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Professor Derek Jeter being interviewed by Derek Hockaday on the 14th, I think it is 14th of February.

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Well, Derek, you're a tremendous part of the medical school and that you've been involved with it for a long time.

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So let's start at the beginning. You came up as an undergraduate to Japan.

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Yes, 1959. Was that a Nuffield scholarship?

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Uh, I was, uh, over next. Yes. Great.

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And was that still with Percy O'Brien? Because, as you said, the use of that period of.

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Perskie is an absolute wonderful tutor. Uh, because in those days.

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It was very often the one to one choice. Sometimes there were two of us, um, we read essays.

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Have they tended to shreds? Um, but my choice was always between six and seven.

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And at seven o'clock, he would always produce a show for just before 7:00 so that he could get out of the senior home for dinner.

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So he is, um. And he was very kind hearted, he was very supportive.

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Um. And you just had to put up with his.

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Sense of humour, um, which would now be regarded as testing, is pretty correct.

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Uh. Um, he was very bright and, um.

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He is one of these. People didn't do this in academic life.

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OK, who was?

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Have had a very destructive mind, but I found it quite difficult to be constructed in such a sense and therefore these publications were quite small.

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Um, but, uh, yes, he was a lively character competition, it was.

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Um, not always pleasant, the great,

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she said they usually had your first three years of the beer and then you did one year of on a school of animal physiology.

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Yes. Had they reformed it by that time? No. So what did you think of that?

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Um, well, we knew the difference. That was how it was.

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And we enjoyed a great year and.

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Um. Just there is an enormous privilege you gave to to have people like.

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Uh, within the parameters of professor physiology, um.

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And David Matthews said there was a, uh, vaguely akin to, uh.

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Sherrington. Um, and then also we had, um, uh, Dan Cunningham, um, Brian Boyd and respiratory physiology, uh, yeah.

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It was a very, uh, stimulating environment to, uh, to study that, uh.

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Most if you're not part of this group, you did two terms of, um, pathology and.

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Uh, pharmacologic bacteriology and then most people in the April 12 to 15 technical and a few of the stay, I wanted to stay.

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But I wanted to do. The adoption of this event would do, um.

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If I think we did that first and four terms for schools, you could do I mean, I did that way back and I mean, I'm ten days days.

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I did it. But you could do the part about it first and then do the full terms of schools.

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And that's that's what I did find. Um, and I have to say that one of the major reasons for doing it was because, um.

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The first several schools, the fall was, of course.

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Yeah, I was very active on the river ride and a Secretary Gates at that work and.

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Were you a Cox? I was. Yeah. And, um, uh, was also involved in a little bit of research in the respiratory physiology part.

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So that was the reason for, uh, carrying that.

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But pass back for us. And did your research lead to anything or was it just a bit of work?

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I didn't it wasn't a degree registered thing. That's great.

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Um, and the respiratory thing, they were quite metabolic in a way.

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I was you was very breathing or was it to do with whatever it is?

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Um. Um, I began to fall silent behind the Brandenburg's equations, which I found very difficult.

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It's, uh, you know, and then what made you decide to do clinical in Oxford?

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Um. I think really the total going to London didn't seem particularly attractive.

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Um, and, uh, stay in Oxford.

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Where that is, we have some groups having spent just three years here, um.

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It's much more attractive, so. I think I recognise some of the, um, teachers in the technical school that.

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Early stage as being the. Very, very stimulating and, um, you know, I just enjoyed it, and I think that Percy, uh,

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brought a great interest in on the 12 and of course one actually came to the US, which were very much interested in other departments and.

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And so I think there are a number of reasons that made you want to stay in some cases during your preclinical ahead,

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Ullico been doing demonstrations of patients.

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Um, he had, um, we had one,

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a finical physiology or a chemical that's in the lecture quite often to tend

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to kind of open to that kind of nasty or nasty as applied to clinical lesson.

