1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:04,450 Hello and welcome to witness with me, Joe Maddocks and meet Alice Evans. 2 00:00:04,470 --> 00:00:08,640 We are here at the Centre for the Study of the book in the Bodleian Library, Oxford, 3 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:14,580 and today we are very happy to be joined virtually by book artist and sign up and dancing fan. 4 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:23,310 Thank you for joining us for what everybody is calling the inaugural episode of book this amazing honoured honour to be here. 5 00:00:23,610 --> 00:00:28,560 We are in a quiet, down and drizzly oxford today. 6 00:00:28,590 --> 00:00:34,920 Where in the world are you? That's great, because I'm in a damp and drizzly Boston, Massachusetts, in the United States. 7 00:00:35,250 --> 00:00:40,620 Thank you as well, Ben, for joining us. So each of these episodes, we're focusing on one object. 8 00:00:40,620 --> 00:00:45,209 And with you, that's your book, 20 Slices, which we have a copy of, 9 00:00:45,210 --> 00:00:50,970 which is currently on display in the Western Library in Oxford downstairs from what Joe and I are now. 10 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:56,190 We want to start with asking if you could physically describe it for us, please. 11 00:00:56,460 --> 00:01:05,820 What is 20 slices? Yes. So the book is 20 slices and kind of the longer title is 20 slices of American Cheese. 12 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:11,969 And it's a book that's made of 20 individual slices of American cheese. 13 00:01:11,970 --> 00:01:17,370 Kraft American Single is the brand, and they come individually wrapped in plastic. 14 00:01:17,370 --> 00:01:24,479 So each slice, I forget the exact size, but it's something like 3.4 inches by 3.4 inches. 15 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:30,990 But the book itself is 3.5 inches by 3.6 inches by 2.5 inches if you want the actual dimensions. 16 00:01:31,350 --> 00:01:36,660 And so it's 20 individually wrapped slices that have been bound together within a hardcover case. 17 00:01:36,780 --> 00:01:45,090 And the case is covered in yellow book cloth and on the front, and there's 20 slices on the spine that says American Cheese. 18 00:01:45,510 --> 00:01:54,780 And it also has an imprint mark for catalogue press, which is the the name of the kind of publisher in which I produce these books. 19 00:01:55,680 --> 00:02:00,149 And so, cheese, you chose to make this out of cheese. 20 00:02:00,150 --> 00:02:05,220 And in focus. We're focusing on artist books which possibly have unusual material choices. 21 00:02:06,540 --> 00:02:09,600 I just wanted to ask you, what drew you to that material? 22 00:02:09,870 --> 00:02:14,780 Yeah, it kind of came from a few places, you know, I like cheese. 23 00:02:14,790 --> 00:02:22,019 That's one of them. But I was kind of I make books and publish them as cataloguing press. 24 00:02:22,020 --> 00:02:25,319 And I like thinking about books as catalogues. 25 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:32,520 You know, sometimes that's catalogues of, you know, texts like, you know, a typical book might be sometimes it's catalogues of images. 26 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,660 There's also thinking about the book is kind of a catalogue of physical objects. 27 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:43,139 And then I was also just trying to push and prod, you know what, like a book could be. 28 00:02:43,140 --> 00:02:52,310 And I was walking in a grocery store and saw this pack of American cheese slices and thought, you know, hey, this is already basically a book. 29 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,549 You know, these things look like pages. They're kind of packed together. 30 00:02:56,550 --> 00:03:01,590 There's an order. So I really did was bind those together and give them the cover. 31 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,890 And I thought it was interesting how it, you know, just becomes a book through that process. 32 00:03:06,900 --> 00:03:12,120 You know, it's also kind of I found found objects and you find them yourself. 33 00:03:12,530 --> 00:03:21,450 Yeah. Yeah. For all these these books, I kind of in some cases design them, you know, plan them out and then make them myself by hand. 34 00:03:22,230 --> 00:03:28,110 And I have to ask, what is cheese like to work with? Because that's very different from finding a book made of paper. 