1 00:00:01,140 --> 00:00:09,450 Interviewing oh, gosh, God, Derek Hockaday on the 7th of March. 2 00:00:09,450 --> 00:00:16,860 Um, Guthrie, I think you would have come up to the Oxford Medical School, which in a sense is what we're talking about. 3 00:00:16,860 --> 00:00:21,840 You'd have come up in forty nine point fifty eight, right? 4 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:27,150 Yeah. And what did you think of the admissions procedure? 5 00:00:27,150 --> 00:00:37,080 Well, from what I remember, the admission came up in late 49 to sit a second exam, 6 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:51,060 discover that you never had a medical scholarship and a scholarship exam and invading a hall in 1949 for six colleges who were doing at the same time. 7 00:00:51,060 --> 00:00:58,170 And I made them a bit. Chapel sandhogs, those are wonderful chapels looking after us for the week. 8 00:00:58,170 --> 00:01:09,060 So we spent the whole week, um, sitting on about ten, three hour papers or something, and I decided staying. 9 00:01:09,060 --> 00:01:13,950 And you knew that there was no way I was going to get into this great university. 10 00:01:13,950 --> 00:01:26,370 So we were told on a Friday night that those who were going to be interviewed would be put up, but then I would put up on the list and to launch. 11 00:01:26,370 --> 00:01:34,020 So on the way to the station 71, I thought I better go and just check that your name isn't on it. 12 00:01:34,020 --> 00:01:37,680 And I remember a great feeling of disappointment, actually, 13 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:44,400 that my name was on it because I'd really decided I didn't want to come to my put off by the fact 14 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:49,920 that all the chaps around in the exams would be cleverer than being a little bit of schools, 15 00:01:49,920 --> 00:02:04,620 which I happen to love something. Uh, but anyway, I did stay on until Saturday and I remember being interviewed in uniform by the master tutor there, 16 00:02:04,620 --> 00:02:13,230 Daniel Cunningham, who was a very young who came out to be a tutor. And much to my surprise, I was offered a scholarship. 17 00:02:13,230 --> 00:02:21,600 So there's no two ways about it. So at the end, the sentencing was very simple as far as I was concerned. 18 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:28,710 Well, it made you go try for Oxford in the first. Well, no one from my school ever been to Oxford or Cambridge, 19 00:02:28,710 --> 00:02:36,330 and I'd done my schools to get hospitals to school, had a chemistry master who thought I was a clever chap. 20 00:02:36,330 --> 00:02:44,580 I knew I wanted to do it. And he said, you know, I aim high, go for Oxford or Cambridge. 21 00:02:44,580 --> 00:02:49,890 And the headmaster said, wasted time. Anybody from this school's ever done before. 22 00:02:49,890 --> 00:02:57,410 This was in the Partridge's system Worcestershire and want to share and master insisted that I did it. 23 00:02:57,410 --> 00:03:01,260 So it was entirely down to him. But I actually did that. 24 00:03:01,260 --> 00:03:05,280 And, you know, I think what a wonderful man he was. 25 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:10,620 Give him that opportunity. So it was it was actually much simpler than one month before. 26 00:03:10,620 --> 00:03:14,850 So when you came, you know, settled in, did you regret it or were you glad? 27 00:03:14,850 --> 00:03:25,380 I felt very comfortable. I can remember during the first year that I was at University College because I did feel that I had, 28 00:03:25,380 --> 00:03:30,630 um, I was a bit out of my depth in terms of social media. 29 00:03:30,630 --> 00:03:36,360 Yes. And when I was I came from a very, very simple, humble background. 30 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:41,340 You know, I had parents both left school at 14 and all of that. 31 00:03:41,340 --> 00:03:44,960 So it was actually a great shock to me to be in such a hard part. 32 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:49,140 And did you feel in any sense you were bullied, socially bullied? 33 00:03:49,140 --> 00:03:54,500 Not physically. I also have to go and say I did. I mean, I think everybody was very kind. 34 00:03:54,500 --> 00:03:55,800 I have to say that. 35 00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:06,970 And I got very interested in rock climbing for some reason, partly because I tried a lot of trees as a boy, and that really was my enthusiasm. 36 00:04:06,970 --> 00:04:12,930 So did you find the colleges? Yes, I'm afraid so. The relative calm? 37 00:04:12,930 --> 00:04:18,090 Yeah, I can't remember. Oh, yes. The camera certainly was one thing. 38 00:04:18,090 --> 00:04:24,780 And I remember very well getting around the overhang with a people ended up getting hung out with lightning. 39 00:04:24,780 --> 00:04:32,040 Conductor The only way you could do that, someone and many years later was killed in the Antarctic when it came off. 40 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:36,120 But yes, I'm afraid I did that. And with that night. Did you do that? 41 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:40,320 Yes, we did it at night and it was like it. So that was one of the things that was done. 42 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:44,160 And nobody thought it was powerful and it was exciting. Yeah, that's right. 43 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:49,170 I wouldn't do it today. And so then you did B.M. after two years. 44 00:04:49,170 --> 00:04:53,400 Yes. And then went on for years. Who's with it? Yes, that's right. 45 00:04:53,400 --> 00:05:00,310 And how did you enjoy the two different bits of it? Yeah, I think it was very exciting to have the. 46 00:05:00,310 --> 00:05:06,820 To schools to test himself, and I was, I must say, 47 00:05:06,820 --> 00:05:16,120 what tutor wanted me to stay home and do a see and D for I didn't want to do that because I was able to get on and get qualified. 48 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:23,010 That was my ambition. And to get somewhere nice and then you to other tutors. 49 00:05:23,010 --> 00:05:32,540 So yes. One well to one particular uh uh who is a biochemist. 50 00:05:32,540 --> 00:05:37,700 Uh gosh. What's his name. Pembroke Brown. 51 00:05:37,700 --> 00:05:42,550 That's right. Who is a very lively, very different from from from dad. 52 00:05:42,550 --> 00:05:47,920 And actually when I came back to talk to Percy, came into my surgery once, 53 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:52,930 I had one day and said, I've never had a doctor, you know, but I hate doctors. 54 00:05:52,930 --> 00:05:59,410 But I've discovered you come back as a GP. And I think I'd like to register with you since I've talked to you. 55 00:05:59,410 --> 00:06:04,340 Good idea. Yeah. And do you remember people lecturing and so on? 56 00:06:04,340 --> 00:06:08,470 I mean, what do you remember in that those years? 57 00:06:08,470 --> 00:06:13,570 Who were the good lecturers? I didn't get any lecture and we didn't get too many lectures. 58 00:06:13,570 --> 00:06:22,900 I think in those those years, uh, I can't honestly remember. 59 00:06:22,900 --> 00:06:28,690 There was a there was a book by a chemist or Percy O'Brien. 60 00:06:28,690 --> 00:06:34,630 I've already mentioned that there was a nice chap at that meeting. 61 00:06:34,630 --> 00:06:40,810 Possible. Yes. Yes. Who is a very persuasive lecturer. 62 00:06:40,810 --> 00:06:45,160 Uh, and well, I thought there was a chap at your college as well. 63 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:49,090 But George, good work on a front who was, I think, very good. 64 00:06:49,090 --> 00:06:55,900 It's good. And cramps people that I didn't come across at that time, but I did later. 65 00:06:55,900 --> 00:07:02,200 Yeah. In retrospect, as a patient, well, through Percy Rysiek O'Brien, who said, you know, 66 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:07,580 it's down to me that I had a place in Oxford because nobody else was interested. 67 00:07:07,580 --> 00:07:15,040 Therefore I didn't know that. No. And but nobody thinks he was the guy who persuaded him to come. 68 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:21,840 Well, that's what he didn't say. It provided him with some accommodation initially, apparently in his in his lap. 69 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:28,450 It was claimed that. Right. That is fascinating. And then he was that in the thirties or in the fifties. 70 00:07:28,450 --> 00:07:34,660 In the fifties. Yes. And then. Right. And then why did you decide to go down to London? 