Thank you all for that fascinating paper. Could you maybe now turn on me a little video?
That's right. Thanks. Hello.
How are you? I'm good. And say.
I know we have a question from Alex. Do you want to? Read it yourself.
Yeah. What makes it well, then? Thank you. Thank you so much for that presentation.
So I'm a librarian at the public library and in special collections.
And as you may imagine, I think you're very aware of this. We often have collections where the archive has been acquired for one reason.
And and with one type of material in mind. And yet as time goes by and as people learn to be interested in other things, we find other things in it.
I was so interested to hear you say that photographs are, you know, hidden away sometimes in archives.
And you mentioned Vanessa Bell photographs as a record of her painting rather than as working themselves.
Could you talk about any experiences of of extracting photographs from behind or other other archival material?
Well, certainly. Can anybody hear me? Certainly.
The photographers that I did transship photographers that I found at the Imperial War Museum were a real example of this.
These were Nazis, huge men who were allowed to photograph.
Well, they weren't allowed to photograph soldiers. So just to large photograph in the First World War.
But women and nurses were so invisible to the establishment that they made enormous records, Sir Richard.
Diaries and photographs.
And these were stored at the Imperial War Museum as a record of life in the First World War rather than as women's photography.
And somebody told me about these when I think it was maybe Terence Pepperell Portrait Gallery told me that these photographs existed.
And so I went to the Imperial War Museum, where they insisted that it was run by strange retired army people,
then mostly male, who told me that they just didn't exist. But I persisted and said that somebody told me that they were there.
And eventually we found them. And they're quite remarkable. And the other photographs that I found in the women's library with some lots and lots
of suffragette photographs which again were filed in the suffragettes activities,
and that's how I found the work of Connell and.
And then reading about the East London Federation of Suffragettes, which I became really interested in,
I came across nor smiled and managed to find those in the Museum of Labour history.
I can't think of how I did manage to find these things because there was no Internet.
I think there was an awful lot of letter writing to people to buy.
This is. And. And then to other people. Have you heard of anything interesting women's work that you know is sort of buried?
There's still lots and lots of things are buried. I just scraped the surface, really.
And there's so many things left, not even counting the photos in family archives.
So, yes, I think if you're into anything and military and ACON Special Interest Archive
is a really good place to look for women's work because it will often be there,
but not as women's work, just as maybe, I don't know.
Optronics or something like that. Or medical photography. It will always be there because women work was hugely active in photography.
Right. Almost from its beginning. Thank you for that.
About you. You kept using the word. Well, the verb tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, you find.
And I just was I was just wondering.
About your process, about your research process. Like, how do you go about.
How did you go back? You mentioned the letters and the and they're talking to people and getting in touch with people.
How did you go about your research?
And I'm guessing travelling around in.
Can you tell us about your process? In a way. Yeah. There was a lot of travelling.
There was a lot of talking from one person to another. So I talked to somebody who would give you a lead and then you'd follow it.
And then that would lead on to something else. Mean some people really difficult.
One of the most difficult people to find was Grace Robertson, who was married to a very well-known photographer who got test in Hopkins,
been writing for a long time, but it changed her name to Grace Thurston Hopkins.
And although he was very well known and had been a subject of smarts, counselling solutions,
you wonderful documentary photographer, and she would be there while people would come to visit.
And she'd she told me this is seventy two people from the Arts Council who
were looking through Godfreys work and never said that she was a photographer,
which I found quite, quite remarkable. So it was often those kind of little leads.
And I think to find Grace, I think I rachmat 10 letters, including to Tom Hopkinson,
who I think it was Tom Hops who finally told me she was married to Godfrey Thurston Hopkins.
Enough to that. It was easy.
But there was a lot of that kind of tracking of things and going to archives and writing to people about some about who was where.
And I think in lots of ways it was easier than it is now.
And I know that sounds strange, but now when we look on the Internet, we tend to not go beyond that.
We look to see what's being put online and what's available photographically.
And it's very tempting not to go beyond that. But I think when you had no resources at all.
I think I had a small travel grant from the museum. And then it was very it was very different.
