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Okay. So could you just start by saying your name and what your position and affiliation is?

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I'm Lucy Clover. I'm professor of child and family social work at the Department of Social Policy and Intervention and here at Nuffield College.

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Okay.

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And without telling me your entire life story, can you just give me a rough idea of how you got to where you are now and develop those interests?

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Well, I trained as a social worker here at Oxford and worked in South Africa,

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where I'm originally from, and started working on research with children orphaned by HIV AIDS.

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And that's that progressed to working on on child violence against children because those kids were at higher risk and moved

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towards developing with a whole set of colleagues on these evidence based child prevention and child abuse prevention programs,

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which which is what led to the COVID work. So what you both a practitioner and an academic at this time in social work?

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I tried I tried at first to do part time of both.

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And it was a complete disaster because you're when you're a social worker, your clients don't have their crises conveniently on three days a week.

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But I you know, I think what I do now is kind of academic social work.

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Right. Right. Yes. So you mentioned that a lot of your work has been in HIV.

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So what were the issues particularly? Just tell me a little bit more about the projects that you worked on with HIV.

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We we we did a whole set of projects on.

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Understanding the needs and what we could do to help children who had lost parents and whose parents were very sick with with HIV AIDS.

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And and it's, you know, incredibly relevant to COVID because you've got this sudden and across sub-Saharan Africa,

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we had this sudden wave of loss of caregivers and very unwell caregivers.

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And so many of the lessons that we've been thinking about for children in COVID have come from from HIV.

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But but one of the things that really came out was that when a family is under enormous stress,

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and that happens when you have a health crisis and an economic crisis and a mental health crisis,

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that and also when this bereavement in the family that you see rates of of violence

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against children go up and actually rates against violence in the household go up.

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And and that's even worse when you're trapped in a household together and unable to go out.

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And UNICEF showed, you know, 50% increases in violence during lockdowns.

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And so what we need is evidence based services that can reduce those risks and and help families to deal with these

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incredibly stressful situations without getting to the point where they're screaming and shouting and hitting each other,

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which is, you know, I think everyone who who's just made it through this last two years probably feels closer to.

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Than we ever have before, because we all saw what a huge strain it was on our relationships.

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So let's before we get to without trying not to get to go to. Sure.

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What kinds of interventions did you develop through your work with HIV AIDS?

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Well, we worked very closely with W.H.O. and UNICEF, and we continue to do so.

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And really, the and the there are a range of interventions which help reduce family stress and reduce violence against children.

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But probably the most effective one is parenting programs.

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And they are they're all pretty much the same.

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There's lots of different ones, but they're all pretty much the same.

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They're like, you know, I don't know, personal and aerial, you know, laundry liquids and and they what they do is they traditional and based programs.

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They bring families together in a group for, you know, five or eight or 12 or 14 sessions.

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And they they help families build positive relationships.

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So you do things like spending time one on one focussed time every day with your child or your teenager,

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and you learn about how to do problem solving with them, you know, when they when they stay out late at night.

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How do you deal with that? How do you how do you work out a solution that works with them?

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It teaches you about building household rules and managing problem behaviour.

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How do you how do you manage it in non-violent but effective ways?

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Because that's what parents really need. Actually they need something which works, which doesn't raise the stress and also teaches families,

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particularly for adolescents, about how do you how do you manage the risks out in the world for them?

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How do you plan with a teenager to keep them safe and online risks increasingly so that

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these sort of sets of of interventions and when we started the work in about 2012,

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all of the evidence based interventions and there were some and that there are some were commercialised.

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So they were developed by academics and then turned into companies.

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So they're really only available to families who could pay for that resource for governments in very high income countries.

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Yes, yes. So so the US in Australia, in some parts of Europe, they were using these commercialised programs, but they're very expensive.

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And so for a for a low income country, it was completely impossible.

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And so we decided with W.H.O. and UNICEF and a colleagues in South Africa in the UK to develop and test a set of free versions,

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non commercialised versions. And we spent about ten years doing that.