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And then we had people like Francis Caird. And cook.

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Um. Those are the two I remember most did it's a chemical physiology.

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So, uh. There you all will be exposed a little bit to some of the teachers,

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thing I forgot to mention was what did you think of the entrance procedure to Pennbrook and to the university's, uh.

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Uh. Well, in those days, if you wanted to apply to Oxford and Cambridge, uh, you did A-levels again two years and then you stayed on for 36.

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Um, uh, I was being encouraged at school to.

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Talks which surrounded the thirty six so tried for.

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Um, oxer, I think, largely because I lost my schoolmasters.

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Um, were Oxford graduates from Cambridge? I remember a few from Cambridge, but once you had those two friends who were probably from Oxford.

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Uh. The application form me has to, um.

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This colleges, in order of preference, at least for about half a dozen.

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Mm hmm. Uh, but I have no idea. You know, I was the first member of the family that even think about going to, um.

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But, um, it was my history, my school, who, um, was very interested in, uh, and I got home very well and even in the sciences,

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um, we often used to talk in the corridors until he graduated from Pembroke.

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Mm hmm. Um, and the current master plan.

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But I can tell you very well the kind of history he said, I will write on your behalf.

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And so I came up for an interview. Um. They discussed, for example, issues.

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What they don't see is, uh, came straight from school.

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Living in the college for a week. Uh, which is very smart.

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You have to cross to quadrangles in wins and wethers to get into the bars and the.

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Um, and. Um, it is early December.

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Yes, it was cold and wet. The examination schools don't seem to say the least.

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Um. I think they did exams Thursday, Friday.

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We have about until Sunday evening. When a list of top military.

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To, um. Indicate who has being invited to stay for the practical examinations, um, on Monday and Tuesday.

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Well, I my name is on the list, so you stayed on.

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And did the fact that in some parts of. The is.

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And the. Uh.

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The Science Show is. 310 professors of colleges listed.

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I for temporary less and was more constructive, is infuriating to ask you about the interview in a large.

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So to ask you about the practical use of for.

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Yes, but that's. Um, just came round during one of the past four days and asked me a few questions.

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It didn't last very long. Um, no more than ten minutes.

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And then, um, uh, John Walker is here.

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You know, he came out and said, would I please, uh, come down to us for an interview at five in the was finished at five.

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That was a terrible experience because it goes against the principles and is absolutely shocking, was read.

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I had a raincoat, but it's quite a sad story to lose and I rain soaked in drag.

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And just really awful that I had to have an interview in this state until the second sat down in this room,

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there was a fire going and he said, just take off your raincoat.

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Really, don't worry about being said he's opposed to share your life with one another in which you are clinically is not.

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Sixty three to sixty six. Yeah. So I don't know who's the director of clinical studies and how did you enjoy those?

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It was it was enormous fun. Uh.

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Because like taking full turns for schools, I came in with the base more than 10 times in September.

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There were. Five or six of us may be up to this team, Jones.

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Uh, um. And I remember the the introductory course, Feiwel, which is four weeks at that time, I'm very much hands on.

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And we were told we were being split in.

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To the, um, on how often do, um, a surgical firm, the other half of this would do a medical and then we swap out,

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but so they were just I think in the end they were four of us on the surgical front.

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And so. They're just. And you were allowed to do far more now than what they do?

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Uh, yes, because when you say that you had a smooth entry because of the setting, it wasn't that big the other half, was it?

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Well, it was about. Um, usually mid 20s, yes, somewhere between 23 and 26, so, uh, we were the two best students in Germany, but.

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Right. So there was quite a big difference. Mm hmm.

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And by that time, Pickering had got going. And what was the sort of feeling of the Pickering Witt's relationship?

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Um. It rapidly became obvious that they didn't speak to me, that I was never on.

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Uh, the can we just oppressiveness.

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So I really didn't know them very well in the course of the afternoon, technical meetings, which was called the Witches.

