There we go. So could you start by saying your name and your current job title?
So I'm Edward O'Neill. I'm a postdoc researcher at the University of Oxford within the Department of Oncology.
That's great. Thanks very much. So, first of all, just tell me a little bit about yourself and starting from when you first got interested in science.
So just take me through the main stages in your career so far.
Okay. So I guess going backwards might be interesting way to do it.
So I came to Oxford in 2017 and then a couple of months later I had had a first baby.
But prior to that, I was doing my my Ph.D. at the University of Sydney in chemistry making MRI contrast agents.
And then prior to that, I've had I was working, making new glues,
so making new forms of construction adhesives and then doing undergraduate chemistry and regulating chemicals as well,
and on the side for the government.
And then prior to that, you know, high school, I enjoyed science in many ways that sort of a thing that sort of I fell into.
It's something that I've always enjoyed problem solving and trying to solve things.
And science has always been something that is just a nice way to express that.
And I've always enjoyed I always enjoy the prospect of maybe doing medicine,
but I actually ended up really enjoying science where you can sort of reflect and to think about what is there and more importantly,
what is not known. And that really excites me. So when I was doing my degree in science, I was quite conflicted because I wanted to do everything.
I settled on chemistry, but I was also actually doing immunology.
So a lot of it. So I was actually a bit of a crossroads, a bit over doing into immunology and virology and things, and I was quite fascinated by that.
In fact, I was quite interested in doing a project that was going to lead on to actually making vaccines actually.
So it was synthesising a new form of nanoparticle that would be allow you to put stuff on to make the vaccine,
which that group is still working on vaccines.
In fact, I think they're starting to need more next generation vaccines still actually for COVID,
But so that sort of seed of interest actually was quite interesting how it sort of
threaded through and up to the the vaccine trial where I got to have some interest.
I already had a bit of knowledge. I knew quite a bit about all this stuff.
I wasn't working in in vaccines or anything. I'm working on radiation, a form of radiation oncology using radionuclide therapy,
so using radioactive isotopes and that injected into people to then treat cancers from new and acquired at the time.
But now prostate cancer. So a quite a bit different to vaccines,
but it is a field that will have lasting implications on the rest of of oncology with the new oncology vaccines and things.
So it is a fascinating area with vaccines.
So we should just say that until you came to Oxford you were in Australia. Is that right?
So when you say yes, I should say the government, you mean the Australian Government's Easter egg.
So I'm not sure if it really comes across too much anymore. But my, my, my Australian accent.
So I lived in Australia for most of my life and I,
my wife and I are Australian from Sydney and then my undergraduate university, Sydney, that my Ph.D. there.
So then I came to the University of Oxford, had a bit of time in University Turin in Italy before coming here.
But otherwise, yeah, so I'm Australian and I am, yeah.
And so as you say, yes, you developed an interest in chemistry, but the way you followed your chemistry,
it's brought you back to biomedical science through the work on radioisotopes and, and using that to treat cancer.
Yes. So I've always been quite fascinated by sort of translational, you know, creating a product.
It's very similar to making glue. So you creating something, identifying the market and getting something that's used to people.
But there's something much more valuable, I guess, in terms of creating new medicine.
So hopefully getting something that you are creating in terms of an idea to be done in the clinic.
That's quite a fascinating area.
And so, you know, it's quite interesting being a part of a clinical trial to actually see what it's like on the receiving end,
if that works in many ways. Mm hmm. Well, we'll get we'll get to that.
We don't quite get to that yet. But so just to delve a little bit further into your current problem at the idea is.
Deliver these chemicals directly to tumours to target them at tumours so they deliver their radioactivity in a very focussed way.
Is that correct? Yes, very almost.
It's sort of there's a form of radiation that you deliver, seeds of radiation that will be directly to tumours.
That's called brachytherapy. But what mine is, is sort of an injected therapy that the chemical targets the type of receptors on the tumour.
So things that on surface, the tumour that then causes them to be taken out by the tumour.
It ionised or it radiates and damages the tumour from within and then causes the tumour hopefully to not grow anymore or to maybe regress and,
and be cleared. But it's a form of focussed, sort of a targeted form of radiation.
And my type of research in particular is trying to find ways to understand what is actually going on in the biology with that.
So actually it's quite straightforward. And there's new opportunities, therefore,
to combine it with other chemotherapies that because we don't really know what the biology is happening with it.
There might be new opportunities to exploit with additional drugs.
And then you have this lovely targeted therapy that hopefully uses the understanding with biology to then use
other drugs to then have an even greater effect than just the radiation alone or the chemotherapy alone.
Great. That sounds very good. So let's let's now arrive at the end of 2019.
Beginning of 2020. How can you remember where you were when you first heard that there was some kind of respiratory illness
spreading in China and how soon you realised it was going to be quite serious for the world at large?
Well. I don't think.
I mean, in many ways it's sort of very similar timing right now.
It's sort of after the Christmas period, everyone's sort of a haze and looking forward to the future.
And you're not really thinking of like what is what is going to affect us.
Like that is going to be there's always some new thing like Ebola and stuff, and then it goes away.
And I think there's a bit of a tolerance to that that we sort of feel as if these big things do.
They fade away, removed. And in many ways,
I feel as if a lot of the British press doesn't really like to talk about too much about these sort of things over
in China and Asia and stuff or how they and it was definitely seen how they compared themselves to other countries.
It was it didn't compare themselves to Southeast Asia countries or anything.
And so there was a bit of a narrow view.
It was only when I went to Italy and when it was Italy that was a big focus and there was a big sort of thing of,
Oh, you've got to make sure it's all contained and stuff there.
But that was actually of interest to me because I actually had a conference that was organised in Verona, which.
Geographically between the two epicentres of those northern Italy outbreaks.
And my my conference was going to be. Early April.
So it was going to be the first week of April and I was really looking forward to it.
I was looking forward to going to then and I was going to go to an earlier in in France,
and it was actually going to be like a holiday because at that point I didn't actually have much of a holiday for quite a while.
It was going to be like this lovely chance of sort of re refreshed, you know,
things going on our lives that we wanted to actually have a break and actually replenish ourselves and stuff we were actually hoping is a nice break.
So it was. Became dawning on us that this was not likely to be going ahead.
That even though there was no cases reported around that area at the time, as it seemed to of the inevitable.
And I remember people saying that I would just blow over will be fine. You know, you'll be able to go and stuff.
But obviously, I wasn't able to go that conference early.
Just got we got postponed again and again and again.
So only recently I went to it. And I was yeah, it was quite excited about the prospect because I was gonna be invited to give a big,
a big lecture for it, which was, as it turned out,
to be really quite a pivotal moment in my career recently in terms of being an opportunity to sort of make my sort of,
I guess, have my voice out there in my field.
So it was kind of, you know, it was quite a bit of a change of reference in terms of saying that this wasn't going to go ahead.
And I remember, you know, with the lockdown and things and not being able to go back to work, I remember just like I.
I better go to work, grab what I can, and and set myself up at home.
That included getting my big screen from work that I put into my my son's trailer.
I just looked it up into the air and and basically snuck out as much as I could.
All my stuff that I needed to work from home to your son's trailer, you mean?
You mean a trailer for a bicycle? No. Bicycle? Yeah. Because I didn't have a car. Yes.
So it was. It just fit, basically.
It was one of those huge ones, which is very convenient for working from home.
So. And they because the university essentially told everyone to go home a week ahead of the actual national lockdown.
I think it was, wasn't it? It was probably middle of March.
Yep. Yeah. And we work in animal research, so we had to sort of stop all studies.
It was quite a, you know, a change of reference. I mean, I kind of quite used to having to just be reacting with whatever.
Things out of your control in my research, like because I deal with I.
Radio isotopes etiquette sometimes get cancel shipments or there's less of a but some issue logistics.
I'm used to just having to be a bit flexible and just making do what we can.
So that was my mindset. Just making do what we can have no idea how long it was.
My wife was freaking out. That was going to be like, Oh, it's going to be for three weeks. How am I going to deal with three weeks?
It's just like she just reflecting like, Oh wow, we were just so naive.
Like was just he just did not have a frame of reference. They stuck around the house for so long.
But I remember it just that sort of. The feeling of like.
