1
00:00:02,780 --> 00:00:09,050
There we go. So could you start by saying your name and your current job title?

2
00:00:10,310 --> 00:00:17,300
So I'm Edward O'Neill. I'm a postdoc researcher at the University of Oxford within the Department of Oncology.

3
00:00:18,110 --> 00:00:26,219
That's great. Thanks very much. So, first of all, just tell me a little bit about yourself and starting from when you first got interested in science.

4
00:00:26,220 --> 00:00:29,360
So just take me through the main stages in your career so far.

5
00:00:30,150 --> 00:00:35,150
Okay. So I guess going backwards might be interesting way to do it.

6
00:00:36,350 --> 00:00:45,080
So I came to Oxford in 2017 and then a couple of months later I had had a first baby.

7
00:00:46,070 --> 00:00:55,400
But prior to that, I was doing my my Ph.D. at the University of Sydney in chemistry making MRI contrast agents.

8
00:00:55,880 --> 00:01:03,670
And then prior to that, I've had I was working, making new glues,

9
00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:13,430
so making new forms of construction adhesives and then doing undergraduate chemistry and regulating chemicals as well,

10
00:01:13,430 --> 00:01:15,020
and on the side for the government.

11
00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:23,270
And then prior to that, you know, high school, I enjoyed science in many ways that sort of a thing that sort of I fell into.

12
00:01:24,470 --> 00:01:29,450
It's something that I've always enjoyed problem solving and trying to solve things.

13
00:01:30,290 --> 00:01:35,090
And science has always been something that is just a nice way to express that.

14
00:01:36,470 --> 00:01:40,700
And I've always enjoyed I always enjoy the prospect of maybe doing medicine,

15
00:01:40,700 --> 00:01:48,829
but I actually ended up really enjoying science where you can sort of reflect and to think about what is there and more importantly,

16
00:01:48,830 --> 00:01:57,650
what is not known. And that really excites me. So when I was doing my degree in science, I was quite conflicted because I wanted to do everything.

17
00:01:59,180 --> 00:02:03,200
I settled on chemistry, but I was also actually doing immunology.

18
00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:10,970
So a lot of it. So I was actually a bit of a crossroads, a bit over doing into immunology and virology and things, and I was quite fascinated by that.

19
00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:17,659
In fact, I was quite interested in doing a project that was going to lead on to actually making vaccines actually.

20
00:02:17,660 --> 00:02:24,140
So it was synthesising a new form of nanoparticle that would be allow you to put stuff on to make the vaccine,

21
00:02:24,620 --> 00:02:27,679
which that group is still working on vaccines.

22
00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:32,810
In fact, I think they're starting to need more next generation vaccines still actually for COVID,

23
00:02:34,190 --> 00:02:38,990
But so that sort of seed of interest actually was quite interesting how it sort of

24
00:02:39,530 --> 00:02:46,400
threaded through and up to the the vaccine trial where I got to have some interest.

25
00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:50,419
I already had a bit of knowledge. I knew quite a bit about all this stuff.

26
00:02:50,420 --> 00:02:59,600
I wasn't working in in vaccines or anything. I'm working on radiation, a form of radiation oncology using radionuclide therapy,

27
00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:07,429
so using radioactive isotopes and that injected into people to then treat cancers from new and acquired at the time.

28
00:03:07,430 --> 00:03:11,540
But now prostate cancer. So a quite a bit different to vaccines,

29
00:03:13,220 --> 00:03:23,900
but it is a field that will have lasting implications on the rest of of oncology with the new oncology vaccines and things.

30
00:03:23,900 --> 00:03:26,960
So it is a fascinating area with vaccines.

31
00:03:27,620 --> 00:03:31,020
So we should just say that until you came to Oxford you were in Australia. Is that right?

32
00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:35,460
So when you say yes, I should say the government, you mean the Australian Government's Easter egg.

33
00:03:35,700 --> 00:03:40,040
So I'm not sure if it really comes across too much anymore. But my, my, my Australian accent.

34
00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:44,930
So I lived in Australia for most of my life and I,

35
00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:52,040
my wife and I are Australian from Sydney and then my undergraduate university, Sydney, that my Ph.D. there.

36
00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:59,540
So then I came to the University of Oxford, had a bit of time in University Turin in Italy before coming here.

37
00:03:59,540 --> 00:04:06,060
But otherwise, yeah, so I'm Australian and I am, yeah.

38
00:04:07,850 --> 00:04:13,549
And so as you say, yes, you developed an interest in chemistry, but the way you followed your chemistry,

39
00:04:13,550 --> 00:04:20,030
it's brought you back to biomedical science through the work on radioisotopes and, and using that to treat cancer.

40
00:04:20,580 --> 00:04:26,030
Yes. So I've always been quite fascinated by sort of translational, you know, creating a product.

41
00:04:26,030 --> 00:04:32,240
It's very similar to making glue. So you creating something, identifying the market and getting something that's used to people.

42
00:04:33,050 --> 00:04:36,410
But there's something much more valuable, I guess, in terms of creating new medicine.

43
00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:43,460
So hopefully getting something that you are creating in terms of an idea to be done in the clinic.

44
00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:46,640
That's quite a fascinating area.

45
00:04:46,670 --> 00:04:52,579
And so, you know, it's quite interesting being a part of a clinical trial to actually see what it's like on the receiving end,

46
00:04:52,580 --> 00:04:56,180
if that works in many ways. Mm hmm. Well, we'll get we'll get to that.

47
00:04:56,180 --> 00:05:02,090
We don't quite get to that yet. But so just to delve a little bit further into your current problem at the idea is.

48
00:05:02,310 --> 00:05:10,810
Deliver these chemicals directly to tumours to target them at tumours so they deliver their radioactivity in a very focussed way.

49
00:05:10,830 --> 00:05:15,500
Is that correct? Yes, very almost.

50
00:05:15,510 --> 00:05:21,510
It's sort of there's a form of radiation that you deliver, seeds of radiation that will be directly to tumours.

51
00:05:22,030 --> 00:05:30,120
That's called brachytherapy. But what mine is, is sort of an injected therapy that the chemical targets the type of receptors on the tumour.

52
00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:34,890
So things that on surface, the tumour that then causes them to be taken out by the tumour.

53
00:05:35,190 --> 00:05:44,730
It ionised or it radiates and damages the tumour from within and then causes the tumour hopefully to not grow anymore or to maybe regress and,

54
00:05:44,970 --> 00:05:49,920
and be cleared. But it's a form of focussed, sort of a targeted form of radiation.

55
00:05:50,280 --> 00:05:56,220
And my type of research in particular is trying to find ways to understand what is actually going on in the biology with that.

56
00:05:57,270 --> 00:06:01,169
So actually it's quite straightforward. And there's new opportunities, therefore,

57
00:06:01,170 --> 00:06:06,720
to combine it with other chemotherapies that because we don't really know what the biology is happening with it.

58
00:06:06,840 --> 00:06:09,870
There might be new opportunities to exploit with additional drugs.

59
00:06:10,410 --> 00:06:15,930
And then you have this lovely targeted therapy that hopefully uses the understanding with biology to then use

60
00:06:15,930 --> 00:06:21,900
other drugs to then have an even greater effect than just the radiation alone or the chemotherapy alone.

61
00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:29,250
Great. That sounds very good. So let's let's now arrive at the end of 2019.

62
00:06:29,250 --> 00:06:38,729
Beginning of 2020. How can you remember where you were when you first heard that there was some kind of respiratory illness

63
00:06:38,730 --> 00:06:45,150
spreading in China and how soon you realised it was going to be quite serious for the world at large?

64
00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:51,560
Well. I don't think.

65
00:06:53,280 --> 00:06:56,510
I mean, in many ways it's sort of very similar timing right now.

66
00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:00,389
It's sort of after the Christmas period, everyone's sort of a haze and looking forward to the future.

67
00:07:00,390 --> 00:07:04,110
And you're not really thinking of like what is what is going to affect us.

68
00:07:04,110 --> 00:07:08,330
Like that is going to be there's always some new thing like Ebola and stuff, and then it goes away.

69
00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,000
And I think there's a bit of a tolerance to that that we sort of feel as if these big things do.

70
00:07:12,450 --> 00:07:14,969
They fade away, removed. And in many ways,

71
00:07:14,970 --> 00:07:20,790
I feel as if a lot of the British press doesn't really like to talk about too much about these sort of things over

72
00:07:20,790 --> 00:07:26,939
in China and Asia and stuff or how they and it was definitely seen how they compared themselves to other countries.

73
00:07:26,940 --> 00:07:30,570
It was it didn't compare themselves to Southeast Asia countries or anything.

74
00:07:31,110 --> 00:07:32,850
And so there was a bit of a narrow view.

75
00:07:33,090 --> 00:07:37,830
It was only when I went to Italy and when it was Italy that was a big focus and there was a big sort of thing of,

76
00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,350
Oh, you've got to make sure it's all contained and stuff there.

77
00:07:40,980 --> 00:07:49,290
But that was actually of interest to me because I actually had a conference that was organised in Verona, which.

78
00:07:50,740 --> 00:07:55,330
Geographically between the two epicentres of those northern Italy outbreaks.

79
00:07:55,540 --> 00:08:00,180
And my my conference was going to be. Early April.

80
00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:05,070
So it was going to be the first week of April and I was really looking forward to it.

81
00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:11,520
I was looking forward to going to then and I was going to go to an earlier in in France,

82
00:08:11,790 --> 00:08:17,010
and it was actually going to be like a holiday because at that point I didn't actually have much of a holiday for quite a while.

83
00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:22,470
It was going to be like this lovely chance of sort of re refreshed, you know,

84
00:08:22,830 --> 00:08:29,490
things going on our lives that we wanted to actually have a break and actually replenish ourselves and stuff we were actually hoping is a nice break.

85
00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:38,420
So it was. Became dawning on us that this was not likely to be going ahead.

86
00:08:39,680 --> 00:08:47,120
That even though there was no cases reported around that area at the time, as it seemed to of the inevitable.

87
00:08:47,420 --> 00:08:52,280
And I remember people saying that I would just blow over will be fine. You know, you'll be able to go and stuff.

88
00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,849
But obviously, I wasn't able to go that conference early.

89
00:08:55,850 --> 00:08:59,070
Just got we got postponed again and again and again.

90
00:08:59,100 --> 00:09:06,980
So only recently I went to it. And I was yeah, it was quite excited about the prospect because I was gonna be invited to give a big,

91
00:09:07,190 --> 00:09:10,280
a big lecture for it, which was, as it turned out,

92
00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:16,760
to be really quite a pivotal moment in my career recently in terms of being an opportunity to sort of make my sort of,

93
00:09:19,340 --> 00:09:21,680
I guess, have my voice out there in my field.

94
00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:29,990
So it was kind of, you know, it was quite a bit of a change of reference in terms of saying that this wasn't going to go ahead.

95
00:09:32,690 --> 00:09:40,940
And I remember, you know, with the lockdown and things and not being able to go back to work, I remember just like I.

96
00:09:42,900 --> 00:09:49,200
I better go to work, grab what I can, and and set myself up at home.

97
00:09:49,830 --> 00:09:54,870
That included getting my big screen from work that I put into my my son's trailer.

98
00:09:55,350 --> 00:10:00,780
I just looked it up into the air and and basically snuck out as much as I could.

99
00:10:00,990 --> 00:10:05,310
All my stuff that I needed to work from home to your son's trailer, you mean?

100
00:10:05,460 --> 00:10:08,920
You mean a trailer for a bicycle? No. Bicycle? Yeah. Because I didn't have a car. Yes.

101
00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,750
So it was. It just fit, basically.

102
00:10:12,870 --> 00:10:16,470
It was one of those huge ones, which is very convenient for working from home.

103
00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:22,739
So. And they because the university essentially told everyone to go home a week ahead of the actual national lockdown.

104
00:10:22,740 --> 00:10:26,890
I think it was, wasn't it? It was probably middle of March.

105
00:10:26,910 --> 00:10:32,640
Yep. Yeah. And we work in animal research, so we had to sort of stop all studies.

106
00:10:33,300 --> 00:10:43,470
It was quite a, you know, a change of reference. I mean, I kind of quite used to having to just be reacting with whatever.

107
00:10:44,970 --> 00:10:49,590
Things out of your control in my research, like because I deal with I.

108
00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:56,230
Radio isotopes etiquette sometimes get cancel shipments or there's less of a but some issue logistics.

109
00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:59,959
I'm used to just having to be a bit flexible and just making do what we can.

110
00:10:59,960 --> 00:11:04,160
So that was my mindset. Just making do what we can have no idea how long it was.

111
00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:08,720
My wife was freaking out. That was going to be like, Oh, it's going to be for three weeks. How am I going to deal with three weeks?

112
00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,580
It's just like she just reflecting like, Oh wow, we were just so naive.

113
00:11:13,610 --> 00:11:17,870
Like was just he just did not have a frame of reference. They stuck around the house for so long.

114
00:11:19,670 --> 00:11:24,920
But I remember it just that sort of. The feeling of like.

115
00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,350
We don't know if we've had it or who has it and that uncertainty.

116
00:11:31,970 --> 00:11:36,520
And the testing just was really nonexistent.

