1 00:00:06,530 --> 00:00:19,050 And so thank you both for fascinating papers. And just so, so like foot voting, and I have so many questions and I'm sure most of you do, too. 2 00:00:19,050 --> 00:00:24,450 And it is also a great consideration to what we talked about without Williams early on. 3 00:00:24,450 --> 00:00:32,480 And we've recurring notions such as jagoff careers, professions, funding money, the awareness of artistic talent, 4 00:00:32,480 --> 00:00:38,840 the importance of networks and contacts, and obviously to after those of auto's. 5 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:44,570 So I'm sure we'll have loads of questions coming up for you, too. 6 00:00:44,570 --> 00:00:49,130 But I know that Maggie Murray used in the room somewhere level in the zoo somewhere. 7 00:00:49,130 --> 00:00:55,850 I wanted to ask a question. So, Maggie, you want to amuse yourself and ask your question? 8 00:00:55,850 --> 00:00:59,970 We can start with you. I hope you hear. 9 00:00:59,970 --> 00:01:04,110 And yes, I'm a perfect Mikey. Hey, hello. 10 00:01:04,110 --> 00:01:10,230 Hello, Jessica. I see Jessica. 11 00:01:10,230 --> 00:01:19,450 I just I wanted to ask you whether Helen ever was in a group or a collaboration with other women. 12 00:01:19,450 --> 00:01:23,910 I know. I know. She was with with her partner leftists. 13 00:01:23,910 --> 00:01:33,240 But I come from a background of photography where it was informed both by my politics and also the need to earn a living. 14 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:39,750 I was in the hot flashes and former photographers and the support of other groups and the network. 15 00:01:39,750 --> 00:01:47,260 Other women in the group. And the networking was very important. Did she have anything like that? 16 00:01:47,260 --> 00:01:52,090 No, she didn't. It was just it was just lettuce. 17 00:01:52,090 --> 00:02:00,190 She went when she came when she came to make the film for Channel four and met the other five photographers, still the four photographers. 18 00:02:00,190 --> 00:02:04,150 She was very, very interested to meet some of them and had lots to talk to them about. 19 00:02:04,150 --> 00:02:06,350 But no, she did not. 20 00:02:06,350 --> 00:02:15,490 And I was very disappointed to discover that she really hadn't ever made contact with Edith to the heart because they had so much in common, 21 00:02:15,490 --> 00:02:23,470 particularly that politics. Andolan and took Juda heart went you photographed in the Welsh valleys like my mother did, and so on. 22 00:02:23,470 --> 00:02:27,270 But she never made that contact saying. 23 00:02:27,270 --> 00:02:35,240 Right. Well, thank you very much. Which would you be aware of, of her work? 24 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:43,350 Yes, she was aware of that. Again, probably through political sources, but some. 25 00:02:43,350 --> 00:02:47,500 I don't remember her talking about very much, but I do remember her mentioning her and it was very, 26 00:02:47,500 --> 00:02:56,190 very nice to meet for the talk and focus and talk and see that exhibition, which I thought was brilliant, some really interesting. 27 00:02:56,190 --> 00:02:59,920 And it's going to make Maggie for your question. 28 00:02:59,920 --> 00:03:08,710 She has a question for Erica and she asks, Do you know if she photographed any of the jury, Margaret Kamins, donations? 29 00:03:08,710 --> 00:03:17,670 Might she have met her even? So I don't have evidence that she actually photographed any of Julia Margaret Cameron's photographs. 30 00:03:17,670 --> 00:03:27,570 But there's a really Tantalus tantalising possibility that they interacted because Isabelle Agnes Kapoor was running the 31 00:03:27,570 --> 00:03:35,730 photography studio at the South Kensington Museum when Julia Margaret Cameron came in as kind of the first artist in residence. 32 00:03:35,730 --> 00:03:40,770 Some people might know that Henry Cole had invited Margaret Cameron to set up a 33 00:03:40,770 --> 00:03:49,230 studio and she took photographs of various aristocratic and well-known people. 34 00:03:49,230 --> 00:03:57,690 And I'd been desperately trying to find some evidence that perhaps Cowper and Cameron were talking wet collodion together. 