Okay. Could you just start by saying your name and what your current position is?
And also tell me what the position was when you were in the biomedical engineering department.
So I'm Chechen. She can call me Jane, and then now I'm a seal at a classroom cell limited.
And before, when I was working in the coffee project, I was a postdoc in Abbey.
Okay, that's great. And yeah, I mean, I'd like to hear more about you and about how you got to where you are now.
So if you'd like to take you through. How did you first of all, how did you decide that science or engineering were going to be your career?
So I think ever since I was a child, I've always had a passion about science.
My parents. So my dad is a physics professor and my mom is a teacher.
So they kind of exposed me with science quite a lot and I found it interesting as well.
So that's kind of like, go on the path. And where did you grow up?
In Taiwan? So I only come to the UK for my Ph.D.
Yeah, in 2013. So now is about ten years ago.
Yeah. So I think and then I think alongside the passion, I always wanted to do something contributing to the society,
like partly also because of my parents are teaching and in contributing themselves quite often as well.
So I think that kind of just formulating myself to go on the science pathway or originally thinking to stay in academia,
but actually called it and this project kind of helped me transition to a completely different career path.
Well, we'll get to that later. Let's stick with what happened before.
So what did you study at undergraduate level? So as biomedical engineering.
So I more focusing on the cell biology site.
And so I've done quite a lot of research in stem cell bio materials, trying to use different new biomaterials or stem cell for cell therapy.
And so was still that I was still back at your undergraduate.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you were already doing that? Yeah. Oh, right.
Like, I think for the first year we have like two years research project, so I'm already doing a lab and then kind of expose myself serious topics.
Okay. Yes, yes. And to a kind of basic research environment is okay.
Yes. Yes. So in addition to just coursework, I also joined a lab already in my third year.
In my second year, I join an Asian content petition.
So it's like a genetically modified circuit competition.
So people just get to have different novel ideas and then you can design the gene circuitry in different organisms and also do it by yourself.
And then there's like exhibition of what you can do with all this toolkits and then how that can be used for real world application.
So that's one of the competition. The first thing that fall under the heading of synthetic biology.
Yeah, that's like biology. So that's also, oh, although like during my undergrad, the main project that I'm working on is stem cell,
but I kind of get a bit sense of synthetic biology and molecular biology as well.
Mm hmm. Very interesting. And how did you come to choose to come to the UK for your Ph.D.?
It's also kind of luck, I guess.
It says I applied to ten U.S. University and one university here because that's
the only scholarship line it managed to fight between Taiwan and Imperial College.
So, yeah. And then while I'm waiting for all the other admission of I got the offer first
for the UK one and I feel like maybe that's something that I to come here.
And then also the professor that I'm working with, Molly Stephens, she's really one of the pioneer in the field, so I kind of just come here.
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And what was the topic of your Ph.D. is about neuro differentiation.
So I use different type of biophysical stimuli, for example, electrical stimulation, mechanical or even topographical.
So different morphology of the substrate and so on to see how that affects stem cell differentiation.
So, for example, the phone one might make your stem cells more prone to differentiate into neurones,
while the hotter one will be more for bone differentiation because that correlated to what the environment is.
And then, yeah, so I try to understand like how different will it affect them and also the mechanism behind it so that we can fine tune it later on.
So that's kind of my whole thing. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds really interesting.
And. And then was there a post, a post op position advertised here at Oxford?
How did you come to or did you have connections with the Oxford Group while you were still at Imperial College?
It's also so I browse across like different posts and then so I found one post like the one that I applied to is kind of industrial post up.
So it was funded by a company that Professor Tay is collaborating with.
And, and I found it very interesting because like I've always wanted to do research,
but I've never really get the chance to push research towards real world application.
And then biomedical engineering in general is trying to bridge that to different worlds.
So I found this one actually fit my original thoughts quite, quite a lot.
And then I applied to Professor Trace Group, and then after I submitted the application,
I later on learned that actually my PI also got connections with Professor.
Well, I think not so sorry about the other PI called pi in the green as well.
So yeah, you kind of all link up. And what was the project that you were originally that you originally came to to work on for the Post.
My Yeah. That one is also for neuro engineering.
So is kind of like making different type of biomaterials for neural repair in general.
And then another such project is having the individual model for brain like drug screening for brain diseases or for brain injury.
So they are like two different. It's kind of more or less similar, but it's basically the same and use for different applications.
Yeah, So what it sounds like and this is very interesting, this crossover between engineering and life science,
that you're taking living cells and and treating them almost as mechanical more than mechanical electrical components.
Um, and,
and really testing them at an engineer wood to see how they behave under different circumstances and how other environmental factors impact on them.