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You have to have different ones for different age groups. It's different strategies between a two year old and a 17 year old.

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So some commonalities there. And as we developed and tested them, they were also scaled up.

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So by by the end of 2019, they were delivered in, I think 29 countries took to about 300,000 people, which by these NGOs is global and generally.

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I either governments or buy us the US aid, but also by NGOs and some faith based organisations.

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I mean, some we didn't know about, you know, everything was free and available online.

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So you only know about the people who contact us.

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And at the time we thought that was good. But then everything, you know, everything changed.

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So yeah, so we've got to cope with now. So how, where can you remember when you first heard that something was going on in China?

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And how can you can you recall the stages of how you became aware that this was actually

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going to have a global impact and was something that way that you could step into?

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I think. I think the moment where we realised it was not about the epidemic,

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it was lockdown and there was really about a week when lockdowns hit across the world and it was must have been in the end of February 2020.

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And for me it was a realisation when my, my,

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I had a one year old and a three year old at that point and we got a message from the nursery saying

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the nursery was closing at the end of the week and it was I think it must have been about a Tuesday.

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And I woke up that morning at 5:00 in the morning with this absolute horror of thinking, how was I going to look after two children and work?

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Like, how is this going to be possible? And when I was a social worker, what you saw consistently and of course this is reflected in national data,

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is that every time there is a even a school holiday, you see rises in child abuse.

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And if you look at data on Ebola, on HIV, every time there's a health emergency, you see rises in child abuse and.

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And we also could see that these lockdowns were going to cause economic crisis,

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and economic crisis leads to rises in child abuse, also violence against between adults and families.

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And I think what I realised in this in this very sobering moment was that we were going to be seeing that on an on a global scale and that we needed,

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if we were going to we had to do something and we had to do it very, very fast.

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And that morning, I think I literally got up out of bed at 5:00 in the morning and wrote to colleagues

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at Oxford and University of Cape Town in Stellenbosch who had worked with on this.

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And then to our colleagues at W.H.O., at UNICEF, at U.S. Aid,

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at CDC and the Global Partnership to End Violence and a range of kind of partners that

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we'd worked with over the years on these evidence based parenting programs and said,

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you know, we have to do something now. And I think that email might be something that Baldwin would like to have.

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Gosh, I don't know where it is. It's a huge chain it became because, of course, they all responded.

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I mean, amazingly, you know, I've never seen the speed. They all responded.

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By midday that day, we had a meeting and and I have like three days because the nursery was closing.

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We had a meeting that day. We all decided we were going to convert these evidence based programs, in-person programs,

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into the simplest possible digital resources and remote resources that we could do.

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And everyone threw in, you know, what should they look like? We said we'd do simple worksheets.

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USAID's said, Let's do public service announcements, let's do radio announcements.

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We thought like, what can we do? That is the simplest possible distillation of all of this, and then over a whole set of other partners, you know.

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So they brought in partners like UNODC, who we hadn't worked with before and, you know, kind of KDC office for drugs and crime, right?

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Yes. So new partners within the UN and a colleague brought in a set of faith based partners, World Without Orphans,

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which is this huge global Christian network that, you know, we'd never worked with faith based partners before.

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And over a sort of ten fairly horrendous days, we wrote these tip sheets, which is what we started with,

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and then we had inputs from every single agency, but not just every agency.

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So, for example, UNICEF sent to ten teams within UNICEF, each of whom had five people in them, all of whom wrote comments and sent them back.

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And this was true of every agency. So we then had to collate this kind of massive comment.

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How many colleagues did you have working on that? It was Jamie and myself, Jamie Lachman and myself.

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Yeah. At that point, we didn't we didn't have it wasn't possible.

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Like we didn't have a team, you know, we were just starting to work and at the same time colleagues were setting up.

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So we were trying to collate and incorporate and adapt, you know, all sorts of things we had to think about.