And I think it was more kind of, I don't know, easier in a very strange kind of way.
I know that sounds strange, but. Yeah, yeah.
And more and kind of very, very exciting. I think that's perhaps what I didn't put over in my talks,
which is the sheer excitement of finding these people and finding the actual people was was quite remarkable.
I'm meeting Ashley Paris, who lived in a tiny little apartment.
I think she was very badly off in Brighton and kind of lower ground floor one room apartments in Brighton, which was very, very sparse.
You know, had this wonderful career travelling to ranch's in Australia, photographing families in equipped van and with a friend,
and had done that for some years, then came back and worked for the Tattler, making these wonderful montages of society women.
And then there she was in this tiny apartment in Brighton, completely forgotten core and things like that.
They just really it was very melancholy. And it kind of made you angry as well, because she thought, why?
Why aren't these people who can afford to CLECs, you know, Walker Evans or why aren't they collecting people like Ursula Cowslip?
So it was and it did feel very, very concerning when lots of work is in our place, public U.S. archives in the archive, which is brilliant.
So there are, you know, Helen's archives, which was always looked after really well by Helen, is now in the Bodleian, which is wonderful.
So, Tish, mirthless archives being looked after by her daughter.
So it has really improved that at the time.
These are very elderly women with these great career stories, but nobody was interested in apart from apart from me at the time.
And it's also make this sort of thing that we really need to fight for those small guys to stay open.
And we have a question of them on FOX. And do you want to ask a question?
I know. I read it. You can. Okay.
She says, Do you think women are being actively collected and recorded today or can we not go yet?
That's a really difficult question.
They are being collected in various places, and certainly I think the problem is that nobody even that she's being collected at the moment.
I think that's the real problem. The kind of real decline of the regional museums, the kind of places that would have had those kind of archives is.
And the fact that you can no longer access quite a lot of museums.
There's. We were trying to access the Humphrey Splendour photos at Bolton Museum Forum for.
Seaside exhibition, Karen Shepardson and I, and there was their telephone number for the museum.
All there was was a recorded line that told you and it was over.
It was actually closed for a year or two anyway. But there was no way of finding.
There was no way of talking to a person about this material.
And when we wrote to them, I believe we got a reply. So it's almost like some things are sort of out of reach, which I think is really,
really scary, because that means that somebody can be tidying some boxes at one day and think,
well, we don't need these anymore, which is the biggest sphere of all with with photo work by women is that it might just get thrown away.
Yeah, we had cases in Birmingham and picking that out.
Yeah. Lately I have a problem with it. You know, that's an absolute tragedy.
What happened, what happened there because and all the amazing knowledgeable archival and collecting stuff were just removed in one fell swoop.
So all the things that they and I think it's very unfair on people who are collected as well,
because when those people lose their jobs that work that they've maybe sold for small amounts of money becomes totally inaccessible.
If you look at the Paul Hill archives in Birmingham or maybe from the shelter, our Cognos Shelter Archives at the National Museum of Photography,
if you look at the Paul Hill and John Blake Moore archives at Birmingham, if you want to go look at them, I think you have to wait.
You have to send an email not to a person, but just to get info and then think you have to wait six weeks for a reply.
And, you know, something is absolutely needs doing about that kind of situation.
And it's very, very bad for the artists who've almost donated their work.
I know they sold it, but they will have got just a small amount of money for it and trusted these institutions to cash not only care for their work,
but to make it accessible. And that's a very bad, very bad development.
I think at least when I was looking for work, there were no there was no Internet.
Everywhere was open. And you could phone people and talk to a human, which you just can't do anymore.
Yes. In the chat got Michael Pritchard from the Yes.
Is just said a link to a the collection dot org, which is doing an amazing job at helping people to keep their collections safe and visible.
And we have a question from Anjali and she says, Hi, my name is Angelique.
I am a party candidate at a Lancaster University. And I investigate the multiplicity of female gaze on war.
It would be great to have any information about Woolworths 1995. But may I ask you if you see specificity in female female vision, visions on war.
Thank you. In advance. I don't know, since it's a very interesting question.
