and you can produce more and do more stuff with technology, 131 00:16:05,090 --> 00:16:12,250 there is sort of a lag time between that and new relations of production. 132 00:16:12,250 --> 00:16:15,910 So let's say you come up with this vast new technology, 133 00:16:15,910 --> 00:16:24,340 the steam engine that will enable you to do immense amount of new stuff that just couldn't be done before. 134 00:16:24,340 --> 00:16:35,110 But it will also imply, according to Marx, new ways of organising labour, production, distribution and all that. 135 00:16:35,110 --> 00:16:40,660 The problem is the steam engine is here now and they don't say, oh, well, we've created a steam engine. 136 00:16:40,660 --> 00:16:45,460 We've got to come up with a new way of organising the economy. That's not how history works. 137 00:16:45,460 --> 00:16:51,220 The steam engine happens and starts doing things and changing and progressing. 138 00:16:51,220 --> 00:16:59,980 And over time it becomes less and less compatible with the way that things have been organised until then. 139 00:16:59,980 --> 00:17:06,070 And this leads to what Marx calls contradictions between relations of production. 140 00:17:06,070 --> 00:17:10,960 That is the way that people interact and the forces of production as they exist. 141 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:17,620 And these contradictions, he says, will be reconciled and not really reconciled. 142 00:17:17,620 --> 00:17:22,210 But they'll explode in a social revolution which will change the landscape. 143 00:17:22,210 --> 00:17:32,140 And that's what you see between the feudal period when you have serfdom as the main sort of production and capitalism or the bourgeois production. 144 00:17:32,140 --> 00:17:38,830 So during most people fix it at about the 17th century, 18th century, 145 00:17:38,830 --> 00:17:48,160 the rise of the bourgeoisie and you have massive changes with the rise of a merchant class because of the technology that you have. 146 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:54,100 And so that change is brought on by the changes, changes in technology. 147 00:17:54,100 --> 00:18:00,730 A similar kind of analogy would be that many would say today, perhaps of Marx's persuasion or not, that. 148 00:18:00,730 --> 00:18:05,770 The Internet, you know, Internet activists who looked kind of free data, you know, 149 00:18:05,770 --> 00:18:11,080 data wants to be free and that we've got these new technological things that give us a kind of abundance, perhaps, 150 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:20,320 of the kind that Marx envisages that, you know, if I make a song and upload that you need some fancy algorithms that Apple might provide, 151 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:24,730 you know, in your iTunes store to prevent that from being accessible to everyone. 152 00:18:24,730 --> 00:18:27,740 But ultimately, we can freely distribute such a thing to everybody. 153 00:18:27,740 --> 00:18:36,790 And it's a certain economic system that we have capitalism that needs to make sure that can't be done so that one can continue to make a profit, 154 00:18:36,790 --> 00:18:41,590 which is the basis of people continuing to work under under such a system. 155 00:18:41,590 --> 00:18:46,720 And we you know, we see people talking now about changes in capitalism today. 156 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:54,430 Some would say post capitalism, certain kind of capitalistic tendencies we're seeing due to the changes in technology, 157 00:18:54,430 --> 00:18:58,600 in the information knowledge economy areas. 158 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:05,800 So this I think we can continue to see such a theme be in the more specific terms that Marx laid out that way or not, 159 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:13,000 this theme of technology influencing our economic system, we kind of still see this as a very relevant dynamic at play. 160 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:24,430 Today, Marx had a strong sense of scarcity of a good commodity being very important for capitalism's ongoing success and progress. 161 00:19:24,430 --> 00:19:31,900 Some people criticised him in later years for not understanding that capitalism could create new scarcities. 162 00:19:31,900 --> 00:19:39,460 Tzavela, do you think that's a fair criticism? Marx was certainly aware of the possibility of, you know, 163 00:19:39,460 --> 00:19:51,040 bright young things to come along and create a new consumer product that we may or may not think, you know, bring a great new thing into our lives. 