1 00:00:05,730 --> 00:00:10,020 Hello and welcome back to Bookmarks, a podcast brought to you by the Bellevue Centre for the study. 2 00:00:10,020 --> 00:00:13,740 The book I am Joe Maddocks, aerobics librarian here at Odeon. 3 00:00:14,100 --> 00:00:21,120 And I'm Alice Evans, a book conservator in this season of fitness with thinking about pop up and movable artist books. 4 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:25,620 And today we're joined by graphic designer Kevin Steele. Kevin, it's lovely to meet you. 5 00:00:25,650 --> 00:00:30,630 It's a very sunny afternoon here in Oxford where you joining us from today? 6 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:35,400 It is very sunny here, too. I live in Atlanta, Georgia, in the States. 7 00:00:35,700 --> 00:00:42,000 Very nice. So, Kevin, we start each podcast by asking the book artist to describe their work. 8 00:00:42,480 --> 00:00:48,240 And as we currently have your work, the movable book platforms on display as part of our aspects, a live exhibition at the Body. 9 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:53,070 And we'd like to ask you to start the podcast by describing this for us, please. 10 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:58,590 Sure. So the book we're talking about today is called The Movable Book of Letter Forms. 11 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:12,210 It was a small edition of three books, and it's meant as a introduction to typography students or anyone interested in type in graphic design. 12 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:19,350 And it gives sort of a basic overview of letter forms and their history, their anatomy, their origins, 13 00:01:19,350 --> 00:01:24,390 and how they're used and their spacing and their the shapes and how they work together. 14 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:31,200 The book is it comes in a a box that is flocked to the floor. 15 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:37,440 So it's very soft to to handle. And then the book cover itself is also in the Lords. 16 00:01:37,620 --> 00:01:44,550 It's a book that's meant to be handled, hence why it's kind of pleasant to to hold and to feel. 17 00:01:45,090 --> 00:01:48,210 There's about ten, I think 11 spreads in the book. 18 00:01:48,510 --> 00:01:54,690 Each one addresses a different topic related to letter forms and typography. 19 00:01:54,990 --> 00:02:02,160 It kind of starts with history and then it goes into some sort of nomenclature and anatomy. 20 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:08,340 It goes into how letters are formed together to create words, 21 00:02:08,850 --> 00:02:15,240 and then it goes into some differences about how you might compare one typeface to another typeface, 22 00:02:15,780 --> 00:02:22,499 and then ultimately gets into slightly more complicated things about variations of typefaces, 23 00:02:22,500 --> 00:02:28,380 how you can alter them for various reasons, and then talks about some different categories of typefaces. 24 00:02:28,830 --> 00:02:39,659 And, you know, I created the book as a tool to help convey information, as a as a graphic designer. 25 00:02:39,660 --> 00:02:43,170 We have lots of different tools at our disposal. 26 00:02:43,170 --> 00:02:48,120 We can use, you know, illustrations, imagery, colour. 27 00:02:48,900 --> 00:02:50,990 We can use paper or technology. 28 00:02:51,000 --> 00:03:01,680 And so for me, the ability to have components in a book that can move or you can interact with was just another tool in my toolbox. 29 00:03:02,250 --> 00:03:05,010 I when I was creating this book, 30 00:03:05,010 --> 00:03:17,760 I was looking at a lot of early examples of printed books back to the 16th century and earlier where people were using moving parts on a page, 31 00:03:18,660 --> 00:03:23,700 not for entertainment or for visual flash, but for practical reasons to help convey information. 32 00:03:24,630 --> 00:03:32,040 So there's books about anatomy, astronomy, mathematics, etc. that use these moving parts to help communicate something. 33 00:03:32,460 --> 00:03:35,550 And I was really inspired by that for this particular work. 34 00:03:35,550 --> 00:03:42,390 So I tried to be very strategic in how the different pieces move or come off the page to help communicate something. 35 00:03:42,420 --> 00:03:45,120 Most of these are pretty basic concepts, 36 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:51,300 but I thought a little a little extra something on the page could more clearly explain some of that information. 