We don't know if we've had it or who has it and that uncertainty.
And the testing just was really nonexistent.
And so it was just kind of a blind thing where we feel as if we thought we had a lot of we knew of people who got sick with it.
And. Yeah. It was quite.
Yeah, I, I may have been slightly exposed to somebody.
May have, but I was only there briefly because I was running late. So maybe that was a fortunate thing.
I was writing lights that, that thing, but then that sort of spread through that person.
The person was a GP and so, you know, understandably was exposed to people who are unwell.
And so it was kind of. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, in many ways it was kind of. Nice how simple life was in that respect.
It was nice just to be this is what we're doing.
I mean that, like a lot of things have just how are we going to have enough milk, you know, just flattening out how much milk we have,
introducing powdered milk to our lives and things and and just the lack of availability of of online shopping.
But those early days was just. Yeah, I think it's hard to remember and reflect on it, but I think it was it was stressful.
But I what I remember with fondness was of the unity in a sense that everyone was in the
same boat together and was was there anything you could get on with work related stuff?
I mean, you say you brought your screen home, Did you have work you could do that only involved the computer?
Yes. So I, I realised very early on in that that I had a habit of basically always doing the now the experiment, another experiment as always.
And I never really invested enough time to actually reflect and reanalysed data.
And so it was a good opportunity to actually look at data and reframe things and many ways I probably without that opportunity,
wouldn't have actually discovered or some interesting findings having that sort of pause,
which in many ways I was trying to adopt and tried to maintain to.
And I think that's sort of a nice result of my working for scientists,
lab scientists to actually be a way removed allows you to actually reflect on what you already have in terms of your data,
to actually reflect on on things that more than just kind of the next thing, the next thing, next thing.
And because it's kind of at times you don't have to use your brain, you can just do things that are kind of muscle memory.
It's just nice to be sometimes it's in the movement, in the flow of things.
It's nice to do lab work, but it's actually important to sort of reflect on what you do.
Mm hmm. And so how did you come to hear about the vaccine trial?
Through a work email. I saw it and then, you know.
I don't know. How is it without diaries? I replied and signed up. It was something that I talked about with my wife,
and I think we sort of discussed it and I did the final sort of signing up for it that night after my son went to bed.
And. And what were the considerations that went through your mind when you were deciding to sign?
Yeah. So. Now that I can talk about it, I feel like I can be more honest about it.
Because at the time when you have those interviews afterwards, I mean, I started to realise how.
Important for politicians to not just be waffling on and tell the whole story.
You have to be very grabbing in terms of what is the critical piece of information and the critical communication.
So I can talk a bit more expanding about what my thought processes were.
But, you know, early interviews, I'll just talk about how, you know, trusting the vaccine and just trusting the evidence of the science, whatever.
But in terms of short sort of sound grabs, But in all honesty, I looked at the papers I designed.
I swear I am still I keep going.
My screen is somehow disappeared. But it is because I touched my I got one of these very sensitive mice and this is and it You carry on talking.
I'm sorry. Okay. That's okay. We're still recording. I will try and get back to you.
That's all right. It's moved. It's moved the image on to a different desktop.
I just have to find the desktop. Okay, but don't worry.
I am still here and you're still there. Okay, so we had a link to the email.
They just. I think they just wanted to get, I guess,
some volunteers quickly and using the networks of using the university sort of medical medical science division.
Maybe they do send it out to everybody. I then.
Look clicked on the websites, had a look at it and in in reference to that, they had all the papers beforehand.
And in many ways it kind of I mean.
It sounds like it's. This miracle of science is like this lucky sort of result or this like amazing result in things.
But it was just I mean, many things in science when you pare back is just it's many years of work, many years of boring work that lead to it.
And it was just the fortunate reality that they already had a functioning vaccine that was effective against murderers.
That was the thing that really struck me was that because they already have and I know from immunology, from my undergraduate and stuff,
is that most of their concern when it comes to a new vaccine will be the acute response,
the adjuvants, if it's too stimulating or not stimulating things.
But because they already have done that and they have basically had the whole scaffold, the what's the name, the Chadox1 Chadox1.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They've already tried it in people. I just got it.
Yeah. Well, yeah, they, they already tried it.
I think it's something like 200 people before me is the sort of regular scale that they would use to.
This is the normal scale Oxford University would be doing, and then that the whole thing will be spread out over a decade or something.
But this is all obviously squashed into a matter of a year, less than a year.
Not that they didn't do the science properly or anything.
It was just yeah, So I was very confident with the fact that there would have been an immediate sort of I would have dropped dead sort of thing.
But also. But you were sorry, excuse me.
Because of your background, you were able to absorb a lot of quite technical information in order to get that kind of confidence.
And I'm just wondering, I think that they did kind of skew towards approaching health care workers and people within the university to volunteer.
I wonder whether that was partly because they wanted to have a fairly well informed cohort.
It's very possible. I mean, they would want health care workers. They've all likely to be exposed, to be honest.
And I think it's quite a fascinating thing if you were to look at this study, the first cohort.
We were probably the worst cohort to say because they're the most conscientious people and
they're most likely to avoid high risk scenarios unless they had to do their work for us.
So there was probably the worst candidates because they were not less likely to
be infected and they probably had less infection than in subsequent cohorts.
So it's kind of an irony of that, that it's probably best for that in terms of being aware,
but they're not really good on the test subjects to actually test the efficacy of it.
But yeah, so I was definitely aware of. That it was, you know, a pretty reputable vaccine.
I can understand what its structure was in terms of the the design that is affecting me.
Just a tiny little bit on top of it, it's not very much that different.
So it seemed like fairly low risk because compared to what we were seeing with
with COVID was that it was just we had no idea who the susceptible people.
We had no idea who was high risk. We had no idea in terms of it.
What we did know is, is killing lots of people. And it was obviously horrible and bad.
And so it was kind of a as I you know, my sound bites, as I was saying before,
my sound bite was basically saying we we have what we know of COVID was really bad.
What we know of the vaccine is acceptable risk. But what we know already, the known knowns are really bad.
And so I always wanted to redirect people to the fear of actually COVID itself rather than the vaccine which.
There's nothing.
We have more control and more knowledge of rather than something which seems so out of control and even today, seemingly still out of control.
And so with its prevalence of all these variants. And so I was quite confident that it was fairly acceptable risk.
It also seemed that it would be the only option realistically in the world that we would get a vaccine at some point.
It was the safest way to have immunity.
It just seems like a sensible thing to do. I also wanted to, you know, protect my wife, protect my family.
The only reason why I couldn't sign my wife up was that she was breastfeeding.
And that was one of the criteria. You couldn't have that. Otherwise I would have definitely wanted her to sign up as well.
And she would The criteria. What were the criteria?
What made you eligible? It was it was they're looking for young people because they wanted to add their first phase just to have more confidence.
I don't think it was. I mean, I can't remember the criteria exactly, but it was something where, you know,
there's a certain age range and then they wanted to then, you know, you know, it's a very standard clinical trial.
So staff people not pregnant or breastfeeding, those kind of things. And that's why I excluded my wife.
But then for me, I didn't have any sort of pre-existing health conditions or anything.
It was quite boring. And so.
Then. Yeah, they they mentioned also that there's a risk of it being you generate a hypo response basically to the to the disease.
I mean it's kind of a bit of a concern because there was the big thing that everyone was having was it sort of feels like the vocabulary is now lost,
but it was the cytokine storm was the thing that was O'Leary was talking about
trying to make sense of why the body response was so huge against the the COVID.
And so I guess that was one of the main risks, is that if you did get COVID,
then with the vaccine actually making it worse and then seemingly did not happen in the mice, and then also and then to the the monkeys.
And I found only really later that they only got the word of that.
We go ahead of that those studies in the monkeys that morning, like just before like hours before they injected me.
So it's like there's no there was no wiggle room in terms of time.
There was never like, oh, we'll just come back, you know, have some coffee and come back later or something.
It was we'll come back tomorrow or something as it was definitely trying to shave off as much time as possible,
which is quite admirable and quite amazing. And talk me through having got to that.
Talk me through and showing up for that that first injection.
Because, I mean, you you were one of the first two, the only two who were done on that first day.
Yes. So when I. I got a I think I had like they had a screening thing where you went in beforehand.