35 00:03:28,110 --> 00:03:37,820 I can imagine. Totally. So the the you know, the pages, as it were, are, you know, American cheese that's wrapped in plastic and then kind of, 36 00:03:37,830 --> 00:03:42,210 you know, sealed with a little bit of, you know, stickiness. So the plastic is closed. 37 00:03:42,690 --> 00:03:50,190 And so when I first thought I would bind them together, I tried a few different things and I tried poking holes and sewing, you know, through them. 38 00:03:50,610 --> 00:03:57,060 But then, you know, kind of realised that the cheese gets out, you know, more quickly than it would if you wait for the adhesive to, you know. 39 00:03:58,230 --> 00:04:04,320 Last as long as I can. So I ended up using a glue that can glue to plastic. 40 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:08,130 So it's this glue like I think E 6000 is the name of this glue. 41 00:04:08,140 --> 00:04:11,160 It's kind of a super glue that works with plastic. 42 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:17,340 It still has a little bit of flexibility. So the book is actually kind of a perfect bound book where it's just glued along the spine. 43 00:04:17,730 --> 00:04:21,300 And then, you know, I kind of include a little sheet of paper on there, too. 44 00:04:22,050 --> 00:04:27,600 So so 20 slices, as we've said, is currently on display in the Sensational Books exhibition downstairs, 45 00:04:27,810 --> 00:04:33,060 which means that we is being seen daily by a lot of people coming into the library. 46 00:04:33,060 --> 00:04:40,140 And we have a lot of school groups in particular that come around and the school kids are absolutely fascinated by 20, let's say they love it. 47 00:04:40,170 --> 00:04:50,100 The high point of the exhibition for them. One of the questions that we get asked a lot is how is this a book deal? 48 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:56,220 Do you think of it as a book? Do you think of it as a work of art that looks a bit like a book? 49 00:04:57,150 --> 00:05:07,830 And is that distinction important to you? I think of it as a as a book, but I also have a very broad definition of a book. 50 00:05:07,830 --> 00:05:15,629 I think like I think I think of lots of things in this category of like artists book maybe that kind of blurs the lines. 51 00:05:15,630 --> 00:05:26,280 Like for me, an artist's book is kind of the definition I've come up with for myself is a book where kind of the form or the idea or the like. 52 00:05:26,280 --> 00:05:31,079 The concept behind it is almost as important than the contents that are that are within it. 53 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:35,790 Whereas normal books, it's like the contents or like the story or the the words that are the most important thing. 54 00:05:37,620 --> 00:05:45,630 But I think of it as a book. You know, it's if you had a book that was the same size or was just pictures of American cheese slices gone together, 55 00:05:46,020 --> 00:05:49,260 I don't think anyone would really question that, you know, in the same way. 56 00:05:50,550 --> 00:05:56,010 And I don't think there's that much of a difference of just having the real slices versus having, you know, pictures that are printed on pages. 57 00:05:56,700 --> 00:06:00,110 And so, yeah, I think it's a book. Thanks. 58 00:06:00,170 --> 00:06:05,370 It's a great art. The other question that we get asked a lot by the kids is, does it smell like cheese? 59 00:06:06,060 --> 00:06:10,080 Do you have a copy there? And do you can you tell us if it does smell like cheese? 60 00:06:11,100 --> 00:06:13,620 Yeah, I made this book as in the addition of ten, 61 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:20,700 so I do have a copy here and it's one that I haven't taken as like that I've kind of showed in places. 62 00:06:20,700 --> 00:06:28,469 Where is it in son for a while. And so it's not in the in the best shape of all these books, but it does smell like it does smell like cheese. 63 00:06:28,470 --> 00:06:31,980 And as it gets older, it smells, you know, more and more like older cheese. 64 00:06:32,670 --> 00:06:39,750 Thank you. In the exhibition, it's currently locked away at the moment behind glass, so we haven't been able to sniff it recently. 65 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:47,400 It's also it's rotating in a mini fridge again is kind of just reminding people that it is food. 66 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:48,690 Yeah, totally. 67 00:06:49,170 --> 00:07:00,020 Um, one of the other works of yours that we have in the collection is 60,000 immortal individuals, which is a work probably about anonymity. 