37 00:03:53,640 --> 00:04:00,480 Could you talk us through your design process? How did you go about choosing and making the different types of the pop ups, the ease and the book? 38 00:04:01,530 --> 00:04:04,680 I think I started with really kind of dissecting that. 39 00:04:05,460 --> 00:04:08,160 The information that I wanted to include in the book. 40 00:04:08,670 --> 00:04:16,770 And then I was searching for simple mechanisms and movements that could help convey some of that information. 41 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:24,059 So the very first spread that that gives some historical context for what we know is the Roman alphabet. 42 00:04:24,060 --> 00:04:29,639 It just sort of talks you through how people first started to write with pictographs, 43 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:37,680 you know, pictures of animals and other things to help communicate something or tell a story. 44 00:04:38,130 --> 00:04:43,380 And as those cultures started trading with one another, they borrowed the symbols. 45 00:04:43,860 --> 00:04:55,020 And depending on the direction that those cultures wrote or the instruments that they wrote with, those shapes started to rotate and change. 46 00:04:55,470 --> 00:05:05,580 And so the example that's explained in the book is how the Phoenicians had a symbol for an ox, an ox head, and as they later traded with Greeks, 47 00:05:05,580 --> 00:05:07,470 and then that was later traded with the Romans, 48 00:05:07,890 --> 00:05:16,980 that symbol of an ox head eventually rotated 180 degrees so that it looks like what we know as a capital upright Roman a. 49 00:05:17,430 --> 00:05:23,100 And so the device on the page is of those owl, which is a rotating disk. 50 00:05:23,460 --> 00:05:25,440 So as you read the text on the left side, 51 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:32,880 you can rotate this disk and it shows how each of these cultures rotated it in a different direction to the eight that we know today. 52 00:05:33,180 --> 00:05:42,999 So I tried to apply that same sort of dissection of the information I was trying to convey and then what device or mechanism, 53 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,860 what would best help convey that information to the reader? 54 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:49,250 Thank you. 55 00:05:49,850 --> 00:05:57,770 I've been thinking about pop up books in terms of what's hidden and what's revealed, and I think those are very private when they're closed. 56 00:05:57,770 --> 00:06:02,149 But when they open up, they do so more than a normal book does. 57 00:06:02,150 --> 00:06:08,270 More than the kind of stuff equipped us. I wonder if you have any thoughts about that. 58 00:06:09,950 --> 00:06:14,900 I think movable books definitely have a sense of discovery about them because 59 00:06:15,260 --> 00:06:19,820 something is revealed either by the nature of opening that spread and it just. 60 00:06:20,810 --> 00:06:26,060 Presents itself, but there's often additional components that you can explore, 61 00:06:26,090 --> 00:06:33,080 either by maybe rotating the book, maybe something is printed on the back side of a surface that you wouldn't, 62 00:06:33,590 --> 00:06:38,300 you know, see when you just open the spread and it's sitting on a table or in your hands, 63 00:06:38,870 --> 00:06:43,700 or there might be a desk or a tap or something to enter interact with. 64 00:06:44,150 --> 00:06:47,390 And I think that for the purpose of. 65 00:06:48,420 --> 00:06:52,050 Trying to teach something or learn something. 66 00:06:53,500 --> 00:07:01,270 If you can have a personal interaction with it, it makes a stronger impression on you versus if it's just a passive thing. 67 00:07:01,300 --> 00:07:08,620 You open it up, it's on the page. That's different than if you have to kind of put something into it to get that information out. 68 00:07:08,630 --> 00:07:12,310 If you have to pull that tab to to show something. 69 00:07:13,250 --> 00:07:17,840 That makes a stronger impression on you than just passively being visible on the page. 70 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:26,030 That's interesting as well, because you made this only in an edition of three, which means that there's a fairly well, 71 00:07:26,030 --> 00:07:30,170 a very limited audience in terms of the number of people that can physically interact with it. 72 00:07:30,620 --> 00:07:34,699 Was that an artistic decision for you or was it more of a practical decision 73 00:07:34,700 --> 00:07:39,740 based on how many of these components you could actually make realistically? 