1 00:00:02,370 --> 00:00:17,520 This is the 22nd of July 2015, and it's two birds being interviewed by carefully to thank you very much for the marvellous curriculum vitae, 2 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:21,330 but I think I'll just plunge right in the middle of things, as it were were. 3 00:00:21,330 --> 00:00:26,490 When did you first get interested in dermatology? Oh, great. 4 00:00:26,490 --> 00:00:28,820 Aunt Elsie was a dermatologist. 5 00:00:28,820 --> 00:00:38,790 So, you know, no, she was one of the first women dermatologists and she was actually based in Liverpool and she trained in medicine. 6 00:00:38,790 --> 00:00:42,990 I think her husband died and he had been in medicine, I think. 7 00:00:42,990 --> 00:00:45,780 And then she went into medicine. So she went in slightly late. 8 00:00:45,780 --> 00:00:51,870 But she was a dermatologist with an interest in vulval diseases in unworked practised in Liverpool. 9 00:00:51,870 --> 00:00:55,470 Yes. So I actually met great Aunt Elsie on a number of occasions. 10 00:00:55,470 --> 00:01:00,630 And there is a photograph of me sitting talking to go on to see who lives when she was 103. 11 00:01:00,630 --> 00:01:06,010 That's a good start. Yes, I know. Still doing the Times crossword crossword very late in life. 12 00:01:06,010 --> 00:01:13,620 So she knew I was a medical student, but she never knew I went into dermatology. But dermatology was a and that it was a fairly practical choice. 13 00:01:13,620 --> 00:01:17,760 In fact, I had a very interesting bit of career counselling. Right. 14 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:22,050 I wondered. Yes, well, it was hilarious. You know, we look after our medical students all the well. 15 00:01:22,050 --> 00:01:29,460 Now I make lots of career advice. And I had two children pretty rapidly alcohol. 16 00:01:29,460 --> 00:01:39,300 And so I was practising part time on Rosemary Ruth's wonderful part time training scheme in Oxford, which really helped so many of us. 17 00:01:39,300 --> 00:01:44,060 She was a trailblazer. Yes, indeed. So. And I did some diabetes. 18 00:01:44,060 --> 00:01:50,820 Yes. Yes. At that stage. But yeah, I had two small children, so I wanted to find something that was medical. 19 00:01:50,820 --> 00:01:57,280 I definitely was the surgeon. When you came to Oxford from school, you didn't sign up for a dermatology. 20 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:02,700 No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It was all medicine because I got my chance. 21 00:02:02,700 --> 00:02:09,120 Well, you know, I've been preclinical in Bristol and then clinical in Oxford, which was slightly unusual. 22 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,750 Yes. And then I'd met Peter, who was going to Bristol, of all places. 23 00:02:12,750 --> 00:02:16,170 So I had to go back to my job. 24 00:02:16,170 --> 00:02:23,850 And then we had our first child and we came back to Oxford again because I'm following Peter and I got membership because in those days, 25 00:02:23,850 --> 00:02:26,530 you got it very quickly. What? You could do it without any medicine. 26 00:02:26,530 --> 00:02:33,470 It's not a pooling risk when I seem to find that, say you could, but you had to know some medicine to get the exam. 27 00:02:33,470 --> 00:02:37,530 No, not much. I mean, you know, I was doing a time job. 28 00:02:37,530 --> 00:02:43,740 I don't know what kind of medicine at all. I guess things have changed for the better. 29 00:02:43,740 --> 00:02:53,220 So I came to Oxford having done house jobs, a years of full time pathology with membership, 30 00:02:53,220 --> 00:02:58,530 and then went through various medical jobs so I could broaden my medical experience. 31 00:02:58,530 --> 00:03:00,330 And then the question was what I should do. 32 00:03:00,330 --> 00:03:09,870 So I, I remember going talking to the general practitioners about being a GP and thinking about paediatrics, haematology, rheumatology. 33 00:03:09,870 --> 00:03:17,280 They were all in the back of my mind and pathology because I really like pathology. 34 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:23,820 So I went to Peter Monod and I, I said to Peter, you know, what about me doing histopathology? 35 00:03:23,820 --> 00:03:33,330 Because I really do enjoy that. And he told me, he said, Susan, we've had enough part time women and pathology go and be a dermatologist. 