1
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So could you just start by saying your name and your current title?

2
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Yes. So my name is Martin Montoya.

3
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I'm the senior operations manager at the Clinical Biomanufacturing facility,

4
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which is currently part of the Pandemic Sciences Institute in the University of Oxford.

5
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Brilliant. Thanks very much. And fairly briefly, but I'm interested in how you ended up where you are now.

6
00:00:29,750 --> 00:00:39,500
So would you like to just give me a kind of run through your career from from your initial education to how you got to be where you are now?

7
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Yes. So I have a degree in engineering.

8
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That's probably why I understand the processes and how to optimise it.

9
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Engineering way of thinking. And I have another degree, which is an executive MBA from the US from Northwestern University,

10
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and that's why I, I believe I have this notion of how to add value without wasting resources.

11
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So how I ended up here? That's a very good question.

12
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My, my career was always dynamic. The only constant was the change.

13
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And it so I 20 years back, I started in retail.

14
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Then I moved to construction from construction to bigger construction projects.

15
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And then I was in I grew up in the Middle East, in Jordan,

16
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and at that time I was there working on projects in the Middle East area Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Dubai.

17
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Uh, then the I've noticed the change and the overall business environment and what's going on and the with, with the Syria, with the war in Syria.

18
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So I, I got involved with the humanitarian response for the Syrian war, and that's were that was a turning point for me.

19
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My focus became on humanitarian aid, how to get things to places.

20
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No, no one can get to, how to move supplies, move it, move resources,

21
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including people and labour and, you know, trainers and human beings to go and work in places.

22
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And at that time, by the way, remote working was a thing for me.

23
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And when I say at that time, it's it's like ten years back because I used to work with people from different background,

24
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different professions where they have to shift from being and let's say a schoolteacher is becoming now an accountant,

25
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working in a place where we have no idea how does this this looks looks like just to help the people there.

26
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So then I became involved with one of the major responses there were.

27
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Similarly. So those are two of the main milestones in my career, which this one which I'm going to mention now and the COVID project,

28
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that at that time all borders were closed in Syria and and and a lot of people were displaced here.

29
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We have to provide supplies to them to help them, the basic supplies.

30
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But nobody was able to get there and we were unable to send money,

31
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therefore be able to buy things and distribute it, considering all the sanctions or with what's going on.

32
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So I came up with the idea of, uh, legal smuggling, let's say.

33
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Yeah, which sounded a bit weird at the time.

34
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Uh, and. Yes. What is that?

35
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Okay, we can have it legal from the other side sides of the borders by getting the approvals, like from Jordan, for example.

36
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But on the other side, it was like no man's land. How would we do that?

37
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We have to. You know, similar operations are built on trust.

38
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Uh, low profile operations, extreme lack of security and access.

39
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And, yeah, here I come employing my my skills to get this done.

40
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Building and maintaining our good relationships and managing the relationship with various authorities,

41
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managing expectations, high living and high quality of communication with authority used with community leaders.

42
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You know, it was crucial to the success of similar operation in a war zone.

43
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And were you what were you doing all this remotely or what on the ground?

44
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I wasn't. Jordan. So yeah, it wasn't Jordan.

45
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No, the Operation Self was remotely was inside Syria.

46
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Mainly started focusing on southern Syria. But I wasn't Jordan.

47
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But literally I was standing at the border sometimes observing the implementation of what we have created.

48
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But we cannot go to the other side, of course. And there was bombing at the time.

49
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You can see it sometimes you have to just do emergency evacuation, just leave the area immediately, you know?

50
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Yeah. Until. Yeah. This remarkable access, delivering humanitarian assistance to vulnerable people created this kind of motivation for me.

51
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Yes, we can create impact. We can create impacts, we can change things and we can help people.

52
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And at the same time, it can be a way of living.

53
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I continued working there. Then my career expanded.

54
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I started to focus more and more and on material supplies in other areas like South Sudan, Somaliland, Yemen.

55
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Bangladesh. Had to travel a lot.

56
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I remember 2019. Maybe I. I took more than it was about 40 aeroplanes in a year in 2019, which is.

57
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Yeah. Now after the COVID era, this sounds too much just to travel to all these areas, to talk to people, different backgrounds, different cultures.

58
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And I believe this is one of the skills which helps me to keep going with what I'm going with.

59
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With what I'm doing. Mm hmm. Uh, yeah.

60
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So then I. I moved to the U.K. with the.

61
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With an interest to expand my work further.

62
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And what and what year was that? End of 2019.

63
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Okay. Yes. November 2019.

64
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Okay. Very, very, uh, coincidental timing.

65
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, it was fun, because sometimes I used to ask myself a question.

66
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Is it a correlation between where I am and.

67
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And the humanitarian crisis, whether it is a manmade crisis, a natural natural, like a manmade disaster or a natural disaster, or it is acquisition.

68
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So I so I thought it will be more some more of settled emergency because my focus was I started establishing

69
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contact with with research institutes and and research bodies within Oxford and other places to work on projects.

70
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The their trials, you know, the trials are happening everywhere overseas in the UK.

71
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My experience will be valuable if they want to implement trials and let's see in Africa,

72
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in the Middle East, Southeast Asia, and honestly speaking, it's like wishful thinking.

73
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Uh, yeah. I met Kath Green and Dec.

74
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Mm hmm. And, uh. Yes.

75
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Okay. Come on, Omar, You can come.

76
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We had this kind of interview, and they joined the team, started working with him because I had to travel again in January.

77
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So I delayed my my start to work with them to handle the operation of the clinical biomanufacturing to 20th of January.

78
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Yeah. So this was my career and how it started and how it progressed.

79
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So if you if I look at it, if I go back 20 years and it was impossible to connect the dots,

80
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but now looking backwards, it's very easy for me to connect the dots going, Oh, I'm here.

81
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But it's very I mean, maybe I'm wrong.

82
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Maybe I should go back and ask Kath. I interviewed Kath a long time ago.

83
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I agree years ago, but we didn't talk about your appointment and I'm just very interested that somewhere that was.

84
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I mean, I know that the CPF has many outside links,

85
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but it's still part of a university and for a medical research institute to hire somebody with your background in operations and logistics.

86
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I mean clearly now it makes a great deal of sense. But at the time it was quite an unusual step.

87
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I mean, are there many other people like you working in biomedical research?

88
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So, yeah, that's a very good point.

89
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And I still receive this question. Much often like recently.

90
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After all, what we have done,

91
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like how we were able to to communicate what you are capable of doing and how Kath was able to communicate to you what she wants.

92
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Yes, yes. Because we like speak different language.

93
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Not different language in terms of language, I mean in terms of terminologies and concepts.

94
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So it was very interesting when we heard when we did this interview and the appointment, it was flawless.

95
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You know, Cath knew exactly what she wanted. And I was able to express myself very well to her.

96
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And trust me, the day with I when I left the clinical manufacturing facility, going back home, I was.

97
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They're very confident. About this.

98
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This discussion was very positive. And yeah, you know, in a week or so I received this confirmation and started all the negotiation.

99
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I did not know that gas was one of the important, you know, very highly respected scientists in the field.

100
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And I negotiated the the the package, you know, in a ways.

101
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So. Later on, I understood that it was a struggle for her.

102
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It was a struggle for her actually to convince the university to to hire me because it was like,

103
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yeah, so this guy is very far from the written textbook about what you want.

104
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You know, when you say a textbook answer, I was the opposite of a textbook answer.

105
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Yes. Yes. And one of my colleagues, Richard Terence, uh, who's a Cup qualifier person,

106
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he told me once that when Cas decided to to have you join the team, she told them, Yeah, I'm bringing someone you can consider as a wildcard.

107
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Yeah. So honestly speaking, I did not know.

108
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What does that mean? So I had you to google it if. If that was a good or bad thing.

109
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It can be both. It can be both. Yeah, exactly.

110
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So, yeah, this is how it started. Yeah.

111
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Tony Jones Well, you joined the team 22nd of January.

112
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I received an email from Cath telling me, Let's meet in front of the of the green building.

113
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1:55 p.m. Okay, we're going to meet Sara Gilbert.

114
00:12:32,980 --> 00:12:37,530
Okay. So I did not know who was Sara Gilbert and who.

115
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Yeah, I'm still trying to know who's Kath GREENE.

116
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. And me and her, we went together and we met Sara Gilbert were on the 22nd at 2 p.m.

117
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You know, significant change was a turning point for the facility operation.

118
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Were both of them what they were discussing?

119
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Obviously, which came to be known now COVID.

120
00:13:07,100 --> 00:13:11,240
Yeah. Yeah. So when I'm just asking everybody this question,

121
00:13:12,020 --> 00:13:20,750
was that the first time you became aware that COVID was potentially a pandemic threat, or had you heard about it before that?

122
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No, I, uh. So I can't recall exactly how I first heard about the COVID 19.

123
00:13:28,530 --> 00:13:36,860
Hmm. But I remember that I was following the news, which was covering a new virus spreading in the city of Wuhan, China.

124
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And I assumed, like many others, that we are probably dealing with an epidemic spreading immensely in certain geographic area.

125
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Like most of the viruses we heard of in the past 20 years or so, like size or mass.