74 00:07:41,510 --> 00:07:47,150 I originally just created one of these. It was for my master study program. 75 00:07:47,210 --> 00:07:51,650 I made this in my first semester, the first movable book set that I had made, 76 00:07:52,310 --> 00:07:59,000 and then after I had heard there was a little bit of interest in it, I made two other copies so that I could send those out. 77 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,990 And I had actually talked to a couple of publishers about the potential of it. 78 00:08:03,410 --> 00:08:10,130 Ultimately, we didn't end up in mass producing this for a variety of reasons. 79 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:20,540 It's a it's a niche subject matter, right? Like. Graphic designers and typographer and book enthusiasts can really geek out over. 80 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:28,020 Yeah. Yeah. For the, you know, everyday consumer it might be a little bit too much of a niche subject. 81 00:08:28,290 --> 00:08:32,910 Alphabet books, on the other hand, you know, our appeal to lots of people, 82 00:08:32,990 --> 00:08:37,800 including young people, but this might be a little too specific of of a topic. 83 00:08:38,130 --> 00:08:42,810 And then some of the components here in here are a little delicate as well, 84 00:08:42,810 --> 00:08:49,380 which kind of prevented it from being accessible to be handled by lots of people and manufactured. 85 00:08:50,010 --> 00:08:53,550 We've seen that. You've also made a video showing the book page by page. 86 00:08:53,850 --> 00:08:59,010 And I guess that does mean to some extent that now it can be viewed by anyone online. 87 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:06,120 But we're just wondering how does that perhaps differs a reading experience in your opinion? 88 00:09:06,660 --> 00:09:12,930 Because obviously, ultimately you're saying it would be great if people could open it themselves, but they are able to see online. 89 00:09:14,010 --> 00:09:21,620 Yes, that was a way to, you know, share with with other people since, as you said, I only have three copies. 90 00:09:21,630 --> 00:09:29,060 It's certainly not the same to watch a video of someone flipping through a book versus being able to interact with it yourself. 91 00:09:29,070 --> 00:09:33,059 So I'm glad that other people can kind of share it. 92 00:09:33,060 --> 00:09:37,480 And I occasionally see it popping up on blogs and different things. 93 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:41,640 So I'm glad people get to interact with it in some way, 94 00:09:42,030 --> 00:09:47,850 but it's certainly not the same as being able to hold the book in your hands and be able to pull the tabs yourself. 95 00:09:48,630 --> 00:09:56,520 I think of it as a as a conservator, part of kind of digitisation and things like that is a is a big part of preservation as well, 96 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:02,849 because you are able to give people an experience to some extent of the object without that direct handling. 97 00:10:02,850 --> 00:10:13,649 So but normally, like in our digital body and we have lots of images online, but they're all static because and you can like go through them. 98 00:10:13,650 --> 00:10:19,590 So you are like reading a book. But having the video is always quite wonderful because your book does move. 99 00:10:19,590 --> 00:10:27,239 So having it as a video that you can play and you can see the page is actually moving and flaps being lifted and things like that was actually really, 100 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:31,380 really lovely and a bit different from my usual kind of digital preservation. 101 00:10:32,340 --> 00:10:41,550 I've seen that, you know, my book here has it is a pop up book, so there are things that come off of the plane of the book spread, 102 00:10:42,060 --> 00:10:48,780 but I have seen it movable books, digitised really well for Lothar. 103 00:10:48,780 --> 00:10:54,599 Megan Stauffer If you're familiar with him, 19th century German illustrator and paper engineer, 104 00:10:54,600 --> 00:11:00,240 he's known as kind of the the grandfather of the golden era of movable books. 105 00:11:00,630 --> 00:11:05,640 But his works and I have one here that I a reproduction that I can show you, 106 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:11,250 but I've seen these digitised really well and the reason they digitised so well. 107 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,959 So he wrote cute little sort of poems for children. 