When we when we wanted to do the show for the BNA, we certainly were thinking about women looking at the aftermath of war.
But that doesn't mean that that doesn't mean Manhattan.
People like Simon North, Simon Norfolk, who've done exactly exactly that, and Richard Moss and all those people.
So I wouldn't want to make any great claims that the women look at war differently from men in the past.
There was an access question, but women have always been able to access sport, the war zone, the Miller and Margaret Fulbright.
Those kind of photographers say they've never been excluded from it, but I don't know whether there's a specific women's gaze.
I think it would be great to hear from some other people if they if they think that.
I wanted to go and ask you about Illuminations, which is one of my favourite books ever,
and I'm gaining a little bit about the process behind it and the research behind it and the selecting of texts and how you went about doing that.
I think it was a it was a good partnership because, listen, they were very different. She was much more interested in theory.
And I was much more interested in the way women talk about themselves.
So I think that was that was roughly how it worked out. It was quite a simple process in a way.
She she had a list of people, theoretical writing,
which she thought was very important and interesting with which was I agreed with and I was much more interested in just these these voices.
And I was particularly interested in autobiography, because as people like Dorothy Wilding and Madam Yvonne and these great autobiographies,
which probably weren't true, not all of them, but, you know,
they made themselves out to be these fantastic kind of buccaneering women rushing around and buying strange crops and, you know,
great stories of self-sufficiency and using photography as a way to become self-sufficient, become independent young women.
So roughly kind of fell into that. And then there was some and then there was some little crossovers that were Mayor Warner Marion
piece was one of my really kind of key pieces for me and the way I thought about photography.
And and then some great classic test text from that 19th century, like the Slate piece.
So really, it was a it was a fusing of of two interests.
And then some things that were kind of inevitable, like like the Eastlake.
Interesting. And we had a message saying.
The reasons are be a third option would suggest the market is still super dominated by male photograph is you want to reflect?
Well, I'm sure it is. Yes, I did. Yes. Philip, of course, is I mean, money's always been a male.
Photographers are worth more than women photographers. There might be. There might be a few possibly exceptions to that.
Maybe, you know, if you find vintage Arbus pictures or something like that, maybe.
And I don't know. I don't really follow the market very much, although I think it's absolutely fascinating.
I, I you'd have to put a lot of time aside to follow the market, and I haven't done that.
But it is really, really interesting the way photography is distributed.
And years ago, another project that I ran back at the new British photography, we had a seminar from Phillip Gardner,
who was at one point there, and one of the major photography people at Sotheby's or Christie's Sotheby's.
And he was saying how in the beginning the auction, the auction scene in Britain was just phenomenal.
I mean, it was like the Wild West. They were desperately searching, searching for material where they could find things.
And to think that the auction, the auction business has always been a bit like that.
It's been it is the art market. It is money and under accumulation.
So I think probably male photographers, apart from those few stars, I suppose women stars, it's cool.
Not that I think we will always be like that, but maybe not.
Yes. Thinking about the question of market and auction, I think that art.
I wonder about. If we need and female created, let's say, to have shows on female photographers,
is it a question also the identity of the collectors and who has the money in this world?
And I guess so. I try hard to say,
really mean all collectors or major collectors want their work to be included in
major group and solo shows in Britain that is without and obviously elsewhere.
That is without a doubt. That's one of the aims that a collector has, is to get their work placed into into the museum sector.
It's a question of authentication and saying that they have collected the right thing because collecting is a comprehensive business,
especially for your collecting people as they just emerge.
So those place places, those kind of people who are already to collect a very ready to lend.
But I'm not sure that kind of material I've often been interested in.
This isn't the kind of material that, you know, a single collector,
usually they're male and wealthy people would really want to collect, you know, tiny little snapshots by Nora Smythe's.
And they're not really the kind of things that they want to go for. They want to go for beautiful prints that can be hung.
And this is this is much more a kind of museum archival field.
I'm that where I find things that I'm interested in.
But, you know, on the other hand, you know, the great American museums, they will have wonderful work by women duty through a.
I think it's in San Francisco that it is there and it has been collected.
And, you know, that's that's all gratitude to those people who've made sure those purchases happen.