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Yeah, that was uh, uh, that was because Professor Woods, um, sort of on occasion when he, uh, up here.

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Still, there is usually, um, telling nature I take on the religious right.

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There's no precedent. Yeah. And did you get into an V12, in fact?

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Um. Yes. I mean, uh, I thoroughly enjoyed being has.

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On the idea and then subsequently did the S.H.

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And, um, particularly during the election year, if you not enough in politics and with sheer candour and,

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um, and so had their own, that she was much higher than the rest of us because, um.

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And the. Afternoons of thirty five, and very often,

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if I had time go along that corridor up to the doctor and read the blood films and the battle lines, maybe to kill him.

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And then she apparently would come along, um.

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Show me what nonsense I so that was a very interesting time, not very much enjoyed that, but of course I also enjoyed the, um, the gastroenterology.

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And so should the games, uh, the 12 interests.

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And it was towards the end of that year, the next election that she attended and asked me if I'd like to be film.

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And I said, yes, I'd love to. So she said, well, we need to find some money.

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It was a week afterwards. The Sydney True called me down to his office and said what I like to do it, he said, yes, I would, but not in.

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Ask you the same question, and I said yes. He said, I don't think she'll ever find you Cinefamily within a few weeks, uh, and I never had any more.

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And so that's why I went to and told you, isn't it interesting what determines things and is happenstance.

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Right? Was there a guy called Jeff? Yes.

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And what was your view of him and his place? Jeff was, uh.

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I mean, he was a scientist. And.

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He was. He was quite gruff, but I just got off the phone with his, uh, uh, you know, when I did get going.

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Will the city that that city was just adjacent to just this office and he acted as the administrator for,

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um, for the laboratories year anyway, so, you know, basically like.

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Yes, and I've always seen him as quite an important guy.

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And that set up very much. Yes, entirely. Now, we've been talking about Pickering and what about Badenoch and True Love?

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How did they get out of. I think they respected each other, but they were not particularly friendly.

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No, they're different animals, aren't they? Yes.

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And did was jumping off, as it were, going along a research line.

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And then things changed and he took up the wider ambit of practise and.

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When I was a technical student and then subsequently.

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How soon, I said, sure. Uh, Baker wasn't doing any research right in any way.

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Yeah, it was an excellent mission. Yes. Um, he director of clinical studies, but, um, there was no academic activity going on.

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And I she really was following his paper on absorption and adults.

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And Jack, I don't think he really published anything.

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Mm hmm. That's all substantial, right? So you did your jobs then, did you do the you before the OSHA?

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Uh. I did.

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Last time I talked to Hammersmith for six months, I was a SAHM and, uh, came back, uh, for the one year S.H. job and then straight into research.

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Yes. And the answer was that in the end again. Yeah.

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Yeah. So you really sausen in those guys and that was still it, was it.

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Uh, no. I came back, um, on tape.

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Mm hmm. So that must be an interesting and good as well.

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And which was good. I really, you know, some.

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Um, yeah, they're supposedly, um.

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He was often not present on the weekends, but when he was he was very stimulating.

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Yes. Um, and he would do a movie at.

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And then there was a coffee break and then six.

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And as for some of what I saw, which is what I watch, um, uh, for the past and present support to students in cases, and he was paying off that.

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And that was a terrifying experience because he was really a shock, um, as it was presenting cases which which I did many times.

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Uh, he would always find when you came back from the Hammersmith,

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what did you feel about Oxford compared to the heavens with the headmistress compared to Oxford?

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Um. I think Oxford was a bit more gentlemanly.

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Uh. It seems smaller than the Handsworth.

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Uh. And it is the stuff that has left over the last line, right?

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I never have, but, um, because they were.

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They were electrifying experiences. Um.

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The home of the department is gathered in quite large shifts this.

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Along the front. Well, um, all the serious stuff.

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Uh, Crispus was the president as as he was in the chair.

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Um. In gastroenterology, you had heard Darwin and Thomas.

