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I have a couple of questions for you. And then we'll just open to defraud, because I'm sure people have this question for you.

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But reflecting on today's themes and subjects and conversations, and because you both, well,

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Firecracker and Fastforward operate as collectives of sorts, at least rely on cooperation.

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I wanted to really ask you the question about the place of collectiveness in and in your practise in Firecracker and in Fastforward.

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And maybe in short, the question might be, is unity strength?

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Totally, yes. I mean, I come from a background of working in, you know, I guess in the most famous photo collective.

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So for me, it's all I've ever really known. Is that sort of out of collaboration?

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And even though, you know, in a way, firecracker is just it is just me.

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It's not really just me. There's an entire network of amazing women.

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I mean, Max just being one of them.

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But I mean, it's at least three of them on this conference that are regular contributors and supporters very much, you know, behind the scenes.

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Max already mentioned Hannah. I know show is on on the call.

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Emma Lewis from Tate. I mean, there's there's a whole host of women in photography that are incredibly supportive of one another.

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And actually, it's funny in a way that Anna and I don't cross over more.

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I'm sure we'd like to. It just hit the pause of a crossed and quite formal way.

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But, you know, certainly have been huge admirers.

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What Fastforward has been doing over the last couple of years and conferences are incredible and much incredible academic standard as well,

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which is it's really incredible to see.

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And I think that there's just a real appetite and a real love, I think, for for people coming together and having these shared experiences.

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And and, yeah, sharing sharing that the love for an industry that we're all incredibly fond of.

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Yeah, I mean, I totally agree and yes, I'm sure we will do something at some point, we definitely need.

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It makes, you know, this this idea of doing things collectively, but but also but collectively networking and sharing.

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I mean, this thing of the you know, this thing of an old boys club in photography is really true.

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And, uh, you know, we need to sort of look at it and see how it works.

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I mean, I don't necessarily think we need to copy it because it's has you know, it's suspicious in a way.

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But I think sharing is really important. I mean, during one of our workshops, one of the participants, Diana Lee,

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said that she noticed that we were kept repeating each other's names and other and other names of women in photography.

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And she asked why we were doing that. And I don't think we were where we were doing it.

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But I realise and again, going back to I think what Erica mentioned, the rule of seven repeating of names relates to the rule of seven.

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And I specially think it's important for women photographers.

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I think women editors and curators are probably pretty good at sharing and promoting women Telfords.

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But I think as women photographers, we need to do that for each other as well.

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Thank you. And going back to your remark, a guy maybe not copying the ways of doing things of this club.

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I was wondering about this woman in photographs. It can be a theme, but it can also be a practise.

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And I was trying to address that in my instruction as feminism, as a practise to doing things within photography.

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And I was thinking about feminist praksis and feminist methods and behaviours

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and ways of doing things in order to change this industry and this outworld,

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let's say. Can you tell us more about this?

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It's complicated, isn't it? I mean, again, going back to what VAO said about rere re defining our idea of career.

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I think a lot of the definitions for what we do are defined by patriarchal society.

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And this is a problem for both men and women. It's not just a problem for women. It's more of a problem for women, but it's a problem for all of us.

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And so taking things apart and not being afraid to take things apart and examine them, I think is really, really significant.

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And I mean. We need to collaborate also with people from other fields like business or sociology or psychology or whatever,

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to find out why certain things happen and how we can work against these aspects of patriarchal society.

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You know, even though even the word feminism can be problematic, I think there was a I I'm pretty sure portrait's here.

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It was talked about in Patricia's talk about Gerry Spence.

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You know, it can it can put some people off. And so, you know, I mean, I'm not saying it should, but it's there are lots of difficulties.

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In between the idea of saying female Stover's and women's toters. You know, listen, there are difficulties,

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but I think we have to start by taking views about and by listening to people outside of our own fields, listening to people in other fields.

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I mean, I think it's been really interesting watching what has happened to women in the field of literature,

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because I think women in comedy, for example, I mean, literature seems to have made some very big strides.

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The film industry is incredibly slow. You know, why aren't.

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Why is it like this? You know, why is it slower in some places and faster in others?

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I think language is also quite important when we're sort of talking about this.