164 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:56,080 You know, we can we can provide examples where this might be a new fad for young people, 165 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:03,190 a Furby or something that we think is a manufactured one that we might look at and think it's a shame that such a thing, 166 00:20:03,190 --> 00:20:09,880 you know, by manipulation of advertisement can be encouraged. So many people desire this new this new good. 167 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,630 And then with other cases, you know, with the two iPads that sat in front of us, 168 00:20:13,630 --> 00:20:22,090 we might think that this is a beneficial technological development that helps us to meet our needs and preferences in life more easily. 169 00:20:22,090 --> 00:20:27,190 Marx was certainly aware that capitalism would develop new consumer goods in this way. 170 00:20:27,190 --> 00:20:38,540 But perhaps in his economic writings, he failed to foresee the extent to which this kind of. 171 00:20:38,540 --> 00:20:46,190 Ideological force, to use his own terms like that, might be misleading people from that kind of true interests. 172 00:20:46,190 --> 00:20:49,520 Perhaps this is one of the things that has failed to, you know, 173 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:59,030 give the proletariat the revolutionary motivation that he said they certainly would have and he himself tried to instil in them. 174 00:20:59,030 --> 00:21:01,730 Come on, let's focus in on what Marx had to say about revolution, 175 00:21:01,730 --> 00:21:08,030 because that's what in the popular mindset, at least, is the most potent aspect of his thinking. 176 00:21:08,030 --> 00:21:14,070 Sure. Well, Marx said that effectively revolutions were inevitable. 177 00:21:14,070 --> 00:21:25,250 They're sort of the locomotive of history insofar as they crop up with regularity when you have certain conditions in place, 178 00:21:25,250 --> 00:21:32,720 those conditions being the contradictions between the ways that you can do things and the way that people organise doing things. 179 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:42,200 So what he thought in the case of the current well, the current at the time that he was writing situation, 180 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:48,740 that would that is, say, a relatively advanced industrial capitalism, not at all as advanced as we have it now. 181 00:21:48,740 --> 00:21:55,580 But he thought that basically, once you reach a certain level of contradiction, 182 00:21:55,580 --> 00:22:02,000 which he saw occurring because of the continual division and redivision every division of labour, 183 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:07,910 and because already in Marx's time you were seeing people in factories doing smaller and smaller tasks. 184 00:22:07,910 --> 00:22:11,150 And this sort of culminates in Fordism that you get in the 1920s in America, 185 00:22:11,150 --> 00:22:16,100 where people are sort of screwing one screw onto a car and that's their whole job. 186 00:22:16,100 --> 00:22:24,920 I mean, you can think of Charlie Buckets, Father and Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, whose sole job is to toothpaste caps onto toothpaste. 187 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:35,300 This, Marx says, is deeply alienating. But it also will lead to conflict because of a number of a number of reasons. 188 00:22:35,300 --> 00:22:44,300 One of the problems is that people will be so alienated from their human natures that they 189 00:22:44,300 --> 00:22:51,800 will basically revolt against the order that sort of dehumanised them to such a degree. 190 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,660 And so Marx says that there have been a number of social revolutions throughout human history. 191 00:22:56,660 --> 00:23:05,450 And the next one, the one that will happen because of the class conflict between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat, will be the last one, 192 00:23:05,450 --> 00:23:14,270 because human history will reach such a point that the division of labour this time won't just be changed by a social revolution, 193 00:23:14,270 --> 00:23:16,220 it will be abolished. 194 00:23:16,220 --> 00:23:25,910 And you have a situation in which, because of advanced industrial technology, will be able to provide for all of our needs in an equitable way. 195 00:23:25,910 --> 00:23:32,630 And it will lead to new ways of distributing things such that everybody will have their needs met. 196 00:23:32,630 --> 00:23:40,970 And you can be a full human being, which is what he sees as the end point of human history, or rather the beginning point of human history, 197 00:23:40,970 --> 00:23:47,750 because he says that we are currently in the prehistory of human society and will only be once we reach socialism, 198 00:23:47,750 --> 00:23:53,660 then communism that will enter human history through the destruction of the division of labour. 