And so I am just putting my volume up.
I think it's I think it's up as far as I could go. Right. Okay. So can you just start by saying your name and what your position is currently?
Sure. So, um, since you. I'm a research fellow at the Centre for Global Hard Depletion at the Department of Education.
At the University of Oxford. Yes. Okay. And let's just go back and see how you got to where you are now.
So how did you first get interested in this field of study and and what have been the main sort of staging points in your career up till now is.
So my current research is about higher education and also the research on research military
that I research how research is being conducted and also research about research,
cultures, policies, ethics, etc. Mm hmm.
So back like if we trace back in time, um, I first met my undergrad degree in China, so I was born in China and was educated there.
And my take my undergrad degree in English language and literature at university in China, in Beijing.
And then upon graduating from my bachelor's degree, I decided that I was also interested in social sciences studies and education,
and particularly hard case studies was something that I was really interested in.
So I took my master's degree in higher education studies at Peking University, again in Beijing.
And after finishing my master's degree, I was like, Oh, this is this has been fun and I would like to continue this journey.
So I started my de Fu doctorate here in Oxford,
and for my doctoral degree I researched the internationalisation and incentivization
of humanities and social sciences research in Chinese higher education,
and that started my stronger interests in those higher education studies and also the research on research.
Upon finishing my Dphil research,
I started working at the Department as a research officer and research fellow and then continued my visit in those areas.
Mm hmm. So when which year did you come for your dphil?
Did you arrive in Oxford to your defence? Oh 2015 Okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what are the big questions in education, In higher education research.
What are the, the, the, the, the, the issues that come up that investigators like you are trying to explore?
Well, there are many, many, many, many, many questions.
And perhaps some of the fundamental ones will be like, what is a hard question and what is hard for?
And in terms of the research and research, we also ask question, what is research and what is research for and how should we conduct research?
And that concerns the of not only the procedures of research, but also the ethics of research and also the values of research, etc.
We are also interested in the contributions, higher education and research,
the impacts of higher education research, because I mean higher education and research, they are not in silos.
They are connected with the human societies in general, right?
So they are connected to economy, to politics, to to the development of human beings in general.
So that's also something that like research like me, we investigate.
We also investigate why different stakeholders within how education, food, for instance, we look at people,
those we look at students, faculty members, administrative staff, like physically people working within into institutions.
We also look at organisations and institutions that will include higher education and research institutions and also,
for instance, government or government offices, international organisations, etc. that are related to this food.
We also research, for instance, policy, all policies, documents, curriculum, etc. that are.
Because the components,
but also elements or other things when you to the reception room and does take the kind of the work that you do in this field and your colleagues do,
does that have an impact on policies either at the level of individual institutions or at the level of government or other stakeholders?
I think the answer is yes, and we also hope so.
So because, for instance, the research about how education and research have been influencing how universities,
research institutions make decisions about various of issues such as student recruitment,
curriculum reform, reform of the academic work force, and also the institutions.
The studies have been influencing local, national international policy.
Well, the influences vary across contexts.
In some context, the policies are more research based or research informed, whereas it may not be the case in other contexts.
But I think research, as many of the researchers like myself,
we will hope that the studies we conduct would not only have impact within the scholarly communities, but also have wider impact.
Mm hmm. And I mean, you're interested in this on a global level.
How much variety is there between countries in how their higher education systems work?
And I mean, that's a very big question,
but maybe you can give me a couple of examples of differences between between countries and potential for this question,
because it is an interesting one. But as I said, it's a big question.
And I would say that, first of all, there are huge variations in terms of how how education and research are organised and practised.
But I will also say that there are also similarities.
So to give you some examples of the similarities perhaps first.
So in terms of similarities, we're seeing worldwide a growth of enrolment into higher education and also tertiary education.
So when we talk about when we talk about tertiary education,
that we include both publication and also for instance for the education, vocational education.
So we're seeing this trend worldwide as more and more people are engaged and participating in higher education, in tertiary education.
We're also seeing the increase of research productivity if measured by the publications, research publications worldwide.
So that's also similar in every context.
Another common theme would be the prevalence of so-called Western models within global educational research.
So that is exemplified by, for instance, the increasing use of English language for academic publications and for curricula like teaching.
So in many non-English speaking countries, there has been growth of curricula that are delivered in English language.
And also we're seeing the and how universities are organised in practice are more and more similar.
Many universities are trying. To become like Harvard or Oxford in in in many contexts.
