I have a couple of questions for you. And then we'll just open to defraud, because I'm sure people have this question for you.
But reflecting on today's themes and subjects and conversations, and because you both, well,
Firecracker and Fastforward operate as collectives of sorts, at least rely on cooperation.
I wanted to really ask you the question about the place of collectiveness in and in your practise in Firecracker and in Fastforward.
And maybe in short, the question might be, is unity strength?
Totally, yes. I mean, I come from a background of working in, you know, I guess in the most famous photo collective.
So for me, it's all I've ever really known. Is that sort of out of collaboration?
And even though, you know, in a way, firecracker is just it is just me.
It's not really just me. There's an entire network of amazing women.
I mean, Max just being one of them.
But I mean, it's at least three of them on this conference that are regular contributors and supporters very much, you know, behind the scenes.
Max already mentioned Hannah. I know show is on on the call.
Emma Lewis from Tate. I mean, there's there's a whole host of women in photography that are incredibly supportive of one another.
And actually, it's funny in a way that Anna and I don't cross over more.
I'm sure we'd like to. It just hit the pause of a crossed and quite formal way.
But, you know, certainly have been huge admirers.
What Fastforward has been doing over the last couple of years and conferences are incredible and much incredible academic standard as well,
which is it's really incredible to see.
And I think that there's just a real appetite and a real love, I think, for for people coming together and having these shared experiences.
And and, yeah, sharing sharing that the love for an industry that we're all incredibly fond of.
Yeah, I mean, I totally agree and yes, I'm sure we will do something at some point, we definitely need.
It makes, you know, this this idea of doing things collectively, but but also but collectively networking and sharing.
I mean, this thing of the you know, this thing of an old boys club in photography is really true.
And, uh, you know, we need to sort of look at it and see how it works.
I mean, I don't necessarily think we need to copy it because it's has you know, it's suspicious in a way.
But I think sharing is really important. I mean, during one of our workshops, one of the participants, Diana Lee,
said that she noticed that we were kept repeating each other's names and other and other names of women in photography.
And she asked why we were doing that. And I don't think we were where we were doing it.
But I realise and again, going back to I think what Erica mentioned, the rule of seven repeating of names relates to the rule of seven.
And I specially think it's important for women photographers.
I think women editors and curators are probably pretty good at sharing and promoting women Telfords.
But I think as women photographers, we need to do that for each other as well.
Thank you. And going back to your remark, a guy maybe not copying the ways of doing things of this club.
I was wondering about this woman in photographs. It can be a theme, but it can also be a practise.
And I was trying to address that in my instruction as feminism, as a practise to doing things within photography.
And I was thinking about feminist praksis and feminist methods and behaviours
and ways of doing things in order to change this industry and this outworld,
let's say. Can you tell us more about this?
It's complicated, isn't it? I mean, again, going back to what VAO said about rere re defining our idea of career.
I think a lot of the definitions for what we do are defined by patriarchal society.
And this is a problem for both men and women. It's not just a problem for women. It's more of a problem for women, but it's a problem for all of us.
And so taking things apart and not being afraid to take things apart and examine them, I think is really, really significant.
And I mean. We need to collaborate also with people from other fields like business or sociology or psychology or whatever,
to find out why certain things happen and how we can work against these aspects of patriarchal society.
You know, even though even the word feminism can be problematic, I think there was a I I'm pretty sure portrait's here.
It was talked about in Patricia's talk about Gerry Spence.
You know, it can it can put some people off. And so, you know, I mean, I'm not saying it should, but it's there are lots of difficulties.
In between the idea of saying female Stover's and women's toters. You know, listen, there are difficulties,
but I think we have to start by taking views about and by listening to people outside of our own fields, listening to people in other fields.
I mean, I think it's been really interesting watching what has happened to women in the field of literature,
because I think women in comedy, for example, I mean, literature seems to have made some very big strides.
The film industry is incredibly slow. You know, why aren't.
Why is it like this? You know, why is it slower in some places and faster in others?
I think language is also quite important when we're sort of talking about this.