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Like, you know, if you were going to make it global, you couldn't have you couldn't have a picture of a table.

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We had to make the people look like no one. They were blue, you know, they couldn't have clothes on them.

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You had to adapt things for COVID.

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You couldn't say when you're when your kids make you want to scream, take a step outside and take a deep breath.

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Because you can't take a step outside because a lot of places, you know, you are in your house.

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So we have to think, how do you deal with with those situations where you might be in one room with ten people?

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So we had to adapt. We adapted for some specific COVID advice as well.

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And all of this in this kind of crazy cycle, whilst colleagues led by Enga Wessels and colleagues were setting up a kind of system.

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So we were getting designers to design how it would how these would look.

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We were setting up a system for delivery, you know,

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how do you get the resources to as many people as possible and track who you're getting them to and how they're how they're reaching?

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So they could you you used the word digital earlier, but you presume you can't assume that people have got access.

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Absolutely. And what happened was and we made them open source, we made an instant decision to make it open source, which is, you know,

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sort of slightly more than we'd ever done before, because open source means people can change whatever they want and you have to trust people.

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But we didn't have time to have control. We have to trust people.

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And. And we at the same time, of course, amassed a team.

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You know, we diverted lots of our colleagues onto this work. They built a website in 4 hours.

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You know, it was it was it was an amazing piece of work.

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And, um, and then they just started spreading, you know, we had them ready and starting to go out.

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Within ten days, a colleague set up translators.

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So we had translators from the university, from Facebook.

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Um, we had an Italian insurance company called generalI got, um, did a hackathon, a staff hackathon.

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They translated into 30 languages, this faith based network world without orphans that had people all over the world did another 40 languages.

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You know, it was within two days, you know, it was incredible speed.

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And then they had to set up a system whereby you could get the translated versions into the into the tip sheet.

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So they were setting up digital systems for translation.

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I would say that the imagery was, as you say, what you tried to make that universal so that yeah, although then people started changing the imagery.

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So we saw, I mean, many of them use the these kind of blue blobs,

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but we saw in all sorts of countries they would develop their own versions and create their own graphics and change it for what they wanted.

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And I think Saudi Arabia, they put hijabs on some of the blobs which we Yeah.

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Which we were amazed at because they were kind of non gendered of how they managed to decide which ones were male and female.

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But um, and then, and then this kind of, there was just this incredible adaptation and sharing, you know,

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and people use them in all sorts of ways, I mean, ways that we could never have anticipated, you know, we would.

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And what about there's just one question in my mind. I mean, presumably some of the people you wanted to reach weren't literate.

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So. Yes, so able to. So, for example, in in places like Lao and I think Cameroon, they actually put them on loudspeakers.

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So they they recorded them and put them on data sticks and they plugged the data

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sticks into loudspeakers and people walked up and down through the villages.

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People wouldn't look down, so they couldn't come out of houses, but they walked up and down through the villages,

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blasting out the messages, and they did that in something like 50,000 villages.

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Um, in other countries they did lots of radio shows.

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They were on national TV in places like Pakistan and Kyrgyzstan.

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They made them into cartoons. And then because they were in Russian, they managed to get them right across a whole set of Eastern European countries.

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And the cartoons had these very glamorous looking mothers with high heels, which wasn't quite how we were experiencing it.

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And then doNis started coming in actually after the first couple of weeks of the OQ Foundation, the Lego Foundation,

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the Human Safety Net Foundation came and offered support and just said, Look, we've heard you're doing this, can we help?

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And we managed to get very swift. You know, within a couple of weeks they'd given us money that allowed us to continue.

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I think we probably couldn't have if we hadn't had that,

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which was amazing because we kind of weren't even thinking, you know, we got some money from the university.

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They had a COVID fund, which was incredibly helpful and quick and just allowed us to move.

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And then and then we built a whole team. We had 30 people, you know, because we had to have people with every language from every region.

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It was a completely global team. None of them ever met each other.