But it's not really where my main interest of lies.
So maybe it's a question of taste and tastemakers. Possibly.
I mean, it's often a question of personalities.
People come up through the system and all of a sudden you you'll find somebody who's really making things happen.
And it's often a question of where people have come from, how they've, you know, maybe what their PHC was these days.
And to kind of make make a change. I think that's often how things happen.
I think it's very rarely policy driven.
And that's certainly something I've observed, that there is very little policy on photography in Britain who should be doing what.
It's much more a question of kind of guarding, guarding what what we have already.
There's very little interest in what I find in the future and who should be collecting what.
Interesting. Many of you may disagree with that. That's just my mind.
You will often do these kind of stories and histories are written by.
Yeah, it's people led. No way. Yeah.
Yeah. So I'm just looking at a checkbox. To Patricia Dibella is saying, yes, the warning line piece in Illuminations is great.
Misquoting. No fool.
The. I was sorry. All right. Yeah, we had a question.
Ah, I see. This is this has been asked publicly about later 19th century women travel labus.
Okay. Yes. Lady 19th century woman for clownish take photographs.
Well, yes, but maybe. Oh, yes, I'm sure they did.
I mean, I didn't I didn't go into that when I was doing my women's work, but it would be marvellous if somebody did.
Of course, they would have taken photographs. It's a great subject for somebody to do APHC or a show on ABC.
Brilliant. You have a couple of images.
But yeah, really. And Veronica did a really good series about them republishing the writings of women travellers.
I mean, that could be a good that could be a good place to start, you know,
to find the travellers and then to find the photos rather than trying to find the photos on the travellers first.
And that, you know, relatively easy to be simple to find because often they have been published.
So, yeah. And then maybe the photos there, hopefully things, too.
Not too many things got thrown away. Mm hmm. Yeah.
And so can you tell us a little bit about your process now and how you come about either
book projects or show projects and how you continue your investigation into now?
Well, I gentles work on women,
although I am now working on a couple of women's projects with Fox and we're hoping to do a book which we also kind of almost on the proposal for.
I'm very interested in the way women perform photography. I think this is the kind of closed world of women.
I think this is this is really interesting me now much more than documentary or some of the things I was interested in before.
I'm so interested in these kind of close bonds.
When we did the conference in Lithuania, there were a few people talked about they had from these very close fonts and can perform their relationship.
So that's that's one of the things that I'm interested in.
I'm really interested in women is business women to emphasise business women, because I think that's completely neglected and not just for women,
but for men as well, that this photographer who earns money by making photographs is running a business whether they like to acknowledge that or not.
And most women have acknowledged that in the past. But in the 70s, there was a real move against, you know, being thought of as a business person.
So all these people who were selling sets of prints and working for the Sunday Times didn't think of themselves as business people.
They thought of themselves as artists. So I've been running a little pilot project about women, women's careers and contrasts,
as I said in my talk, contrasting women from the interwar years to women now.
And I'm very interested in this notion of career because we use this we say that this is something and a function.
I've talked about quite a few to.
We say women didn't succeed in photography, but that's because we're using a definition of career which has been given to us by the patriarchy.
We're not using the definition of career,
which we might use if we were thinking specifically about women that women's careers are more fragmented in it.
And I think in a good way, it's so easy to say that women didn't succeed.
But maybe women have succeeded in exactly the way they want to, that they're combining lots of different things.
So I think we should we should bear that in mind. And how do I work today differently?
I must say, because I know a lot more now, there's a lot more available in shows that I do.
Now, I often reach back to the past two other shows that I've done and kind of reposition people status.
It is really different. Not as many studio visits, not getting to know so many people.
Slightly sad in a way that it's changed so much.
But hopefully when we do the next project about women and a generation, of course, died of very important women photographers.
But hopefully when we do the next project of we gain some of that adventurous spirit.
It's interesting what you say about language and maybe the way forward is like keeping up with it,
uncovering the work of female photographers, but also maybe reshaping the language and the words we use to by engaging stories.
Absolutely. And we all fall into that trap as well. I mean, when I was thinking about my talk and I said how sad I felt sometimes about these women,
I also felt incredibly sad when I met male photographer itself.