So that's something that is happening all around the world.
And many scholars are taking a kind of critical eye where critical takes on this in terms of the variations that is.
Well. There are so many.
But for instance, in terms of the purpose of higher education, in some context,
the purpose of higher education is more related to the public good or the common good idea.
For instance, in countries like Finland or the Nordic countries,
the and also some Latin American countries, higher education is free from tuition fees.
And there's the common notion of higher education is contributing and should be contributing to the public good in general.
But in some other countries, education is more considered as a private good.
And that has reflected both in the private more a high proportion of privately funded institutions.
And also students also need to pay for their tuition fees by themselves, etc., but also how high education is governed.
So it's more like privately oriented and those are more commercialised.
And this is also reflected in international education.
For instance, in the UK, higher education, particularly international higher education,
is perceived as like it's much more marketable, commercialised and related to marketisation.
So it's often export and import goes to some extent and this happens with Australia.
The United States to some extent as well.
Whereas for some other countries like China, for international education, so is not so much about commercialisation, it's more about, for instance,
increasing the the attraction of China to to or to international students and
also as a way to promote Chinese culture or like the soft power of China.
So you will see that there's there has been many governmentally funded scholarships for international students,
whereas in the UK and Australia and such, the international education is more dependent on students paying high fees to enter the universities.
So there are like many differences across the world.
But that also brings up the fact that the both the workforce and the student body is very mobile and at the moment globally, that that then I mean,
I guess that's why you get some standardisation across countries because people want to attract the top
performing academics wherever the universities might be in the country and also the most able students.
Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm. Okay, that's great.
So that's given me a very good background to the work that you do.
So going back to around the end of 2019, and obviously as somebody with connections to China, you would have been perhaps more aware than most.
But can you remember when you first heard that there was a and a problem developing around Wuhan and people getting very sick?
And and how soon you realised that that might be something that would affect us all globally.
So that that story is quite, I think, into virtually individualised.
And for me the personal story was I was in China in December 29, 2019.
Mm hmm. I was in China. I was. I was there for.
For both academic purpose and also see my families.
And then I was back in the UK in January, and I was in China.
I saw news about the. I don't think that was called corona virus, but like a disease that emerged in the news.
And then but then at that time, I was like, not sure how big that would be and how huge that would be.
And I don't I didn't I didn't know that was like becoming to develop into COVID 19, etc.
But when I was back in the UK and just to interrupt on your flight back.
Were there any precautions taken on the flight or any kind of testing?
Oh, not the. No, not. No. Testing was like all formalised like precautions because I came back early January.
But yes, that's like very early. But for me, I came back with my parents, so they came with me to visit me and stayed with me for a week.
Initially planned for a short period of time, one two months also.
And then the as with my family, we were cautious of issues like such.
So we were wearing masks and even back in China.
And partly that's quite, quite common in China, isn't it, for people to wear masks outdoors, either for pollution or insurance or any other thing?
Yes, that's quite common. And also because during winter time I was I was cautious of getting flus one once during the year before that.
And that was really serious. So I was like, I need to be cautious of that.
So, yeah, we were wearing masks, but that that we're like really common masks, not the highly protective once.
And then when we got here, obviously news got developed and I got information from both the TV and official news outlets,
but also social media, social media platforms from China.
So I got it. Like I, my resources for information are like dual channels.
Those these things and the English media and English social and also social
media in English language and also the platforms and social media in Chinese.
So I got information from both sources, and I think people started to get serious soon as they worried about that in
January before it's like officially announced by the go to you as the pandemic.
There have been discussions around that in Chinese a lot, and I got really worried about that at that time.
And that was around that time. I bought a box of masks on in boots when it's available, when it's easy to buy masks.
But then when I think just a week later or something, you cannot get masks anyway, that's that become the bit that became difficult.
And also friends, my Chinese friends both here and also in China or I think got.
We may be more aware of this issue earlier than many other friends and colleagues that don't speak Chinese.
Yes, that's right. Yes. And that was also when my family and myself, my parents and myself, we started to wear masks here in Oxford.
But I remember. I remember I soon started to realise that is not a thing that is commonly accepted here.
And I also remember starting to see news about Asian looking people got beaten up or publicly assaulted,
all because of because they were wearing masks. We were not like, straight.
And so that got me really concerned.
That's not something you personally ever experienced, though. No, no, no.
Luckily, Luckily, no. I remember my parents and myself.