They had people go in and I found it very strange because I wasn't wearing a mask or anything, so I didn't have access to most of the time.
But we went in the everyone that got screening and sort of health checks and
everything and and they wanted to make sure that you everyone was healthy beforehand.
And so I, you know, before if you went to the trial.
And so they tell you all these potential risks.
The main thing was that sort of, you know, over immune response, I think.
And so. Yeah.
So signing up for the trial.
Another thing I would add my mentioning is that at the stage there was no possibility of even getting tested unless you're in hospital.
I'm not a health care worker and I wouldn't have been tested.
So I almost another very slightly pragmatic response was like, well,
at least I'll be tested and at least they'll care about me in terms of be keep an eye on me and for health reasons.
So they have an interest in actually keep an eye on me.
So it's almost this pragmatic sort of thing of like, well, the situation in the UK is that, well, if I'm in the trial,
at least they'll test me and is and if you have a 50% chance of being vaccinated against the the disease.
Yeah that was, seemed like a good sort of bet.
But even just the testing bit, I thought it was attractive.
Just so honestly I thought that was because I was, it was just such like a panic in terms of not being able to know if you were infected or not.
And just the fear of then of infecting someone else and feeling a bit responsible for that.
I think I've always felt that responsibility.
So when I when before I went to the actual day, so there was that screening and then there was I received a phone call from the.
The coordinator, so the clinical trial coordinator.
And he asked me, like, as you said, they how they want to health care.
So you asked me and they can see that I've got some you know,
I'm a postdoc and I've got some experience and know how to communicate all knowledge of what what the trial is about.
And they just wanted to check that out, feel comfortable, because they might be.
He just said it's almost in positive.
There might be some media, especially where there might be some media attention and they might ask you some questions.
And in my mind, I'm framing it as being when he's calling me, I'm like thinking they're going to have like it's going to be just like a passing shot.
There's like 20 people there or something, and I'll just be one of those people and just,
just the by they might ask me a question saying, How are you feeling?
I'm like, I'm okay or something. I didn't really actually have much of a concept and they didn't really tell me at all.
They didn't tell me at that stage I'll be one of the first two. And so when I did turn up that day, I realised, Let's just get the date again.
It's that it must be embedded in your memory because it's not complete. Honestly, I don't actually remember.
It was something like the 23rd of April, but I'm not absolutely sure this was around then this around then.
It was one of those days and whichever day it was.
And so I remember when I was like, sign out for us realising. Because everyone's looking at the news and trying to be aware of it.
And there's a lot of, you know, awareness of the trial and stuff.
And I, I remember I can't remember exactly what point it was either.
Just before I arrived, I realised that I was like. I might have just look at the clinical trial protocol because they have to publish
the protocol after every update to the protocol that if you're participating,
they keep giving you updates, just very small, minor things.
They highlight them and things that it was always going to be an updated little bit here and there.
But I had a look at it and it it said that there would be two participants.
And then they will then do the subsequent, I think, six or something after a couple of days.
And so I realised that if I was going to be potentially the first that day as he called off and told me,
I then dawn on me going, Oh, I actually might be one of the first two.
So nobody actually told me exactly I'll be the first two, but except there was the obviously the particle.
But they didn't actually specify that was going to be the case.
And so then when I arrived and I'm the only one in the waiting room just sitting there.
Just very curious about it.
And and you know something that they're probably now so bored about doing and stuff in terms of having people churn for the,
the participants and stuff. I was yeah. The only one and it was very.
Yeah. Realisation that I might be. Yeah, the first or whichever.
And where was the location? The location was just down the road from my work, actually.
So. My. It was just at.
Wow. It's a pretty nothing earth looking building at the on the south side, on the outskirts of the Churchill Hospital.
The Centre for Clinical Vaccinology and Tropical Medicine. Yeah, that one.
Most of the buildings, the General Hospital wing. My, my, my own included.
Don't. They all look like low rise houses and things. They don't look like anything special.
And so I get there and, you know, they check be on the list and stuff.
And I see that there's only two names. There's a security guard because they had obviously had security and stuff.
I think they also had security just to make sure there was no other cameras except for the BBC because they had the exclusive rights.
Turns out. And they. Yeah.
So I waited and then I went in and because I've never actually because we never myself in
the lines and never actually crossed paths at all the other participant in the first two.
But and in fact I do think we've actually never seen each other in real life.
We've only just have a we've know we've just sort of passed with, yeah,
we were never in the same place at the same time, maybe different rooms or something, but never actually in person.
And yeah, it came down to me and I, my.
I message my brother to saying, Oh, by the way, I think I might be the first.
And because he's he's living is and he was at the time and now Australian living in London.
And I think he made a comment of saying like, if Perrier bottles there, just make sure to point that your Australian leg pointed out or something.
So if I had to play it fascinating when I reflect back on it that they chose to.
One, a German and an Australian as their first participants.
For something that could be quite jingoistic. A very home-grown British sort of vaccine.
I don't know if that was a deliberate choice or not, but they wanted to have it because I was vibing from subsequent interviews.
Everyone, one that was in the the Corona cast of the BBC, they was saying that it was that of it's bigger than Brexit.
And I think that sort of was trying to frame it as being a global problem and a global thing.
And I think that's the definitely the sort of framework at least they were portraying is that this isn't a jingoistic British thing,
but rather as a global problem and global solution.
And you can see that with the COVAX approach and then at cost.
That was an Andy Pollard quote, wasn't it bigger than Brexit thing?
Yeah, I'm just let's just listen to it this morning. So yes. Yeah.
I hope that. Yeah, that was it. Yeah. So that was it.
So I thought that was Yeah. Anyway so I was waiting in the waiting room then I got in and then there's Fergus Walsh and the cameraman and they.
I got in and and then they said, What's going to happen?
Then I'm going to have an injection and they're going to ask me some questions straight afterwards.
So it's quite a weird experience knowing that I would be having an injection on camera and then immediately had a
boom microphone trickling in my face straight afterwards to say my word as if it's like a Neil Armstrong situation,
just like, what is this? What is this word that I was saying? What are these statements afterwards?
I do remember that because we weren't actually the first to get a COVID vaccine in the world.
I remember that the it was a no no. The as the Madonna one was first in the US, it's like day is as long as a week before it wasn't very long.
So I remember the images and stuff and I remember like they're going to have an image and they're going to use the image I better have.
I'm going to have a cheerful shirt. So that's the sort of thought I had before I came.
And I'll make sure I have a nice, cheerful black shirt. And so that's a short sleeved shirt.
So I didn't, you know, just roll it up and everything.
Those are the sort of weird thoughts you have on the way to something is actually quite, quite a big event.
And. Yep. And, you know, they asked me questions. It's a bit of a blur about it, but I remember that.
There's something I wanted to actually convey.
Was that just because I'm sort of, you know, was aware of the situation and the apprehension about things.
So I myself as a Christian, I was quite conscious of the fact that what this action was was actually in many ways a step of faith.
And so I mentioned that as a way of saying, you know.
I've got faith in the scientists and things and mentioning that this is kind of a because I kind of.
Sort of. You sort of as a faith response would be something that you are know is to be true and then you do it.
But it's not something you know for certain, Like it's not something, you know, for certain, just like the vaccine,
you know, for certain that was to be the case that will be working or that to be safe and things.
But you sort of walk in faith. You go, that's an active thing of going using intellect, knowing that something that you believed to be true.
And then and I thought that would be a you know, I had to set my mind thinking that, you know,
maybe that might sort of cut against some sort of apprehension that people might be having, you know, that it's okay to sort of I don't know,
I it was just something that I had in my mind at least, because there can be I you know,
this sort of nervousness of the vaccine and a lot of like, you know, in faith groups and things about this.
But I saw it as being, you know, how I express some of my my faith, which I science of things is that that's how I would be approaching it,
is that it's an intellectual trust and also trust in the work of all the scientists, all the boring work that done beforehand to get to this point.
And so, yeah, it's a there is emotion when it comes to the vaccine is still is not a simple
there's always complicated motivations based on getting it and stuff but I was
wanting to sort of see it as being like you sort of have to make a decision your
mind that this is a good decision and go for it because there are versions of it.