117
00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:45,800
And so it was just kind of a blind thing where we feel as if we thought we had a lot of we knew of people who got sick with it.

118
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,000
And. Yeah. It was quite.

119
00:11:51,230 --> 00:11:56,600
Yeah, I, I may have been slightly exposed to somebody.

120
00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:02,329
May have, but I was only there briefly because I was running late. So maybe that was a fortunate thing.

121
00:12:02,330 --> 00:12:06,799
I was writing lights that, that thing, but then that sort of spread through that person.

122
00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:11,540
The person was a GP and so, you know, understandably was exposed to people who are unwell.

123
00:12:13,190 --> 00:12:16,800
And so it was kind of. Yeah.

124
00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:23,260
Yeah. I mean, in many ways it was kind of. Nice how simple life was in that respect.

125
00:12:23,270 --> 00:12:25,480
It was nice just to be this is what we're doing.

126
00:12:25,870 --> 00:12:33,879
I mean that, like a lot of things have just how are we going to have enough milk, you know, just flattening out how much milk we have,

127
00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:40,600
introducing powdered milk to our lives and things and and just the lack of availability of of online shopping.

128
00:12:42,820 --> 00:12:50,979
But those early days was just. Yeah, I think it's hard to remember and reflect on it, but I think it was it was stressful.

129
00:12:50,980 --> 00:12:55,840
But I what I remember with fondness was of the unity in a sense that everyone was in the

130
00:12:55,840 --> 00:13:02,530
same boat together and was was there anything you could get on with work related stuff?

131
00:13:02,530 --> 00:13:08,500
I mean, you say you brought your screen home, Did you have work you could do that only involved the computer?

132
00:13:09,610 --> 00:13:20,380
Yes. So I, I realised very early on in that that I had a habit of basically always doing the now the experiment, another experiment as always.

133
00:13:20,680 --> 00:13:26,500
And I never really invested enough time to actually reflect and reanalysed data.

134
00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:33,909
And so it was a good opportunity to actually look at data and reframe things and many ways I probably without that opportunity,

135
00:13:33,910 --> 00:13:40,780
wouldn't have actually discovered or some interesting findings having that sort of pause,

136
00:13:41,260 --> 00:13:45,310
which in many ways I was trying to adopt and tried to maintain to.

137
00:13:45,490 --> 00:13:50,680
And I think that's sort of a nice result of my working for scientists,

138
00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:57,880
lab scientists to actually be a way removed allows you to actually reflect on what you already have in terms of your data,

139
00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:03,729
to actually reflect on on things that more than just kind of the next thing, the next thing, next thing.

140
00:14:03,730 --> 00:14:09,370
And because it's kind of at times you don't have to use your brain, you can just do things that are kind of muscle memory.

141
00:14:09,370 --> 00:14:12,609
It's just nice to be sometimes it's in the movement, in the flow of things.

142
00:14:12,610 --> 00:14:16,960
It's nice to do lab work, but it's actually important to sort of reflect on what you do.

143
00:14:18,340 --> 00:14:22,510
Mm hmm. And so how did you come to hear about the vaccine trial?

144
00:14:24,590 --> 00:14:30,510
Through a work email. I saw it and then, you know.

145
00:14:31,910 --> 00:14:39,430
I don't know. How is it without diaries? I replied and signed up. It was something that I talked about with my wife,

146
00:14:39,430 --> 00:14:45,880
and I think we sort of discussed it and I did the final sort of signing up for it that night after my son went to bed.

147
00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:53,990
And. And what were the considerations that went through your mind when you were deciding to sign?

148
00:14:54,010 --> 00:15:00,410
Yeah. So. Now that I can talk about it, I feel like I can be more honest about it.

149
00:15:00,770 --> 00:15:07,880
Because at the time when you have those interviews afterwards, I mean, I started to realise how.

150
00:15:08,930 --> 00:15:12,799
Important for politicians to not just be waffling on and tell the whole story.

151
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:18,200
You have to be very grabbing in terms of what is the critical piece of information and the critical communication.

152
00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,780
So I can talk a bit more expanding about what my thought processes were.

153
00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:31,550
But, you know, early interviews, I'll just talk about how, you know, trusting the vaccine and just trusting the evidence of the science, whatever.

154
00:15:31,820 --> 00:15:41,150
But in terms of short sort of sound grabs, But in all honesty, I looked at the papers I designed.

155
00:15:41,540 --> 00:15:45,170
I swear I am still I keep going.

156
00:15:45,620 --> 00:15:55,790
My screen is somehow disappeared. But it is because I touched my I got one of these very sensitive mice and this is and it You carry on talking.

157
00:15:55,790 --> 00:16:00,260
I'm sorry. Okay. That's okay. We're still recording. I will try and get back to you.

158
00:16:00,980 --> 00:16:04,760
That's all right. It's moved. It's moved the image on to a different desktop.

159
00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,360
I just have to find the desktop. Okay, but don't worry.

160
00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:13,520
I am still here and you're still there. Okay, so we had a link to the email.

161
00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,020
They just. I think they just wanted to get, I guess,

162
00:16:16,070 --> 00:16:24,680
some volunteers quickly and using the networks of using the university sort of medical medical science division.

163
00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,130
Maybe they do send it out to everybody. I then.

164
00:16:29,970 --> 00:16:36,910
Look clicked on the websites, had a look at it and in in reference to that, they had all the papers beforehand.

165
00:16:37,270 --> 00:16:40,960
And in many ways it kind of I mean.

166
00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:51,830
It sounds like it's. This miracle of science is like this lucky sort of result or this like amazing result in things.

167
00:16:51,830 --> 00:16:59,899
But it was just I mean, many things in science when you pare back is just it's many years of work, many years of boring work that lead to it.

168
00:16:59,900 --> 00:17:07,430
And it was just the fortunate reality that they already had a functioning vaccine that was effective against murderers.

169
00:17:08,790 --> 00:17:16,319
That was the thing that really struck me was that because they already have and I know from immunology, from my undergraduate and stuff,

170
00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:22,530
is that most of their concern when it comes to a new vaccine will be the acute response,

171
00:17:22,890 --> 00:17:26,790
the adjuvants, if it's too stimulating or not stimulating things.

172
00:17:27,090 --> 00:17:35,510
But because they already have done that and they have basically had the whole scaffold, the what's the name, the Chadox1 Chadox1.

173
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,640
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They've already tried it in people. I just got it.

174
00:17:39,620 --> 00:17:42,749
Yeah. Well, yeah, they, they already tried it.

175
00:17:42,750 --> 00:17:48,299
I think it's something like 200 people before me is the sort of regular scale that they would use to.

176
00:17:48,300 --> 00:17:55,920
This is the normal scale Oxford University would be doing, and then that the whole thing will be spread out over a decade or something.

177
00:17:56,220 --> 00:18:00,390
But this is all obviously squashed into a matter of a year, less than a year.

178
00:18:01,470 --> 00:18:04,380
Not that they didn't do the science properly or anything.

179
00:18:04,980 --> 00:18:12,390
It was just yeah, So I was very confident with the fact that there would have been an immediate sort of I would have dropped dead sort of thing.

180
00:18:13,290 --> 00:18:16,160
But also. But you were sorry, excuse me.

181
00:18:16,170 --> 00:18:22,260
Because of your background, you were able to absorb a lot of quite technical information in order to get that kind of confidence.

182
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:33,030
And I'm just wondering, I think that they did kind of skew towards approaching health care workers and people within the university to volunteer.

183
00:18:34,350 --> 00:18:40,440
I wonder whether that was partly because they wanted to have a fairly well informed cohort.

184
00:18:41,820 --> 00:18:46,200
It's very possible. I mean, they would want health care workers. They've all likely to be exposed, to be honest.

185
00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:50,850
And I think it's quite a fascinating thing if you were to look at this study, the first cohort.

186
00:18:51,830 --> 00:18:59,180
We were probably the worst cohort to say because they're the most conscientious people and

187
00:18:59,180 --> 00:19:03,139
they're most likely to avoid high risk scenarios unless they had to do their work for us.

188
00:19:03,140 --> 00:19:06,080
So there was probably the worst candidates because they were not less likely to

189
00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,890
be infected and they probably had less infection than in subsequent cohorts.

190
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:15,020
So it's kind of an irony of that, that it's probably best for that in terms of being aware,

191
00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,220
but they're not really good on the test subjects to actually test the efficacy of it.

192
00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:29,659
But yeah, so I was definitely aware of. That it was, you know, a pretty reputable vaccine.

193
00:19:29,660 --> 00:19:35,000
I can understand what its structure was in terms of the the design that is affecting me.

194
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,450
Just a tiny little bit on top of it, it's not very much that different.

195
00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:43,850
So it seemed like fairly low risk because compared to what we were seeing with

196
00:19:43,850 --> 00:19:48,380
with COVID was that it was just we had no idea who the susceptible people.

197
00:19:48,710 --> 00:19:51,730
We had no idea who was high risk. We had no idea in terms of it.

198
00:19:51,740 --> 00:19:56,120
What we did know is, is killing lots of people. And it was obviously horrible and bad.

199
00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,500
And so it was kind of a as I you know, my sound bites, as I was saying before,

200
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:05,990
my sound bite was basically saying we we have what we know of COVID was really bad.

201
00:20:06,530 --> 00:20:12,590
What we know of the vaccine is acceptable risk. But what we know already, the known knowns are really bad.

202
00:20:12,890 --> 00:20:18,980
And so I always wanted to redirect people to the fear of actually COVID itself rather than the vaccine which.

203
00:20:19,980 --> 00:20:20,430
There's nothing.

204
00:20:20,430 --> 00:20:27,299
We have more control and more knowledge of rather than something which seems so out of control and even today, seemingly still out of control.

205
00:20:27,300 --> 00:20:36,330
And so with its prevalence of all these variants. And so I was quite confident that it was fairly acceptable risk.

206
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:46,830
It also seemed that it would be the only option realistically in the world that we would get a vaccine at some point.

207
00:20:47,730 --> 00:20:50,820
It was the safest way to have immunity.

208
00:20:51,570 --> 00:20:59,400
It just seems like a sensible thing to do. I also wanted to, you know, protect my wife, protect my family.

209
00:21:00,990 --> 00:21:04,469
The only reason why I couldn't sign my wife up was that she was breastfeeding.

210
00:21:04,470 --> 00:21:10,700
And that was one of the criteria. You couldn't have that. Otherwise I would have definitely wanted her to sign up as well.

211
00:21:11,420 --> 00:21:14,880
And she would The criteria. What were the criteria?

212
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:24,020
What made you eligible? It was it was they're looking for young people because they wanted to add their first phase just to have more confidence.

213
00:21:27,110 --> 00:21:30,829
I don't think it was. I mean, I can't remember the criteria exactly, but it was something where, you know,

214
00:21:30,830 --> 00:21:37,909
there's a certain age range and then they wanted to then, you know, you know, it's a very standard clinical trial.

215
00:21:37,910 --> 00:21:42,950
So staff people not pregnant or breastfeeding, those kind of things. And that's why I excluded my wife.

216
00:21:43,250 --> 00:21:47,600
But then for me, I didn't have any sort of pre-existing health conditions or anything.

217
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,470
It was quite boring. And so.

218
00:21:52,600 --> 00:22:03,610
Then. Yeah, they they mentioned also that there's a risk of it being you generate a hypo response basically to the to the disease.

219
00:22:05,380 --> 00:22:11,980
I mean it's kind of a bit of a concern because there was the big thing that everyone was having was it sort of feels like the vocabulary is now lost,

220
00:22:11,980 --> 00:22:15,010
but it was the cytokine storm was the thing that was O'Leary was talking about

221
00:22:15,430 --> 00:22:20,500
trying to make sense of why the body response was so huge against the the COVID.

222
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,040
And so I guess that was one of the main risks, is that if you did get COVID,

223
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:34,570
then with the vaccine actually making it worse and then seemingly did not happen in the mice, and then also and then to the the monkeys.

224
00:22:35,140 --> 00:22:39,580
And I found only really later that they only got the word of that.

225
00:22:39,580 --> 00:22:47,260
We go ahead of that those studies in the monkeys that morning, like just before like hours before they injected me.

226
00:22:47,270 --> 00:22:50,920
So it's like there's no there was no wiggle room in terms of time.

227
00:22:50,930 --> 00:22:54,610
There was never like, oh, we'll just come back, you know, have some coffee and come back later or something.

228
00:22:54,610 --> 00:23:01,030
It was we'll come back tomorrow or something as it was definitely trying to shave off as much time as possible,

229
00:23:01,030 --> 00:23:07,470
which is quite admirable and quite amazing. And talk me through having got to that.

230
00:23:07,710 --> 00:23:12,010
Talk me through and showing up for that that first injection.

231
00:23:12,010 --> 00:23:17,230
Because, I mean, you you were one of the first two, the only two who were done on that first day.

232
00:23:18,340 --> 00:23:28,750
Yes. So when I. I got a I think I had like they had a screening thing where you went in beforehand.

233
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:34,570
They had people go in and I found it very strange because I wasn't wearing a mask or anything, so I didn't have access to most of the time.

234
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:39,069
But we went in the everyone that got screening and sort of health checks and

235
00:23:39,070 --> 00:23:42,629
everything and and they wanted to make sure that you everyone was healthy beforehand.

