Hello and welcome to Bonus. This is the final podcast in the series.
I'm Alison Stewart. And today we are joined by book conservator and Ph.D. candidate Justine Corvino.
Hello, Justine. Hi. Hi, Joe. So in our previous episodes, we've been speaking to the makers of some of the hottest books in the collection.
But this one, we thought we'd finish saying a little bit different because Justine is actually researching an artist book as part of her Ph.D.
So we thought we'd start just by asking you to introduce yourself a little bit.
We were previously colleagues when you worked here in the conservation team at the Bodleian.
And but now you've moved on something quite different.
So would you be able to tell us a little bit about your research topic before we start talking about Agrippa?
Yes, of course. Thank you. It is. And yes, as you mentioned, we're actually in conservation.
And I am a conservator by training. And now we're doing a Ph.D. at the University of Cambridge and in partnership with the Brazilian Navy.
So this is how we have the link between all of this going on.
And yes, as is a big unknown at every bat of the bed.
And that was made in 1992 by the publisher, the artist Dennis Agbo, and the writer William Gibson.
And they use this Ph.D. as a case study for a wider research on Duke Farms.
And actually the many farms that books can exist in from basically analogue, including the cortex, from book to digital.
And so, yes, and in time, we bet as a case study and I use the two copies of the book and the publisher's
archives at that at the battalion since 2011 as my men resources for the.
And I did mention and this is a partnership with the woodland and the University of Cambridge and doing
what we called an HRC collaborative doctoral work between the Nixon institution and the university.
And just to say we are joining Justin remotely at the moment.
We are in Oxford and you are in Cambridge. Exactly.
And the reason they're being of, you know, both what's going on, we just could have a word with both places as well as my book on my book,
like my case study itself, that is both analogue and digital and combines different sorts of media.
And when you were in Oxford a few weeks ago, we were lucky enough to be able to look at the audience copies of A with You.
But for our listeners, we are hoping to be able to describe what it's like physically and how the book's made up.
Sure. And so yes. So I agree that Book of the Dead is actually an image, a composite made of a box containing codex containing a diskette.
Yes, it does get a floppy disk. And so maybe some of our people in the audience listening would be like, I haven't seen it in 30 years.
So yes. And so I mentioned three things box codex, diskette.
And actually,
I'm going to start with the diskette and go back to the books because that all ties together with the story that is inside the disk description.
So as I said, there is a right to could have rights to this project and it is William Gibson and there is a science fiction writer.
We became very careful with how we use that novel in 1984.
And for this project, William Gibson works and we'll talk about graphic components.
But him and his family and and this poem, which I'm happy to do a bit more later on, is enclosed inside the diskette.
The diskette itself is deposited in the cabinets cavity in the last section of the analogue textbook.
And. In the text block mirroring the text of Gibson, which we can get there on.
There are illustrations by Denise Ashbrook.
Then this is an artist who was one of the first ones to experiment with DNA and the
barcode making pattern of the DNA radiograph in the eighties and early nineties.
And so as far as this visiting group did some illustrations, you made some illustration, the etching, that's the contents of Gibson's phone.
And we can talk about exactly how the connection between both the media and the content of
the illustration and the text later on is one but all together and that combined diskette and
then a textbook and book inside this box that I first mentioned as being the first thing that
represents Acrobat and these books is actually a reproduction in Fiberglas of a photo album.
And all I could actually to add from from the early 20th century was basically a label was
agreed by it was the name of this photo album and albums had names and this one was everywhere.
And it all goes back to actually Gibson's poem that I first mentioned about his family,
because this album is a production of the album that Gibson had formed in his family home, and it is basically how he came to think about this poem.
And so together you have this kind of like this again, neck of the tree, and here's the books that represent the photo album.
And then of course, exquisite images of as well, just waiting to get some enclose in the diskette, soaking wet before driving.
So it's a cycle and I wonder if you could just explain a little bit more about particularly the box and how the other elements around say,
for example,
the shroud and the textile, how they kind of the materials use that and how you have the reader has to experience them to get into the book.