126
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Even when some countries starting started imposing travel restrictions.

127
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So I did not bother and you know, it did not bother me at the beginning.

128
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I was still under the impression that it would only last for a couple of months.

129
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But after I started seeing the unforgettable images and videos of people falling in the streets and not being attended by medical staff,

130
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yeah, it became I became definitely concerned about it.

131
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And that was, I believe, around that period of time, third week of January.

132
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About its potential impact on the world, especially since it was a new virus with no known cure or vaccine at the time.

133
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So tell me more about your meeting, your initial meeting with Kath and Sara Gilbert.

134
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What what was the goal of that meeting? What was the decision that was taken there?

135
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Yeah, so that was my third working day, obviously very busy week.

136
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So. I was not aware of the purpose of the meeting.

137
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I thought it would be an introductory meeting to Professor Gilbert.

138
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However, it turned out that in this particular meeting the so the main purpose was a major shift in the facility's operation was about to happen and,

139
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and of the senior operations manager. So. Yeah, I'm supposed to be there?

140
00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:24,590
Yeah. Yeah. Catanzaro decided to reprioritize the efforts towards the new virus.

141
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So they decided to reprioritize the, you know, the, uh, the goals and.

142
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Most wanted. There was a fine. They have to fine tune a balance.

143
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Like to find the balance here. Whether they prioritise the new virus or.

144
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Which will three which will impose postponing the ongoing very important projects at

145
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the time on developing the vaccine like for Ebola and NIPA until further notice.

146
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So how do we do that and how do we decide to make that decision?

147
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Uh, so I try to, you know, to understand to what?

148
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What's going on at the time. And by the way.

149
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I, I was still getting the hang of, of the first week and other was trying to figure out my way around the facility.

150
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I didn't even knew if I have a designated work workspace or not.

151
00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:39,530
So yeah. Uh, so but I realised your position was a new position as well, wasn't it?

152
00:16:39,530 --> 00:16:45,740
So there must have been an established management hierarchy that you have to feel your way into.

153
00:16:46,540 --> 00:16:50,279
So my position. Was newly created.

154
00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:57,580
Created by Kathy Griffin. And never existed before in this clinical manufacturing facility.

155
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So and I have to fit myself there.

156
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I have to meet other. Senior people within the team.

157
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I have to meet other operators within the team. I have to introduce myself.

158
00:17:10,630 --> 00:17:15,490
It was very difficult to you know, it was a bit challenging.

159
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How would I work with everybody?

160
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Because I work, you know, across all the teams.

161
00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:34,310
So. So how would I be able to to extract the information I want?

162
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How would I be able to analyse it and how would I make decisions or at least propose options and solutions to cast to other teams?

163
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To Sara Gilbert. Uh, so yes.

164
00:17:50,180 --> 00:17:57,710
Uh. So yeah, as I said, it was a very busy week and then sent out a very busy year.

165
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,590
So I mean the first task must have been to.

166
00:18:03,980 --> 00:18:11,840
So the first yes, the first shut down the existing, the existing research programs and I've talked to MRO little bit about that.

167
00:18:12,530 --> 00:18:15,530
What was that what was the challenge there? Yeah.

168
00:18:15,530 --> 00:18:22,550
So the first task for me was a bit yeah, a step ahead of this.

169
00:18:23,150 --> 00:18:27,770
So Kath asked me to have a discussion with our two qualified persons.

170
00:18:27,770 --> 00:18:31,100
And are you familiar with the term queue? No, I'm not actually.

171
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:34,970
So. So, yes. Yes. Occupy is a.

172
00:18:35,940 --> 00:18:43,010
Is the person who certifies a badge to go for to be up to go for a clinical trial.

173
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So they are responsible, legally responsible for the safety of the vaccine.

174
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Let's say once you inject it in a human right for human use.

175
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So that's a very. High responsibility.

176
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So the two senior cubs at the time, uh, Dr. Adrian Notary and Dr. Richard Tarrant.

177
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Uh, so Kath asked me to have a discussion with them and to figure out what is the plan and what are the timelines.

178
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Uh, and when I say the plan is like the actual plans in terms of available resources,

179
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what other resources we would need, what, what are the timelines?

180
00:19:25,740 --> 00:19:31,500
When we talk about these resources, we talk about human resources, we talk about materials,

181
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we talk about equipment, we talk about subcontractors, all these things.

182
00:19:35,790 --> 00:19:43,290
So that was my first task. Um, so I had this discussion with both of them.

183
00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:52,680
Obviously, it's, yeah, it was a bit awkward sitting with two very senior scientists, I would say.

184
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:57,089
And maybe you already, you already Georgina,

185
00:19:57,090 --> 00:20:04,200
you already realised that I'm probably the only member of the team who does not have any relevant scientific background.

186
00:20:04,350 --> 00:20:12,750
Yes, yes, yes, I do realise that. Yeah. And, and it's very important to realise that it was.

187
00:20:14,990 --> 00:20:22,280
A challenge in terms of communication because scientists, they communicate with very strong terminologies.

188
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And they use terms I never heard of.

189
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And not only me like they even like. And this is the way how they communicate.

190
00:20:32,730 --> 00:20:36,550
It is nothing wrong with that. But of course, it's a it's a challenge.

191
00:20:37,870 --> 00:20:42,640
So. But I focussed on objectifying things.

192
00:20:43,060 --> 00:20:47,620
I did not bother with the details. So it's like the engineering way of thinking.

193
00:20:47,770 --> 00:20:50,950
Mm hmm. So and we were discussing.

194
00:20:50,950 --> 00:20:59,079
So the cubes had two methods under consideration, two manufacturing methods under consideration,

195
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:08,050
and there was no consensus on which one should be tested first or edit or which is the the most senior QB and.

196
00:21:09,100 --> 00:21:14,139
The most senior at the time and in the CBS and some of the duration.

197
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Also, she once suggested that we follow the method which has been used before in vaccine manufacturing.

198
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:26,410
The CBS, but was relatively consumed much time in comparison with the Northern Missile, which is the new one.

199
00:21:27,730 --> 00:21:36,450
Okay. But we have an opportunity to use the new muscle, which could save us also at times.

200
00:21:36,450 --> 00:21:42,100
So it's a huge gain. A. Uh, it's a huge gain if if it is successful.

201
00:21:42,490 --> 00:21:50,610
If. And then, yeah, my operational sense came into practice.

202
00:21:50,740 --> 00:21:55,890
I told and I said, okay, let's draw a timeline for both.

203
00:21:57,050 --> 00:22:01,850
And how long did it or how long would it take you?

204
00:22:03,810 --> 00:22:14,380
To see. If this process will fade, how long would it take you to be confident to say it failed?

205
00:22:14,620 --> 00:22:19,750
If it is, if it is really failing? She said, Why are you asking that?

206
00:22:21,550 --> 00:22:26,290
I said, Look, it's good if we're going to fail. It's fail faster so we can succeed sooner.

207
00:22:28,990 --> 00:22:32,139
And yeah, she did not like it at the time.

208
00:22:32,140 --> 00:22:36,910
She said, I know what I'm doing here. We cannot we cannot just think about it.

209
00:22:36,910 --> 00:22:41,230
And why would we waste our time in something we know that it will fail?

210
00:22:41,500 --> 00:22:49,330
Okay. Yeah, because we don't know that it will fail. So let's fail faster so we can succeed sooner if we're going to fail.

211
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:56,100
And yeah, so the plan I submitted my recommendation to Cath had a discussion with her and yes,

212
00:22:56,380 --> 00:23:05,710
they went with that partially as my understanding that they went with, with this recommendation started in parallel.

213
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:17,190
Uh, working documentation wise on the, on the, uh, traditional manufacturing method, which we are already experienced and, and the other one,

214
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:26,160
uh, so it don't know told me it would take two weeks, but it took a week or so to, to identify that this process will not work out.

215
00:23:26,490 --> 00:23:32,280
Right. Which was, which was a great gain by the way. So it was like hitting two birds with one stone.

216
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:41,909
We, we knew that one process needs improvement and at the same time, we saved a lot of time rather than having never ending discussions,

217
00:23:41,910 --> 00:23:45,390
you know, between the team, this one, that one, this one with that one. Oh yeah.

218
00:23:45,630 --> 00:23:50,110
So that was my first desk. Oh, very interesting.

219
00:23:50,140 --> 00:23:57,370
Yes, yes, yes. And and so once the the the manufacturing got underway.

220
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,090
Yes. What what did your life look like?

221
00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:06,490
I mean, where were you actually going? In to the the centre or were you working remotely.

222
00:24:07,030 --> 00:24:13,889
The facility. Okay, So. So this year we're still in January, don't we all?

223
00:24:13,890 --> 00:24:17,820
Are we still. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we haven't, we haven't got to lockdown yet.

224
00:24:18,090 --> 00:24:26,670
I think we were still in the first in the last week of January or first week of February.

225
00:24:26,710 --> 00:24:30,180
Yeah. We were still in January. Yeah. Oh yeah.

226
00:24:31,490 --> 00:24:34,720
And, you know, time was the rarest currency at that stage.

227
00:24:36,180 --> 00:24:41,920
But you had you so you did have the the the month of February and and the beginning of March.