You know, I remember when they just injected the vaccine in me, I was just thinking, that's a big syringe, just a lot of liquid.
Those are the kind of thoughts ago in your mind. And who else was present in the room apart from the BBC team at US Weather?
Yeah, but but the the kind of leaders of the vaccine team, people like that, when they went there, they were no, they weren't there.
I sense that they were in the corridor. I sense that they were in the corridor and they maybe they I don't know if was fully blinded or not.
I don't know to them. I don't know the situation of how much they knew if was double blinded or not.
But they I sense that they were aware, but not being in the room.
Because, you know, they might if who knows what the effect was.
And so, yeah, because of any I mean, anyone getting the vaccine,
you sort of have to hang around for a little bit because I'm the first to have to hang around for a bit longer.
And then how long how long roughly, were you there? I think I was at least there for about half an hour or something afterwards.
Like, I remember an hour or something. But I took bloods either before or after was a summary of.
Exactly. And then, you know, days later you get a lot of bloods and so much so many little tubes of blood taken out over the time and.
Yeah. So that's what. That's what kind of happened.
And then as I was leaving. How often did you.
Oh, sorry. Carry on as you were leaving yet? As I was leaving, I sort of a strange thing to the leaving.
The building is sort of just like heading home, going.
Something big happened and this feels strange that this feels like there the weight of the world on my shoulder, that kind of thing.
And then I also recognise that there was a there was an ambulance just parked right outside and only later I
was just like thinking about as I was cycling home discussing anything else they have just in case for us,
like it was just like in our private and it was just in case of a situation.
They probably had to have some sort of protocol thing just in case they had an electric shock or quiver or whatever.
But it was just like, is it dawned on me. I was going, Oh, that's potentially a risk.
Which, you know, I get I get a call the other day like the of the government was the day after or something.
But there was they called me up saying, by the way you might be aware of I'm I'll sure you are that there is a.
A hoax that one of the participants has died.
I assure you that it hasn't. Yes. As they called me out about that.
But before I was going to ask whether you'd actually seen the report that she died.
Well, the first I the first I heard was from the the study, which was, you know, props to them at times of being able to pre-empt that.
I then. I then before I even I think it was a day or something.
No. I mean, it was the next day or something. I can't remember exactly,
because it's a little bit of a blur because I did a whole bunch of a flurry of media interviews because obviously they had the Fergus Walsh,
the BBC footage that went out. Then they, a reporter, Australian reporter based in London, recognised the accent,
then went in to hunt me down to sort of have an interview, and then I had an interview on Skype with him.
And then that footage then seemingly got sort of sold on to a whole bunch of other shows in Australia in particular.
And so then people in Australia then knew about me and that was a bit of a weird, surreal experience having all that.
But we had to sort of, you know, supposedly be all these shows without actually seeing, you know,
being on the show because then they'll have like fake fake people and ask you questions, the same question that everybody would have.
And then I, I found the whole experience sort of slightly strained because I felt quite removed from it because I,
I didn't have a TV licence at the time. I still don't have a TV.
So actually I never actually saw the footage or anything like that, except for just people literally,
you know, videotaping on their phone or something or a few YouTube clips or something.
But it was interesting then to see how whatever stop footage from the BBC got, then trends formed and sort of whatever,
they had their own cut through all the know India and everywhere and how much that spread for the world.
It's kind of a nice sort of opportunity to have this sort of a sense of hope of the, you know,
the potential end to the coronavirus or some sort of part of a way of approaching it.
So it's kind of a it was a nice to have that sort of like, you know, after some communism really only a few months or whatever.
But to actually have that as an option, that this this might be a way out.
And I think one thing that sort of dawned on me, particularly when I had these interviews, is that.
It's something that a lot of the reporters, they kind of were trying to angling for.
They kind of, you know, I'm I'm not the scientist of the trial.
I'm not the person.
Some one reporter in Australia kept on criticising the vaccine and getting me to defend it, and it was not really appropriate for my vaccine.
But I sort of feel like I hesitated. It was very strange.
I didn't like that guy is very critical, strangles its own bubble away from it all at the same time.
But they. They kind of because I was sort of the human interest story of it, they kind of want to push you in to be like some sort of hero.
And I remember I really was sort of like pondering about it and sort of contemplating on it.
Realising that. Especially, I saw at least one other person who participated early participant nodules or someone else giving interviews and stuff,
and that what they would emphasise is, yeah, there's a real risk.
They told us that if there's a, you know, the, you know, the vaccine, if you get it,
there's a whole risk that if I get it and then I get the coded, it'll be make it even worse and stuff and really building it up.
And also talking about the symptoms of the vaccine itself.
And I just thought to be really is really inappropriate to talk about that because it's an open trial.
I don't want to I mean, I'm blinded. I don't want to say what it what I have, etc.
And I don't know. And I also realise the most important thing is that if you make it look like a heroic thing, it makes it immediately scary.
This. You can't be heroic without being something scary when in reality.
I just wanted to emphasise. It's a should be a pretty boring thing, just like we have with vaccines, our normal flu shots or whatever.
It's a fairly boring occurrence like it should be. It shouldn't be any scary thing at all.
And I was trying to be very emphasising that just to be like, no, you know, not to be like false community.
I saw the danger of that.
It's very tempting to go to your own haunt, but it's actually dangerous and actually counterproductive to actually think about.
The vaccine is a dangerous thing to be sort of to be suck up and do it.
And I remember that earlier on, people were very worried about it.
And and to be honest, I had less knowledge about the vaccine than than anyone at the time, obviously, because of the first one.
But I'm you know, I'm I'm very I you know, I'm more impressed by your like, you know, a lot of friends in Australia who,
you know about my age who as a result of Australia by going out,
they courage all order their vaccine orders and stuff had a lot of AstraZeneca, but not any of the devices and things.
And so young people weren't going to be the end of the list because a whole bunch of older people were actually hesitant.
And they're actually a risk really, but they were very hesitant.
And so then. It was sort of delaying the vaccine rollout.
But a lot of young people, the government was like, well, talk to your GP if you're young and then you can make the decision yourself.
And so a lot of my friends did that and they knew all the risks to manage risks,
but they did it because they wanted to protect their, you know, their their wife who was pregnant.
They wanted to do all these things. And they, you know, in many ways, I know that they were influenced by the fact that I did it.
They sort of had that sort of connection where they knew that because I went ahead and did it,
that there's something to it or something or, you know, that that concept of it was okay.
And I was quite amazed by this. They the sheer sort of willingness, a lot of Australians to do that,
even when they had very low numbers of COVID was sort of at the point where they were like, oh, is it they might,
we might get away with it not having any COVID and therefore we shouldn't give vaccines because there's that tiny risk,
the assumption that there wasn't any COVID as if it was not going to be inevitable anyway.
So. I think. Yeah.
So I that was my sort of guiding philosophy in my mind is to try to not make it a scary
thing to point towards the very boring work of science in terms of the careful work.
Just everything is just sped up, given the resources.
And it's quite an exciting sort of opportunity to see sort of science in action when you given the resources,
a huge amount of resources and also a really cool to see other academics,
teams working together when at times in academia we're sort of the colleagues
that pseudo competitors with your fellow colleagues and just to see that like,
you know, the advancement of like of something which honestly was quite peripheral and at times the vaccine sort of group,
the gender and stuff, I was always aware of it, but in many ways it was kind of a bit of a.
It was kind of a bit of a peripheral aspect of like research at university.
Wasn't that central? It was not that sort of valued. And in fact,
those all those people who are now with permanent jobs and professorships and and things would have been just keep having to fight for their own jobs.
You know, every few years of getting their own fellowships and things,
they would have had to keep fighting for and survival and justification, just like all of us.
But, I mean, they were doing great work, but a lot of it was on vaccines that would be deployed in developing countries rather than in the West.
Things like solar and rabies and stuff that a lot of companies wouldn't have thought to bother paying for the governments or even,
you know, something that effectively aid work effectively. So that is really important.
In fact, like the vaccine for malaria might have way more impact than the COVID vaccine, but that doesn't get as much airtime.
But that's actually a huge advancement. So it's it's not that they haven't been doing great work.
It's just all of a sudden people pay attention to it and they're given the resources and they're able to give the time to focus on it.