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I mean, before we we did the presentation, Max and I were coming back to the book and, you know, even 2017.

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And that wasn't even really that long ago. But there's language in there that, you know, feels outdated now.

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I mean, even even the title female photographers now, not women photographers now still, you know, that also feels a little bit challenging.

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And, you know, you have someone like Ginelli in there that has been so vocal about, you know, gender fluidity around that.

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And, you know, it feels almost feels wrong to, you know, to have that kind of association.

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And by nature, the word feminist.

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That's that's I mean, lots of people would argue that that is you know, that would be a terminology that would be anti gender fluidity.

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So, you know, I think that the language is also something that we need to keep revisiting.

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Perhaps, yes. Slightly develop a way of speaking. And then suddenly the rug pulled from underneath either.

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And you will say it's like it's constantly changing, whereas, you know, in a way that's the wizardry of the patriarchy.

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Interesting. Maxine, you want to say something?

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Yeah, I mean, just in terms of of women photographers, I've always felt it's grammatically wrong and that's my problem with that.

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I'm all for the most inclusive definitions of everything.

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I certainly think that, yeah, I found that that collaboration is just natural.

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I don't really see the point in doing anything on on my own.

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I always like to work with other voices and that that's really sort of the root of why.

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And David Burkin and I began Vesicle Justice as a research hub,

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not to hear our own voices projected out there in the world, but to work across disciplines as well.

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And it was saying, you know, we specifically invited lawyers, activists, policymakers, etc., journalists,

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not just people working with the visual, you know, teachers and present people who work in prisons.

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And it's Fender's people, humans together into a room.

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And yes, you might use the visual as a kind of a springboard. And I feel like that's what I've done always.

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I used the visual as a springboard. But to do it.

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Yeah, I think that's why it has such power and that it can be a really good starting point.

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But yeah, it's about opening. The conversation is as widely as we can.

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Mm hmm. Interesting. I'm very interested in the various conversations we had today about language and the use the word we use,

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which is a kind of bit of an obsession of mine.

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And I obviously, when I joined the two Oxford team and this idea of women were in this and what it means to be

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women and how how how we can maybe explode the word and make it as inclusive as possible,

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but also. I don't want to give up the word feminism either.

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Maybe not as a as. I don't know.

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Maybe not as a label, but as a way of actually living it and actually changing practises and changing methods.

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So it doesn't have to be a big word that people might be scared of.

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In a way, I don't really care if people get scared of it. But I really think we need to change ways of working sometimes.

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And this can be a great tool and it has a great literature around it.

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And people that wrote about it, that are great inspirations. And so I get why it, in my view, scary word for a lot of people.

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But I also think that since 2017, things change a great deal and that it's getting more accepted and it makes sense in a way to maybe reshape it,

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play with it, own it and and use it in our work.

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I don't know. What do you think? Yes.

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Yes, I agree. I agree. I mean, somebody mentioned and I don't want to highlight any particular guy,

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but somebody mentioned there weren't many men in the in the meeting today.

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That has been the same at that summit. Most of the conferences I think this is a really interesting point.

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And I think we need to think about how we make this like important mainstream discussion.

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Yeah. Even I did. And I just find it.

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I mean, first I find it funny and then I find it annoying and then I find it sad.

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I mean, like I say, pretty welcome to the guys that are here. So we say, I'm not angry with you.

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I just find it crazy. And I think that is because it's obviously it's not.

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The thing that we're trying to do is have established practise. I believe I genuinely believe that we are doing here together today.

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But because it's let us now praise famous women, then men think that it isn't to them that previously,

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you know, with with all the events, there will always men only just because they didn't used the word men.

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Then obviously everybody went along and. How do you how you deal with that?

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I don't know.

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Apart from the fact that we're all deeply fascinating and everyone should want to listen to us because, you see, I don't know how you get to that.

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I don't know how you make it not feel exclusive and uncertainty.

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You know, I'm talking about men, but obviously, I mean,

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gender fluid people and especially and I hate that nobody feels excluded from this, but I think that that.

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Yeah. I think there's a lot of work to do. And I'm not entirely sure how to begin that.

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I think some of the maxim I did a conference and called it a couple of years ago,

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and one of the speakers that we invited was was Bruno Fromm's of Publish Be Happy.