199 00:23:53,660 --> 00:23:59,690 That will happen through a social revolution, which he thought was coming up quite soon. 200 00:23:59,690 --> 00:24:05,660 And he tried to sort of bring about himself in a few advanced industrial societies of his day. 201 00:24:05,660 --> 00:24:13,100 Obviously, that hasn't happened, but that was something that he was anticipating at the time he was writing coming quite quickly, 202 00:24:13,100 --> 00:24:18,330 that turn of phrase of of Marx's Great Society, 203 00:24:18,330 --> 00:24:25,490 the prehistory with the emergence of prehistory, the kind of propagandising rhetoric of, 204 00:24:25,490 --> 00:24:31,820 you know, just how primitive capitalism is compared to our full communist potential. 205 00:24:31,820 --> 00:24:39,930 That's kind of typical of of of the ways in which Marx was not just a kind of distant commentator on the world around him, but, you know, 206 00:24:39,930 --> 00:24:47,300 so he conceived of himself as a revolutionary who was trying to persuade others to to change the world, to change the world around it. 207 00:24:47,300 --> 00:24:54,710 I mean, this is a rather bold question. I mean, forgive me, but do you think Marx ever saw himself as almost a messianic figure leading the 208 00:24:54,710 --> 00:25:00,650 proletariat to this beginning of history as he saw it from the current prehistory? 209 00:25:00,650 --> 00:25:05,390 If he did, he would be going against his own thinking in doing so, 210 00:25:05,390 --> 00:25:11,540 because he he would go against a certain kind of great man interpretation of history in which some, 211 00:25:11,540 --> 00:25:18,380 you know, great figure comes along and with their genius and power, move human history into a new direction. 212 00:25:18,380 --> 00:25:24,800 He would say that he was a product of history if if Marx didn't see himself as a messiah. 213 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,130 Other people certainly have seen him in those terms. 214 00:25:28,130 --> 00:25:38,580 I mean, Bertrand Russell has a famous comparison of Marxism as an ideology to Christianity, wherein there are various analogues between. 215 00:25:38,580 --> 00:25:45,710 So in this comparison, which is a bit mean and a bit unfair, but nevertheless amusing, 216 00:25:45,710 --> 00:25:51,870 Marx is the Messiah, the elect of Christianity correspond to the proletariat. 217 00:25:51,870 --> 00:25:56,130 The church would be the Communist Party. The second coming would be the revolution and so on. 218 00:25:56,130 --> 00:26:08,010 So I think that does point to a degree of religious thinking or at least religious structures of thinking that could be said to exist in Marxism. 219 00:26:08,010 --> 00:26:15,930 That doesn't necessarily mean it's an invalid philosophy, but it is something that people have sort of flagged up. 220 00:26:15,930 --> 00:26:21,690 We can come back to some of the more precise economic writings of Freud later in his life in that capital, 221 00:26:21,690 --> 00:26:26,880 but I feel that it's the right time to talk about some of a purportedly Marxist revolutions in the 222 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:34,590 20th century that did not come about in the way that Marx himself would necessarily have predicted. 223 00:26:34,590 --> 00:26:38,760 So come and join the example of the Russian Revolution. Sure. Well, 224 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:45,210 the the tricky thing about the Russian Revolution and most 20th century revolutions and deals is that 225 00:26:45,210 --> 00:26:52,740 they simply don't correspond to Marx's model of social revolution as as we've sort of discussed. 226 00:26:52,740 --> 00:26:59,940 So Marx predicted social revolutions in the most advanced industrial countries. 227 00:26:59,940 --> 00:27:05,490 So at the time, that would have been Germany, the UK and France, maybe the United States. 228 00:27:05,490 --> 00:27:09,960 But that's always, as always, a bit of a different question. 229 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:20,610 But he was expecting these revolutions to come about in these highly advanced capitalist countries because they had significant proletariats. 230 00:27:20,610 --> 00:27:30,450 That is to say, they had significant numbers, in some cases in the millions of industrial workers who worked in factories and were already being 231 00:27:30,450 --> 00:27:37,750 exploited by their employers who he thought would be the driving force behind social revolution. 