So one day we went into the restaurant here in Oxford and then.
That was around the time when people here started to learn about the pandemic.
And and people were saying that I was from China, and then I really didn't use to see Chinese people except.
So when we walked into the restaurant, we saw people like looking at us with.
So I don't I don't see it's really something that is not close to the level of a look that I wouldn't see without the pandemic.
I was, I think, after two weeks when we were back.
So my mom was like, we should we should let them know that we're safe because we've been back for like for some time and it should be fine.
But I was like, Why? Why, why?
Why should it be our why should it be the case that we would need to explain ourselves so that people don't look at us in a different light?
I mean, this is not our fault in every way.
And I remember that. I remember the the uneasiness and the sense of guilt, although it's not something that we personally think from.
So, yeah, I remembered that.
And I also remember seeing negative many, many of the negative and irrational comments online, all in the English language.
And that made me really uneasy for for, for some time.
And but I mean, term started again at the normal time and you you had your normal but most of Hillary time carried on much it's normal didn't it.
So when when when did you it was it I mean I think the university more or less shut down the week before the lockdown.
So that was about the middle of March.
But had you already started to think of how your research might turn to look at how the impact of the pandemic on higher education,
or did that happen later?
I think that happened some I think many things happened during January and between January and the lockdown in March within months.
Yes. The actual lockdown was, I think, the 23rd of March yet.
But the university closed the week before, I think is so many things happened between that period.
So a sense of uneasiness, the sense of the word.
I was really anxious. And then for in terms of because I also taught on an classes, I'm also teaching on classes.
And then I emailed my colleague. I remember emailing my colleague, telling them that I was just back from China.
So should I attend the lecture or not?
And they were like, It's okay, that's fine.
I really think that's an issue.
But I was I was I remember I was feeling the I don't want to be the one to carry the virus to you and to my colleagues.
I might have will wear a mask to the class, but I don't think I was wearing that in a classroom when I was doing that.
But I mean, up to like two weeks or so, I was fine. So I felt okay, then I should be okay.
But I remember that sense of I don't want to be the one.
And also, in terms of research,
I can't remember when I started to have the idea because as the pandemic started and people started to get aware of that,
I observed the really rapid responses within science about that.
When people started, when researchers started to share publications, open access, when funders publishes journals,
started to put out like calls for research to be published and data to be published, open access regarding this, regarding the coronavirus.
And also I started to read a lot about like science commentary, except, you know,
so the started to get more countries of the latest development of the research on coronavirus because
that's something that I think is more of a reliable resources on how we could react and respond.
Because at the beginning we didn't have much information, we didn't know how infectious it is, how serious it is, and how to really respond to that.
And there have been like debates about whether people should be wearing masks or not.
Right. So those issues, I think, should be scientifically based.
So I'm personally calling the science evidence as well.
And the I can't remember the exact time, but I was also like talking with friends and colleagues about relevant issues like that.
And then, yeah, I really can't remember the exact timing when I wanted to write a piece about that.
And then I wrote a piece for the conversation.
It's a platform for communications, which is, I think, the public with wider communities about science and research.
And I wanted to write about how the. Despite the all the disruptions pandemic have brought to the world,
other science communities have been trying to tackle their issues with, for instance, the openness with more openness within science.
I wrote that I think perhaps during that one two months and that's published and our got.
All attention, judged by the reader to the number of the readership, was also conducted by people owned by media to.
Like to know more and to talk more about that. And so that's something that's happening.
And another thing is that because my at that time I interned at Postdoctoral Fellowship, so I was on an ESR postdoctoral fellowship doing that here.
My planned one will be about to continue the doctoral research directions about the humanities and social sciences research in China.
And I had planned activities. For instance, I had planned to attend a conference in the United States.
In March or April. And because of the pandemic, I started to rethink about the closet that they think whether I should go.
I have to applied for my visa in January and got that.
But then I later decided not to go because of the pandemic.
So that's something that happened between us. And did the conference actually take place at all in the end?
It took place, I think, half, but it might be in a hybrid mode.
All right. Like my presentation. Virtually was something that happened on.
So that was that must have been an early example of that.
I mean, how could this I don't know if this is something you previously researched,
but the idea of hybrid working seems to me to be something that really didn't come up until the pandemic.
You know, if there was a conflict, everybody would go. You wouldn't say, Oh, no, I can't come.
I'll just do my presentation online. Is that something that that is one of the huge impacts of the pandemic.