68 00:07:00,030 --> 00:07:04,530 This is immortality and the way some information about people persists, 69 00:07:04,530 --> 00:07:13,319 whereas other information is lost is immortality something that is interesting to you? 70 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:14,729 And in connection with that, 71 00:07:14,730 --> 00:07:24,570 how do you feel about your work being in a collection like The Body and which has a 100% retention policy and will stay here kind of in perpetuity? 72 00:07:25,380 --> 00:07:26,160 Yeah, totally. 73 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:35,850 I think those topics are really interesting to me and I think what I kind of like about the cheese book existing within this context of, 74 00:07:36,750 --> 00:07:42,270 you know, you say immortality, but you know, the library's never going to get rid of it. 75 00:07:42,270 --> 00:07:45,420 But you know, is the library immortal? You know, definitely not. 76 00:07:45,660 --> 00:07:53,770 It's just a question of how, how long. And so what I like about the cheese book is like all books, you know, as conservator, 77 00:07:54,030 --> 00:07:58,019 you know, you're probably working every day to keep all these books going. 78 00:07:58,020 --> 00:08:01,590 And normal books lasts, you know, longer than people do. 79 00:08:02,010 --> 00:08:05,340 But, you know, eventually everything kind of turns to dust. 80 00:08:06,030 --> 00:08:11,159 And so what I like about the cheese book is it kind of flips that relationship between people and books. 81 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:17,400 And so, you know, in a lot of ways, it degrades faster than us people do and. 82 00:08:18,830 --> 00:08:24,350 I think it's kind of also in some ways a little bit of a, you know, reminder that all books do that. 83 00:08:25,830 --> 00:08:31,170 But I do like that it's there, you know, as long as the library is. And I think there's. 84 00:08:32,570 --> 00:08:36,050 Something fun about having kind of a life object like this in that context? 85 00:08:36,530 --> 00:08:39,800 Yeah, very much. It feels alive in our collection, I have to say. 86 00:08:40,730 --> 00:08:44,990 And you said it's an edition of ten and you've got one and we've got one. 87 00:08:45,020 --> 00:08:49,570 So the other eight. Have they all gone to big public institutions with a similar policy? 88 00:08:49,580 --> 00:08:53,239 Do you know? So I made I think I made 12. 89 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:54,319 I have two artist proofs. 90 00:08:54,320 --> 00:09:04,340 I think I have I forget if I think every one of the artist proofs and a few have gone to various kind of like university collections like like Oxford. 91 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:11,360 And I haven't talked to all of them. I know some do have, you know, this policy where everything stays in the library. 92 00:09:12,020 --> 00:09:15,049 I think some might have a different policy. 93 00:09:15,050 --> 00:09:20,300 And if the book kind of moulds too much, maybe they might then decide to dispose of it. 94 00:09:21,260 --> 00:09:31,459 There is recently I had a conversation with the conservators at NYU, and they're trying to think about, you know, they want to keep it for forever. 95 00:09:31,460 --> 00:09:36,410 And they're thinking about ways to maybe could they refresh the cheese, you know, if it's they want to. 96 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:42,080 For them and kind of for me, it's also important that people get to like see this book. 97 00:09:43,010 --> 00:09:50,960 And so if it gets to a point where there's too much aliveness, you know, mould on it, that it's not safe to be showing people in a normal context. 98 00:09:51,420 --> 00:09:55,490 You know, I think it's an interesting question there. And what do you do? Do you put it in a glass box? 99 00:09:55,520 --> 00:10:01,700 I think like toughs might be putting their book into a plexiglass box and letting kind of nature take its course. 100 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:09,220 And I really like that, you know, solution. At least librarian glossary check. 101 00:10:10,190 --> 00:10:13,399 Thanks, Richard. Just shipping in to grocery check. Tufts. 102 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:17,720 Tufts University in Greater Boston, Massachusetts, in the United States of America. 103 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:25,730 Back to Ben. And another solution, as you know, do try and replace the cheese with new cheese so that it has a new life span again. 104 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:34,519 You have seen some photos of I think it's the NYU one. It looks a bit different from us now because ours is still very fresh and learned. 