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He's not only an incredible speaker, Boz is a hugely knowledgeable about the canon of career photography.

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And I think just for me, it comes back to that practise and getting into good habits about how we how we broaden the story.

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And maybe when we create these sorts of platforms and these these conferences, then maybe in a way there's a there's a limitation to only having,

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you know, female or female identifying or or feminist voices on the on the panel.

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Maybe maybe it would be advisable.

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Why don't we all look at who is championing women in these different industries?

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And perhaps it's not just us. I mean, I guess there are other people out there but don't maybe look like us.

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But all of, you know, equally vocal about championing women from all different practises and men and walks of life.

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Hmm, interesting. I wanted to talk about money a little bit, too, because it's a subject both of you addressed,

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obviously, while both organisation address and firecracker through their grants since 2012.

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Right. And obviously an a.

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And fast forward through different endeavours. Can we talk about how.

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I mean, it class money and being able to sustain a practise is at the core of everything, really.

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So would you mind addressing this subject and letting us know about what you

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do for this and what you maybe advice for young men coming and photograph is?

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Who is the big one? It is.

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I think you have to get on and make as many applications as possible with time and learn.

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I mean, I've learnt from my peers and the people of generation above me of how important it

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is to apply things and how important it is not to be depressed about being rejected.

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It's part of the business. And I think we have to teach this.

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And I really I really do think we have to make things as those of us involved in education and those of us writing or publishing for education.

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We need to make these things as visible as possible through our conversations and our educational publishing.

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Now, how to how to make things happen.

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I think it's been really refreshing in the last couple of years that we were much more aware of the diversity and inclusion conversation.

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But I do feel like in a way, class is really the last thing you need to to to really be addressed in terms of, you know, in in the arts.

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And there's amazing people that know coming out of that, like white people.

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And the other new platform started by Joanna Cote's in Yorkshire to try out a lot with amazing stories like Huston McKay, Scottish photographer,

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who all starting to try to challenge the perception of class within within the arts more broadly and trying to,

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you know, not only look at it from a sort of, you know, maybe a racial angle, but also starting to sort of challenge.

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Yeah. What it what what what does it mean to choose to to try to have a a a career in in a

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notoriously competitive but also incredibly challenging financially career in the arts or

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in media or in the creative industries and and other amazing charities that are doing

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great work to try to support different voices coming in from different different angles.

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And so we're not just constantly sort of talking to the same pool of pool of people, because I think we probably all find that, you know,

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I mean, you probably find that when you do your conferences, Max and I, we've we've done as a LCAC or the record of one a couple years ago.

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It does it does tend to be that similar audiences.

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So now we get the get the word out there to add to a broader audience and start to start to include much, much more wider voices.

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Again, I think it starts much lower down in the chain. You know, arts education is sidelined right from the word go.

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And, you know, we need better support from it comes from education, from government,

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from, you know, from the government's attitude, if you like, what their policies are.

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Sorry. Could be the word for the arts. And I understand the arts have been moved more and more sideways in education from primary stages onwards.

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And music even worse. You know, some people can't take don't even take an arts subject does any option.

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So you it's about a society's attitude. Really? Absolutely.

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Yeah. There's great charities coming out now. Like I said, an amazing one could create London who specialise in what specifically for the London,

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but working with disadvantaged kids, not not at the university level, but, you know, a little bit younger,

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which I think is that is part of the key consideration is what age are we sort of targeting people to to try

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to broaden their opportunity and create work with young Londoners to sort of identify realistic pathways,

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paint pathways into into the arts and into the creative industries.

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And I think that's a really key thing. You know,

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the the big institutions and more some of the commercial side can can have a much

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greater impact on things like that by giving people like paid opportunities.

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And I and I think the work that we've been doing, I've only been at Webber since March, but the work that we've been doing to try to,

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you know, look outside of that, the existing sort of pool of either photographers or talent or or or staff even,

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and looking at the different charities that some specialise in recruitment for from a pool of people that we might not touch

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otherwise and create a really great charity that specialise in trying to give realistic opportunities to young Londoners.

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So that's one of the guys doing it. You know, it's just that it's really exciting.