232 00:27:37,750 --> 00:27:49,950 Now, in the Russian example and in 1917, Russia was effectively an agrarian and agrarian or even a close to a feudal society. 233 00:27:49,950 --> 00:27:56,250 I mean, you know, Tsar Nicholas had only abolished serfdom shortly before, a few decades before. 234 00:27:56,250 --> 00:28:09,840 And so it was not unusual for a Marxist to say at that time that Russia was a backward nation and to think that that would be the place where the 235 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:19,260 first Marxist style revolution with the seizure of the means of production would occur is not something that Marx would have predicted at all. 236 00:28:19,260 --> 00:28:26,560 It nevertheless happened. And that the reasons for that are, well, endlessly debated. 237 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:32,880 But do you feel it was a rather different kind of revolution? It was an opportunistic revolution by rather small group of people. 238 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:37,170 I would I would say that because in the case of Lenin, I mean, 239 00:28:37,170 --> 00:28:48,480 Lenin developed Marxist theory for what he said was Marxist theory in a in a certain direction, a direction of basically revolutionary strategy. 240 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,260 And Lenin wanted to seise power in Russia. 241 00:28:52,260 --> 00:28:59,520 He had spent a lot of time in Germany, notably with various German socialists and communists, 242 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:05,160 and felt that there was a propitious moment for revolution in Russia in the beginning of the 20th century, 243 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,310 attempted it in the very early 20th century. 244 00:29:08,310 --> 00:29:20,580 And then finally in 1917, with the disorder that was brought about by the First World War, managed to take advantage of a power vacuum to take power. 245 00:29:20,580 --> 00:29:29,610 And that was it has to be said, because of the success of Lenin's major theoretical and strategic innovation, which was the Vanguard party. 246 00:29:29,610 --> 00:29:37,200 This was something that Marx didn't directly theorise, but that Lenin would have said he he sort of derives from Marxist thought. 247 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:45,060 And it's the idea that you need a radical party that can basically lay the groundwork 248 00:29:45,060 --> 00:29:50,460 for a social revolution and have it sitting there and ready for a revolutionary moment, 249 00:29:50,460 --> 00:29:55,470 which is what happened in Russia and which Lenin and the Bolsheviks seised upon. 250 00:29:55,470 --> 00:30:02,300 But it certainly isn't what any what one might say a classical Marxist would have predicted. 251 00:30:02,300 --> 00:30:08,880 There are cases early on in the in the Soviet Union and I think nineteen twenty one. 252 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:17,700 And in Kronstadt, where there's a moment where workers are quite militant workers of the kind that Marx might have, 253 00:30:17,700 --> 00:30:25,680 you might one might envisage remarks in earlier writings in the Communist Manifesto who dock workers who are rising up against 254 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:33,240 kind of bosses and a certain kind of authoritarianism that they're seeing coming in the changes and in the Soviet Union, 255 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:41,520 who are kind of crushed by the the Red Army. And it's this kind of fight often between anarchists and Leninists. 256 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:49,170 So those who are all kind of agree that ultimately we should end up in a lovely utopian communist society, but who disagree. 257 00:30:49,170 --> 00:30:55,830 There are strong disagreements there between how once you get there and people will use Marx, 258 00:30:55,830 --> 00:31:00,840 it will try and drag Marx onto their side by creating different parts of his of his work. 259 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:05,910 And at that, I think is a really major difference with Leninism is the sort of authoritarian strain, 260 00:31:05,910 --> 00:31:15,120 because I would have said implicit within the theory of the Vanguard party, that is this sort of gada which exists. 261 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:20,640 Of effectively intellectual's, which in the Russian situation, 262 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:26,670 it had to sort of be intellectuals who form the Vanguard party because you didn't really have a well-developed proletariat. 263 00:31:26,670 --> 00:31:33,480 And according to the Marxist counter things, it'll be the the working class that rises up and drives the revolution. 