I mean, before we we did the presentation, Max and I were coming back to the book and, you know, even 2017.
And that wasn't even really that long ago. But there's language in there that, you know, feels outdated now.
I mean, even even the title female photographers now, not women photographers now still, you know, that also feels a little bit challenging.
And, you know, you have someone like Ginelli in there that has been so vocal about, you know, gender fluidity around that.
And, you know, it feels almost feels wrong to, you know, to have that kind of association.
And by nature, the word feminist.
That's that's I mean, lots of people would argue that that is you know, that would be a terminology that would be anti gender fluidity.
So, you know, I think that the language is also something that we need to keep revisiting.
Perhaps, yes. Slightly develop a way of speaking. And then suddenly the rug pulled from underneath either.
And you will say it's like it's constantly changing, whereas, you know, in a way that's the wizardry of the patriarchy.
Interesting. Maxine, you want to say something?
Yeah, I mean, just in terms of of women photographers, I've always felt it's grammatically wrong and that's my problem with that.
I'm all for the most inclusive definitions of everything.
I certainly think that, yeah, I found that that collaboration is just natural.
I don't really see the point in doing anything on on my own.
I always like to work with other voices and that that's really sort of the root of why.
And David Burkin and I began Vesicle Justice as a research hub,
not to hear our own voices projected out there in the world, but to work across disciplines as well.
And it was saying, you know, we specifically invited lawyers, activists, policymakers, etc., journalists,
not just people working with the visual, you know, teachers and present people who work in prisons.
And it's Fender's people, humans together into a room.
And yes, you might use the visual as a kind of a springboard. And I feel like that's what I've done always.
I used the visual as a springboard. But to do it.
Yeah, I think that's why it has such power and that it can be a really good starting point.
But yeah, it's about opening. The conversation is as widely as we can.
Mm hmm. Interesting. I'm very interested in the various conversations we had today about language and the use the word we use,
which is a kind of bit of an obsession of mine.
And I obviously, when I joined the two Oxford team and this idea of women were in this and what it means to be
women and how how how we can maybe explode the word and make it as inclusive as possible,
but also. I don't want to give up the word feminism either.
Maybe not as a as. I don't know.
Maybe not as a label, but as a way of actually living it and actually changing practises and changing methods.
So it doesn't have to be a big word that people might be scared of.
In a way, I don't really care if people get scared of it. But I really think we need to change ways of working sometimes.
And this can be a great tool and it has a great literature around it.
And people that wrote about it, that are great inspirations. And so I get why it, in my view, scary word for a lot of people.
But I also think that since 2017, things change a great deal and that it's getting more accepted and it makes sense in a way to maybe reshape it,
play with it, own it and and use it in our work.
I don't know. What do you think? Yes.
Yes, I agree. I agree. I mean, somebody mentioned and I don't want to highlight any particular guy,
but somebody mentioned there weren't many men in the in the meeting today.
That has been the same at that summit. Most of the conferences I think this is a really interesting point.
And I think we need to think about how we make this like important mainstream discussion.
Yeah. Even I did. And I just find it.
I mean, first I find it funny and then I find it annoying and then I find it sad.
I mean, like I say, pretty welcome to the guys that are here. So we say, I'm not angry with you.
I just find it crazy. And I think that is because it's obviously it's not.
The thing that we're trying to do is have established practise. I believe I genuinely believe that we are doing here together today.
But because it's let us now praise famous women, then men think that it isn't to them that previously,
you know, with with all the events, there will always men only just because they didn't used the word men.
Then obviously everybody went along and. How do you how you deal with that?
I don't know.
Apart from the fact that we're all deeply fascinating and everyone should want to listen to us because, you see, I don't know how you get to that.
I don't know how you make it not feel exclusive and uncertainty.
You know, I'm talking about men, but obviously, I mean,
gender fluid people and especially and I hate that nobody feels excluded from this, but I think that that.
Yeah. I think there's a lot of work to do. And I'm not entirely sure how to begin that.
