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So now I think this is the lights man who wanted to thank you for agreeing to talk about your time at Oxford University Medical School with me,

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I'm really sorry, College Oxford. In fact, now it's the first two to.

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So Jim came to Oxford first, I think, as a consultant. No, no, no, no.

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I came as a very junior senior. So I've got to start at the beginning.

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Please, please.

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The undergraduate that when it came and of course, teaching hospital and then at the time to tell me all it and done leave that sort of place.

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But I mean, Winston Churchill, I think when he was a member of parliament, he was it was reminiscing about his time in Dundee,

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sort of reflecting on the lovely silver, retired as he was on the table on the train, particularly when the train was pointing south.

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And I wrote the sentiments. And about six months before I was due to do my finals, I met and without very much hesitation,

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married or decided to marry Sheila, who was an undergraduate, and I reading all the time.

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And in June of 1959,

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I took my phone calls and then we got married Harrogate's and two days later went back up to Andrews to pick up our degrees and one day after that,

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got on the ship to go to Canada. Wow. And the reason for this was that I made close friends with two particular individuals.

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One was a young woman, Paul Evans, and his father was the Canadian ambassador to The Hague.

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And another was the Chapel George Post, who's an economist.

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A little bit strange to me in Kingston, Ontario, which is when you come across and you have to the books I wrote for them and I thought, that's fine.

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And I joined the cadre of the 1959 graduating class at Queen's University doing

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house jobs or internship with the report indicates the general hospital.

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So we went off by sea and started what the idea was to stay.

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Yeah, we come back, I think, and we ended up staying for two months and practising as a student and two in the laboratory of a professor of medicine,

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Michael Michael Brown, who was a Rhodes scholar here, and the reporters in the committee in our group, which is time.

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So when I said I'd like to go back home, he said Malcolm Brown bread,

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to which he said he had a young chap would like to come back already swamped with said, yes, it was a mistake.

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I need to think so. With no interviews, no nothing at all.

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I was deposited back here in Oxford in the summer of 1963, and I took over from Chris Pyne, who was the outgoing senior out of that time.

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And that was the beginning of another splendid friendship. And the Michael Denis guy was the registrar, a psychiatrist.

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That's right. Well, that is after about a year,

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I decided I want to mention one of these countries which was very sympathetic to this is the good people of Zimbabwe.

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And so I said, what kind of job? Yes. Lucky to have you and have to get food advertising.

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You could see that it was about it. And so I was with his last registrar and he retired in 1960 and OBC from Yaddo took over

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the chair and he would go because nobody really a little bit of a shadow available.

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And I was first registrar, so I have some clothes under folded up.

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And then with BCU, I think, to move and become a lecturer in medicine.

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And then my Uncle Francis card went off to Glasgow, retiring gerontology, the society and medical tutor, and that must have been in the late sixties.

35
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And and it was that time. Oh maybe.

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But yes, I think it was probably 1970. Would I take on the shift of.

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So that's how I came to office, and in those days, you got an honorary contract.

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So I was nothing about them. Well, certainly true love with she was on the beach and obviously the electricity and your bed and bed,

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not with the physician who was in private practise.

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And he was the one who would be doing all the work to bring people in.

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Some of considerable significance as and and so, yes, I mean, at that time and it was about this time, I guess, that you can see, I think.

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Michael, don't you think he would have done I guess when I came by in my life that I was in that slot and that was sentiment, I think.

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Right. But it wasn't until some degree football. Then I moved for the health.

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Something went terribly wrong and I took his post.

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Yes. And that's when you remember me. So I was like, whatever it was.

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So that's how I felt was my introduction was how it all goes.

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That's fascinating. I didn't even the slightest thing is that we met all of you.

48
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Yes, yes. Yes. One of the alumni. Yes.

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You were a general physician, but I remember that you had a particularly well thought that stem from which, of course,

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was a Obreht gastroenterologist when the two men empowered because haematology

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researchers would love to do with and V12 and that you associate with the gut.