Yeah, Yeah. I think what I felt like particularly interesting is we all think that physical stimuli could be very well.
S For me, I'm one of the life science people, so I always felt that you'll be, you know,
quite organised, quite standardise, whatever input you get, that there's an output.
And then we always feel like biology or life science, there might be more, um, things that is unpredictable.
But the more that I dig into that, the more that I actually find life science like life as it is.
It's just amazing because it's also responds to the stimuli in a way that although not exactly the same,
but because of a hundred million things behind it, and then you regulate it itself and then the output actually comes to be in the same direction.
So for example, my neurone and your neurone might not be the same, but they still responds to the same stimuli in a similar way.
The way that it connects itself might be different, that there's a mechanism that everybody follow to make sure that that you go towards that route.
Although the connection might be slightly different, but it's just amazing to see how it can get everyone towards the same place
because they are all a lot of trivial mechanism and like circuits behind it.
But it's all fine tuned so everybody can get to this stage, right?
Right. Yeah. So it's a question of really understanding the very, you know, the multiplicity of environmental stimuli and the,
Yeah, the environment in which the neurone is trying to develop and grow.
And once you understand all that you can see how it harmonises all those things.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really good. And so I think we're No, no, we're not yet.
So tell me a bit more about Professor Traits Group because it's, I mean there's a lot of different projects going on.
Yeah, but one of the things that's very interesting is that he's set up a couple of collaborations with Chinese institutes,
and that was something that you, you also got involved with working on.
Tell me a little bit about that. Yeah. So I think Professor Space Group is a very nice environment because.
It's very like everybody work on different projects and everybody coming from different backgrounds.
Some are more materials, some are even physics and some are biology.
And then when people come in together having different knowledge, there are a lot of stimuli.
When we're like, well, pumping out, when we are just having daily conversation and so on.
So I think that environment is definitely supporting us to grow and even extend our research answers to all different aspects.
And then I think the collaboration between China or some even other groups in the UK or around the world is also really nice.
So you can see well, mainly utilise the resources across different groups and then also make the research
I think interesting because you see how you don't need to do everything by yourself.
You use your strengths and then collaborate with people who already got the, the, the capability to process certain experiments.
And then you just make the research very efficient. You don't need to spend a lot of time putting a lot of efforts on getting to a certain stage,
and then you can still see your project flourishing in the same way.
But you personally had a project manager role with one of it.
Was it Bridget? She said that about that the second year of my postdoc.
So I take on the project manager role for Geechee, and then that's also to tell us what she was, all of us, what Geechee is.
So you spell it out to it's a jungle. Sue And well, it's been a while so I don't know exact way, but I think it is the Research Institute of Jiangsu.
Jiangsu. Industrial XI Training.
Industrial Technology Partnership Institute.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean Jiangsu Industrial Technology Partnership Institute.
Yes. So yeah. So that's a that's a Chinese and higher education institution.
Research institution. Yeah. I think that it's not just well it's yeah, it's a global move on the research institute.
Yeah. And then they are trying to bridge the research in China to different well other research
institute across the world and then particularly focusing on industrial partnership.
Yeah yeah. And then there was a specific joint project called Impact.
Oh yeah. Yes that's, yeah. So we got the Impact Institute here that I think funded a couple of,
of Oxford University's research in physics, biomedical engineering as well and different aspects.
And then at the time when I joined, I think there's only one project that is by Professor Dunlop.
I think it's done a lot. Someone could recall a new face.
Not to worry. I can look it up later. Yeah. Yeah. So he was one of the leading professor in, like, there's only one project.
But by the time I joined, I tried to set up another research.
Cole So there is like £900,000 of research funding invested by Geechee.
And then we have like an open call for all people in the university.
That was a very nice experience because we had kind of have the two conference one here and the other one in China hosted for this research call.
And then also to reach out like the researchers here in the UK and also researches in in China and them.
I think it's quite nice because it's a open call for different fields.
So there are people from everywhere joining.
But also when we go to when we went to China, we can also see the culture difference in terms of how we do research,
how we think of the same thing, and then that's definitely one.
Then I know some forget voice overs.
And how did you come to decide that that kind of project management role was going to
be something that would be interesting for you as well as your own lab based research?
I think at that time in person that was actually Professor Play asked me if I would be interested.
And then that role is part time. Yes, I am part time, Yes.
Yeah. So it's kind of for me to have a chance to still work on my project.
But at the same time, I like to see what else are there.
And then again, it's a kind of a management role for between industry and academia.
And then there's something that I am always interested in to just try to see how research can become reality.
Like, although I had a post up post that's kind of collaborating with the the company that's funding the project, but still there is.