35 00:03:57,690 --> 00:04:06,330 But I've yet to find the smoking gun. But I did find that Julia Margaret Cameron, before she turned to photography, 36 00:04:06,330 --> 00:04:13,800 actually had written a translation of a book I believe was a poem I'm blanking right now. 37 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:21,450 But what I did find was that callipers father had engraved the illustrations for her book. 38 00:04:21,450 --> 00:04:25,750 So they certainly would have known of each other. Certainly the family did. 39 00:04:25,750 --> 00:04:33,000 Mm hmm. Interesting. Thank you. And we have a question from Mark and Jessica. 40 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:38,580 Thank you for a wonderful insight into the whole process of sex, suffering and ends legacy. 41 00:04:38,580 --> 00:04:44,400 My family has many photographs of hers and also some some we have always attributed to Joan. 42 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:57,310 Are there plans to digitise the archive? I think that's a question for the for the Bodleian, really. 43 00:04:57,310 --> 00:05:03,210 The whole archive. Isn't that decides at the moment? I imagine it will be eventually. 44 00:05:03,210 --> 00:05:09,480 I guess. Yeah, I don't know. I can't answer that. And. And Fox has a question, one. 45 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:14,640 Another wonderful presentation. How do we ensure that women's archives will be preserved? 46 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:21,730 This was an incredible, incredible story. But how many women will be overlooked after like this? 47 00:05:21,730 --> 00:05:26,500 Erica. Jessica, you want to come? I'll. 48 00:05:26,500 --> 00:05:34,390 I mean, when I started at the BNA, I was very much kind of working on my own. 49 00:05:34,390 --> 00:05:37,780 I was kind of the the low woman on the totem pole. 50 00:05:37,780 --> 00:05:46,990 So I really I was pretty hungry for a project. And I was also very conscious not to step on anybody's toes. 51 00:05:46,990 --> 00:05:56,850 And so these file cabinets of 19th century photographs, which were kind of in the state of limbo, 52 00:05:56,850 --> 00:06:04,410 were very open for me to begin to analyse and delve into. 53 00:06:04,410 --> 00:06:14,570 And I had the time. And so I guess it's you just gotta get the right researchers in there and there's got to be funding. 54 00:06:14,570 --> 00:06:21,220 You know, it wasn't like a project that already existed. And then I came in and took it on. 55 00:06:21,220 --> 00:06:27,380 It just happened to be found through my work. So I don't know what the answer is. 56 00:06:27,380 --> 00:06:31,090 Money? Yes. Yes. 57 00:06:31,090 --> 00:06:36,450 And in my case, I, as I've described it, did not until I retired. 58 00:06:36,450 --> 00:06:43,400 You know, I had some time, but I was germinates for a long time before before I got going on it. 59 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:52,230 And I did find the president's up to date last night. But my you know, I've been tied up with my mom all my life, but none quite like a break. 60 00:06:52,230 --> 00:06:56,610 Not much. But it was really worthwhile doing. 61 00:06:56,610 --> 00:07:02,710 Yeah. It's a question of funding. It's a question of time. And it's a question of labour and being able to recognise your labour. 62 00:07:02,710 --> 00:07:08,230 I mean, and it needs to have ways of. 63 00:07:08,230 --> 00:07:12,250 Emerging, I guess, because you said you started your you're working twenty twelve. 64 00:07:12,250 --> 00:07:17,440 Right. And when 2020. So it's years isn't years of work. 65 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:22,780 So it's it's kind of a mind blowing. Yeah. And I. 66 00:07:22,780 --> 00:07:27,640 I really like Erica. You come to by the rule of seven. 67 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,250 And it made me laugh because I was thinking. 68 00:07:30,250 --> 00:07:42,610 So do we actually have to expose women photographs at least seven times to to the public for them to then recognise their names and know the work? 69 00:07:42,610 --> 00:07:46,780 Can you tell tell me more about that, even if it's it was billed as a joke. 70 00:07:46,780 --> 00:07:48,940 But I mean, it is interesting in a way, 71 00:07:48,940 --> 00:07:57,520 with the idea of having to persevere in a way and having to go back again and again and again to same kind of subjects. 