71 00:07:34,660 --> 00:07:38,260 Well, there was really no choice in those days, from what I can remember. 72 00:07:38,260 --> 00:07:42,310 I know I was aware I think there was seventy two in my year. 73 00:07:42,310 --> 00:07:46,630 And I seem to remember there are six people who stayed home in Oxford, 74 00:07:46,630 --> 00:07:50,920 but they were all people who were married, had families or had reasons like that. 75 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,790 So it was never discussed with me whether I should stay on in Oxford. 76 00:07:54,790 --> 00:08:02,770 And I it was assumed and I was told by a town that, uh, that since I wasn't a record player, uh, 77 00:08:02,770 --> 00:08:09,490 the best thing to do was get to a place like, you know, and those is why I did what I was told to. 78 00:08:09,490 --> 00:08:18,490 Really you were directed to use it. But that morning, I mean, I didn't know anything about it, so I was happy for him to do that. 79 00:08:18,490 --> 00:08:24,550 And he said, you know, it was one of the more serious candidate schools initiated. 80 00:08:24,550 --> 00:08:28,450 Some of the others were into sport. Yeah. 81 00:08:28,450 --> 00:08:34,870 Then what made you eventually to come back to Oxford? Because I know that's very interesting time in between, but we meant to talk about Oxford. 82 00:08:34,870 --> 00:08:44,770 Well, that was that was really rather freakish in that I think I was destined to to go on to do paediatrics because I get just initial job. 83 00:08:44,770 --> 00:08:56,020 But at that age and I got did the membership and then I did a job to go to Warren Street for a short time with, 84 00:08:56,020 --> 00:09:00,470 uh, with the two paediatricians from U.S. age. 85 00:09:00,470 --> 00:09:10,510 I wasn't sure I wanted to be in paediatrics. And the thing that I one of the things that's when I became became a registrar back accusations of locum, 86 00:09:10,510 --> 00:09:17,410 one of the things I hated was having to see the parents of children who had died on the ward. 87 00:09:17,410 --> 00:09:25,360 And in those days it was quite common because of congenital heart disease or some treatable leukaemia was treatable. 88 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:32,320 Childhood cancers could not come up short on time and awards and paediatric teaching hospital. 89 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:39,460 And I thought, gosh, I don't want to spend my life interviewing parents who've lost children because I find it a very painful thing to do. 90 00:09:39,460 --> 00:09:47,530 But I always had the ambition to be a GP because that was really, I think, based on the village doctor where I lived. 91 00:09:47,530 --> 00:09:59,940 But I like him and his job. And so, uh, so I as a student, had gone down to spend a week with the GP in Wiltshire, in Chippenham, and he was. 92 00:09:59,940 --> 00:10:06,960 U.S. chap who was willing to have occasional students and that was common in those days, and I like that idea. 93 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:15,120 Uh, but it was really the day that the talked you knew I was uncertain about what I would do and I'd done the job for him. 94 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:22,080 At your house, you said, well, there's a very good practise in Oxford looking for a new GP. 95 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:28,770 I think I know him because the chap with the U.S. age years ago is very highly regarded person. 96 00:10:28,770 --> 00:10:32,730 Um, why don't you go and see him and see whether they are interested. 97 00:10:32,730 --> 00:10:38,880 So I came up to Oxford to see this chap and I was very taken by him and he said, yes, 98 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:44,460 well, why don't you come for a year and we're happy to take you for a year as a trainee. 99 00:10:44,460 --> 00:10:51,670 And if you like it, you can stay on and we'll feel like you. We'll keep you on, uh, if you don't want to go back to what you were doing. 100 00:10:51,670 --> 00:11:00,750 And I spent a year in Oxford with him and I was convinced that that was really what I wanted to do, 101 00:11:00,750 --> 00:11:04,650 particularly as I then had become quite a reasonable young paediatrician. 102 00:11:04,650 --> 00:11:14,310 And I felt confident about dealing with children. And I could see that that was very important in paediatrics and, yes, in general practise. 103 00:11:14,310 --> 00:11:18,820 And so that's how it happened. And was red and green the other part? 104 00:11:18,820 --> 00:11:22,960 No, he wasn't. He wasn't. Then he had been in the past environment. 105 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:33,000 Green had gone back to London to be a hospital consultant some years before, and I think he kept his interest in was so disease. 106 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:38,130 Yes. And when you joined it, was it still in the road or had you moved? 107 00:11:38,130 --> 00:11:43,530 No, no. It was stemmed from being from Alan Richards that he was the senior partner. 108 00:11:43,530 --> 00:11:48,810 There was another part. It was not a very prominent partner, but he was a nice enough chap. 109 00:11:48,810 --> 00:11:53,190 But he didn't prepare with Alan was as good quality as a GP. 110 00:11:53,190 --> 00:12:00,810 He lived the practise from his house in Bavaria, and that's where I worked for him for the first few years as well. 111 00:12:00,810 --> 00:12:03,960 So when did students begin to appear in the. 112 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:14,200 Well, I high school students didn't really see anything of general practise in those early days of time, as I remember. 113 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:23,310 But I used to have occasional students come into my practise because the medical students would say to the director of clinical studies, 114 00:12:23,310 --> 00:12:31,860 can't we see something good? General practitioner and I was identified as a young GP, was willing to have students in its practise. 115 00:12:31,860 --> 00:12:36,900 So I used to have students come into the practise from time to time. And I greatly enjoyed that. 116 00:12:36,900 --> 00:12:41,010 And I think I think they enjoyed it, too. 117 00:12:41,010 --> 00:12:46,380 And I you know, I learn things from students. I remember one of the things I used to say, 118 00:12:46,380 --> 00:12:51,870 particularly in my early years in general practise to patients who I really didn't know what was wrong with them. 119 00:12:51,870 --> 00:13:00,450 I would sort of take their histories and examine them and say, oh, I don't know what it is, what do you think it is? 120 00:13:00,450 --> 00:13:06,570 And students said to me they'd never heard somebody in the hospital say that to them. 121 00:13:06,570 --> 00:13:14,190 And I must say, I found that a very useful it's a very good question with so was used to say, what do you want me to do for you? 122 00:13:14,190 --> 00:13:18,360 Which is another very good question. And when he was really puzzled and. 123 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:23,060 Yes, yes. Um, but I was very keen that students should learn more about their profession. 124 00:13:23,060 --> 00:13:26,130 So I think I was part of a sort of small pressure group, 125 00:13:26,130 --> 00:13:36,390 was trying to encourage the medical school to do something about giving students, um, uh, some sort of contact with you. 126 00:13:36,390 --> 00:13:43,530 And Andrew would be doing this that time. Yes, I knew him. Of course, it was a very close friend of mine because we've been unified together. 127 00:13:43,530 --> 00:13:51,690 We've been negotiated together. And I like to think that Andrew gave up his ideas of being a hospital doctor to become a GP. 128 00:13:51,690 --> 00:13:57,150 Because I come back to Oxford, I survived for a year or two and he thought, well, it can't be so bad. 129 00:13:57,150 --> 00:14:01,050 They've got to. So you went into general practise beforehand? Yes, I did. 130 00:14:01,050 --> 00:14:05,340 Right. I came I came in here in nineteen fifty nine. 131 00:14:05,340 --> 00:14:14,310 Right. Uh, and it wasn't a popular choice with students in those days and I would I think had been watching the importance of arrogance. 132 00:14:14,310 --> 00:14:20,970 And had you done national service. No, I didn't do national service. And that was, that was one of the differences. 133 00:14:20,970 --> 00:14:29,130 Yes. There. And then um and the group you say, can you name any of the others who were keen on this, 134 00:14:29,130 --> 00:14:35,850 on the GP's who were trying to get the school to do something? 