228
00:24:41,970 --> 00:24:49,680
Yes. So the before everything had to conform to the guidelines on social distancing.

229
00:24:49,710 --> 00:24:55,290
Yes. And so, yes, in order to get to really get to know the people in the facility.

230
00:24:55,630 --> 00:25:06,209
Yes. Yes. And I think that COVID at that time was a gift to me, you know, to to to show like to, you know,

231
00:25:06,210 --> 00:25:12,210
to to try things in practice of my previous experience so that at that point,

232
00:25:12,210 --> 00:25:17,850
I started working on business continuity plans, emergency preparation plans.

233
00:25:19,460 --> 00:25:23,790
And so I. Disaster recovery policies.

234
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:34,290
So if. For example, I immediately started communicating with everybody to produce risk register, identifying business critical areas.

235
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:43,250
What are the critical activities and skills? Obviously, it was also new terminology to my colleagues, What are you talking about?

236
00:25:43,290 --> 00:25:45,840
So I thought, okay, don't worry, I will simplify everything to you.

237
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:53,460
So I try to make everything look simple and very concise, easy, very short communication to everybody collecting information.

238
00:25:54,060 --> 00:25:57,090
But I was what I was achieving with that.

239
00:25:57,090 --> 00:26:05,700
If key individuals in the business critical activities can be replicated, can assign deputies.

240
00:26:05,940 --> 00:26:16,380
All of that I started working on in January because this is what I do ensure if our plan contingencies does not affect our GMP compliance,

241
00:26:16,620 --> 00:26:22,410
because this GMP thing is very, very regulated and you know, like we have to be.

242
00:26:23,370 --> 00:26:27,270
So there is no room for manoeuvring in terms of compliance.

243
00:26:27,870 --> 00:26:35,070
And at the same time in emergency response, you know, maybe you heard about this, like when they say perfection is the enemy of good.

244
00:26:35,730 --> 00:26:43,060
So yeah, okay. So you can. Chayes The fiction in the normal situation where everybody can be successful, you know.

245
00:26:43,390 --> 00:26:49,150
When you go with the flow, but now everybody's against the flow of with everything happening.

246
00:26:49,960 --> 00:27:01,490
So and also what I prepared analysed our decision tree for taking on your activity is projects that

247
00:27:01,540 --> 00:27:07,149
are emergency staged or in the beginning of the conversation I mentioned to you there was a balance.

248
00:27:07,150 --> 00:27:18,729
Whether we shut down everything which Emma talked about with you and or whether we start working the starting material while still working,

249
00:27:18,730 --> 00:27:28,750
but a bit slower on the current projects. So there was a decision tree for decision making to make this draw scenarios.

250
00:27:29,350 --> 00:27:39,160
I had to draw scenarios six communication plans and emergency hierarchy at all levels so nobody else feels left behind.

251
00:27:40,870 --> 00:27:47,320
And also it was yeah, it was tough to say. That's one of the scenarios of if whole team went went down.

252
00:27:47,860 --> 00:27:52,780
And so yeah, it's now, you know, it was taking me back three years,

253
00:27:52,780 --> 00:27:58,750
literally three years back thinking about what about what was happening in January then it is a different plan.

254
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,980
Shall we have a framework agreements with other departments in the university

255
00:28:03,130 --> 00:28:08,380
who have DABS who can outsource their There's time to us and their people,

256
00:28:08,380 --> 00:28:18,280
to us, their equipment? Would that be compliant facilities vendors to take over critical activities, if not safe areas are identified?

257
00:28:18,670 --> 00:28:29,139
Can we plan for contingency areas? This literally was part of what I, I produced and worked on, which has nothing to do,

258
00:28:29,140 --> 00:28:32,860
by the way, with the clinical manufacturing, with the science, with this, with everything.

259
00:28:33,310 --> 00:28:39,310
And that's why maybe Cath keeps mentioning that we have a diverse team because it was at that time.

260
00:28:40,300 --> 00:28:45,670
Yeah, it was a lot of pressure on my colleagues also for me to extract all this, all this information.

261
00:28:46,060 --> 00:28:49,350
No, I was wondering whether how they reacted to that.

262
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:56,020
They think it was unnecessary bureaucracy. No, it was I because the way I tried to make it short and simple.

263
00:28:57,190 --> 00:29:02,319
So if if it's nice, if I look back at my records when I ask you something,

264
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:10,240
I just make it bullet points very short thing sometimes just yes or no answer, and then I compile it, analyse it and present it.

265
00:29:10,810 --> 00:29:17,170
So also, are we able to allocate more reserves of consumables and material?

266
00:29:18,460 --> 00:29:21,580
Yes, maybe. Yes. Do we have space to store that?

267
00:29:21,580 --> 00:29:26,649
Oh no. So what should we do? Think about short, short shelf life items?

268
00:29:26,650 --> 00:29:29,800
You will never think they will run out of dry ice, for example.

269
00:29:30,190 --> 00:29:33,729
Oh, okay. But so what shall we do?

270
00:29:33,730 --> 00:29:39,520
There was in terms if lockdown happens, but that was the story of my life and previous years,

271
00:29:40,420 --> 00:29:45,450
and especially when we were distributing the safe food and in the war zone.

272
00:29:46,180 --> 00:29:58,149
So yeah so worked on this conducts a preventive maintenance for the equipment what is due let's say in the next 6 to 12 months.

273
00:29:58,150 --> 00:30:07,959
We started doing preventive maintenance for that. So we don't have any field machines or equipment, have a standby technology and I.T. equipment.

274
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:20,050
We also set emergency budget to access to cash accounts and budget holders in case we so the university finance team went down.

275
00:30:21,850 --> 00:30:34,809
So, yeah, so this was the business continuity plan side of things in terms of emergency preparation plan worked on what is our unified statement,

276
00:30:34,810 --> 00:30:38,799
which is sound weird because we are a subunit of a subunit within university.

277
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:46,690
Well, not an independent body, but at that time you have to act like you are an independent body because you don't know who will stay,

278
00:30:47,410 --> 00:30:58,330
who who will remain standing, who's the last man standing, And yes, central data board on which we can have access,

279
00:30:58,630 --> 00:31:04,840
visible access to only critical deliverables and be concise, don't distract people.

280
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:11,680
Uh, availability and the ability of resources, especially if we're looking at partners as well.

281
00:31:12,710 --> 00:31:22,910
Uh, yeah. And identify potential risk problems, assign responsibilities than mitigation actions we have reviewed also.

282
00:31:23,890 --> 00:31:32,290
Our distribution processes. Yeah. So. Try to optimise the operation as much as possible,

283
00:31:32,290 --> 00:31:42,610
but also to streamline it and to simplify it so everybody will will understand what the what is required from them.

284
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,360
Communication and transparency and visibility was key.

285
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:52,500
Uh, yeah. So that that was my January and early September.

286
00:31:53,050 --> 00:32:09,220
Mm hmm. So, I mean, one thing that comes to mind is whether the fact that you were treating the likely evolution of the pandemic as an emergency,

287
00:32:09,220 --> 00:32:18,700
as severe as what you'd seen in Syria. Do you think that it kind of increased the level of alarm among your colleagues or

288
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:23,890
the sense of urgency among your colleagues about what they were about to embark on?

289
00:32:24,970 --> 00:32:28,500
Yes. So. I believe I have.

290
00:32:28,530 --> 00:32:33,250
I had this. I saw this as an opportunity.

291
00:32:34,540 --> 00:32:39,479
To. To implement.

292
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,809
What time? What? What I. I know.

293
00:32:42,810 --> 00:32:49,560
And I can do. And I had yes, I had the sense that this is a serious emergency response.

294
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,350
And part of it is like we are.

295
00:32:56,450 --> 00:33:00,080
Yes, it is an emergency planning phase.

296
00:33:00,380 --> 00:33:09,760
If we think about it this way, it's a planning phase. But in no time it's became like there's no time to plan.

297
00:33:09,910 --> 00:33:14,470
Now it's execution. Yes. So I was used to that.

298
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:20,530
I was used to that. So planning is good, but you have to plan for.

299
00:33:22,750 --> 00:33:27,340
Scenarios. And, you know, you have to think about everything, what could happen.

300
00:33:28,060 --> 00:33:31,870
And when you think about the.

301
00:33:32,950 --> 00:33:40,210
So resources are limited, so you have to be realistic in your plans and what you can access.

302
00:33:40,690 --> 00:33:46,290
This created the sense of. Collaboration actually, within the team.

303
00:33:46,740 --> 00:33:52,470
Hmm. Uh, some people were like, Yeah, that's too much information.

304
00:33:54,130 --> 00:34:02,520
But they also, you know. They were also motivated to try to figure out what what they were trying to do.

305
00:34:03,630 --> 00:34:08,340
And yeah, I. As I mentioned, I was able to communicate.

306
00:34:08,350 --> 00:34:16,870
I was able to build this skill of communicating with people where I never met community leaders, different cultures, implementers on the ground.

307
00:34:16,900 --> 00:34:23,830
Taxi drivers became logistics experts because you couldn't find anyone to do that.

308
00:34:24,220 --> 00:34:26,860
You have to train them. You have to simplify everything to them.