I think some of the maxim I did a conference and called it a couple of years ago,
and one of the speakers that we invited was was Bruno Fromm's of Publish Be Happy.
He's not only an incredible speaker, Boz is a hugely knowledgeable about the canon of career photography.
And I think just for me, it comes back to that practise and getting into good habits about how we how we broaden the story.
And maybe when we create these sorts of platforms and these these conferences, then maybe in a way there's a there's a limitation to only having,
you know, female or female identifying or or feminist voices on the on the panel.
Maybe maybe it would be advisable.
Why don't we all look at who is championing women in these different industries?
And perhaps it's not just us. I mean, I guess there are other people out there but don't maybe look like us.
But all of, you know, equally vocal about championing women from all different practises and men and walks of life.
Hmm, interesting. I wanted to talk about money a little bit, too, because it's a subject both of you addressed,
obviously, while both organisation address and firecracker through their grants since 2012.
Right. And obviously an a.
And fast forward through different endeavours. Can we talk about how.
I mean, it class money and being able to sustain a practise is at the core of everything, really.
So would you mind addressing this subject and letting us know about what you
do for this and what you maybe advice for young men coming and photograph is?
Who is the big one? It is.
I think you have to get on and make as many applications as possible with time and learn.
I mean, I've learnt from my peers and the people of generation above me of how important it
is to apply things and how important it is not to be depressed about being rejected.
It's part of the business. And I think we have to teach this.
And I really I really do think we have to make things as those of us involved in education and those of us writing or publishing for education.
We need to make these things as visible as possible through our conversations and our educational publishing.
Now, how to how to make things happen.
I think it's been really refreshing in the last couple of years that we were much more aware of the diversity and inclusion conversation.
But I do feel like in a way, class is really the last thing you need to to to really be addressed in terms of, you know, in in the arts.
And there's amazing people that know coming out of that, like white people.
And the other new platform started by Joanna Cote's in Yorkshire to try out a lot with amazing stories like Huston McKay, Scottish photographer,
who all starting to try to challenge the perception of class within within the arts more broadly and trying to,
you know, not only look at it from a sort of, you know, maybe a racial angle, but also starting to sort of challenge.
Yeah. What it what what what does it mean to choose to to try to have a a a career in in a
notoriously competitive but also incredibly challenging financially career in the arts or
in media or in the creative industries and and other amazing charities that are doing
great work to try to support different voices coming in from different different angles.
And so we're not just constantly sort of talking to the same pool of pool of people, because I think we probably all find that, you know,
I mean, you probably find that when you do your conferences, Max and I, we've we've done as a LCAC or the record of one a couple years ago.
It does it does tend to be that similar audiences.
So now we get the get the word out there to add to a broader audience and start to start to include much, much more wider voices.
Again, I think it starts much lower down in the chain. You know, arts education is sidelined right from the word go.
And, you know, we need better support from it comes from education, from government,
from, you know, from the government's attitude, if you like, what their policies are.
Sorry. Could be the word for the arts. And I understand the arts have been moved more and more sideways in education from primary stages onwards.
And music even worse. You know, some people can't take don't even take an arts subject does any option.
So you it's about a society's attitude. Really? Absolutely.
Yeah. There's great charities coming out now. Like I said, an amazing one could create London who specialise in what specifically for the London,
but working with disadvantaged kids, not not at the university level, but, you know, a little bit younger,
which I think is that is part of the key consideration is what age are we sort of targeting people to to try
to broaden their opportunity and create work with young Londoners to sort of identify realistic pathways,
paint pathways into into the arts and into the creative industries.
And I think that's a really key thing. You know,
the the big institutions and more some of the commercial side can can have a much
greater impact on things like that by giving people like paid opportunities.
And I and I think the work that we've been doing, I've only been at Webber since March, but the work that we've been doing to try to,
you know, look outside of that, the existing sort of pool of either photographers or talent or or or staff even,
and looking at the different charities that some specialise in recruitment for from a pool of people that we might not touch
otherwise and create a really great charity that specialise in trying to give realistic opportunities to young Londoners.