135 00:14:35,850 --> 00:14:41,060 Um, yes. That's Michael. Yeah. Michael was I was interested. 136 00:14:41,060 --> 00:14:44,460 He was not particularly interested in having students in his practise. 137 00:14:44,460 --> 00:14:50,700 I seem to remember he found, uh, that he, uh, you know, he was very protective of his patients. 138 00:14:50,700 --> 00:14:59,840 I probably was less afraid of my patients. Uh, and I think another factor that influenced me was that I started to have. 139 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:08,690 Started to become a college doctor in Oxford. And I have, you know, most known medical students in my practise are used to that. 140 00:15:08,690 --> 00:15:15,110 So when did you begin that and how many colleges? I think it began that in very early on. 141 00:15:15,110 --> 00:15:24,680 And at that, again, there's another freakish thing, because it happened at North Flori became the province of Queens, I think it was in 1961. 142 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,940 And I was really very, very much a young doctor myself. 143 00:15:28,940 --> 00:15:34,460 Then, uh, I, uh, Flori was a patient of unknowledgeable downtown, 144 00:15:34,460 --> 00:15:39,220 which is have a lot of interesting, significant people like C.S. Lewis and all these. 145 00:15:39,220 --> 00:15:43,400 And that was one of the great things about, you know, practise in those days. 146 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:50,060 Anyway, I found myself drifting off to Florida because I was just going off on holiday for a month and I found myself 147 00:15:50,060 --> 00:15:55,400 looking after four eight when he was really quite ill because he had a lot of trouble with coronary heart disease, 148 00:15:55,400 --> 00:16:01,340 really at a relatively young age. I think he was in his late 50s and 60s. 149 00:16:01,340 --> 00:16:12,860 And so I got along with him quite well. And when when, uh, he became provost of Queens, which I think was in about 1961, 150 00:16:12,860 --> 00:16:21,830 he discovered that Queens had a very old GGP as his college doctor, who was at least in his 70s and might even have been in his 80s. 151 00:16:21,830 --> 00:16:29,780 And Floyd decided this was outrageous. And he really after so I said to the college, I got to be a good GP. 152 00:16:29,780 --> 00:16:40,050 I think he'd make an excellent college doctor. Of course, you can imagine what a lot of Queens said about that. 153 00:16:40,050 --> 00:16:43,610 Uh, but Florey was a very determined man. 154 00:16:43,610 --> 00:16:51,590 Yeah. Quite clear to me. Determine that. Uh, so I was opposed by most many of the older fellows of Queens. 155 00:16:51,590 --> 00:16:53,540 I was opposed, I might say, 156 00:16:53,540 --> 00:17:01,070 by the other doctors who are currently doctors who thought I was much too young and inexperienced to become a college doctor. 157 00:17:01,070 --> 00:17:06,860 And there was a major confrontation which even involved the British Medical Association because the 158 00:17:06,860 --> 00:17:12,380 doctors association appealed to the British Medical Association that this was really outrageous, 159 00:17:12,380 --> 00:17:17,450 that Florey should be pushing his head across the board. 160 00:17:17,450 --> 00:17:22,190 I didn't want to know about it. So I'm forty one. 161 00:17:22,190 --> 00:17:27,540 Yeah, that pen is the only doctor at Queen's in. 162 00:17:27,540 --> 00:17:34,040 I was very young. I mean, I wasn't exactly I was like, yeah, most of my doctors were in their forties so it was an interesting time. 163 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:43,730 And when did you get another college? Oh, I gradually accumulated about half a dozen colleges over the next 15 years, I suppose. 164 00:17:43,730 --> 00:17:53,090 And in the 60s I because I felt college student health care was badly managed in Oxford because most times change to 165 00:17:53,090 --> 00:18:00,030 say most college doctors were more interested in having Tony watching colleges than they were looking after students. 166 00:18:00,030 --> 00:18:08,330 I campaigned along with a gang of students who are pressing the university to establish university health services. 167 00:18:08,330 --> 00:18:18,210 And I had quite a bit of encouragement from, uh, from various people, including Chacko Ben-Gurion Studio of the University Medical Officer. 168 00:18:18,210 --> 00:18:23,900 Yeah. And I travelled around to other medical schools, all the other universities, 169 00:18:23,900 --> 00:18:28,140 and discovered university health care systems, which I thought were very good. 170 00:18:28,140 --> 00:18:37,000 And I thought Oxford could benefit greatly from having a bit more professionalism and trust me, and supported that. 171 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:46,740 I wrote some sort of report which was dismissed by most people because it came I'd been to Manchester. 172 00:18:46,740 --> 00:18:51,960 Some places like this may well snooty about about that go to Cambridge, 173 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:57,480 I knew very well that Cambridge and Banjul Hansen said you what you need to do is to go 174 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:01,810 to somewhere like Harvard and Yale and look at their university health care system, 175 00:19:01,810 --> 00:19:07,290 which I know are very good because you've been there and I got a scholarship from the World Health 176 00:19:07,290 --> 00:19:12,690 Organisation to go and spend three months at Harvard and Yale looking at the university health systems. 177 00:19:12,690 --> 00:19:20,220 And I came back roads report, which went to the same university committee. 178 00:19:20,220 --> 00:19:29,520 And Alan Bullock, was that the first time? And he got very enthusiastic about it, asked me to go and see him and tell him about it, 179 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:35,550 which I did, and said, right, we must have something like this in this university. 180 00:19:35,550 --> 00:19:44,610 And he set up a committee, the Greater Good, which collected evidence over several years and came forward the recommendation 181 00:19:44,610 --> 00:19:50,580 that there should be some sort of university health care system in Oxford. 182 00:19:50,580 --> 00:19:58,550 Of course, it didn't didn't happen because all the colleges resisted it and said health care's got nothing to do with university. 183 00:19:58,550 --> 00:20:03,930 It's college, but we'll decide what we're going to do about it, which was, I think, typical. 184 00:20:03,930 --> 00:20:12,120 Yes. I'm sorry. I wasn't too surprised, but there was one area where they were couldn't be quite so dismissive. 185 00:20:12,120 --> 00:20:17,790 And that was in mental health. They were worried because of student suicides and so on. 186 00:20:17,790 --> 00:20:23,310 So I'm glad to say there was one small outcome of all of that, which I was proud of, 187 00:20:23,310 --> 00:20:29,310 which was that the university established a counselling service and it still exists. 188 00:20:29,310 --> 00:20:35,490 So that's now 50 years ago. It still is a university counselling service paid for by the university. 189 00:20:35,490 --> 00:20:39,180 It's in the middle of the street. 190 00:20:39,180 --> 00:20:43,200 And so, you know, it wasn't entirely fruitless. 191 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:51,830 And did you go into the colleges and health surgeries or did they come down because we were vague, centrally located in Oxford. 192 00:20:51,830 --> 00:20:59,820 I didn't ever do surgery in colleges, but we had er later on we had nurses in colleges who had to do surgeries and so on college nurses, 193 00:20:59,820 --> 00:21:03,330 and that was a very good, very good move to have college nurses. 194 00:21:03,330 --> 00:21:07,890 Did you introduce them. I will, I will certainly encourage it and encourage it. 195 00:21:07,890 --> 00:21:19,440 I think you were getting around to it and colleges were beginning to be feeling to be more responsible for, you know, health care. 196 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:28,040 And when did you persuade the medical school to have an organised attachment to general practise for the medical students? 197 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:33,690 Yeah, yeah. I know that was that really wasn't my initiative. That was Richard Doll who was responsible. 