309
00:34:26,860 --> 00:34:34,720
And you have also to maintain due diligence to to to ensure segregation of duties, you know, all these things.

310
00:34:35,290 --> 00:34:36,790
So it came into practice.

311
00:34:38,230 --> 00:34:48,220
And so when you got to the implementation stage, what were some of the key stories that you remember from that time about challenges that you met?

312
00:34:48,910 --> 00:34:55,690
Well, implement program. Yeah, well, establish a compensation system for the four extra hours worked.

313
00:34:56,820 --> 00:35:03,490
But now, you know, everything looked nice, but now we would have to do additional hours.

314
00:35:04,860 --> 00:35:08,120
So we it's a bit. Yeah.

315
00:35:08,130 --> 00:35:19,200
It. What. It's not and. Easy thing to do within such a scale institute to to change the compensation system.

316
00:35:20,100 --> 00:35:25,530
So usually it is it is not a paid thing.

317
00:35:25,530 --> 00:35:29,040
It's it's more of a compensation. I was like, toil. Yeah.

318
00:35:29,330 --> 00:35:32,459
And the university has their policy. It's published on the website.

319
00:35:32,460 --> 00:35:38,400
But it cannot is you cannot have everybody.

320
00:35:39,370 --> 00:35:45,310
Aligned and committed to what you're trying to achieve without thinking of them as.

321
00:35:46,290 --> 00:35:50,340
Yeah, but they all you have to. So this was one of the challenges.

322
00:35:50,610 --> 00:35:54,360
And nobody can take time off and do when you're all working so hard.

323
00:35:54,390 --> 00:35:57,570
There isn't time for anybody to take time off. Yeah.

324
00:35:57,570 --> 00:36:02,160
So cast, Cath, while Cath is very smart and a great leader.

325
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:08,970
So I remember the day when she said, okay, it seems like we're not in a job anymore.

326
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:13,540
This is a mission. So it's not a normal job.

327
00:36:13,690 --> 00:36:17,499
It's a mission. So and when you think about it, yeah, it's the mission.

328
00:36:17,500 --> 00:36:20,590
It's a global scale. So we are becoming heroes. Maybe.

329
00:36:20,860 --> 00:36:26,260
Maybe accidental heroes. We don't know. Okay, so we had this.

330
00:36:26,740 --> 00:36:34,150
I saw that in the faces is the eyes and the way my colleagues used to talk and communicate and work.

331
00:36:34,930 --> 00:36:41,360
Everybody saw this as as a mission. Not as a daily job as before.

332
00:36:42,140 --> 00:36:53,380
So. And you know, as a leader, you create direction, you identify the direction and you define alignment with all what's going on.

333
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:59,720
But also, you have to gain commitment and commitment that is gained with multiple ways.

334
00:36:59,730 --> 00:37:08,880
It's not black or white. So, yeah, so commitment was one of the challenges for me to, to, to implement.

335
00:37:09,180 --> 00:37:15,090
So as I mentioned, this compensation system, the limitation of resources.

336
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:26,430
So and here comes how we can, you know, how we can balance simplicity in scale.

337
00:37:27,550 --> 00:37:30,880
And at the same time how we can maintain.

338
00:37:32,330 --> 00:37:37,909
Eyes on the prize. Uh, so, yeah, so it was.

339
00:37:37,910 --> 00:37:42,080
It was, uh. But but it wasn't.

340
00:37:42,590 --> 00:37:51,530
I would say it wasn't that. Challenging the implementation itself because we knew what we wanted to do.

341
00:37:53,870 --> 00:37:57,680
And how to do it, of course, how to fix. Because.

342
00:37:58,010 --> 00:38:01,540
Because we already knew who can backfill for who, who can't.

343
00:38:01,910 --> 00:38:10,100
Yes. So one of the things I always. Try to achieve is adding more capacity from the existing resources.

344
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:15,670
So. And this is. Operations management.

345
00:38:16,740 --> 00:38:21,780
So, you know, like in the normal context, managers all the time,

346
00:38:21,780 --> 00:38:28,620
they try to add more headcounts, get more resources, get more people to work in their team.

347
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:34,010
But. Scott It's very it costs this this resource at the time.

348
00:38:34,020 --> 00:38:40,880
And also one of my other challenges was is to to recruit new people to come and work with us.

349
00:38:42,770 --> 00:38:46,260
So. So I had to.

350
00:38:47,530 --> 00:38:57,220
To work on that. Were you are you able to to to try to figure out so this individual's doing this in this lap,

351
00:38:57,670 --> 00:39:03,430
would they be able to we are another to put on another hat to do something else.

352
00:39:03,970 --> 00:39:11,110
How would they figure it out without knowing what they're doing? Because I as I said, I objectify things, but I don't know what are those things?

353
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:18,880
So easy questions, simple questions with everybody, you know, discussion here, quick chat there.

354
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:26,140
Try to understand what's going on here with this person. So and this led to to a fully optimised team.

355
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:35,210
And everybody was working around the clock like a beehive. So this was the thing about the implementation in terms of resources other.

356
00:39:35,670 --> 00:39:40,780
So we started the project and. Life was good working on it.

357
00:39:40,910 --> 00:39:50,450
And here we go. Early March. And then, you know, or we became with the difficulties of the flights.

358
00:39:51,760 --> 00:40:01,350
There was the. No commercial flights where there were a lot of difficulties, uh, continuous cancellations.

359
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,250
Uh, you cannot guarantee that your shipment will arrive.

360
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:17,700
So there was a time, I believe the first week of March, Cathy came to me and she said we were supposed to be shipping some.

361
00:40:18,690 --> 00:40:24,210
I think still growth medium to a company in Italy.

362
00:40:25,430 --> 00:40:28,280
So we were supposed to ship the thing,

363
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:37,670
but due to the difficulties with with flights to Italy and the fact we might actually need it for ourselves in our manufacturing campaign,

364
00:40:38,210 --> 00:40:42,440
we have decided not to proceed. Do you think that you can somehow.

365
00:40:43,610 --> 00:40:50,690
Figure out a way funny, considering that you have the guy who is who has supply chain experience.

366
00:40:50,700 --> 00:41:00,530
Okay. For us to place an order for. I think what was it was a small order like two litres of this medium from a company in Ireland.

367
00:41:00,590 --> 00:41:07,650
Fujifilm is. And you ship it to Italy.

368
00:41:08,220 --> 00:41:18,120
So ships. Something from Ireland to Italy rather than us, because we already identified this material as cause material.

369
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:22,320
We might need it and will not be able to source it.

370
00:41:22,950 --> 00:41:27,700
Okay. Yeah. So that was one of the challenges.

371
00:41:27,700 --> 00:41:34,000
Of course, I was able to do that, luckily, and with the support of my team to figure out what is this material,

372
00:41:34,330 --> 00:41:39,190
would it be considered as a dangerous goods and the to classification?

373
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:44,350
Uh, you know, all these things come, all the details matter. And how did you resolve that?

374
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:49,270
Because I have heard the story about the chartering of a private jet.

375
00:41:49,590 --> 00:41:54,520
Oh, yeah. So this is the stuff that's. Yeah, this is not the same story.

376
00:41:55,390 --> 00:41:59,590
Okay. There are a lot of stories like this. So, yeah.

377
00:41:59,590 --> 00:42:04,220
So this one, how I resolved that. Simple.

378
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,450
I talk to the people in Fujifilm, I talk to the people in Italy.

379
00:42:07,450 --> 00:42:14,350
It's always about communication, you know, communication, transparency, Try to be as clear as possible and concise.

380
00:42:14,770 --> 00:42:18,760
Talk to both sides so we have material.

381
00:42:18,940 --> 00:42:22,269
Does it exist? Yes, we have it in stock. This people read this material?

382
00:42:22,270 --> 00:42:25,989
Yeah. Nice. How would we send this to the. We have all these options.

383
00:42:25,990 --> 00:42:31,780
Okay. How do we make sure it arrives there? Safe temperature, temperature monitored, you know, all these things.

384
00:42:32,620 --> 00:42:42,010
So I've mapped everything possible. And if you remember, I think that happened 10th or 11th of March, just at the beginning of the lockdown.

385
00:42:43,930 --> 00:42:47,960
So panic attack everywhere. And.

386
00:42:48,290 --> 00:42:52,280
Yeah. So where's the money? The money? Kath told me.

387
00:42:52,290 --> 00:42:56,100
Yeah, you can use this grant quote. Okay. Um.

388
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:03,730
I just shifted from Ireland to Italy with the with the best suitable way.

389
00:43:03,770 --> 00:43:11,100
It wasn't that complicated. Italy. Yeah, but, you know, very close and dynamic and continuous communication.

390
00:43:11,390 --> 00:43:15,200
So it's not like, yeah, please send this thing and then disappear.

391
00:43:16,340 --> 00:43:23,840
Of course it has a lot of details, but if I look back at the correspondence, you would find all the details was simplified in one page.

392
00:43:24,860 --> 00:43:31,700
So no needs in this situation, no need for those very long essays and, you know, unnecessary communications.

393
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:38,060
So yeah. While shift to Advent, Advent were happy to have it, they were working.

394
00:43:38,390 --> 00:43:43,820
Advent is the the partners the other manufacturing company in Italy.