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There in cardiology. That was, um, surgeon Michael Suda, hopefully for.

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Um, we had, um, uh, chronologies.

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Russell Fraser, Russell Fraser, um, and Joplin, yeah, um, solidness with the.

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All of own, this was their correspondence with the.

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It was it was Star-studded. And.

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Were they prima donnas? There is extraordinary and and the fight to proceed discussion of the cases was just amazing and we didn't have that option.

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It was much, much more gentle. And that wasn't to say people can make some very insightful comments.

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But they did, and I swear this house, it animals, right?

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And then you were convinced and. Oh yes. What did you feel about his arrival?

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Well, you know, that was a very different. Um, way of doing things and, um, you.

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On the move. Tell him about the past and he would then dictate to you what you have to record in the next and see your writing seriously unhappy.

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You're not more in this group. Um, in the days after this, um.

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Um, he was he was a very she. Um.

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Very nice to push. But he found it very difficult to.

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With a parasitic walk around, yeah, busy now, busy men.

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Twelve patients in 24 hours, which, of course, is a joke.

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Um, you should usually have about 20 to 30 in a 12 hour shift.

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And. I learnt that one group that.

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He wanted to learn something about the family history.

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And in particular, I remember he wanted to know my grandmother died of and I did not know there.

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And the message that was like, yes, you're in a secret.

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Yeah. And the other said, OK, then you sort have to start eating them mind so off the wall that you're compensating for pieces of this.

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And so it was. Um.

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It's. I think that she will this whole here.

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Says he wasn't used to dealing with 12 new patients and the medical problems were more than.

196
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That is certainly shocking. Yes, so you do feel that clinically linked to you, pretty laboratory based?

197
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Um, uh, it was mainly laboratory based, but it was, um.

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Looking at a variety of logical, um, processes related to, uh, in fact,

199
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she certainly had to collect samples, uh, from the critics and friends and get you to.

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So I started looking at, um, um, uh, I teach AGP antibodies to three proteins because, like,

201
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you were just just two or three years ago being put on the map and discovered by volunteers in Cambridge.

202
00:26:36,190 --> 00:26:43,310
In fact, I spent a couple of weeks in approach, approach and the techniques.

203
00:26:43,310 --> 00:26:47,730
Um, and that is proving to be a.

204
00:26:47,730 --> 00:26:56,760
Disciplines you take to study. Uh, so, uh, in Montana, uh, was along the corridor.

205
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:07,970
Yes, and so. After that, 18 months on, IG Antiquities were proving to be still related, um.

206
00:27:07,970 --> 00:27:15,630
Then I asked if I could study, uh, the president's contacts, his.

207
00:27:15,630 --> 00:27:21,070
In the. In the city of.

208
00:27:21,070 --> 00:27:32,870
Keep with mission that is much more productive and is now he was one of the two that came in on the peace and ticket, George Elberta McLennon.

209
00:27:32,870 --> 00:27:39,220
Yes. And how did you see McClellan's sort of face working role working?

210
00:27:39,220 --> 00:27:47,140
And he was he was very successful. He ran a, uh, very good.

211
00:27:47,140 --> 00:27:53,240
Um, uh, um.

212
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,930
Now, is it very nice that, um,

213
00:27:56,930 --> 00:28:09,530
it wasn't a surprise that after about five or six years and also that he took the chair and then all of a sudden she's had, um.

214
00:28:09,530 --> 00:28:22,240
Now, after your feel, um, what did you do then, um, became senior registrar to, uh, from the age of letting a ride?

215
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:31,220
Um, and, uh, and then, uh, she just is as well as I can remember, you in the Hudson.

216
00:28:31,220 --> 00:28:34,760
I was wondering just which busy was, but that I got it.

217
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:42,110
Yeah. And well that was a fact. There were some rockets my around in that firm.

218
00:28:42,110 --> 00:28:48,990
The bench was absolutely. And how long did you do that?

