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Hello and welcome to Bonus. This is the final podcast in the series.

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I'm Alison Stewart. And today we are joined by book conservator and Ph.D. candidate Justine Corvino.

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Hello, Justine. Hi. Hi, Joe. So in our previous episodes, we've been speaking to the makers of some of the hottest books in the collection.

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But this one, we thought we'd finish saying a little bit different because Justine is actually researching an artist book as part of her Ph.D.

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So we thought we'd start just by asking you to introduce yourself a little bit.

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We were previously colleagues when you worked here in the conservation team at the Bodleian.

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And but now you've moved on something quite different.

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So would you be able to tell us a little bit about your research topic before we start talking about Agrippa?

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Yes, of course. Thank you. It is. And yes, as you mentioned, we're actually in conservation.

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And I am a conservator by training. And now we're doing a Ph.D. at the University of Cambridge and in partnership with the Brazilian Navy.

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So this is how we have the link between all of this going on.

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And yes, as is a big unknown at every bat of the bed.

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And that was made in 1992 by the publisher, the artist Dennis Agbo, and the writer William Gibson.

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And they use this Ph.D. as a case study for a wider research on Duke Farms.

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And actually the many farms that books can exist in from basically analogue, including the cortex, from book to digital.

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And so, yes, and in time, we bet as a case study and I use the two copies of the book and the publisher's

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archives at that at the battalion since 2011 as my men resources for the.

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And I did mention and this is a partnership with the woodland and the University of Cambridge and doing

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what we called an HRC collaborative doctoral work between the Nixon institution and the university.

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And just to say we are joining Justin remotely at the moment.

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We are in Oxford and you are in Cambridge. Exactly.

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And the reason they're being of, you know, both what's going on, we just could have a word with both places as well as my book on my book,

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like my case study itself, that is both analogue and digital and combines different sorts of media.

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And when you were in Oxford a few weeks ago, we were lucky enough to be able to look at the audience copies of A with You.

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But for our listeners, we are hoping to be able to describe what it's like physically and how the book's made up.

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Sure. And so yes. So I agree that Book of the Dead is actually an image, a composite made of a box containing codex containing a diskette.

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Yes, it does get a floppy disk. And so maybe some of our people in the audience listening would be like, I haven't seen it in 30 years.

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So yes. And so I mentioned three things box codex, diskette.

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And actually,

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I'm going to start with the diskette and go back to the books because that all ties together with the story that is inside the disk description.

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So as I said, there is a right to could have rights to this project and it is William Gibson and there is a science fiction writer.

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We became very careful with how we use that novel in 1984.

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And for this project, William Gibson works and we'll talk about graphic components.

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But him and his family and and this poem, which I'm happy to do a bit more later on, is enclosed inside the diskette.

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The diskette itself is deposited in the cabinets cavity in the last section of the analogue textbook.

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And. In the text block mirroring the text of Gibson, which we can get there on.

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There are illustrations by Denise Ashbrook.

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Then this is an artist who was one of the first ones to experiment with DNA and the

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barcode making pattern of the DNA radiograph in the eighties and early nineties.

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And so as far as this visiting group did some illustrations, you made some illustration, the etching, that's the contents of Gibson's phone.

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And we can talk about exactly how the connection between both the media and the content of

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the illustration and the text later on is one but all together and that combined diskette and

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then a textbook and book inside this box that I first mentioned as being the first thing that

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represents Acrobat and these books is actually a reproduction in Fiberglas of a photo album.

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And all I could actually to add from from the early 20th century was basically a label was

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agreed by it was the name of this photo album and albums had names and this one was everywhere.

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And it all goes back to actually Gibson's poem that I first mentioned about his family,

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because this album is a production of the album that Gibson had formed in his family home, and it is basically how he came to think about this poem.

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And so together you have this kind of like this again, neck of the tree, and here's the books that represent the photo album.

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And then of course, exquisite images of as well, just waiting to get some enclose in the diskette, soaking wet before driving.

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So it's a cycle and I wonder if you could just explain a little bit more about particularly the box and how the other elements around say,

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for example,

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the shroud and the textile, how they kind of the materials use that and how you have the reader has to experience them to get into the book.