198 00:21:33,690 --> 00:21:43,950 But when he became Regius, it was clear that when Richardo became religious and I met met him together with some others, 199 00:21:43,950 --> 00:21:49,230 there were two things that Richardo was determined to do and his time, a religious one, 200 00:21:49,230 --> 00:21:55,590 was to establish a chair, public health and, um, which didn't exist at that time. 201 00:21:55,590 --> 00:22:01,340 There was someone called Alice Stewart. Yes. Who wasn't. 202 00:22:01,340 --> 00:22:09,680 She lives in Canberra and she was doing some interesting work, but she did and she says she knows maybe she'll have to show the reader and her 203 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:16,910 and probably thought she'd been the successor to a man whose name I've forgotten, 204 00:22:16,910 --> 00:22:24,650 who moved from Cambridge in the late 1940s from being a professor of medicine in Cambridge to, 205 00:22:24,650 --> 00:22:31,610 um, um, uh, to become a Nuffield professor of public health. 206 00:22:31,610 --> 00:22:35,890 I think it was in Oxford. Is he right? Right. Well, that's right. 207 00:22:35,890 --> 00:22:40,470 Right. Exactly. And and that was an experiment, so to speak. 208 00:22:40,470 --> 00:22:52,640 He he he, I think was in the first five years and then money went out on the University of Medical School, decided they weren't going to renew it. 209 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:57,110 And so Richard was determined to get that back, in fact, in effect. 210 00:22:57,110 --> 00:23:08,720 And he did establish public health quite soon after he was, uh, became Regis and Martin Vesey, who'd worked with WWC. 211 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,740 H.M.S. I remember that from those days became a professor. 212 00:23:12,740 --> 00:23:18,470 The other thing you determined to do is to try and get something done about public, about general practise, 213 00:23:18,470 --> 00:23:26,840 because there was pressure from the General Medical Council and on many medical schools have got some general practise appointment. 214 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,590 Uh, and he was determined that this would happen in Oxford. 215 00:23:30,590 --> 00:23:39,500 And, uh, Richardo got one or two of us, um, me and Evan Louden, uh, 216 00:23:39,500 --> 00:23:46,250 from one to Wantage, uh, together and said, can't you help me put developing the case. 217 00:23:46,250 --> 00:23:52,250 And was Andrew there then you. No new has been the back. I didn't get involved in that, but he was very supportive of it. 218 00:23:52,250 --> 00:24:00,890 I'm trying to think of who was with Politico. And the other thing was that John has Leatherjacket has been and John had been responsible for, 219 00:24:00,890 --> 00:24:06,170 uh, development of prescribe or general practise, education of young GP's. 220 00:24:06,170 --> 00:24:12,770 And I had been involved in that as well. So I knew him very well and Richardo knew that I was involved in that as well. 221 00:24:12,770 --> 00:24:16,960 So he has those in practise somewhere. He was in telecom. Yes. 222 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:25,150 I knew right away it was out with, by the way. So he wasn't himself interested in this, but I was strongly supportive of his uncle. 223 00:24:25,150 --> 00:24:36,740 David Martin was strongly supportive of having had actually been on the Clinical Medicine Board as a GP because he was a very able I was a highly, 224 00:24:36,740 --> 00:24:43,190 highly respected. And so and so we put together some sort of case to go to the General Medicine Board 225 00:24:43,190 --> 00:24:51,380 in the 1970s to argue the case for some of the general practise post of some sort. 226 00:24:51,380 --> 00:24:59,870 And I was given the terrible, terrifying task of presenting this case to a meeting of the medicine board. 227 00:24:59,870 --> 00:25:04,970 Uh, well, I have to say, it was done in the chair. 228 00:25:04,970 --> 00:25:10,250 Yes, he was in the chair, but it took a back seat, so to speak. 229 00:25:10,250 --> 00:25:15,920 Uh, and, uh oh, it was a painful experience. 230 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:22,130 And I, uh, and I remember someone, I think a better remain nameless. 231 00:25:22,130 --> 00:25:28,550 Uh, when I went that way, I stood up to make my speech, said the chap was said, 232 00:25:28,550 --> 00:25:34,480 come on, Godfrey, we all know you're a good GP, but don't try to persuade us. 233 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:56,710 That's anything academic about general practise. Anyway, so there was caution about that, about that whole thing, 234 00:25:56,710 --> 00:26:02,800 but it nevertheless was decided apparently at the commission board that there should be 235 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:09,250 some general practise posts and they would probably have a readership at some point, 236 00:26:09,250 --> 00:26:11,620 but they couldn't find the money. 237 00:26:11,620 --> 00:26:20,620 Money was very tight in medicine at that time, so they couldn't justify spending money on a part time readership in general practise. 238 00:26:20,620 --> 00:26:23,980 So they would put it on ice for five years. 239 00:26:23,980 --> 00:26:30,770 And Rosemary Ruu, who of course, was a huge supporter of all sorts of things, said to have said that the medicine. 240 00:26:30,770 --> 00:26:40,530 But look, I think this is so important that I'm willing to fund this post for five years so we can get it underway and get it started. 241 00:26:40,530 --> 00:26:44,500 Uh, and and that was agreed. 242 00:26:44,500 --> 00:26:52,150 And so the powers that be kept together and eventually got around and retired, 243 00:26:52,150 --> 00:26:59,020 the half time post readership and general practise, and I was sort of supportive of that. 244 00:26:59,020 --> 00:27:07,750 And I said, well, you know, if this guy needs to have a better job in October, she needs to happen to anybody who's teaching general practise. 245 00:27:07,750 --> 00:27:16,870 It has to be a GP of some sort. And then, you know, they can come into our practise and practise to agree to that. 246 00:27:16,870 --> 00:27:25,870 So the post was advertised and I was aware that a lot of people had it for around the place and expressed interest. 247 00:27:25,870 --> 00:27:32,080 They didn't think it was very satisfactory to try and get somebody to come outside and start doing this. 248 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:41,470 So, uh, and but things went and I was told that I had a 15 or 16 people applying for the post. 249 00:27:41,470 --> 00:27:53,070 And and about the day before the closure, I had a phone call from Richard Doll saying, Godfrey, where's your application for this job? 250 00:27:53,070 --> 00:27:58,390 I said, look, Richard, I don't want to do this job. I've been a GP in this practise for nearly 20 years now. 251 00:27:58,390 --> 00:28:03,550 I've just become a senior partner, far too busy to do something else. 252 00:28:03,550 --> 00:28:11,890 And he said, we want to see your application because you may not feel you are academically qualified for the post, 253 00:28:11,890 --> 00:28:19,240 but we think the most important thing about this post is that it should have the support of local GP's. 254 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:31,390 And we know you have credibility to say, oh, gosh, I really you know, I did apply for the post, but assuming they wouldn't get it, thank God would. 255 00:28:31,390 --> 00:28:40,600 Of course, I was appointed and I remember John Ledingham was that was I think chaired the, uh, 256 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:52,240 I certainly remember the interview and all all the talk was not about my qualities as an academic or my practise at school or anything like that. 257 00:28:52,240 --> 00:29:00,050 It was all about support from a local GP. So I thought, well, on that basis, I better take it. 258 00:29:00,050 --> 00:29:09,640 You know, my wife was very opposed to me doing it because she felt I was really busy enough and didn't want me to take on a whole new challenge. 259 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,750 And it was a big challenge. I had to, um, we had to have changes in practise. 260 00:29:13,750 --> 00:29:20,110 Yes. I was thinking how part time was it when it was it was half time to start with. 261 00:29:20,110 --> 00:29:26,200 Uh, but of course it you know, half and I am that it's I work very hard now. 262 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:35,710 We'll come back to the what you did in the Post. But The Post is one thing and clinical students being sent to practise is routine. 263 00:29:35,710 --> 00:29:46,930 When did that happen? Well, that's that that's strangely enough, I started just before, um, uh, I started this job, the job, because, um, 264 00:29:46,930 --> 00:29:54,670 before I even applied for a job, John, that rang me up one day and said, look, we've discovered the clinical students. 