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I was full of admiration, excitement, and then immediately disappointed in the sense that it's so limited and as a line it's on London.

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So, you know what? The other great cities of the U.K., but even more so and I feel this strongly because I live in a rural situation.

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The rural communities are just cut out. And it's really interesting when you go somewhere.

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I mean, it's difficult to make generalisations, but I know, for example, in France,

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the people in rural communities know about photography and they know about arms.

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You know, how did they do that and why can't we do it?

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You know, all these things are so different, you know, country by country.

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But we need to look at the places where there are good examples and good role models, you know?

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You know, Nordic countries are sweet.

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You know, Sweden, Finland, endemically places where women have better rights people, the countries we should look to for their practises.

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You know, it's we don't spend enough time looking at other people and how they do things.

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But I was struck I've worked quite a lot in France and spent a lot of time.

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I was always struck by the way that rural communities knew who photographers were.

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Are your days like an. A lot of conversation in the chat box and loads of people talking about Loeser very interesting things like age,

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for example, and I said that Rosie made a comment about that. And it's also interesting because obviously there's a young upcoming photograph.

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But also, I mean, it is also very a subject that needs to be addressed in in a poll because we think

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recognitions and process of recognitions for people that had a long career.

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Okay, I'll start and read questions I. So we have a question from Sharon.

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And she writes, Speaking personally, collaboration and networking are beyond possibilities due to child care and family commitments.

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What what would the panel say to a sole traders really based,

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working four hours a day during two term time and with no income to speak of to keep the collaborative dream alive?

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Other than sitting in a conference like this? Fantastic. Yes. But also feels like looking through a remote window on another world altogether.

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Wish I could find that question in the chart was floating the questions earlier.

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Now, I can't I can't find it. Guys. I mean, it's.

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Yeah. She's talking from a rural situation, isn't she?

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Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it can be pretty desperate.

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I have to say, I remember when I started out, I was in a rural situation.

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I'm back in a rural situation again now. I've been to London and lucky enough, you know, mate, I've been to other places as well.

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But it's very hard. But I would only say that, you know, start something.

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One has to start something with a group of people don't necessarily have to be photographers

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like the other creatives or people who can help each other who are interested in creativity.

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I would just start something. With like minded people.

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Yeah. And we can learn from Mode Soltan, Joe Spens and others, it's doing.

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Doing it in a way. And there's an amazing online platform called Photo Scratch That.

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And LCAC alumna Hannah Katrina Atrous runs and it's free and at the moment it's online.

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Sure, it used to be in London, but now it's online, one tiny benefit of the pandemic and it's free to do work in progress.

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Great. You just apply. And, you know, like minded people leave comments, constructive comments about your work.

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I think platforms like that are really encouraging in a way to feel part of a community.

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Yeah, I guess if you can engage in any learning game, perhaps online.

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I mean, we have to sort of take what we can with this virtual virtual world, I think, and being a space active up to a point on.

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On social media and making people who don't live in rural places envious with the beauty of your surroundings.

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Is it? It's a starting point and that's a talking point. You know, the benefits of living outside of the city on mental mental health and wellbeing.

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Joe Coates writes about quite a lot on her blog, for example. I think it's a pretty interesting way of engaging people.

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To say that the rural aspect doesn't feel like something that is excluded means you're excluded

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from the life that actually gives you already kind of positive way to be to be part of it.

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Thank you for your answers. We have another question from Elisa.

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Thanks for bringing in the money topic. Do we know more about gender based discrimination in wages, in photographing?

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No one I did. We probably do, actually. I think there's lots of disconnected research that needs to be connected up with.

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Maybe fewer donors or Max knows. I'm not sure that I know enough.

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There has been some research, but not enough. I mean, from from a practitioner's perspective,

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I'm not aware that there's a great deal of disparity between what a male photographer would

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be paid and what a female photographer paid the 16 years I've been working in photography.

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The rights of I mean, the rights are another topic.

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And the value that we place on photography is another separate topic.

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But I've not really experienced a disconnect between the value a male photographer would be would be paid enough and a female photographer.

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That's thankfully something I'm not not have to know how to challenge that one yet.

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That's probably the case. You know, if if the FTC is giving someone a sheet, I'm sure that they pay them the same.