I think it could be also because of the essence of my research.
It's definitely taking a lot longer time to realise because this neurone brain injury type of thing.
So I still haven't really get the chance to see, oh, I can actually make a product or how the product actually be in real life.
And then that's why but I also kind of jumping in support of that role.
Mm hmm. So let's finally arrive at COVID. Can you remember where you were?
I've asked all my interviews. When you first heard that there was a serious respiratory illness coming out of Wuhan, China, and that it might.
Yeah, it might. And when did you come to realise that it might become globally serious?
There's actually quite interesting. So I remember that in early December, that's actually the conference that I mentioned.
Oh, yes, A bunch of us actually travelled to China for, for the conference, for the second conference, which that team is that it.
That's in Jiangsu. And then so probably that's why that we haven't been.
Well early December, I don't think it's the time there's a huge outbreak just yet.
But just before then. And then by the time that I fly back to the UK.
And then I started to get a lot of message, like from family, friends, like, everything's okay.
I got it. And then actually, I, I completely missed that part because I just flight back and then not realising there is an outbreak.
The by the time that we sold the news and then that's something that I started to be like, Oh, this could be serious.
And then I actually just missed that. Otherwise I might be locked down in China was very, very long time.
So it's kind of like a, a strange feeling because you're quite close by and then you didn't realise it until the flight back.
Yeah. Yeah. Ooh. And when did the people in your lab realise that there was a problem arising as the pandemic reached the UK,
that there was a problem that your skills could be used to to address.
I think I remember as more Professor 21 day, even in I think that's around the Chinese New Year time actually,
and that if February and January or early February, I think at that time,
especially in January and then I just got his message or phone call, I can't recall.
They said basically grouping a few of the people in the group and then just kind of have a brainstorming session together saying that,
oh, well, this is something urgent.
And then he got this idea, and then also with Professor Huang as well,
they kind of already discuss and think that my background might be able to help with this project.
And then do you like to join this, you know, emerging research group?
And then at that time I just found it well, partly because this is a disease that is causing quite a huge impact at the moment.
And so definitely happy to you to see if there's anything that can help.
And second, also, I think at that time, University has already decided to shut down all the facilities.
So if you don't work on anything related to to COVID, you actually couldn't wait.
So there's kind of like all different things combined together by thing, really,
when Professor told me about that is like the project itself is very open, so is like what you can do to help.
Hmm. And then, and then people starting together.
And I remember it's also in this room like a 7 p.m. pretty much every day.
We have, like, a group meeting all together. Well, then the group meeting and the group who participate in this project,
we kind of just brainstorming, troubleshoot, and professors are buying KFC nearby.
And then it's just growing ideas, trying to like really push the research to have certain outcome as soon as possible.
Because we all know that the time is quite precious.
The longer that is struck, then the the worst that that the disease might be.
So that's kind of like the urgency I can. Yeah, it's.
It was, I would say, definitely exhausted, but it was excited.
At the same time, you just feel like you're actually doing something.
And then because the time is quite urgent and then you see the results kept coming out, you also feel like you're progressing every single day.
And then the thing is, working together as a whole team from different disciplines.
The the conversation, this dual elation between people is also quite inspiring as well.
So what was the problem that you were setting out to solve? And then we'll talk about how the technology worked to solve that problem that was there.
So we are trying to see whether we can detect COVID.
So it's a diagnostic more a diagnostic pathway.
So at that time, really all there was available was PCR testing.
Which was, you know, could take 48 hours to get a result.
Yeah, a bit longer. And also that you might need more complicated equipment as well because they're different thermal cycle.
And then I think a lot of the time is like especially in China, the resources might not be able to get into such certain area.
And then that's also the tricky bit as well. So you were thinking all the time about reaching communities that wouldn't have access to high tech labs.
Yeah. So I think the goal was really how can we do tests as fast as we can and also as many as we can in a very short period of time?
Yes, it's kind of minute to minute target, because the more that we test, the more then we can prevent it from spreading.
And we have to remind people that even anyone listening to this, that at that time in early 2020, we didn't have lateral flow tests.
And we we now we've all now had so many so thrown away so many lateral flow
tests that you forget that actually for almost the whole of that first year,
we didn't have lateral flow tests. So there wasn't a quick way of establishing whether or not somebody was infected.
So so there was a great need for something that could do the job more quickly.
MM Yeah, Yeah. Or at that time, because it's a very early stage, some of the tests hasn't been wi fi as good.
That's true. Yeah. Yes. Yes. So tell me, first of all, explain that technology to me.
How does it work and how did it differ from the existing PCR test?
So it's called LAMP. So is it mediated amplification?