That generation was one photographer, John Summerset Murray, who lived in this terrible bungalow right in the middle of nowhere,
completely cut off in kind of, you know, surrounded by cats and a cold.
He was full of theories that his work had been stolen from him.
So in a there was that and he was the he was the person who took Williford Carson to use Summarisation.
So in a way, it does also apply to men.
It's the sadness of that of that generation that died really without ever being, you know, properly acknowledged for what they did.
So, yeah, I wouldn't apply it just. Well, but it is there is a way of talking about women.
And if Tickie found it in the debates around David Meyer, then May was them.
So yeah, I mean the text.
I cannot imagine in a million years I get whether you've seen the great warehouse where the guy who bought her archive laid out all her things,
her blouses, her shoes. It's in the film. It's a terrifying picture.
I can't imagine that would ever have been done with a male photographer if he found an archive of a man's work.
I can't believe he would have gone through his suits and bags and all those and laid them out in a warehouse floor and made a film about them.
I mean, it's just inconceivable the way people treat you different.
And it's so subtle as well, I think. I think you always have to be very careful.
And then, you know, the veneration of dead women photographers, women who died too soon.
Diane Arbus. Francesca Woodworm. I mean, it's it's very, very pervasive on the curatorial scene.
And then. Maybe other women just as worthy as Diane Arbus.
But they didn't die tragically,
something had to be really careful for those kind of for those kind of things and to disqualify women by their relationships with men.
Your team adultry edric Western. So there's lots of pitfalls.
Think in thinking and talking about women photographers and to be really careful not to portray them as victims.
I mean, they were tremendously successful. I mean, Yvonne.
I think she had a staff of about 100 people and lived a long and extremely happy life.
So, you know, let's not be let's be careful about the way we talk about women.
Yes. Little lies. I don't remember who said that. A dead woman is a woman who can't speak.
So. Yeah. I thought you could make whatever you want of it.
Yeah. You can make whatever you want. Diane Arbus was alive. I guess she'd be about.
Ninety nine, and she may have had a long, great career of dig books and magazines because she died young, because she died to suicide.
Then she becomes a martyr to the cause. I mean, this was done to come and gets so gracefully to joke that he does.
But you know what I mean. It's. There's a real way of women.
We have to be really, really careful.
And we have to be really careful about things like saying that, you know, women's careers don't succeed because they have children and families.
I mean, look, Helen, if she had that, she had a family.
You look at lots of women who. But I think, you know, they've done it in their way.
I think the main problem with women is that they just haven't been.
They haven't been collected. And lots lots of work has been destroyed and actually off in the weeds as well.
Are we seeing right now? Daughters and sons are actually saving labour.
The. So that that's one of the best things.
I think the daughters of your main Tishler author and Shirley Baker is all their daughters
are now looking after they were and probably never able to to promote their very modest.
The photographers of that period as well. They didn't promote themselves, but their daughters and sons hopefully have come from another time.
And I'm really keen to promote them as well.
I mean, Ellem office were contentious. Maths is just being contested.
So, yeah, I mean, let's let's hope that that continues to other, you know, with other archives.
We have a question. I mean, I will. About identification of personal connexions where the photograph it photograph is difficult to identify.
What do you rely upon? Well, I don't quite understand the question.
Can you hear me, Expensify? Yeah, and.
I reach. I'll get back to this question later. All right.
Sorry, sorry. I'm sorry. Do we have a question for MIA where the woman photograph was taken?
Kind of marginal in society, like some works of Francisco Whitman.
Have some. Insanity, is it difficult for women photographers to get acceptance as pleasant an artist?
We've noticed aspects of modern marginality. Your madness may be very hard to say.
I think lots of women do that. Look, Karen. No, no, no.
No suggestion of that kind of work from her.
And she's she's become very accepted.
I think, you know, Nan Golden is the great classic example of, you know, male well, maybe establishment curators like to see madness in women.
But I kind of I kind of feel that that's past. I don't know about you, but you're Coryn Day tragic heroine.
I feel that that feeling is really cast now, which I think is incredibly healthy.