I think all how we work and in every sector and in research conferences in general, conferences in hybrid mode is one of the examples.
And I remember the conference organising committee have also been issuing notices and updates like really frequently.
And I can imagine the work behind all of these and all the discussions and
conversations that must have taken place to just to discuss whether to cancel this,
how to move forward. Accenture because the preparation has been like huge amount of time and effort have been put in.
And I also remember like personally recording for my.
Presentation All have been an issue because a lot of the technology was quite new, wasn't it?
I mean, I know I had certainly never used Zoom before the pandemic, and I guess it existed, but it hadn't grown into this huge thing at that stage.
And similarly with teams and we were all learning how to use them.
Yeah, I've only I personally I've only used like online meeting format for a few times before, but since the pandemic it has become like the norm.
Right? And I remember moving meeting with colleagues and students, firstly on Skype and then on Zoom,
and then moved to teams because that's the university rep who recommended the software.
And yeah, it's really. There's such a sense as a process.
But I think I interrupted you because you were talking about how you'd originally
been intending to go on studying humanities and social science research in China.
And clearly not just the conference, but you there were a lot of things you wouldn't be able to do,
Like you wouldn't be able to visit China, presumably. No, no, I wouldn't be able to.
And I had planned trip of like research trip to Hong Kong.
That wouldn't happen. That couldn't happen.
And I had planned to take to attend a training course in Leiden about legal metrics studies, and I couldn't attend in person.
I also applied for Visa for that because I need to apply for a visa to to to go to many countries because I'm Chinese citizen.
But the that moved online.
So I ended up attending to online, which went well.
But then it's also a change of plan and I couldn't.
And also because of the various of things that are happening.
I couldn't really focus myself on that continuing to the previous research
direction because there were so many things that were happening and so many.
On issues that come up, that came up everyday.
And also personally, my parents were like.
But because the flights started to get cancelled, they didn't want to be stuck here because they were visiting me during the break.
They also need to return to their work so that their return flights have been cancelled and with Gertrude and cancelled, reschedule every day.
So that was really worrying at that time.
At some time we thought maybe they were stuck here for we don't know how long time.
So that was something also taking up my energy all or like concerning.
So because I was like full calling the airline companies almost every day to see if we can rebook risk had to and
that's something that couldn't be done online because of the huge number of cancellations that were happening.
So in the end, they managed to come back to China before the lockdown.
Well, that's fortunate.
But we were also hugely concerned about like whether if they will got affected during the flight and things like that and the travel and all of that.
They returned to China. I think very shortly there were no flight.
Between China and UK then. And then I remember, like my students and some other Chinese students and friends, they they were too afraid to say.
But then it's also difficult to get tickets or to have flights to come back to China.
So some of them had like huge. Really high prices to book for privately organised flights.
Or really expensive tickets to go back there.
And some of my friends. Went back to China then.
And they never got the chance to get back here. You know, I guess I'm interested.
I mean, I hope this isn't a.
I'm not quite sure the word is overly nationalistic, but I'm interested that they felt they would be safer to fly back to China,
which was the epicentre of the pandemic, then stay in the UK, which at that time had very few cases.
Is that I think partly because.
Partly because at that time it's like people didn't know how long it would take.
So there is a sense of of fear, of being separated from families.
Potentially forever. That's the fear that so many people have not had.
And another thing was that because of the issues of Chinese people, Asian people being attacked,
feared, assaulted or or in our facing racial hate crimes, etc., people were worried.
So people like me, we. We started to feel worried to wear masks in public spaces, which shouldn't be the case.
And then another thing was done in China, though do more much more places people feel like the.
How his cousin handled was more seriously like, Oh, people were in lockdowns then and like, people took it seriously.
This year there were debates and all.
About whether we should take it seriously and whether they should be lockdowns and and whether it's a big thing we're not.
So the general opinion, I think we're quite different.
I mean, I don't want to go into details about like the governmental regulations, etc., because people have different opinions about that.
But I mean, in general, during that time, I think people in China think that the thing.
They took it much more serious, and partly because of the previous experience with the SAS, m o and also because of.
Perhaps a more sense of.
The culture, the public culture of being, you know,
more collective in a way that less individualised and and and then so is so we're facing this pandemic and if I need to be.
Need to be locked down, then okay I will. I'll be at home.
So that's something that people will do. But then here is a quite different scenario.