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You know, they would. They would. It was almost impossible to have a meeting time because it was, you know, from Indonesia to to, you know, to Kenya.

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The time difference is so huge. Um, but, you know, it was incredible.

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So, and that was called the COVID 19 Emergency Parents Parenting Response.

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Yeah, I mean, it got called lots of things. It's just who cares?

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Yes. Well, I just have to sort of document these things and.

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Oh, and yeah. So I made a note that it was cool to play.

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They were cool, playful parenting responses. Is that right? How important was the the playfulness side of it?

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I think there's there's some things that we realised very rapidly as we were working and engaging and the first one was the parents.

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You know, traditional parenting programmes focus a lot on the parent child relationship or parent can mean anyone looking after a child.

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You do have to be your biological child. You could be a grandparent or a foster parent.

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Um, but what we realised in COVID was that we needed first to support parents with their own stress and mental health.

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And our first tip sheet was all about parents. And all about what they could do to support their own stress.

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Because when you're under so much stress and pressure, you know,

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and people were trying to like homeschool their kids whilst working or they'd lost their jobs or they're, you know, desperately poor.

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You can't deal with you know, you can't deal with the kids if you don't have some strategies for yourself.

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So parent support was kind of became very much a number one, but also to, to, um,

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to just introduce some moments of time that could be enjoyable for parents and children or teenagers.

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And, you know, we often I think, you know, we weren't thinking about playfulness.

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We were thinking about, um, you know, all the horror and fear that was, was at that time.

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But there's this amazing evidence that shows that if you play with kids for 5 minutes a day,

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you know, and even the most stressed parent can probably manage 5 minutes in a day,

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you know, even if it's while you're doing the washing up together, you know, you can you can improve relationships and outcomes.

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You can reduce stress and violence really substantially over time.

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And so we really wanted to say, you know, how can you just have some moments?

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But not not not in a stressful way.

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You know, I remember reading when I was, you know, and I was doing all this for two small children at home.

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And I can remember reading this was months later. People were putting up, you know, like advice for parents of things to do, activities to do.

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And I clicked on one and it said, Find six sheets of sticky back plastic.

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I thought, Why the [INAUDIBLE] would I find that spiky but plastic, you know,

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like I'm looking after two children are working full time and all the shops are shop

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like what you know and I just thought you you've got to come at it on parents.

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So what what were some of the tips that that you did put in your resources?

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So they were really mainly distilled versions of what was in these evidence based programs.

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And that was actually how we were able to get all the and all the UN agencies to endorse

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them because they had already were already endorsing these evidence based programs.

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We hadn't had 12 randomised controlled trials showing they're effective.

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They they wouldn't and shouldn't have endorsed them.

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But things like very simple things like when you when you when you get to a point where you want to scream,

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you know, and it can happen once a day or 50 times a day.

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You take a moment, turn away and breathe in and out ten times.

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And usually at that point when you've done that, you're much less likely to, to do something you'll regret.

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Um, to take, to take one minute a day for every parent and just do a simple breathing exercise, you know,

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to at the end of every day as a parent, to praise yourself for something you've done well that day.

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You know, rather than thinking, God, another terrible day. How can I do this tomorrow to just take a moment and say, you know, it was hard.

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This one thing I did, I did well, even if the one thing was I didn't scream, you know.

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And what about the play aspects of the I mean, we. Did you have specific suggestions about how play could be introduced into interaction?

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Yeah. You know, it's actually really simple. You don't have to get you don't need sticky back plastic.

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You know, what you need to do is for five or ten or 20 minutes a day,

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you you sit or stand or whatever with your child and you let them direct what you did.

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You don't have to create something.

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You know, a small child will will want to do something with you, show you them their Lego or, you know, take you to look at something they've made.

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And an older teenager might actually not really want to interact at all, but might just want to sit with you, you know, or you might.

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And we did have ideas, you know, but, you know, with a teenager, you can say something like, you know,

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what's a country you'd like to visit, you know, and just just have something where it's led by them.