36 00:03:33,330 --> 00:03:37,830 I don't think it was quite as bad as that. That's how I ended up in dermatology. 37 00:03:37,830 --> 00:03:44,850 Yes. Did you talk to mom? No. She must have been a few years ahead of you know, I just don't Margaret. 38 00:03:44,850 --> 00:03:52,830 I must have done an essay. So there must be some I must have done a bit of dermatology before that because it was definitely on the agenda. 39 00:03:52,830 --> 00:04:00,330 But Peter was very firm that I should go there. I'm told he was right because I like people and patients that have been lost as a pathologist. 40 00:04:00,330 --> 00:04:05,070 But dermatology, of course, combined the pathology because you can see the skin, you can take the biopsy. 41 00:04:05,070 --> 00:04:10,260 We looked on the microscope and the interaction with people because when you say you can take the biopsy, 42 00:04:10,260 --> 00:04:15,210 I mean that to me, summarise is ironic because because in my time, 43 00:04:15,210 --> 00:04:23,160 as it were, people looked at things and decided what they were saying to me, if it Lizzie knew immediately is a big thing about it. 44 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:28,350 And look at it now. It was he there in the different challenges for Mr Ruddock. 45 00:04:28,350 --> 00:04:32,400 I met as a medical student tonight. And do you remember his name Buttons? 46 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:38,220 Yes, absolutely. Yes. He was marvellous. He was a gentleman, dermatologist. 47 00:04:38,220 --> 00:04:42,300 And Terence, I must have been a consultant then as well. 48 00:04:42,300 --> 00:04:48,240 But by the time I came into dermatology, Rannoch had retired. So Terence and Rodney Dalva. 49 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:54,210 Yes, my mentors were brilliant because I'd had some woman working part time before. 50 00:04:54,210 --> 00:04:58,290 But in fact, I think I'm Agfest and had gone through ahead of me. Yes. 51 00:04:58,290 --> 00:05:00,100 So they were familiar with. 52 00:05:00,100 --> 00:05:08,120 These women who came and went and I went and had my interview with them, I think when I was still pregnant with Denny, that's right. 53 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:17,260 And then I started in the department and they said when I was no longer pregnant, I said, who are you? 54 00:05:17,260 --> 00:05:21,670 So who would you say really transform docs with dermatology? 55 00:05:21,670 --> 00:05:27,370 It was a remnant because it turned into an ordinary elevator. I was 30. 56 00:05:27,370 --> 00:05:32,950 I think it was a steady progression because Panalpina Oscar then came as a consultant and she made a huge difference. 57 00:05:32,950 --> 00:05:40,160 So even for now, did you have I mean, Falana? No, Fernado, another Oxford graduate, actually was a third consultant. 58 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:45,760 And what was his voyageur? Rostker. Well, okay, very English. 59 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:50,770 But her father was Polish. So W.J. Iska. 60 00:05:50,770 --> 00:05:51,610 Yes. 61 00:05:51,610 --> 00:06:03,700 So she brought modern research, I say, into Oxford where she had trained in London, but and brought the new techniques of immunosuppressant staining. 62 00:06:03,700 --> 00:06:10,060 The monoclonal antibodies were just arriving and so we did also. She was a very great expert on immuno Bullis diseases. 63 00:06:10,060 --> 00:06:15,310 So Oxford took off in that direction. Rodinia down a huge amount of hair and nails. 64 00:06:15,310 --> 00:06:21,040 And Tarrant's is a lateral thinker, you know, Terence. So he would take Neitz moves. 65 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:25,780 You were never quite sure the conversation in terms of where he was going to end up, 66 00:06:25,780 --> 00:06:32,710 but he transformed the church with they are and how he did that was a major contribution. 67 00:06:32,710 --> 00:06:41,140 And, yes, useful. Or let's go back to the beginning that when you came from Bristol, what did you think of the admissions process? 68 00:06:41,140 --> 00:06:48,010 Selection. But I didn't have an admissions process, so. 69 00:06:48,010 --> 00:06:56,620 All right, I'm a Belfast girl. So I applied to Bristol and was accepted on the basis of my application, no interviews. 70 00:06:56,620 --> 00:07:03,300 And I did my three years in Bristol on my third year. I was A, B, C when my external examiner was Charles Phillips. 