236
00:23:42,630 --> 00:23:46,270
And so I, you know, before if you went to the trial.

237
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,930
And so they tell you all these potential risks.

238
00:23:53,930 --> 00:23:57,800
The main thing was that sort of, you know, over immune response, I think.

239
00:23:58,730 --> 00:24:01,870
And so. Yeah.

240
00:24:01,990 --> 00:24:03,270
So signing up for the trial.

241
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:10,780
Another thing I would add my mentioning is that at the stage there was no possibility of even getting tested unless you're in hospital.

242
00:24:11,590 --> 00:24:15,819
I'm not a health care worker and I wouldn't have been tested.

243
00:24:15,820 --> 00:24:20,560
So I almost another very slightly pragmatic response was like, well,

244
00:24:21,100 --> 00:24:27,089
at least I'll be tested and at least they'll care about me in terms of be keep an eye on me and for health reasons.

245
00:24:27,090 --> 00:24:29,260
So they have an interest in actually keep an eye on me.

246
00:24:29,830 --> 00:24:35,709
So it's almost this pragmatic sort of thing of like, well, the situation in the UK is that, well, if I'm in the trial,

247
00:24:35,710 --> 00:24:43,150
at least they'll test me and is and if you have a 50% chance of being vaccinated against the the disease.

248
00:24:43,900 --> 00:24:47,190
Yeah that was, seemed like a good sort of bet.

249
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,180
But even just the testing bit, I thought it was attractive.

250
00:24:49,660 --> 00:24:57,340
Just so honestly I thought that was because I was, it was just such like a panic in terms of not being able to know if you were infected or not.

251
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,380
And just the fear of then of infecting someone else and feeling a bit responsible for that.

252
00:25:02,620 --> 00:25:06,280
I think I've always felt that responsibility.

253
00:25:07,120 --> 00:25:15,520
So when I when before I went to the actual day, so there was that screening and then there was I received a phone call from the.

254
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,670
The coordinator, so the clinical trial coordinator.

255
00:25:21,210 --> 00:25:26,210
And he asked me, like, as you said, they how they want to health care.

256
00:25:26,490 --> 00:25:30,180
So you asked me and they can see that I've got some you know,

257
00:25:30,180 --> 00:25:36,479
I'm a postdoc and I've got some experience and know how to communicate all knowledge of what what the trial is about.

258
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,570
And they just wanted to check that out, feel comfortable, because they might be.

259
00:25:40,620 --> 00:25:42,149
He just said it's almost in positive.

260
00:25:42,150 --> 00:25:46,680
There might be some media, especially where there might be some media attention and they might ask you some questions.

261
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:54,899
And in my mind, I'm framing it as being when he's calling me, I'm like thinking they're going to have like it's going to be just like a passing shot.

262
00:25:54,900 --> 00:25:58,620
There's like 20 people there or something, and I'll just be one of those people and just,

263
00:25:58,620 --> 00:26:01,829
just the by they might ask me a question saying, How are you feeling?

264
00:26:01,830 --> 00:26:08,250
I'm like, I'm okay or something. I didn't really actually have much of a concept and they didn't really tell me at all.

265
00:26:08,790 --> 00:26:19,349
They didn't tell me at that stage I'll be one of the first two. And so when I did turn up that day, I realised, Let's just get the date again.

266
00:26:19,350 --> 00:26:24,389
It's that it must be embedded in your memory because it's not complete. Honestly, I don't actually remember.

267
00:26:24,390 --> 00:26:30,990
It was something like the 23rd of April, but I'm not absolutely sure this was around then this around then.

268
00:26:31,590 --> 00:26:37,700
It was one of those days and whichever day it was.

269
00:26:37,710 --> 00:26:47,280
And so I remember when I was like, sign out for us realising. Because everyone's looking at the news and trying to be aware of it.

270
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,719
And there's a lot of, you know, awareness of the trial and stuff.

271
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:55,549
And I, I remember I can't remember exactly what point it was either.

272
00:26:55,550 --> 00:27:04,160
Just before I arrived, I realised that I was like. I might have just look at the clinical trial protocol because they have to publish

273
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,309
the protocol after every update to the protocol that if you're participating,

274
00:27:07,310 --> 00:27:10,310
they keep giving you updates, just very small, minor things.

275
00:27:10,310 --> 00:27:13,760
They highlight them and things that it was always going to be an updated little bit here and there.

276
00:27:14,450 --> 00:27:18,260
But I had a look at it and it it said that there would be two participants.

277
00:27:19,210 --> 00:27:24,430
And then they will then do the subsequent, I think, six or something after a couple of days.

278
00:27:25,810 --> 00:27:33,040
And so I realised that if I was going to be potentially the first that day as he called off and told me,

279
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,970
I then dawn on me going, Oh, I actually might be one of the first two.

280
00:27:37,900 --> 00:27:42,040
So nobody actually told me exactly I'll be the first two, but except there was the obviously the particle.

281
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,020
But they didn't actually specify that was going to be the case.

282
00:27:44,350 --> 00:27:48,520
And so then when I arrived and I'm the only one in the waiting room just sitting there.

283
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,129
Just very curious about it.

284
00:27:51,130 --> 00:27:59,500
And and you know something that they're probably now so bored about doing and stuff in terms of having people churn for the,

285
00:27:59,890 --> 00:28:03,580
the participants and stuff. I was yeah. The only one and it was very.

286
00:28:04,670 --> 00:28:11,200
Yeah. Realisation that I might be. Yeah, the first or whichever.

287
00:28:12,790 --> 00:28:17,529
And where was the location? The location was just down the road from my work, actually.

288
00:28:17,530 --> 00:28:21,340
So. My. It was just at.

289
00:28:23,610 --> 00:28:30,420
Wow. It's a pretty nothing earth looking building at the on the south side, on the outskirts of the Churchill Hospital.

290
00:28:31,500 --> 00:28:35,220
The Centre for Clinical Vaccinology and Tropical Medicine. Yeah, that one.

291
00:28:36,900 --> 00:28:40,139
Most of the buildings, the General Hospital wing. My, my, my own included.

292
00:28:40,140 --> 00:28:44,010
Don't. They all look like low rise houses and things. They don't look like anything special.

293
00:28:45,090 --> 00:28:49,350
And so I get there and, you know, they check be on the list and stuff.

294
00:28:49,350 --> 00:28:54,660
And I see that there's only two names. There's a security guard because they had obviously had security and stuff.

295
00:28:55,830 --> 00:29:00,480
I think they also had security just to make sure there was no other cameras except for the BBC because they had the exclusive rights.

296
00:29:00,660 --> 00:29:05,280
Turns out. And they. Yeah.

297
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:11,129
So I waited and then I went in and because I've never actually because we never myself in

298
00:29:11,130 --> 00:29:15,360
the lines and never actually crossed paths at all the other participant in the first two.

299
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,390
But and in fact I do think we've actually never seen each other in real life.

300
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,649
We've only just have a we've know we've just sort of passed with, yeah,

301
00:29:22,650 --> 00:29:27,630
we were never in the same place at the same time, maybe different rooms or something, but never actually in person.

302
00:29:28,890 --> 00:29:32,910
And yeah, it came down to me and I, my.

303
00:29:34,330 --> 00:29:39,400
I message my brother to saying, Oh, by the way, I think I might be the first.

304
00:29:41,410 --> 00:29:46,210
And because he's he's living is and he was at the time and now Australian living in London.

305
00:29:49,030 --> 00:29:58,000
And I think he made a comment of saying like, if Perrier bottles there, just make sure to point that your Australian leg pointed out or something.

306
00:29:59,170 --> 00:30:02,770
So if I had to play it fascinating when I reflect back on it that they chose to.

307
00:30:04,140 --> 00:30:07,800
One, a German and an Australian as their first participants.

308
00:30:09,260 --> 00:30:13,980
For something that could be quite jingoistic. A very home-grown British sort of vaccine.

309
00:30:14,850 --> 00:30:23,900
I don't know if that was a deliberate choice or not, but they wanted to have it because I was vibing from subsequent interviews.

310
00:30:23,910 --> 00:30:33,510
Everyone, one that was in the the Corona cast of the BBC, they was saying that it was that of it's bigger than Brexit.

311
00:30:33,690 --> 00:30:37,919
And I think that sort of was trying to frame it as being a global problem and a global thing.

312
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:45,719
And I think that's the definitely the sort of framework at least they were portraying is that this isn't a jingoistic British thing,

313
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,049
but rather as a global problem and global solution.

314
00:30:49,050 --> 00:30:52,050
And you can see that with the COVAX approach and then at cost.

315
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,400
That was an Andy Pollard quote, wasn't it bigger than Brexit thing?

316
00:30:56,790 --> 00:31:00,160
Yeah, I'm just let's just listen to it this morning. So yes. Yeah.

317
00:31:00,270 --> 00:31:03,600
I hope that. Yeah, that was it. Yeah. So that was it.

318
00:31:03,630 --> 00:31:17,310
So I thought that was Yeah. Anyway so I was waiting in the waiting room then I got in and then there's Fergus Walsh and the cameraman and they.

319
00:31:19,130 --> 00:31:24,800
I got in and and then they said, What's going to happen?

320
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,890
Then I'm going to have an injection and they're going to ask me some questions straight afterwards.

321
00:31:27,890 --> 00:31:35,900
So it's quite a weird experience knowing that I would be having an injection on camera and then immediately had a

322
00:31:35,900 --> 00:31:42,650
boom microphone trickling in my face straight afterwards to say my word as if it's like a Neil Armstrong situation,

323
00:31:43,070 --> 00:31:46,970
just like, what is this? What is this word that I was saying? What are these statements afterwards?

324
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:52,580
I do remember that because we weren't actually the first to get a COVID vaccine in the world.

325
00:31:53,420 --> 00:32:04,040
I remember that the it was a no no. The as the Madonna one was first in the US, it's like day is as long as a week before it wasn't very long.

326
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:09,950
So I remember the images and stuff and I remember like they're going to have an image and they're going to use the image I better have.

327
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,270
I'm going to have a cheerful shirt. So that's the sort of thought I had before I came.

328
00:32:14,300 --> 00:32:20,780
And I'll make sure I have a nice, cheerful black shirt. And so that's a short sleeved shirt.

329
00:32:20,780 --> 00:32:22,999
So I didn't, you know, just roll it up and everything.

330
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:28,130
Those are the sort of weird thoughts you have on the way to something is actually quite, quite a big event.

331
00:32:30,750 --> 00:32:40,230
And. Yep. And, you know, they asked me questions. It's a bit of a blur about it, but I remember that.

332
00:32:44,420 --> 00:32:46,490
There's something I wanted to actually convey.

333
00:32:47,270 --> 00:32:54,020
Was that just because I'm sort of, you know, was aware of the situation and the apprehension about things.

334
00:32:54,950 --> 00:33:04,700
So I myself as a Christian, I was quite conscious of the fact that what this action was was actually in many ways a step of faith.

335
00:33:04,940 --> 00:33:07,610
And so I mentioned that as a way of saying, you know.

336
00:33:08,660 --> 00:33:14,450
I've got faith in the scientists and things and mentioning that this is kind of a because I kind of.

337
00:33:16,430 --> 00:33:23,660
Sort of. You sort of as a faith response would be something that you are know is to be true and then you do it.

338
00:33:24,140 --> 00:33:27,350
But it's not something you know for certain, Like it's not something, you know, for certain, just like the vaccine,

339
00:33:27,350 --> 00:33:31,999
you know, for certain that was to be the case that will be working or that to be safe and things.

340
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:39,260
But you sort of walk in faith. You go, that's an active thing of going using intellect, knowing that something that you believed to be true.

341
00:33:39,650 --> 00:33:44,500
And then and I thought that would be a you know, I had to set my mind thinking that, you know,

342
00:33:45,230 --> 00:33:57,559
maybe that might sort of cut against some sort of apprehension that people might be having, you know, that it's okay to sort of I don't know,

343
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:02,660
I it was just something that I had in my mind at least, because there can be I you know,

344
00:34:02,660 --> 00:34:08,210
this sort of nervousness of the vaccine and a lot of like, you know, in faith groups and things about this.

345
00:34:08,450 --> 00:34:17,149
But I saw it as being, you know, how I express some of my my faith, which I science of things is that that's how I would be approaching it,

346
00:34:17,150 --> 00:34:25,100
is that it's an intellectual trust and also trust in the work of all the scientists, all the boring work that done beforehand to get to this point.

347
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:34,529
And so, yeah, it's a there is emotion when it comes to the vaccine is still is not a simple

348
00:34:34,530 --> 00:34:38,149
there's always complicated motivations based on getting it and stuff but I was

349
00:34:38,150 --> 00:34:41,330
wanting to sort of see it as being like you sort of have to make a decision your

350
00:34:41,330 --> 00:34:45,070
mind that this is a good decision and go for it because there are versions of it.

351
00:34:45,090 --> 00:34:53,030
You know, I remember when they just injected the vaccine in me, I was just thinking, that's a big syringe, just a lot of liquid.

352
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:09,880
Those are the kind of thoughts ago in your mind. And who else was present in the room apart from the BBC team at US Weather?

353
00:35:10,300 --> 00:35:17,470
Yeah, but but the the kind of leaders of the vaccine team, people like that, when they went there, they were no, they weren't there.