And it just so I mean, it wasn't your it wasn't your field,
but it sounds to me as you as though you got very interested in the whole business of vaccine development deployment trials.
As a result of your personal experience of having been involved, I was quite fascinating.
I mean, like the Beynon part of that, one of the first to be participants.
You got a bit of a firsthand look at how the trial was really they were doing it as fast as they can,
which means also they didn't have the electronic sort of checking system online sorted.
We had been given paper just to write it down ourselves and stuff.
We were just everything was kind of always, I wouldn't say last minute, but like pushing to the last minute.
It was kind of it was everything was, you know, not not done wrong or anything, but it just going as fast as they possibly can.
And so it was it was, yeah. Fascinating to see how something were where, you know, honestly,
it probably wasn't in their skill set that they were having to rapidly learn how to deal with a massive multinational vaccine rollout.
But, you know, they are capable researchers that are able to adapt and change and take the moment.
I'm sure it would have just been a case of just a slight adrenaline.
Just keep them going. You just you just do this and you just keep doing it.
I, I don't know at what point they actually sort of realised they could actually
rest and they certainly weren't doing too many sort of interviews and stuff.
They probably rejected quite a few because they had to just get on with it. There's so much stuff to do.
And if anything, I kind of felt like I was done jump to the deep end when it comes to this, all this media engagement and stuff.
I wasn't given any training or any sort of instruction. I think I was I was I was asked, are you okay with with some media around their first call,
then the subsequent fake death saying that, oh, if you have any issues, just let us know.
If you're finding it a bit overwhelming, just don't don't respond to it.
But when you're ready to contact with people contacting you directly or where you getting.
What was the university press team feeding reporters to you?
I've never talked to the press team. I know it was all just directly to me.
In fact, they sometimes they found my my university websites, say, via my university website and LinkedIn.
I didn't I wasn't on Twitter at the time, but I realised I probably should be on Twitter.
It's like I just some of those things I just never really was all that involved with.
But I sign up for Twitter because I thought, Hey, maybe I might get some interest in my own research or something.
You know, maybe I'll use that as a way for people to find me.
And so then they get calls, direct messages from all these allies, reporters around the world wanting to have interviews.
And they one person even contacted my boss trying to find me.
And he had found that very befuddling. And so I yeah, I did sort of, you know, Skype sort of interviews or like sometimes live interviews.
I kept getting called up even months later because I was just up on the list of somebody that is related to COVID vaccine.
But I remember like later on, many months later, I was just I, I wasn't keeping up to date with all that.
I didn't feel like I was an authority on this.
Like, I feel like a lot of people sort of jumped on the bandwagon of being somehow like a science authority on it.
And I, I realised early on that I just, you know, I'm not an epidemiologist, I'm not qualified to sort of comment on many things.
I can comment on the the personal aspect of a fear or apprehension of an unknown vaccine.
That's the that was my skill set, that was my expertise. I think that sort of service I had,
which I think at the time was important to not have this sort of growing of fear of the unknown vaccine to start at least early on,
to have that sort of a cheerful first experience of first hand experience,
have positive experiences with it to be, you know, reminding people that COVID sucks and that we should be,
you know, the vaccine is a perfectly sensible and reasonable thing to do and and not should be that scary.
And but I think it was a quite a stressful time, all that.
I mean, I was I was already struggling with trying to work from home and having that I just couldn't focus on any work for weeks.
And my wife also found that really stressful. She found that really hard that I she felt like I should have just taken time off earlier on anyway,
just to be sort of taking time out to help her with family and my wife and my son and, well,
just to be able to sort of coach emotionally because we were already not coping before the vaccine happened, it was kind of like a as I said before,
we were hoping for a holiday in Italy, you know, in France and having this lovely time and and like it, you know, that was where we were at.
We were sort of now just jumped into survival mode. And I think she was yes, she was quite hurt by all these.
Like I would drop things to do this, these injuries and things.
But in many ways, I was doing these in a way sort of reflect on it afterwards.
We were doing that.
You know, there was an aspect of trying to do good in the world and things weren't going well, but also emotionally I was trying to make sense of it.
It's such a weird thing to be just plunged into celebrity.
I would say celebrity, but like in a known status where people will see you on the BBC each night,
just in that showreel and stuff, this as a grab or whatever, because of the news or whatever.
And so you would just like awareness. And I think I just was, you know,
trying to process it because it's something that you would normally if you something really weird happen to you while you're,
you know, you're in life. Normally you would have a bit of a joke with all your colleagues and try to humanise and sort of relate to everybody.
And you just you'd find the humour in the weirdness of it sort of, or normalise it and humanise it.
But because everyone was stuck at home and separated from everybody, it was very bizarre.
Like I was, I was talking in person with people like reporters and other people and, and I that was my way of relating to the situation.
But it was completely bizarre and I still was trying to make sense of it, this being plunged into it.
But also how, you know, you could actually win When push comes to shove,
being able to actually communicates win on the spot, the critical, the important things.
And that's kind of the thing that you train. You're taught in science to always go back to the critical.
What is the most important is your body. When you're answering questions in seminars and stuff you could waffle on for ages.
But what is the critical thing? The critical answer You don't want to you want to give what is the important answers to things that is most helpful.
And I think it may be, yeah, I really realise the importance of clear communication of science.
That's yeah, you can actually have.
It. Yeah.
I had the experience of enjoying the sort of the fruits of effectively years and years of work beforehand to sort of communicate the brilliance of,
of of all those researchers before me. And so, yeah, it was a privilege to be able to talk about it all.
It was quite interesting to see that and speak to the media, to talk to, you know, there's the documentary,
which I don't think I've actually seen yet, so I don't have a licence of the vaccine by Fergus Walsh.
But yes, it was it was a good way to sort of process something that happened.
That was a very bizarre, sort of a slightly bizarre experience.
So because I think everyone had a different lockdown experience,
everyone had a different COVID experience, and I had a very strange one, slightly getting very.
How how long did the follow up go on? How long were you having to go back and get blood samples?
It's a bit of a blur, but it's something like, you know, it would be the first you'd be like 48 hours in a week, then two weeks than a month.
Then it would be like three months. There'll be six months, then it'll be a year.
Then they would, then they signed us up to get another vaccine and.
And I remember progressively that as the trial went on, my weirdness became less and less like I was just another person or just another participant.
It was only when I got the second vaccine which would turn out to be my first because I was actually a placebo originally,
was that I was able to chat with one of them.
So it was a very nice that just that was a very weird experience.
So yes, it was. Yeah, it is that sort of certainty.
When I first actually got the vaccine that I knew I was going to get the actual vaccine, or at least the second.
Just knowing for certain I was going to get something. I felt like it. So let's just just clarify that.
So you didn't obviously, when you got the vaccine, you didn't know whether you'd got the vaccine or that it's not actually a placebo, is it?
It's a mandate meningitis vaccine. So it's a it is a real vaccine that might make your arm.
So it did make my arm so but not that bad yet. But but not the COVID vaccine.
But as far as I recall, when the vaccines were finally licensed in end of December.
The participants were all asked.
If they I mean, if they were eligible, I suppose if you were that young, you wouldn't have been eligible in the first tranche of a vaccination.
Is that correct? I mean, my question is really when when was it unblinded?
When did you discover that you actually had the meningitis vaccine and not the COVID vaccine?
It was unblinded. Not straight after I got the second, which is actually the first.
So. So you were given another vaccination before you even knew what the first one had been?
Yeah. And with that also, did you know that was a vaccine when you got it?
I knew it was the vaccine when I got it. Okay. Right. And this was around the time when you made it.
There was suspicions of the clotting and everything was potentially happening.
But the rollout had begun by that time as well. Presumably, it before it started to.
And I, I remember just like it was it was it wasn't that long after I got it that my wife actually got it because we were sort of pushing it.
I remember it was just the extra rollout because my wife wasn't she was invulnerable this,
but it was a very weird thing where she wasn't on this sort of technical proper NHS list.
And so she wasn't on the normal rollout, the NHS. So he has a sort of you sort of had to hunt for the vaccine.
And so we found that there was a the mosques in Oxford had a whole bunch of drop in centres and when she went there it was like.
No one was there and she was running a bit late and she was the first one there.
It was really depressing how much. There was just not much knowledge of where these vaccines opportunities are.