105 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:41,719 Not to boast for hours is pristine. Pristine. So you've obviously engaged in a dialogue with conservatives there. 106 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,709 And you said the question has been posed about replacing the cheese, for example. 107 00:10:45,710 --> 00:10:51,710 How do you feel about that? Yeah, I am. I kind of feel fine about it because, well, first of all, 108 00:10:51,710 --> 00:10:56,000 I like that there's different solutions happening with different editions of the book kind of. 109 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:01,399 I think for me, I kind of make the thing and, you know, put it out in the world. 110 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:07,160 And it's interesting to see the different responses and the different ways people decide to take care of it or not. 111 00:11:09,020 --> 00:11:18,060 But I think there's like for me, the important thing is that there's actual cheese in this book and that people can interact with it in that way. 112 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:24,649 And I think if, you know, conservators are able to, you know, replace the cheese slices in some way, 113 00:11:24,650 --> 00:11:28,970 that it kind of becomes fresh again, I don't think there's anything really totally wrong with that. 114 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,320 As you said, different copies have aged differently. 115 00:11:33,590 --> 00:11:36,770 Do you have any thoughts as to why that might be? 116 00:11:36,770 --> 00:11:39,920 Could there possibly be in different batches of cheese? 117 00:11:40,340 --> 00:11:45,500 Is that something that might have been different? Yeah, I think there's a few factors. 118 00:11:46,820 --> 00:11:51,049 I think the cheese is like chemically engineered, so like almost not even B cheese. 119 00:11:51,050 --> 00:11:54,530 So I feel like it's probably pretty consistent. Yeah, that's a wing. 120 00:11:55,670 --> 00:12:03,520 Yeah. I think the the difference is kind of I made them and then I kept them in different libraries, purchased them at different times. 121 00:12:03,530 --> 00:12:08,900 And I had some in my fridge originally and then I had some not in my fridge originally. 122 00:12:09,470 --> 00:12:11,299 After talking to different conservators, 123 00:12:11,300 --> 00:12:17,690 the best strategy seems to be like it's not the cold that is the most important thing, but it's kind of like the humidity. 124 00:12:18,050 --> 00:12:21,050 So having a lower humidity in an environment, I think. 125 00:12:22,430 --> 00:12:27,410 So some of it is like I wasn't taking as good of care as I could of of these objects, perhaps. 126 00:12:27,770 --> 00:12:32,060 And then I think some of them, like the one at Tufts I know is like really modern. 127 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:40,610 But I think that's because they're librarians so active, bringing this to classes and students coming to the library and, you know, touching it. 128 00:12:41,030 --> 00:12:49,249 And so I think the cheese itself, if it just sat in a room, you know, perfectly sanitary, nothing would happen to it. 129 00:12:49,250 --> 00:12:52,490 But I think it can serve as a little bit of like a petri dish of people. 130 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:59,660 If somehow one of those little, you know, plastic containers has a little, you know, hole and people kind of touch it and move it all the time. 131 00:13:00,380 --> 00:13:05,030 I think that's what can cause that. But I also like that that's the way the book changes. 132 00:13:05,030 --> 00:13:10,849 And, you know, it's interesting how it changes differently in these different places because of the different conditions. 133 00:13:10,850 --> 00:13:17,120 And, you know, probably all books in libraries do that in different libraries, but, you know, you don't see it as much. 134 00:13:17,570 --> 00:13:19,280 And that's really interesting as well. 135 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:27,139 The it's the readers have a role in the destruction process, which is it's actually, like you say, the same thing as any book in the library. 136 00:13:27,140 --> 00:13:33,500 If a book's never read and it fares much better many hundreds of years than the ones that are super popular, 137 00:13:33,650 --> 00:13:41,390 and the kind of accessibility versus kind of preservation is, I guess, something that we think about with every object. 