So that's one of the guys doing it. You know, it's just that it's really exciting.
I was full of admiration, excitement, and then immediately disappointed in the sense that it's so limited and as a line it's on London.
So, you know what? The other great cities of the U.K., but even more so and I feel this strongly because I live in a rural situation.
The rural communities are just cut out. And it's really interesting when you go somewhere.
I mean, it's difficult to make generalisations, but I know, for example, in France,
the people in rural communities know about photography and they know about arms.
You know, how did they do that and why can't we do it?
You know, all these things are so different, you know, country by country.
But we need to look at the places where there are good examples and good role models, you know?
You know, Nordic countries are sweet.
You know, Sweden, Finland, endemically places where women have better rights people, the countries we should look to for their practises.
You know, it's we don't spend enough time looking at other people and how they do things.
But I was struck I've worked quite a lot in France and spent a lot of time.
I was always struck by the way that rural communities knew who photographers were.
Are your days like an. A lot of conversation in the chat box and loads of people talking about Loeser very interesting things like age,
for example, and I said that Rosie made a comment about that. And it's also interesting because obviously there's a young upcoming photograph.
But also, I mean, it is also very a subject that needs to be addressed in in a poll because we think
recognitions and process of recognitions for people that had a long career.
Okay, I'll start and read questions I. So we have a question from Sharon.
And she writes, Speaking personally, collaboration and networking are beyond possibilities due to child care and family commitments.
What what would the panel say to a sole traders really based,
working four hours a day during two term time and with no income to speak of to keep the collaborative dream alive?
Other than sitting in a conference like this? Fantastic. Yes. But also feels like looking through a remote window on another world altogether.
Wish I could find that question in the chart was floating the questions earlier.
Now, I can't I can't find it. Guys. I mean, it's.
Yeah. She's talking from a rural situation, isn't she?
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it can be pretty desperate.
I have to say, I remember when I started out, I was in a rural situation.
I'm back in a rural situation again now. I've been to London and lucky enough, you know, mate, I've been to other places as well.
But it's very hard. But I would only say that, you know, start something.
One has to start something with a group of people don't necessarily have to be photographers
like the other creatives or people who can help each other who are interested in creativity.
I would just start something. With like minded people.
Yeah. And we can learn from Mode Soltan, Joe Spens and others, it's doing.
Doing it in a way. And there's an amazing online platform called Photo Scratch That.
And LCAC alumna Hannah Katrina Atrous runs and it's free and at the moment it's online.
Sure, it used to be in London, but now it's online, one tiny benefit of the pandemic and it's free to do work in progress.
Great. You just apply. And, you know, like minded people leave comments, constructive comments about your work.
I think platforms like that are really encouraging in a way to feel part of a community.
Yeah, I guess if you can engage in any learning game, perhaps online.
I mean, we have to sort of take what we can with this virtual virtual world, I think, and being a space active up to a point on.
On social media and making people who don't live in rural places envious with the beauty of your surroundings.
Is it? It's a starting point and that's a talking point. You know, the benefits of living outside of the city on mental mental health and wellbeing.
Joe Coates writes about quite a lot on her blog, for example. I think it's a pretty interesting way of engaging people.
To say that the rural aspect doesn't feel like something that is excluded means you're excluded
from the life that actually gives you already kind of positive way to be to be part of it.
Thank you for your answers. We have another question from Elisa.
Thanks for bringing in the money topic. Do we know more about gender based discrimination in wages, in photographing?
No one I did. We probably do, actually. I think there's lots of disconnected research that needs to be connected up with.
Maybe fewer donors or Max knows. I'm not sure that I know enough.
There has been some research, but not enough. I mean, from from a practitioner's perspective,
I'm not aware that there's a great deal of disparity between what a male photographer would
be paid and what a female photographer paid the 16 years I've been working in photography.
The rights of I mean, the rights are another topic.
And the value that we place on photography is another separate topic.
But I've not really experienced a disconnect between the value a male photographer would be would be paid enough and a female photographer.
That's thankfully something I'm not not have to know how to challenge that one yet.