Yes. So basically when they open the box, you see that the books and as we mentioned,
so it's not like one book and two editions of this book is more than the deluxe edition the and
has a copy of the objects edition and a copy of this edition in the two editions had a box
inside the box the way the makers wanted to be because then maybe even get into what are the
differences between the copies than the way they were in the book to be ways to have the books.
You open it and you see inside a book that is wrapped into a shrug, kind of made of cloth.
It makes mac and cheese glass and it is a guide.
And depending on which could reside in different corners and the one end of wood,
anything in burgundy and then one or two and basically is actually reds resting at the base of the box.
So the base of the track is again made of corrugated cardboard that has a when it comes at time
and which is actually true to put like layers of paints and of values that kind of mimic it.
Can those rest elements how you can can have some kind of resting aspect.
So it's kind of scanned directly to the painting and then is resting in its shroud and is or and physically and relating to the home.
And Posey's idea that we can get into later on that is and express both via the film and the restrictions of DNA and where do we come from?
Where do we go and and ageing and decay.
Yeah. Just the box itself will sit before you pick it up and you feel the weight.
It looks age. It looks. It is big object.
It's very theatrical. It is very good.
And actually the book opens like in there in landscape format because if people if they want to visualise it, it is a full time.
And so usually, for example, I'm opening an escape from it.
And so, yes, the book is a fibreglass reproduction of this early 20th century photo album sold by the company Kodak at the time.
And so, yes, it's a fibreglass reproduction of and basically, yes, an old photo album made of air and the outside.
So I think it's fair to say that all the material choices do very much follow into the concept and what they're trying to express.
Yeah, really, it's a it's a nice thing, but ageing and decay.
And the publisher, the artist and writer getting together to use the joint to express or decides.
Yes. From the mentality of every compliment or the actor's book.
And she's really come back to some of them maybe projects.
This one book is integral to the story that to basically everybody is conveying which is a story that self-destructs.
So yeah. Obviously Agrippa is constantly concerned the ideas of ageing and decay.
So I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the main ways it does age and decay,
starting perhaps with the physical deterioration and the physical changes that happen to the the materials of the book,
which is deliberately part of what these groups wanted to happen.
Exactly. And making this where actually shouldn't they create to a point that there is a difference
between it says is self-destruction of every back to decay due to the decay of its materials.
That is like more concern about how we are more towards conservation and preventive aspects of the things which we do in their library,
such as in Berlin. And the self-destructive intent of its makers.
So as I said,
it is and that is book and can because was a publisher of rare books and I was lucky enough to interview him last year in 2021 and again when we
took together the and mentioned the kind of it was for example that he selected five we baths and then the paper is penned with President Putin.
Right. So we have to keep in mind that this is a book that is produced in, you know, like forever publishing.
So it's made of materials originally.
And so which means that this matters in terms of what we would consider decay.
And they cope with it pretty well because inside they don't carry things as as acidic component.
But at the same time, there is this self-destructive intent of the tree makers, and that's how they wanted their books to be read for destruction.
So it's really a process of creating something for destruction.
And that's, in a way, mirrors the making of all our books.
And the self-destructive intent of the maker is mostly visible in two ways.
And in analogy, if we continue with the back of the book and as I mentioned, there is this as well, it was somebody experimenting with a DNA.
And there what you did for this project is that it actually produced etchings that are disappearing.
And how did you do that when there is a first layer of Ecuador copper etching and that represents the backward pattern.
President of the fruit fly when is said to quit when an offer would land on something rotten.
So yes. So I guess, you know, from Shakespeare to everybody, everything in the book.
And so there is.
Yes. And then such rule printed in equities, etching the DNA of the fruit fly on top of this DNA pattern of the fruit fly.
And there is and those are a print that is an older print and that is actually made of carbon ink.
And so in that tablet ink, Twitter is not fixed.
That is taken out of print.