Well, isothermal amplification. So basically, the primer design is different.
So they have like specific loop primers. Well, now we're going to need to explain.
Oh, what do you mean by a loop of primer? So what do you say? Maybe I'll just get back to what are the key difference?
Yes. So as it's isothermal amplification, so is only one single temperature.
So while it's only neat1, the PCR in general and multiple thermal cycle.
So you need to get down to about 90 degree and then jumping down from the primer to a
new so or different temperature that will require more complicated like equipments.
To be able to do that well, you have to do it and then cool it and then heat it.
Yes. And then for lamp in general, it's just one and then the time is also different.
So the primer design, although PCR also need to have a primer design.
So the prior the primer is a little piece of DNA or RNA.
So it's a DNA. DNA, Yes. So the target is the RNA viral, which is in the virus.
What you're trying to detect is the viral RNA. Yeah. And then we use the DNA.
Well, very small DNA sequence to target the gene target they wanted to do for PCR.
We only have a pair. So T Palmer's forward and backward to get a specific region.
Well, the lamp, we will have minimal two pairs.
So the way that is design is ones that get to the target region.
The other pair will also be able to form certain structures.
They can amplify the amplicon itself,
so the results will be you will start to target all different outcomes and then that results
in faster amplification compared to PCR is always only targeting the original well,
the same piece of the template and well, the other one you could have multiple different forms of the template after Simpson amplification.
And then that results in a higher, well, faster amplification and amplification, which has an amount of it.
So the amplification sorry if I'm sounding a bit stupid about the amplification, it means that does that mean that the RNA is actually multiplying?
Yes. Yes. So you're getting more and more and more that and you get a kind of a chain reaction, really, which is.
So, yeah. So basically, after Primus gets in that thing starting to amplify.
And then we started to get a lot of the the different type of ethanol.
Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. And then for them, so for PCR in general, people are using fluorescence signals.
So it's they are using a fluorescent dye. So that will targeting double stranded DNA.
And then we ret by fluorescence detector. And then that again is a more complicated equal than because you need it for us since we do it and so on.
For them, there are multiple ways for reading all the results, so they are like a chain directly by colour change.
That's because of the page. A difference. Well, more applications during the amplification.
So that's kind of the the indicating with the we are using is we know, right.
So when there's amplification the colour will change from pink to yellow because the pitch drops.
Did you say phenol. Red. Yellow. You said yes. And then that's how we kind of detect it.
And then there is also different ways you can starting to see the colour change from transparent to a little bit white.
So is a turbulent tapestry. So you kind of detecting that in and then they have to position and you can detect it as well.
But our test is mainly focusing on the colour nature because it's very easy to read.
And then also you don't really need a lot of training.
People can understand the concept and the full workflow easily.
And so did you have to start by doing some kind of proof of principle that this, this technology would, would work with COVID?
And, and so did you have to collaborate with people who were actually dealing with sick patients to get samples,
or did you use genetically engineered coded DNA for testing?
So initially we were when we were kind of going on, we definitely have to well, the first proof of principle is we do the synthetic DNA fragments.
So that's exactly the same as what we designed to target.
And so that's a first step. The second step, we order quite a few synthetic RNA.
So people do have well, some is commercially available.
They are like the full genome of the virus, different virus strings.
And then we use that as proof of principle. And then our difficulty at that time is, after all of this proof of principle experiments,
we can't really get a hold on clinical samples because especially at that time, I think in the UK there on that many cases, no just yet.
And then that's how the Oscar kind of supporters are running a lot of clinical trials there in China.
I see. So Oscar let's we haven't talked about Oscar. This is another collaborative research institute the research centre in China.
Yeah. So I think is through universities and Research institute is in such a way as well.
And then yeah, that's, that's another initiative of Professor Tsui.
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And then I think that's a very, is also quite exciting because we finally managed to get to really the front line.
Yeah. These days on our research. And also I think the speed is really surprising at that time because usually from like for clinical trials you
probably need to fill in a lot of forms getting all the exam like review and so on to finally get the samples.
But because of the urgency in China,
we actually managed to get maybe I think initially just 21 single hospital that that is already quite a lot of samples for us at that time.
And then and then we have the first paper published based on all the results.
Which month did that come out to that. That's I think in April or May.
Oh that's very so yeah, it's a very quick I think yeah.
Pretty much every single day we stay here until. Seven or eight.
And also during weekend. But we all know, like there's a certain objectives we wanted to achieve and then the goal we wanted to achieve.
So I think it's not it's a striving ourselves that's not, as I say,
they're not like pushing us on something is more like we know that that's urgent and they wanted to get it out as soon as possible.