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Um, teenagers tend to be a bit less, um, they show their,

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their enjoyment in appreciation of a lot less than the younger children, but that doesn't mean they're not appreciating it.

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And sometimes with teenagers, people say, we just sat and watch TV together for 10 minutes, you know?

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But when you don't have you know, when you've got so much on.

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Parents weren't able to do that.

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Or the only time they were interacting was when they were trying to get kids to home school, which is not a fun or playful interaction.

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It's a miserable, stressful interaction for many, you know.

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But, you know, we were also trying to suggest things that would work for a, you know, a high income parent in Washington, D.C.

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Right through to a, um, you know, a parent in Nigeria in a shack with 15 people.

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And so it's pretty hard. You know, you've got to make things very simple at that point.

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Yeah. So what I mean, this is a question I meant to ask before we talked about the actual interventions, but.

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Were there specific threats to children and young people that the COVID pandemic presented

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that weren't just the same as other stressors that you've talked about earlier?

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I think what we learnt about COVID was that it wasn't that things we knew, it was that they were exacerbating.

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So, you know that suddenly at a global level, people are experiencing economic crisis and incredibly challenging mental health.

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You know, there's been lots of data on this, but, you know, the stress and uncertainty, the fear, the fear of contagion,

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the fear of death, that there was very, you know, very sharply rising levels of bereavement and severe sickness.

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Can you put a figure on that? How many? Well,

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we we know now and I've been working with colleagues that there have been now about 10.5

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million children who've lost a caregiver in the space of two years to COVID associated death.

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That many more, you know, family members and parents with COVID, with long COVID and all the stresses of trying to parent with that.

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But also, I think there's, you know, lockdown and lockdown itself presented this, you know, huge stress,

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not only trapped together, but you're also unable to access services that alleviate that stress.

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So you're not able to you're not able to send your kids to school.

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You know, you're not able to get social services if you need them.

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A lot of you know, for a lot of families, that's a that's a break that you have from your kids.

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And is there data on that, on the extent to which children were subject to increases in violence and and abuse?

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Yeah, UNICEF's done some really good evidence on this.

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It's hard because what you what you see in many cases you saw reduced rates of reports,

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of calls to things like child lines because people didn't have privacy to make calls.

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So you saw the ups and downs as mainly as you saw lockdowns change.

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But they estimate of 30 to 50% overall increase in in violence against children during the lockdown period.

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My colleague Jamie Lachman, who co-led all of this.

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You know, we did everything together.

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He did a series of really kind of amazing pre-post studies and retrospective studies on the COVID 19 resources and found,

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you know, they're not as good as a randomised trial in evidence. We couldn't do a randomised trial but found very that the parents reported that

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these resources really gave them very substantial support and that we were

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surprised by how strong we had sort of 70% reported reduction in violence and

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80 something percent reported improvements in parent child relationships.

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And so it's probably an overestimate, but at the same time you realise that that.

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Something. You know, parents needed something. Evidence base that could get to them.

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Mm hmm. And I guess even the fact that somebody had worried about them and produced these resources because they felt they needed them,

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must have been in itself supportive. Oh, I don't know. You can't tell.

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I can't tell if that was helpful or not. Yeah. Um, I'm a bit more of a fan of.

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Of the hardcore evidence, what works. And so, I mean, I think your work has always been very collaborative,

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but would you say that this project sort of increased the level of collaboration that you did with academic colleagues?

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I mean, I think traditionally academic life is regarded as quite a bit competitive and embracing to get papers out.

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But I mean, certainly what I've heard from others is that working on the projects,

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everybody was after the same goal and not worrying about the ref and all the rest.

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Um, I think I'm lucky. You know, we worked as we've been working as a big team who haven't been worrying about that for years.

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So that kind of wasn't, um.

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I think, you know, I don't think that was a concern, but what it really did was increase and strengthen our collaborations with our policy partners.

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Yes. And widened your networks. You talked about things you hadn't worked with before.