354
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:29,020
I sense that they were in the corridor. I sense that they were in the corridor and they maybe they I don't know if was fully blinded or not.

355
00:35:29,140 --> 00:35:34,860
I don't know to them. I don't know the situation of how much they knew if was double blinded or not.

356
00:35:34,870 --> 00:35:41,290
But they I sense that they were aware, but not being in the room.

357
00:35:43,350 --> 00:35:46,470
Because, you know, they might if who knows what the effect was.

358
00:35:47,970 --> 00:35:51,510
And so, yeah, because of any I mean, anyone getting the vaccine,

359
00:35:51,510 --> 00:35:55,470
you sort of have to hang around for a little bit because I'm the first to have to hang around for a bit longer.

360
00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:02,220
And then how long how long roughly, were you there? I think I was at least there for about half an hour or something afterwards.

361
00:36:02,340 --> 00:36:07,379
Like, I remember an hour or something. But I took bloods either before or after was a summary of.

362
00:36:07,380 --> 00:36:18,300
Exactly. And then, you know, days later you get a lot of bloods and so much so many little tubes of blood taken out over the time and.

363
00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:23,850
Yeah. So that's what. That's what kind of happened.

364
00:36:23,940 --> 00:36:27,599
And then as I was leaving. How often did you.

365
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:33,149
Oh, sorry. Carry on as you were leaving yet? As I was leaving, I sort of a strange thing to the leaving.

366
00:36:33,150 --> 00:36:35,070
The building is sort of just like heading home, going.

367
00:36:35,940 --> 00:36:44,790
Something big happened and this feels strange that this feels like there the weight of the world on my shoulder, that kind of thing.

368
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:53,159
And then I also recognise that there was a there was an ambulance just parked right outside and only later I

369
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:58,230
was just like thinking about as I was cycling home discussing anything else they have just in case for us,

370
00:36:59,940 --> 00:37:02,969
like it was just like in our private and it was just in case of a situation.

371
00:37:02,970 --> 00:37:08,520
They probably had to have some sort of protocol thing just in case they had an electric shock or quiver or whatever.

372
00:37:08,910 --> 00:37:12,510
But it was just like, is it dawned on me. I was going, Oh, that's potentially a risk.

373
00:37:13,710 --> 00:37:21,600
Which, you know, I get I get a call the other day like the of the government was the day after or something.

374
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:27,240
But there was they called me up saying, by the way you might be aware of I'm I'll sure you are that there is a.

375
00:37:28,710 --> 00:37:32,550
A hoax that one of the participants has died.

376
00:37:32,580 --> 00:37:35,980
I assure you that it hasn't. Yes. As they called me out about that.

377
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,830
But before I was going to ask whether you'd actually seen the report that she died.

378
00:37:41,610 --> 00:37:48,120
Well, the first I the first I heard was from the the study, which was, you know, props to them at times of being able to pre-empt that.

379
00:37:48,930 --> 00:37:55,310
I then. I then before I even I think it was a day or something.

380
00:37:57,820 --> 00:38:00,910
No. I mean, it was the next day or something. I can't remember exactly,

381
00:38:00,910 --> 00:38:10,690
because it's a little bit of a blur because I did a whole bunch of a flurry of media interviews because obviously they had the Fergus Walsh,

382
00:38:10,690 --> 00:38:19,900
the BBC footage that went out. Then they, a reporter, Australian reporter based in London, recognised the accent,

383
00:38:21,010 --> 00:38:27,280
then went in to hunt me down to sort of have an interview, and then I had an interview on Skype with him.

384
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:36,880
And then that footage then seemingly got sort of sold on to a whole bunch of other shows in Australia in particular.

385
00:38:37,930 --> 00:38:46,180
And so then people in Australia then knew about me and that was a bit of a weird, surreal experience having all that.

386
00:38:48,490 --> 00:38:54,230
But we had to sort of, you know, supposedly be all these shows without actually seeing, you know,

387
00:38:54,270 --> 00:38:59,970
being on the show because then they'll have like fake fake people and ask you questions, the same question that everybody would have.

388
00:39:01,350 --> 00:39:08,580
And then I, I found the whole experience sort of slightly strained because I felt quite removed from it because I,

389
00:39:08,910 --> 00:39:11,690
I didn't have a TV licence at the time. I still don't have a TV.

390
00:39:11,700 --> 00:39:16,460
So actually I never actually saw the footage or anything like that, except for just people literally,

391
00:39:17,220 --> 00:39:20,580
you know, videotaping on their phone or something or a few YouTube clips or something.

392
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:29,129
But it was interesting then to see how whatever stop footage from the BBC got, then trends formed and sort of whatever,

393
00:39:29,130 --> 00:39:35,580
they had their own cut through all the know India and everywhere and how much that spread for the world.

394
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:41,129
It's kind of a nice sort of opportunity to have this sort of a sense of hope of the, you know,

395
00:39:41,130 --> 00:39:45,540
the potential end to the coronavirus or some sort of part of a way of approaching it.

396
00:39:46,530 --> 00:39:52,960
So it's kind of a it was a nice to have that sort of like, you know, after some communism really only a few months or whatever.

397
00:39:52,980 --> 00:39:57,030
But to actually have that as an option, that this this might be a way out.

398
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:04,380
And I think one thing that sort of dawned on me, particularly when I had these interviews, is that.

399
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,400
It's something that a lot of the reporters, they kind of were trying to angling for.

400
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:16,130
They kind of, you know, I'm I'm not the scientist of the trial.

401
00:40:16,220 --> 00:40:17,750
I'm not the person.

402
00:40:18,470 --> 00:40:25,760
Some one reporter in Australia kept on criticising the vaccine and getting me to defend it, and it was not really appropriate for my vaccine.

403
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,740
But I sort of feel like I hesitated. It was very strange.

404
00:40:29,750 --> 00:40:36,950
I didn't like that guy is very critical, strangles its own bubble away from it all at the same time.

405
00:40:37,310 --> 00:40:48,790
But they. They kind of because I was sort of the human interest story of it, they kind of want to push you in to be like some sort of hero.

406
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:56,650
And I remember I really was sort of like pondering about it and sort of contemplating on it.

407
00:40:59,820 --> 00:41:08,180
Realising that. Especially, I saw at least one other person who participated early participant nodules or someone else giving interviews and stuff,

408
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:13,259
and that what they would emphasise is, yeah, there's a real risk.

409
00:41:13,260 --> 00:41:16,440
They told us that if there's a, you know, the, you know, the vaccine, if you get it,

410
00:41:16,590 --> 00:41:22,260
there's a whole risk that if I get it and then I get the coded, it'll be make it even worse and stuff and really building it up.

411
00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:26,879
And also talking about the symptoms of the vaccine itself.

412
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:31,200
And I just thought to be really is really inappropriate to talk about that because it's an open trial.

413
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,889
I don't want to I mean, I'm blinded. I don't want to say what it what I have, etc.

414
00:41:34,890 --> 00:41:45,630
And I don't know. And I also realise the most important thing is that if you make it look like a heroic thing, it makes it immediately scary.

415
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,740
This. You can't be heroic without being something scary when in reality.

416
00:41:52,040 --> 00:42:01,120
I just wanted to emphasise. It's a should be a pretty boring thing, just like we have with vaccines, our normal flu shots or whatever.

417
00:42:01,130 --> 00:42:05,680
It's a fairly boring occurrence like it should be. It shouldn't be any scary thing at all.

418
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:11,200
And I was trying to be very emphasising that just to be like, no, you know, not to be like false community.

419
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:12,849
I saw the danger of that.

420
00:42:12,850 --> 00:42:19,630
It's very tempting to go to your own haunt, but it's actually dangerous and actually counterproductive to actually think about.

421
00:42:20,470 --> 00:42:25,390
The vaccine is a dangerous thing to be sort of to be suck up and do it.

422
00:42:25,690 --> 00:42:28,450
And I remember that earlier on, people were very worried about it.

423
00:42:28,450 --> 00:42:34,390
And and to be honest, I had less knowledge about the vaccine than than anyone at the time, obviously, because of the first one.

424
00:42:35,650 --> 00:42:43,390
But I'm you know, I'm I'm very I you know, I'm more impressed by your like, you know, a lot of friends in Australia who,

425
00:42:43,660 --> 00:42:49,569
you know about my age who as a result of Australia by going out,

426
00:42:49,570 --> 00:42:55,450
they courage all order their vaccine orders and stuff had a lot of AstraZeneca, but not any of the devices and things.

427
00:42:57,070 --> 00:43:01,780
And so young people weren't going to be the end of the list because a whole bunch of older people were actually hesitant.

428
00:43:01,780 --> 00:43:05,169
And they're actually a risk really, but they were very hesitant.

429
00:43:05,170 --> 00:43:09,010
And so then. It was sort of delaying the vaccine rollout.

430
00:43:09,010 --> 00:43:14,860
But a lot of young people, the government was like, well, talk to your GP if you're young and then you can make the decision yourself.

431
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:19,180
And so a lot of my friends did that and they knew all the risks to manage risks,

432
00:43:19,180 --> 00:43:23,680
but they did it because they wanted to protect their, you know, their their wife who was pregnant.

433
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:29,559
They wanted to do all these things. And they, you know, in many ways, I know that they were influenced by the fact that I did it.

434
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:34,420
They sort of had that sort of connection where they knew that because I went ahead and did it,

435
00:43:34,420 --> 00:43:39,550
that there's something to it or something or, you know, that that concept of it was okay.

436
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:46,120
And I was quite amazed by this. They the sheer sort of willingness, a lot of Australians to do that,

437
00:43:46,900 --> 00:43:52,270
even when they had very low numbers of COVID was sort of at the point where they were like, oh, is it they might,

438
00:43:52,270 --> 00:43:56,720
we might get away with it not having any COVID and therefore we shouldn't give vaccines because there's that tiny risk,

439
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,780
the assumption that there wasn't any COVID as if it was not going to be inevitable anyway.

440
00:44:03,980 --> 00:44:09,270
So. I think. Yeah.

441
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:15,519
So I that was my sort of guiding philosophy in my mind is to try to not make it a scary

442
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:21,630
thing to point towards the very boring work of science in terms of the careful work.

443
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,550
Just everything is just sped up, given the resources.

444
00:44:24,910 --> 00:44:30,490
And it's quite an exciting sort of opportunity to see sort of science in action when you given the resources,

445
00:44:30,730 --> 00:44:34,300
a huge amount of resources and also a really cool to see other academics,

446
00:44:34,690 --> 00:44:40,179
teams working together when at times in academia we're sort of the colleagues

447
00:44:40,180 --> 00:44:46,450
that pseudo competitors with your fellow colleagues and just to see that like,

448
00:44:46,730 --> 00:44:54,879
you know, the advancement of like of something which honestly was quite peripheral and at times the vaccine sort of group,

449
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:58,300
the gender and stuff, I was always aware of it, but in many ways it was kind of a bit of a.

450
00:44:59,530 --> 00:45:03,399
It was kind of a bit of a peripheral aspect of like research at university.

451
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:07,240
Wasn't that central? It was not that sort of valued. And in fact,

452
00:45:07,240 --> 00:45:14,620
those all those people who are now with permanent jobs and professorships and and things would have been just keep having to fight for their own jobs.

453
00:45:14,980 --> 00:45:18,340
You know, every few years of getting their own fellowships and things,

454
00:45:18,340 --> 00:45:21,580
they would have had to keep fighting for and survival and justification, just like all of us.

455
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:30,620
But, I mean, they were doing great work, but a lot of it was on vaccines that would be deployed in developing countries rather than in the West.

456
00:45:30,910 --> 00:45:39,790
Things like solar and rabies and stuff that a lot of companies wouldn't have thought to bother paying for the governments or even,

457
00:45:40,030 --> 00:45:44,889
you know, something that effectively aid work effectively. So that is really important.

458
00:45:44,890 --> 00:45:51,879
In fact, like the vaccine for malaria might have way more impact than the COVID vaccine, but that doesn't get as much airtime.

459
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:57,340
But that's actually a huge advancement. So it's it's not that they haven't been doing great work.

460
00:45:57,340 --> 00:46:03,220
It's just all of a sudden people pay attention to it and they're given the resources and they're able to give the time to focus on it.

461
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,730
And it just so I mean, it wasn't your it wasn't your field,

462
00:46:07,090 --> 00:46:15,580
but it sounds to me as you as though you got very interested in the whole business of vaccine development deployment trials.

463
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:21,999
As a result of your personal experience of having been involved, I was quite fascinating.

464
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,590
I mean, like the Beynon part of that, one of the first to be participants.

465
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:33,370
You got a bit of a firsthand look at how the trial was really they were doing it as fast as they can,

466
00:46:33,370 --> 00:46:39,210
which means also they didn't have the electronic sort of checking system online sorted.

467
00:46:39,220 --> 00:46:41,980
We had been given paper just to write it down ourselves and stuff.

468
00:46:41,980 --> 00:46:48,459
We were just everything was kind of always, I wouldn't say last minute, but like pushing to the last minute.

469
00:46:48,460 --> 00:46:54,400
It was kind of it was everything was, you know, not not done wrong or anything, but it just going as fast as they possibly can.