But then, I mean, if we'd look at these issues for a longer period of time, when we are seeing,
we have to see the prolonged lockdowns and that effects in China that have happened last year and the recent recent recent times.
But during that time, yes, my people, some people will feel safer and easier.
And some of the friends and colleagues have been really worried about their family members in China.
And at the beginning, when the war when it's easier to buy masks here or trying to get like a house with masks, etc., to to send back to China.
But then very soon people realise that it's difficult to get it everywhere.
And also in my cases, some of my friends,
they were doing they were planning to do fieldwork in China and they knew if
they don't get into China then it will be impossible or very tricky for them.
So those friends, they also kind of rushed back to China to be able to collect data and eccentricities,
also something maybe just a small proportion of people and also for students,
all one year master's program, they knew they would need to be back in China because many of them would not be able to apply for jobs here.
And they wanted to apply for jobs in China after graduation.
That's their plan. And they knew that if they stayed a longer period of time, they were like increased uncertainty.
And so people were kind of rushing back to China and various reasons.
So that's that's a very, very interesting perspective, which I haven't picked up from any now.
But you stayed and you wrote your piece in the conversation that that did did that give you the idea that
he was a research project that you could undertake to explore further how the scientific community,
particularly I mean, was it where you particularly interested in the scientific community or higher education in general?
I think also higher education and science and so.
I think at that time, another thing that's happening was that.
Within the science areas and also in higher education.
With the pandemic became officially acknowledged as the thing when people who and when all people started to take it seriously,
there started to be to have funding calls for research on COVID 19 pandemic.
And also more and more colleagues and researchers started to pay attention to this issue and started to shift the research focuses.
On issues relevant to the pandemic.
So that's something that's happening for myself.
I also have colleagues who want it to.
Explore those issues. And we also talked about and worked together on issues to develop like funding proposals to develop collective works on this.
And one of the examples of the. So there was later a link to.
I've put together a webinar series hosted by the Centre for Global Education,
and that's the topic was discussed and proposed by colleagues at the centre.
So we wanted to have a webinar series about the pandemic and higher education and for that because for the Centre for Global,
how to occasionally host. Seminars before the pandemic that happen in-person at UCL, usually and sometimes in Oxford, about 18 issues.
And then since the pandemic started, we've very soon moved to webinar format.
And that the Filipinos who receive like audience worldwide and we started to realise that it's really
it's really nice way to connect with colleagues and people interested in higher education worldwide.
And also because the topics that we research are not like nationally or locally founded and some of the issues are quite related global contexts.
So we, we, we thought that is, that's, that's a good platform.
And I mean,
the decisions were made mostly by our director professors on the margins and then also other colleagues on the the Code Research Management Committee,
I think. And then for the for the webinar series about global research.
So I was encouraged by done by Simon to start a Filipino about global pandemic, about the pandemic and global research.
And so at that time. I can't remember the exact timing because now that I think back,
I feel like a few too few months between January and perhaps summer time had been really.
We were so many things that happened built like a swirl and and and so many emotions and so many things.
So many activities. And. Kind of happened there then.
So for me, those are like really pieces that are there and here and there.
So I will need to like, try to piece them back.
But I don't if I did, I did watch the webinar because it's still available on a webinar and I'm just trying to remember myself when it was in June,
could it have been, you know, immediately summer time? Because I remember the I can't remember the weather.
It's not that cold. And I don't remember like there more daylight that time.
So it should be all over the summer time.
The preparation took before long before that.
So I invited colleagues. I invited our doctor, Jemma Derek,
because I wrote her piece in Nature about the pandemic and the kindness in research communities that happened since the pandemic.
I really like that. And also because I think I can't remember exactly at that time whether I had a personal connection with her.
But I mean, I work with her now. What was her name again?
Sorry, I didn't get. Yes. Dr. Jemmott Derek Chauvin.
Is Christo interesting? Yeah, is.
And another of member is a colleague I invited because also.
Because of the work, because of his work on the research on pandemic, on the COVID 19 and a lot of time.
But in this world. And then we actually.
Okay. And who is that? It's its name.
Happened to make me want to worry.
I can look it up because I don't. I don't want to mispronounce this place.
Let me. Let me have a very quick chat so that.
The. Lisa.
Um. It's Dr.
Giovanni. Yeah. Pleased to. I hope I'm pronouncing it correctly.
And Spain is so and the choo choo is Professor Alice Walker also, of course.
And she's the project lead of the current project I'm working on.