395
00:43:44,150 --> 00:43:48,229
Yes. Who were going to manufacture. Yes. Is of the vaccine for the trials.

396
00:43:48,230 --> 00:43:52,610
The clinical trials. Yeah. Yeah. So that was March. We were very happy.

397
00:43:52,610 --> 00:43:59,149
I still have the picture of the of the first file ever of this vaccine when it was labelled.

398
00:43:59,150 --> 00:44:02,330
I help the team to do the labelling.

399
00:44:02,330 --> 00:44:03,319
It's many were labelling.

400
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:10,680
So I remember I was working with my colleagues, labelling the table, sticking the labels that you know which, which is something.

401
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:20,090
Yeah. We used to stick labels of boxes, we used to ship them to South Sudan or so it's, it's, it's same context, different material of course.

402
00:44:20,810 --> 00:44:24,230
Yeah. Uh. Then.

403
00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:30,670
Yeah, then we had that. That story about the charter plane.

404
00:44:31,850 --> 00:44:38,780
I. Yeah, it was famous. It was famous. Well, tell me the story again for the benefit of people who haven't heard it before.

405
00:44:40,170 --> 00:44:45,330
Okay. So there was a you know, so Advent had made their patch.

406
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:51,370
So to continue in the clinical trial and by the way, most of our time telling you now.

407
00:44:51,730 --> 00:44:54,190
So when I say to continue the clinical trial.

408
00:44:55,480 --> 00:45:04,480
At that time, I knew that this is very important material, but I did not know what is the purpose of that material was shipping from home from Advent.

409
00:45:04,690 --> 00:45:08,930
But the key is. Simplify things.

410
00:45:08,940 --> 00:45:17,070
I keep always telling this to me, my colleagues and I was very called, by the way, during the whole thing, and they made the comments.

411
00:45:17,790 --> 00:45:22,350
Some of them they used always to make a comment on You are so calm, so relaxed all the time, what's going on?

412
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:31,879
So it was good. I don't know. So it's it's all good. Advent that time was very difficult.

413
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:38,150
And in Italy, if you remember, I believe I don't remember that was maybe in May.

414
00:45:39,150 --> 00:45:42,180
Maybe in May. So.

415
00:45:44,190 --> 00:45:49,500
Advent made this batch, though it was very small batch, like less than half a litre.

416
00:45:49,510 --> 00:45:52,920
I think that's the volume of the material.

417
00:45:54,490 --> 00:45:57,860
But that's okay. That's enough. I think that was enough for about 500 doses.

418
00:45:57,890 --> 00:46:02,080
That right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So.

419
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:07,000
And. We were trying to ship the material.

420
00:46:07,020 --> 00:46:11,530
We had this giant big pharma astrazeneca some.

421
00:46:12,180 --> 00:46:16,919
So communication already started. We are talking to them.

422
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,170
They're talking to us. We are communicating with them.

423
00:46:19,170 --> 00:46:28,710
I am communicating with them with regards to the operation, to the distribution, to clinical sites, which was very I will come to that later and.

424
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:38,950
And then we had this. This 500 dosage which we need to ship from Italy.

425
00:46:40,070 --> 00:46:44,270
Continuous cancellation of flights. No flights coming from Italy at that time.

426
00:46:44,720 --> 00:46:48,700
Okay. So what shall we do? No.

427
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:55,870
No. Courier company was able to guarantee or confirm that they were able to ship the material.

428
00:46:56,350 --> 00:47:01,330
Very specialised companies, of course, we work with because it's a cold chain, supply chain.

429
00:47:01,540 --> 00:47:04,720
It's not a normal supply chain or ambient temperature.

430
00:47:08,260 --> 00:47:15,190
And so, again, I establish this communication, this very good relationship with the people in Italy.

431
00:47:15,190 --> 00:47:21,760
So I asked them how they will help people leave Italy if they want to leave in the lockdown.

432
00:47:22,540 --> 00:47:28,960
So they said, yeah, it depends. But some people, they managed to leave Italy with using mottos like it's okay.

433
00:47:29,710 --> 00:47:40,460
So I was like, okay, So I opened Google Earth and Google Maps and tried to figure out how a motorcycle guy could be able to do that.

434
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:45,219
Are we able to maintain the -80 temperature using dry eyes?

435
00:47:45,220 --> 00:47:49,620
How we replenish the dry ice? Are there points in this route?

436
00:47:49,630 --> 00:47:52,630
So it was like I believe it was like 32 hours.

437
00:47:52,630 --> 00:48:01,360
And and also, how would they again, are we are we legally smuggling them or is it illegal to do what I'm doing here?

438
00:48:01,930 --> 00:48:09,760
And then then I called the friend who is a Jesuit, who is an Air Force pilot in Jordan.

439
00:48:09,940 --> 00:48:15,700
I called him and I said, Listen, are we able now to charter planes?

440
00:48:17,290 --> 00:48:26,290
And he said, If you have clearance like the the necessary approvals from the destination, yes, you can do that.

441
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:38,080
I took two cars and I told her, Listen. So our friends in Italy, they think it's somewhat just, I could think,

442
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:43,709
ignore this idea because it will be a complete disaster if we cannot replenish that dry ice.

443
00:48:43,710 --> 00:48:51,390
And then we have to throw away the 500, the very precious 500 doses, dosages and.

444
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:57,780
Do you know that we can charter plane? I just was like, Really?

445
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,450
Yeah. We can shelter clean. Okay.

446
00:49:01,470 --> 00:49:05,460
She took to Andy Pollard. She talked to Sara Gilbert.

447
00:49:05,700 --> 00:49:12,270
Sara I remember. I remember when Sara Ehman e-mailed back and said.

448
00:49:13,750 --> 00:49:17,890
So can we do that? Is this something positive?

449
00:49:18,100 --> 00:49:21,580
I don't remember how she wrote that, but can we look into that option?

450
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:29,120
I was like, Yeah, of course. So again, you know, this very nice feeling of doing something different.

451
00:49:29,140 --> 00:49:32,860
The only constant is the change, as you can see. Okay.

452
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:41,260
I talked to our friends again in Italy. Uh, contacted multiple companies who can provide charter plane.

453
00:49:42,050 --> 00:49:48,310
Uh, yeah, and I remember, So we got the calls for that.

454
00:49:48,310 --> 00:49:53,050
So I told Cath, listen, for sure, it's less than six figures.

455
00:49:54,540 --> 00:49:57,900
But I don't know. How much would that be? So.

456
00:49:59,510 --> 00:50:09,380
Can you figure out if we can pay for that? So silence, a moment of silence for about three, 4 hours.

457
00:50:09,390 --> 00:50:16,540
Then she came back to me and she said. Can you get us the exact cause for that?

458
00:50:16,930 --> 00:50:20,270
I said, Yeah, of course I can do that. So the.

459
00:50:21,330 --> 00:50:24,600
We got the course. It was five figures, obviously.

460
00:50:25,410 --> 00:50:30,180
Um. And I waited for the approvals.

461
00:50:30,770 --> 00:50:40,100
Then we had this kind of placing all these purchase orders, the documentation, things, you know, the institutional processes.

462
00:50:40,250 --> 00:50:45,920
Mm hmm. We had no time to do that. It's like multiple chains of approvals or everything, like.

463
00:50:46,100 --> 00:50:54,380
So I was like, Listen, guys, if if we can have a higher level commitment by email, then we can deal with that.

464
00:50:55,590 --> 00:50:57,660
That? Yes. You're happy to pay for that.

465
00:50:59,250 --> 00:51:06,330
AstraZeneca guys came back and said like and said, Yes, we're happy to do that if you guys can make it happen.

466
00:51:07,590 --> 00:51:11,930
I was very happy and very proud that this response came from this giant monster.

467
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:27,350
Yeah, I can't do that. Why not? So. Instructed everybody to go to to mobilise stoked again to my friends in Italy told them, yeah, this is happening.

468
00:51:27,390 --> 00:51:32,120
There was like they were like, Oh great. So prepared everything.

469
00:51:32,630 --> 00:51:40,490
I was walking in the corridor and, and the offices and Oxford's and, and, and the board of it.

470
00:51:40,670 --> 00:51:45,049
The WHO led the Professor Antipolo to lead the clinical trials.

471
00:51:45,050 --> 00:51:53,520
He was like, Oh, you are almost right. I said, yeah, I'm I'm, you know, I wasn't you when like, there was no time for introductions at the time.

472
00:51:54,210 --> 00:52:00,930
He knows there are in the emails I think but never and we all familiar faces.

473
00:52:00,930 --> 00:52:04,680
But there was no time and they were not face to face meetings at the time.

474
00:52:04,910 --> 00:52:07,980
And then within the units themselves, with the social distancing, everything.

475
00:52:08,310 --> 00:52:12,810
And of course we were key workers. I had to cycle 40 minutes to work every day back and forth.

476
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:16,230
You know all that thing well, I was like, yeah, I'm I'm not.

477
00:52:17,310 --> 00:52:22,080
Yeah, you are. The chance to clean good. So would we.

478
00:52:22,410 --> 00:52:28,660
So what do we have the the the vaccine by tomorrow I said yeah, yeah.