So the oral print again represents the news from the time of the poem that Gibson is writing,
but actually images or advertising and stuff like that and that or printed but not fakes,
which means that the illustrations over time, the offsets and the edges and page.
So that's kind of a note to indicate that there is a district intentionally or rather the catalyst for that destruction is activated by us,
the reader. And that's where really every page an interesting book that questions.
Then maybe the first thing that somebody strikes.
What does it mean? Actually, what the question is, what do we do to quit?
Do we do we spook when we read them because we're they're ideas.
Codex And then there are critics of digital OLEDs interacting with the metal of the artefacts.
And as we know, when you leave a page, you can maybe make a crease or something, but then when you leave the image and if you touch etchings,
when you really remove some of the mentality of the etching of the disciple of the over print, which is made of carbon ink.
So that is how it just tracks in and out of and and then there is a digital component and then into 92 Macintosh computer properties.
Well, thank you, Justine. And I was just wondering if we can now move into the digital realm and you can explain a little
bit more about the concept behind the floppy disk and how that was conceptualised and created.
Yes. And so we have to remember the early nineties or the sequencing of the DNA was
very new and we talked about this already visiting the Internet was very new.
And so the time and its properties, quite the state of the art and new forms of media from the maker.
And so I think more than. This idea of the day for my goods, people are kind of wondering, will that be a book, you know,
and such as I can and then a book, something with the physicality in there in digital.
And they're questioning that. And so they came up with this floppy disk and then it self-destructs in their way.
That is very practical. And that was very well described by Quinn in 2012.
And in an article that you would following and consistency organised and the interest took time to get cracking that code.
And then so you have to think of the Premier William Gibson.
As actually when you read it so you don't script and there is the program is in the premise encrypted so as to basically release itself.
And once it's released, you can read it and the word the essence inexorably towards the back of the screen of your computer,
and that you cannot stop it. It was made to that.
It was the release itself or the read.
And then you will not be able to stop it.
And on top of it, there was another layer of programming,
and that was basically made so that when you would reach the end of the the 300 and to nine phones each,
20 minutes, the reading of it, and when you would have reached the end of the disk, it will actually look on itself and it would look out of view.
So the form itself, as it was shown in the Vatican, goes in self-destruct, but just basically everything in sight and out of view.
And yes, there was indication and of course, you're going to see.
But how this you know and you know that that the poem is going to talk of the screen and and how there's,
you know, that you cannot stop the reading of the poem because the yes, we are in 2022.
I don't have a magic touch computer on hand.
We said it was a book that is actually pretty rare.
Yes. I was not to even you know, that's both of my free copy of everything.
And they always said distract myself from reading it.
And so various things. Basically,
we should say that everything was hacked right from the start and I think then we go back later and we can speak about them because in terms of us,
what they wanted to do with them and we should say that that was present through hacking and from the start the night of the nine December,
an incident to do it. And it was actually filmed with Kubrick's two camera recording and then exquisite pretend and then it forms.
And then this film was carried, you know, for these forums and to us.
So it was a stressed manner that it was actually hacked and preserved at the same time and read.
And that's how we think of it, which is beautiful.
We're to invite everyone to read it because now I have.
How are you going to read it? You are a computer scientist.
Well, you have a version of this 157 event on YouTube.
So if you Google episodes of The Dead from running intimidation,
you would see it appear on your computer screen as if you were looking at the 1992 Macintosh computer screen.
And it's great. And of course, now you can stop it.
But I would invite you to not stuff it. And there would a different form of Gibson that is itself amazing,
both in how we describes the mentality of the photo album itself and how it can be nearer
than when you go to a university library and those our collection that have this book,
when you look at the photo fibreglass and photo album reproduction, for example,
at the button when you Xbox and then after how you display as of maturity and the girlfriend these family
history to actually set how you became an author or as you said in the film how he was not the writer.
So let's move on to talk straightaway then about the intention of the author and the authors as you see it.
And there seem to be a couple of kind of competing ideas here.