So we research the role and value of research in global science and in global in higher education.
And her research expertise has also been our research on message.
And we've also talked about and discussed issues about the pandemic and influences on research, etc. during that time as well.
So that's the piano and for me, for myself.
Oh, yeah, I can remember at that time I was preparing a not a short piece or commentary for international higher education.
About the influence impacts of the global pandemic, home, coeducation and research.
So I think I drew on that writing for the presentation.
And to prepare for that writing. I think I.
Mostly read about.
Scientific publications. Commentaries,
discussions online and discuss with colleagues about the potential impacts or
the actual impacts that may be emerging about the pandemic on global science.
So I talked about the. Collaboration, the potentially increased collaboration to tackle the pandemic,
but also potentially restrictions of potential restrictions on scientific operations and.
Potential. Increase in terms of competition, in collaboration, also talked about research coaches,
how the size communities may be may be embracing the culture of open sites and open message more because of the pandemic and
how the defining of humans or their humanism may be more perceived and valued in practice or in the higher education research.
Was or may became more human centred.
And then I think I also talked about. The inequalities that were happening at that time.
But at that time, I think it's more of an observation.
And now we're seeing more evidence of how people are disproportionately affected by the pandemic.
For instance, gender has been playing a huge role,
whereas we have been seeing evidence of how female scholars have been hugely more hugely impacted by male colleagues during the pandemic.
If we measured that in terms of scientific outputs and we're also seeing the
evidence about the racial it is propagated effects of the pandemic on people.
I mean, not just faculty members, including international students, international student bodies, etc.
We're also seeing evidence about like how socioeconomic status I has always affect how people have been influenced and impacted by the pandemic.
It's it's a it's a storm that affects everyone but different people or different shelters, something that we've been witnessing and meeting.
I mean, have you been able to drill down into the reasons for those disparities, for example,
that the disadvantage for women is that to do with the behaviour of their colleagues,
or is it more to do with the fact that they're more likely to be having to take on caring
responsibilities under lockdown circumstances when schools are closed and that kind of thing?
Yeah, definitely theories of reasons behind this.
So one of the reasons would be, which you've mentioned,
the more socially or commonly widely perceived role for women to be taking the caring responsibilities.
And that happened in families with children.
So in families when they're I mean, during the school lockdowns, women have been taking more responsibilities.
And this also happened in workplaces when women or female colleagues tended to take up more of the supportive or caring roles in supporting students,
supporting colleagues and taking administrative works.
And during the pandemic, when lots of things that need to be done really urgently and when there were like chaos,
etc., as women, female colleagues, I mean, I'm using women's interchangeably,
but I know there are differences and policies,
but then it's more of the it tend to be the burden that are on the shoulders of women and also in terms of mental health issues as well.
Like it also affect women all not like I mean potentially more and also in terms of like the gender roles landscape.
I mean, women have been at a disadvantage positions already, even without the pandemic.
And the pandemic just intensified those disadvantages and in activities.
So that's something that. I think that's also another.
Another reason for that is is.
You mentioned that ethical issues were one of the areas that you were interested in generally across your research.
What were the main ethical issues that arose in terms of research as a result of the pandemic?
So one of the tensions about researching COVID 19 or risk or researching or doing research during the COVID 19 is about on the one hand,
we need something that is really will meet findings, evidence that are urgently like, very interesting.
But on the other hand, there are also issues about then greater research quality and also the responses that researchers have for themselves,
for the community, and for people, for participants. So those tensions were raised, lots of issues.
For instance, I talked about how science community have been more open in terms of there have been increase of the number of
publications that are published in open access or as preprints that everyone in the world can access immediately.
But that had triggered issues about forced use or scientific evidence that have been have not been peer reviewed and or it's not rigorous enough.
And that could lead to like not rigorously informed decisions.
Another issue is that, I mean, I've mentioned that many people started to shift their attention to researching relevant issues about COVID 19.
But then. How about the researchers themselves?
When everyone is when everyone who's facing this public health issues and there are many like health and
safety concerns that researchers themselves should consider for themselves before they before everyone.
Continue to work hard. Right. And also their issues.
The research participants. Right. The health and safety issues of research participants.
How do you ensure that during the pandemic when you're also trying to do research?
And one of the examples, perhaps, for instance, is that.
And at a time when many people may have wanted to interview colleagues working in hospitals or in size in science labs.
But given the. Tremendous.