108 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:23,160 And then you pull a tab and the illustrations move. So the one to Oh lovely up here has kind of a little guy that's ducking behind a fence 109 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:27,510 and there's a turkey beside it beside him that's kind of moving its tail around. 110 00:11:27,510 --> 00:11:31,530 But these digitise really well because they're flat, essentially. 111 00:11:31,830 --> 00:11:36,630 So I've seen these translated into animated gifs that you can include on websites 112 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:41,310 because it doesn't have something coming up off of the plane of the book. 113 00:11:41,310 --> 00:11:43,800 So it translate really, really well to digital media. 114 00:11:45,130 --> 00:11:53,430 I think it's also probably similar to how in the exhibition, obviously it's behind glass, so you're unable to you're unable to get to it to interact. 115 00:11:53,430 --> 00:11:58,239 So this is like another step removed. You go that you can see it kind of in real life. 116 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:04,719 So you can see it in three dimensions, which you can't on a screen, but you can't actually get your hands in that to move around. 117 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:08,830 You'll see more than one opening, the opening it has done. 118 00:12:08,830 --> 00:12:12,070 It's moving as well when we installed it into that case. 119 00:12:12,370 --> 00:12:19,120 So the is the one with the type case. So that's obviously lift lifted upwards, but it is not static. 120 00:12:19,330 --> 00:12:21,010 And just wondering, do you have any thoughts about that. 121 00:12:21,010 --> 00:12:27,940 How I mean it's it's incredible that is seen by a hundred people every day who passed and see the exhibition. 122 00:12:27,940 --> 00:12:31,600 But yeah, they only see that one opening. 123 00:12:31,780 --> 00:12:34,900 And I say they don't see the performance of you. 124 00:12:35,260 --> 00:12:39,620 You did the performance when Yes when when when when the story was close, 125 00:12:39,620 --> 00:12:44,259 the movement happened and then it won't happen again until the exhibition is closed. 126 00:12:44,260 --> 00:12:47,350 I guess. Then we take it out and then we can change the. Yeah. 127 00:12:47,350 --> 00:12:48,550 Do you have any thoughts about that? 128 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:59,019 I'm always fascinated by the performance of movable looks, especially when that actual movement is communicating something. 129 00:12:59,020 --> 00:13:05,080 So it's not just about the like final, you know, display when everything's open, but it has something to do with the movement. 130 00:13:05,470 --> 00:13:08,830 There's some engineers that do that really well. 131 00:13:09,370 --> 00:13:17,349 And I think that, you know, there's a couple of spreads in here that the movement actually does lend something to the story. 132 00:13:17,350 --> 00:13:25,839 And I think that there. The spread you mentioned with the uppercase lowercase does help in that because as you open the page, 133 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:33,220 the two type cases separate apart and sort of, you know, further reinforce. 134 00:13:34,420 --> 00:13:39,430 The point of this page was talking about the difference between minuscule letter forms and 135 00:13:39,430 --> 00:13:44,820 magic skill or lowercase in uppercase and how they got their names from type cases of, 136 00:13:45,100 --> 00:13:50,340 you know, metal letter press type that were stored in two separate cases. 137 00:13:50,350 --> 00:13:55,450 So I think that that's a that's a good example of how movement is important, 138 00:13:55,930 --> 00:14:01,059 an important component as part of the paper engineering, some of the other spreads, it's not as important. 139 00:14:01,060 --> 00:14:05,590 It's more about just what it looks like when it is fully opened up. 140 00:14:06,660 --> 00:14:14,160 Yeah, sure. Um, so I quite wanted to circle back to something that got mentioned earlier, 141 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:19,710 which is that you do have a great job title, the occasional piece of paper engineer. 142 00:14:20,070 --> 00:14:28,620 And to me, that suggests that there is a precision that appeals to you, which is interested me, particularly as a conservator, because I wonder, 143 00:14:28,980 --> 00:14:36,240 how do you feel about potential changes that will happen to your work, which are inevitable through use, 144 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,100 especially with a movable book that has these elements that will move? 145 00:14:40,110 --> 00:14:44,250 And yeah, I was wondering if you could speak a bit about that. 146 00:14:45,460 --> 00:14:55,390 Yeah. So I I'm really fascinated by the area of paper engineering and a lot of people, you know, that's not sort of a common title. 