So now I think this is the lights man who wanted to thank you for agreeing to talk about your time at Oxford University Medical School with me,
I'm really sorry, College Oxford. In fact, now it's the first two to.
So Jim came to Oxford first, I think, as a consultant. No, no, no, no.
I came as a very junior senior. So I've got to start at the beginning.
Please, please.
The undergraduate that when it came and of course, teaching hospital and then at the time to tell me all it and done leave that sort of place.
But I mean, Winston Churchill, I think when he was a member of parliament, he was it was reminiscing about his time in Dundee,
sort of reflecting on the lovely silver, retired as he was on the table on the train, particularly when the train was pointing south.
And I wrote the sentiments. And about six months before I was due to do my finals, I met and without very much hesitation,
married or decided to marry Sheila, who was an undergraduate, and I reading all the time.
And in June of 1959,
I took my phone calls and then we got married Harrogate's and two days later went back up to Andrews to pick up our degrees and one day after that,
got on the ship to go to Canada. Wow. And the reason for this was that I made close friends with two particular individuals.
One was a young woman, Paul Evans, and his father was the Canadian ambassador to The Hague.
And another was the Chapel George Post, who's an economist.
A little bit strange to me in Kingston, Ontario, which is when you come across and you have to the books I wrote for them and I thought, that's fine.
And I joined the cadre of the 1959 graduating class at Queen's University doing
house jobs or internship with the report indicates the general hospital.
So we went off by sea and started what the idea was to stay.
Yeah, we come back, I think, and we ended up staying for two months and practising as a student and two in the laboratory of a professor of medicine,
Michael Michael Brown, who was a Rhodes scholar here, and the reporters in the committee in our group, which is time.
So when I said I'd like to go back home, he said Malcolm Brown bread,
to which he said he had a young chap would like to come back already swamped with said, yes, it was a mistake.
I need to think so. With no interviews, no nothing at all.
I was deposited back here in Oxford in the summer of 1963, and I took over from Chris Pyne, who was the outgoing senior out of that time.
And that was the beginning of another splendid friendship. And the Michael Denis guy was the registrar, a psychiatrist.
That's right. Well, that is after about a year,
I decided I want to mention one of these countries which was very sympathetic to this is the good people of Zimbabwe.
And so I said, what kind of job? Yes. Lucky to have you and have to get food advertising.
You could see that it was about it. And so I was with his last registrar and he retired in 1960 and OBC from Yaddo took over
the chair and he would go because nobody really a little bit of a shadow available.
And I was first registrar, so I have some clothes under folded up.
And then with BCU, I think, to move and become a lecturer in medicine.
And then my Uncle Francis card went off to Glasgow, retiring gerontology, the society and medical tutor, and that must have been in the late sixties.
And and it was that time. Oh maybe.
But yes, I think it was probably 1970. Would I take on the shift of.
So that's how I came to office, and in those days, you got an honorary contract.
So I was nothing about them. Well, certainly true love with she was on the beach and obviously the electricity and your bed and bed,
not with the physician who was in private practise.
And he was the one who would be doing all the work to bring people in.
Some of considerable significance as and and so, yes, I mean, at that time and it was about this time, I guess, that you can see, I think.
Michael, don't you think he would have done I guess when I came by in my life that I was in that slot and that was sentiment, I think.
Right. But it wasn't until some degree football. Then I moved for the health.
Something went terribly wrong and I took his post.
Yes. And that's when you remember me. So I was like, whatever it was.
So that's how I felt was my introduction was how it all goes.
That's fascinating. I didn't even the slightest thing is that we met all of you.
Yes, yes. Yes. One of the alumni. Yes.
You were a general physician, but I remember that you had a particularly well thought that stem from which, of course,
was a Obreht gastroenterologist when the two men empowered because haematology
researchers would love to do with and V12 and that you associate with the gut.
So to do it in those days, you ologists.
It's the old physician, John Berman, for example,
that the emphasis on stem to read books and idiopathic Stateville having to collect people back to find that sort of stuff.
And we called the capsule that come in really until the late 60s revolutionised the gastroenterologist.
And also I remember him and do the first endoscopy.
Right. A tiny room of the NBN. Yes. Yes. Well, centralisers, I mean, before fibre optic of the Japanese would important role and.
She wanted to try and ground and certainly one of the very early fiberoptic scopes and I told about that.
So, yeah, I mean, the interesting haematology it was was with your wits and then that sort of move or the myeloma,
but always out there of what America would call general internal medicine.
I'm very impressed that you did UNCHR jobs in Canada, so you would have seen medical training standards and then go to get.