265 00:29:54,670 --> 00:29:59,140 We've got to do an extra two weeks, of course, to qualify to get a full time. 266 00:29:59,140 --> 00:30:06,350 They have to do 44 weeks or something. And then the GMC, GMC, I think what, uh, what am I going to do with them? 267 00:30:06,350 --> 00:30:10,990 So I said, John, I'm sure we can find GP's around the country. 268 00:30:10,990 --> 00:30:17,320 Yeah. We're going to have a student for a couple of weeks. And so, John, letting them set, what a good idea. 269 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:22,960 I do it. What's it going to cost us? I said, well, I don't think it can cost you very much because nobody will have to pay for doing this. 270 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:28,150 I think we'll find what it was. Seventy GP's. We needed seventy practises. 271 00:30:28,150 --> 00:30:34,190 So I worked hard to recruit a lot of practises around and Oxfordshire. 272 00:30:34,190 --> 00:30:41,050 All of them were delighted to have a student staying with them. So the doctors actually put the students up on the side. 273 00:30:41,050 --> 00:30:48,670 You know, the main is that was the start of it. And John said, well, that'll do for this year, but by next year we would have thought about something. 274 00:30:48,670 --> 00:30:53,570 But it was the students. Seth Jones is director of clinical studies. 275 00:30:53,570 --> 00:31:02,160 He was yeah, that was enormously helpful that he was so supportive and that was helpful that we'd known each other for the kinds of things. 276 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:09,480 And his father had been a gentleman. And so he was an enormous influence, I think, on the medical school, 277 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:15,000 on other people who are a bit more sceptical that when you got in the leadership post. 278 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:20,940 Yes. Did you really just work on this sort of thing or were you doing a research project? 279 00:31:20,940 --> 00:31:24,870 Well, first of all, I have to work very much on it, on the teaching thing. 280 00:31:24,870 --> 00:31:30,120 But then it became quite clear after a year or two that we had to have some sort of research 281 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:37,170 credibility and that was enormously enhanced by the job being within that multiverses department. 282 00:31:37,170 --> 00:31:41,280 We have an epidemiology department, a strong research thing. 283 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:45,840 So it was within that department I was within it was appointed within that department. 284 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,780 And that really helped us to to get things going. 285 00:31:49,780 --> 00:31:53,400 I mean, you know, I didn't have much in the way of research interests there. 286 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:58,650 But one thing I had been interested in for quite a long time was tobacco. 287 00:31:58,650 --> 00:32:07,500 And, you know, I just just seen as a GP, you know, the people I've seen 15, 20 years before smoking chimneys. 288 00:32:07,500 --> 00:32:11,100 And now they're coming along with their chest infections and all the rest of it. 289 00:32:11,100 --> 00:32:19,080 So I thought, look, we've got to focus on this. So I really started doing work with the first serious research we did was a 290 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:25,080 randomised controlled trial of GP advice in and helping patients to stop smoking. 291 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:34,530 And this was done by a different student, an Australian film student, sadly now dead, killed Conrad Yamanashi, who became a very good epidemiologist. 292 00:32:34,530 --> 00:32:39,900 We did we did a very nice trial showing a randomised trial control group showing the 293 00:32:39,900 --> 00:32:44,350 effect of minimal advice from GP's and consultations on helping people to stop smoking. 294 00:32:44,350 --> 00:32:49,680 We found that we did have a significant small effect on the number of people who stopped smoking. 295 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:54,060 So you were already persuaded of those work, I mean. Oh, absolutely. 296 00:32:54,060 --> 00:33:00,600 Yeah, it is terrible that we take more don't work with the College of Physicians was producing reports on it. 297 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,550 Now what to doing any work on seeing what was something we could do. 298 00:33:04,550 --> 00:33:10,140 Yeah. So that's why I started on that. I got eventually into the nicotine replacement trial thing. 299 00:33:10,140 --> 00:33:18,000 So we did some of that as well. So that was very much our focus and I was enormously helped there with all the bottom. 300 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:27,820 Who happened to meet at the meeting one day at me talking about this and he said coffee or something do to help you pick your embryo department. 301 00:33:27,820 --> 00:33:34,080 Thought that was nice. And so I said, yeah, we need more money so we can employ somebody to do research. 302 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:40,050 And he did that. And so we we responded by funded by ISAF. 303 00:33:40,050 --> 00:33:48,930 The research group was for several years. So when I was getting the money, really, you're persuading your boss? 304 00:33:48,930 --> 00:33:55,870 Yeah. Yeah. And he was just as far as I could see, he just said, you know, I want to do this. 305 00:33:55,870 --> 00:33:58,310 I seem to have a great power and influence. 306 00:33:58,310 --> 00:34:08,100 And it struck me that he was the sort of chap that if you have him on your side, could get an enormous benefit if you if he didn't like you very much. 307 00:34:08,100 --> 00:34:11,370 And I actually have an experience of that. 308 00:34:11,370 --> 00:34:20,610 When I retired, he took the money away from the department because he didn't like the person who took over. 309 00:34:20,610 --> 00:34:26,080 Well, now to go back to our two personalities, Ben, it was a remarkable man. 310 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:36,540 What are your memories of Ben? Well, actually, I you know, he was I liked him and got on with him quite well. 311 00:34:36,540 --> 00:34:46,320 But not everybody did, as you well know. And and it was helped by the fact that he was Danish and my wife Norwegian. 312 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:52,320 So we had a Nordic thing that's quite helpful over the years. 313 00:34:52,320 --> 00:35:00,180 But he was certainly very encouraging to me. And I never really had any serious conflicts with Ben, but it could be different now. 314 00:35:00,180 --> 00:35:04,830 He was running the health service for the nurses and the medical students, is that right? 315 00:35:04,830 --> 00:35:16,320 If you weren't doing that and had the university got a medical service, that now you're never going to a medical service. 316 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,280 It just I think it improved the quality doctor system. 317 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:27,090 And anyway, it just became something the university couldn't afford to fund it in due course, I think. 318 00:35:27,090 --> 00:35:35,190 But in the sixties, particularly sixties and seventies, you know, there's no doubt about it. 319 00:35:35,190 --> 00:35:45,030 But students in the university had a second class health service, but GP's were interested in their patients over a period of time, 320 00:35:45,030 --> 00:35:49,730 students with people who came and went and they didn't get very much time. 321 00:35:49,730 --> 00:36:00,490 And they, you know, they. Really did get from some of the GPS, you don't have any problems, I we need to pay more money than though had his moments. 322 00:36:00,490 --> 00:36:05,150 That is Stewart. I think something Doe had his moments with that. 323 00:36:05,150 --> 00:36:10,730 Is it because they were daggers drawn? They were very different personalities. 324 00:36:10,730 --> 00:36:16,040 Yes. But when it was that, though, didn't believe her work on retaliation. 325 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:20,650 I was fine. I didn't know. That's right. And was he right? I don't know. 326 00:36:20,650 --> 00:36:27,140 I don't know. I don't know. I didn't know enough about her to be able to make any judgement about that. 327 00:36:27,140 --> 00:36:33,720 I think she thought she was. Did you meet ever meet her? Oh, yes. Yes. Uh, so she wasn't everybody's. 328 00:36:33,720 --> 00:36:37,430 And, uh, uh, you know, 329 00:36:37,430 --> 00:36:48,500 I think those I think that was that that appointment of a professor of public health was difficult for her to have somebody else taking on that job. 330 00:36:48,500 --> 00:36:54,110 Difficult. And she moved up to Birmingham. Yes. Now, then you became a reader. 