52
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So to do it in those days, you ologists.

53
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It's the old physician, John Berman, for example,

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that the emphasis on stem to read books and idiopathic Stateville having to collect people back to find that sort of stuff.

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And we called the capsule that come in really until the late 60s revolutionised the gastroenterologist.

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And also I remember him and do the first endoscopy.

57
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Right. A tiny room of the NBN. Yes. Yes. Well, centralisers, I mean, before fibre optic of the Japanese would important role and.

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She wanted to try and ground and certainly one of the very early fiberoptic scopes and I told about that.

59
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So, yeah, I mean, the interesting haematology it was was with your wits and then that sort of move or the myeloma,

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but always out there of what America would call general internal medicine.

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I'm very impressed that you did UNCHR jobs in Canada, so you would have seen medical training standards and then go to get.

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What was the biggest one of many differences between Canadian medicine and English medicine at that time?

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Of course, it was a cross-fertilisation,

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but I wasn't aware of any evidence that the scale of things was very small to what they did now in Queensland is.

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I think in the landru at the time, it was I think she had to study in Dundee and they came together at that time, the biggest amount of attrition.

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So I think the graduating class was about 60, but it was only a very small, small scale.

67
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You know, it's interesting because it would be interesting to know how they're different nowadays, whether or not that is very true.

68
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And you please tell me something, your experience with writing and working in Oxford,

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because it's rather sort of mutual, which is a very unusual place to practise and that you've already touched on.

70
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Well, it was of course, it was all very small. You knew about it very quickly and interacted with it when you went to lunch with you.

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There'll be a sort of table to consult, but you've got to know better than the other side.

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Do so well in obstetrics and and the with a neurology and all the and the only and the were people and the people and the women as it were,

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and the matron. So it was all very timely.

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And of course we're talking about a time when the medical school in fact, you have to look this up, but it must have been on the order of 30.

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And one significant thing that occurred and George picked them up and went to work and I think

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1967 was that he persuaded the Cambridge medical pupils to begin patronising rather than London.

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And it was a very significant input from Cambridge in the mid 60s that made the tutors here a lovely take note that

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always been a little bit of tension between the the treatment people and the clinical people with a lot to do with money.

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You know, and many of the futures in medicine at that time would say to them,

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if you don't get the right thing, I would have probably thought, let's do something peculiar.

81
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So the Cambridge intake for made them sit down.

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Now, the one with notable exceptions, the that and quite a number.

83
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But it was then that suddenly the attitude of the people, the people changed.

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And in no time at all, we were having to require them to be interviewed,

85
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to come into the room with a limited number of staff to compete with the Cambridge people.

86
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And that change that was of huge significance in the mid to late sixties.

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That's very interesting, because I think word on the ground now is that if you go to Cambridge, do you think.

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Talks with the people they of Boston got a good deal as it yet,

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so I did that even though I could say even a student and I mean that student level, the word lives, that also gives a good team.

90
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So you did a stint as the students.

91
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So tell us a bit about your time in this.

92
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Well, some of the enjoyment, some of the challenges, perhaps even some amusing times is one of the challenges was that when I inherited it,

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Michael Dunlow under pressure to the General Medical Council and rejected the claims, of course, and shortened that to three to two and a half years.

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And I was faced with a rebellion on the grounds, and particularly from the surgeon,

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that that sort of destroyed what they considered was the real ethos of the physical training.

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You know, people were going to the extent of it and so on.

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And so that had to be reversed.

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And I suppose one of my early jobs was to put it back to three years and then, of course, a gap in terms of people qualified.

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We had a father every six months and that we the to London for that and perhaps a little bit of a piece of paper and a lump sum of leatherette.

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Good to fill those slots for that six months. And that's still does.

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I remember the take taking between the time was actually quite equal.

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About 25 each I think was actually made. And then and then the London and the people in Scotland said we had some trickle down from some.

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And of course, what you had to have to be admitted here was an order degree.

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So that really went up to Cambridge, London, down to 50 degrees.