They've created a work that's on a quality paper, but then they've intentionally printed the illustrations in a way that means that they won't
last and they've created the self corrupting disk that then it's been hacked straight away.
So actually. That's not acting as a preventive for people reading the poem.
People don't have to make that decision, that difficult decision about whether to play the disc or not to do this.
Do you think that they intended to be read, do you think?
How do you think that they would feel about coming into a public institution like lesbian?
Okay. Yes and yes and yes.
Basically, they tend to be red in the sense that it was kind of an invitation to maybe and
Gibson's people are reading Gibson and work actually to essentially crack the code.
So it's kind of, you know, kind of accepting to kind of play by their.
Duke is the role of the Duke, and they're reading the poem.
And so, yes, they knew the book.
The digital component of it would be cracked and eventually as early as the launch event should be not.
But now, finally, they were fine with it.
It wasn't part of the project, and it was not a move that was made actually against its reader more.
And that was made to, as I said earlier and and questions the idea of reading that invitation to
actually read the book and understand how you act upon the mentality of the book,
how you can preserve it and this and that and kind of remove elements of it.
And how this may be interpreted actually, which is very interesting.
And then women went for doing what their research and the preservation and conservation institutions.
So yes, they had an inkling shooting things and did read this book made for and and then are just so enamoured
with Ted 200% magician Grayson when giving Vegas himself donated these matters to the archive.
So I think they were fine with it.
And yes,
when they produced the book in 1992 and there was huge advertising and they
rebuffed and as much as it was an advertising success because of this book,
which is about what's going to happen, etc., which was also an economic failure because and these editions and to work a
very effective thing that they wouldn't have ever known at such a high prices.
And I guess we have this book. We want you to take responsibility for it.
How does it work? We're going to read it and basically find ways for people to question and concepts of access to books and ownership of books.
So I guess right now it is a key part of the story as I read it in the end, and it ends in the university library.
It's called as I've been researching it. So it's kind of the path of the project reading and writing about it and still and seeing how it can
be very much a timely measure that self-destructs not only with the 1992 sets of images of these kids,
but kind of making you more aware of exactly what books as objects do you think they intended to make a book or a work of art or.
Yes. So what they think they need to make was actually formative reading.
So something in between can ever be like that.
And I'm finishing the summer.
So I think clearly we can see how these books derive from and the works that were already
made in the sixties and to mentor your movement using bad genetics and the sixties movement,
but also how much it is to act as book.
Indeed, that is to know everything that says like an author, illustrated by an artist.
And so I think a lot of it is really insight as the reader.
So back in the centre of the story and the.
Together, producing this kind of piece of performative writings, reading a and a masterpiece, using many different copies of the book.
Could you just briefly talk to us about differences between them and also about have any is the he's been read of any of the copies of the diskettes,
either in general or personal collections?
Have they been been read and destroyed? Yes.
So there is around every aspect in Nico Jerry's, and it's part of the mystery.
And that's in this case. And it's unknown how many copies of the book, because basically, as we mentioned,
the critical issues finishing the project and there are making of money basically, and it is their needs.
And how many of these were produced? And there is an ad that we share.
What do you mean? Identify that maybe they were about to do copies of the that produce.
When you look exactly at the physical objects and how basically the bigger quantities, things like that.
So but in my case, and how many copies of the book have identified so far?
17 and in private and three in connection with family connections and those in the UK that could be in the borderlands.
But there is also one that is a Vivienne and they're all doing copies, most of them.
And in the USA of the 50 collections at least one of them are in the US.
And it's really interesting to look at the different copies and surveying and because my end
actually and again beyond just kind of like famous or infamous in the sense of the self move,
that could be very something that would have been great for webcomics, something like that.
And there is a whole concept of how it works and when you actually do it,
some of these are printed book and how from looking to the various cookies of abuse and that
some of the cookies may have and how basically they are different are similar all together.
What you obtain is not to finish code but actually book projects again in the making.