That's probably the case. You know, if if the FTC is giving someone a sheet, I'm sure that they pay them the same.
But just in terms of the wider out, well, you know, these artworks are worth more than it's going to be.
The people who have had the solo shows that the the big museums and as we now know, as the gorilla guys have told us,
that it mostly men and say there's definitely and it's and I'm pretty sure in terms of I'm a female and male academics,
you know, that was the phase when just there were millions of male professors that obviously,
as Earl is still still there and, you know, a lot of very senior academic positions are all male.
I think I mean, obviously not exclusively.
And there are professors on this on this panel and certainly in this room and say, yes, but I think that it is.
But yes, I don't have I don't have the research on general rates, but I think that, you know, just like society and yet it's unequal and.
Yes. Women and. People of colour.
And, you know, people with disabilities and queer people. Yeah.
Usually. Not at the top end of that of that money thing.
That's a fact. Interesting is saying there is a gap in the market and a lot of freebie culture.
Yeah, that comes bite down to the accessibility.
And I think that the issue of inclusion in photography, you know, there's certain photographers that can't afford to give away that their IP for free.
And there are lots of other photographers that are working at the top ends of
the of that market and see the visibility exercise as being good marketing.
And then then it becomes the secular problem where you've got, you know, very successful photographers giving away rights to books and,
you know, creating their own books that they can afford to pay for, that they can afford to give away the press images for.
And then it creates this cycle of devaluing the work that we we all strive to produce.
So there's there's a bigger question, I think, around the value that we place on photography.
And I noticed that Kyly points out. But I mean, it is a fact that I think women get less paid opportunities.
I guess the point I'm making is that when there is a paid opportunity,
I have an experience there being no one right for the guys and one right for the girls.
But yeah, for sure, there are less women being being given those paid opportunities, although I slightly do feel like it's it's changing.
It's slow. And I think there's always more that can be done.
But I have noticed more women or people of colour role with disabilities being
being given those opportunities that may have been given out to the you know,
to the white male photographers that, you know, we we will we will know about.
Yeah, it's interesting because listening to you, too, I.
The question or the demand that we need to have is about complexity.
We can't have that like opposites working against each other.
Or or or. And it's about making everything complex from our language.
The words we use, the vocabulary we use, the structures we work in and and making,
trying to demand for more time and energy and funding and money for those conversations to become more complex and inclusive.
And and that's how the work. I guess.
Yeah, again, it's very different from place to place, isn't it?
It's really interesting to get out and find out or not get out necessarily.
We can't do that now.
But, you know, somehow find out about all the different models, you know, because knowing more about the different funding models,
business models, you know, for example, again, Finland has an artist's salary.
You know, knowing about these means that one can help to direct energy towards trying to get
similar things or or different things that are a value in one's own communities.
There's someone here saying that they've graduated from a class of 18 and now only two are working in the creative industries.
Well, you know, I'm really. Again, I go back to education, I think in the last five or ten, maybe 10 years.
I think photography courses have developed more and more of an interest, as have probably all art courses in what people do when they graduate.
And focussing on professional practise and how to include it in their curricula.
And I think prior to that, it wasn't included very much because art schools were a very different kind of place to the ones they are now.
You know, there's lots of things I approve of in the new the new art school model is lots of things I don't like as well.
But I think developing professional practise on how photographers have got to have they've really got to have careers full of different things.
You can't necessarily just be a photographer. I mean, some people can, but it's very few people who can.
So making this a realism, you know, a realistic part of the dialogue with students right from the beginning, I think is really, really important.
I mean, I once heard somebody say, and not that long ago that I'm only interested in in training people to be photographers.
Well, it's just ridiculous with a class. I mean, even a class of 18.
But some B.A. classes are much bigger than that. So. We have to think about how we teach people about professional practise.
Yeah, very much. I mean, like, my new class is 50. Just thought I'd mention that.
Just nice and terrifying for them for the new year. It's great that people are coming into education.
But, yeah, what you do with the creative skills you learn. I think that us as a country nationally, I think it's so misunderstood.