264 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:45,390 Whereas in the case of Lenin, it was a sort of relatively small self-selecting squad of radical intellectuals who did a lot of the fermenting and, 265 00:31:45,390 --> 00:31:53,490 you know, radicalised a portion of the working class. But they were driving it sort of from above or at the very least from from the side. 266 00:31:53,490 --> 00:32:02,700 Right. And so this almost elitist strain in Leninism that puts intellectuals above the working class, which was disputed at the time. 267 00:32:02,700 --> 00:32:10,470 I mean, Rosa Luxemburg was somebody who said that, you know, we need to give scope to the working class to determine the the mode of their revolution. 268 00:32:10,470 --> 00:32:15,330 She was a sort of left Marxist or even more libertarian Marxist. 269 00:32:15,330 --> 00:32:25,120 And I think this authoritarian strain that you find in Leninism, at least from my point of view, can go some way towards explaining Stalinism, 270 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:35,040 much of what happened later, which just had so little respect for the lives, much less the viewpoints of the working class. 271 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:40,920 Now, I will say that there's a tendency on the radical left, especially since 1956, 272 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:49,470 of excusing or explaining away these revolutions in a sort of dogmatic Marxist way. 273 00:32:49,470 --> 00:32:56,910 What I mean by that is by saying, oh, well, the Russian Revolution didn't follow what Mark said. 274 00:32:56,910 --> 00:33:04,650 Therefore, Marks remains perfectly right. And we just need to pay attention exactly to what he said to the letter, 275 00:33:04,650 --> 00:33:11,460 chapter and verse and disregard these revolutions because they weren't really Marxist. 276 00:33:11,460 --> 00:33:17,220 Right. I think that's a disingenuous way of looking at things. 277 00:33:17,220 --> 00:33:28,310 And I think that the sort of dogmatism with which some Marxists deal with these ideas is something that Marx himself wouldn't have appreciated. 278 00:33:28,310 --> 00:33:35,640 I mean, he famously said when the first Marxist party was formed, I don't know what Marxism is, but all I know is I'm not a Marxist. 279 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,120 And I think that's because he, as we said, 280 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:49,320 was a very practical political operator and was less concerned with sort of sticking to exactly what he wrote and more concerned with re-evaluating, 281 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:54,450 constantly re-evaluating how has this phrase, the ruthless critique of everything existing. 282 00:33:54,450 --> 00:33:59,010 And so I would have thought that if Marx had lived until this day, 283 00:33:59,010 --> 00:34:10,110 he would have changed his doctrine umpteen times and offer the better because he was he considered what he was doing to be scientific socialism. 284 00:34:10,110 --> 00:34:21,300 And obviously, science is in part all about testing hypotheses, disproving them, putting theories out there and saying, oh, where the holes in this. 285 00:34:21,300 --> 00:34:27,540 And so the fact that Marx and I lived until 1883 meant that he couldn't continue refining it. 286 00:34:27,540 --> 00:34:34,410 Other people tried to do it in his place, but obviously that grew into a whole web of different factions. 287 00:34:34,410 --> 00:34:41,250 Is there a difficulty that Marx himself, again re-evaluating for his own life and writing so much makes it? 288 00:34:41,250 --> 00:34:44,320 There's no one Marx that we can go and say, oh, that's what he thought. 289 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,970 You said that he changed his opinion towards the end of his life about various issues. 290 00:34:47,970 --> 00:34:59,100 So I think I think Lenin might have said that Marxism is a block of steel from which, you know, no no parts can be removed. 291 00:34:59,100 --> 00:35:06,480 It would be very, very strange for any given human with the kind of interest that Marx had to continue throughout their 292 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:17,700 life and in an entirely consistent philosophy or guide to political action throughout their lives. 293 00:35:17,700 --> 00:35:25,440 Let us return in the final 10 minutes. Time flies to some of the more specific economic points the remarks made later in his life. 294 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:32,880 He wrote a huge amount I found when I was reading the show. And some of his mathematical writings in the 1870 are maths myself. 