479
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:32,070
I understood you wanted it by 3 p.m. He said, yeah.

480
00:52:32,430 --> 00:52:40,980
I said yeah I hope my, my, my plans shows that you would have it by 1 p.m. in Oxford and literally this is exactly what's happened.

481
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:46,100
And yeah, so Kath wrote about it in her book.

482
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:59,230
I was very happy to see that, that she mentioned it since like Rockstar, I did not realise actually that was too important until I saw it in the book.

483
00:52:59,260 --> 00:53:04,510
Yeah. As you can see, like things were. Just get things done, you know?

484
00:53:04,510 --> 00:53:10,180
It's a mission, you know, nobody cared about, you know?

485
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:16,210
The. The publicity or credit.

486
00:53:16,330 --> 00:53:18,159
It's like we eyes on the prize.

487
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:25,930
We want you to be successful in that, hoping that it will be a successful vaccine and we'll be able to end this pandemic.

488
00:53:28,660 --> 00:53:35,700
So you mentioned that you might have more to say about the interactions with AstraZeneca, because they.

489
00:53:35,750 --> 00:53:38,620
Well, I mean, both we should say we covered this in other interviews,

490
00:53:38,620 --> 00:53:45,740
but so the the clinical Biomanufacturing facility made enough vaccine for the phase one of the clinical trials.

491
00:53:45,910 --> 00:53:51,010
Right. And then I'd made enough for the phase two.

492
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:58,330
Yeah. Around about that point, AstraZeneca came in to scale up for the rollout.

493
00:53:58,900 --> 00:54:07,500
Yes. Right. So. There was the other aspect of this operation, which was the distribution to clinical trial sites.

494
00:54:08,310 --> 00:54:12,720
Usually this is not within the scope of the clinical research facility.

495
00:54:13,170 --> 00:54:15,550
This is the scope of the clinical trials team.

496
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:27,900
But at the time, as I said, we have to wear different hats and we were like working as what, one body, you know, one team like.

497
00:54:30,250 --> 00:54:43,990
So our senior QB, Eleanor Perry, who makes sure that everything goes right and the material ones arrives to the right place at the right time.

498
00:54:45,350 --> 00:54:49,160
F when I mean, the right place is the clinical trial sites.

499
00:54:49,490 --> 00:55:03,170
Hmm. Uh, um, the rest of the team who were working on distribution the so I got heavily involved with them on reviewing our distribution processes.

500
00:55:03,170 --> 00:55:18,050
And we've worked very closely with AstraZeneca and with, uh, with the courier companies, and we have decided to work on contingency plans, so.

501
00:55:20,140 --> 00:55:25,390
You know, when you think about contingency plans, well, it's not one courier company.

502
00:55:25,390 --> 00:55:32,170
So at least two courier companies established this relationship to get the agreements in place,

503
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:37,190
get the cost in place, negotiate with all these details.

504
00:55:38,050 --> 00:55:44,120
A. And do their due diligence on the AP to do the work for you or not.

505
00:55:44,130 --> 00:55:50,790
And when you say that, it's like it's not something you can call someone or ask for a reference, it's it's a different thing.

506
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:58,980
So this is very new to everybody. So and so I've worked on reviewing all these processes with the team.

507
00:55:58,980 --> 00:56:03,990
It was very interesting when you think about the process with all this margin of error and things,

508
00:56:04,650 --> 00:56:13,110
yeah, it's all under control and actually it is not unsafe to do that under the normal circumstances.

509
00:56:13,110 --> 00:56:22,259
However, in our situation, any correction is very expensive, as I said, but time was one of the rarest currencies at that stage.

510
00:56:22,260 --> 00:56:26,339
And also now the vaccine is another real currency at the time.

511
00:56:26,340 --> 00:56:36,750
So you cannot just say, Ah, yeah, so let's destroy some some vials because there were not delivered in the right way,

512
00:56:37,470 --> 00:56:49,920
which shouldn't be the case anyways. So I've worked with with Eleanor and Helena, one of our team, and with the AstraZeneca guys,

513
00:56:50,310 --> 00:56:58,050
to run a simulator, to create a simulator as a mock-up and run it with the courier companies.

514
00:56:59,970 --> 00:57:10,920
And by the way, they did not know it is a simulator just to identify any issues and take action and take corrective actions.

515
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:25,110
And we identified a few issues. We will never think about it and was like whether we drive to Scotland or we use aeroplane and when we use aeroplane.

516
00:57:26,100 --> 00:57:29,360
I like to fly that the vaccine there.

517
00:57:30,590 --> 00:57:40,850
Are we able to track to have life life like real time tracking of the temperature of the vaccine when it is waiting in the

518
00:57:40,850 --> 00:57:49,219
airport or we only extract the data once they have the temperature drops delivered on site And then if there's an issue,

519
00:57:49,220 --> 00:57:52,880
we figured out that, yes, there is an excursion or there's a problem.

520
00:57:53,450 --> 00:58:01,759
So so as you can see, like that was one of the interesting concepts we had worked on and didn't really life.

521
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:12,830
Like, why would you run a simulator? You can say, Yeah, we try them for a few for one or two shipments, but in this case, no, that's not an option.

522
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:17,870
You have to get it right first time. Yeah. Yeah, that's. Yeah. You have no other options.

523
00:58:19,470 --> 00:58:23,530
Yeah. So, yeah, this is the other story. Ooh, ooh.

524
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:29,520
You know, there's so much, so much involved that. That it's a story that doesn't usually get told.

525
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:33,450
It's. It's almost like a magic wand was waved and all these things happened.

526
00:58:33,780 --> 00:58:42,960
Yeah, but yeah, it's very interesting to see the, the back story and I mean, presumably AstraZeneca do have operations people.

527
00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:47,450
People who speak your language. Yeah. Yeah.

528
00:58:47,620 --> 00:58:52,290
And. So when we speak the same language.

529
00:58:53,750 --> 00:58:58,990
We amplify the effect. And that was a very good relief for me.

530
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:08,520
However. Sometimes. So the good thing that Oxford and AstraZeneca, this relationship.

531
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:14,480
Which of course we are not involved with, with all that this arrangement.

532
00:59:14,490 --> 00:59:20,520
It's it's a that's a it's a different level within the university but it was like.

533
00:59:21,510 --> 00:59:29,850
There was common goal, common interest. And yes, so it's the conditions with a light and.

534
00:59:30,790 --> 00:59:39,340
We. It was nice that whatever we were suggesting and whatever we were proposing and sometimes imposing.

535
00:59:40,750 --> 00:59:46,990
They were very responsive. And yeah, I'm very grateful for their professionalism.

536
00:59:47,650 --> 00:59:54,460
They worked with us. But, uh, yeah, they, they showed throughout the process.

537
00:59:56,020 --> 00:59:58,720
And they were very collaborative.

538
00:59:59,170 --> 01:00:09,850
And yet even at the individual level, it was yeah, it was very nice, like the this sense of ownership of of this operation.

539
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:21,170
So yeah, they would. Part of everything I would say like from May until the end of of of this project.

540
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:30,570
And I mean, at what point were you able to relax a little bit?

541
01:00:33,210 --> 01:00:41,940
When when were you able to say, well, the CBS job is is done now and it's now out there in the in the world and others are taking care of it.

542
01:00:44,890 --> 01:00:52,750
So. I wouldn't say I wouldn't say I wasn't relaxed because it was very rewarding what we were doing.

543
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:56,360
So, you know, I was relaxed. Yes, I was.

544
01:00:56,450 --> 01:01:01,630
We were very busy. But I was relaxed because I was able to see that.

545
01:01:02,900 --> 01:01:07,010
There's something great happening here. You know, it's like a legacy.

546
01:01:07,790 --> 01:01:11,270
Like, are you able to contribute in something like that? That's amazing.

547
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:17,930
Ooh, yeah, that would be interesting and interesting story to tell your grandchildren, you know?

548
01:01:18,140 --> 01:01:25,459
Yes. You know. What was the atmosphere like at that key moments, like when the, you know,

549
01:01:25,460 --> 01:01:33,080
the first trial participant received an injection or even the the the initial rollout of the vaccine to the general population?

550
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:36,500
Was there a sense of euphoria in the.

551
01:01:36,540 --> 01:01:40,100
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And a little bit.

552
01:01:41,940 --> 01:01:50,159
Consciousness and a bit stress stressful, you know, because the next day there was some awkward news about this.

553
01:01:50,160 --> 01:01:54,300
The first participant. Oh, yes, Yes. Which was fake news?

554
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:58,530
Yep, yep, yep. And we were like, Oh. What's going on here?

555
01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:04,830
You know, someone on social media said that at least one of the participants had died when she had.

556
01:02:06,030 --> 01:02:09,330
Yeah. Yeah, There was like. Yeah. Myself. Was that feeling?

557
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:12,059
No eye contact. Almost. Don't make eye contact with any people.

558
01:02:12,060 --> 01:02:18,490
So they don't ask who know that you are working on this so they wouldn't ask you a question, you know.

559
01:02:18,750 --> 01:02:22,239
But yeah, there was. Priorities.

560
01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:25,780
You know, it's like the human brain is built on a survival mechanism.