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So that was quite a challenge to reverse. Yes. But it was quite straightforward.

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The way what I found at the time was the support on the southern side was from people like to to her that he was probably a true statement.

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But the election was slightly for the times.

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And Tim, the individual I took advice from, because very in mind I would say, you know, that, you know,

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with a person of considerable authority and so relationships with the people who would

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seem to me very important and now I feel compelled to serve in the medical school,

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I realised that it was that these were the teachers that I had this teaching.

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I still think he's a sort of individual people do remember. Yes.

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And because he lived such a long time as well afterwards and he was influenced by, you know, people like his reminiscences of Nixon doing with the.

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Very interesting.

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In that sense, not only with the getting to know everybody across the board, literally at the dining table, I think that is something that we have.

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And the other thing to say. I mean, most of the conversation would be a short sentence discussion,

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and it wasn't difficult to know if I remember big guy, senior adviser on neurosurgery, for example.

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And in those days, we have a neurological diagnosis.

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The best thing was to get the anaesthesia and then try and get the pathology off of that.

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And of course, the other side was pretty good at getting an FBI agent, abetted by Philip Sheldon,

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that John Edwards, a foreign voice that we felt showed it was a neuro radiologist is what we've come to know.

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And he has this extraordinary ability to say, what does this have done to the grassroots?

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And through this massive phone, he was it was a tumour that was slow and so on.

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Yes. Yes. I'm glad to hear that. He's still alive, you know, to and very civilised.

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Very, very. Yes. Yeah. So that's something what was enjoyable about the job?

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Obviously, it was quite demanding. Well, yes, it was. If you had to know it wasn't for her, you had to do your job at all.

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So. So a lot of it went on in the early evening and this sort of thing.

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But the enjoyment was associated with the medical students.

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And you've got to move on when the numbers with that.

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All right. Well, I mean, obviously, you know, the very good ones.

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And there's a little bit of my feeling as well that we're currently organising a reunion at 40 years from those who qualified in 1972.

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So I hope they'll be getting in touch with them in a rather nice. Terry Duffy, Peterburg, that of.

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But yes, I remember all of them. And they're going to come together, the Oxford and Cambridge,

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and they're going to say that I think we've got targeted about the most about 80 people and we hope to get 50, 60 to come alive.

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So I hope that'll be an amusing times.

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Were there any was there any particular, you remember on the march been blocking on the government so?

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Well, the authorities surgeon, Robert, does not know that they will go on as a medical student at the time.

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Oh, you do well, but not Peter Burns. No, no, younger than that.

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You know, he was a must have been a student.

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Yes. And he became a lecturer in the department will be retired.

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Aha. And there was a few difficulties, however.

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Well, if we think of something else, it'll come back.

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So we talked about and we touched on the fact that at the moment, Oxford Medical School is very popular still.

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Yeah, I wondered, what do you think is important in its current success?

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Because I suppose it managed to keep some things of value for the poor side of it.

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I read that 12 years ago, so I lost touch with the title.

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But I think the the firm attitude, as it were, the the loyal to the public, is really very positive.

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And I think that was quite valuable. One of the significant things, of course, in my direction, that includes the Green College.

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Tell us a bit about that. Well, it was quite apparent that the the colleges at that time, some of them I mean, some of them were tremendous,

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but some of them were left to in the sense that they didn't do very much for the students.

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And we did in 1972 seven, they had available to us the trouble, the observatory,

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because they've never been to the many research that move to England, to the new hospital.

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It was one of the first things to move. And I think it was I remember there was a man called Trevor Asten, who was a historian, corpus,

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and somehow he more less said to us that the only way you're going to alter the text is to try to create your own foundation.

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And that's how this idea was formed.

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And I was reputed to write a paper to all of them and not be for the bulk of the medicine at the time.

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And it was a sort of bypass the General Water of University report prior to the abnormal council,

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and it was chaired by the vice chancellor or a nominee or the vice chancellor.

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So it was rather special in that sense.