295 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:37,680 And he and he got interested in trying to revise the calculus. 296 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:39,600 He didn't succeed. But nonetheless. 297 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:44,970 But he should have written such a thing as being, you know, some non-trivial knowledge of the subject is quite extraordinary. 298 00:35:44,970 --> 00:35:48,120 He's not remembered for his mathematics, but he is remembered for his economics. 299 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:58,650 And this particular point about how profits change as a capitalist society develops that has become very well known to want to set it up for us. 300 00:35:58,650 --> 00:36:07,590 So typically, in what we would call perhaps modern economics or neoclassical economics, 301 00:36:07,590 --> 00:36:15,180 there is a view that within capitalism, if we're even to mention such a word in economics, which which we might not do, 302 00:36:15,180 --> 00:36:22,620 if you look at a kind of one economic textbook in economies, as they might say, we have ups and downs, 303 00:36:22,620 --> 00:36:30,810 moments where economies are growing at a moment where economies are growing at a slower rate or even shrinking recessions. 304 00:36:30,810 --> 00:36:34,560 And the picture that is painted is one of these ups and downs. 305 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,940 But as time progresses in the long term, that's that's why we have these ups and downs. 306 00:36:38,940 --> 00:36:43,740 And there's no kind of big changes in the way that capitalism works. 307 00:36:43,740 --> 00:36:48,540 Economies work apart from a general trend to growth, whereas for Marx, 308 00:36:48,540 --> 00:36:52,830 this is kind of capitalism as a kind of historically specific mode of production, 309 00:36:52,830 --> 00:37:01,320 as we said before, a specific economic system that has a tendency and it changes as it as it grows and as time goes on. 310 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:13,080 And part of this comes from what Mark sees as a tendency for the what he calls the rate of profit, which is the kind of rates of return, 311 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:21,780 if you like, broadly on investment that on average capitalists will get for the money that they put down in their businesses. 312 00:37:21,780 --> 00:37:30,000 So the rate that there is a tendency for that greater profit to decline as time goes on and as that rate of profit declines. 313 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:40,470 And this helps lead to deeper and deeper crises which provide riper moments for the working class as unemployment is created, 314 00:37:40,470 --> 00:37:46,500 widespread suffering, riper moments for social revolutions, 315 00:37:46,500 --> 00:37:57,150 for workers to recognise their true interests in fighting for a communist world and taking control of of of their businesses, 316 00:37:57,150 --> 00:38:04,000 their factories, and ultimately creating a new society over time. 317 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:13,300 Interestingly, this profit from Marks comes solely from the workers, the workers from marks create value, 318 00:38:13,300 --> 00:38:18,340 and we have a picture of the bourgeoisie as a kind of lazy, fat cat doing nothing. 319 00:38:18,340 --> 00:38:25,060 So whereas in an economic textbook today, the owners of capital are rewarded, their profits, a reward, 320 00:38:25,060 --> 00:38:30,610 are seen as a reward for bearing risk on their capital that they can face to lose the marks. 321 00:38:30,610 --> 00:38:33,880 You know, you put down money in an industry, 322 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:41,680 you're very likely to get more back and the workers are the only people producing the things that have value. 323 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:50,590 And yet profits are being earned by capitalists who don't make any of the products and workers are not exploited. 324 00:38:50,590 --> 00:38:57,700 And exploitation then becomes a quite kind of mathematical economic category for Marx that he can measure. 325 00:38:57,700 --> 00:39:04,900 He measures in a certain kind of ratio in his work, and [INAUDIBLE] measure this across time and predict that, 326 00:39:04,900 --> 00:39:12,400 you know, the rate of exploitation as it leads to the kind of rate of profit will decline as time goes on. 327 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:20,110 He was criticised later for through no fault of his own, coming before the so-called marginal revolution. 