Burden. And time that day was spent researching the COVID 19 and the virus and trying to develop vaccines
and who is very rapidly may be we one to disrupt and disturb them that much at the time.
And for research participants that were from the vulnerable groups, from regions like, for instance, the global South,
their ethical concerns to to, to, to have one when when people even before you start reaching out to people like that during that difficult time.
Right. So there were so those were like the issues that were relevant to research during the pandemic and our colleagues.
So, Professor,
this won't have mentioned and another colleague at our department who is doing doctoral research on epigenetic injustice in research in Kazakhstan.
Olga Mong So we started to.
Do research about all ethical issues in comparative and international education research during the pandemic.
I can't remember the exact time when we applied for the grants where we started,
etc. but that's something I think stemmed from the observations and the discussions.
Sorry, I can't remember if that happened during the first few months or something like that.
But that's related. No.
Well, it's quite understandable. It was such a strange period that difficult to your perception of time changed a lot, I think over.
Over a period. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's. I don't know. I don't know. I when I was talking with you about this, I love so many of the images also started to occur.
And I remember meeting my students online on Skype and, and how I was very worried about them because they were like,
in their room, like single rooms and not being able to socialise with other people and, and feeling stressed and such.
Yeah, so does. I don't know. I don't know why, but those images just came back to me.
Any kind of memory that works in in images.
But it's I mean,
that's that is something that I usually bring up when I'm doing these interviews is is how you were impacted personally by the pandemic.
And you already told me quite a lot about that, the huge anxiety you had about yourself and your parents and so on.
How threatened did you feel yourself about the possibility of becoming infected with with COVID?
Oh, at that time, I think I was really worried and super cautious.
So I have happened So since the lockdown, I don't think a met.
Any one a person for a long time.
For a very long time. Still no. Oh, I mean, between that.
I was talking about, like, the first few months of the year.
Yes. Yes. You know, there were the lockdowns had been lifted for some time and then came back this period of time.
But for myself, I've been mostly quarantining in quarantine.
The current is stage two. If I'm meeting friends. I, I, I always like meeting the outdoors, wearing masks and maintaining distance, etcetera.
And I'm one of the people who still wear masks now in public transport and in like the indoor spaces or mask and I teach in classrooms.
Oh, I took off my mask when I was speaking. But then I where I wear masks most of the time indoors.
So I'm one of the people who is super, super cautious of this.
Yeah. And did the the vaccine, the fact that you were able to get the vaccine, did that relieve your fears to some extent?
Is that certainly did I think before we.
Before people were able to get vaccine, the Corona virus was considered really factious.
It's really and we've been seeing cases, really serious cases of people affected.
So after I got vaccinated, I think I got more.
But if I felt better, although it might come down to the first or second vaccination I got cert is the doctor was really serious and I was like,
Oh, it's if I really got the COVID, it should be even worse than that.
Is the vaccination thing helped a lot?
And and have you ever got the virus?
It sounds to me as if you've been so careful. You probably haven't. Yeah, I have.
Then I'm punching. You know, it's becoming harder and harder to meet anybody who's never had it.
Now, I had it from a but not at all badly.
That seems to be quite a lot of it about at the moment. I keep hearing of people who've had it for a few days.
Yeah, that's good. It is good that the vaccinations seem to be working in this way.
It's so good. Going back to your your research has the the work that you did related to the pandemic raised new questions in
your mind for areas that you would like to investigate in the way the research community works is definitely so.
One of the issues about research ethics that I talked about, that's something that I continued working on with colleagues I've just mentioned.
And another thing was about the. The.
Actually, many of the issues I've talked about or continued in my current research interests and directions,
for instance, the issues about the the humanness within research culture and how we should or how we could.
Value. The people with they heard in research was human rather than as something that is objectified, commercialised or like quantifiable,
then that's something that I'm personally really interested in exploring more
and other instances of good practice that you can point to in that regard.
And if so, this relates to actually what I'm going to say.
So in, in the current projects that I'm conducting with colleagues on the role and mission of research,
we would be interviewing people in different countries and different contexts.
And one of the issues that emerged was about the responses to the COVID 19 pandemic.
And so we've found with identify various types of responses from different systems that.
One thing. One thing that is.
I mean. I don't want to sound really negative for it, but.
There seems to be in some cases, this seems to be that people were aware of the need of the importance to change during the pandemic.
But then. In the kind of the post-pandemic period when people think it's kind of over.