But yeah, so it was it was kind of a sense of relief when my wife got it more so than mine.
I got it much more. And yeah, in fact, she's got more vaccines than made because she's got she got the Pfizer and the Bivalent I.
I. According to my NHS record, it's all very confusing.
My when in terms of like my NHS record had, I only got two second vaccines, I never got a first technically because I was they blinded.
It is a weird how it was entered.
I have two two and then I had my Pfizer at kind of I say that kind of because I kind of lost my record, which is actually kind of a bit funny.
Actually. I got a letter in the mail saying that, Why haven't you gotten a vaccine yet?
Because what happened is that my NHS number was stolen, less taken by someone else and something that supposedly never happens.
That actually does happen. And then the fight to get that back.
And then that means that the person who probably has never got the vaccine,
now it looks like that or the first, I just couldn't have all my vaccine recalls.
So I don't actually have a vaccine record anymore. I could I could pretend that I don't and then get another three.
Which, you know, health records are a funny thing.
It's just the irony of this. All these things happening, these these things that are very special, weird things happening to me.
So yeah, so that's.
So, yes, I got this sort of the second vaccine and then later on found out that I actually have a C based and I was invited to go back,
I don't know what it was two or three months later to get sick. The third place, the second vaccine.
So, yes, that was the and then I was monitored for about a year or two on a long term study.
So every so often go back and I'm I'm now technically off everything.
So I've I've done this sort of long term monitoring of everything.
And so I'm no longer part of the trial anymore, which I just found a bit weird when I was just finally over, just a bit of a weird sort of chapter.
My life was finished and then that's gone and.
You know, it's just it's just is strange to imagine something that didn't happen wasn't around or available to anyone at one point,
but now it's become so part of life and so forgotten.
Also, the impact and the fear of it. The beginning was the the vaccine is just all dwindled away.
And, you know, I, I still am amazed that like the gamble that it actually did work, it did pay off.
I mean, it could have easily not have worked at all.
And just amazed that like the the hilarity of what a real reflection of science is and the real story, they couldn't hide it that.
The confusion of the dosing.
You know, the fact that they thought it was twice as concentrated. So they get diluted in half accidentally that it wasn't actually solid in half.
And then they thought that the half was actually better. But then it turned out is the delay because of the confusion.
That was actually the good thing. I just found that's just fascinating and just such an honest reflection of the science,
because normally whenever you do scientific papers or anything, you publish things you can never hide.
You always hide everything.
You always hide the truth in terms of what the order of all the sequences, the figures and everything and the story and stuff.
But you couldn't hide this. You can't hide such a big public event and public sort of study that they had to
be honest so you could actually trust them because they didn't hide anything.
They couldn't hide anything. It's just it's a very they were very honest and transparent about the whole process.
And I think it's such a nice reflection of making use of in inverted discoveries
that I think is that sort of has been a fantastic opportunity to learn
more about the immune system and learn more about vaccines that you would never
be able to do in any sort of trial except for that accident of that delay.
Anyway. We may have still gone down that path of always doing it one month apart, etc.
Instead of the the three months sort of sort of boost up, which is just a fascinating sort of by-products and long term by-products of that.
And as it's it's quite interesting to find out about the now and knowing more about the the clotting, about the reasons behind that,
it's just a you would never be able to see that in the trial because it's such a fluke
of an event where your immune system responds to the structure of the virus itself.
And just a coincidence of it's just you wouldn't be able to do it.
So I still think that I still believe what they did was correct, that there was nothing that they could have done to prevent that.
And I still think it's a good vaccine, and I think it's a very, very low risk.
I mean, it's measurable risk, but it's very it's a very low, isn't it, in terms and compared with the number of people who've had the vaccine?
Absolutely. Yeah, I absolutely agree. And the amount of clotting you get from just COVID itself is much, much greater.
And it was only in Australia which was able to achieve zero COVID at the time.
They were actually afraid of the vaccine because it was a much greater risk than nothing.
But without realising that, you know, trying to impress upon family and friends in Australia that like, you know, the way COVID rolls and stuff.
You get the vaccine, it doesn't actually kick in for like three weeks at least.
You don't know what the whole world can change in three weeks as we found out. These things can happen so quickly, sort of.
It's for these vaccines. You sort of have to always think ahead in that respect.
Always sort of anticipating that kind of how the world is going to change.
You can't know. So.
Yeah, it was it was a strange privilege to sort of see sort of such a momentous sort of translation of
science and this huge impact on the world for something which in many ways is sort of as scientists,
you know, plugging away in the dark and feeling it.
Relatively obscurity might be famous in your field, but relatively obscure and just sort of be plucked into the spotlight.
These these researchers where they're like in many ways, you know, it could have just been any other researcher.
It could have been so many other people. That's the brilliant thing about places like Oxford.
There's so many brilliant people not given the sort of the limelight. If we had all this huge attention, they would be also seen to be great.
It's not to diminish them. It's actually to elevate all the other researchers affected.
Their whole career has been out of the spotlight and then all of a sudden having to navigate
that sort of that realm of having to be some sort of the having to navigate politics of like,
you know, you have to be careful of how they might be seen to be promoting certain aspects,
especially when it gets political with lockdowns, with other things, and that how that became politicised and then having to be very careful about it,
it's like and then having to also not have to jeopardise their own research program or their own vaccine.
And it's hard. It's like something that you don't really you don't really experience about navigating as a scientist but realising that.
You know. Yeah, it's a it's a strange opportunity and I think it's amazing that they've what they've been able to do with it.
But I think so far, I mean, you've used the word strange and weird a lot.
Knowing what you know now, would you do it again? For me for the signing of the vaccine if there was another COVID.
23. I think you could argue that was the variance, but if there was some sort of like an outbreak and stuff.
Yeah, I probably would. I think we knew enough that it was bad.
I mean you enough that a vaccine was a good idea.
And I would sign up for it again for something like that.
I mean, it depends on weighing out for them. I mean, I would. We have so much more advanced vaccine technologies now.
We have more RNA vaccines. We have the chat box. We have all these other vaccine technologies that we have so many options.
I think that there is so much opportunity to scale up more now and there's more ability to now know what is important, to be more flexible.
That I think. I would jump on it if it was an opportunity to sort of protect my family and protect myself.
I don't think you do this in isolation, these decisions. You always do it in weighing up with indecision, with people are impacts.
You are impacted, including your wife and your son and your family and things.
You don't do these things willy nilly, but I think it is I would still have the same response.
And I think and that's because it's a it was an intellectually faith decision based upon the known risks weighing up these things,
putting my emotions aside. You know, there's the emotions of the moment of what happens and everything emotions beforehand.
But I mean, I kind of would have. I it wasn't it wasn't terribly much of a gut decision about being afraid of it.
I kind of. I would be more afraid these days because there is so much more apprehension about being controlled by lockdowns and things that, you know,
the fact that things are spreading so much that I at times I fear if they if we are more vulnerable than we are ever been,
that there is always this familiarity that as if it would be like I would just be like tacos and it would be fine.
At some point in the future, they'll get the vaccines. It'll be fine. But yes, I certainly would.
I don't regret the decision at all. And.
I think, you know, it could have been anyone been the one of the first to be vaccinated.
It's just a bit of a roll of the dice.
I'm sure they probably they know that they wanted to have some people with medical experience and they got to buy stocks.
People were able to communicate the science.
I think for that service. I think, you know, in future, I think they would have it would have been better.
And I think they Oxford would be better to equip those participants to be at a sort of communicate and have a more cohesive messaging.
I just decided my messaging, my sort of tact, but that was my decision.
But I know full well that I could have had I had the the, the dangerous opportunity to create fear.
So it's just been our hero in the most mild sense. But then I could have just steamroll the whole thing is such a vulnerable thing.
I think it's it's just strange as an early participant, the sort of the opportunity and danger you have to actually serve those seats of fear.
And I think I think in future, if there was one that they should equip and sort of prepare those participants and support them with that, I think.
Yeah, it was, I think. There.
I mean, understandable. They wouldn't have been thought of like they wouldn't have anticipated to have a death threat.
It's just not that thought. All they were worrying about, I was trying to get anticipated this.
The deaf. The deaf, remember, You know, the fake, you know, the rumour of of the day.