138 00:13:41,570 --> 00:13:46,760 Yeah. Yeah. And I suppose it does those come up with teaching a fair amount. 139 00:13:46,820 --> 00:13:50,300 Oh yeah. But at the moment it's quite nice that it's in that exhibition. 140 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:57,110 But behind glass it is super accessible in one sense because members of the public 141 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:02,070 from all walks of life are going through and it's sparking something for them. 142 00:14:02,110 --> 00:14:07,079 It's making people ask those questions, but it's not being directly handled at that point. 143 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:15,990 So yes, how we use our books in a teaching collection like this is yeah, obviously does play a part in something alive like a book. 144 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:22,280 And you mentioned that the readers play a part in the book's destruction, but you can also think of it as, you know, 145 00:14:22,670 --> 00:14:31,040 the readers play a part in the books, writing, you know, or the books life in some ways might be like more like co-authorship. 146 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:35,629 Because if someone, you know, brings a little spore of mould that somehow gets in and, you know, 147 00:14:35,630 --> 00:14:42,470 starts the process of growing, I think that's kind of, you know, it's just the book changing and living over time. 148 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:45,049 And I think people probably disagree with that. 149 00:14:45,050 --> 00:14:51,200 But I think, you know, I'm also fascinated by books that have holes from, you know, worms and other things. 150 00:14:51,650 --> 00:14:56,990 And to me, that makes the book really interesting. Like that might be a manuscript that has interesting pictures, 151 00:14:56,990 --> 00:15:01,610 but I wouldn't necessarily care about those pages or that book unless it had that intervention. 152 00:15:02,150 --> 00:15:05,180 And so to me, I think it's more co-authorship, I guess. 153 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,340 Yeah, that's really interesting because in our work in conservation, we're always looking for. 154 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:14,629 Evidence and insect holes and signs of damage from the reader or use of the 155 00:15:14,630 --> 00:15:19,610 book and what that can tell us about the object's life and where it's been. 156 00:15:20,300 --> 00:15:27,140 And as Joe mentioned earlier, we do have some of your other books in our collection made of more traditional materials. 157 00:15:27,620 --> 00:15:33,770 But of course, you do have lots of work from other more unusual things, other foods, for example. 158 00:15:33,950 --> 00:15:40,400 Where have they ended up and do you see them in a similar sort of way that they are these things that are going to be changing and evolving? 159 00:15:41,390 --> 00:15:46,879 Yeah. No, no idea. And some books evolve a little less fast. 160 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:56,120 Like there's a book of Splenda sweeteners that's like Splenda sweetener packets and those, you know, I don't think change quite as quite as rapidly. 161 00:15:56,510 --> 00:16:04,010 But I have a book of kind of five ketchup packets that I actually kind of made and sold at the Whitney Museum Gift Shop, 162 00:16:04,010 --> 00:16:06,979 kind of because I kind of related to an Andy Warhol exhibit. 163 00:16:06,980 --> 00:16:11,900 They were having an indoor hole, filmed himself eating a cheeseburger with Heinz ketchup bottle next to him. 164 00:16:12,410 --> 00:16:16,160 And so this is a book of five Heinz ketchup packets. 165 00:16:16,790 --> 00:16:19,940 And that book kind of. Does it change? 166 00:16:20,150 --> 00:16:25,490 It changes a little bit almost more violently than the cheese book does in the sense that I think 167 00:16:25,490 --> 00:16:32,209 there's still some like active ingredient in ketchup that over time those packets slowly expand. 168 00:16:32,210 --> 00:16:34,610 And again, it depends on the conditions that you're in. 169 00:16:34,610 --> 00:16:42,530 But those I think people bought at the gift shop and I've also kind of sold some like some kind of libraries purchased them as well. 170 00:16:43,070 --> 00:16:49,790 But so a friend of mine kind of had one and she sent me a photo of this book that had kind of one of the ketchup packets had popped, 171 00:16:49,970 --> 00:16:56,210 you know, on her shelf. And there's like a little bit of ketchup running down her shelf out of one of the pages of this book. 172 00:16:58,070 --> 00:16:59,149 But it totally depends. 