561
01:02:25,810 --> 01:02:27,580
There was no time for distraction.

562
01:02:28,330 --> 01:02:37,540
So it was, as I said, maybe this feeling like you once you achieve a good, then it's becomes the the foundation of the next goal.

563
01:02:37,570 --> 01:02:41,500
It's not like something you just celebrate and relax, you know?

564
01:02:42,370 --> 01:02:47,500
So, yeah, you get to this goal. Yeah. Then you just forget about it.

565
01:02:47,770 --> 01:02:53,260
Let's go to the next call this go to the other one. So that's going back to your question.

566
01:02:53,300 --> 01:03:00,670
Well, when I was able to be due to to be relaxed at that time, we had.

567
01:03:02,260 --> 01:03:07,900
This planned action of. Working on.

568
01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:18,190
The documentation. Like in a way, we. We saw thought it out.

569
01:03:18,190 --> 01:03:21,880
And, you know, I'm trying to use the right words, you know.

570
01:03:22,690 --> 01:03:27,760
So. So everything would be correct and in place and yeah, on time.

571
01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:36,100
In terms of documentation. That was one of the important aspects.

572
01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:39,850
And maybe you already know that that's one of the very critical aspects of the GMP.

573
01:03:39,850 --> 01:03:51,900
Manufacturing is the documentation side of. So and all these documents were nearly finished, but not finished yet and not closed.

574
01:03:52,650 --> 01:03:55,320
We give them a name, we call them frogs.

575
01:03:57,240 --> 01:04:03,660
And we had we had to eat those those frogs, you know, like it's just eat this frog and then enjoy the rest of the meal.

576
01:04:06,030 --> 01:04:10,140
Yeah. So we had this operations committee meeting.

577
01:04:11,390 --> 01:04:15,260
And I used to cheer. Yes, I share those meetings.

578
01:04:15,740 --> 01:04:23,899
And Kath, of course, she's. She's the head of the facility, yet she was responsible for getting these things loose.

579
01:04:23,900 --> 01:04:28,390
Forks entered the cups were just pushing that.

580
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:32,460
Yeah. We have to finish this and that and. So.

581
01:04:33,460 --> 01:04:42,420
We discussed this, this challenge, and we came out with a plan that why we don't have a focussed approach towards that.

582
01:04:42,430 --> 01:04:45,430
And when I have a focussed approach, I always my brain works this way.

583
01:04:45,790 --> 01:04:49,780
Is it a process or a project? So if it has a deadline, then it's a project.

584
01:04:49,850 --> 01:04:54,640
Okay, easy answer. Anything. Everything is simple. So yes, that's going to be a project.

585
01:04:54,700 --> 01:04:58,410
Okay, good idea. So I named that project back on track.

586
01:04:58,450 --> 01:05:02,160
I gave it to name. That was.

587
01:05:03,570 --> 01:05:09,870
In May. I remember the first draft was published for this project around 14th of May.

588
01:05:10,290 --> 01:05:21,310
So as you can see, there's no time to relax. So we kicked off this project, reassigned everything, looked at timelines, simple things.

589
01:05:21,330 --> 01:05:25,740
How long would it take you? Who can help you with that? How long would it take you?

590
01:05:26,100 --> 01:05:29,540
But what is the duration for you to finish that? So people were confused.

591
01:05:29,550 --> 01:05:33,420
What do you mean? Like when you ask me how long would it take you? And then you ask about the duration.

592
01:05:33,690 --> 01:05:37,610
What do you mean? And this is one of the very important concepts, by the way.

593
01:05:37,620 --> 01:05:42,200
Like, Yeah, you work on that like 4 hours, but it might take you two weeks to finish it.

594
01:05:42,210 --> 01:05:45,870
Wipe the equipment if you need that equipment to work on.

595
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:50,010
Because of other stakeholders who need to review the documents.

596
01:05:51,070 --> 01:05:54,100
So I had to gather all that information. Use some.

597
01:05:56,380 --> 01:06:04,800
Professional software which people are not used to use these kinds of things in this similar context for project management.

598
01:06:04,810 --> 01:06:08,680
And so all the information had to meet with all the teams, team by team,

599
01:06:08,680 --> 01:06:14,950
ask every single individual all those very simple questions against their their activities.

600
01:06:15,190 --> 01:06:18,969
Just three or four questions they have to fill like how long and blah, blah, blah.

601
01:06:18,970 --> 01:06:23,420
All these things we can help. Drafted the first draft of the plan.

602
01:06:23,450 --> 01:06:34,790
And here here comes the the surprise. Looked at the timelines we needed like huge hours, like more than 2000 or 2400 hours to get this done.

603
01:06:36,350 --> 01:06:43,910
Okay. So we need to you know, we need to to recreate our team maybe three or four times to achieve the timelines.

604
01:06:44,150 --> 01:06:48,900
How would you do that? No way. So I, I discussed the details that we had.

605
01:06:48,950 --> 01:06:54,709
We started to dig into the details. Is this will this timeline, why we have this and we have that?

606
01:06:54,710 --> 01:06:59,840
And then here we identified some overlaps. We identified things which can be done by someone.

607
01:06:59,840 --> 01:07:05,990
But actually, if it is reassigned to somebody else who did it before can finish it in much faster time.

608
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:15,140
And yeah, the second draft was issued after less than a week with a time reduction, I believe like 40%.

609
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:28,190
And then people like, okay, so as you can see during this time I was lucky with all these things to, to build this trust and to, to have my team.

610
01:07:28,190 --> 01:07:31,270
Trust me, I had to say, yeah, this guy, he knows what he's doing here.

611
01:07:31,310 --> 01:07:34,549
Yes, he speaks a different language. But yeah, we can see that.

612
01:07:34,550 --> 01:07:39,140
We can, you know, numbers don't lie. So the.

613
01:07:41,700 --> 01:07:46,560
We this project was very intense, eating the frogs, critical frogs.

614
01:07:46,620 --> 01:07:50,609
Then we have important frogs, we have medium importance and we have low importance.

615
01:07:50,610 --> 01:07:55,050
Fox No important importance. Frogs Why they are frogs.

616
01:07:55,770 --> 01:08:02,969
So the the, the, the quality, the cups, the quality assurance team that were like, oh, really?

617
01:08:02,970 --> 01:08:06,710
Why? Why therefore is they're not frogs because they're not in the low importance.

618
01:08:07,950 --> 01:08:11,100
So they're just, you know, create distraction.

619
01:08:11,490 --> 01:08:17,490
And this is against the concept of, of adding value. So anything with not added value at this moment has to be eliminated.

620
01:08:17,940 --> 01:08:25,440
I made that clear. So people started to relax that the owners of those documents, like they had like 20 documents,

621
01:08:25,440 --> 01:08:29,850
now they have 15 documents to work on that was very rewarding.

622
01:08:30,210 --> 01:08:34,800
And yeah, so now this document, yeah, somebody else can help me with that.

623
01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:40,470
So as you can see, this was the second phase, the back on track, which was which ended in September.

624
01:08:40,620 --> 01:08:49,889
And we and that was a point we celebrated the end of this of, of this phase of the COVID vaccine.

625
01:08:49,890 --> 01:08:56,250
So the work and the documentation and yeah, and Kath made this executive decision.

626
01:08:56,260 --> 01:09:03,660
Okay. So we would have it as a project and Omar will take the lead in this project and I was like, okay, let's see how it goes.

627
01:09:04,080 --> 01:09:07,530
Yeah. Oh, very interesting.

628
01:09:07,950 --> 01:09:16,920
And what point did the facility decide it was time to stop working on COVID and move back to the work on the Ebola?

629
01:09:19,850 --> 01:09:24,130
End of 2020. Yeah, that was the end of 2020.

630
01:09:24,140 --> 01:09:33,240
It wasn't to. Our involvement with, as I said, with the distribution, with the clinical trials, took a lot of time, however.

631
01:09:34,440 --> 01:09:38,339
Uh, the manufacture itself was done.

632
01:09:38,340 --> 01:09:41,810
Was done? Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. So, again, back.

633
01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:52,870
Back on track. We can we can have we can make more useful products, too, for universal health foods.

634
01:09:54,600 --> 01:09:58,650
And is that is that what you're working on now?

635
01:09:58,950 --> 01:10:03,780
Are you continuing to oversee that, that process?

636
01:10:04,260 --> 01:10:09,180
Yeah. So so now I'm I oversee the process.

637
01:10:09,190 --> 01:10:13,040
I make sure that our operation is optimised.

638
01:10:13,050 --> 01:10:20,700
I manage the finances. Of course, we have no, uh, main other main challenges.

639
01:10:20,700 --> 01:10:27,750
Like, for example, we are expanding our manufacturing capacity 300%, 300% additional, 200%.

640
01:10:28,590 --> 01:10:33,419
And this is. It's not as simple as as that.

641
01:10:33,420 --> 01:10:41,999
You know, like to to make this capital project, to make the building, it's to follow all the guidelines and to recruit.

642
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:49,100
We have to recruit people. We have to decide when and where and who we need to recruit with to decide what is changing in our process.

643
01:10:49,110 --> 01:10:55,530
So. And yeah, unsurprisingly, I am the change control owner.