Other people might disagree with me. I tend to agree.
And when we have on the Frederiksen website and interviews and we address this subject and I think the language has changed
and the framing and change and the content I change show we will not use the same kind of lens to look at these words.
I agree. So. Sorry, I'm reading books, Morris is asking.
I became very interested in the photo shittiness, honest,
bountifully station in his early days toward Europe with Kotzebue as part of his art education.
She was an accomplished photographer. A linked ring.
I don't know what that means. I've seen some of her. I've seen some of her work.
Do you know of further collections? Oh, I think there's some big collections in the she was very much known about in the 70s and 80s.
There's some books. There are collections, I think possibly in the states, the maybe some in the RPF collection.
I'm probably not I'm not sure, maybe some in the BNA, but certainly some of the big American or European collections.
There will be lots and lots of linked ring with a kind of group of pictorials, photographers.
Really interesting people. And yes. So Kesby is this lots written about.
Yeah. Kind of Mitchelton going. It is asking the issue.
One photograph is us dropping photograph. This is a really interesting one.
We take a present day definition of photographing. We're looking backwards.
But of course most post-war photography was not on gallery walls, but for magazines, adverts, book portraiture.
Absolutely. And it was a women use photography to make living. That's without a doubt.
They were passionate about it. But then you can be passionate about something that you make a living from.
So, yes, it was. They followed the market. Sometimes they made the market general.
They followed gave you a late look to what opportunities were there.
Simply look, Ursula has lived with her touring photographer Van going to these remote Australian homes,
said she'd she'd establish that some people in these very remote,
very remote places weren't really able to access photo studios, but they really wanted to have photographs taken of their families.
So they jumped on this idea of taking the studios to the people.
And I think she did that for several years and then came back to Britain and then
realised that society culture was really a demand from magazines like the Tatler,
which was a very popular magazine at the time.
So she could earn a living by doing that. I mean, all these women had to earn a living.
Or women have to earn a living now. But they were no different to us.
They may have had slightly better ways of being able to earn a living because the studio portrait movement was still really flourishing.
Yes. And going back to your point early on about and physical archives and the
importance of printed matter in order to be able to actually look at magazines,
adverts and portraiture and not rely only on the on the digital versions, meaning go and try.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I really put to touch things and especially letters.
I'm particularly keen on letters because, you know, lots of people have a really nice letterhead.
And, you know, people were very careful about the paper that they chose for their writing papers.
So you get real.
There's a letter I think should have gone up in the Times, did go up in the slides of a letter from God to stand to me when I wrote to her.
And, you know, the letter. It's a beautiful letter, beautiful paper in the typewriter.
So these are wonderful objects in their own right. We won't have that anymore.
And whether people will begin to preserve Instagram feeds.
I don't know. And what happens to scruples social media when they die?
I also because the first generation is coming up now. Who will, you know, will die having been, you know, very acquainted with social media?
I don't think anybody's made a plan for any of these things, which is pretty scary.
Very interesting. Yes. So we have a question for Masha.
My question is, do you think creating mythology about the artist today is still as important as you think it?
As to how we perceive the images? We can't often separate the work on the person, the way we think of artists like Diane Arbus in my in angled in.
I don't think we should ever separate the art from the person.
But what I think we should be really careful about is how we deal with that person and with their history,
especially if they're not alive anymore and not able to speak for themselves.
So I think it yeah, a person makes photography not not a movement or a machine.
It's the person and that passion and interests their politics, all sorts of things.
They need to make an income, the compromises they make, all those things that go into that term.
Yes. But we mustn't we must kind of take advantage of that space.
Yeah. Yeah. I said I think bacto comment about children and family.
She said Dheisheh of killing families, looking after legacies is important.
We can also and can also be a problem for women who didn't have children and were part of or were part of stable families.
Absolutely. I mean, it's here. This whole thing is the most enormous problem.
I have no idea what happened to us, how his lips work. She was childless.
She did. Children. She didn't seem to have any relatives. Maybe that work is sitting somewhere quite happily.
I really hope so. I hope it didn't go to her house clearance when she died.