What was the biggest one of many differences between Canadian medicine and English medicine at that time?
Of course, it was a cross-fertilisation,
but I wasn't aware of any evidence that the scale of things was very small to what they did now in Queensland is.
I think in the landru at the time, it was I think she had to study in Dundee and they came together at that time, the biggest amount of attrition.
So I think the graduating class was about 60, but it was only a very small, small scale.
You know, it's interesting because it would be interesting to know how they're different nowadays, whether or not that is very true.
And you please tell me something, your experience with writing and working in Oxford,
because it's rather sort of mutual, which is a very unusual place to practise and that you've already touched on.
Well, it was of course, it was all very small. You knew about it very quickly and interacted with it when you went to lunch with you.
There'll be a sort of table to consult, but you've got to know better than the other side.
Do so well in obstetrics and and the with a neurology and all the and the only and the were people and the people and the women as it were,
and the matron. So it was all very timely.
And of course we're talking about a time when the medical school in fact, you have to look this up, but it must have been on the order of 30.
And one significant thing that occurred and George picked them up and went to work and I think
1967 was that he persuaded the Cambridge medical pupils to begin patronising rather than London.
And it was a very significant input from Cambridge in the mid 60s that made the tutors here a lovely take note that
always been a little bit of tension between the the treatment people and the clinical people with a lot to do with money.
You know, and many of the futures in medicine at that time would say to them,
if you don't get the right thing, I would have probably thought, let's do something peculiar.
So the Cambridge intake for made them sit down.
Now, the one with notable exceptions, the that and quite a number.
But it was then that suddenly the attitude of the people, the people changed.
And in no time at all, we were having to require them to be interviewed,
to come into the room with a limited number of staff to compete with the Cambridge people.
And that change that was of huge significance in the mid to late sixties.
That's very interesting, because I think word on the ground now is that if you go to Cambridge, do you think.
Talks with the people they of Boston got a good deal as it yet,
so I did that even though I could say even a student and I mean that student level, the word lives, that also gives a good team.
So you did a stint as the students.
So tell us a bit about your time in this.
Well, some of the enjoyment, some of the challenges, perhaps even some amusing times is one of the challenges was that when I inherited it,
Michael Dunlow under pressure to the General Medical Council and rejected the claims, of course, and shortened that to three to two and a half years.
And I was faced with a rebellion on the grounds, and particularly from the surgeon,
that that sort of destroyed what they considered was the real ethos of the physical training.
You know, people were going to the extent of it and so on.
And so that had to be reversed.
And I suppose one of my early jobs was to put it back to three years and then, of course, a gap in terms of people qualified.
We had a father every six months and that we the to London for that and perhaps a little bit of a piece of paper and a lump sum of leatherette.
Good to fill those slots for that six months. And that's still does.
I remember the take taking between the time was actually quite equal.
About 25 each I think was actually made. And then and then the London and the people in Scotland said we had some trickle down from some.
And of course, what you had to have to be admitted here was an order degree.
So that really went up to Cambridge, London, down to 50 degrees.
So that was quite a challenge to reverse. Yes. But it was quite straightforward.
The way what I found at the time was the support on the southern side was from people like to to her that he was probably a true statement.
But the election was slightly for the times.
And Tim, the individual I took advice from, because very in mind I would say, you know, that, you know,
with a person of considerable authority and so relationships with the people who would
seem to me very important and now I feel compelled to serve in the medical school,
I realised that it was that these were the teachers that I had this teaching.
I still think he's a sort of individual people do remember. Yes.
And because he lived such a long time as well afterwards and he was influenced by, you know, people like his reminiscences of Nixon doing with the.
Very interesting.
In that sense, not only with the getting to know everybody across the board, literally at the dining table, I think that is something that we have.
And the other thing to say. I mean, most of the conversation would be a short sentence discussion,
and it wasn't difficult to know if I remember big guy, senior adviser on neurosurgery, for example.
And in those days, we have a neurological diagnosis.
The best thing was to get the anaesthesia and then try and get the pathology off of that.
And of course, the other side was pretty good at getting an FBI agent, abetted by Philip Sheldon,
that John Edwards, a foreign voice that we felt showed it was a neuro radiologist is what we've come to know.
And he has this extraordinary ability to say, what does this have done to the grassroots?
And through this massive phone, he was it was a tumour that was slow and so on.
Yes. Yes. I'm glad to hear that. He's still alive, you know, to and very civilised.
Very, very. Yes. Yeah. So that's something what was enjoyable about the job?
Obviously, it was quite demanding. Well, yes, it was. If you had to know it wasn't for her, you had to do your job at all.