173 00:16:59,150 --> 00:17:05,720 But that book, like kind of the the book gets pressed opened by the pages, expanding over time and this really interesting way. 174 00:17:06,590 --> 00:17:10,400 And then I made kind of a companion book to the two slices of American cheese, 175 00:17:10,730 --> 00:17:15,410 which is 20 slices of meat and has 20 slices of kind of mortadella deli meat. 176 00:17:15,410 --> 00:17:20,990 And I made this as a visiting artist at the University of Michigan's book Art Studio. 177 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:25,700 And I kind of they have a famous deli there called Zingerman's. 178 00:17:25,700 --> 00:17:30,139 And I kind of went and they showed me all the meats and kind of got different slices of mortadella. 179 00:17:30,140 --> 00:17:35,220 And I and I made this book. And that book obviously has a much, much shorter lifespan. 180 00:17:36,260 --> 00:17:42,480 Did you how many copies of that did you make? I mean, I made a single copy and it was right at the end of COVID. 181 00:17:42,650 --> 00:17:48,229 When it when I made it, we were finding someone at a neighbouring university who has worked in there, 182 00:17:48,230 --> 00:17:53,620 kind of a biology lab where they preserved kind of biological specimens. 183 00:17:53,630 --> 00:18:02,120 And so he was going to, in case it in a clear block of plastics, it could at least be kind of seen, you know, for for a long time. 184 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:09,830 But because of COVID and him getting kicked out of his lab, it became a thing where he tried to do it and is in this kind of backyard garage. 185 00:18:10,190 --> 00:18:14,899 And so it's in a block of resin, but it's not not the best looking at the moment. 186 00:18:14,900 --> 00:18:19,610 So hopefully I'll get back there and go to Zingerman's and make another kind of 187 00:18:19,610 --> 00:18:23,180 edition of the book that we can try and preserve in a slightly different way. 188 00:18:23,790 --> 00:18:27,410 Oh, it's amazing. So what's next? What are you working on right now? 189 00:18:28,250 --> 00:18:39,470 Yeah. So right now I'm working on the the most recent catalogue press book is a book that's going to be called 2222 accidental vanity plates. 190 00:18:39,620 --> 00:18:44,000 And so in the other, cars have license plates. 191 00:18:44,360 --> 00:18:49,700 And in the United States, at least you can kind of it's a combination of letters and numbers, 192 00:18:50,090 --> 00:18:54,380 and people can pay to have their license plate say something, you know, funny. 193 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,520 But there are a lot that are just kind of random combinations of letters and numbers, 194 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:04,429 because often the letters are in three letter chunks that accidentally say something. 195 00:19:04,430 --> 00:19:08,510 So they'll be a license plate that's like to cap, you know, 46. 196 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:13,910 And, you know, it's something that this person didn't pay for. It's just the random luck of the draw. 197 00:19:14,390 --> 00:19:21,080 And I've been collecting photos of these and I'm going to compile them in a book as a catalogue because I'm interested in this kind of, 198 00:19:21,380 --> 00:19:25,190 you know, finding meaning out there in the world by looking at these things. 199 00:19:25,670 --> 00:19:29,240 Amazing. We look forward to that. Yeah. Thank you so much. 200 00:19:29,360 --> 00:19:34,920 Yeah. Thanks so much for inviting me on. It's so exciting that, you know, this book is is there and, you know, 201 00:19:35,090 --> 00:19:39,139 it's getting shown to people and it's, you know, starting conversations around what is a book. 202 00:19:39,140 --> 00:19:47,150 So I just feel honoured to. Thanks again. We hope you've enjoyed listening to this episode of Blackness. 203 00:19:47,300 --> 00:19:50,780 Follow the link in the podcast information to see photos of toe slices. 204 00:19:51,140 --> 00:19:53,840 And if you're in Oxford before the 4th of December 2022, 205 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:57,890 you can see the book in real life as part of the Sensational Books exhibition at the Western Library. 206 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:02,180 Join us next time when we'll be talking to Yoder Dimitriou about her work to you. 207 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,900 Book that is printed with ink which responds to the touch of the reader. 208 00:20:06,740 --> 00:20:07,430 See you then.