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And the paper I wrote was advancing the case for the medical students of a new foundation building code before Radcliffe College.

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And then in the 1973 war, remember the the second Israeli Arab-Israeli war,

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the economy collapsed three day week of all the sort of stuff you've got up through the parliament and the idea of raising money,

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then we forgot about it until Hobie's was off by Richard Daley.

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He might know someone who might be interested in this project and he knew a chap called Gibson and.

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Who in turn said, yes, I think I do agree, who had declared to get his wish to do something in England before he died?

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No, Green has been, I think, brought up in Manchester as a child.

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The family emigrated, can be read to the University of British Columbia.

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I think this is right and obviously had a distinguished career and I think he probably had a career choice before the war.

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You want to go to commerce or academia. You chose commerce and the Texas Instruments and a great deal of money.

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And he was a considerable benefactor in North America and Canada and has expressed his wish.

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So, Richard, though, I think some of the witness to Arsalan announcement could come over and celebrate, and he did.

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And I remember at law young adults who lived in northern Gaza, which was read that we had this meeting and don't let him,

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whose job was to advance the argument for the senior people, many of whom were very distinguished but had no collegiate association.

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A merger would advance the argument for the things you and I should say,

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that I had taken a sort of straw poll of attitudes because Richard allowed us to do this.

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And the signal I gave to Richard thought I don't feel is at stake.

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Let's go ahead. Of course, that they will go back later on with present day.

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Would no doubt about it. Yes, you can.

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Quite a headache at the time, but there are ways and means to not always so and so.

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Well, Samuel Greene and his wife are sitting there and Lancaster a most of the possible development of that site.

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And he said, well, shall we do it? He said, yes.

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And so and then the lawyers took over and the money was not to be available unless it started within about nine months on the first of the year.

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And people go, oh, that's great.

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So that's why I thought that the heritage people, conservation people forth, then interesting conversations about the title.

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We we to. Right. Well, that was totally unacceptable.

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Could we have read every note? We have been misled. No, we got rid of the special age 21 and finally got rid of the seven.

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I wonder what you make of Green Temperton, but I think creativity is actually very different and I think that people would be great.

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He would see the logic of all that. Yes. So that was quite significant and important in the early 70s and analysis back then.

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I mean, later this was after I handed it over to John Lennon because I was above and was president

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of the House and a cadre of medical students who had been seduced by the urge to have,

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of all, suddenly found themselves coming into a building. And people understand a little bit frustrated.

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And so that was a sort of see the rebellion. But I was the one who was extremely clever, but to us, extremely rare.

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It causes no end of headaches. So he was the the great.

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We always very much love the new. Yes. No, I mean, there was a real concern.

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And that was part of the concern was people did not want the medical get out.

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And Richard had absolutely no intention that that should happen. There was a problem to solve.

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It can cause you to not be many people would think we'd like to leave this association, that that was all.

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But right away, he was bringing in people from other people and he said, well, maybe this is my interpretation.

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But what seemed to happen is some university well, I don't know if that's true or something.

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And certainly the colleges that showed little interest in electing leaders and this,

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that and the other suddenly began to show and interest and they were sort of competing with each other to take some of the new appointments,

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which was. A slightly perverse result, but it was rather nice result.

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That's very interesting because in a way,

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I think both Oxford and Cambridge were a little reluctant to embrace what they saw as the professor, not to say the trade to economics.

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And certainly when I was at Cambridge as an undergraduate, we were told which of the physiology lectures were clinically qualified.

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And they were they had to work harder to maintain their academic status and credentials as well.

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And yet Oxford, which has always had a stronger bias towards the humanities, has probably ended up with a new round.

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Oh, I think so. Now, I think in terms of that sort of sort of development, probably over 10, 15, 20 years.

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And that was because of the conditions before the war.

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The determination that the cost of the war should continue to have fun and not just concentrate on the.

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That's very interesting because I never thought of that quite so clearly, as you mentioned.

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But nothing would be very pleased. I think that his benefactions would have contributed to the success of the.

