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Thank you both fascinating papers that really highlighted Spence and Salties trusts and interests.

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The conversation between Gerry Spence and Rosewater was really something I was keen on in order to showcase their techniques,

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methods and ways of working for themselves, but also for but also and maybe also bovell for others.

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Recurring in transversal adieus could be collaboration and collectiveness, selfish and self representation.

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The importance of print of the printed matter. Books and magazines.

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Photo tech chirality. Writing as empowerment reusing. Over and over again of their language, their own words.

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And no own vocabulary. And obviously idea of the archive.

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So. And how the archive and the existence becomes central for recognition, as you stated, Deborah.

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So maybe we can start we can open to two questions.

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And I would like to maybe highlight that for and thank you for for speaking about you find us at length and speaking about Joe Dorje Gregory's project

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to do a sort of British viewfinders and say that about it's so important and I really hope we'll be able to find some money in the future to do it.

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And so I look at the. Yes.

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CheckBox for questions and let you all think about it.

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But I maybe have a question for Patricia about at the beginning of your paper, you talked about language and value,

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and I found that so interesting because we've been talking about the language

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you saw and should use in order to address those questions and those themes.

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And I would think that Joe Spence was one of those people that was really

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thinking about the words she used and the link it had it would have with body.

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Can you maybe talk about a very readable. Yes.

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Thank you. Tell us to the question. Spence was always very aware of of issues of class and issues of language.

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She was one of the autobiographical details.

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I was fascinated by was how so she went.

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She went to school, didn't do particularly well, but her parents managed to send her to a secretarial course, but they had to pay for.

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And one of the first things that she had to learn and the secretary, of course,

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was to me to lose a working class accent and to learn to speak properly, which is one of the things that sometimes one notices.

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And if you watch TV shows or having interviews, she actually doesn't speak like a working class.

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One would expect working class London to sound because she knows she's really hunkered down, sort of proper kind of Queen's English.

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And and also, she was very torn about this issue.

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What do you mean for her to acquire a degree full stop?

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Does that mean. Did that mean that then it was some kind of almost threatening situation of working class roots?

31
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Because naturally, to a degree, she was a professional. She you.

32
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She was now. Was she then now middle class.

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And I'm I'm always very struck. Always been very struck by the clarity of her language.

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I think she was very aware of how language can become a way to exclude other people.

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And I think this at every level in terms of accent, in terms of speech, in terms of word one uses.

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And so there is this clear strategy of maintaining Disturbia accessible.

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For her, text always be very accessible. But also she's an educator throughout.

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So actually, although there is this kind of idea of, you know, the image of sources, she's actually always very careful at pointing out her sources.

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And she points out to sources not because she's showing off.

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Oh, I right. Grab she oh, I write, you know, whatever.

41
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Fray. But because she then can enable you to go and read them and then learn for yourself way where you can kind of acquire that same knowledge.

42
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So there was always this educational project into CBT. This I think was very, very.

43
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Important throughout her work,

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the kind of the principle that it was to educate Hodges and to make that education available to Eidos in a sense freely outside of academia.

45
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Interesting and. If your papers really made me think of them.

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This idea of networks that has been occurring today and the idea of networks are constructed,

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constructed either through the idea of family, friends, partners, lovers.

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And how.

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Bouffe spends Joe Spens and more Psalter really worked at constructing these networks of people around them and and working for them and with them.

50
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And can you maybe both. Addressed this a little bit.

51
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Yeah, I'm happy to say,

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because I see that's a that's a question up on chat that says what happens to collaborative networks after they cease to be active in scholarly work,

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help preserve them against the pressures of the art market?

54
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Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really, really difficult question about how you preserve those networks and also what is it that would preserve them?

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What kind of materials would preserve them? So is it going to be just the documents?

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Is it going to be oral histories? Is it going to be the question of memory?

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And then what? I mean, fortunately, many of the people are still alive now, but in 20 years, that may not be the case.

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And some of both portraits I'm seeing portraits, another gold screen.

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We've we've both worked with artists who we can't go back to anymore and say, but what did happen then?

60
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How did that work? So I think there are a lot of really, really difficult questions about preserving those often very fragile, often very changeable.

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And yet also you can see with mould sort of, which has a long history of working with certain people time and time again.

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So, you know, I think I think it's a really, really, really important.

63
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Yes. And Curran's just course of history for me.

64
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Yeah. Ridgen document. So it needs to be written and published. I would, yeah.

65
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Right. Do you agree? Well, I find this particularly.

66
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Oh, I feel particularly ambivalent about that. On the one hand, as I was trying to indicate in my paper.

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So women artists need the recognition. They need that the art deal that they need to major introspective exhibitions, they need all that.

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But because of the way in which the art market works, which is about the great individual,

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often what is left is actually the idea of the networks to collaborate and the people, the people,

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the other people that the great taste worked with, and that this is not a question of geniuses in isolation,

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but actually of moments where the circumstances are such that these reproductive networks can be formed and can thrive.