72 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:02,260 Well, I remember when I first started uncovering all these photographs and it became 73 00:08:02,260 --> 00:08:09,070 apparent that Kalpa probably was one of the most largely held collections in the BNA. 74 00:08:09,070 --> 00:08:15,350 And I was kind of dumbfounded. And I remember going up to Martin Barnes, senior curator of photographs, and I'm like. 75 00:08:15,350 --> 00:08:27,390 Why has nobody written about or discovered her and he jokingly said something like, well, we've been she's been waiting for you. 76 00:08:27,390 --> 00:08:31,670 I don't know. I mean, and then. Yes, very disappointing. 77 00:08:31,670 --> 00:08:39,330 I was sitting in a lunchtime lecture. And I think those slides that Tristram Hunt showed, 78 00:08:39,330 --> 00:08:49,970 they probably had been those images had been recycled so many times and they had always been attached to the photographer's name. 79 00:08:49,970 --> 00:08:58,380 I. I sent him a note afterwards. I don't know why it's taking so long. 80 00:08:58,380 --> 00:09:05,590 You know, also I'm not a curator, so I don't get as much exposure. 81 00:09:05,590 --> 00:09:12,170 You know, there are there was going to be a show at Fome of Negatives and she was going to be included in that quite extensively. 82 00:09:12,170 --> 00:09:15,860 But funding as a result of Cauvin has been cut. So I don't know. 83 00:09:15,860 --> 00:09:26,170 I just keep plugging away. Yeah, it's interesting because it's also a case of archives and boxes finding the right people to actually 84 00:09:26,170 --> 00:09:32,660 consider that they are important boxes and they are important archives and that we need to work with, 85 00:09:32,660 --> 00:09:35,720 for and with them, I guess, in a way. 86 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:45,230 And often it's about female researchers, daughters, curators, critics, writers that didn't get interested in those. 87 00:09:45,230 --> 00:09:50,230 And then maybe do the work, the labour and the do. 88 00:09:50,230 --> 00:10:03,900 Yeah. Anyways, we have a question from Kada and she asks, Can Jessica talk a bit about the visit to the USSR in 1936? 89 00:10:03,900 --> 00:10:07,780 Yes. Yes. [INAUDIBLE]. 90 00:10:07,780 --> 00:10:14,030 The question that is this is this is in the period that she was working in Cambridge and going back to Swanage. 91 00:10:14,030 --> 00:10:21,850 Right. And they were both. Both she and she and my mother were very, very tied up. 92 00:10:21,850 --> 00:10:28,200 This is a political scene in Cambridge. And the studio actually was a venue for meetings. 93 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:32,410 And they helped organise an anti-war exhibition of all sorts, things like that. 94 00:10:32,410 --> 00:10:38,770 So they were very interested. What was going on in the Soviet Union? And interesting enough leches, Ramsey went first. 95 00:10:38,770 --> 00:10:46,240 You went two years beforehand. And that I believe there are negatives of that trip. 96 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:54,610 But I haven't seen very many photographs. I think the Cambridge Library hasn't has a few photographs from the lettuces Russian trip. 97 00:10:54,610 --> 00:11:05,180 But it was really interesting to compare them. So Helen went she just met my father and I knew he was already a member of the Communist Party. 98 00:11:05,180 --> 00:11:10,420 And he was very particular interest was in agriculture. 99 00:11:10,420 --> 00:11:16,160 So they he said, yeah, go go do this trip. 100 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:21,460 Please try and see some farms. So that's that's how it happened. 101 00:11:21,460 --> 00:11:32,170 It was. I've come across quite a lot of people who were sort of left wing went on these tours that were organised by the Soviet Friendship Society. 102 00:11:32,170 --> 00:11:38,140 But she went four times is quite interesting thing that she went as alone as a woman. 103 00:11:38,140 --> 00:11:42,160 She turned up in Leningrad as it then was Moscow, 104 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:53,920 where the group of architects and attended a few lectures on plans for the expansion of Leningrad and so on, and talked about architecture. 105 00:11:53,920 --> 00:12:01,200 But then she went down the Volga on her own, messed up with a different group, I think, who were interested in agriculture. 