328 00:39:20,110 --> 00:39:27,010 Yeah, so the the marginal revolution is the kind of change around the kind of turn of the 20th century and slightly 329 00:39:27,010 --> 00:39:33,700 before where economics moves from what might be called classical economics to neoclassical economics, 330 00:39:33,700 --> 00:39:46,390 where they kind of methodology changes when people recognise the importance for rational agents of considering the marginal unit B. 331 00:39:46,390 --> 00:39:52,690 B, that the kind of the next unit that capitalism might produce, the next worker they might employ, 332 00:39:52,690 --> 00:40:00,070 and the cost to them of employing that next worker versus the profit that they would get from such a thing. 333 00:40:00,070 --> 00:40:08,740 And this way of thinking about things leads to quite a kind of widespread, much more mathematical approach to economic thinking. 334 00:40:08,740 --> 00:40:20,980 Not that Marx's approach wasn't mathematical in its own right, but economics prior to this revolution is often seen as only of historical interest, 335 00:40:20,980 --> 00:40:27,730 but old fashioned quite yet and not not useful insofar as economics can be useful today, 336 00:40:27,730 --> 00:40:36,890 we're told in the dying moments, let us move towards some of the modern day verifications of Marx's writings. 337 00:40:36,890 --> 00:40:43,110 There is a very strong analytical Marxism department in Oxford for the last 150 or so years. 338 00:40:43,110 --> 00:40:49,690 You are saying about that? Yeah. So interestingly important, depending on one's point of view, 339 00:40:49,690 --> 00:40:59,980 import what one might call important developments in Marxist thought that taking place here in Oxford at since the kind of 1970s, 340 00:40:59,980 --> 00:41:09,110 most notably a political philosopher who studied at Oxford, went on to become the teacherly professor of social and political philosophy. 341 00:41:09,110 --> 00:41:19,380 And it's called Alsos Gascoine Hussein Jerico and embarked on a project he called No Marxism. 342 00:41:19,380 --> 00:41:25,570 And if that can be bleeped out or analytical Marxism, 343 00:41:25,570 --> 00:41:34,300 and he saw kind of 20th century academic Marxist thought as being a part of what you might call the continental tradition, 344 00:41:34,300 --> 00:41:43,390 which the Analytica tradition, which prevails over the continental tradition in Oxford, would see as lacking rigour, lacking clarity, 345 00:41:43,390 --> 00:41:47,650 a general kind of fluffy pretentiousness would be the attitude that many would have towards it. 346 00:41:47,650 --> 00:41:57,130 And he struggled for many years with the Marxist philosophy of laureate's as a kind of French structuralist, I believe, 347 00:41:57,130 --> 00:42:04,510 and sought to cut the rubbish from Marxism and create a kind of rigorous analysis of capitalism that would 348 00:42:04,510 --> 00:42:11,590 stand up to the kind of philosophical standards that were prevailing in Oxford in his day standards, 349 00:42:11,590 --> 00:42:19,360 which had led to conclusions that were to see Marxism as quite irrelevant in philosophy. 350 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:31,720 Doing so, he wrote a book called Karl Marx's Theory of History, A Defence, where he focussed especially on a mere paragraph of Marxist thoughts, 351 00:42:31,720 --> 00:42:36,760 prefaced the contribution to a critique of political economy in 1858, 352 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:41,680 which is often thought of as the clearest statement of Marxist theory of history. 353 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:53,230 And he uses this and he employs a functional explanation, which is the explanation that we find in in science and biology, most notably in evolution, 354 00:42:53,230 --> 00:43:03,330 where we say that a certain bird develops a certain kind of wing over another kind, precisely because this kind of wing is the kind that will. 355 00:43:03,330 --> 00:43:10,850 Further, the bird's flight or ability to live and reproduce this kind of explanation where 356 00:43:10,850 --> 00:43:17,700 one looks at the function of a given trait in order to explain why it exists, 357 00:43:17,700 --> 00:43:24,570 Karen Hughes finds in Mark's, whether it's to be found in Mark's or not or to be contributed by Cohen, is up for discussion. 358 00:43:24,570 --> 00:43:34,620 Perhaps, but Karen would say that the key thought in Mark's is that the key thing in human history is that the forces of production, 359 00:43:34,620 --> 00:43:39,510 which are essentially the kind of technological capacity and the skills and knowledge that 360 00:43:39,510 --> 00:43:44,370 humans have in order to employ those to make things so the ability to kind of make stuff. 