71 00:07:03,300 --> 00:07:07,420 He is. Yes, I understand you the first what I did. 72 00:07:07,420 --> 00:07:13,150 And yes, I mean, also Bullough was my professor of physiology in Bristol. 73 00:07:13,150 --> 00:07:19,090 So when I done well and a lot of my friends had not interconnected, they'd gone on to do clinical. 74 00:07:19,090 --> 00:07:23,150 And I think the first year medicines, quite bruising. And a number of them were a bit disillusioned. 75 00:07:23,150 --> 00:07:29,820 There were lots of medical students that had difficulty finding a theme, just as our students do. 76 00:07:29,820 --> 00:07:33,880 And I think it was on the he said, well, why don't you go to Oxford? 77 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:38,380 So this was in July. Why don't you go to Oxford? 78 00:07:38,380 --> 00:07:41,980 And I said that I haven't applied to go to. No, no, no. 79 00:07:41,980 --> 00:07:47,290 I think I think they might have a space for you, but I didn't know he and Charles must have discussed things. 80 00:07:47,290 --> 00:07:52,390 So I went to Belfast and said to my parents, what am I going to watch? 81 00:07:52,390 --> 00:07:58,660 What they said, what went on? Then I got a letter saying, please come over to be interviewed. 82 00:07:58,660 --> 00:08:03,430 And I met Jim Holt. I remember arriving, flying over from Northern Ireland. 83 00:08:03,430 --> 00:08:08,590 I must have got the train and walking down St Giles and those wonderful flower baskets. 84 00:08:08,590 --> 00:08:14,800 I've never been in Oxford and the colleges. It was just yes, it was extraordinary. 85 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,640 I'm walking in to the medical school and finding the hot Snezana. 86 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:22,240 It wasn't it was it was a Portakabin, wasn't it is. 87 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:27,610 That's what you saw in an interview with Jim. I don't remember anybody else interviewing me. 88 00:08:27,610 --> 00:08:32,710 And he said, I think we've got a space for you now. We need to find a college. I know you got on the telephone. 89 00:08:32,710 --> 00:08:38,800 And he said, I think sometimes I've been quite good to us in the past life. I was me a place really. 90 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:46,480 Did you ever see Charles Phillips again? I didn't know what he actually he lived in the village when we arrived, but then he moved out. 91 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:51,070 I must have met him, I think, perhaps briefly, twice when he was here. 92 00:08:51,070 --> 00:09:01,450 But he was quite old by that is. And so then you did you tell me about your student is fantastic. 93 00:09:01,450 --> 00:09:06,070 There weren't very many of us there and there were many, many girls either. 94 00:09:06,070 --> 00:09:06,310 You know, 95 00:09:06,310 --> 00:09:15,430 in Bristol it was fifty fifty and there were one hundred and twenty of us in Oxford I think in all year there were forty maybe right out of it. 96 00:09:15,430 --> 00:09:25,330 No, no, no. Forty altogether in the year. Yes. I think there were ten of us got had a bull. 97 00:09:25,330 --> 00:09:31,180 There was wonderful. The clinical school, the clinical side of things. 98 00:09:31,180 --> 00:09:35,230 It was so friendly because everybody knew everybody else. 99 00:09:35,230 --> 00:09:39,430 We were cherished. People would meet in the house at the end of the day. 100 00:09:39,430 --> 00:09:43,180 Do you remember we don't have a glass of beer together. 101 00:09:43,180 --> 00:09:49,210 And I sat behind the bar and those type of football and tea on the lawn. 102 00:09:49,210 --> 00:09:55,540 I mean, that's not remembering much about the medicine, is it? But the certainly the the atmosphere was wonderful. 103 00:09:55,540 --> 00:09:59,080 How many with the V on a four or five straight. Yes. 104 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:09,420 And counting. That is Tim Dolan was with me and right without turning Wendy back, very good at organising farm parties, as I recall. 105 00:10:09,420 --> 00:10:16,020 He was very good looking this. So I stopped off on true baby, true love, baby. 106 00:10:16,020 --> 00:10:21,840 And it was the other one that should have been in bed. 107 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,800 I'm sure it helps when this one is threat. It would be that I can't remember. 