470
00:46:55,370 --> 00:47:01,839
And so it was it was, yeah. Fascinating to see how something were where, you know, honestly,

471
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:11,980
it probably wasn't in their skill set that they were having to rapidly learn how to deal with a massive multinational vaccine rollout.

472
00:47:12,340 --> 00:47:18,100
But, you know, they are capable researchers that are able to adapt and change and take the moment.

473
00:47:19,270 --> 00:47:23,259
I'm sure it would have just been a case of just a slight adrenaline.

474
00:47:23,260 --> 00:47:27,070
Just keep them going. You just you just do this and you just keep doing it.

475
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:32,169
I, I don't know at what point they actually sort of realised they could actually

476
00:47:32,170 --> 00:47:37,719
rest and they certainly weren't doing too many sort of interviews and stuff.

477
00:47:37,720 --> 00:47:41,050
They probably rejected quite a few because they had to just get on with it. There's so much stuff to do.

478
00:47:43,220 --> 00:47:49,549
And if anything, I kind of felt like I was done jump to the deep end when it comes to this, all this media engagement and stuff.

479
00:47:49,550 --> 00:48:01,220
I wasn't given any training or any sort of instruction. I think I was I was I was asked, are you okay with with some media around their first call,

480
00:48:01,610 --> 00:48:06,740
then the subsequent fake death saying that, oh, if you have any issues, just let us know.

481
00:48:07,700 --> 00:48:11,450
If you're finding it a bit overwhelming, just don't don't respond to it.

482
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:17,410
But when you're ready to contact with people contacting you directly or where you getting.

483
00:48:17,750 --> 00:48:22,880
What was the university press team feeding reporters to you?

484
00:48:23,390 --> 00:48:28,430
I've never talked to the press team. I know it was all just directly to me.

485
00:48:28,460 --> 00:48:36,080
In fact, they sometimes they found my my university websites, say, via my university website and LinkedIn.

486
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,980
I didn't I wasn't on Twitter at the time, but I realised I probably should be on Twitter.

487
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:44,420
It's like I just some of those things I just never really was all that involved with.

488
00:48:44,690 --> 00:48:49,669
But I sign up for Twitter because I thought, Hey, maybe I might get some interest in my own research or something.

489
00:48:49,670 --> 00:48:52,430
You know, maybe I'll use that as a way for people to find me.

490
00:48:52,430 --> 00:49:00,440
And so then they get calls, direct messages from all these allies, reporters around the world wanting to have interviews.

491
00:49:01,310 --> 00:49:05,210
And they one person even contacted my boss trying to find me.

492
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:18,139
And he had found that very befuddling. And so I yeah, I did sort of, you know, Skype sort of interviews or like sometimes live interviews.

493
00:49:18,140 --> 00:49:24,530
I kept getting called up even months later because I was just up on the list of somebody that is related to COVID vaccine.

494
00:49:24,530 --> 00:49:31,219
But I remember like later on, many months later, I was just I, I wasn't keeping up to date with all that.

495
00:49:31,220 --> 00:49:33,020
I didn't feel like I was an authority on this.

496
00:49:33,710 --> 00:49:40,310
Like, I feel like a lot of people sort of jumped on the bandwagon of being somehow like a science authority on it.

497
00:49:40,310 --> 00:49:46,730
And I, I realised early on that I just, you know, I'm not an epidemiologist, I'm not qualified to sort of comment on many things.

498
00:49:46,730 --> 00:49:52,750
I can comment on the the personal aspect of a fear or apprehension of an unknown vaccine.

499
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:58,280
That's the that was my skill set, that was my expertise. I think that sort of service I had,

500
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:07,849
which I think at the time was important to not have this sort of growing of fear of the unknown vaccine to start at least early on,

501
00:50:07,850 --> 00:50:13,850
to have that sort of a cheerful first experience of first hand experience,

502
00:50:13,850 --> 00:50:21,259
have positive experiences with it to be, you know, reminding people that COVID sucks and that we should be,

503
00:50:21,260 --> 00:50:28,100
you know, the vaccine is a perfectly sensible and reasonable thing to do and and not should be that scary.

504
00:50:29,420 --> 00:50:32,749
And but I think it was a quite a stressful time, all that.

505
00:50:32,750 --> 00:50:39,070
I mean, I was I was already struggling with trying to work from home and having that I just couldn't focus on any work for weeks.

506
00:50:39,980 --> 00:50:49,219
And my wife also found that really stressful. She found that really hard that I she felt like I should have just taken time off earlier on anyway,

507
00:50:49,220 --> 00:50:53,800
just to be sort of taking time out to help her with family and my wife and my son and, well,

508
00:50:53,850 --> 00:51:02,989
just to be able to sort of coach emotionally because we were already not coping before the vaccine happened, it was kind of like a as I said before,

509
00:51:02,990 --> 00:51:12,080
we were hoping for a holiday in Italy, you know, in France and having this lovely time and and like it, you know, that was where we were at.

510
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:17,270
We were sort of now just jumped into survival mode. And I think she was yes, she was quite hurt by all these.

511
00:51:17,270 --> 00:51:20,780
Like I would drop things to do this, these injuries and things.

512
00:51:22,010 --> 00:51:26,659
But in many ways, I was doing these in a way sort of reflect on it afterwards.

513
00:51:26,660 --> 00:51:27,410
We were doing that.

514
00:51:27,410 --> 00:51:34,520
You know, there was an aspect of trying to do good in the world and things weren't going well, but also emotionally I was trying to make sense of it.

515
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:38,750
It's such a weird thing to be just plunged into celebrity.

516
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:47,690
I would say celebrity, but like in a known status where people will see you on the BBC each night,

517
00:51:47,690 --> 00:51:52,250
just in that showreel and stuff, this as a grab or whatever, because of the news or whatever.

518
00:51:53,420 --> 00:51:59,800
And so you would just like awareness. And I think I just was, you know,

519
00:51:59,870 --> 00:52:04,960
trying to process it because it's something that you would normally if you something really weird happen to you while you're,

520
00:52:04,970 --> 00:52:13,310
you know, you're in life. Normally you would have a bit of a joke with all your colleagues and try to humanise and sort of relate to everybody.

521
00:52:13,310 --> 00:52:20,360
And you just you'd find the humour in the weirdness of it sort of, or normalise it and humanise it.

522
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:25,430
But because everyone was stuck at home and separated from everybody, it was very bizarre.

523
00:52:25,610 --> 00:52:34,129
Like I was, I was talking in person with people like reporters and other people and, and I that was my way of relating to the situation.

524
00:52:34,130 --> 00:52:40,070
But it was completely bizarre and I still was trying to make sense of it, this being plunged into it.

525
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:46,460
But also how, you know, you could actually win When push comes to shove,

526
00:52:46,470 --> 00:52:51,330
being able to actually communicates win on the spot, the critical, the important things.

527
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:57,600
And that's kind of the thing that you train. You're taught in science to always go back to the critical.

528
00:52:57,900 --> 00:53:03,719
What is the most important is your body. When you're answering questions in seminars and stuff you could waffle on for ages.

529
00:53:03,720 --> 00:53:11,460
But what is the critical thing? The critical answer You don't want to you want to give what is the important answers to things that is most helpful.

530
00:53:11,850 --> 00:53:18,290
And I think it may be, yeah, I really realise the importance of clear communication of science.

531
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:22,830
That's yeah, you can actually have.

532
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:27,969
It. Yeah.

533
00:53:27,970 --> 00:53:35,670
I had the experience of enjoying the sort of the fruits of effectively years and years of work beforehand to sort of communicate the brilliance of,

534
00:53:35,670 --> 00:53:42,840
of of all those researchers before me. And so, yeah, it was a privilege to be able to talk about it all.

535
00:53:42,870 --> 00:53:50,699
It was quite interesting to see that and speak to the media, to talk to, you know, there's the documentary,

536
00:53:50,700 --> 00:53:57,540
which I don't think I've actually seen yet, so I don't have a licence of the vaccine by Fergus Walsh.

537
00:53:58,890 --> 00:54:03,180
But yes, it was it was a good way to sort of process something that happened.

538
00:54:03,180 --> 00:54:07,620
That was a very bizarre, sort of a slightly bizarre experience.

539
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:11,639
So because I think everyone had a different lockdown experience,

540
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:16,910
everyone had a different COVID experience, and I had a very strange one, slightly getting very.

541
00:54:17,430 --> 00:54:22,170
How how long did the follow up go on? How long were you having to go back and get blood samples?

542
00:54:23,890 --> 00:54:32,410
It's a bit of a blur, but it's something like, you know, it would be the first you'd be like 48 hours in a week, then two weeks than a month.

543
00:54:32,410 --> 00:54:37,180
Then it would be like three months. There'll be six months, then it'll be a year.

544
00:54:37,940 --> 00:54:43,540
Then they would, then they signed us up to get another vaccine and.

545
00:54:45,150 --> 00:54:54,990
And I remember progressively that as the trial went on, my weirdness became less and less like I was just another person or just another participant.

546
00:54:55,830 --> 00:55:01,770
It was only when I got the second vaccine which would turn out to be my first because I was actually a placebo originally,

547
00:55:02,590 --> 00:55:06,400
was that I was able to chat with one of them.

548
00:55:06,420 --> 00:55:09,450
So it was a very nice that just that was a very weird experience.

549
00:55:11,730 --> 00:55:17,740
So yes, it was. Yeah, it is that sort of certainty.

550
00:55:17,740 --> 00:55:22,630
When I first actually got the vaccine that I knew I was going to get the actual vaccine, or at least the second.

551
00:55:23,110 --> 00:55:27,489
Just knowing for certain I was going to get something. I felt like it. So let's just just clarify that.

552
00:55:27,490 --> 00:55:32,830
So you didn't obviously, when you got the vaccine, you didn't know whether you'd got the vaccine or that it's not actually a placebo, is it?

553
00:55:32,830 --> 00:55:37,149
It's a mandate meningitis vaccine. So it's a it is a real vaccine that might make your arm.

554
00:55:37,150 --> 00:55:42,730
So it did make my arm so but not that bad yet. But but not the COVID vaccine.

555
00:55:43,570 --> 00:55:50,620
But as far as I recall, when the vaccines were finally licensed in end of December.

556
00:55:52,410 --> 00:55:54,030
The participants were all asked.

557
00:55:54,980 --> 00:56:03,230
If they I mean, if they were eligible, I suppose if you were that young, you wouldn't have been eligible in the first tranche of a vaccination.

558
00:56:03,230 --> 00:56:07,910
Is that correct? I mean, my question is really when when was it unblinded?

559
00:56:07,910 --> 00:56:12,020
When did you discover that you actually had the meningitis vaccine and not the COVID vaccine?

560
00:56:12,860 --> 00:56:20,490
It was unblinded. Not straight after I got the second, which is actually the first.

561
00:56:22,350 --> 00:56:25,890
So. So you were given another vaccination before you even knew what the first one had been?

562
00:56:26,310 --> 00:56:31,740
Yeah. And with that also, did you know that was a vaccine when you got it?

563
00:56:32,250 --> 00:56:37,080
I knew it was the vaccine when I got it. Okay. Right. And this was around the time when you made it.

564
00:56:37,110 --> 00:56:41,820
There was suspicions of the clotting and everything was potentially happening.

565
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:50,460
But the rollout had begun by that time as well. Presumably, it before it started to.

566
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:59,670
And I, I remember just like it was it was it wasn't that long after I got it that my wife actually got it because we were sort of pushing it.

567
00:56:59,940 --> 00:57:04,850
I remember it was just the extra rollout because my wife wasn't she was invulnerable this,

568
00:57:04,860 --> 00:57:09,750
but it was a very weird thing where she wasn't on this sort of technical proper NHS list.

569
00:57:10,530 --> 00:57:16,349
And so she wasn't on the normal rollout, the NHS. So he has a sort of you sort of had to hunt for the vaccine.

570
00:57:16,350 --> 00:57:25,410
And so we found that there was a the mosques in Oxford had a whole bunch of drop in centres and when she went there it was like.

571
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:30,040
No one was there and she was running a bit late and she was the first one there.

572
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:35,170
It was really depressing how much. There was just not much knowledge of where these vaccines opportunities are.

573
00:57:36,670 --> 00:57:43,749
But yeah, so it was it was kind of a sense of relief when my wife got it more so than mine.

574
00:57:43,750 --> 00:57:54,250
I got it much more. And yeah, in fact, she's got more vaccines than made because she's got she got the Pfizer and the Bivalent I.

575
00:57:55,350 --> 00:57:59,280
I. According to my NHS record, it's all very confusing.

576
00:57:59,670 --> 00:58:10,499
My when in terms of like my NHS record had, I only got two second vaccines, I never got a first technically because I was they blinded.

577
00:58:10,500 --> 00:58:11,970
It is a weird how it was entered.

578
00:58:12,180 --> 00:58:22,799
I have two two and then I had my Pfizer at kind of I say that kind of because I kind of lost my record, which is actually kind of a bit funny.

579
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:28,080
Actually. I got a letter in the mail saying that, Why haven't you gotten a vaccine yet?

580
00:58:29,340 --> 00:58:37,139
Because what happened is that my NHS number was stolen, less taken by someone else and something that supposedly never happens.

581
00:58:37,140 --> 00:58:40,350
That actually does happen. And then the fight to get that back.