Yeah. And how well did the test before? I think it's in the sensitivity for the nuclear Assam one is them reaching 98% sensitivity.
Very high. Yeah. So it's kind of comparable for Q PCR.
That's definitely a plus for our test, you know, And the specificity is similarly.
Yes. So, so 98, you're saying, you know, so it's not too many false positives?
No, not too many false negatives. Yeah. Yeah.
And at what point did you need to get a commercial partner to turn it into something that could be applied practically and marketed?
So I think around that time, like when we finish all approval principal experiments and then we have B,
c, C, and come to Oxford University to interview us.
And then by the time the news release and then we started to get attention and
then there are a few commercial partners started to reaching out to professors,
say, or to me or the team members, and just to see what collaboration opportunities there is.
And then that's how we started doing. Yeah, testing and helping people to test our test kit, how to make it a real product and so on.
And I think probably and Professor, always at the start,
well one of the start off we're professor is called Mr. and Mr. at that time also supports quite a lot of product side of things like really
making sure the research fellow are doing experiments that were running can be easily translate to later on the product development.
Yeah. Mm hmm. And at what point did you actually form the company and Oxford?
I think it's in. I might need to double check the company.
I was, but I think it's end of August. I think that's the time that we all sit down and professors, we,
I think as professors and really discuss with the university to speak now this company and
by that time he group everyone we are thinking about what's our product name and so on.
Like what's what our different product format that we are going to offer.
But the, the key thing at that time is he will all the team members are right of Yoshio postdocs.
And then also I think in the beginning of this project we are all just thinking about how to,
you know, contribute to the world in a short period of time for not really making profit in anything.
So we kind of all gather and then we all know that it's gonna be a social enterprise.
None of this is going to be generating revenue and so on.
And then that's all like when we are discussing for you what we are going to put as product offering is mainly.
Just to put it. Oh yeah. Yes. Right. Yeah. Just so that it's available.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then that's quiet.
Yeah. I think it's really exciting to actually go through the full process and know that your test kits are actually being usable.
And I guess, I mean, that was my next question that, that they were actually taken up and used, uh, in real life.
But tell me about that. Where were the main places that were using your your tests, say, well,
definitely airports are one of them and then they on only I don't really know how we
kind of connected with pre networks but basically fanatics later on acquired it.
I think they also probably get the news and reach out to the University of DC and that was a Hong Kong based.
Yeah. There's a whole device, medical device company or a diagnostics company.
Yes. And then they also have the subsidies in, in the UK.
Oh yeah. So is do they fit I think is DNA fit acquire opposite but the whole thing is Oh print it.
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And then they have some testing sites at the airports or actually different places for it to fly.
So you don't need to go to the airport to do the testing. You can do hotels and home collection and so on.
So we collaborate with them. And I remember that's also quiet,
forgettable experiences is we actually need to be on site to train all the technicians how to do the tests at the airports.
And then just to make sure that workflow, I'll find the way they run the test, firing troubleshoot and so on.
Yeah. And you were involved in that way. You did? Yeah. So how many airports did you have to go to?
Yeah. And that's why we are running.
Well, I was meaning staying in Heathrow at that time, but we do had people to go to Manchester and then Gatwick Luton,
I think there are five London City also there are five airports in London and then Manchester as well.
And then there's also a few sites in like Skye or Disney now, so using our kids.
So that was all towards the end of 2020 when the the first big wave was over or did it go or not?
Because there must have been a time I could never remember exactly when the lateral flows of that test started coming in.
But okay, there must have come a time when the demand for PCR tests or did did the airlines always require
a higher standard of test than you could get from a lateral flow thing in the very beginning?
Well,
some of most of the airlines that are that were initially target is either the flights to Hong Kong or Asian countries which require higher standards.
But I think later on, pretty much all the countries also joined the testing as well.
And then that's around that time, I think.
Yeah, end of 2020.
I think that's when when we kind of regularly communicated to the analysts to support all the testing and then teaching and or sites set up.
We also like literally filled the labs into this frenetic time by just trying to set things that set up everything in the airport the day before.
So still got all the water dripping down and then the next.
So we need to make it a full cleaning. And yeah, that was unforgettable.
And also teaching all the technicians, like some of them were like fresh under graduate and they're not really that experienced,
but we really need to teach them and train them in a very short period of time to make sure all the tests are up to standard.
Yes. So that's also quite challenging. Yeah, exciting. Wow.
And do it. By this time you were were you? Because at some point you moved across to essentially be an employee of Oxford rather than.
Oh yeah, continuing. So when did that happen?
In 2021, February. And then my post in Oxford University ends and then, well, actually morning I kind of mentioned.