108 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:30,030 So that was my first medical phone and I remember sitting in Truelove with his moustaches. 109 00:10:30,030 --> 00:10:35,820 And what do you remember about him and what did you smoke a pipe before? 110 00:10:35,820 --> 00:10:41,970 I smelled smoke a cigarette. So I remember the smell of nicotine is that he smoked them in the middle of the night. 111 00:10:41,970 --> 00:10:46,300 You know what I mean? He was good. And he was he had quite a twinkle. 112 00:10:46,300 --> 00:10:53,760 Yes. And I mean, he taught us quite a bit, but I can't remember anything. 113 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:59,700 I didn't more specific, the right hand, the smell of cigarette and yes, I think got the surgeons, 114 00:10:59,700 --> 00:11:09,840 as you said, I remember doing a must have been in the Fontanet doing a we could act up as hostile forces. 115 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:20,760 Couldn't wait long time Moloney's for. Yes. And I think Roger Bodney was going on holiday and had got me lined up to do his week when he was away. 116 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:26,910 And I was told what I had to do and I pitched up and everything I thought was organised. 117 00:11:26,910 --> 00:11:36,690 And I took that patients to theatre and I had to send the first patient back because I hadn't done the crossmatch. 118 00:11:36,690 --> 00:11:46,900 So last night I researched. Good to know they want to be cross, that could have been very close, and I remember Melanie was told, right? 119 00:11:46,900 --> 00:11:52,670 Yes. And I remember actually going to Swindon where I had an accent attachment. 120 00:11:52,670 --> 00:11:59,830 This must have been in the family. And somebody, a very good urologist, told me to catheterise absolutely perfectly. 121 00:11:59,830 --> 00:12:03,700 So when I moved to Bristol and I was a house officer in urology, 122 00:12:03,700 --> 00:12:08,290 catheterisation was something I could do with no problem at all if I remember Joe Smith. 123 00:12:08,290 --> 00:12:13,030 And so I must have done some urology as a medical student was back in the Churchill. 124 00:12:13,030 --> 00:12:19,240 Yes, I remember that. First, the dermatology you, which is something I think. 125 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:23,070 Yes. In that I think it was to the medicine next door. 126 00:12:23,070 --> 00:12:30,130 It was infirmary and there was a big table and all the discussion with the patients was done in front of them. 127 00:12:30,130 --> 00:12:35,800 There were two tables and both patients could hear what was going on and then they were taking aside into another room and stripped off. 128 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:41,170 Yes, there was no privacy with that patient. Yes. 129 00:12:41,170 --> 00:12:46,150 So what about finals? Do you remember? I know. 130 00:12:46,150 --> 00:12:54,370 I know that we were the one who didn't do finals. We were on the fast track and you course introduced in Oxford and it only lasted two 131 00:12:54,370 --> 00:12:59,590 years because they realised nobody knew anything and they had to extend it again. I do. 132 00:12:59,590 --> 00:13:03,070 I mean, so we are be keen on that. 133 00:13:03,070 --> 00:13:08,050 Well, we qualified in January. Right. And we had no revision, of course. 134 00:13:08,050 --> 00:13:16,030 And I think our exams were all staged. So, you know, it all disappeared in a blur because I was getting married immediately after it. 135 00:13:16,030 --> 00:13:20,380 And it led to cause pathology was getting a big place with that, 136 00:13:20,380 --> 00:13:25,700 because there would be some big idea that after a clinical introduction, you've got a big slab. 137 00:13:25,700 --> 00:13:33,610 But we did get the energy and I remember very much enjoying that, obviously tied in with my translator looking at pots and pitchmen. 138 00:13:33,610 --> 00:13:37,000 I was actually my teacher in pathology. Yes. 139 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:41,260 So that was quite right. I was right at the beginning doing that. And there were lots of pots. 140 00:13:41,260 --> 00:13:45,340 They were above the hot spot like. Yes, they were. 141 00:13:45,340 --> 00:13:50,020 Yes. And that you actually didn't get examined. 