Yes, yes. Yeah.
I mean, like they're going through all of the, the checks and balances talking to nice or whatever it is, this sort of they have, you know,
the Health Security Agency or whatever it was at the time and then they then the whole world is trying to make
sure they get over the line to injections of someone and then that that they all this marketing sort of stuff,
they realised they needed to help. They got the BBC and stuff, but then the whole like disinformation stuff, I don't think it was really anticipate.
I mean it wasn't they on their radar, it was like who could possibly imagine that they wouldn't be wanting to put to the,
the sort of seemingly positive, really neutral thing of, of a vaccine.
It seemed to be such a pure thing, like why would anyone want to create it?
But I think it just seemed to indeed make a claim that could be so easily disproved in minutes.
I know. And I was so, you know, I was thinking at the time that either this would be a great this I mean, this is going to be like such a deaf.
Now to all these anti-vaxxers, you know, the fact that like this now we don't have huge measles outbreaks.
They don't have these huge, like, you know, diseases in the past and stuff.
And, you know, I can understand complacency that can creep in, but like, you know, suppressing with COVID.
But yeah, I was quite naive how to see how much anti-vaxxers would dig their heels in and actually use as an opportunity,
particularly when it comes to the distrust of government, distrust of people, authority and distrust of authority figures.
And I feel like that was such a yeah, I didn't anticipate how much that would cause people to be really promoting that anti-vax.
I mean, fortunately, I never got any flak from anti-vaxxers.
I mean, the only thing I ever really received was like, what's it called?
Like, you know? A friend of my mom on Facebook going, Oh, that seems like a silly thing to do about me.
My mom would send me or something like that on that. But otherwise, like I've never received any sort of flak about from anti-vaxxers.
I mean, I've I know, I know plenty of people who chose not to get the vaccine.
They were resistant and they they have their reasons why they don't want to give it.
I disagree. But, you know, we can be friends with with friends.
It doesn't affect us. They.
These people can be perfectly reasonable, but there is a certain subset of people who are just it's just so vile and so so fear.
And I feel so sad for those people who are just who on their deathbed would just even glad that they didn't get the vaccine,
just glad that they just they didn't.
They held out and they went to the end not getting it.
And just that sad sort of desperate sort of like, you know, putting their heels in the ground is so sad.
And I, I don't think you can ever really fully counter that.
But what he can counter is that people are a bit, you know, unsure, a bit apprehensive.
It's a needle. You know, I like needles, you know,
just that sort of weighing up of things and just people being aware that this is a good thing is useful thing not to be scared of it.
I think the vast majority of people like that, and that was my experience with people in Australia.
I mean, there was an anti-vax people, but they were kind of very minor, slightly mocked,
they weren't very influential and most people would get around and it got up and did it and there was a very cohesive approach to it.
But I have I feel like there's a lot of missed opportunities of having everyone sort of
the vaccine rollout wasn't wasn't as as as effective as I could have been in the UK.
And I think it's a bit of a shame. And I think that sort of that sort of sad mixed messaging and stuff with it and I think.
That's where I think there was a sort of I feel at times when they're being exposed to so much the media bubbles of Australia and the UK,
they're not exactly the same and they're in these different worlds of perspectives.
And when they had Zero-covid in Australia, there was just two codes that did not exist at all.
And, and, and just that completely somewhat weird about the need for a vaccine.
We just relax and we can just take our time. But I remember when they, when there was that rollout and they all everyone did sort of sign up for it.
It was a it was it was a different attitude, I think, in terms of how to summarise it.
It was a an attitude of collective freedom through the vaccine that there was freedom through collective action.
Whereas I felt at times the British approach was always like, there is individual freedom with vaccine, and there wasn't that sort of collective.
X freedom. There was always this approach of of of freedom for not lockdown and things when they could have been collective
freedom through vaccines and masks and things that could have been such a different sort of slight attitude.
And I feel like now I'm going back to the beginning.
When I said I almost longed for early lockdown, I, I enjoyed that sort of sense of collective action where everyone was involved.
I think it's hard for us to even imagine it that the people would be clapping the nurses and stuff, the sort of the government.
It would be jingoistic. We doing all that stuff where we have this the the how far we've come when it
comes to strikes with the government's approach to the health workers is just.
Yeah. The it has been fascinating to see how much it has changed and society has changed.
And I, I do long for those early days of lockdown, to be honest.
There was a slight sort of hunkering down, almost like a Christmas attitude of of hibernation and and clarity, clarity around what needed to be done.
A sense there was some direction coming from the centre that, yeah, well we should get,
but we should just get back and we should just kind of finish your story. When were you able to get back to your proper work and why difficult.
Well. Well, I think it was quite a long time.
I think I couldn't really get back into actually the lab just because of paperwork.
There's a lot of paperwork and in comes to assuring that there will be this many people in the lab and this many spaces and stuff.
And it was just such a headache just to be able to like, organise that, to make sure that there was social distancing.
And it's so hard to like, predict how long you'll be in a lab experiments, the things that that kind of timeslots is up.
It's very disruptive. And so you had to be very selective about the times you actually got in and what you would actually focus on.
I was really scared not I was scared for many things.
I, I did not want to get the COVID because I knew that if I got sick, I could get COVID and then I wouldn't be able to work.
And I was quite scared because I was on a Tier two contract, which is a visa.
So I knew I if I didn't have work and my contract finished, I would be evicted.
I was scared. What would that mean? I could have go back to Australia.
The borders shut even to Australians who couldn't go back. Would I then?
If I would I be an illegal immigrant, would that mean that I my landlord would be therefore in trouble if they rented to me?
The implications of this, I was feeling really scared and nervous. I, i, I put in the grants just before COVID got amazing feedback.
It got out of hand of six I the external reviewers.
I got six, six and five. I was thinking, Wow, this is fantastic.
I'm going to be right. It's going to be great. I can't comment on what was behind the scenes.
I mean, whenever you see the upside, you always see the your own foibles and things.
You always improve. So I'm not saying it was a perfect grant. But when it came to the committee.
They have to weigh up how these projects would have a national and international impact.
And normally they would be funding bodies, would be awarding things to X, maybe eights and sevens, maybe usually eight out of ten.
This is how they would be ranking things. But in this one, I've never ever seen it before.
But there were like three projects and a ten.
It's now I've never seen it before and it can't have been anything else but a fast tracked Koven research projects in this sort of MRC body.
So when they did, they announced all these new medical research projects, all these medical fundings for the COVID research.
They got to talk about how many millions there are that that billions didn't come from anywhere except for the existing research budgets.
And so it's cannibalising existing funding. So I didn't get that grant.
That would have been a fantastic thing.
It would have been a give me assurance for a few years set me up in terms of actual my career being, I would have been a postdoc on this grant.
So it's effectively almost like my grants and it would have been fantastic.
And so I was then battling with the fact that I would then have only six, eight months left in funding or something.
I was going to have to get out, get some stuff out of my existing contract.
And so we had a back up grant that was had a one year funding that was for one postdoc, my colleague.
And then if it was then going to get extended,
we needed to get certain results out and that was going to be another three years on top of that announced for prostate cancer research.
And so I had to just really like get this results.
I had to be in the lab whenever I could with that and to get the results quick as I could, knowing that I had to balance.
I can't just hogged all the slots in my lab. So balancing that, being able to get it.
So feeling tense and I had to put all my outrage aside because I had to focus areas times in order to survive effectively to get it,
to have salary to stay where I am. And so it's kind of a scary time just having to really, one, not get sick.
So I wouldn't be I thought able had to get the research done in about us to cope.
And so, yeah, it was quite a scary time to be the threatened with homelessness,
effectively threatened with the ability that you wouldn't be able to cope with the research and,
and the opportunities for funding were just few and far between.
The fact that I got extended and we did get at that was almost unheard of.
Like it was completely outside of the normal funding, straight funding cycles where basically all the funding got stopped or extended.
There was no new funds for scientists and a lot of people would have actually dropped out effectively.
Maybe a lot of people got furloughed and extended. I don't think I was eligible for it because I was an immigrant.
Party to Visa. I don't think I was. So I had to keep working and there was no possibility sort of extending it.