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But just in terms of the wider out, well, you know, these artworks are worth more than it's going to be.

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The people who have had the solo shows that the the big museums and as we now know, as the gorilla guys have told us,

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that it mostly men and say there's definitely and it's and I'm pretty sure in terms of I'm a female and male academics,

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you know, that was the phase when just there were millions of male professors that obviously,

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as Earl is still still there and, you know, a lot of very senior academic positions are all male.

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I think I mean, obviously not exclusively.

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And there are professors on this on this panel and certainly in this room and say, yes, but I think that it is.

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But yes, I don't have I don't have the research on general rates, but I think that, you know, just like society and yet it's unequal and.

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Yes. Women and. People of colour.

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And, you know, people with disabilities and queer people. Yeah.

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Usually. Not at the top end of that of that money thing.

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That's a fact. Interesting is saying there is a gap in the market and a lot of freebie culture.

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Yeah, that comes bite down to the accessibility.

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And I think that the issue of inclusion in photography, you know, there's certain photographers that can't afford to give away that their IP for free.

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And there are lots of other photographers that are working at the top ends of

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the of that market and see the visibility exercise as being good marketing.

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And then then it becomes the secular problem where you've got, you know, very successful photographers giving away rights to books and,

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you know, creating their own books that they can afford to pay for, that they can afford to give away the press images for.

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And then it creates this cycle of devaluing the work that we we all strive to produce.

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So there's there's a bigger question, I think, around the value that we place on photography.

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And I noticed that Kyly points out. But I mean, it is a fact that I think women get less paid opportunities.

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I guess the point I'm making is that when there is a paid opportunity,

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I have an experience there being no one right for the guys and one right for the girls.

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But yeah, for sure, there are less women being being given those paid opportunities, although I slightly do feel like it's it's changing.

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It's slow. And I think there's always more that can be done.

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But I have noticed more women or people of colour role with disabilities being

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being given those opportunities that may have been given out to the you know,

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to the white male photographers that, you know, we we will we will know about.

255
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Yeah, it's interesting because listening to you, too, I.

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The question or the demand that we need to have is about complexity.

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We can't have that like opposites working against each other.

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Or or or. And it's about making everything complex from our language.

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The words we use, the vocabulary we use, the structures we work in and and making,

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trying to demand for more time and energy and funding and money for those conversations to become more complex and inclusive.

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And and that's how the work. I guess.

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Yeah, again, it's very different from place to place, isn't it?

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It's really interesting to get out and find out or not get out necessarily.

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We can't do that now.

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But, you know, somehow find out about all the different models, you know, because knowing more about the different funding models,

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business models, you know, for example, again, Finland has an artist's salary.

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You know, knowing about these means that one can help to direct energy towards trying to get

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similar things or or different things that are a value in one's own communities.

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There's someone here saying that they've graduated from a class of 18 and now only two are working in the creative industries.

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Well, you know, I'm really. Again, I go back to education, I think in the last five or ten, maybe 10 years.

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I think photography courses have developed more and more of an interest, as have probably all art courses in what people do when they graduate.

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And focussing on professional practise and how to include it in their curricula.

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And I think prior to that, it wasn't included very much because art schools were a very different kind of place to the ones they are now.

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You know, there's lots of things I approve of in the new the new art school model is lots of things I don't like as well.

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But I think developing professional practise on how photographers have got to have they've really got to have careers full of different things.

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You can't necessarily just be a photographer. I mean, some people can, but it's very few people who can.

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So making this a realism, you know, a realistic part of the dialogue with students right from the beginning, I think is really, really important.

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I mean, I once heard somebody say, and not that long ago that I'm only interested in in training people to be photographers.

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Well, it's just ridiculous with a class. I mean, even a class of 18.

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But some B.A. classes are much bigger than that. So. We have to think about how we teach people about professional practise.

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Yeah, very much. I mean, like, my new class is 50. Just thought I'd mention that.

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Just nice and terrifying for them for the new year. It's great that people are coming into education.

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But, yeah, what you do with the creative skills you learn. I think that us as a country nationally, I think it's so misunderstood.

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And, you know, the chancellor's comments and the ad campaign, I let let's not even go there.