582
00:58:40,350 --> 00:58:43,410
And then that means that the person who probably has never got the vaccine,

583
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:47,360
now it looks like that or the first, I just couldn't have all my vaccine recalls.

584
00:58:47,610 --> 00:58:53,970
So I don't actually have a vaccine record anymore. I could I could pretend that I don't and then get another three.

585
00:58:57,910 --> 00:59:00,970
Which, you know, health records are a funny thing.

586
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:08,020
It's just the irony of this. All these things happening, these these things that are very special, weird things happening to me.

587
00:59:09,230 --> 00:59:11,590
So yeah, so that's.

588
00:59:12,580 --> 00:59:19,720
So, yes, I got this sort of the second vaccine and then later on found out that I actually have a C based and I was invited to go back,

589
00:59:21,100 --> 00:59:26,200
I don't know what it was two or three months later to get sick. The third place, the second vaccine.

590
00:59:29,140 --> 00:59:35,709
So, yes, that was the and then I was monitored for about a year or two on a long term study.

591
00:59:35,710 --> 00:59:39,100
So every so often go back and I'm I'm now technically off everything.

592
00:59:39,100 --> 00:59:42,160
So I've I've done this sort of long term monitoring of everything.

593
00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:50,110
And so I'm no longer part of the trial anymore, which I just found a bit weird when I was just finally over, just a bit of a weird sort of chapter.

594
00:59:50,110 --> 00:59:54,400
My life was finished and then that's gone and.

595
00:59:55,460 --> 01:00:04,160
You know, it's just it's just is strange to imagine something that didn't happen wasn't around or available to anyone at one point,

596
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:07,729
but now it's become so part of life and so forgotten.

597
01:00:07,730 --> 01:00:13,340
Also, the impact and the fear of it. The beginning was the the vaccine is just all dwindled away.

598
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:21,799
And, you know, I, I still am amazed that like the gamble that it actually did work, it did pay off.

599
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:23,990
I mean, it could have easily not have worked at all.

600
01:00:25,070 --> 01:00:34,220
And just amazed that like the the hilarity of what a real reflection of science is and the real story, they couldn't hide it that.

601
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:38,830
The confusion of the dosing.

602
01:00:40,090 --> 01:00:45,880
You know, the fact that they thought it was twice as concentrated. So they get diluted in half accidentally that it wasn't actually solid in half.

603
01:00:46,260 --> 01:00:51,190
And then they thought that the half was actually better. But then it turned out is the delay because of the confusion.

604
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:56,829
That was actually the good thing. I just found that's just fascinating and just such an honest reflection of the science,

605
01:00:56,830 --> 01:01:02,950
because normally whenever you do scientific papers or anything, you publish things you can never hide.

606
01:01:03,100 --> 01:01:04,239
You always hide everything.

607
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:09,700
You always hide the truth in terms of what the order of all the sequences, the figures and everything and the story and stuff.

608
01:01:09,700 --> 01:01:16,299
But you couldn't hide this. You can't hide such a big public event and public sort of study that they had to

609
01:01:16,300 --> 01:01:19,570
be honest so you could actually trust them because they didn't hide anything.

610
01:01:19,570 --> 01:01:25,750
They couldn't hide anything. It's just it's a very they were very honest and transparent about the whole process.

611
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:32,950
And I think it's such a nice reflection of making use of in inverted discoveries

612
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:39,820
that I think is that sort of has been a fantastic opportunity to learn

613
01:01:39,820 --> 01:01:43,059
more about the immune system and learn more about vaccines that you would never

614
01:01:43,060 --> 01:01:48,880
be able to do in any sort of trial except for that accident of that delay.

615
01:01:49,550 --> 01:01:54,540
Anyway. We may have still gone down that path of always doing it one month apart, etc.

616
01:01:55,880 --> 01:02:04,220
Instead of the the three months sort of sort of boost up, which is just a fascinating sort of by-products and long term by-products of that.

617
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:13,069
And as it's it's quite interesting to find out about the now and knowing more about the the clotting, about the reasons behind that,

618
01:02:13,070 --> 01:02:17,809
it's just a you would never be able to see that in the trial because it's such a fluke

619
01:02:17,810 --> 01:02:21,860
of an event where your immune system responds to the structure of the virus itself.

620
01:02:21,860 --> 01:02:24,979
And just a coincidence of it's just you wouldn't be able to do it.

621
01:02:24,980 --> 01:02:30,200
So I still think that I still believe what they did was correct, that there was nothing that they could have done to prevent that.

622
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:35,479
And I still think it's a good vaccine, and I think it's a very, very low risk.

623
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:40,760
I mean, it's measurable risk, but it's very it's a very low, isn't it, in terms and compared with the number of people who've had the vaccine?

624
01:02:41,630 --> 01:02:47,900
Absolutely. Yeah, I absolutely agree. And the amount of clotting you get from just COVID itself is much, much greater.

625
01:02:48,830 --> 01:02:53,480
And it was only in Australia which was able to achieve zero COVID at the time.

626
01:02:54,140 --> 01:02:56,930
They were actually afraid of the vaccine because it was a much greater risk than nothing.

627
01:02:57,710 --> 01:03:05,450
But without realising that, you know, trying to impress upon family and friends in Australia that like, you know, the way COVID rolls and stuff.

628
01:03:06,410 --> 01:03:10,490
You get the vaccine, it doesn't actually kick in for like three weeks at least.

629
01:03:11,390 --> 01:03:17,480
You don't know what the whole world can change in three weeks as we found out. These things can happen so quickly, sort of.

630
01:03:17,810 --> 01:03:20,990
It's for these vaccines. You sort of have to always think ahead in that respect.

631
01:03:22,250 --> 01:03:28,290
Always sort of anticipating that kind of how the world is going to change.

632
01:03:28,320 --> 01:03:31,660
You can't know. So.

633
01:03:33,100 --> 01:03:39,610
Yeah, it was it was a strange privilege to sort of see sort of such a momentous sort of translation of

634
01:03:39,610 --> 01:03:46,569
science and this huge impact on the world for something which in many ways is sort of as scientists,

635
01:03:46,570 --> 01:03:49,200
you know, plugging away in the dark and feeling it.

636
01:03:49,420 --> 01:03:57,430
Relatively obscurity might be famous in your field, but relatively obscure and just sort of be plucked into the spotlight.

637
01:03:58,030 --> 01:04:05,439
These these researchers where they're like in many ways, you know, it could have just been any other researcher.

638
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:09,040
It could have been so many other people. That's the brilliant thing about places like Oxford.

639
01:04:09,040 --> 01:04:15,730
There's so many brilliant people not given the sort of the limelight. If we had all this huge attention, they would be also seen to be great.

640
01:04:15,970 --> 01:04:20,080
It's not to diminish them. It's actually to elevate all the other researchers affected.

641
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:24,190
Their whole career has been out of the spotlight and then all of a sudden having to navigate

642
01:04:24,190 --> 01:04:32,170
that sort of that realm of having to be some sort of the having to navigate politics of like,

643
01:04:32,530 --> 01:04:38,169
you know, you have to be careful of how they might be seen to be promoting certain aspects,

644
01:04:38,170 --> 01:04:45,520
especially when it gets political with lockdowns, with other things, and that how that became politicised and then having to be very careful about it,

645
01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:50,649
it's like and then having to also not have to jeopardise their own research program or their own vaccine.

646
01:04:50,650 --> 01:04:58,930
And it's hard. It's like something that you don't really you don't really experience about navigating as a scientist but realising that.

647
01:05:00,050 --> 01:05:10,040
You know. Yeah, it's a it's a strange opportunity and I think it's amazing that they've what they've been able to do with it.

648
01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:14,750
But I think so far, I mean, you've used the word strange and weird a lot.

649
01:05:15,890 --> 01:05:23,550
Knowing what you know now, would you do it again? For me for the signing of the vaccine if there was another COVID.

650
01:05:24,950 --> 01:05:31,100
23. I think you could argue that was the variance, but if there was some sort of like an outbreak and stuff.

651
01:05:33,430 --> 01:05:39,070
Yeah, I probably would. I think we knew enough that it was bad.

652
01:05:40,660 --> 01:05:44,380
I mean you enough that a vaccine was a good idea.

653
01:05:46,990 --> 01:05:50,420
And I would sign up for it again for something like that.

654
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:57,879
I mean, it depends on weighing out for them. I mean, I would. We have so much more advanced vaccine technologies now.

655
01:05:57,880 --> 01:06:04,450
We have more RNA vaccines. We have the chat box. We have all these other vaccine technologies that we have so many options.

656
01:06:04,990 --> 01:06:13,510
I think that there is so much opportunity to scale up more now and there's more ability to now know what is important, to be more flexible.

657
01:06:13,510 --> 01:06:20,470
That I think. I would jump on it if it was an opportunity to sort of protect my family and protect myself.

658
01:06:21,010 --> 01:06:27,879
I don't think you do this in isolation, these decisions. You always do it in weighing up with indecision, with people are impacts.

659
01:06:27,880 --> 01:06:31,570
You are impacted, including your wife and your son and your family and things.

660
01:06:31,570 --> 01:06:38,560
You don't do these things willy nilly, but I think it is I would still have the same response.

661
01:06:39,040 --> 01:06:47,170
And I think and that's because it's a it was an intellectually faith decision based upon the known risks weighing up these things,

662
01:06:48,010 --> 01:06:55,620
putting my emotions aside. You know, there's the emotions of the moment of what happens and everything emotions beforehand.

663
01:06:55,620 --> 01:07:03,780
But I mean, I kind of would have. I it wasn't it wasn't terribly much of a gut decision about being afraid of it.

664
01:07:05,070 --> 01:07:14,180
I kind of. I would be more afraid these days because there is so much more apprehension about being controlled by lockdowns and things that, you know,

665
01:07:14,220 --> 01:07:20,670
the fact that things are spreading so much that I at times I fear if they if we are more vulnerable than we are ever been,

666
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:25,589
that there is always this familiarity that as if it would be like I would just be like tacos and it would be fine.

667
01:07:25,590 --> 01:07:32,070
At some point in the future, they'll get the vaccines. It'll be fine. But yes, I certainly would.

668
01:07:33,130 --> 01:07:37,630
I don't regret the decision at all. And.

669
01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:43,560
I think, you know, it could have been anyone been the one of the first to be vaccinated.

670
01:07:43,740 --> 01:07:45,090
It's just a bit of a roll of the dice.

671
01:07:45,140 --> 01:07:50,280
I'm sure they probably they know that they wanted to have some people with medical experience and they got to buy stocks.

672
01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:53,610
People were able to communicate the science.

673
01:07:53,970 --> 01:07:59,190
I think for that service. I think, you know, in future, I think they would have it would have been better.

674
01:07:59,190 --> 01:08:07,290
And I think they Oxford would be better to equip those participants to be at a sort of communicate and have a more cohesive messaging.

675
01:08:07,620 --> 01:08:12,150
I just decided my messaging, my sort of tact, but that was my decision.

676
01:08:13,260 --> 01:08:21,210
But I know full well that I could have had I had the the, the dangerous opportunity to create fear.

677
01:08:21,930 --> 01:08:27,660
So it's just been our hero in the most mild sense. But then I could have just steamroll the whole thing is such a vulnerable thing.

678
01:08:28,200 --> 01:08:35,999
I think it's it's just strange as an early participant, the sort of the opportunity and danger you have to actually serve those seats of fear.

679
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:46,620
And I think I think in future, if there was one that they should equip and sort of prepare those participants and support them with that, I think.

680
01:08:49,140 --> 01:08:52,290
Yeah, it was, I think. There.

681
01:08:52,410 --> 01:08:58,060
I mean, understandable. They wouldn't have been thought of like they wouldn't have anticipated to have a death threat.

682
01:08:59,260 --> 01:09:03,970
It's just not that thought. All they were worrying about, I was trying to get anticipated this.

683
01:09:04,210 --> 01:09:09,580
The deaf. The deaf, remember, You know, the fake, you know, the rumour of of the day.

684
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:10,440
Yes, yes. Yeah.

685
01:09:10,570 --> 01:09:16,500
I mean, like they're going through all of the, the checks and balances talking to nice or whatever it is, this sort of they have, you know,

686
01:09:16,510 --> 01:09:21,909
the Health Security Agency or whatever it was at the time and then they then the whole world is trying to make

687
01:09:21,910 --> 01:09:28,450
sure they get over the line to injections of someone and then that that they all this marketing sort of stuff,

688
01:09:28,450 --> 01:09:36,189
they realised they needed to help. They got the BBC and stuff, but then the whole like disinformation stuff, I don't think it was really anticipate.

689
01:09:36,190 --> 01:09:42,280
I mean it wasn't they on their radar, it was like who could possibly imagine that they wouldn't be wanting to put to the,

690
01:09:42,860 --> 01:09:47,499
the sort of seemingly positive, really neutral thing of, of a vaccine.

691
01:09:47,500 --> 01:09:51,460
It seemed to be such a pure thing, like why would anyone want to create it?

692
01:09:51,910 --> 01:09:57,010
But I think it just seemed to indeed make a claim that could be so easily disproved in minutes.

693
01:09:58,060 --> 01:10:05,830
I know. And I was so, you know, I was thinking at the time that either this would be a great this I mean, this is going to be like such a deaf.