So it's kind of a scary point. But fortunately, I was able to get that lift off of that funding to get to the next stage.
But it was fairly tense like it was it was a very uncertain time with that.
And. It's kind of those sort of the products of when there's.
It's easy to see when people, for example, existing researchers, when they lose their jobs, they make a splash.
Right. But what you don't see when it comes to these absence of new funding rounds or new sort of the next step or the new early career research,
France is you don't you don't see what you can't see.
You can't see what could have been or the fact that the there was no funding for
new research as it was existing researchers that would be held out existing.
So there's a whole like, you know,
generation or this little cohort of researchers who had sort of find ways to cope or may have missed out and dropped out.
So these there are actually probably a lot of, you know, casualties of that funding cycle that will never be known.
And very hard to see because no scientist is going to be as bold as being.
I missed out on this grant because of COVID or, you know, I didn't get funded because of COVID.
They can't ever say for sure because you never going to be sure of any grant.
But in terms of this, you know, I myself, I feel as if I would have been affected because of I know that that was prioritised.
I can't escape that. I was able to get a grant.
I'm fortunate in that respect. And now I've got some funding that I've lined up for a fellowship as well.
So I'm sort of I feel as if I'm kind of back on this, back on the right direction.
But I was definitely like. Was in the right direction before.
I was definitely on a much better trajectory. I got a couple of early career awards.
So these these conferences that became virtual during 2020.
So it was a weird sort of. But when you do those things, it's all because of the work in 2019.
So it's not it's sort of I felt like I've been I've lost.
Maybe one or two years. I feel like I'm completely shifted in terms of my career and I'm now getting up to speed with it.
But it definitely has impacted and in many ways is sort of I sort of have to I think I don't
think anyone in science for that sort of perilous sort of career is has been unaffected.
I think everyone's been affected. I think a lot of people are not honest about how much they are affected.
There's a lot of [INAUDIBLE]. There's a lot of bravado and things. But I think everyone has been affected and everyone has a different story.
And it has been. I think some people may have coped better.
I had a young child at home and that was hard.
It's hard to have to focus on science when you have a young child at home.
And that's hard. And so.
Everyone has different stories and stuff, and I think there will be so much studies in terms of sociology and economics
looking at researchers and the impacts on scientists during COVID and disruption,
and that as a fly before some were good, a time to pause and reflect and analyse.
In many ways, it's healthy to do that, particularly when the time is sort of feel the obligation, always get more and more data.
But in many ways that sort of career uncertainty, the funding uncertainty was just exacerbated more and more.
And the most irony of where the whole world was banging on medical research to be the one getting themselves out
of this whole mess is this is the sort of world that is still more perilous than ever in terms of uncertainty.
And so it's sort of. Yeah, it feels a bit conflicted at times when you see.
There is. Everyone can see the value of medical research, but they don't.
They don't see that they want to get that vaccine. They need it to actually fund the medical research for years before the boring aspects.
Deep structural structural biologists. I think I heard once of that the fact that they could actually create these
vaccines because they actually knew how to how to design the spike protein,
which is actually really hard to actually build and constructed in terms of it, except they this one person knew about it many,
many trials and errors that you need to have certain proteins at the base region of it to express it.
And that's the reason why we could have all those RNA vaccines and all those things,
because this one person years ago, probably nobody really knows about.
Probably got no, not not much credit. But that critical step meant that you could actually have these these vaccines.
I mean, there are many viruses we wouldn't be added just click and play like this without that kind of knowledge.
But it's those kind of boring steps that get overlooked. And I feel that I don't feel like we've learned our lesson in that respect.
And I feel like we haven't learned our lesson of what we value in society of medical research.
We have valued personal freedom. I think that's definitely something that was very much emphasised,
and I think that's something that we sort of we were longing for as if it was the what it was before.
But I feel like what it was before with medical research has always parallels and
I feel like it's become more perilous in terms of the certainty of the career.
And I feel like it just feels a bit sad because we have seen the brilliance of it.
So I think, you know, in terms of the long lasting legacy of it.
I definitely see the effect of translational research, the value of it,
but I don't overlook the importance of discovery research because it's those discovery steps,
the boring steps, the fact that money was such a peripheral thing years ago that it was kind of the joke.
I think I think I've ever heard hearing about it's effective. You know, how do you destroy MRI?
And you just look at it, it dies. It just it's so flimsy. It's just the fact that they could define a delivery mechanism to actually get it into
people's arms and hence why they were so afraid of when they were giving the vaccines.
You couldn't walk up stairs. You couldn't you couldn't walk up and down the stand because that will destroy the whole thing.
You know, the fear of that. It's just there's yeah, that's that's how I perceive the science.
I have to I perceive the sort of story a little like I'm conscious of the fact that there's the
boring story and the stuff that and I know that I was sort of receiving in the sort of a pin point,
the pivotal point that I am of the sort of human interest story.
But I was very much conscious of that. There's a lot more scientists,
a lot of things going on behind the scenes that wouldn't get the sort of the the coverage and this sort of opportunity to express it.
And at times, I feel like, you know. How do we as scientists convey that sort of importance to people, to the general public?
Because they're the ones who will vote. They're the ones who promote science.
And at times I'm still that at. I'm still puzzled at times.
I accept. I personally would just like to share the joy of discovery as just share that joy.
And I feel like I as a the vaccine participant, I was able to share that joy.
And I think when people share in that joy, they're seeing it as joy of freedom.
But I was seeing the joy of discovery, the science and seeing how that sort of those solutions.
And, you know, I think everyone sort of approached it differently, even that circumstance, that particular time.
I think my joy in that moment may have been different, what other people have seen of that.
But I think that's something that I would always want, I think would be a good way to sort of how much of that sort of pride of these scientists.
And I think that's definitely what they were trying to do with these royal honours and things with the these researchers.
And they're constantly trying to sort of make sure they have that sort of front and centre of that
opportunity to have that pride of that opportunity for scientists to do good and translation.
But it is a hard story because he had things to do because, you know,
they are that they are at the certain point of the story, they're all the scientist before them and then later the honours.
It's interesting how like more peripheral from them,
they get less decreasing orders and things and it's sort of that they're all part of the story is the same problem we have with Nobel Prizes.
They only give it to the three people when it's like a dozens of people working on the project.
But we keep we keep putting this like pedestal of these scientists as being on the pedestal when really
it's this huge pyramid of stories of of individual researchers plugging away in this in the labs.
That is like the reality of science and. And I find that even then we are tempted when we say retell this story, to overlook them,
overlook those the boring steps, the the technical steps that don't get as much coverage.
But actually they they use those researchers.
They don't necessarily have to have the the final product to see the joy in their work, the individual steps.
I still enjoy the stills involvement,
but it is exciting to see that when scientists are all put together and promoted and sort of and and given the resources to get on with their work,
it's just exciting to see that.
And in Spain, I'm quite fascinating to see what will happen in the future if academic research becomes more almost corporate in that respect,
that we have more of a team approach moving away from these pedestal people, these sort of weird ego.
Not to say that those researchers are egotistical or anything. I'm just saying the structure is science.
Is it places too much on the personality of one person or a person or the one as
if they're the one group leader and stuff when really it's it's is and a team.
That's why else I love the fact that it was the the vaccine team, the Oxford vaccine team.
It was it was academics working together And I always love collaborative research and being able to
see to working together as a team because it's you get to share the joys together and the lows,
but you hopefully get to pick each other up. But it was great to see that it's a collective team and hopefully people were able to see that sort
of the products we have give scientists resources and the ability to sort of feel comfortable,
to be able to not have to was. Claw each other to get at these sort of positions.
And there it is, slightly competitive but actually be working together in these classes.
That's great. No, I think so. To finish.
I'm kind of a sort of I don't know, is a rambling there, but I sort of I feel like, you know, it it does sort of make you it has been a.
Yeah. It has been a big moment. My life in a manger. And then I sort of reflected a lot on how what I do, what I continue to how I go.
I won't be the same researcher since I will always be slightly different, slightly motivated.
I always have that sort of weird anecdote. It's always useful to bring up, but also it's just a it's a way of.
And connecting with people. And I think that is something that scientists do find hard to connect with people.
But this was a particular point where we all were connected and very clearly.
Very good. Very good. Great. I'm going to start recording now.