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But just in terms of a fundamental misunderstanding of the power of the arts, you know, we live in this visual culture,

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and yet that's only seen as this kind of social media kind of film industry thing,

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as opposed to being almost a part of a philosophy in politics where it can actually change discourse.

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As you know, some of the many people in this conference today have spoken about the ways in which people like J.

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Jay spent, for example, how work can literally change change thought.

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And I just think that it isn't valued. I don't think the arts are valued properly in this country.

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So let's campaign to change it. We have another question.

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Could the panellists say what new kinds of art in photographs they will be looking forward to seeing develop in coming years?

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Or is that fair to say in relation to individuals work? Sorry I missed that.

294
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Would you mind saying that again? I'm so sorry. Yes, about you knew were you looking forward to seeing it in coming years?

295
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New directions, new perspectives.

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I guess I'm I'm I'm really interested in how artists find using new levels and sort of collaboration and storytelling in their work.

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Max and I are doing a show and hopefully doing a show in Bristol in May,

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which looks at that exact topic about how you either provide your subjects with with agency or

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you're indeed working like Peyton Fulford is working with in your own community to tell their story,

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but also versions thereof of your own.

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But that's the kind of work that I'm I'm really excited about. The moment is, is women, mostly women that are all female identified,

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that are looking at their own communities or finding new collaborative ways of telling telling stories about the other.

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Interesting. We have another question.

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And how many photographic platforms offered prises scholarships for school age children engage in photograph arts?

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Do you know about that? Probably no. Yeah. Well, I'm going to go with not not enough.

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I think we looked at this one. I think I even looked at this one when I was at Magnum and we were looking at ways to engage schoolchildren.

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It's incredibly difficult to engage school age children in this country,

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partly because of the obviously the natural restrictions on accessing schools.

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But it was a real challenge. And actually it was that it was a total barrier to attempt to being, you know, to pursuing it.

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I think I gave up shortly. I thought the budget year of the project was I mean, it was like a sort of.

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Well, actually, it was a little bit like shower and photo Wax's festival and a box.

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So they were printed a three panels that were almost sort of.

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What you got was that was not mounted.

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Oh, was between two. Was a three panels that was sort of laminated that you send it to schools that look different.

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Parents there, history told through photography so that the schools could then engage their own stories

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and sort of curate their own shows by sort of pinning them up around the class ferrymen.

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We were looking at civil rights in America.

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We're looking at the Second World War through the Magnum Archives.

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But then having that,

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the teachers empowered to tell the curriculum through visuals and a whole bunch of funding can get anywhere from quite a few projects.

321
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Again, we just don't know about this is going to be things I know. Autograph Kostic.

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So education books, which is not not exactly like that you're talking about.

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You know, it's it's a wonderful thing that when schools and I know lots of individual photographers and artists will have had projects with schools.

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I mean, I run a really great fun home with my local school when I first moved to the city.

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And so I think there is a history of it probably that we don't know.

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And again, if we don't know, if we don't have role models for how things work.

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And this is really, really applies to women in photography, which is why the visibility factor is really, really important.

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If we don't have the visibility on how people have made their careers work and made that work.

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We have nothing to model anything on. So these these are really important questions.

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But they draw me back to thinking about how important it is to record, say, rediscover all these things.

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And I think it's a pretty important thing.

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I mean, I know there's people from all over the world here to be interesting, to hear stories from other countries.

333
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But I know firsthand this is a problem for the whole of photography in the UK, not just for women, but it's very important for women in photography.

334
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This today is incredibly important. I think it's a record.

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Should it? If the conversations are recorded. But, you know, it's gonna be a wonderful results.

336
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And a lot of people are sharing and they have different projects and collectives and websites.

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So, yes, I've tried to make sense out of it and put it maybe online or something, and I'll keep you all in touch.

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I'd like to finish and we are now almost out of time, but I'd like to finish with Quest with a bit of a quotation maybe, and then ask you.

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Are you hoping for your organisations to become somehow somehow irrelevant?

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So not again. Are you hoping for your organisations to become irrelevant?

341
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Yes. Well, in terms of the fact that we don't need them anymore.