Professor Twain mentioning that I'm thinking to explore more industrial roles because after doing this accent project,
but at the time, yeah, I have enjoyed the company well, but I feel very interesting how the full product development cycle works.
And then I wanted to do more. So I told Professor, So you're saying that, Oh, I don't want it to continue my post as a postdoc.
I wanted to explore different thing. And then professors was super supportive and, and actually asked me, Oh,
there's actually a position in Oxford and then things that it would be a nice
fit because in a way I'm also leading on the product development as well.
So if asking if I would like to join and then I think at that time is really the whole project, I bet the whole team think the same,
it's our baby and then it's already here and then we really want to see what's the next set and then how it would turn out.
So that's why that I moved to Oxford after.
Yeah, after the posting in the university.
And what, so what remained to be done at that point?
What were the tasks ahead of you as to as you went ahead with the product development at that stage?
Because by that time you already had the tests up and running in the in the airports, what what needed doing in Oxford, What was that?
So that's also so I think during the COVID period there are a lot of urgent tests
somehow was pumping through and or dragging the whole team to different direction.
So um, so training and setting up the airport site is one.
And later on actually because of the demand increase quite a lot during that time, Oxford also set up a few testing sites like on on our own as well.
And then by setting up the sites and all the doing all the testing,
there's regulation coming in saying that you need to be accredited to do all this test.
So we have put a lot on the set up with the quality management system and all the testing
site to make sure we fulfil all the standards that is set out by the government guideline.
So you had a lot of documentation work to do,
but also the actual implementation work to make sure that all operation aspect is fulfilling the Government's agenda.
So that's one big chunk of work that we need to make sure that we are adhering to all the government standards.
And the other side is what will be the next step. So now we are focusing on quality, although it's not yet gone,
but we need to think about maybe there will be another pandemics while other infectious diseases are very important,
but we still haven't managed to resolve it or manage to prevent the spreading of it.
So that's another site that I'm involved in as well, like the product development for other critical infectious diseases.
And then at that time we were thinking about other respiratory disease like flu is quite critical.
And then how especially after COVID come out, how we differentiate flu or COVID or ICB and different things.
So that's one of the focus that we are looking into. And there's of course, a lot of the sexually transmitted diseases.
There's also a neat there. And then the idea for respiratory tests is more on public health before as high as we are more thinking of,
perhaps people want it to have more privacy. So they actually wanted to run it at home and how we can improve our tests to make
sure that is even more decentralised and then you can even bring it to people's home.
So that's kind of like different product line that we were running at that time.
And you stayed in that post until August last year, is that right?
August Yeah, Yeah. In August, yes. And now same cell.
Yeah. Where you are now is another professor to AIDS babies do you.
Yeah. So in August that's kind of already the time I think COVID started to get thing everybody's getting
back to normal and then the division of COVID is definitely not as high and then frenetic.
They also restructure the company to focusing on different side of the things.
So that's how I feel. The original baby is no longer what I thought it looks like.
And then so I was looking into other transition and then the C is actually not the professor's telling me of all this opportunities.
Actually, the CEO of Things l reached out to me at that time because how long has himself been going.
And that's I think is is starting in 2020.
Mm hmm. Uh, in. Think.
I think, uh. Yeah. 20. 20 August.
Right. Jamaica. Around that time. So at that time is two years, but.
Yeah. And, and, but it also spun out of research that had gone on in Professor twice.
So is mentally professor. Oh. One group. Yeah.
Yeah. So is mentally on using, uh,
like synthetic biology to genetically modify the bacteria ourselves to make it genome free and then use it for different health care applications.
And then, yeah, so basically this will see you'll reach out to me asking me if I would be interested in stem cells.
And then let's I'm originally making mentally looking into the quality management
aspect because I've got some experience on setting up the QM as in Oxford and,
and also product development side of things. So that's kind of how I know same cell.
And then I found stem cell interesting because you kind of get back to my original Yes.
Biology. Yeah. Is more is biology but also using it for treatments or therapeutics or vaccines even.
So that's actually going back to my original research interests.
So that kind of like grant my attention, my lot.
And then also setting up the quality management system for product development is also something that I always wanted to look into as well.
And then actually there are well, most of the people in STEM Cell is also the original group that we work in the very beginning for this project.
So we all know each other very well as well, especially it's kind of like this super period of time, the period of time,
you know, bettering everyone and then doing things super efficiently, trying to achieve the goal that we set up.
So I really enjoy working with everyone during that time.
So that's why that I later on join himself.
But you're not working seven till midnight, seven days a week and well,
it is needed but is mainly, I think most of us is more like driven by our cell.