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Yes. So basically when they open the box, you see that the books and as we mentioned,

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so it's not like one book and two editions of this book is more than the deluxe edition the and

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has a copy of the objects edition and a copy of this edition in the two editions had a box

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inside the box the way the makers wanted to be because then maybe even get into what are the

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differences between the copies than the way they were in the book to be ways to have the books.

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You open it and you see inside a book that is wrapped into a shrug, kind of made of cloth.

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It makes mac and cheese glass and it is a guide.

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And depending on which could reside in different corners and the one end of wood,

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anything in burgundy and then one or two and basically is actually reds resting at the base of the box.

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So the base of the track is again made of corrugated cardboard that has a when it comes at time

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and which is actually true to put like layers of paints and of values that kind of mimic it.

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Can those rest elements how you can can have some kind of resting aspect.

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So it's kind of scanned directly to the painting and then is resting in its shroud and is or and physically and relating to the home.

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And Posey's idea that we can get into later on that is and express both via the film and the restrictions of DNA and where do we come from?

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Where do we go and and ageing and decay.

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Yeah. Just the box itself will sit before you pick it up and you feel the weight.

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It looks age. It looks. It is big object.

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It's very theatrical. It is very good.

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And actually the book opens like in there in landscape format because if people if they want to visualise it, it is a full time.

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And so usually, for example, I'm opening an escape from it.

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And so, yes, the book is a fibreglass reproduction of this early 20th century photo album sold by the company Kodak at the time.

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And so, yes, it's a fibreglass reproduction of and basically, yes, an old photo album made of air and the outside.

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So I think it's fair to say that all the material choices do very much follow into the concept and what they're trying to express.

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Yeah, really, it's a it's a nice thing, but ageing and decay.

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And the publisher, the artist and writer getting together to use the joint to express or decides.

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Yes. From the mentality of every compliment or the actor's book.

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And she's really come back to some of them maybe projects.

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This one book is integral to the story that to basically everybody is conveying which is a story that self-destructs.

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So yeah. Obviously Agrippa is constantly concerned the ideas of ageing and decay.

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So I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the main ways it does age and decay,

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starting perhaps with the physical deterioration and the physical changes that happen to the the materials of the book,

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which is deliberately part of what these groups wanted to happen.

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Exactly. And making this where actually shouldn't they create to a point that there is a difference

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between it says is self-destruction of every back to decay due to the decay of its materials.

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That is like more concern about how we are more towards conservation and preventive aspects of the things which we do in their library,

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such as in Berlin. And the self-destructive intent of its makers.

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So as I said,

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it is and that is book and can because was a publisher of rare books and I was lucky enough to interview him last year in 2021 and again when we

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took together the and mentioned the kind of it was for example that he selected five we baths and then the paper is penned with President Putin.

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Right. So we have to keep in mind that this is a book that is produced in, you know, like forever publishing.

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So it's made of materials originally.

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And so which means that this matters in terms of what we would consider decay.

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And they cope with it pretty well because inside they don't carry things as as acidic component.

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But at the same time, there is this self-destructive intent of the tree makers, and that's how they wanted their books to be read for destruction.

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So it's really a process of creating something for destruction.

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And that's, in a way, mirrors the making of all our books.

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And the self-destructive intent of the maker is mostly visible in two ways.

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And in analogy, if we continue with the back of the book and as I mentioned, there is this as well, it was somebody experimenting with a DNA.

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And there what you did for this project is that it actually produced etchings that are disappearing.

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And how did you do that when there is a first layer of Ecuador copper etching and that represents the backward pattern.

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President of the fruit fly when is said to quit when an offer would land on something rotten.

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So yes. So I guess, you know, from Shakespeare to everybody, everything in the book.

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And so there is.

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Yes. And then such rule printed in equities, etching the DNA of the fruit fly on top of this DNA pattern of the fruit fly.

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And there is and those are a print that is an older print and that is actually made of carbon ink.

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And so in that tablet ink, Twitter is not fixed.

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That is taken out of print.