So. So a lot of it went on in the early evening and this sort of thing.
But the enjoyment was associated with the medical students.
And you've got to move on when the numbers with that.
All right. Well, I mean, obviously, you know, the very good ones.
And there's a little bit of my feeling as well that we're currently organising a reunion at 40 years from those who qualified in 1972.
So I hope they'll be getting in touch with them in a rather nice. Terry Duffy, Peterburg, that of.
But yes, I remember all of them. And they're going to come together, the Oxford and Cambridge,
and they're going to say that I think we've got targeted about the most about 80 people and we hope to get 50, 60 to come alive.
So I hope that'll be an amusing times.
Were there any was there any particular, you remember on the march been blocking on the government so?
Well, the authorities surgeon, Robert, does not know that they will go on as a medical student at the time.
Oh, you do well, but not Peter Burns. No, no, younger than that.
You know, he was a must have been a student.
Yes. And he became a lecturer in the department will be retired.
Aha. And there was a few difficulties, however.
Well, if we think of something else, it'll come back.
So we talked about and we touched on the fact that at the moment, Oxford Medical School is very popular still.
Yeah, I wondered, what do you think is important in its current success?
Because I suppose it managed to keep some things of value for the poor side of it.
I read that 12 years ago, so I lost touch with the title.
But I think the the firm attitude, as it were, the the loyal to the public, is really very positive.
And I think that was quite valuable. One of the significant things, of course, in my direction, that includes the Green College.
Tell us a bit about that. Well, it was quite apparent that the the colleges at that time, some of them I mean, some of them were tremendous,
but some of them were left to in the sense that they didn't do very much for the students.
And we did in 1972 seven, they had available to us the trouble, the observatory,
because they've never been to the many research that move to England, to the new hospital.
It was one of the first things to move. And I think it was I remember there was a man called Trevor Asten, who was a historian, corpus,
and somehow he more less said to us that the only way you're going to alter the text is to try to create your own foundation.
And that's how this idea was formed.
And I was reputed to write a paper to all of them and not be for the bulk of the medicine at the time.
And it was a sort of bypass the General Water of University report prior to the abnormal council,
and it was chaired by the vice chancellor or a nominee or the vice chancellor.
So it was rather special in that sense.
And the paper I wrote was advancing the case for the medical students of a new foundation building code before Radcliffe College.
And then in the 1973 war, remember the the second Israeli Arab-Israeli war,
the economy collapsed three day week of all the sort of stuff you've got up through the parliament and the idea of raising money,
then we forgot about it until Hobie's was off by Richard Daley.
He might know someone who might be interested in this project and he knew a chap called Gibson and.
Who in turn said, yes, I think I do agree, who had declared to get his wish to do something in England before he died?
No, Green has been, I think, brought up in Manchester as a child.
The family emigrated, can be read to the University of British Columbia.
I think this is right and obviously had a distinguished career and I think he probably had a career choice before the war.
You want to go to commerce or academia. You chose commerce and the Texas Instruments and a great deal of money.
And he was a considerable benefactor in North America and Canada and has expressed his wish.
So, Richard, though, I think some of the witness to Arsalan announcement could come over and celebrate, and he did.
And I remember at law young adults who lived in northern Gaza, which was read that we had this meeting and don't let him,
whose job was to advance the argument for the senior people, many of whom were very distinguished but had no collegiate association.
A merger would advance the argument for the things you and I should say,
that I had taken a sort of straw poll of attitudes because Richard allowed us to do this.
And the signal I gave to Richard thought I don't feel is at stake.
Let's go ahead. Of course, that they will go back later on with present day.
Would no doubt about it. Yes, you can.
Quite a headache at the time, but there are ways and means to not always so and so.
Well, Samuel Greene and his wife are sitting there and Lancaster a most of the possible development of that site.
And he said, well, shall we do it? He said, yes.
And so and then the lawyers took over and the money was not to be available unless it started within about nine months on the first of the year.
And people go, oh, that's great.
So that's why I thought that the heritage people, conservation people forth, then interesting conversations about the title.
We we to. Right. Well, that was totally unacceptable.
Could we have read every note? We have been misled. No, we got rid of the special age 21 and finally got rid of the seven.
I wonder what you make of Green Temperton, but I think creativity is actually very different and I think that people would be great.
He would see the logic of all that. Yes. So that was quite significant and important in the early 70s and analysis back then.
I mean, later this was after I handed it over to John Lennon because I was above and was president
of the House and a cadre of medical students who had been seduced by the urge to have,
of all, suddenly found themselves coming into a building. And people understand a little bit frustrated.