147 00:14:55,390 --> 00:14:59,950 People might think that means you make paper or you work in a paper factory or something like that, 148 00:15:00,310 --> 00:15:08,740 but it's somebody that takes paper and sometimes other materials and using, 149 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:10,270 you know, 150 00:15:12,700 --> 00:15:26,230 mechanisms that are made out of paper and a lot of math and sometimes physics and lots of experimentation and folding and trial and error of paper. 151 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,219 The idea is that when you open a book, 152 00:15:30,220 --> 00:15:40,690 spread something about that spread physically transforms or presents an opportunity for the user to create, to create a transformation. 153 00:15:41,380 --> 00:15:50,950 And paper engineering dates back as far as the I believe it's the 13th century was the first example of paper engineering. 154 00:15:51,430 --> 00:15:56,589 But the real kind of golden era is just in the past hundred or so years. 155 00:15:56,590 --> 00:16:03,400 And there are people now that are doing amazing things with paper engineering that will just blow your mind. 156 00:16:03,430 --> 00:16:09,100 You'd never expect this kind of transformation to happen on a page and as you mentioned. 157 00:16:13,220 --> 00:16:17,210 Paper does change over time and books. 158 00:16:18,770 --> 00:16:23,780 Start to fall apart over time if they're not looked after and even if they are looked after. 159 00:16:24,290 --> 00:16:32,440 So it's it's a very like specialised, often self-taught discipline of paper engineering. 160 00:16:32,450 --> 00:16:39,899 There's there are some great books about how to. How to create pop ups, but there's no like reference guide. 161 00:16:39,900 --> 00:16:43,770 Like if this thing falls apart, go to this, you know, this is what you need to do. 162 00:16:45,110 --> 00:16:52,490 Do you have any personal kind of feelings about how those changes might happen to this work that you have like created so precisely? 163 00:16:53,210 --> 00:16:56,450 Yeah. It's the idea that there could be change. 164 00:16:56,450 --> 00:16:59,000 My book definitely happens. 165 00:16:59,010 --> 00:17:06,620 I'm sitting here with one in front of me and I can see that there's already sort of paper starting decreases in places I didn't want it to crease. 166 00:17:06,620 --> 00:17:13,420 And you know, there's some dog years and, you know, just things that happen with with books and paper. 167 00:17:13,430 --> 00:17:21,290 So, you know, at some point I'll open this and there'll be, you know, a flap that's no longer glued down or something. 168 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,700 Won't be performing as I had intended it to originally. 169 00:17:26,150 --> 00:17:30,450 And as somebody that likes things, kind of. Precise. 170 00:17:30,450 --> 00:17:38,610 And I like things, you know, aligned and centred and you know, it's well thought out and planned for that. 171 00:17:38,630 --> 00:17:42,480 It is sometimes hard to see like things change over time like that, 172 00:17:43,500 --> 00:17:48,810 but I guess that's just inevitable that eventually things change beyond your control. 173 00:17:49,290 --> 00:17:57,179 And how would you feel if in the future your book did need conservation treatment by someone like me in a in a library in the future, 174 00:17:57,180 --> 00:18:02,430 like all these signs of where something you're happy to be seen because it I guess 175 00:18:02,430 --> 00:18:06,299 it shows the history of the object in the success of the object in some ways, 176 00:18:06,300 --> 00:18:13,020 isn't it? Yeah. Like with a book like this, it's having been readiness is something that it kind of was. 177 00:18:13,050 --> 00:18:18,240 Yeah. Because people have then been able to reveal and experience those things that you intended. 178 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,150 Or I guess the other side is would you like it to remain as pristine forever? 179 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:28,830 Like, I was just. Yeah. Wonder if you had any messages for the Conservancy in the future? 