219
00:28:48,990 --> 00:29:03,260
Three years or I guess it's yes, um, I, I really had both shortened senior registrar time because, uh, um, I think it was in my second year.

220
00:29:03,260 --> 00:29:09,500
Towards the end of the second year, I got to graduate for you, right?

221
00:29:09,500 --> 00:29:20,720
And so after about two and a half years and I saw this kid off to Stanford for my year pool because in those days they were actually trying to shoot.

222
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:35,530
Um, get here and also touch the bus approach and the attachment that I think you were to to the high tech four times to.

223
00:29:35,530 --> 00:29:42,350
Which is seen as a junior person. You didn't have to take out a.

224
00:29:42,350 --> 00:29:47,740
They seriously was to intimidate me, but I did go in, I think, twice.

225
00:29:47,740 --> 00:29:56,410
Um, um. And then the second year provided you with some money to go abroad.

226
00:29:56,410 --> 00:30:05,420
And so I worked extensively with computers. What made you choose for and Keith Taylor and your circulation in Oxford?

227
00:30:05,420 --> 00:30:11,080
You know, I think a lot of that, um, and he have.

228
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:17,040
Uh. I think it was about 90.

229
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:29,250
Seventy one, seventy two, so that's pretty, uh, it was, uh, and so I got to know him well they uh and uh, that is really why I say, uh.

230
00:30:29,250 --> 00:30:42,240
So you're back on the B 12 from now. Yeah. Yeah. I was sort of, uh, I spent my year trying to isolate for five cents in the stomach.

231
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:49,140
And we did some very nice. Um.

232
00:30:49,140 --> 00:30:55,890
They were trying to demonstrate the Massachusets.

233
00:30:55,890 --> 00:30:57,970
He did.

234
00:30:57,970 --> 00:31:14,350
The, uh, we made available, um, gas, food, and, um, incubated these products with it, wash it off and then, um, um, exposed it to actually tanks.

235
00:31:14,350 --> 00:31:24,450
So, um, um, the first experiment and it's quite a big experiment because there were obviously lots of controls.

236
00:31:24,450 --> 00:31:30,460
Um. Uh, maybe not positive.

237
00:31:30,460 --> 00:31:36,300
But then, um, because the results were so good.

238
00:31:36,300 --> 00:31:43,420
Um, Casebolt found some money for me to stay on instead of.

239
00:31:43,420 --> 00:31:52,230
But I had to come back. So I've have my senior registrar had some notice.

240
00:31:52,230 --> 00:31:59,310
Um, so the laboratory technician promised to keep these guys away.

241
00:31:59,310 --> 00:32:05,860
Uh. And, uh, when I got back to the.

242
00:32:05,860 --> 00:32:11,360
And various things happened, I think it was there for another three months.

243
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:22,500
Um, um, uh. Since just I think the Asians didn't come in time.

244
00:32:22,500 --> 00:32:29,570
We got past the fact that it was never sufficient to publish it is about.

245
00:32:29,570 --> 00:32:34,100
Four or five years later, the Los Angeles group.

246
00:32:34,100 --> 00:32:41,360
Um, actually published a paper today showing that it was the gas prices, I mean,

247
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:46,190
that all sounds very unlike what we thought about American medicine in those days.

248
00:32:46,190 --> 00:32:52,970
You said she hadn't done it. You mean that she had not attempted it or she'd attempted it and failed to do it?

249
00:32:52,970 --> 00:32:57,070
No, I and it is just one project that she she had.

250
00:32:57,070 --> 00:33:03,650
Yeah. Yeah, I understand. And so she just didn't and they couldn't get the reagents.

251
00:33:03,650 --> 00:33:08,060
I can't remember which I think was Gap, the pure gastric.

252
00:33:08,060 --> 00:33:23,860
Uh, um. Um. That the run actually has been rewarded and it's just happened and I think I, I really can't.