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She with the emphasis on people.

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So I think it's I think it's a little better that way because one of the things that I noticed when I came in was particularly with me,

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there was no hostility, tension between the domestic side and the health service.

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I walked down that long corridor and was very as to who would pay value and who would pay.

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And as things develop,

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there were people on the university side with a great view of the world and people on the health service side who were doing great new research.

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But no, they got it. And it wasn't until roughly the time I was retiring that this was required to be separated.

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And the time and the old traditional not enough.

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In other words, you know, you grew up together. And if you have this unwritten, undefined relationship,

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I suppose you're one final question is going to be what's your view of the present state of affairs of medicine?

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Oh, I think I mean, sitting on the sidelines now, it gives me great satisfaction to see this.

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You mean let me tell you, people forget that.

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And it really didn't take. The war, and it was pretty small.

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I mean, after all, it was Americans school tacked on to a county hospital and began to really go quickly.

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And then and then, of course, with the weather.

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Wetherall. It was really sort of went up exponentially and now people at the rate is even greater and you now have a medical school,

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we have a medical school of, well, significant without without any proof of that crime committed by U.S. troops.

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And yet people cited as the people within the government, as himself and as John, that, of course, yes,

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they understand what how the students take in the fact that the students are responsible for I mean, both of these individuals do that.

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As I remember John Doe coming into the school.

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Unbelievable story behind the John Stone telephone and said he has a gunshot wound to the road called the Canadian Right,

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who didn't want to go back and really want to stay there for justice for the same amount of work.

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And that became pretty self evident that this had to be very important, that he would meet the very young to study in that world.

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And so he came in every other week. And I should say at this stage, Richard, always good to work.

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And he gave you hope. And if you needed help, you got it quickly and reliably.

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When I look back on that, and I suppose that epitomises the strength of individuals who make these decisions

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individually and then agree with their collective important colleagues,

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the fact that this cannot happen clearly and then effectively rather than always pulling the.

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That's not happening. I think that it's all about.

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Yes, and there may be moves, as you know, now we have at any one time 500 people, students, because there's a hundred and sixty to four years.

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But there's a suggestion that we might, if we can, might not get a bit smaller.

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What would you feel about that? Oh, I think of people have worked very hard to keep this place small.

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And I think that's been very good for the institution. And 500 Americans, who is a lot and you can be it with as much as we had.

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But then they went to school with about 150, 200, this sort of size.

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Yes. But for me personally, fascinating to look back, yes,

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to hearing about the Times just before I was very concerned because I'm of a huge privilege to

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of been witness to the development of something that was very small and naturally insignificant.

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But nevertheless, I felt pretty small to something of world significance.

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And thank you very much for talking about it, because it's to get individual perspectives on things that are happening as part of the project and.

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Really important, I think, that we know that these people about how it felt at the time.

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And I can't remember the name of the latest Bulstrode raillery.

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We've got it. Yes, it will cause a few headaches. But it was once I remember it was April 1st when they were experimenting with traffic

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systems in the city and recognise that it was time to get all the traffic going in a circle.

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And he did this and the police about half an hour to take what was happening.

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And another thing he did one morning, the footprints all the way down moving forward.

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And I think I had to sort of put disappointment to that very vague memory.

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But before, you know, it was a bit of a headache at times, like fun to have around.

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And I think to incorporate someone with his ability to make fun of it.

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Mr. Hyman. So of Chris, whatever fireworks he let off, literally and metaphorically has been through to the really important projects,

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in my view, to do with medical education but still still flourish, one is maybe.

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Students teaching students, though I don't know whether he's training the trainers, which is the initiative from the university level.

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Yes, to inspire those people who have been teaching some of them for a very long time.

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Yes. Have new ways that they might approach, for instance, interactive seminars and interact.

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Yes. Yes. And I think that Chris has picked up those on the.

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His own way has also kind of been through because he has delivered many of these forces himself.

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So I think I don't think I got that from my point of view is very slow.

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So that decision has further the interests of the American people to do it.