331 00:36:54,110 --> 00:36:57,590 I mean, sort of the professor. Well, I only very only at the very end. 332 00:36:57,590 --> 00:37:05,990 At the very end, I was given that it was decided in the in the late 80s, I suppose, early 90s, 333 00:37:05,990 --> 00:37:13,010 that they really had to publish and establish a proper Department of General practise with the chair and all the rest. 334 00:37:13,010 --> 00:37:21,380 And and I may say, uh, David Weatherall was strongly supportive of that, uh, then, 335 00:37:21,380 --> 00:37:27,910 uh, but the public was, as always, where to find the money for for this, uh. 336 00:37:27,910 --> 00:37:36,470 And, uh, so I was given an ad hominem, I know, for the last year or two, which was very nice. 337 00:37:36,470 --> 00:37:42,470 And the status of general practise in the medical school seemed to be very high at the moment. 338 00:37:42,470 --> 00:37:48,890 And I'm very glad to see that. For example, the director of clinical studies for over 15 years has been a team, 339 00:37:48,890 --> 00:37:59,760 Lancaster in the present Department of General Practise, or Primary Health Care Sciences, as it's now called, is blubbing. 340 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:39,060 Uh, it's got two hundred and fifty people employed in it, a large research programme, accommodation, the new active, uh. 341 00:38:39,060 --> 00:38:43,320 Did you get into work on contraceptives because that was very much in the book? 342 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:49,590 Not not really to very much smart investors thing, but and so I was very aware of it. 343 00:38:49,590 --> 00:38:51,720 And I must say, we work well together. 344 00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:59,220 And of course, the epidemiological skills in that department are actually invaluable to us in setting up research programmes. 345 00:38:59,220 --> 00:39:04,050 And how much did you see of Dole in that department that he used to come in? 346 00:39:04,050 --> 00:39:08,900 Yes, he was what he was what he was working next door and Richard Peters was. 347 00:39:08,900 --> 00:39:13,070 But you could miss them. Tobacco smoking. 348 00:39:13,070 --> 00:39:16,520 Oh, yes. Yes, mostly on tobacco. Yes. But he went on doing that. 349 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:21,720 Yes. So, Jim, San Antonio did have the both of them. 350 00:39:21,720 --> 00:39:28,020 And and Jim, I actually spoke to on the phone only a few days ago because we had telephone conversation. 351 00:39:28,020 --> 00:39:33,060 He he published something in the BMJ, I think, which is about sugar and actually. 352 00:39:33,060 --> 00:39:36,720 Yes, yes. Right now, I know he did that last year. 353 00:39:36,720 --> 00:39:42,480 And I like Jim. Yes. Very much. And I was very sad when he he moved. 354 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:54,930 Why did he move? Well, you tell me. Uh, I felt that Jim somehow never been properly acknowledged, you know, but, uh, I thought he was a clever man. 355 00:39:54,930 --> 00:40:00,720 He did very interesting work. And sadly, he never gave me full credit for that. 356 00:40:00,720 --> 00:40:07,470 He seemed to me more, uh, more acknowledged than the rest of the world that that's not unique to him. 357 00:40:07,470 --> 00:40:15,960 And it's certainly been the case since. And that, you know, he you know, it was so, uh, he was a very good friend to me. 358 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,880 And he helped me a lot. I mean, I might say and and Andrew, of course, is his successor. 359 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,480 And we have a lot to do with each other. 360 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:31,200 In fact, I think and we spend always regard themselves as part of the Department of General practise, the general practise of the department. 361 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:40,710 And then on the political side, we have of course, we have common ground because he did, um, diabetes studies in North Oxford. 362 00:40:40,710 --> 00:40:44,790 Yes, indeed. Were you involved? Yes, we were involved with that. 363 00:40:44,790 --> 00:40:51,030 And and, um, uh, you know, we did we did books together. 364 00:40:51,030 --> 00:40:57,380 Uh, right. And you and I and, um, and, uh, so that was that was very nice. 365 00:40:57,380 --> 00:41:01,710 So how many books have you read, the medical one? 366 00:41:01,710 --> 00:41:10,310 Well, one of the other things that happened when I got the readership was I was approached by Pupi, 367 00:41:10,310 --> 00:41:16,770 um, violence and Addison Langton at A.P. who said we got the Oxford textbook. 368 00:41:16,770 --> 00:41:23,520 It's not because the Oxford textbook said to we're not looking for the textbook of general practise. 369 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:29,310 So I said to Alison Anderson, you must be joking. You're a long way from that. 370 00:41:29,310 --> 00:41:35,640 Uh, but if you really want us to produce something on general practise aspects of general practise, 371 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:42,820 um, I'm happy to edit help to edit a series of books on general practise. 372 00:41:42,820 --> 00:41:45,460 And I'm sure I can find people to write books. 373 00:41:45,460 --> 00:41:56,250 And so so we did actually start in about nineteen eighty eighty one, producing something we should say up to general practise theory. 374 00:41:56,250 --> 00:42:02,220 And that that went on for about twenty years. I think we published over forty books for general practise. 375 00:42:02,220 --> 00:42:04,680 I got some of them on a shelf somewhere, 376 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:11,970 uh on various aspects of general practise which were quite popular in general practise to be done by a lot of books, 377 00:42:11,970 --> 00:42:16,560 but they did need to buy some for the younger boys having GP training. 378 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:23,220 And so we we did that a lot of GPS contributed to. 379 00:42:23,220 --> 00:42:25,200 Did you write any one yourself? 380 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:32,910 Yes, I was particularly interested in aspects of preventive medicine, so I did two or three on that, either on my own or with me or Grey. 381 00:42:32,910 --> 00:42:40,590 I remember before I did a very early book with me, a great, great, great enthusiast, of course. 382 00:42:40,590 --> 00:42:46,140 And I would like to know what was the one of them driven? Well, it was on preventive medicine in general practise. 383 00:42:46,140 --> 00:42:53,300 I think we did a good job. So how many successes have you had people in that? 384 00:42:53,300 --> 00:43:03,630 Yeah, OK, well I've tried, I think it was in ninety six and I retired and the opposite did its usual thing. 385 00:43:03,630 --> 00:43:09,130 It didn't appoint someone for a year. Uh that's quite true. 386 00:43:09,130 --> 00:43:14,280 But that's not quite true because there was a chuckle. Martin Lawrence, do you remember what he said. 387 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:38,500 You know. Yeah. He's a GP is uh clever chap who had been a lecturer in my department who ran the department for a year after my retirement. 388 00:43:38,500 --> 00:43:49,990 And so did his usual thing of not being able to find anybody who was good enough for the post and eventually David Mamet was given the job, 389 00:43:49,990 --> 00:44:00,140 he'd worked with me in the in the 80s and the department and he'd been the deputy director of my research group. 390 00:44:00,140 --> 00:44:07,770 He was basically an epidemiologist. I mean, epidemiology training. Uh, and he ran the department for about ten years. 391 00:44:07,770 --> 00:44:15,790 Uh, and then he retired and he retired when he was 60, I think only three or four years ago. 392 00:44:15,790 --> 00:44:22,540 Now, having said it was a Panopto flourish when he said he didn't want to carry on doing it. 393 00:44:22,540 --> 00:44:30,160 And the latest chap is a tackle, Richard Hump's, who's now the professor of primary health care sciences, 394 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:37,950 because they change the title, I don't like to say, but everything has to be science these days. 395 00:44:37,950 --> 00:44:44,090 And he came from Birmingham, where he'd been the professor of general practise for about 20 years. 