That was cleared out. So, yeah, I think I mean, also, it can be very problematic.
And what goes to relatives as well? We won't mention any names, but, you know,
there are out there is all kinds of work that go to relatives who then express it or don't deal with it properly.
So, yeah, we've I've mentioned three great daughters who are doing the most wonderful job that they'll be,
lots of other family members who aren't doing such a good job.
So, you know, we shouldn't be too starry eyed about families and all kinds.
I just thought the last thing some families will want is a huge archive of photos to suddenly to be looked after,
because this is a complicated things to look after, especially if researchers want to come and look at them.
And we should be looking after this. The states should be looking after these archives.
It it shouldn't be an individual people having to do this.
And I know they want to, but they might come a time when they can't do it anymore.
Well, you know, they start doing other things or they have to have a bigger job or move abroad or something.
I mean, who you know, we shouldn't it's too dangerous to just leave it like that, as wonderful as it is.
Yeah, I've been to bringing it is for the past four years in the same kind of and we've been thinking of mindframe.
We have a question from cameleer saying that was great. Thank you.
I wanted to what extend those women photographers were aware that they were building a legacy.
Did they create work already interested in communiqu, communicating messages or even a feminist message?
I didn't think they thought they were. I didn't. I thought they were building a legacy.
I think when Helen Muskrat went to Russia, I think she thought, you know,
probably the photos she brought back from that would be really important as they are.
But I think when, you know, the work that she did in Swanage of the of the experimental dancers, I'm sure she didn't issues creating a legacy.
And she was asked to photograph them and she obviously really enjoyed doing it.
They were like minds, just cool no more. But I imagine they were of like minds and.
But I can't think for a minute she thought she was, you know, creating a legacy of Bohemia in the British bohemia.
And the same with, you know, not a woman photographer, but Keith Fawn's pictures of them,
of a young man in on the beach in Sussex, and they remained hidden.
He certainly wasn't collecting and creating a legacy because they were made hidden behind a wardrobe for many, many years.
So, you know, I think photographers do work because they want to and not because they're thinking of creating a legacy of the.
Sure. This doesn't apply to all photographers. You could go.
Black is saying, Christina,
a boom is an interesting example of early 20th century businesswoman who carved out a nice niche in the market working at that of a studio.
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. She's a fantastic role model.
Yes. Use somebody else who needed to lead you to make a living.
And yeah, was hugely efficient. Covered everything.
Wonderful. Amazing that I love these women businessmen. I like a very interesting business anyway in commerce.
And I think we need to really go back to thinking about, you know, women's work.
They work. Most women just to work to to earn a living.
They don't just do it to be to produce wonderful, wonderful work.
And one, women teach. They teach to earn a living, not just when men teach.
They don't do it because they just feel that, you know, they need to do it.
I mean, we're all earning a living. And I think it's it's really being put to the back of people's minds.
And that I think that happened in the sixties and seventies when it is Sydney to be thought
of as a working photographer wasn't good know a had to be a mystic or an artist or,
you know, somebody kind of hid away, had nothing to do with the world. And running a business and helping other people doesn't quite fit with that.
But a lot of these major big photographers, they are, you know, running huge businesses and they'll have lots of assistance.
It's just that they remain in business. Sebastiao Salgado, and they speak.
They are just them to the public eye. Actually, there'll be lots and lots of people doing things for them and with them.
So we need to be careful about this. Yeah.
Yeah. And thinking of people doing things, the photograph is maybe.
And going back to the question of families, maybe it's a question also of creating networks of friends and.
Forties. And we'll maybe talk about that later on doing today. This is one way also of securing a legacy.
And if Fox has a comment about the finished museum of photographing out LCN key,
they are collaborating with two other museums, institution projects about archiving social media.
Instagram, Instagram, I think. Not sure if any of them in the conference.
Interesting. So some historians are looking at the problem.
So if if we all know or maybe if people are now done with questions,
we have can maybe take a five minute break and you can go and grab a cup of tea or coffee and come back in five minutes for the second panel.
Thank you so very much. Vouch for this. A fascinating paper.
And for your very interesting answers to the questions.