644
01:10:56,040 --> 01:11:02,460
So quality people who might listen to this quality assurance people will understand that for this expansion project.

645
01:11:02,470 --> 01:11:06,750
Uh, uh, I think, I think I need to take a step, step back.

646
01:11:06,750 --> 01:11:12,330
So the, the clinical biomanufacturing facility used to come under the agenda,

647
01:11:12,630 --> 01:11:16,170
but now it comes under the Pandemic Sciences Institute, as he said at the beginning.

648
01:11:16,530 --> 01:11:20,940
Yes. And so that is does that entail you moving to a new building?

649
01:11:21,200 --> 01:11:24,990
No. No. So but you are. But you are building more capacity.

650
01:11:25,740 --> 01:11:30,600
Yes. Yes. So we're building we are building a new building next to the existing building.

651
01:11:30,610 --> 01:11:34,560
Right. So both will be working together.

652
01:11:34,800 --> 01:11:38,040
Yeah. And will that enable you to work on more than one?

653
01:11:38,850 --> 01:11:41,850
I think that campaigns more than one campaign at a time.

654
01:11:41,860 --> 01:11:49,260
Yeah. Yeah. So at the moment, the moment, we can only work on one campaign because we have only one something called clean room suite.

655
01:11:49,410 --> 01:11:55,799
Yes. Well, so sometimes, you know, there is the contamination thing between projects.

656
01:11:55,800 --> 01:12:03,270
So we have to avoid, uh, contamination and we so we cannot do two campaigns at the same time.

657
01:12:03,270 --> 01:12:10,500
So but with the expansion, hopefully would be able to add two additional suites, so we'd be able to do three runs in part on it.

658
01:12:11,970 --> 01:12:15,120
Yeah. So we've got this. We can respond to three pandemics at the same time.

659
01:12:15,460 --> 01:12:24,420
Yes. Yes. So, you know, all the way through 2020, you were very much working in emergency mode.

660
01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:30,270
How how different is it now that you're not facing?

661
01:12:30,570 --> 01:12:35,160
Well, actually, maybe. Well, I mean, there have obviously there has been an Ebola epidemic recently,

662
01:12:36,360 --> 01:12:40,620
but you're not you're not in an emergency mode in quite the same way you were previously.

663
01:12:41,300 --> 01:12:49,740
So does does that make a difference or do you try to keep that emergency mindset just to make sure that everything is done as well as it can be?

664
01:12:49,980 --> 01:12:54,230
So it's not an emergency mindset. This is like an emergency balance.

665
01:12:54,240 --> 01:12:57,870
It is something where I can deploy when, when, whenever needed.

666
01:12:58,120 --> 01:13:02,820
The team was up to the challenge. Everybody was great leadership, the rest of the team.

667
01:13:03,060 --> 01:13:08,820
So we are confident that we can deploy that whenever needed and we are confident that we would be successful.

668
01:13:09,030 --> 01:13:13,470
But at the moment, one of the key challenges for me, which I'm working on how to do,

669
01:13:13,770 --> 01:13:17,910
how do we balance the long term for our long term value proposition?

670
01:13:18,420 --> 01:13:24,300
So as you can see, like we are now, we were in the news and under the spotlight.

671
01:13:24,760 --> 01:13:28,260
So this is a very strong differentiator.

672
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:35,040
Far more attention from funders, from researchers, from academic institutes,

673
01:13:35,310 --> 01:13:42,000
even from private companies who are working on their candidates products and drugs.

674
01:13:42,510 --> 01:13:51,420
So we. So this is this is one of the things I keep in mind that at the moment that long term, very positive proposition.

675
01:13:51,900 --> 01:13:54,440
How can I balance our simplicity and scale?

676
01:13:54,450 --> 01:14:05,820
You already know that we are we only make small scale for early, early stage clinical trials, products, vaccines with our growth strategy.

677
01:14:06,730 --> 01:14:18,270
And how would they balance that? You know, and I approve now of them in areas I focus on the finances.

678
01:14:18,730 --> 01:14:27,040
How we become more and more affordable through, you know, economies of scale.

679
01:14:28,150 --> 01:14:34,690
To be able to support the other researchers applications when they request funding.

680
01:14:35,080 --> 01:14:38,770
So big chunk of their funding goes to the GMP manufacturing.

681
01:14:38,770 --> 01:14:43,660
Who are us? Mm hmm. And it's very important we become.

682
01:14:45,200 --> 01:14:53,200
We make our offering. I wouldn't say cheaper like more cost effective for them.

683
01:14:53,500 --> 01:14:58,809
Mhm. So they will be able to get more funding and eventually we would be able to deliver

684
01:14:58,810 --> 01:15:04,300
more products to clinical trials hoping that those products would be successful.

685
01:15:04,690 --> 01:15:08,380
As you can see, it's the whole healthcare ecosystem here.

686
01:15:08,530 --> 01:15:12,340
Place it comes into place I think.

687
01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:18,970
Michael But I implement my course or I observe the, the restructuring, the team.

688
01:15:19,660 --> 01:15:27,700
We, we had a restructuring currently we are working on on expansion.

689
01:15:28,650 --> 01:15:35,440
I wouldn't call it another structuring, but you know, it's not a linear expansion of course, so it doesn't mean like you add.

690
01:15:36,810 --> 01:15:40,680
Addition 200% capacity. This means your team has to grow this way.

691
01:15:40,800 --> 01:15:50,520
Then where is the economy of skill? And he comes to the strategy, the strategic way, the strategic concepts, implementing strategy and operations.

692
01:15:50,520 --> 01:15:59,280
And that and finance is, of course, I just noticed in passing how have the number and can you put a figure on how the numbers

693
01:15:59,280 --> 01:16:07,380
of personnel have changed since you joined in January 19 to 2020 and today you projected.

694
01:16:08,430 --> 01:16:15,570
So at the moment, at that moment when I joined, I believe we were at the beginning of 20 something people.

695
01:16:16,050 --> 01:16:21,870
So yeah, another part of my I mentioned that already is to recruit new people and create new jobs.

696
01:16:22,320 --> 01:16:25,469
So we we were like 20 something, I believe we are like 23 now.

697
01:16:25,470 --> 01:16:28,470
We are 30 at the moment.

698
01:16:29,460 --> 01:16:35,100
Uh, 29. 30, yeah. And we are projected to grow further.

699
01:16:35,310 --> 01:16:45,690
So yeah, if anybody listening to this podcast, it will be come and join us if you're interested to call and talk to us.

700
01:16:45,690 --> 01:16:51,870
We are. We make great things. Yeah, one minute at a time.

701
01:16:51,870 --> 01:16:55,200
I think I'm just going to ask you my final question,

702
01:16:55,410 --> 01:17:03,030
which is whether your experience of working on this project has changed your attitude or your approach to your work,

703
01:17:03,030 --> 01:17:11,110
and is there anything you'd like to see change in the future? No, I.

704
01:17:12,330 --> 01:17:16,040
It just expanded my view to things.

705
01:17:16,050 --> 01:17:22,570
So I. I used to see the impact on local areas.

706
01:17:23,490 --> 01:17:30,209
Initially. Then I saw like local geographical areas or local populations.

707
01:17:30,210 --> 01:17:41,880
Then I started to see it regional, see expand it. But this specific this the COVID pandemic gave me the opportunity to see it at a global level.

708
01:17:41,970 --> 01:17:47,040
So now I believe I can see.

709
01:17:48,600 --> 01:17:53,470
Yeah, it was very helpful for me to think globally and whenever.

710
01:17:53,490 --> 01:17:58,470
Now I think about something I work on, something I always try to see the bigger picture.

711
01:18:00,510 --> 01:18:04,290
Yeah, maybe we have realised how vulnerable it is.

712
01:18:05,760 --> 01:18:11,340
Is the world we live in. And. And how small it is also.

713
01:18:12,720 --> 01:18:16,100
So. What?

714
01:18:17,730 --> 01:18:24,720
One of the things I've learned very well is we always have to learn how to maximise

715
01:18:25,020 --> 01:18:31,350
the advantages of collectivity without losing the benefit of individuality.

716
01:18:32,730 --> 01:18:39,570
So this is something like, you know, when you think about these things, you think of maybe,

717
01:18:39,570 --> 01:18:45,870
I don't know, like machine manufacturing plants and like machinery lines and, you know,

718
01:18:45,870 --> 01:18:51,749
armies mobilising and moving, but which is collectivity, that advantage of collectivity,

719
01:18:51,750 --> 01:19:00,270
but also the benefits of individuality when you need to be able to contribute and to decide.

720
01:19:01,390 --> 01:19:09,520
Or at least have a saying on the activities which will be directly affecting them or they will be directly working on.

721
01:19:10,530 --> 01:19:14,489
At the very early stage so they can say what they think about it.

722
01:19:14,490 --> 01:19:19,440
They can't work on it at all levels. This creates very significant value.

723
01:19:20,040 --> 01:19:25,259
And I always I've learned this very well during the course of it when I noticed,

724
01:19:25,260 --> 01:19:31,590
like people when they are in mission mode, they become super, super humans, super heroes.

725
01:19:33,550 --> 01:19:39,810
And this affected my. My perspective of the future in my career, personal perspective as well.