There's nothing like, Oh, we need to do whatever. But you just found it intriguing and trying to see, Oh, what's the next step?
Like how, what's the results and so on. And then that's something I think we feel ourselves, I guess.
Yeah. So, yes, I mean, I'd like to talk a little bit more about your and you've talked a little bit about this already,
but how working through the pandemic impacted you on you personally?
I mean, first of all, did you how threatened did you feel by the virus itself, by the possibility that you might get sick yourself?
I think at that time, Well, indeed, Originally I wasn't that worry.
But when your family starting to checking on you, trying to time your friends,
checking on you time to time and when you know there's nobody else on the street except for you.
And then when you meet people, of course, we are going to be cautious. And so and I remember because we were running quite a lot of experiments.
And then at that time, we are always talking about we need to wash our hands very often and so on.
And I remember like because of clothes and so on, we actually like my hands are actually bleeding, but probably just not me,
like probably the rest of the team or other people doing a lot of weight or even people in the hospital or definitely the same thing.
Because when we are when we peeled off the glue,
you just kind of when you think time it is getting very dry because we keep washing your hands and so on.
Yes. So I think that's when some people have a bad reaction to latex is, Oh yeah, like you just don't feel.
So I think that's probably the time that it actually hits me like, although I don't think it might be that serious.
The what I'm doing is actually already, you know, following that thing.
Yeah. And then that's probably the time.
And then I guess the other thing is when we went to the airports, we are really exposed to the first to the frontline.
Yes. And then the urgency of, for example, if we do see a positive samples, how we are gonna deal with it and then yeah, I think so.
Did you have to wear a lot of PPE when you went. Yeah. We fully going up and then using a 95 and then making sure everything is sterile was.
Yeah. And I remember there's also one time I think one of our team was I think probably because it just too tired because it's quite intense work.
And then they were coming down from Oxford,
bringing all the mass medicine and everything by something for us to make sure that we are all flying on the flights.
And yeah, I think the airport is probably really the time that you feel the most because it's real.
You see the passengers out there. And then I remember very clearly like when the testing flight, like it passed a certain time.
So we need to close down and then there's two or a family of the passenger actually knocked the door,
the glass door, and then really crying and half begging, saying that, oh, we really need these tests.
Otherwise, like it's been a while, then we can go back home and so on.
And then you just feel like it's real life and then there's really a need there.
And then how many people actually this and how I think that's kind of like the struggle between you.
You are in the frontline and then you are probably worry about your house.
I thought bit, but there's actually a lot more neat that you can even support them.
And then so I guess we just go out there.
But again, thinking of us is probably a really small case compared to nurses, doctors in hospital.
Those are the people really in the frontline. And then the pressure is definitely a lot more so.
Yeah. And and did you I mean,
you said that the work was very intense in the early days when you were doing the proof of principle and getting the the device working.
Did you I mean, how, how well did you cope with that and what were your home circumstances?
I mean, were you living by yourself at the time? Was it just work and sleep?
Do you think that where you were able to do anything to support your your own wellbeing in that time?
I think my partner definitely helped a lot, Yes, with my partner.
And then I remember.
Yeah, I always especially I remember it was quite interesting because I went at that time, I went back home quite late, pretty much always.
And then they there was once he probably knew that I'm quite tired or something, so he came out to try to help me carry the things and so on.
But I was completely blank. So I walked past him.
And then I know this building is probably another pedestrian walking by,
and then that's the time that I kind of like, Oh, actually, I might need to really,
you know, also taking care of myself a tiny bit because I can't even, you know,
notice that he's passed by and then but definitely he's supporting me a lot.
Like I think if if we don't have dinner here, then he's cooking, he's helping with all different aspects and then yes, trying to help me.
That's good. And but do you think that the fact you had a job to do, I mean,
like so many people were in lockdown and didn't have anything to do because they couldn't go to work.
The fact that you did have an important project to work on, do you think that helped to support your sense of well-being?
Yeah, I think actually that that definitely helped because my partner and I are well, he's also a postdoc in a university,
so he I know he really struggled a tiny bit because he know there are so many things to do or to be done in so computer lab.
So he just couldn't do it because of the before the lockdown.
Well, yeah, I'm really lucky that I was kind of involved in another project, although that's not my original research expertise.
But I do have a chance to explore how I can be useful in all this projects.
Yeah. And. And do you think I mean, there were obviously a lot of changes in the way people work,
things like using, you know, virtual conference calling and all that kind of thing.
Do you think in fact some of those changes were positive and would you see that kind of way of working continuing after the the emergency is over?
Yeah, I think that definitely helps. And also the way that like the speed.
And also how people can be brought together in such a short period of time is it's definitely gonna change the world later on.