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And and and one thing that it really led to, which has been amazing is that and I mean,

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I guess I should say that to set up an interagency, um, partnership normally takes three years of careful and complex negotiations.

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And we did it in days. Had we waited two months or a month, we probably wouldn't have been able to do it at all,

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because by then all the agencies had set up covered committees which had to approve everything and it slowed things down.

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But we got in before those were created. And what would it led to actually was that, um,

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a group of UN agencies have now made a formal commitment to reach families with evidence based parenting support globally,

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and it's called the Global Initiative to Support Parents. And it's led to this kind of, you know, for the first time,

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a sort of formalised interagency partnership to to take what we did during COVID and deliver more intensive support.

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That was the big feedback we got from everyone was they said, this is great, but we actually need more.

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Um, you know, tips are helpful, but what we need is we, we really need to try and deliver the more intensive programs on a global scale,

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which presumably involves being more 1 to 1 more, a more personal interaction, or it involves really getting good at digital versions.

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And we and and Jamie Lachman is now leading a huge, huge initiative.

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It's it's probably about £20 million in total of developing these these programmes into digital and hybrid kind of interventions.

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So you might be using an app with a parenting programme, but you're also part of a WhatsApp group with other families and a facilitator and,

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you know, trying to work out how could we deliver them on, on the scale to which they needed.

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So do you think the pandemic has has I mean, that's obviously something that needed to happen anyway.

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Do you think the COVID pandemic pushed it, gave it a higher profile and made it easier to raise funds, for example?

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Absolutely. I mean, we never intended it when we started, but I think what happened was that suddenly.

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Suddenly parenting was foremost in the minds of many people who it had not been.

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And we would talk with senior government ministers and, you know.

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Senior people in UN agencies, particularly men, often men.

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And we would talk to them about the, the work we were doing and they would say, I'm, I'm stuck here with my three kids and they're driving me crazy.

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Can you send me the tapes? You know? And for many of these many of these people, they are not in in daily looking after their children.

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You know, many of these people are in situations where the you know, they're not stuck with their kids 24, seven for long periods of time.

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And I think it really did raise the profile of.

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Both the stress on parents and what parents needed, but also the the opportunities to deliver services.

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Mm. Since it's all covered.

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Yes. So you yourself were at home with two small children and you said you had those first three days before before the nursery closed down.

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How did it go on thereafter? How did it impact on your life? Clearly, you've had masses of work to do since it was pretty chaotic.

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My husband, my husband's also an academic at Oxford, and we we did about two months of kind of half days each, which was pretty, pretty chaotic.

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I can remember doing.

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I can remember once doing a big inter-agency meeting on Zoom whilst my three year old, my one year old tipped the kitchen table over together.

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Luckily, they were both fine, but and I used to have to do things like, you know, clean the bathroom while I was on UNICEF calls because,

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you know, if you're looking after kids and working full time, there's no time to clean the bathroom, you know?

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And I had to do the hoovering at 1:00 in the morning because my one year old was frightened of the Hoover.

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And, you know, it it was a pretty chaotic, you know, we just about money.

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And then because of the COVID work, I was able to get key worker status and that that really helps.

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You know, the key workers scheme was pretty fundamental.

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Yeah. So then I was, we were able to get a bit more support which took some of that maybe the first after the first four months.

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Um, but I think that was one of the most challenging things.

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And actually that's something that I think, you know, I had a huge UK or I grant and I said to them,

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can I use some of my money to pay for childcare, which I could do if I was travelling and they said No, because you're not travelling.

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And I thought that was there were some there were some decisions that could have been made better at that point.

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It would have really, really helped. But, you know, I think that's also the joy of working in a team that we were able to backstop each other.

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And did you and your family feel personally threatened by the virus itself, by the risk of catching it?

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I think we all did, didn't we? I mean, you know, I didn't say they didn't, but I think.

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I mean, I did. Yeah. Um.

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I think. Yeah. I mean, I think. There was so much confusion, wasn't there?