142 00:13:50,020 --> 00:13:55,130 You say, oh, well, we must have had some sort of exam, but I can't remember anything about it at all. 143 00:13:55,130 --> 00:14:00,850 But everybody passed because, of course, it was this very short course. 144 00:14:00,850 --> 00:14:06,370 And then I when I went to Bristol and to do my house job, so I sort of caught up by six months. 145 00:14:06,370 --> 00:14:14,710 And in fact, I started my house jobs in February with people I started Bristol with who were in their second house job. 146 00:14:14,710 --> 00:14:22,300 I understand the question was how do I get the job in Bristol? That was interesting because Bristol had a gap. 147 00:14:22,300 --> 00:14:23,970 I mean, these things are all very fortuitous. 148 00:14:23,970 --> 00:14:33,430 What I said was that Peter was going to Oxford and I decided I think by that stage we must to get engaged or Peter was going to Bristol, 149 00:14:33,430 --> 00:14:34,510 so I need to get my job. 150 00:14:34,510 --> 00:14:43,180 So I wrote to Bristol, to Alan Reid, who is the professor of medicine, and and he said and I went home and I said, I will interview you. 151 00:14:43,180 --> 00:14:51,640 And I think they were short because a lot of my year, more than normal, had indicated or done something there was rigorous anyway. 152 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:58,840 And he said, oh, yes. He said, why should why should we take you responding with the confidence of you? 153 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:08,380 Because I'm good. Isn't that terrible? 154 00:15:08,380 --> 00:15:16,660 So this is a great thing. So you did the rest of it then when you came back to this, you've known several. 155 00:15:16,660 --> 00:15:21,730 You a great husband, Duke. Yeah. Bristol, Oxford Street, Winterville. 156 00:15:21,730 --> 00:15:29,560 Two, in a sense. How do they compare the right to compare with the others as well? 157 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:38,740 So the Radclyffe in fact my working in the Radcliffe, it all moved up to I think it had moved up to the John Radcliffe when we came back. 158 00:15:38,740 --> 00:15:44,530 So they all Radcliffe I never actually worked in apart from being a student. 159 00:15:44,530 --> 00:15:49,540 So I did all these different medical attachments, short bursts. 160 00:15:49,540 --> 00:15:54,980 I'm a part time basis. So I was never a full time physician in Oxford. 161 00:15:54,980 --> 00:16:00,850 I know it's a renal medicine, diabetes. A lot of it was based at the Chacho. 162 00:16:00,850 --> 00:16:07,480 And my memories are of we're doing emergency medicine mean I had to do some 163 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,080 emergency medicine because I was in this anomalous position of having membership, 164 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:16,060 but actually having had moxie, no experience medicine. 165 00:16:16,060 --> 00:16:23,890 So I remember working with Nick Nick White, who is still a very good friend to the other day, saying, Nick, how far does this go back? 166 00:16:23,890 --> 00:16:29,080 And John Paul is actually around and I think as well and Nick said, yes, you did come in. 167 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:36,400 So I remember working at, you know, junior registrar level with Nick being a real registrar and really not having much clue. 168 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:41,190 I think that was a big problem with my education. And I think I you know, I. 169 00:16:41,190 --> 00:16:43,480 Skated rather thin ice ever since. 170 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:54,000 Well, you going to just say yes now they need to know a lot of medicine because we're using Panopto to diminish drug dermatology. 171 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,670 The medical centre dermatology is very different. Not right. 172 00:16:56,670 --> 00:17:02,680 When we started, you couldn't do because that interested me because toads in your funding measure go down. 173 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,100 Tell me exactly what the damage is. 174 00:17:05,100 --> 00:17:13,110 I mean, there's a lot, you know, doing things to people in know 50 percent of my dermatology surgical no tumour walk. 175 00:17:13,110 --> 00:17:21,000 Oh, it's gone through the roof. It's completely changed. So our registrars do huge amounts of surgery would tell me about it. 176 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:26,380 Is that just the removal make incisions? I know they're doing graft, skin grafts, flaps, all sorts. 