Like people, for example, like clinical trials, how to collaborate across different continents, communication through different departments and so on.
I think that all speed things well now because of the probably the people are getting used to it or people are more open to it,
that definitely speed up and improve.
You just you got you don't have to get on a plane and go to a conference.
It's just you can just say, we'll have a call next Wednesday and yeah, or you're set up a collaboration meeting face to face,
but you can just run it and then people will still think that it's happening.
Yes, yes, yes. And do you think that I mean, did you find the level of collaboration?
I mean, I know you were in a very interdisciplinary field, so you will always have had quite wide collaboration in your work.
But do you think there was a step change in the degree to which people from
different backgrounds were collaborating to solve these problems in the pandemic?
What do you think that was? That was a bigger change than usual.
Did you feel that? I think well, throughout my research.
Like? Perry. I think it's always quite interdisciplinary.
But the difference, again, I think is more the speed and how people respond to certain issue.
Like we all jumping directly. There's no more border or well before there could be.
Like you need to arrange certain meetings or certain networking to bring people together.
But now is really knowing that like there's no border directly reach out.
People know that is a serious issue. You don't need to have those application.
People just try every different way to go. And it's part.
Yes. So part of that is a greater openness. Yes. It's not a sense that this is work, what's going on in our lab,
but we're not going to release it until we've got our paper written and that you
would actually share data and share technology and share all the materials,
you know? Yeah. Yeah. I think that's definitely something a bit different because there's an urgent need.
But I do see after COVID, I think people are more open as well.
Because probably people are also getting used to and then I think maybe virtual
meetings are helping it in certain way because everybody already get used to it to,
to kind of set up trust using for even virtual meetings while before you
probably need to really have like deep connections to set up the collaboration.
Well, now maybe a few times meeting that you already feel like you know the people.
Yeah, that's really interesting. So I think we more or less, um, yeah, I think we've gone through pretty well all of that.
So, yeah, so I mean, my final question really is whether the experience has changed your attitude or your
approach to your work and all the things you'd like to see change in the future.
I think it definitely changed me in, in various aspects, like, Oh really?
Really. Well, maybe one is more like how fast you might be able to make your work because before or my research is longer term
and then you might feel like you don't really know if it's actually going to be realised in the sense that,
yes, well, as you said, you're working on repairing neural tissue, which is, you know,
it's a project that people have been trying to do that for 50, 50 or 60 years and it's really hard.
Yeah, Yeah. Now just seeing how like for example, COVID vaccine before, you also need to take 15 years.
Yes, 20 years. Yes. But because of COVID, you can be down to two years or even less.
So there's always a possibility if we wanted to do it.
I feel like that's probably the major thing that opened my eyes.
I mean, if we all wanted to do certain things, if we all think that's important, we can achieve it.
Like the the, the way the system will will change it to make sure that it works.
So I think originally, for example, even since all the projects we are working on now is it might be like introduction or conventional drug delivery,
drug development pathway, you might be taking long, but I think there's a chance to shorten it and then we probably can find a way to speed things up.
No, not, not shortcut, but because of how we utilise the resource, how we navigate the regulatory pathway,
how we actually bring partners, collaborators together, like we learn how to make it faster.
Not finding a shortcut, but we know how to speed things up. Yes.
Yes. And is that also a message about basic science?
Because I mean, just taking the example of the vaccine again, um, yes, they got the vaccine in kind of just just over a year.
But in fact, that was based on maybe ten years research that had gone on beforehand to develop the vector.
Yeah. And so it was, it was really just the end of it was, it wasn't from scratch,
but because people had already done that fundamental research, yeah, it was possible to make that fast leap forward.
Um, I think definitely the, like how we collaborate, how we connect with other people.
Like, oh, the final product will be just applications, but as you mentioned, like all of.
Fundamental site. That's the core of how they drive all the rest of the technology developed by them.
Oh, that's great. Thank you very much.
Oh, before I stop. Okay. I just I always forget to ask this,
but just I just wondered if there were any of the stories that you haven't told
me that really illustrate that your experience in the time that you spent.
Are there any other stories that you might tell to friends, what you had to do and things that were different or strange or remarkable,
I think is really how like I feel like people are standing together.
You gotta no matter how difficult it is, not just our team, but even when we send out, for example, going to the airport,
besides working with people, working in the airport and so on, you just feel like everybody unites because of this disease.
And then we all try to do things well and then that kind of experiences.
Yeah, you really feel that. It's.
Yeah, it's unforgettable. You find that we are all united together, and then we are facing certain things, and then we can't deal with it.
That's probably in addition to, like, the word and all the.
Yeah. Oh, that's right. Any good?