253
00:33:23,860 --> 00:33:27,910
It's very interesting. Yeah, yeah.

254
00:33:27,910 --> 00:33:33,460
Um, how much clinical did you do in America? Right.

255
00:33:33,460 --> 00:33:46,120
I had taken my DCF energy, so I was is, um, I was given the title of associate professor at Stanford and.

256
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:55,550
When? Uh, Keith was there was a two week period where he was away when he was actually attending for gastroenterology,

257
00:33:55,550 --> 00:34:05,360
that I think I was allowed to attend, um, for inpatient, but I didn't do the outpatient know that inpatient experience.

258
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:16,750
How did you enjoy that? Well, it was extraordinary because, um, you are not allowed to do anything without inviting half a dozen other.

259
00:34:16,750 --> 00:34:23,230
Yeah, that's, uh. That's right. And we had.

260
00:34:23,230 --> 00:34:32,900
A patient with undiagnosed coeliac disease. Well, the diagnosis was obvious, but they had died.

261
00:34:32,900 --> 00:34:37,990
And so I said, well, how about this 2012?

262
00:34:37,990 --> 00:34:44,950
And then you need to need a haematology consult, all frightfully cumbersome.

263
00:34:44,950 --> 00:34:49,870
It was very thorough. Um, um, it was.

264
00:34:49,870 --> 00:35:03,010
Good collaboration of different disciplines that we grew up in this system were moved as you did it all yourself, and if you stop, then compromise.

265
00:35:03,010 --> 00:35:06,760
So it was, uh, I thought it was rather cumbersome.

266
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:14,530
Every time anybody gave a concert, there were about three or four pages in the names of the writing.

267
00:35:14,530 --> 00:35:23,770
They just, uh, just seemed to be a bit dense. And so you were glad to get back to parties.

268
00:35:23,770 --> 00:35:28,960
So how much more did you do as an aside, before you got a consultant from us?

269
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:36,430
Three months. But I suppose I was myself in more than, um, coming up to three years.

270
00:35:36,430 --> 00:35:40,560
And I mean, was that because sitting at a time that no one ever knew?

271
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:52,340
Um, I came back. I went to Stanford in April 17th.

272
00:35:52,340 --> 00:36:00,600
Three, um. In January of 74.

273
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:14,220
Then there was a job advertised at Middlesex Hospital because I knew I was coming back, um, city so that I should apply for it.

274
00:36:14,220 --> 00:36:22,720
So I came back for an interview. And his testimony did not get the job and.

275
00:36:22,720 --> 00:36:29,260
Who did it? Peter Costello, a distinguished pathologist.

276
00:36:29,260 --> 00:36:33,940
OK, right, OK. Yes. And I mean, he is not just the world IACP.

277
00:36:33,940 --> 00:36:39,010
All right. So these are the states officially retired.

278
00:36:39,010 --> 00:36:55,970
Um. But at the final interview, the London University representative on this was an NHS post last year, Sherlock and.

279
00:36:55,970 --> 00:37:03,750
It was a short time afterwards. I got cancelled at about 8:00 in the morning.

280
00:37:03,750 --> 00:37:09,170
And the phone is ringing and it was Sydney. And.

281
00:37:09,170 --> 00:37:15,280
He said, I've had she [INAUDIBLE] up on the floor wondering why you haven't applied for that job.

282
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:20,750
And so I said, well, I didn't know that was a job. And I was a senior lecturer post.

283
00:37:20,750 --> 00:37:26,030
So she advertised for and she clearly identified.

284
00:37:26,030 --> 00:37:30,350
During this interview, Little says the first person to be appointed.

285
00:37:30,350 --> 00:37:36,300
Yeah, um, and so I finish my job.

286
00:37:36,300 --> 00:37:47,490
He just returned to Stanford for just a few more weeks, um, came back, got married and started a free range.

287
00:37:47,490 --> 00:37:53,660
And how long were you then there? From 1974 to 1980, right.