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You were trying to follow the rules, which constantly changed.

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And, you know, and I think you must have found that when every academic you speak to is not only looking at the government rules,

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but is also looking at the data in the evidence and questioning the government rules.

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So so we were looking at that, and that is the balance of trying to keep your children safe whilst also not leaving them as anxious messes, you know?

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And that's a real challenge. My one year old loved looking well, anything really.

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And he would lick the bollards in the street outside our house, the girls, you know.

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But but also what kind of you know. I was always having to think as well.

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What kind of advice do we give people that that can.

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That is feasible, you know, feasible for parents.

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And I think you have to be realistic. Mm hmm. Um.

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About about what you can do. And I you know, I don't know.

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It's easy with hindsight to say what we should or shouldn't have done.

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I think we all did the best we could.

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Um, but, you know, things I think things that were a real challenge with things like how do you, you know, kids need exercise.

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They need to run around. How do you do that in lockdown conditions, you know, and we we know.

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Wilks. Yes. WICKS Yeah, of course.

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And if you're in the UK and you have an Internet connection. That's right.

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And if you're in, you know, the Philippines or or Ghana, you know, what do you do?

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And we we had advice like, you know, everyone walks around the room, you know, ten times a day and,

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you know, can you like games that you could play that just got some energy out?

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Really a huge challenge. And did you do you think that.

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The fact that you were working on something that was going to help parents through the pandemic, help to support your own well-being.

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I mean, a lot of people, as you say, were stuck at home and couldn't do whatever it was they normally did.

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And so in some sense, I suppose, lost that sense of agency that is part of well-being.

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I don't know. I didn't think about it. I didn't have time.

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So, you know, we but by you know, by a couple of months and we were running a, you know, a massive program of of work and and research.

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And, um, and we were also starting to develop these digital programs, you know, which we rapidly realised we needed.

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So it was, yeah, I didn't have time. Well you exhausted.

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I mean, I think every parent was exhausted.

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I had, I had a colleague actually, um, who has five children and we used to go to university parks every day and walk around the park.

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So I used to see them with their five children. And I just think, okay, I can't complain.

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I have five. I had two. So has the experience of working on COVID changed your attitude or your approach to your work?

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And how would you like to see things change in the future? I think it definitely has in several ways.

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I mean, one way is that, you know, before COVID, I was only working in Africa.

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And, you know, then suddenly we were doing something absolutely global.

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And even I mean, I never thought I would never work in a high income country.

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But, you know, 33, 34 governments used our programs as part of their national COVID responses.

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And, you know, so we were working with all sorts of, you know, you know,

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all sorts of governments, anyone who needed or wanted it, you know, we were working with.

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And that was very different. And it really made me think for the first time, you know, can we do something global?

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You know, I hadn't thought on that scale before, but, you know,

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at the point where by the time we sort of stopped counting, which was probably about six months ago.

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And what had you do? You have these figures in your head? It's rather unfair to ask the figures.

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I can never remember numbers, but the numbers are on your website. But can you remember that the reach, the ultimate, the global reach?

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We did a low estimate and a high estimate, and we followed some guidelines about not sort of avoiding risk of double counting,

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but the low estimate was about 210 million families.

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Now there are 2 billion children in the world. So it's it's reasonably likely that we reach 10% one in ten children in the well,

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probably more because you tend to have more than one child in a family. And at that point, you start thinking if the need and demand is that great.

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Then something which we had been thinking about.

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You know, in January 2020, we were thinking about reaching hundreds of thousands.

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And you start thinking, okay, can we start thinking about hundreds of millions?

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And that is a step change. It's a real step change.

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And it's changed our perspective as we move forward.

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I still mainly carry US-Africa, but I'm willing to concede.

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And Jamie in particular has led this like so much work in in Europe, in Eastern Europe and in Asia and Francis Gardner as well.

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Really? I think you know, I think I think we there is capacity now to to reach globally.

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That's fantastic. Thank you very much.