694
01:10:05,830 --> 01:10:12,639
Now to all these anti-vaxxers, you know, the fact that like this now we don't have huge measles outbreaks.

695
01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:17,379
They don't have these huge, like, you know, diseases in the past and stuff.

696
01:10:17,380 --> 01:10:22,570
And, you know, I can understand complacency that can creep in, but like, you know, suppressing with COVID.

697
01:10:22,570 --> 01:10:29,620
But yeah, I was quite naive how to see how much anti-vaxxers would dig their heels in and actually use as an opportunity,

698
01:10:29,620 --> 01:10:36,700
particularly when it comes to the distrust of government, distrust of people, authority and distrust of authority figures.

699
01:10:37,480 --> 01:10:45,190
And I feel like that was such a yeah, I didn't anticipate how much that would cause people to be really promoting that anti-vax.

700
01:10:45,190 --> 01:10:48,399
I mean, fortunately, I never got any flak from anti-vaxxers.

701
01:10:48,400 --> 01:10:53,830
I mean, the only thing I ever really received was like, what's it called?

702
01:10:53,830 --> 01:11:01,760
Like, you know? A friend of my mom on Facebook going, Oh, that seems like a silly thing to do about me.

703
01:11:02,180 --> 01:11:09,240
My mom would send me or something like that on that. But otherwise, like I've never received any sort of flak about from anti-vaxxers.

704
01:11:09,260 --> 01:11:13,649
I mean, I've I know, I know plenty of people who chose not to get the vaccine.

705
01:11:13,650 --> 01:11:17,100
They were resistant and they they have their reasons why they don't want to give it.

706
01:11:17,120 --> 01:11:20,329
I disagree. But, you know, we can be friends with with friends.

707
01:11:20,330 --> 01:11:21,710
It doesn't affect us. They.

708
01:11:22,220 --> 01:11:29,000
These people can be perfectly reasonable, but there is a certain subset of people who are just it's just so vile and so so fear.

709
01:11:29,000 --> 01:11:37,520
And I feel so sad for those people who are just who on their deathbed would just even glad that they didn't get the vaccine,

710
01:11:37,940 --> 01:11:41,300
just glad that they just they didn't.

711
01:11:41,540 --> 01:11:45,379
They held out and they went to the end not getting it.

712
01:11:45,380 --> 01:11:53,090
And just that sad sort of desperate sort of like, you know, putting their heels in the ground is so sad.

713
01:11:53,210 --> 01:11:56,440
And I, I don't think you can ever really fully counter that.

714
01:11:56,450 --> 01:12:00,319
But what he can counter is that people are a bit, you know, unsure, a bit apprehensive.

715
01:12:00,320 --> 01:12:03,200
It's a needle. You know, I like needles, you know,

716
01:12:04,160 --> 01:12:10,850
just that sort of weighing up of things and just people being aware that this is a good thing is useful thing not to be scared of it.

717
01:12:11,510 --> 01:12:16,790
I think the vast majority of people like that, and that was my experience with people in Australia.

718
01:12:17,120 --> 01:12:21,620
I mean, there was an anti-vax people, but they were kind of very minor, slightly mocked,

719
01:12:22,400 --> 01:12:30,200
they weren't very influential and most people would get around and it got up and did it and there was a very cohesive approach to it.

720
01:12:32,360 --> 01:12:39,530
But I have I feel like there's a lot of missed opportunities of having everyone sort of

721
01:12:39,530 --> 01:12:44,110
the vaccine rollout wasn't wasn't as as as effective as I could have been in the UK.

722
01:12:44,120 --> 01:12:52,880
And I think it's a bit of a shame. And I think that sort of that sort of sad mixed messaging and stuff with it and I think.

723
01:12:54,170 --> 01:13:02,690
That's where I think there was a sort of I feel at times when they're being exposed to so much the media bubbles of Australia and the UK,

724
01:13:02,720 --> 01:13:06,740
they're not exactly the same and they're in these different worlds of perspectives.

725
01:13:06,740 --> 01:13:12,319
And when they had Zero-covid in Australia, there was just two codes that did not exist at all.

726
01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:17,690
And, and, and just that completely somewhat weird about the need for a vaccine.

727
01:13:17,690 --> 01:13:25,909
We just relax and we can just take our time. But I remember when they, when there was that rollout and they all everyone did sort of sign up for it.

728
01:13:25,910 --> 01:13:30,190
It was a it was it was a different attitude, I think, in terms of how to summarise it.

729
01:13:30,220 --> 01:13:37,940
It was a an attitude of collective freedom through the vaccine that there was freedom through collective action.

730
01:13:38,390 --> 01:13:45,800
Whereas I felt at times the British approach was always like, there is individual freedom with vaccine, and there wasn't that sort of collective.

731
01:13:46,770 --> 01:13:56,909
X freedom. There was always this approach of of of freedom for not lockdown and things when they could have been collective

732
01:13:56,910 --> 01:14:02,370
freedom through vaccines and masks and things that could have been such a different sort of slight attitude.

733
01:14:02,370 --> 01:14:04,589
And I feel like now I'm going back to the beginning.

734
01:14:04,590 --> 01:14:14,340
When I said I almost longed for early lockdown, I, I enjoyed that sort of sense of collective action where everyone was involved.

735
01:14:15,390 --> 01:14:20,129
I think it's hard for us to even imagine it that the people would be clapping the nurses and stuff, the sort of the government.

736
01:14:20,130 --> 01:14:25,620
It would be jingoistic. We doing all that stuff where we have this the the how far we've come when it

737
01:14:25,620 --> 01:14:30,750
comes to strikes with the government's approach to the health workers is just.

738
01:14:32,080 --> 01:14:38,110
Yeah. The it has been fascinating to see how much it has changed and society has changed.

739
01:14:38,110 --> 01:14:41,560
And I, I do long for those early days of lockdown, to be honest.

740
01:14:42,460 --> 01:14:52,420
There was a slight sort of hunkering down, almost like a Christmas attitude of of hibernation and and clarity, clarity around what needed to be done.

741
01:14:52,900 --> 01:14:58,990
A sense there was some direction coming from the centre that, yeah, well we should get,

742
01:14:58,990 --> 01:15:05,880
but we should just get back and we should just kind of finish your story. When were you able to get back to your proper work and why difficult.

743
01:15:08,380 --> 01:15:12,790
Well. Well, I think it was quite a long time.

744
01:15:12,790 --> 01:15:17,350
I think I couldn't really get back into actually the lab just because of paperwork.

745
01:15:18,190 --> 01:15:24,339
There's a lot of paperwork and in comes to assuring that there will be this many people in the lab and this many spaces and stuff.

746
01:15:24,340 --> 01:15:31,239
And it was just such a headache just to be able to like, organise that, to make sure that there was social distancing.

747
01:15:31,240 --> 01:15:37,750
And it's so hard to like, predict how long you'll be in a lab experiments, the things that that kind of timeslots is up.

748
01:15:38,080 --> 01:15:44,230
It's very disruptive. And so you had to be very selective about the times you actually got in and what you would actually focus on.

749
01:15:45,550 --> 01:15:49,780
I was really scared not I was scared for many things.

750
01:15:49,780 --> 01:15:56,050
I, I did not want to get the COVID because I knew that if I got sick, I could get COVID and then I wouldn't be able to work.

751
01:15:56,470 --> 01:16:02,560
And I was quite scared because I was on a Tier two contract, which is a visa.

752
01:16:03,370 --> 01:16:07,750
So I knew I if I didn't have work and my contract finished, I would be evicted.

753
01:16:08,170 --> 01:16:11,920
I was scared. What would that mean? I could have go back to Australia.

754
01:16:11,920 --> 01:16:15,999
The borders shut even to Australians who couldn't go back. Would I then?

755
01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:24,370
If I would I be an illegal immigrant, would that mean that I my landlord would be therefore in trouble if they rented to me?

756
01:16:25,210 --> 01:16:36,010
The implications of this, I was feeling really scared and nervous. I, i, I put in the grants just before COVID got amazing feedback.

757
01:16:36,020 --> 01:16:39,999
It got out of hand of six I the external reviewers.

758
01:16:40,000 --> 01:16:43,420
I got six, six and five. I was thinking, Wow, this is fantastic.

759
01:16:43,420 --> 01:16:47,979
I'm going to be right. It's going to be great. I can't comment on what was behind the scenes.

760
01:16:47,980 --> 01:16:53,020
I mean, whenever you see the upside, you always see the your own foibles and things.

761
01:16:53,020 --> 01:16:59,070
You always improve. So I'm not saying it was a perfect grant. But when it came to the committee.

762
01:17:01,990 --> 01:17:09,460
They have to weigh up how these projects would have a national and international impact.

763
01:17:09,790 --> 01:17:19,150
And normally they would be funding bodies, would be awarding things to X, maybe eights and sevens, maybe usually eight out of ten.

764
01:17:19,180 --> 01:17:24,489
This is how they would be ranking things. But in this one, I've never ever seen it before.

765
01:17:24,490 --> 01:17:26,790
But there were like three projects and a ten.

766
01:17:27,350 --> 01:17:37,060
It's now I've never seen it before and it can't have been anything else but a fast tracked Koven research projects in this sort of MRC body.

767
01:17:37,630 --> 01:17:44,500
So when they did, they announced all these new medical research projects, all these medical fundings for the COVID research.

768
01:17:45,130 --> 01:17:50,950
They got to talk about how many millions there are that that billions didn't come from anywhere except for the existing research budgets.

769
01:17:51,310 --> 01:17:56,230
And so it's cannibalising existing funding. So I didn't get that grant.

770
01:17:56,980 --> 01:17:58,420
That would have been a fantastic thing.

771
01:17:58,420 --> 01:18:06,350
It would have been a give me assurance for a few years set me up in terms of actual my career being, I would have been a postdoc on this grant.

772
01:18:06,370 --> 01:18:09,760
So it's effectively almost like my grants and it would have been fantastic.

773
01:18:10,960 --> 01:18:17,050
And so I was then battling with the fact that I would then have only six, eight months left in funding or something.

774
01:18:17,050 --> 01:18:22,630
I was going to have to get out, get some stuff out of my existing contract.

775
01:18:22,810 --> 01:18:33,130
And so we had a back up grant that was had a one year funding that was for one postdoc, my colleague.

776
01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:35,920
And then if it was then going to get extended,

777
01:18:35,920 --> 01:18:44,110
we needed to get certain results out and that was going to be another three years on top of that announced for prostate cancer research.

778
01:18:46,000 --> 01:18:50,020
And so I had to just really like get this results.

779
01:18:50,020 --> 01:18:56,499
I had to be in the lab whenever I could with that and to get the results quick as I could, knowing that I had to balance.

780
01:18:56,500 --> 01:19:01,420
I can't just hogged all the slots in my lab. So balancing that, being able to get it.

781
01:19:01,420 --> 01:19:07,090
So feeling tense and I had to put all my outrage aside because I had to focus areas times in order to survive effectively to get it,

782
01:19:07,090 --> 01:19:15,819
to have salary to stay where I am. And so it's kind of a scary time just having to really, one, not get sick.

783
01:19:15,820 --> 01:19:20,680
So I wouldn't be I thought able had to get the research done in about us to cope.

784
01:19:21,910 --> 01:19:27,670
And so, yeah, it was quite a scary time to be the threatened with homelessness,

785
01:19:27,670 --> 01:19:32,230
effectively threatened with the ability that you wouldn't be able to cope with the research and,

786
01:19:32,620 --> 01:19:36,210
and the opportunities for funding were just few and far between.

787
01:19:36,220 --> 01:19:39,760
The fact that I got extended and we did get at that was almost unheard of.

788
01:19:39,760 --> 01:19:46,750
Like it was completely outside of the normal funding, straight funding cycles where basically all the funding got stopped or extended.

789
01:19:47,500 --> 01:19:52,300
There was no new funds for scientists and a lot of people would have actually dropped out effectively.

790
01:19:52,690 --> 01:19:56,590
Maybe a lot of people got furloughed and extended. I don't think I was eligible for it because I was an immigrant.

791
01:19:57,650 --> 01:20:05,330
Party to Visa. I don't think I was. So I had to keep working and there was no possibility sort of extending it.

792
01:20:06,260 --> 01:20:11,990
So it's kind of a scary point. But fortunately, I was able to get that lift off of that funding to get to the next stage.

793
01:20:13,460 --> 01:20:19,640
But it was fairly tense like it was it was a very uncertain time with that.

794
01:20:21,200 --> 01:20:26,320
And. It's kind of those sort of the products of when there's.

795
01:20:28,010 --> 01:20:34,790
It's easy to see when people, for example, existing researchers, when they lose their jobs, they make a splash.

796
01:20:34,790 --> 01:20:43,459
Right. But what you don't see when it comes to these absence of new funding rounds or new sort of the next step or the new early career research,

797
01:20:43,460 --> 01:20:47,210
France is you don't you don't see what you can't see.

798
01:20:47,240 --> 01:20:53,780
You can't see what could have been or the fact that the there was no funding for

799
01:20:53,780 --> 01:20:57,890
new research as it was existing researchers that would be held out existing.