And, you know, the chancellor's comments and the ad campaign, I let let's not even go there.
But just in terms of a fundamental misunderstanding of the power of the arts, you know, we live in this visual culture,
and yet that's only seen as this kind of social media kind of film industry thing,
as opposed to being almost a part of a philosophy in politics where it can actually change discourse.
As you know, some of the many people in this conference today have spoken about the ways in which people like J.
Jay spent, for example, how work can literally change change thought.
And I just think that it isn't valued. I don't think the arts are valued properly in this country.
So let's campaign to change it. We have another question.
Could the panellists say what new kinds of art in photographs they will be looking forward to seeing develop in coming years?
Or is that fair to say in relation to individuals work? Sorry I missed that.
Would you mind saying that again? I'm so sorry. Yes, about you knew were you looking forward to seeing it in coming years?
New directions, new perspectives.
I guess I'm I'm I'm really interested in how artists find using new levels and sort of collaboration and storytelling in their work.
Max and I are doing a show and hopefully doing a show in Bristol in May,
which looks at that exact topic about how you either provide your subjects with with agency or
you're indeed working like Peyton Fulford is working with in your own community to tell their story,
but also versions thereof of your own.
But that's the kind of work that I'm I'm really excited about. The moment is, is women, mostly women that are all female identified,
that are looking at their own communities or finding new collaborative ways of telling telling stories about the other.
Interesting. We have another question.
And how many photographic platforms offered prises scholarships for school age children engage in photograph arts?
Do you know about that? Probably no. Yeah. Well, I'm going to go with not not enough.
I think we looked at this one. I think I even looked at this one when I was at Magnum and we were looking at ways to engage schoolchildren.
It's incredibly difficult to engage school age children in this country,
partly because of the obviously the natural restrictions on accessing schools.
But it was a real challenge. And actually it was that it was a total barrier to attempt to being, you know, to pursuing it.
I think I gave up shortly. I thought the budget year of the project was I mean, it was like a sort of.
Well, actually, it was a little bit like shower and photo Wax's festival and a box.
So they were printed a three panels that were almost sort of.
What you got was that was not mounted.
Oh, was between two. Was a three panels that was sort of laminated that you send it to schools that look different.
Parents there, history told through photography so that the schools could then engage their own stories
and sort of curate their own shows by sort of pinning them up around the class ferrymen.
We were looking at civil rights in America.
We're looking at the Second World War through the Magnum Archives.
But then having that,
the teachers empowered to tell the curriculum through visuals and a whole bunch of funding can get anywhere from quite a few projects.
Again, we just don't know about this is going to be things I know. Autograph Kostic.
So education books, which is not not exactly like that you're talking about.
You know, it's it's a wonderful thing that when schools and I know lots of individual photographers and artists will have had projects with schools.
I mean, I run a really great fun home with my local school when I first moved to the city.
And so I think there is a history of it probably that we don't know.
And again, if we don't know, if we don't have role models for how things work.
And this is really, really applies to women in photography, which is why the visibility factor is really, really important.
If we don't have the visibility on how people have made their careers work and made that work.
We have nothing to model anything on. So these these are really important questions.
But they draw me back to thinking about how important it is to record, say, rediscover all these things.
And I think it's a pretty important thing.
I mean, I know there's people from all over the world here to be interesting, to hear stories from other countries.
But I know firsthand this is a problem for the whole of photography in the UK, not just for women, but it's very important for women in photography.
This today is incredibly important. I think it's a record.
Should it? If the conversations are recorded. But, you know, it's gonna be a wonderful results.
And a lot of people are sharing and they have different projects and collectives and websites.
So, yes, I've tried to make sense out of it and put it maybe online or something, and I'll keep you all in touch.
I'd like to finish and we are now almost out of time, but I'd like to finish with Quest with a bit of a quotation maybe, and then ask you.
Are you hoping for your organisations to become somehow somehow irrelevant?
So not again. Are you hoping for your organisations to become irrelevant?