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So the oral print again represents the news from the time of the poem that Gibson is writing,

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but actually images or advertising and stuff like that and that or printed but not fakes,

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which means that the illustrations over time, the offsets and the edges and page.

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So that's kind of a note to indicate that there is a district intentionally or rather the catalyst for that destruction is activated by us,

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the reader. And that's where really every page an interesting book that questions.

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Then maybe the first thing that somebody strikes.

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What does it mean? Actually, what the question is, what do we do to quit?

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Do we do we spook when we read them because we're they're ideas.

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Codex And then there are critics of digital OLEDs interacting with the metal of the artefacts.

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And as we know, when you leave a page, you can maybe make a crease or something, but then when you leave the image and if you touch etchings,

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when you really remove some of the mentality of the etching of the disciple of the over print, which is made of carbon ink.

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So that is how it just tracks in and out of and and then there is a digital component and then into 92 Macintosh computer properties.

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Well, thank you, Justine. And I was just wondering if we can now move into the digital realm and you can explain a little

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bit more about the concept behind the floppy disk and how that was conceptualised and created.

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Yes. And so we have to remember the early nineties or the sequencing of the DNA was

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very new and we talked about this already visiting the Internet was very new.

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And so the time and its properties, quite the state of the art and new forms of media from the maker.

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And so I think more than. This idea of the day for my goods, people are kind of wondering, will that be a book, you know,

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and such as I can and then a book, something with the physicality in there in digital.

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And they're questioning that. And so they came up with this floppy disk and then it self-destructs in their way.

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That is very practical. And that was very well described by Quinn in 2012.

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And in an article that you would following and consistency organised and the interest took time to get cracking that code.

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And then so you have to think of the Premier William Gibson.

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As actually when you read it so you don't script and there is the program is in the premise encrypted so as to basically release itself.

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And once it's released, you can read it and the word the essence inexorably towards the back of the screen of your computer,

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and that you cannot stop it. It was made to that.

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It was the release itself or the read.

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And then you will not be able to stop it.

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And on top of it, there was another layer of programming,

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and that was basically made so that when you would reach the end of the the 300 and to nine phones each,

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20 minutes, the reading of it, and when you would have reached the end of the disk, it will actually look on itself and it would look out of view.

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So the form itself, as it was shown in the Vatican, goes in self-destruct, but just basically everything in sight and out of view.

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And yes, there was indication and of course, you're going to see.

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But how this you know and you know that that the poem is going to talk of the screen and and how there's,

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you know, that you cannot stop the reading of the poem because the yes, we are in 2022.

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I don't have a magic touch computer on hand.

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We said it was a book that is actually pretty rare.

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Yes. I was not to even you know, that's both of my free copy of everything.

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And they always said distract myself from reading it.

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And so various things. Basically,

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we should say that everything was hacked right from the start and I think then we go back later and we can speak about them because in terms of us,

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what they wanted to do with them and we should say that that was present through hacking and from the start the night of the nine December,

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an incident to do it. And it was actually filmed with Kubrick's two camera recording and then exquisite pretend and then it forms.

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And then this film was carried, you know, for these forums and to us.

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So it was a stressed manner that it was actually hacked and preserved at the same time and read.

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And that's how we think of it, which is beautiful.

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We're to invite everyone to read it because now I have.

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How are you going to read it? You are a computer scientist.

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Well, you have a version of this 157 event on YouTube.

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So if you Google episodes of The Dead from running intimidation,

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you would see it appear on your computer screen as if you were looking at the 1992 Macintosh computer screen.

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And it's great. And of course, now you can stop it.

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But I would invite you to not stuff it. And there would a different form of Gibson that is itself amazing,

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both in how we describes the mentality of the photo album itself and how it can be nearer

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than when you go to a university library and those our collection that have this book,

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when you look at the photo fibreglass and photo album reproduction, for example,

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at the button when you Xbox and then after how you display as of maturity and the girlfriend these family

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history to actually set how you became an author or as you said in the film how he was not the writer.

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So let's move on to talk straightaway then about the intention of the author and the authors as you see it.

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And there seem to be a couple of kind of competing ideas here.