106 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:08,380 And they went to these both the collective land and state farms. 107 00:12:08,380 --> 00:12:17,060 And those were her most well, some of the best known photographs were taken on the collective farm in particular with the women. 108 00:12:17,060 --> 00:12:22,540 Interesting. Interesting. Thank you. And. 109 00:12:22,540 --> 00:12:28,140 So you should do better. It's a great tool, Erica. Like what? I'm too interested in the business of photography. 110 00:12:28,140 --> 00:12:37,210 In how much detail do the icon go? Do they show how much she paid with her materials, how many people she employed as assistants or indeed servants? 111 00:12:37,210 --> 00:12:42,160 Did she have to pay for this to do or was it freely available to her? 112 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:46,950 And thanks for a fascinating tool. You can work, actually. 113 00:12:46,950 --> 00:12:51,190 Well well, there are lots of there's lots of evidence of invoices. 114 00:12:51,190 --> 00:12:57,500 And that's how I was able to calculate how much she was paid per square inch of glass because in the photograph, 115 00:12:57,500 --> 00:13:01,570 in the negative registers, each time a negative is received. 116 00:13:01,570 --> 00:13:04,330 The price paid for it is recorded. 117 00:13:04,330 --> 00:13:13,130 And interestingly, the amount that capital was paid per square inch of glass is the same that her brother was paid before he died. 118 00:13:13,130 --> 00:13:19,840 But he was also given an annual stipend, which I have not found evidence of. 119 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:21,880 There was obviously not time to go into it, 120 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:33,310 but there was a really interesting situation right before Kalpa was hired where the Subcounty Museum was accused of MONNA of a monopoly, 121 00:13:33,310 --> 00:13:38,740 essentially, and unfairly cutting out commercial photographers. 122 00:13:38,740 --> 00:13:45,520 And so because Kirsten Thompson basically had a monopoly on the whole business there. 123 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:56,080 And so hiring Cowper in one way also was a very convenient way to address the criticism because she was a non hire as a woman. 124 00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:04,720 So even though she did all the work this Atkins' did, Museum could say, well, we don't have an official museum photographer anymore. 125 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:11,410 So I think instead of the hundred stipend that Thurston Thomson got, she got room and board. 126 00:14:11,410 --> 00:14:18,220 Remember, she lived at the museum with her kids. So, yes, I mean. 127 00:14:18,220 --> 00:14:24,580 And also, there's this thing about the glass. I want to. I because art has been closed, have been unable to look into it. 128 00:14:24,580 --> 00:14:31,270 But her husband was one of the major chemists to come to work for this company, Chance Brothers. 129 00:14:31,270 --> 00:14:39,680 And they made the glass for these negatives. So I wonder if where you know, where the glasses come from. 130 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:44,800 And that is something I might be able to look up in the correspondence once I'm back on site there at once. 131 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:49,620 The archives open up again. Yes. Maybe a follow up question from Deborah. 132 00:14:49,620 --> 00:14:55,550 Have you looked at Roger Fenton's work as a copy photograph at the British Museum? 133 00:14:55,550 --> 00:15:07,060 No, it's just it's the simple answer to what might happened. That could explain what's not what I should be looking for. 134 00:15:07,060 --> 00:15:14,880 Deborah, do you want to meet yourself right up right? Sorry, that wasn't for Jessica. 135 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:19,080 Sorry. Sorry about that. 136 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:29,910 But she's reference to a Bush offence working at being one of the first people to copy works on his negatives over at the British Museum. 137 00:15:29,910 --> 00:15:33,780 Yes, I haven't read it. Right. Yes. 138 00:15:33,780 --> 00:15:45,850 Is that for me? Yeah. We do have many of Fentons photographs as well in the beat that's had to be in a collection. 