Things started to shift back into the quote unquote normal, and some of the good practices didn't go to be kept.
So that's something that.
That that happens in some cases and in some other cases is we're seeing changes that continued, for instance, that hybrid way of working,
that continued the understanding of the need to provide the options to work quickly
to cater for the needs of different people seemed to continued in in some instances.
Mm hmm. Now, that's very much come up in the interviews that I've done that that some people who have who've I've interviewed,
who worked on things like the vaccine program and went through an incredibly stressful time,
and there was no way of addressing that stress, that they were just told, You have to do this, you have to do this.
There is no extra time to take. You just have to do it.
But other people have worked in environments where the stress was recognised and they were told to just go home for a week,
Don't come back for a week. Just take the time to talk to yourself because you need that.
And yeah, it'd be very interesting to see that discussed more widely.
But yes, it is a bit of a shame if it if the status quo is just going to reassert itself.
In some because what we understood as normal before the pandemic may not be as you know I do or or or or or like may not be optimal beneficial.
Yeah is is it may not be the environment that.
Provides equal opportunities and equal work experience and learning experience for everyone.
We have been seeing some changes into positive or some direction into positive changes during the pandemic,
but it's a question of how and whether those positive changes will remain and the lessons have been learned a lot.
Yeah. And so for yourself,
how has working on these problems changed or has it changed the way you look at your own work and what you might like to do in the future?
So definitely, if with the if without the pandemic, I.
I might be sued. Interesting. The areas that I'm working on that and the.
No, I can't. I can't imagine. I can't imagine what will happen if with the pandemic.
But then, yes, I personally, my research interests are certainly much more developed because of the research and because of the thinking,
because of the experiences. Through the pandemic.
And I think I'm also more.
I also became more aware of certain issues.
And another thing, another huge thing that happened during the pandemic was the kind of discussions and
rise of discussions and movement about the colonial movements and those discourses.
And that happened not only in societies, but also in research and education and research.
So, I mean, that's also one of the areas that I personally became more intensively aware of.
I was aware of. I was doing research rather than to that, but to the pandemic,
the the movement itself and the relevant discourses, discussions, activities might be more highly.
Active. Mm hmm. So was that in relation to things like the selection of participants for clinical trials,
or how did that the the issue of decolonisation present itself in the work that you were doing.
Is so the. So for me, for instance, when we were doing research, we.
So for me personally, I,
I try to engage with more of the scholarly works and discussions and discourses in my research from the disadvantaged regions and groups.
And then in terms of like participants and the countries and regions that I focus on.
I also try to expand my research scope. And in terms of the curriculum, in terms of the teaching, we colleagues and myself,
we've also been trying to engage more with people new this discussion in the, for instance, reading list and teaching content.
I mean, it's a journey. It's a process. It's there's no end to this.
But I think also as a department, as an institution, I think colleagues within our department have been more aware and attentive to those issues is.
So that's something. That is relevant and in all like more clinical sciences areas, I.
I think like people or also, as you said, were more aware of like the disproportionate this proportion.
The disproportionate. Yes. I mean, it's so coffee now is so good.
Is so good. It's just that word seems to me.
Yeah, it's it's a word that is so people like in clinical sciences are becoming like more also more aware of those issues.
Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. So I mean this sounds like a terrible question but would you say that the,
the pandemic has actually been beneficial to your career as an, as a researcher in your field.
I hesitated because I know I think beneficial might.
Maybe I will say it is helpful in some way, but I'm not that comfortable saying it's beneficial because well,
obviously because it was not a lot of people, but it has caused so much harm and.
Yeah. And I mean personally it's helpful in some women has mentioned, but it's also not beneficial and not helpful in many other ways.
So they were they had been like.
Like struggles, anxieties and also potentially missed opportunities because I couldn't engage with more people.
I mean, online engagement has been helpful.
But then all. If there were like more opportunities to meet people and give communities and corporations in person,
there may be other like different scenarios, etc. So I don't know if that's really beneficial or not.
And also because of the harms the pandemic has brought to people all over the
world and because of the intensified injustice inequalities during the pandemic,
I personally do want to say it's a very good thing. It's not a good thing.
Not very. It's not a good thing. So if if.
Let's do it this way.
So if I have this magic click that, that if I clicked it and then things never happen and we can travel back in time, then I would collect it.
So the pandemic never happened. So that that would be the way I see it.
And. That's great.
Thank you very much. Okay, so I.