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They've created a work that's on a quality paper, but then they've intentionally printed the illustrations in a way that means that they won't

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last and they've created the self corrupting disk that then it's been hacked straight away.

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So actually. That's not acting as a preventive for people reading the poem.

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People don't have to make that decision, that difficult decision about whether to play the disc or not to do this.

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Do you think that they intended to be read, do you think?

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How do you think that they would feel about coming into a public institution like lesbian?

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Okay. Yes and yes and yes.

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Basically, they tend to be red in the sense that it was kind of an invitation to maybe and

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Gibson's people are reading Gibson and work actually to essentially crack the code.

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So it's kind of, you know, kind of accepting to kind of play by their.

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Duke is the role of the Duke, and they're reading the poem.

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And so, yes, they knew the book.

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The digital component of it would be cracked and eventually as early as the launch event should be not.

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But now, finally, they were fine with it.

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It wasn't part of the project, and it was not a move that was made actually against its reader more.

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And that was made to, as I said earlier and and questions the idea of reading that invitation to

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actually read the book and understand how you act upon the mentality of the book,

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how you can preserve it and this and that and kind of remove elements of it.

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And how this may be interpreted actually, which is very interesting.

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And then women went for doing what their research and the preservation and conservation institutions.

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So yes, they had an inkling shooting things and did read this book made for and and then are just so enamoured

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with Ted 200% magician Grayson when giving Vegas himself donated these matters to the archive.

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So I think they were fine with it.

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And yes,

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when they produced the book in 1992 and there was huge advertising and they

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rebuffed and as much as it was an advertising success because of this book,

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which is about what's going to happen, etc., which was also an economic failure because and these editions and to work a

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very effective thing that they wouldn't have ever known at such a high prices.

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And I guess we have this book. We want you to take responsibility for it.

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How does it work? We're going to read it and basically find ways for people to question and concepts of access to books and ownership of books.

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So I guess right now it is a key part of the story as I read it in the end, and it ends in the university library.

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It's called as I've been researching it. So it's kind of the path of the project reading and writing about it and still and seeing how it can

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be very much a timely measure that self-destructs not only with the 1992 sets of images of these kids,

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but kind of making you more aware of exactly what books as objects do you think they intended to make a book or a work of art or.

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Yes. So what they think they need to make was actually formative reading.

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So something in between can ever be like that.

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And I'm finishing the summer.

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So I think clearly we can see how these books derive from and the works that were already

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made in the sixties and to mentor your movement using bad genetics and the sixties movement,

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but also how much it is to act as book.

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Indeed, that is to know everything that says like an author, illustrated by an artist.

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And so I think a lot of it is really insight as the reader.

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So back in the centre of the story and the.

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Together, producing this kind of piece of performative writings, reading a and a masterpiece, using many different copies of the book.

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Could you just briefly talk to us about differences between them and also about have any is the he's been read of any of the copies of the diskettes,

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either in general or personal collections?

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Have they been been read and destroyed? Yes.

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So there is around every aspect in Nico Jerry's, and it's part of the mystery.

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And that's in this case. And it's unknown how many copies of the book, because basically, as we mentioned,

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the critical issues finishing the project and there are making of money basically, and it is their needs.

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And how many of these were produced? And there is an ad that we share.

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What do you mean? Identify that maybe they were about to do copies of the that produce.

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When you look exactly at the physical objects and how basically the bigger quantities, things like that.

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So but in my case, and how many copies of the book have identified so far?

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17 and in private and three in connection with family connections and those in the UK that could be in the borderlands.

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But there is also one that is a Vivienne and they're all doing copies, most of them.

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And in the USA of the 50 collections at least one of them are in the US.

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And it's really interesting to look at the different copies and surveying and because my end

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actually and again beyond just kind of like famous or infamous in the sense of the self move,

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that could be very something that would have been great for webcomics, something like that.

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And there is a whole concept of how it works and when you actually do it,

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some of these are printed book and how from looking to the various cookies of abuse and that

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some of the cookies may have and how basically they are different are similar all together.

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What you obtain is not to finish code but actually book projects again in the making.