139 00:15:45,850 --> 00:15:53,740 Again, there was this really interesting situation where a lot of photographers like Fenton. 140 00:15:53,740 --> 00:15:56,110 There was another guy named Stephen Thompson. 141 00:15:56,110 --> 00:16:03,280 They really took issue with the fact that Thurston Thompson had this monopoly on photographing objects in this national collection, 142 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:13,390 which was meant to be for everybody. So I don't have a lot of information in terms of Cowper and our relationship to Fenton. 143 00:16:13,390 --> 00:16:21,920 But they I know at one point the British Museum's photographic service was also under the supervision of South Kensington Museum. 144 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:31,850 Interesting. And Jessica and Donna is now asking about the collaboration between Rossborough and Ramsey, 145 00:16:31,850 --> 00:16:34,550 and it would be great to hear more about how they work together. 146 00:16:34,550 --> 00:16:43,610 For example, did they collaborate on particular projects or history of woman business partners in studios would be really important research area. 147 00:16:43,610 --> 00:16:48,230 There was a Piaget's spread. Subjects in this in the chat box. 148 00:16:48,230 --> 00:16:56,980 Again, I think I'd love to see that happen. They they had an interesting project and they weren't they weren't cooperatively. 149 00:16:56,980 --> 00:17:02,260 One would look in the studio one day and the other would work in the darkroom. 150 00:17:02,260 --> 00:17:08,150 And then the following day, they said they would print their own photographs. 151 00:17:08,150 --> 00:17:12,360 So I think that we're all to separate, probably. But I just don't know enough about it. 152 00:17:12,360 --> 00:17:17,260 I like to think that some of those photographs were planned. I mean, that's an extraordinary one. 153 00:17:17,260 --> 00:17:31,880 And the book, I say can save money. The. The nude photographs that of the poets should get there in the end. 154 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:40,980 Which I'm sure they must have collaborated on. I can't see them if I can find it. 155 00:17:40,980 --> 00:17:46,020 Yes, it's on. It's this one. Yeah, you can see it. 156 00:17:46,020 --> 00:17:52,510 Yeah. And they were they were they were friends with the Cocklin, right, in the past. 157 00:17:52,510 --> 00:17:56,410 Oh, let Ginzburg certainly. I'm sure they will work together. 158 00:17:56,410 --> 00:17:59,940 And three, I can't imagine that's what it was. 159 00:17:59,940 --> 00:18:06,020 But it's quite remarkable how little my mother talked about that period in Cambridge when she's bringing us up. 160 00:18:06,020 --> 00:18:13,530 She was entirely concentrating on running her student and oxblood, bringing in the dough, really. 161 00:18:13,530 --> 00:18:22,770 And she very rarely looked back. It was very nice when Don Williams actually talked to her and asked her to talk about her previous work. 162 00:18:22,770 --> 00:18:30,900 And she rediscovered herself, I think. And she was living with us in our house and we had the bridge at the time. 163 00:18:30,900 --> 00:18:37,560 So I was very, quite aware of what the what those conversations were going on. 164 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:45,600 She did get she did get very excited, actually. Looking back on how I mean, you know, it to be pointed out how interesting it was. 165 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,990 Thank you. And Erica, another question about woman. 166 00:18:48,990 --> 00:18:55,500 You call it progres photographs. And can you not. 167 00:18:55,500 --> 00:18:57,570 I can't comment too much on it. 168 00:18:57,570 --> 00:19:09,270 I know one of the things I have begun looking into in these photographs registers are many, many notations of coloured by and it has names of women. 169 00:19:09,270 --> 00:19:18,810 So women were employed by the South Kensington Museum to colour photographs and there were records of them in the register. 170 00:19:18,810 --> 00:19:24,480 And that's another topic. They were they also hired women to catalogue photographs. 