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And I think a wonderful a wonderful example of talent,

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wittingly or unwittingly being spotted and fostered and tolerated in some ways, even encouraged and certainly remembered.

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Certainly remember. Thank you very much, Kitty. And if I do that, it will play on record and this is me talking to Jim about Tinder.

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Yes, well, no, I was portrayed, but not entirely currently, but very funny because, you know,

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I walk around with my head on one side because this was portrayed in a very exaggerated fashion.

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And the explanation was, my brains are on the right side of whatever it is.

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And of course, my myopia was never one to go for the treatment for holding electrocardiogram about two inches from my nose enormously.

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And then they would insist that I get into a large motor car and go to Maltman themselves to do an outpatient with three of them in the back.

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And I think that caused a bit of amusement when you get out.

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They are wicketkeepers, but they usually stop short of being cruel, I think.

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Oh, absolutely. I think it's also a very, very good humour, the sort of thing, you know, you could take the girls to the children to make love to.

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Yes. And I actually retired from the cinema because it got beyond me, beyond the joke that it was difficult for them to keep the humour.

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What I would think was a respectable family. Know, I used to say to them, the crudités, the funnier it has to be, you know, you really can't.

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Yeah, well, of course, when I first came to India, it was all men.

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It's so the most part was taken by men in uniform with balloons popping.

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And that was I mean, some of that was pretty crude, actually.

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That was often not family stuff. And when the girls came in, that actually had the effect of cleaning it up and making it shows like family friendly.

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You know, I used to remember as a student meeting the consultants in a different light and also the consultants wise because basically,

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of course, women. But we got to know consultants.

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Why? Well, you did, because you see in those days the phones were small and in fact, film.

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I was very good at it. We were entertained, encouraged by laughter.

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But I remember we spent Christmas with their family. You know, we were.

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And I think she felt it was so important that we should continue to do it as a registrar in the NBA.

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We do it regularly with when we lived in Boyle and then we moved.

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Why do you have much more room? And when Flight and I joined up, we just alternate.

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And every six months the hope would come to one of us in those days with the medical students as well.

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I know later on we have to sort of, but we couldn't do it today.

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And I think it began to fall apart when there were so many Hellstrom coming through the fold.

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It wasn't having to forsake six. It used to be the two every two months time to work.

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And so it became rather less personal. But that's where I come in.

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And some of those folks, there's no I remember it must have been someone who just liked my right.

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I remember the other guy tweeted, that is interesting because I think that has become I think that has now largely disappeared.

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I suspect most of them did. And did you call the turkey?

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Oh, yes. Yes, indirectly. The Turks. Oh, I must tell you, it's really quite funny.

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We had a Labrador very wide and we'd have to have the recommended because there were hopes of being run by the right man.

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And his name is this is very important.

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And this is Barack who put some Wolf, those Greens preferences committee.

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And Charlotte, the Labrador retriever, thought my treatment. And I thought, well, no, but if she has in 48 hours, we'll see.

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She got elected and did that. And I got here about seven.

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But the dog and Bill Miller was a vet and have people who we knew very well.

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Now, I knew I couldn't find the vein of collapsed on. He couldn't.

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So I phoned him and said, well, I don't have the vitamins.

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And so I then wrote down the road into the newly constructed car and became a Richard lover and sister, love the sister in charge.

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And I told her what was happening.

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And so she gave me the car records, supplied me care I wrote back, got hold of Bill who put voted into this bill and it recovered.

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It obviously had a petrol head, which is what happened to you up to the both of you.

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And and then that Christmas sister, who was one of the very traditional that I've invited the dogs in the dongen.

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So Charlotte was on the wall wandering up the war to the Christmas tree where been prepared for it.

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And it was at that time that, yes, we did talk about this and the children with issue the food and Tim aged about sort of seven or eight,

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would go around with the best health and safety, had hardly any impact at all.

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And now a Labrador wandering what to look birds.

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And obviously we did like the story. And I'm very glad that we to thank you for go to.