And so that was a sort of see the rebellion. But I was the one who was extremely clever, but to us, extremely rare.
It causes no end of headaches. So he was the the great.
We always very much love the new. Yes. No, I mean, there was a real concern.
And that was part of the concern was people did not want the medical get out.
And Richard had absolutely no intention that that should happen. There was a problem to solve.
It can cause you to not be many people would think we'd like to leave this association, that that was all.
But right away, he was bringing in people from other people and he said, well, maybe this is my interpretation.
But what seemed to happen is some university well, I don't know if that's true or something.
And certainly the colleges that showed little interest in electing leaders and this,
that and the other suddenly began to show and interest and they were sort of competing with each other to take some of the new appointments,
which was. A slightly perverse result, but it was rather nice result.
That's very interesting because in a way,
I think both Oxford and Cambridge were a little reluctant to embrace what they saw as the professor, not to say the trade to economics.
And certainly when I was at Cambridge as an undergraduate, we were told which of the physiology lectures were clinically qualified.
And they were they had to work harder to maintain their academic status and credentials as well.
And yet Oxford, which has always had a stronger bias towards the humanities, has probably ended up with a new round.
Oh, I think so. Now, I think in terms of that sort of sort of development, probably over 10, 15, 20 years.
And that was because of the conditions before the war.
The determination that the cost of the war should continue to have fun and not just concentrate on the.
That's very interesting because I never thought of that quite so clearly, as you mentioned.
But nothing would be very pleased. I think that his benefactions would have contributed to the success of the.
She with the emphasis on people.
So I think it's I think it's a little better that way because one of the things that I noticed when I came in was particularly with me,
there was no hostility, tension between the domestic side and the health service.
I walked down that long corridor and was very as to who would pay value and who would pay.
And as things develop,
there were people on the university side with a great view of the world and people on the health service side who were doing great new research.
But no, they got it. And it wasn't until roughly the time I was retiring that this was required to be separated.
And the time and the old traditional not enough.
In other words, you know, you grew up together. And if you have this unwritten, undefined relationship,
I suppose you're one final question is going to be what's your view of the present state of affairs of medicine?
Oh, I think I mean, sitting on the sidelines now, it gives me great satisfaction to see this.
You mean let me tell you, people forget that.
And it really didn't take. The war, and it was pretty small.
I mean, after all, it was Americans school tacked on to a county hospital and began to really go quickly.
And then and then, of course, with the weather.
Wetherall. It was really sort of went up exponentially and now people at the rate is even greater and you now have a medical school,
we have a medical school of, well, significant without without any proof of that crime committed by U.S. troops.
And yet people cited as the people within the government, as himself and as John, that, of course, yes,
they understand what how the students take in the fact that the students are responsible for I mean, both of these individuals do that.
As I remember John Doe coming into the school.
Unbelievable story behind the John Stone telephone and said he has a gunshot wound to the road called the Canadian Right,
who didn't want to go back and really want to stay there for justice for the same amount of work.
And that became pretty self evident that this had to be very important, that he would meet the very young to study in that world.
And so he came in every other week. And I should say at this stage, Richard, always good to work.
And he gave you hope. And if you needed help, you got it quickly and reliably.
When I look back on that, and I suppose that epitomises the strength of individuals who make these decisions
individually and then agree with their collective important colleagues,
the fact that this cannot happen clearly and then effectively rather than always pulling the.
That's not happening. I think that it's all about.
Yes, and there may be moves, as you know, now we have at any one time 500 people, students, because there's a hundred and sixty to four years.
But there's a suggestion that we might, if we can, might not get a bit smaller.
What would you feel about that? Oh, I think of people have worked very hard to keep this place small.
And I think that's been very good for the institution. And 500 Americans, who is a lot and you can be it with as much as we had.
But then they went to school with about 150, 200, this sort of size.
Yes. But for me personally, fascinating to look back, yes,
to hearing about the Times just before I was very concerned because I'm of a huge privilege to
of been witness to the development of something that was very small and naturally insignificant.
But nevertheless, I felt pretty small to something of world significance.
And thank you very much for talking about it, because it's to get individual perspectives on things that are happening as part of the project and.
Really important, I think, that we know that these people about how it felt at the time.
And I can't remember the name of the latest Bulstrode raillery.
We've got it. Yes, it will cause a few headaches. But it was once I remember it was April 1st when they were experimenting with traffic
systems in the city and recognise that it was time to get all the traffic going in a circle.
And he did this and the police about half an hour to take what was happening.
And another thing he did one morning, the footprints all the way down moving forward.
And I think I had to sort of put disappointment to that very vague memory.