And my views and I believe that is that when you combine all that together,
you get a sense of actually the agreement as the author wanted to add, to be in there.
You also get a sense of the various stages of production of the book, which is kind of the very privileged aspect of the project,
because sometimes when you get involved, you don't get to see how many stages, for example, to get into an end X next block.
And that's why, for example,
as a way of comparison and the term pages which writing job and in various cookies and I had looked at them Craig's and you should go to the DNA
and you look at the exhibition that they have there you will see that inside this the inside that and that is textbook there is a floppy disk.
So this kind of like one of the stage of every back.
And if you go to the Bodleian, you would see the text, that physicality of David,
but you wouldn't see the four pages because when you have the majority of what Leon did, you just have it for kids get it.
So in a way it is how it was when it was idea, which is not a book that is assured, that is missing in that image.
It is which it was when the end of the collection. And then again, if you look to the centre hubcaps in New York,
you would see another copy of the deluxe edition where actually the text block, the left side of it is not carved out.
So no floppy disk, no carving.
And when you put them together because you can have this kind of like kind of like network of conditions of what does it look like?
All together.
So yeah, and I think that the book consists of all of the copies of the book, but also something that isn't in any of the copies of the book.
Exactly. And so it's kind of. Yeah.
So that's where I am. I saw what I was looking at in my research.
And it's not that it's not it was never in the book itself and that our interaction with what's there and what is not.
And basically and you know, you ask me, but people are waiting to see me, talk to them and very well to been I mean,
this kind of people are aware of the artwork in the atrium and the vision and basically this kind of an idea.
Did anyone that I talk to reading the book, private collectors or public institutions?
No. But I think and not only because the book, but the copy of the poem is available on the Internet and everybody has access to it.
But also because I guess it's not exactly the same relationship.
And there's this kind of sense that. The sketch itself is a relic of Gibson's film.
And so, you know, you own it. And when it's yours or when it's in the collection and it's own.
Yes, there's kind of again, you could argue in the mentality of and even if she cannot read it and when you don't
have it and then having them to take it doesn't mean that there is an aura of,
you know, what was supposed to be in or what was in maybe at the time.
So, yes, this can they can and relationship to yeah,
the way we work physically with the materiality and their the concepts that we pretend it really makes you.
Oh, fascinating. Thank you, Justine. And so final question, what's next?
Okay. Yes. Exciting projects. I'm finishing my piece due this year.
And so in terms of ag repair.
So, yes, I have an upcoming article in the fantastic journal inscription, The Journal of Metro Text and this spatial issue.
It said, this issue is on sports and my RC can itself look at the many ways, the metaphors of aquifer foods and foods, an emphasis on themselves.
And so yes. And and foods and how find them from this forward element.
You can actually see a variety of books unfolding in with that.
So, yes, there is that. And so, as we mentioned, this is a partnership with the Berlin.
And we have in the symposium on the gripper that will be on the afternoon of the 18 and 19th May 2023.
So they're looking for this is not online yet.
So watch this space. And it is with the Centre for the Study of the Book at the Berlin and it's in diplomatic text at the University of Cambridge.
And it would be posted online and through the event. And there.
Yes.
All at time, because we have 50 minutes of speakers lined up and and even a hybrid actual organised of the copies of those is best for the occasion.
And this will be in conjunction with the Met Kirschenbaum Met Kinsey Lecture and the Wooden Neighbours.
Wow. Fantastic. Thank you so much. We really look forward to seeing you back in Oxford in May, even if not before.
Yes. Thank you so much for talking to us today.
Happy birthday. Happy birthday. You're back. Thanks again to just for speaking to us on this, the last episode in this series of goodness.
As always, if you'd like to see pictures of the book we discussed today,
please head head over to the centre for the study, the book blog, the conveyer.
And you can also find all the other episodes in the series that we'd like to thank all the artists,
librarians and academics who contribute to the series and everybody at the Centre for the Study of the book for making what was possible.
And thanks to you for listening. Bye for now. Thank you for me.