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And my views and I believe that is that when you combine all that together,

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you get a sense of actually the agreement as the author wanted to add, to be in there.

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You also get a sense of the various stages of production of the book, which is kind of the very privileged aspect of the project,

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because sometimes when you get involved, you don't get to see how many stages, for example, to get into an end X next block.

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And that's why, for example,

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as a way of comparison and the term pages which writing job and in various cookies and I had looked at them Craig's and you should go to the DNA

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and you look at the exhibition that they have there you will see that inside this the inside that and that is textbook there is a floppy disk.

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So this kind of like one of the stage of every back.

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And if you go to the Bodleian, you would see the text, that physicality of David,

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but you wouldn't see the four pages because when you have the majority of what Leon did, you just have it for kids get it.

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So in a way it is how it was when it was idea, which is not a book that is assured, that is missing in that image.

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It is which it was when the end of the collection. And then again, if you look to the centre hubcaps in New York,

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you would see another copy of the deluxe edition where actually the text block, the left side of it is not carved out.

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So no floppy disk, no carving.

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And when you put them together because you can have this kind of like kind of like network of conditions of what does it look like?

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All together.

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So yeah, and I think that the book consists of all of the copies of the book, but also something that isn't in any of the copies of the book.

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Exactly. And so it's kind of. Yeah.

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So that's where I am. I saw what I was looking at in my research.

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And it's not that it's not it was never in the book itself and that our interaction with what's there and what is not.

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And basically and you know, you ask me, but people are waiting to see me, talk to them and very well to been I mean,

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this kind of people are aware of the artwork in the atrium and the vision and basically this kind of an idea.

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Did anyone that I talk to reading the book, private collectors or public institutions?

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No. But I think and not only because the book, but the copy of the poem is available on the Internet and everybody has access to it.

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But also because I guess it's not exactly the same relationship.

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And there's this kind of sense that. The sketch itself is a relic of Gibson's film.

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And so, you know, you own it. And when it's yours or when it's in the collection and it's own.

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Yes, there's kind of again, you could argue in the mentality of and even if she cannot read it and when you don't

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have it and then having them to take it doesn't mean that there is an aura of,

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you know, what was supposed to be in or what was in maybe at the time.

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So, yes, this can they can and relationship to yeah,

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the way we work physically with the materiality and their the concepts that we pretend it really makes you.

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Oh, fascinating. Thank you, Justine. And so final question, what's next?

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Okay. Yes. Exciting projects. I'm finishing my piece due this year.

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And so in terms of ag repair.

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So, yes, I have an upcoming article in the fantastic journal inscription, The Journal of Metro Text and this spatial issue.

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It said, this issue is on sports and my RC can itself look at the many ways, the metaphors of aquifer foods and foods, an emphasis on themselves.

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And so yes. And and foods and how find them from this forward element.

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You can actually see a variety of books unfolding in with that.

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So, yes, there is that. And so, as we mentioned, this is a partnership with the Berlin.

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And we have in the symposium on the gripper that will be on the afternoon of the 18 and 19th May 2023.

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So they're looking for this is not online yet.

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So watch this space. And it is with the Centre for the Study of the Book at the Berlin and it's in diplomatic text at the University of Cambridge.

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And it would be posted online and through the event. And there.

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Yes.

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All at time, because we have 50 minutes of speakers lined up and and even a hybrid actual organised of the copies of those is best for the occasion.

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And this will be in conjunction with the Met Kirschenbaum Met Kinsey Lecture and the Wooden Neighbours.

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Wow. Fantastic. Thank you so much. We really look forward to seeing you back in Oxford in May, even if not before.

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Yes. Thank you so much for talking to us today.

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Happy birthday. Happy birthday. You're back. Thanks again to just for speaking to us on this, the last episode in this series of goodness.

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As always, if you'd like to see pictures of the book we discussed today,

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please head head over to the centre for the study, the book blog, the conveyer.

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And you can also find all the other episodes in the series that we'd like to thank all the artists,

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librarians and academics who contribute to the series and everybody at the Centre for the Study of the book for making what was possible.

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And thanks to you for listening. Bye for now. Thank you for me.