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And that's kind of quite tough.

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I mean, if you look online how just Spense work is captioned, for example, is very variable with our collaborators I've mentioned or not.

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And why the risk is the way it is.

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Know the kind of the category of who is dissed by and even archive or a lot of the archival system identify one also who steals.

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And those questions can be quite complicated sometimes. Yes.

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And I know he's saying the ideology. Daniel Oji of the Genius Artist is so restrictive and so exclusive.

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And and I'm saying we need to make publishing and networking processes more evident and obvious in photographic education.

79
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Which is also an interesting point about education. And Deborah mentioned al-Sisi as being a key element in this history, which is interesting to.

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Sorry. There was no question about it. Are there any plans to reap reprint passion?

81
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And I'd love to hear more about Geria, particularly the soundtrack that I think was the installation.

82
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That's a question from Catherine. On their own.

83
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I think that different groups of young artists are planning various projects around his passion and maybe re publishing.

84
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I don't think so much republishing it is reinventing in terms of it.

85
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But I've I just I know of a few, but I don't know what what what will come of them or how they might work.

86
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Indeed, there were created several soundtracks. Several.

87
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Musical performative poetry soundtracks for exhibitions and yes,

88
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that would be great to help to find some way of sharing those more generally in the future.

89
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I actually did release a secret. She released some of them, a C.D. but they're very limited supply now.

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Yeah. Carter is saying,

91
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I'm really interested in the family album work by Spence and analysis of how particular images erased the nature of working class lives.

92
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Is there other work that has been done in this area and wonder how this area can is can is being looked at in the digital age?

93
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Well, I know that France is happily emerging scholar.

94
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Is working on working class women and that presence in photography and their voice in art in general, British working class women.

95
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I think it's a complicated. It's a complex issue, partly because of this dynamic that Spence was talking about,

96
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of how to get to, on the one hand, gain a foothold in to an area which is.

97
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Quite carefully. In a sense, circumscribed. Often a profession of art, of being a photographer.

98
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And then how do you keep your working class?

99
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You know, the whole issue of definition of what is working class is is up for.

100
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For a kind of I think a re think in terms of what does it actually mean?

101
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What might mean today? And kind of did two questions in a way, coming to that.

102
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Yeah. Interesting. We have a question. Right, cameleer.

103
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That was great, different, much alter is a wonderful inspiration for me.

104
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I wanted to ask you about her activism. She was very keen to create new visual iconography of black women.

105
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So I wondered how she navigated through carving space in the art establishment and creating your own space as a black woman artist.

106
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Yeah, absolutely. Fantastic. Custom. Thank you so much.

107
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I think that's just throughout her work. I mean, I think one of the most dramatic ways that she did it, of course, was with support,

108
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where she took these nine creative black women from a range of different, ah, writing performance music and created these fabulous images.

109
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And that she she she made them look as close to artwork as she could notice to the whole heritage of European portraiture.

110
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She surrounded them with massive gold frames and that she was she very much wanted to participate in this kind of synergy.

111
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Which is part of that photographic moment between fine art and photography and making these very bold images.

112
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And I think she did it actually through the kinds of images she created and the ways that she presented them, how she presented them.

113
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So so using these these frames and then she had these inscribed titles, the names of the muses underneath each one.

114
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So she very much she used that art gallery way of presenting the work so that she could insert the minutes.

115
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She was very conscious and some of the work that she did.

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Again, at Rochdale, this is so important in this history that she was able to research the ways that black figures appeared in art.

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And she was looking at the ways that they were marginalised. The black servant, that the service figure is pushed to the side and is undergoing,

118
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you know, some routine in which that they're always offering something to the white figure.

119
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So she wanted to completely unravel,

120
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laughed and took to completely transform that and to actually put these black when creators right in the centre of the frame.

121
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She says that she wants to put them in the centre of the frame.

122
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And in the centre of the institution.

123
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And she she continues different ways of working and doing that, whether she's working in photography, whether she's working in collage.

124
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Would she then say interested in taking a small collage and enlarging it to make it a gallery work?

125
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So I think she's got lots and lots of artistic strategies for creating a new official iconography of black women.

126
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I think she does it in lots of ways. And she just so where the spaces that she's working in and what she can do with those spaces.

127
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So thank you for your question. Thank you.

128
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Oh, sorry. Patricia, do you want to stay? I was just going to say it's very interesting how they were both very aware of strategies of representation,

129
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made sense almost, that their op was detained. Spence was always defiantly cheap.

130
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No, no frames. Plastic Lamby nations. No agreement was.

131
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But they were both kind of very conceited about why things have to be presented the way in which they were being presented.

132
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It was never just a kind of afterthought. Interesting.

133
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Thank you. Thank you both for your great comments and answers.

134
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I think we can, you know, have a short break before the fourth panel.