361 00:43:44,370 --> 00:43:50,820 This is the kind of drive, ultimate driving force in history. It's not so much classes and class struggles. 362 00:43:50,820 --> 00:43:58,320 You know, this main force is carried out through them. And this needs to keep developing because humans desire more stuff. 363 00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:03,120 And we are intelligent beings. And this is broadly happened already and it will continue to happen. 364 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:07,410 He thinks he sees the relations of production. 365 00:44:07,410 --> 00:44:14,010 That is the ways in which those who own or employ or rent the kind of broad 366 00:44:14,010 --> 00:44:18,750 relations of production that characterise a mode of production like capitalism, 367 00:44:18,750 --> 00:44:25,050 such a thing being determined and shaped by the forces of production. 368 00:44:25,050 --> 00:44:34,050 And it's precisely because the relation to of production of capitalism are the best way of developing, giving us growth in a given historical moment. 369 00:44:34,050 --> 00:44:39,120 It's precisely because of that, that capitalism is allowed to continue to exist. 370 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:44,490 But as soon as we start to see full and growth come in, things that as soon as it starts to happen, 371 00:44:44,490 --> 00:44:53,940 as soon as a certain mode of production, a certain dominant way of capitalists, say, purchasing the labour of workers, 372 00:44:53,940 --> 00:45:01,230 as soon as it starts to fail to provide us with growth, we'll start to see moments of crisis where new candidates, 373 00:45:01,230 --> 00:45:07,530 new options, new economic potential economic systems will start to present themselves. 374 00:45:07,530 --> 00:45:10,620 And ultimately, if one fails to continue to develop the forces, 375 00:45:10,620 --> 00:45:16,260 production will only be a matter of time until it gets replaced with another system that well. 376 00:45:16,260 --> 00:45:19,350 Well, so you've already begun and almost finished answering. 377 00:45:19,350 --> 00:45:25,950 The final question I'm going to ask Carmen before our time is all up that, you know, repeated her around an iPad, 378 00:45:25,950 --> 00:45:30,810 which is perhaps more than anything else but the triumph of a modern capitalist economy. 379 00:45:30,810 --> 00:45:36,720 And indeed, Marx himself was very admiring of what cuppers had managed to achieve. 380 00:45:36,720 --> 00:45:46,140 Do you feel, Cameron, do you feel that we are now in a society so far removed from that which Marx himself was able to observe and to get 381 00:45:46,140 --> 00:45:53,460 empirical evidence from that his theory that capitalism would ultimately lead to the revolution of the proletariat? 382 00:45:53,460 --> 00:46:01,410 Do you feel that that might no longer apply? Well, I think dogmatism when it comes to Marxism is never to be desired. 383 00:46:01,410 --> 00:46:10,110 And I think Marx himself would have embraced a robust revisionism when it comes to his theory. 384 00:46:10,110 --> 00:46:20,010 Taking into account new data. I would say that the easy division of society into bourgeoisie and proletariat no longer holds. 385 00:46:20,010 --> 00:46:28,070 Certainly in Western societies. I would personally identify more of a global division of of class antagonisms. 386 00:46:28,070 --> 00:46:36,300 So it's no longer the case that the industrial working class is in one country and produces for that country and everything. 387 00:46:36,300 --> 00:46:42,870 And we live in a globalised world, as we've been hearing from various jokes for the last 25 years. 388 00:46:42,870 --> 00:46:47,940 And the different classes that Marx describes, I think are now globalised. 389 00:46:47,940 --> 00:46:57,400 And so. You need some degree of nuance to Marxist theory if you're going to keep it at all, 390 00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:04,820 but I do think that the Marxist toolbox of focussing on the material facts of life, 391 00:47:04,820 --> 00:47:13,120 looking at the ways in which we are all affected and affect the world around us and in so many different ways, 392 00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:18,430 much is deeply, deeply relevant and deeply useful for evaluating the world. 393 00:47:18,430 --> 00:47:21,460 And as he would have said, for changing it. 394 00:47:21,460 --> 00:47:28,510 Well, thank you very much, both of you, for agreeing to rush through such a vast topic, but with such universal expertise. 395 00:47:28,510 --> 00:47:32,770 Next week is the final episode in this series in our spare time. 396 00:47:32,770 --> 00:47:35,886 And I hope you'll join us. Thank you.