180 00:18:30,660 --> 00:18:40,080 Yeah, I think it would make me very happy. Just, you know, looking in the future, I saw that the book was very well worn and used and read. 181 00:18:41,460 --> 00:18:48,090 Even if you know it, it's needed some repair or was beyond repair if you know if it. 182 00:18:48,630 --> 00:18:51,690 The book was not created as. 183 00:18:52,960 --> 00:19:00,680 You know, a personal self-expression or something. It was created as a learning tool using these moving pieces. 184 00:19:00,700 --> 00:19:07,599 So if if those get worn down because people are actually using them, then I think the book has served its purpose. 185 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:13,120 And if it can be repaired in the future, then that's fantastic. 186 00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:17,530 And if it can't be repaired, then maybe I need to make another one. 187 00:19:19,250 --> 00:19:23,500 Sounds like a good plan. Yeah. 188 00:19:23,530 --> 00:19:27,460 Because your website says that the piece is meant for all ages. 189 00:19:27,470 --> 00:19:31,780 And I just wonder, would you be happy for a child to play with it? 190 00:19:34,510 --> 00:19:40,229 Under supervision. I say that just because I only have three copies of it. 191 00:19:40,230 --> 00:19:49,959 Yes. Yeah. You know, if you if you look at it, a mass produced pop up book on a child's shelf, you know, it's got tears. 192 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:55,840 And, you know, all those things you would expect to see from kids that are really excited and and handling it, 193 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,649 but not necessarily with the same carefulness that maybe a conservator would. 194 00:19:59,650 --> 00:20:02,920 But, you know, they love the book. It's fun. It's exciting. 195 00:20:03,610 --> 00:20:07,150 I'm just a little bit more careful with it because I only have three copies of it. 196 00:20:07,690 --> 00:20:10,509 We had a lovely event over the summer, this summer, 197 00:20:10,510 --> 00:20:19,210 just gone where Alice ran a book hospital for kids to bring in the pop up books, and the conservation team fixed them up. 198 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,990 Yeah, and it was adorable. It was very successful. 199 00:20:22,990 --> 00:20:29,740 But it was it was with that in mind, it's like pop up books at home of being loved in a very different way after death. 200 00:20:29,950 --> 00:20:35,890 Yeah. In a very different way. Through the way that we loved them in the reading room and on display. 201 00:20:35,900 --> 00:20:44,770 And so we had some slightly different approaches that we were talking them through that we would do in the conservation studio, 202 00:20:44,770 --> 00:20:53,140 for example, with different materials. But it was fantastic and it was really nice to see pop up books that, yeah, are being read every single day. 203 00:20:53,590 --> 00:21:03,630 Very, very holiday favourites and yeah. There's a kind of a joke amongst paper engineers that when we buy Papa books, we always buy two. 204 00:21:04,380 --> 00:21:13,200 One is to sit on the shelf and be perfect. It is to completely deconstruct and take apart and understand so you can figure out how to lose. 205 00:21:13,740 --> 00:21:16,870 So one will definitely be destroyed and the other will be perfect. 206 00:21:17,190 --> 00:21:23,280 I wish we'd have had that policy at the Bodleian for several hundred years because we quite often have people in 207 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:30,360 the reading room with our full veils trying to peep underneath and see how the how they've been put together. 208 00:21:30,540 --> 00:21:33,600 Yeah, that would be ideal. That feeling now? 209 00:21:33,780 --> 00:21:37,230 Yeah. Book cuts. See inside book. 210 00:21:39,810 --> 00:21:44,280 And that note. Yes. Yes. To bring it to an end? 211 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,340 I think so. Thank you so much, Kevin. Yeah, Thanks, Kevin. 212 00:21:47,350 --> 00:21:55,590 You've been great. And yeah, just to say that people can come and see your work on display until the end of January 2024 to do that. 213 00:21:55,780 --> 00:22:02,750 Thank you so much for having me. It was great talking with you. Thanks again to Kevin, Steve, for joining us for this episode. 214 00:22:02,870 --> 00:22:07,370 But you can see Kevin's work in this will put the platforms on display at the bottom 215 00:22:07,370 --> 00:22:13,070 libraries until the 21st of January 2024 as part of the Fantastic Alphabet Alive exhibition. 216 00:22:13,490 --> 00:22:18,080 And we will also be sharing some photos of this piece on the Centre for the Study of Books blog The Conveyor. 217 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:19,520 See you next time.