396 00:44:44,090 --> 00:44:51,970 I actually was involved in this appointment way back in the 80s, 90s, and he's very good, very dynamic. 397 00:44:51,970 --> 00:44:57,220 Uh, um, uh, uh, a powerful guy. 398 00:44:57,220 --> 00:45:02,780 And he seems to be producing dramatic changes in this in this department. 399 00:45:02,780 --> 00:45:08,270 Got vast numbers of people, lots of money. And as I say, the University of Texas, 400 00:45:08,270 --> 00:45:13,870 I saw something that vice chancellor had written the other day about his department saying 401 00:45:13,870 --> 00:45:21,630 this was now going to be the centre of the whole of the management had been to Canada. 402 00:45:21,630 --> 00:45:30,790 As I write to where did men go between originally McCain and we, he moved off to South Hampton. 403 00:45:30,790 --> 00:45:38,650 He became a professor of primary health care epidemiology that David and I have a certain amount of conflict. 404 00:45:38,650 --> 00:45:44,470 When we were, uh, when we were in the department together and eventually resolved that by moving off. 405 00:45:44,470 --> 00:45:49,540 But they came back and I think you did a very good job for 10 years. 406 00:45:49,540 --> 00:45:57,580 And I must say, I'm delighted the department is such a powerful place as a GP in Oxford. 407 00:45:57,580 --> 00:46:00,790 And with your memories of you, I carried on all this time. 408 00:46:00,790 --> 00:46:08,560 I miss being a GP practise and I really struggled to do that as I got more and more busy, but I enjoyed it. 409 00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:13,060 Yeah, I stopped delivering babies in the middle of the night and things like that. 410 00:46:13,060 --> 00:46:20,530 But if I look back at my time, the part of my time that I enjoyed most with being a GP, 411 00:46:20,530 --> 00:46:26,890 I think being a GP in the sixties and seventies was a very satisfying life. 412 00:46:26,890 --> 00:46:29,530 You felt you were doing something worthwhile. 413 00:46:29,530 --> 00:46:37,030 You were and you were very involved with family as the relationships were very close, lots of home visits and things like that. 414 00:46:37,030 --> 00:46:48,940 And I must say, I'm sad to see what general practises become, which is a, you know, nine to five job, uh, you know, out of hours work. 415 00:46:48,940 --> 00:46:54,850 And I understand it is. Yes, but it you know, I hear so I'm sure we all do. 416 00:46:54,850 --> 00:46:56,500 People say, well. 417 00:46:56,500 --> 00:47:08,830 Takes them 10 days to get an appointment and you have to want it, but didn't have it, and I was doing, um, and as a GP, you know, there you are. 418 00:47:08,830 --> 00:47:15,090 And you remember that you said what did you think of the outfit? Hospitals. 419 00:47:15,090 --> 00:47:20,020 I don't really know the hospitals that they exist now. 420 00:47:20,020 --> 00:47:26,770 I don't know in those days. And I loved it in the early days because it was the relationships are so close. 421 00:47:26,770 --> 00:47:33,610 Um, uh, you know, all the old GP knew all the hospital consultants. 422 00:47:33,610 --> 00:47:47,900 And I think most of the consultants, most of the GP is, uh, um, and, uh, uh, we used to go in and see our patients in the hospital, 423 00:47:47,900 --> 00:47:55,000 commonly in the life of somehow, I suppose, less busy, you know, and something less paperwork to do. 424 00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,310 Uh, um, you know, 425 00:47:57,310 --> 00:48:06,790 if you wanted to refer somebody to a if you wrote a letter at the end of the consultation surgery and sent it off to the doctor, you knew. 426 00:48:06,790 --> 00:48:11,960 And, you know, the communication was simpler and other things are always changing. 427 00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:18,550 Did you think Oxford was as good as you said, are very fond of Oxford? 428 00:48:18,550 --> 00:48:26,950 In the end when I first arrived, that I felt almost alienated as a student, but I got very fond of Oxford, of course. 429 00:48:26,950 --> 00:48:36,910 Uh, and it's interesting that I actually I felt alienated when I first came here, when I had the opportunity to come back to Oxford as a GP. 430 00:48:36,910 --> 00:48:44,830 Uh, you know, I felt somehow at home. Yes. Um, and the way I think people do come back to Oxford, 431 00:48:44,830 --> 00:48:53,260 I remember being disappointed when I first came back after having been away for five years, but not bumping into everybody in High Street. 432 00:48:53,260 --> 00:49:01,120 I knew them all. I didn't know any more. But no, I think Oxford was and I think the size of the place was enormously helpful. 433 00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:09,460 London, I would never forget. And that's what happened last year that I should have. 434 00:49:09,460 --> 00:49:14,740 I think we covered that quite well. Tell me about perhaps national committees. 435 00:49:14,740 --> 00:49:20,830 Were you going? Oh, yes. I got I got involved in a lot of a lot of that, um, 436 00:49:20,830 --> 00:49:30,370 because it was extremely difficult to get GP's to get on national committees because they practise it wouldn't release them to do that and say, 437 00:49:30,370 --> 00:49:33,610 well, it was going to see the patients one year of doing this. 438 00:49:33,610 --> 00:49:47,200 So, uh, one of the advantages of being having some academic time is if I wanted to, I could go and spend some of that time on and on committees. 439 00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:57,040 And I was for example, I was time out of the longest serving member of the British Heart Foundation Council, 440 00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:04,060 which I joined in about that in nineteen eighties. I finally got off, uh, about twenty years later. 441 00:50:04,060 --> 00:50:09,790 And that was not because they wanted me particularly, but they found it impossible to find anybody to replace me. 442 00:50:09,790 --> 00:50:17,140 No GP was willing to spend what I was four or five days a year at the British Heart Foundation sitting on that committee, 443 00:50:17,140 --> 00:50:23,830 but we didn't have the time to do that. Uh uh. So I became part of the stroke association. 444 00:50:23,830 --> 00:50:27,290 The same same thing happened. So I collected a lot of that sort of thing. 445 00:50:27,290 --> 00:50:31,060 MRC oh, not now. Never on the ANC, you know, liberal, Nirmal. 446 00:50:31,060 --> 00:50:36,940 So, you know, I think there is now almost certainly some GP and Royal College of Practitioners. 447 00:50:36,940 --> 00:50:40,210 Oh, yes, I was I was involved with them. Really quite right from. 448 00:50:40,210 --> 00:50:44,710 Yeah. Tell me about the funding of that. Well, not quite at the beginning. 449 00:50:44,710 --> 00:50:54,280 I mean, I was I it was founded in the early 1950s by an enthusiastic group of, uh, London doctors. 450 00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:59,170 What I knew best was John Horder. Yeah. You jumped on board as well. 451 00:50:59,170 --> 00:51:04,810 So they were big. And it was it undoubtedly was a good organisation. 452 00:51:04,810 --> 00:51:05,440 And of course, 453 00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:14,860 it eventually got heavily involved in the training of young doctors and developed training programmes and exams and all that sort of thing. 454 00:51:14,860 --> 00:51:24,620 So I had a lot of involvement in that in the nineteen seventies and eighties particularly. 455 00:51:24,620 --> 00:51:32,680 Uh, and now it's got the biggest membership of any Royal College, I understand, and things like that. 456 00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:39,400 And this makes a lot of money and uh and and I and some, some good. 457 00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:43,840 But I think it's probably become a bit detached from reality. 458 00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:46,210 Afraid so. 459 00:51:46,210 --> 00:51:54,550 I'm thinking of Martin Lawrence because I can remember, you know, bright young medical students, he and Theo Schofield getting into general practise. 460 00:51:54,550 --> 00:52:00,840 Everybody is. Was that right, is that right? Yes, because you knew them, of course, when they are four days. 461 00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:03,880 Yes, they were young students. Yes, yes. 462 00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:12,180 Well, I'm glad to say that although the in the early days, I had very great difficulty in getting help in the building up with the department. 