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It's a provocation. I'm I'm I'm just I'm just yeah, I wanted to finish on this on this kind of remark,

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is that the aim that we don't no longer have need to have this kind of.

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Conferences and talks and organisations.

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And I don't know, it's again, the thing is for us women photography face is not just about campaigning for women.

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So know, we've talked about that a lot. It is a subject and it'll always be a subject.

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There's a legacy that even if it becomes irrelevant because we have equality, which will be magnificent.

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It's it's there's a legacy and it's a subject area that's really, really important.

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So it may be a relevance, not the right words.

350
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I mean, I hope we do need to be fighting for equality for many, many years.

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But I hope what we've done is always relevant. Yeah, I think that the ways in which we're working, you know.

352
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I mean, we're talking firecrackers, firecracker.

353
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I really hate that firecracker continues and the ways of working, which it champions that kind of collaboration and that kind of the community's idea.

354
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Now, I really hate that that that becomes a feature and.

355
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Yeah. I really do. Just that. Maybe we don't have to. And in set. Why it's like like female or like women.

356
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Because it is the age in which we'll operate.

357
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You know, baby, it takes a village idea. I don't know.

358
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I feel maybe I fit, but maybe I have a slightly different take on it.

359
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I wrote in the forward to the book that I often feel quite uncomfortable about firecracker being of female or female identifying only platform.

360
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I wrote about. I wrote about the sort of the dichotomy and the and the.

361
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Yeah. I guess that the challenge of trying to, you know, be forward thinking and trying to and trying not to alienate and trying to, you know,

362
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as we talked about earlier, about not creating a female platform that is then only looked at by,

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you know, by female or female identifying photographers.

364
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But I mean, maybe maybe I think I was right that the sort of hype where it will always be relevant,

365
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but perhaps that's sort of that the need to champion will be slightly less.

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I think maybe maybe the hope would be that we will always come together like this, because with women, we enjoy collaborating with one another.

367
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And it's, you know, it's a great network and and there's pleasure in it.

368
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And but maybe from a sort of professional perspective,

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I do hope that there's less need for us to sort of come together like this from an opportunity perspective.

370
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I guess. Thank you.

371
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And I'm just looking at the chat box to make sure that I did not miss any questions because there was a lot of conversations going on,

372
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but I don't think there was any direct questions. I don't think so.

373
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Alex, do you see one that Francesca Provenzano has her hand up so we can ask you if it's a very brief question, Francesca.

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We're nearly out of time, but but to go ahead, if you can, unroot yourself.

375
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We're not hearing it from. Okay, well, maybe I'm Cesca. Sorry, I'm not hearing that.

376
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So. OK.

377
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No mistaking hand in that case.

378
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Well, thank you all for your great papers today and for the great conversations, and I hope we'll be able to continue this conversation.

379
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I know that there will be conferences through Fastforward and books to look for 30 Firecracker.

380
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And and please do and have a look at the four to Oxford Festival Web site, where you'll find loads of information about what we talked about today.

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And let's find ways to continue this conversation. I know that social media is also a great tool today.

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So let's keep in touch the social media and.

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And thank you all and have a nice evening. And now let Alex maybe and say a few words.

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Yes. Thank you to our wonderful audience with your wonderful questions and most of all, to our presenters,

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all of our present interests today, which has such a wide ranging number of topics.

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And yet the themes that kept coming through really strongly and really well stated are very inspiring and informative.

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We're really grateful to all of you for giving your time and for joining us.

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And we will be looking forward to the development of so many of the discussions that, I mean, really seem to have enthused people and today.

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And that's a great thing to know. The bombing libraries, this is very happily hosting this display of from the HELLAND Most Pet archive.

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And also, as some of you may know, has other photographic archives.

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It's been collecting in recent years. So do please keep that in mind.

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I wanted to an answer to some people's questions, asking if the chat is going to be saved.

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Yes, we can do that. So tell us we'll have an opportunity to digest that.

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And we could send out that digest to everybody who has registered, who has been on the call.

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And we also have the presentations recorded. Those will be the Oxford podcast site.

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So please do go back and listen again for some of the things we've heard.

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I want to thank the educational media team at the University of Oxford for for hosting our

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hour day today of the women in photography there who have helped us to to meet each other.