800
01:20:58,280 --> 01:21:01,159
So there's a whole like, you know,

801
01:21:01,160 --> 01:21:08,310
generation or this little cohort of researchers who had sort of find ways to cope or may have missed out and dropped out.

802
01:21:08,340 --> 01:21:15,380
So these there are actually probably a lot of, you know, casualties of that funding cycle that will never be known.

803
01:21:15,740 --> 01:21:19,340
And very hard to see because no scientist is going to be as bold as being.

804
01:21:19,550 --> 01:21:24,890
I missed out on this grant because of COVID or, you know, I didn't get funded because of COVID.

805
01:21:25,100 --> 01:21:28,370
They can't ever say for sure because you never going to be sure of any grant.

806
01:21:28,850 --> 01:21:35,990
But in terms of this, you know, I myself, I feel as if I would have been affected because of I know that that was prioritised.

807
01:21:36,350 --> 01:21:39,540
I can't escape that. I was able to get a grant.

808
01:21:39,580 --> 01:21:47,720
I'm fortunate in that respect. And now I've got some funding that I've lined up for a fellowship as well.

809
01:21:48,260 --> 01:21:53,930
So I'm sort of I feel as if I'm kind of back on this, back on the right direction.

810
01:21:54,380 --> 01:21:59,160
But I was definitely like. Was in the right direction before.

811
01:21:59,180 --> 01:22:05,669
I was definitely on a much better trajectory. I got a couple of early career awards.

812
01:22:05,670 --> 01:22:09,230
So these these conferences that became virtual during 2020.

813
01:22:09,920 --> 01:22:14,030
So it was a weird sort of. But when you do those things, it's all because of the work in 2019.

814
01:22:14,050 --> 01:22:17,270
So it's not it's sort of I felt like I've been I've lost.

815
01:22:18,370 --> 01:22:25,530
Maybe one or two years. I feel like I'm completely shifted in terms of my career and I'm now getting up to speed with it.

816
01:22:25,540 --> 01:22:33,189
But it definitely has impacted and in many ways is sort of I sort of have to I think I don't

817
01:22:33,190 --> 01:22:38,769
think anyone in science for that sort of perilous sort of career is has been unaffected.

818
01:22:38,770 --> 01:22:42,880
I think everyone's been affected. I think a lot of people are not honest about how much they are affected.

819
01:22:43,210 --> 01:22:48,250
There's a lot of [INAUDIBLE]. There's a lot of bravado and things. But I think everyone has been affected and everyone has a different story.

820
01:22:49,510 --> 01:22:54,070
And it has been. I think some people may have coped better.

821
01:22:55,240 --> 01:22:58,750
I had a young child at home and that was hard.

822
01:22:58,960 --> 01:23:03,010
It's hard to have to focus on science when you have a young child at home.

823
01:23:03,670 --> 01:23:07,060
And that's hard. And so.

824
01:23:08,290 --> 01:23:14,769
Everyone has different stories and stuff, and I think there will be so much studies in terms of sociology and economics

825
01:23:14,770 --> 01:23:20,860
looking at researchers and the impacts on scientists during COVID and disruption,

826
01:23:20,860 --> 01:23:26,890
and that as a fly before some were good, a time to pause and reflect and analyse.

827
01:23:27,400 --> 01:23:32,950
In many ways, it's healthy to do that, particularly when the time is sort of feel the obligation, always get more and more data.

828
01:23:33,580 --> 01:23:40,390
But in many ways that sort of career uncertainty, the funding uncertainty was just exacerbated more and more.

829
01:23:40,780 --> 01:23:47,349
And the most irony of where the whole world was banging on medical research to be the one getting themselves out

830
01:23:47,350 --> 01:23:54,340
of this whole mess is this is the sort of world that is still more perilous than ever in terms of uncertainty.

831
01:23:55,240 --> 01:24:01,260
And so it's sort of. Yeah, it feels a bit conflicted at times when you see.

832
01:24:03,180 --> 01:24:09,630
There is. Everyone can see the value of medical research, but they don't.

833
01:24:11,580 --> 01:24:17,520
They don't see that they want to get that vaccine. They need it to actually fund the medical research for years before the boring aspects.

834
01:24:18,120 --> 01:24:24,419
Deep structural structural biologists. I think I heard once of that the fact that they could actually create these

835
01:24:24,420 --> 01:24:28,319
vaccines because they actually knew how to how to design the spike protein,

836
01:24:28,320 --> 01:24:34,559
which is actually really hard to actually build and constructed in terms of it, except they this one person knew about it many,

837
01:24:34,560 --> 01:24:38,610
many trials and errors that you need to have certain proteins at the base region of it to express it.

838
01:24:38,970 --> 01:24:42,480
And that's the reason why we could have all those RNA vaccines and all those things,

839
01:24:42,480 --> 01:24:46,320
because this one person years ago, probably nobody really knows about.

840
01:24:46,590 --> 01:24:52,010
Probably got no, not not much credit. But that critical step meant that you could actually have these these vaccines.

841
01:24:52,020 --> 01:24:56,940
I mean, there are many viruses we wouldn't be added just click and play like this without that kind of knowledge.

842
01:24:57,600 --> 01:25:04,950
But it's those kind of boring steps that get overlooked. And I feel that I don't feel like we've learned our lesson in that respect.

843
01:25:05,220 --> 01:25:11,480
And I feel like we haven't learned our lesson of what we value in society of medical research.

844
01:25:11,490 --> 01:25:16,410
We have valued personal freedom. I think that's definitely something that was very much emphasised,

845
01:25:16,410 --> 01:25:21,690
and I think that's something that we sort of we were longing for as if it was the what it was before.

846
01:25:21,690 --> 01:25:25,379
But I feel like what it was before with medical research has always parallels and

847
01:25:25,380 --> 01:25:29,670
I feel like it's become more perilous in terms of the certainty of the career.

848
01:25:30,180 --> 01:25:35,580
And I feel like it just feels a bit sad because we have seen the brilliance of it.

849
01:25:36,720 --> 01:25:39,930
So I think, you know, in terms of the long lasting legacy of it.

850
01:25:40,940 --> 01:25:44,540
I definitely see the effect of translational research, the value of it,

851
01:25:45,320 --> 01:25:49,639
but I don't overlook the importance of discovery research because it's those discovery steps,

852
01:25:49,640 --> 01:25:57,470
the boring steps, the fact that money was such a peripheral thing years ago that it was kind of the joke.

853
01:25:57,560 --> 01:26:02,000
I think I think I've ever heard hearing about it's effective. You know, how do you destroy MRI?

854
01:26:02,000 --> 01:26:08,299
And you just look at it, it dies. It just it's so flimsy. It's just the fact that they could define a delivery mechanism to actually get it into

855
01:26:08,300 --> 01:26:11,760
people's arms and hence why they were so afraid of when they were giving the vaccines.

856
01:26:11,810 --> 01:26:17,060
You couldn't walk up stairs. You couldn't you couldn't walk up and down the stand because that will destroy the whole thing.

857
01:26:17,460 --> 01:26:25,220
You know, the fear of that. It's just there's yeah, that's that's how I perceive the science.

858
01:26:25,220 --> 01:26:29,299
I have to I perceive the sort of story a little like I'm conscious of the fact that there's the

859
01:26:29,300 --> 01:26:34,820
boring story and the stuff that and I know that I was sort of receiving in the sort of a pin point,

860
01:26:34,820 --> 01:26:39,020
the pivotal point that I am of the sort of human interest story.

861
01:26:39,020 --> 01:26:42,290
But I was very much conscious of that. There's a lot more scientists,

862
01:26:42,290 --> 01:26:48,260
a lot of things going on behind the scenes that wouldn't get the sort of the the coverage and this sort of opportunity to express it.

863
01:26:48,650 --> 01:26:56,780
And at times, I feel like, you know. How do we as scientists convey that sort of importance to people, to the general public?

864
01:26:57,620 --> 01:27:02,269
Because they're the ones who will vote. They're the ones who promote science.

865
01:27:02,270 --> 01:27:09,420
And at times I'm still that at. I'm still puzzled at times.

866
01:27:11,170 --> 01:27:17,159
I accept. I personally would just like to share the joy of discovery as just share that joy.

867
01:27:17,160 --> 01:27:24,120
And I feel like I as a the vaccine participant, I was able to share that joy.

868
01:27:25,260 --> 01:27:28,799
And I think when people share in that joy, they're seeing it as joy of freedom.

869
01:27:28,800 --> 01:27:33,900
But I was seeing the joy of discovery, the science and seeing how that sort of those solutions.

870
01:27:33,900 --> 01:27:39,240
And, you know, I think everyone sort of approached it differently, even that circumstance, that particular time.

871
01:27:39,540 --> 01:27:46,380
I think my joy in that moment may have been different, what other people have seen of that.

872
01:27:46,950 --> 01:27:55,919
But I think that's something that I would always want, I think would be a good way to sort of how much of that sort of pride of these scientists.

873
01:27:55,920 --> 01:28:01,650
And I think that's definitely what they were trying to do with these royal honours and things with the these researchers.

874
01:28:01,980 --> 01:28:06,959
And they're constantly trying to sort of make sure they have that sort of front and centre of that

875
01:28:06,960 --> 01:28:11,940
opportunity to have that pride of that opportunity for scientists to do good and translation.

876
01:28:12,990 --> 01:28:16,469
But it is a hard story because he had things to do because, you know,

877
01:28:16,470 --> 01:28:22,890
they are that they are at the certain point of the story, they're all the scientist before them and then later the honours.

878
01:28:23,070 --> 01:28:25,860
It's interesting how like more peripheral from them,

879
01:28:25,860 --> 01:28:34,290
they get less decreasing orders and things and it's sort of that they're all part of the story is the same problem we have with Nobel Prizes.

880
01:28:34,290 --> 01:28:38,609
They only give it to the three people when it's like a dozens of people working on the project.

881
01:28:38,610 --> 01:28:44,579
But we keep we keep putting this like pedestal of these scientists as being on the pedestal when really

882
01:28:44,580 --> 01:28:51,180
it's this huge pyramid of stories of of individual researchers plugging away in this in the labs.

883
01:28:51,630 --> 01:29:01,370
That is like the reality of science and. And I find that even then we are tempted when we say retell this story, to overlook them,

884
01:29:01,820 --> 01:29:09,260
overlook those the boring steps, the the technical steps that don't get as much coverage.

885
01:29:10,290 --> 01:29:13,740
But actually they they use those researchers.

886
01:29:14,460 --> 01:29:20,100
They don't necessarily have to have the the final product to see the joy in their work, the individual steps.

887
01:29:20,190 --> 01:29:22,170
I still enjoy the stills involvement,

888
01:29:23,100 --> 01:29:33,210
but it is exciting to see that when scientists are all put together and promoted and sort of and and given the resources to get on with their work,

889
01:29:33,990 --> 01:29:35,640
it's just exciting to see that.

890
01:29:36,120 --> 01:29:44,879
And in Spain, I'm quite fascinating to see what will happen in the future if academic research becomes more almost corporate in that respect,

891
01:29:44,880 --> 01:29:52,000
that we have more of a team approach moving away from these pedestal people, these sort of weird ego.

892
01:29:52,680 --> 01:29:56,850
Not to say that those researchers are egotistical or anything. I'm just saying the structure is science.

893
01:29:56,850 --> 01:30:03,899
Is it places too much on the personality of one person or a person or the one as

894
01:30:03,900 --> 01:30:08,120
if they're the one group leader and stuff when really it's it's is and a team.

895
01:30:09,120 --> 01:30:13,199
That's why else I love the fact that it was the the vaccine team, the Oxford vaccine team.

896
01:30:13,200 --> 01:30:19,799
It was it was academics working together And I always love collaborative research and being able to

897
01:30:19,800 --> 01:30:27,270
see to working together as a team because it's you get to share the joys together and the lows,

898
01:30:27,270 --> 01:30:35,579
but you hopefully get to pick each other up. But it was great to see that it's a collective team and hopefully people were able to see that sort

899
01:30:35,580 --> 01:30:41,580
of the products we have give scientists resources and the ability to sort of feel comfortable,

900
01:30:41,580 --> 01:30:47,180
to be able to not have to was. Claw each other to get at these sort of positions.

901
01:30:47,180 --> 01:30:50,450
And there it is, slightly competitive but actually be working together in these classes.

902
01:30:51,390 --> 01:30:54,110
That's great. No, I think so. To finish.

903
01:30:54,650 --> 01:31:02,180
I'm kind of a sort of I don't know, is a rambling there, but I sort of I feel like, you know, it it does sort of make you it has been a.

904
01:31:04,540 --> 01:31:12,010
Yeah. It has been a big moment. My life in a manger. And then I sort of reflected a lot on how what I do, what I continue to how I go.

905
01:31:12,340 --> 01:31:19,360
I won't be the same researcher since I will always be slightly different, slightly motivated.

906
01:31:20,170 --> 01:31:28,810
I always have that sort of weird anecdote. It's always useful to bring up, but also it's just a it's a way of.

907
01:31:30,560 --> 01:31:37,820
And connecting with people. And I think that is something that scientists do find hard to connect with people.

908
01:31:37,820 --> 01:31:41,540
But this was a particular point where we all were connected and very clearly.

909
01:31:43,200 --> 01:31:46,230
Very good. Very good. Great. I'm going to start recording now.