Yes. Well, in terms of the fact that we don't need them anymore.
It's a provocation. I'm I'm I'm just I'm just yeah, I wanted to finish on this on this kind of remark,
is that the aim that we don't no longer have need to have this kind of.
Conferences and talks and organisations.
And I don't know, it's again, the thing is for us women photography face is not just about campaigning for women.
So know, we've talked about that a lot. It is a subject and it'll always be a subject.
There's a legacy that even if it becomes irrelevant because we have equality, which will be magnificent.
It's it's there's a legacy and it's a subject area that's really, really important.
So it may be a relevance, not the right words.
I mean, I hope we do need to be fighting for equality for many, many years.
But I hope what we've done is always relevant. Yeah, I think that the ways in which we're working, you know.
I mean, we're talking firecrackers, firecracker.
I really hate that firecracker continues and the ways of working, which it champions that kind of collaboration and that kind of the community's idea.
Now, I really hate that that that becomes a feature and.
Yeah. I really do. Just that. Maybe we don't have to. And in set. Why it's like like female or like women.
Because it is the age in which we'll operate.
You know, baby, it takes a village idea. I don't know.
I feel maybe I fit, but maybe I have a slightly different take on it.
I wrote in the forward to the book that I often feel quite uncomfortable about firecracker being of female or female identifying only platform.
I wrote about. I wrote about the sort of the dichotomy and the and the.
Yeah. I guess that the challenge of trying to, you know, be forward thinking and trying to and trying not to alienate and trying to, you know,
as we talked about earlier, about not creating a female platform that is then only looked at by,
you know, by female or female identifying photographers.
But I mean, maybe maybe I think I was right that the sort of hype where it will always be relevant,
but perhaps that's sort of that the need to champion will be slightly less.
I think maybe maybe the hope would be that we will always come together like this, because with women, we enjoy collaborating with one another.
And it's, you know, it's a great network and and there's pleasure in it.
And but maybe from a sort of professional perspective,
I do hope that there's less need for us to sort of come together like this from an opportunity perspective.
I guess. Thank you.
And I'm just looking at the chat box to make sure that I did not miss any questions because there was a lot of conversations going on,
but I don't think there was any direct questions. I don't think so.
Alex, do you see one that Francesca Provenzano has her hand up so we can ask you if it's a very brief question, Francesca.
We're nearly out of time, but but to go ahead, if you can, unroot yourself.
We're not hearing it from. Okay, well, maybe I'm Cesca. Sorry, I'm not hearing that.
So. OK.
No mistaking hand in that case.
Well, thank you all for your great papers today and for the great conversations, and I hope we'll be able to continue this conversation.
I know that there will be conferences through Fastforward and books to look for 30 Firecracker.
And and please do and have a look at the four to Oxford Festival Web site, where you'll find loads of information about what we talked about today.
And let's find ways to continue this conversation. I know that social media is also a great tool today.
So let's keep in touch the social media and.
And thank you all and have a nice evening. And now let Alex maybe and say a few words.
Yes. Thank you to our wonderful audience with your wonderful questions and most of all, to our presenters,
all of our present interests today, which has such a wide ranging number of topics.
And yet the themes that kept coming through really strongly and really well stated are very inspiring and informative.
We're really grateful to all of you for giving your time and for joining us.
And we will be looking forward to the development of so many of the discussions that, I mean, really seem to have enthused people and today.
And that's a great thing to know. The bombing libraries, this is very happily hosting this display of from the HELLAND Most Pet archive.
And also, as some of you may know, has other photographic archives.
It's been collecting in recent years. So do please keep that in mind.
I wanted to an answer to some people's questions, asking if the chat is going to be saved.
Yes, we can do that. So tell us we'll have an opportunity to digest that.
And we could send out that digest to everybody who has registered, who has been on the call.
And we also have the presentations recorded. Those will be the Oxford podcast site.
So please do go back and listen again for some of the things we've heard.
I want to thank the educational media team at the University of Oxford for for hosting our
hour day today of the women in photography there who have helped us to to meet each other.