171 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:29,820 I have lots of records of women who had been assisting a woman who had been assistant to Murali, 172 00:19:29,820 --> 00:19:35,670 was hired to come in because she was obviously very highly qualified to catalogue photographs. 173 00:19:35,670 --> 00:19:41,800 And again, everybody was Paice paid per piece because they couldn't be civil servants. 174 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,650 Interesting. And another maybe for a question by Mary Marry. 175 00:19:45,650 --> 00:19:53,100 Have you been able to find any images made by. And I signed the remit of her employment at the museum. 176 00:19:53,100 --> 00:20:02,430 The answer is no. I have contacted a couple of her descendants and. 177 00:20:02,430 --> 00:20:04,560 Actually, I haven't even been able to find a photograph of her. 178 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:10,770 There's one possible one, but the only photograph I confirmed photograph I have of her is under the cloth. 179 00:20:10,770 --> 00:20:16,080 So, no. And I haven't found evidence of an archive. 180 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:22,370 When she moved up to Glasgow being absorbed by any institution or anything like that. 181 00:20:22,370 --> 00:20:26,830 So no. Thank you, Jessica. 182 00:20:26,830 --> 00:20:35,730 I maybe have a question for you about networks and contacts and about the importance of 183 00:20:35,730 --> 00:20:41,170 reaching out and the importance of being able to talk to people in order to do what you did. 184 00:20:41,170 --> 00:20:45,450 And can. Can you tell us more about that? 185 00:20:45,450 --> 00:20:55,650 You explain quite a bit in your paper about and maybe linking it to Erica's network map that you showed doing your paper. 186 00:20:55,650 --> 00:21:03,460 I mean, and linking it also to Val's comment about. 187 00:21:03,460 --> 00:21:07,890 Making a history of photography through individuals, in a way. 188 00:21:07,890 --> 00:21:15,380 And who decides to do what? When basically. Well, it just don't sort of emerged, really. 189 00:21:15,380 --> 00:21:19,690 I mean. I think I was very lucky. 190 00:21:19,690 --> 00:21:25,190 I made some very I met some really, really nice people and made some very, very nice thumbtacks. 191 00:21:25,190 --> 00:21:30,370 You know, we stayed in touch with each other and it's really showed great interest in it. 192 00:21:30,370 --> 00:21:38,750 I find it quite difficult at the beginning to convince myself, quite apart from anyone else, that I was doing something serious. 193 00:21:38,750 --> 00:21:48,690 I wanted it to be quiet. You know, I wanted to be. It was my memoir. But I wanted it to be sort of academic. 194 00:21:48,690 --> 00:21:54,640 And I'm quite careful to to to try and not make it seem sort of chatty. 195 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:59,910 And yet I wanted to portray her life as well as her work. 196 00:21:59,910 --> 00:22:04,150 So it was just I was constantly thinking about these things as I was doing it. 197 00:22:04,150 --> 00:22:09,410 And then people signed up. I had a wonderful day with Duncan, folks. 198 00:22:09,410 --> 00:22:15,520 So I he was just, you know, were just pulling photographs of the shelves and looking at them. 199 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:19,340 And he was explaining, exclaiming over them. And that was very, very nice. 200 00:22:19,340 --> 00:22:25,300 And it was like that when everyone knew that you got involved, really. 201 00:22:25,300 --> 00:22:32,720 So, you know, I was constantly give him, you know. 202 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:38,010 Made to believe I was doing a very worthwhile project. Mm hmm, interesting. 203 00:22:38,010 --> 00:22:41,520 I'm so sorry. There's too couple two other questions up came up. 204 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,980 But we are now out of time and we need to go to lunch break. 205 00:22:45,980 --> 00:22:52,170 So I'm very sorry. Mark and Ellie, maybe we'll have time later on doing the today to ask those questions. 206 00:22:52,170 --> 00:23:01,560 Depending on timing. But I think we should maybe now take a short break and and go and eat something and come back at 130. 207 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:09,524 Thank you so very much. Eric and Jessica, for such fascinating papers and and for such generous answers to the questions.