But before, you know, it was a bit of a headache at times, like fun to have around.
And I think to incorporate someone with his ability to make fun of it.
Mr. Hyman. So of Chris, whatever fireworks he let off, literally and metaphorically has been through to the really important projects,
in my view, to do with medical education but still still flourish, one is maybe.
Students teaching students, though I don't know whether he's training the trainers, which is the initiative from the university level.
Yes, to inspire those people who have been teaching some of them for a very long time.
Yes. Have new ways that they might approach, for instance, interactive seminars and interact.
Yes. Yes. And I think that Chris has picked up those on the.
His own way has also kind of been through because he has delivered many of these forces himself.
So I think I don't think I got that from my point of view is very slow.
So that decision has further the interests of the American people to do it.
And I think a wonderful a wonderful example of talent,
wittingly or unwittingly being spotted and fostered and tolerated in some ways, even encouraged and certainly remembered.
Certainly remember. Thank you very much, Kitty. And if I do that, it will play on record and this is me talking to Jim about Tinder.
Yes, well, no, I was portrayed, but not entirely currently, but very funny because, you know,
I walk around with my head on one side because this was portrayed in a very exaggerated fashion.
And the explanation was, my brains are on the right side of whatever it is.
And of course, my myopia was never one to go for the treatment for holding electrocardiogram about two inches from my nose enormously.
And then they would insist that I get into a large motor car and go to Maltman themselves to do an outpatient with three of them in the back.
And I think that caused a bit of amusement when you get out.
They are wicketkeepers, but they usually stop short of being cruel, I think.
Oh, absolutely. I think it's also a very, very good humour, the sort of thing, you know, you could take the girls to the children to make love to.
Yes. And I actually retired from the cinema because it got beyond me, beyond the joke that it was difficult for them to keep the humour.
What I would think was a respectable family. Know, I used to say to them, the crudités, the funnier it has to be, you know, you really can't.
Yeah, well, of course, when I first came to India, it was all men.
It's so the most part was taken by men in uniform with balloons popping.
And that was I mean, some of that was pretty crude, actually.
That was often not family stuff. And when the girls came in, that actually had the effect of cleaning it up and making it shows like family friendly.
You know, I used to remember as a student meeting the consultants in a different light and also the consultants wise because basically,
of course, women. But we got to know consultants.
Why? Well, you did, because you see in those days the phones were small and in fact, film.
I was very good at it. We were entertained, encouraged by laughter.
But I remember we spent Christmas with their family. You know, we were.
And I think she felt it was so important that we should continue to do it as a registrar in the NBA.
We do it regularly with when we lived in Boyle and then we moved.
Why do you have much more room? And when Flight and I joined up, we just alternate.
And every six months the hope would come to one of us in those days with the medical students as well.
I know later on we have to sort of, but we couldn't do it today.
And I think it began to fall apart when there were so many Hellstrom coming through the fold.
It wasn't having to forsake six. It used to be the two every two months time to work.
And so it became rather less personal. But that's where I come in.
And some of those folks, there's no I remember it must have been someone who just liked my right.
I remember the other guy tweeted, that is interesting because I think that has become I think that has now largely disappeared.
I suspect most of them did. And did you call the turkey?
Oh, yes. Yes, indirectly. The Turks. Oh, I must tell you, it's really quite funny.
We had a Labrador very wide and we'd have to have the recommended because there were hopes of being run by the right man.
And his name is this is very important.
And this is Barack who put some Wolf, those Greens preferences committee.
And Charlotte, the Labrador retriever, thought my treatment. And I thought, well, no, but if she has in 48 hours, we'll see.
She got elected and did that. And I got here about seven.
But the dog and Bill Miller was a vet and have people who we knew very well.
Now, I knew I couldn't find the vein of collapsed on. He couldn't.
So I phoned him and said, well, I don't have the vitamins.
And so I then wrote down the road into the newly constructed car and became a Richard lover and sister, love the sister in charge.
And I told her what was happening.
And so she gave me the car records, supplied me care I wrote back, got hold of Bill who put voted into this bill and it recovered.
It obviously had a petrol head, which is what happened to you up to the both of you.
And and then that Christmas sister, who was one of the very traditional that I've invited the dogs in the dongen.
So Charlotte was on the wall wandering up the war to the Christmas tree where been prepared for it.
And it was at that time that, yes, we did talk about this and the children with issue the food and Tim aged about sort of seven or eight,
would go around with the best health and safety, had hardly any impact at all.
And now a Labrador wandering what to look birds.
And obviously we did like the story. And I'm very glad that we to thank you for go to.