463 00:52:12,180 --> 00:52:20,280 And I did get some money from I think it was something called the Health Education Council initially to fund two 464 00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:28,770 GP's two days a week to come into the department of Martin Luther King telescope to be persuaded to do that. 465 00:52:28,770 --> 00:52:40,740 So I was enormously large. In that regard, I couldn't have done what I did in the 80s if I hadn't had good GP's willing to give up time. 466 00:52:40,740 --> 00:52:46,680 But I mean, obviously they were influenced by you and others. Oh, yes, very much influenced by them. 467 00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:52,000 And I and I only heard about Sam the other day. 468 00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:58,560 I was asking at the psychiatrist to talk to us about suicide. 469 00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:09,080 He thought he thought he was very friendly with the air. And he said there's mounting on the south coast and in retirement. 470 00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:15,380 I did that because he comes up to the extreme, I believe it is, yes, he's very good. 471 00:53:15,380 --> 00:53:20,750 Oh, yes. Oh, yes, he is a great guy. And of course, he is very good on the communications given side of things. 472 00:53:20,750 --> 00:53:25,540 I mean, he became an expert on teaching students communication skills. 473 00:53:25,540 --> 00:53:30,740 Right. And and Martin was Martin Lawrence was a very clever chap. 474 00:53:30,740 --> 00:53:37,960 I mean, he got a match at Cambridge and got a first in Mass at Cambridge, which is very clever. 475 00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:43,890 Right. And did he have a lot of influence all the time and medical students would have gone out of the GOP nomination? 476 00:53:43,890 --> 00:53:48,490 Yes, he did. And now in the present, are they still being put up? 477 00:53:48,490 --> 00:53:53,150 Yes, I don't know. I don't think so. Now they're trying because I don't think so. 478 00:53:53,150 --> 00:53:57,800 I think that probably has happened. But it was in the early days. 479 00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:02,390 It was it was very exciting for students to do that. They really did enjoy it. 480 00:54:02,390 --> 00:54:07,610 And how much lecturing to the clinical students from your department happened? 481 00:54:07,610 --> 00:54:12,290 Well, not a lot. But what we did most of our teaching was done in small groups. 482 00:54:12,290 --> 00:54:20,660 We did a lot of small group teaching. And that I think they liked and and and, uh, but they what they like most of all, 483 00:54:20,660 --> 00:54:26,100 of course, was being out in the practises and seeing another side of medicine. 484 00:54:26,100 --> 00:54:33,920 Yes. Yeah. I always remember there was a chap contemporary with me who went into general practise in Wales, 485 00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:40,280 South Wales, and after a few weeks or so I met him and he was miserable, you know, didn't make it. 486 00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:43,400 So erm a year later he's happy as Larry and he said, 487 00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:51,140 I've realised I'm looking after the flock in the sense I'm not looking after the individual sheep, I'm looking after the flock. 488 00:54:51,140 --> 00:55:00,050 And of course it's such an interesting contrast as there always is between the public health of a community and the health of the bedside interviews. 489 00:55:00,050 --> 00:55:03,860 Yes. Yes. I never have. I mean, I'm aware of that. 490 00:55:03,860 --> 00:55:08,240 But having been a very important thing for many GP's and I'm sure, for example, 491 00:55:08,240 --> 00:55:13,010 a practising in Wantage, which always had the reputation of being in a very good practise, 492 00:55:13,010 --> 00:55:22,340 which it was it Haggerty's in Oxford, it's not the same because that's where the population is built up. 493 00:55:22,340 --> 00:55:31,100 Do you feel it was right or I mean, was it sad that you didn't get a really big health centre on the green cottage side? 494 00:55:31,100 --> 00:55:38,960 You know, the back of it, 42nd Street. I am now patient in my old practise when I go there from time to time. 495 00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:47,090 As it happens, I was there one day earlier this week when we were talking about that very problem when I first came to talk, 496 00:55:47,090 --> 00:55:53,090 there's this sort of trainee in nineteen fifty nine. There was a medical officer of health called John Waring. 497 00:55:53,090 --> 00:55:57,200 Yes, indeed. Who was very enthusiastic about health centres. Very good man. 498 00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:03,890 Very good. And with George Pogba, who he knew quite well, and then the chief medical officer. 499 00:56:03,890 --> 00:56:09,050 Oh yes. They decided they start to develop health centres in Oxford. 500 00:56:09,050 --> 00:56:15,830 Godber, Gardiner and I was put because I was the only trainee GP I put on this committee 501 00:56:15,830 --> 00:56:22,370 by Jonquiere to be a young trainee GP and helped us but the health centre thing. 502 00:56:22,370 --> 00:56:26,840 And he said, I remember, John, where of course your practise in Oxford, 503 00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:33,620 after all Banbury Road House in Banbury Road is not my ideal place to practise medicine, but there is a very good doctor there. 504 00:56:33,620 --> 00:56:40,010 And so we have a health centre in the middle of which there still is no health at all. 505 00:56:40,010 --> 00:56:46,190 And there are a number of practises BlueRock, Beaumont, Street, three different general practise, 506 00:56:46,190 --> 00:56:53,450 Gordon Gamson and Cambridge Street, North Oxford has got no health centre at the centre Oxford. 507 00:56:53,450 --> 00:57:04,670 And there still isn't that amazing. We very nearly got one in the 1970s when one of those organisations of the health service was going seventy four. 508 00:57:04,670 --> 00:57:14,600 I think it was a reorganisation also. And the plan in the plan was to build a health centre in George Street in Oxford on 509 00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:19,820 the corner of two or three to New and Wall Street where the old grammar school is. 510 00:57:19,820 --> 00:57:25,190 Yes, there was a sort of old school and cycle shop and basically they were going to knock it 511 00:57:25,190 --> 00:57:30,620 down and put a health centre there and the health service didn't have money for it. 512 00:57:30,620 --> 00:57:36,320 That never happened. But they could have had this done round or not. 513 00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:43,820 I don't I really don't know. But, you know, the practise that I worked for 40 years, which I'm sure it's in a house in Birmingham, 514 00:57:43,820 --> 00:57:49,380 treat a nice old house, but it's on four or five floors without a lift. 515 00:57:49,380 --> 00:57:59,740 Now it's taking us to where did the number of people in the practise, doctors in the practise rise considerably? 516 00:57:59,740 --> 00:58:06,650 Yes, of course. Of course. I mean, for twenty years, for the first twenty years, it practise for Richard Sweet and Fowler. 517 00:58:06,650 --> 00:58:16,790 So I was a junior of. Three doctors and we had two lists, which was pretty stable of about 8000 patients, seven or eight thousand patients between us. 518 00:58:16,790 --> 00:58:25,190 Now, the practise, I understand, has about 14 or thousand, and I think there are now ten point ten. 519 00:58:25,190 --> 00:58:31,490 And the fact is, I'm glad to say half of them are ladies good. 520 00:58:31,490 --> 00:58:42,030 And of course, we had some remarkable people in the practise. I mean, when I was appointed to this leadership job, the most and person came out, 521 00:58:42,030 --> 00:58:48,050 came and got a job, and she she came and finished her general practise training with me. 522 00:58:48,050 --> 00:58:51,890 And then just after that, I found this new job. 523 00:58:51,890 --> 00:58:59,690 And so we decided to take in an Macpherson's a part time partner was the best thing we ever did because she was a remarkable person. 524 00:58:59,690 --> 00:59:03,320 Yes. Yes. It's been a great interview. 525 00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:10,850 Anything else you want to say? I think that's. Yeah. OK, well, I mean, I'm not harmed anybody's reputation. 526 00:59:10,850 --> 00:59:14,220 No, I think you've been very discreet. Thanks.