177 00:17:26,380 --> 00:17:35,490 Yes. The entomologist does not that the plastic surgeons are overwhelmed as well, that there is just so much skin cancer. 178 00:17:35,490 --> 00:17:39,840 Melanoma has rocketed up. Yes. A man who used to be rare. Yes. 179 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:44,510 I got him one a week. It's just because it seemed been as much. 180 00:17:44,510 --> 00:17:50,170 Well, that's a very interesting point. Yes. It's a bit like breast cancer, prostate that they're making the call much earlier. 181 00:17:50,170 --> 00:17:59,040 They've got to not called it a microscope. So you can actually magnify the pigmented lesion in in situ, blow it up and really see the network, 182 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:03,490 a pattern of pigmentation and make a call very early on in the normal course. 183 00:18:03,490 --> 00:18:07,930 What we don't know is if these minimally abnormal tumours were left, what they did. 184 00:18:07,930 --> 00:18:13,050 Exactly. Exactly. Yes. 185 00:18:13,050 --> 00:18:18,750 So I understand about that. But I'm no surgeon, so I got out of the surgical side as soon as I could. 186 00:18:18,750 --> 00:18:26,340 But to go back to that first and you must have seen enough to make you, you know, what was the nursing back in Oxford compared to, say, Bristol? 187 00:18:26,340 --> 00:18:37,560 And the difference the next thing in dermatology was I did do a little bit of dermatology in Bristol because I did it actually as a hospital. 188 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:45,070 Yes, that was my first contact. I forgot about that. But I the last thing in David's college in Oxford was pretty end of it. 189 00:18:45,070 --> 00:18:49,800 And Terence was a great one for advancing nursing training. 190 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:57,720 Up next, politicians in a SO, yes, we had very we worked very closely with the nurses and we were extremely good nurses. 191 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:02,970 And so that's my memory. But then the pathologist must be very important, extremely important. 192 00:19:02,970 --> 00:19:08,750 That link is vital in dermatology. And who did you work with? People are wondering if you will. 193 00:19:08,750 --> 00:19:13,320 Yes, he was our deputy apologist. That's why he said to me after that apology. 194 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:19,980 And that was that was great. The research, of course, that I did. That was I mean, when did you start that? 195 00:19:19,980 --> 00:19:26,550 Well, that was Fanaroff pushing that another water Oscar came and she was very good at pushing women and making us do things. 196 00:19:26,550 --> 00:19:29,250 And so she said, you need to learn how to do immunised standing. 197 00:19:29,250 --> 00:19:35,340 So I went off to London and did used to get the train down to the London hospital to work with Henry Lee, 198 00:19:35,340 --> 00:19:39,270 who was developing monoclonal antibodies to different keratin. 199 00:19:39,270 --> 00:19:46,130 So this was all at the start of the monoclonal antibody. And so how long did you go to London to try? 200 00:19:46,130 --> 00:19:50,880 I must have done that for, I don't know, six, nine months. They're going up. 201 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:54,630 No, no going out. I think it was several days a week. 202 00:19:54,630 --> 00:20:00,420 Yes. But learning the new techniques and doing some work on this on a condition called Dario's. 203 00:20:00,420 --> 00:20:08,940 Yes, vaguely. Remember, the title I don't remember to do is I do remember who it is that. 204 00:20:08,940 --> 00:20:16,050 Well, that was very interesting because that was when I arrived in the dermatology department. 205 00:20:16,050 --> 00:20:20,670 You had to do you had to cut your teeth by doing pharmaceutical type studies. 206 00:20:20,670 --> 00:20:24,300 Do you remember everybody was told they had to do this because, of course, 207 00:20:24,300 --> 00:20:28,740 it generated a bit of income from the car and generally they weren't terribly inspiring. 208 00:20:28,740 --> 00:20:38,409 But it just so happened that John Wilkinson, who had been a registrar in the department and gone off to see Thomases had been involved in.