288
00:37:53,660 --> 00:37:59,640
In the 1980s. And what was your speciality at the military?

289
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:10,080
I just had to look after to do that. Right. Um, and any time I showed an interest in and I was warned off in no uncertain terms.

290
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:21,570
Um, so, uh, um. And she have the policy of having a senior lecturer who was promoted to do that.

291
00:38:21,570 --> 00:38:28,980
And so my predecessors were Tony Dawson, who was I know.

292
00:38:28,980 --> 00:38:32,640
And then, um, in that chair.

293
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:41,210
Yes. Went off to. It it reaches, uh, and.

294
00:38:41,210 --> 00:38:53,080
Uh, Grayson, Rand had just said there was no space at the new hospital and announced it was being built.

295
00:38:53,080 --> 00:39:08,980
All this built up, so I arrived roughly in August 1974, and in October, I was the first person to occupy any space in the new hospital in the house.

296
00:39:08,980 --> 00:39:15,730
Very good. Yeah, and that was just laboratory space of.

297
00:39:15,730 --> 00:39:25,010
So, I mean, there was no inflammatory bowel disease care so that you started it and, you know.

298
00:39:25,010 --> 00:39:36,380
Came into a thriving G.I. Joe, G.I., um, kind and service by, uh, um, that's on my desk.

299
00:39:36,380 --> 00:39:42,110
And were you an honorary consultant there? So what made you move back to Oxford?

300
00:39:42,110 --> 00:39:54,940
I was it a better job in Oxford? Well. The attraction coming back was it was really the big check, the Sydney man.

301
00:39:54,940 --> 00:40:10,070
And the. The ability to network with immunology and, um, uh, yeah, it was a very attractive.

302
00:40:10,070 --> 00:40:19,720
So which immunologists rather should be, um, what it was really, um, links with the South possible.

303
00:40:19,720 --> 00:40:23,990
Yeah. No, I guess put them in the Willingdon school. And who was it really.

304
00:40:23,990 --> 00:40:28,610
Um, well we soon started collaborating with SonicWALL but.

305
00:40:28,610 --> 00:40:35,150
Yeah. Great. And you're glad you made that move, I would guess.

306
00:40:35,150 --> 00:40:44,090
But before we go on to what you did, as it were, tell me about sitting in his place in the Oxford school and inflammatory bowel disease.

307
00:40:44,090 --> 00:40:49,290
Um, yes. Uh.

308
00:40:49,290 --> 00:40:56,600
Well, Cindy had a very interesting career because.

309
00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:06,330
As a. Young consultants, already senior registrar, has increased his medical school was King's,

310
00:41:06,330 --> 00:41:20,160
um, he went into the RNC and, um, was in Italy, um, towards the end of the.

311
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:33,360
And his first paper was on what was then called his fascist titles, which was, of course, at it's hard to say, um, um,

312
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:42,050
on on the epidemiology of this in the troops and his paper that's really largely focussed on the book,

313
00:41:42,050 --> 00:41:48,380
but actually preceded anything else and had something to say for a long time.

314
00:41:48,380 --> 00:41:59,800
Um, and, uh, then he came back as a consultant physician in Norwich.

315
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:07,580
And I don't know why this is what's.

316
00:42:07,580 --> 00:42:12,430
Knew about him and asked him to kind of.

317
00:42:12,430 --> 00:42:24,820
To Oxford, and if you remember, the Oxford technology was and first assistant professor to see the Canada, um, and Sydney.

318
00:42:24,820 --> 00:42:36,140
So Sydney arrived in Oxford, um, I think 1948 or somewhere there in the late forties.

319
00:42:36,140 --> 00:42:39,910
Um. Perhaps slightly late.

320
00:42:39,910 --> 00:42:56,800
Yeah, I think it is about that 48 49. Uh, and then, uh, um, corticosteroids were had been introduced and, um, for future disorders.

321
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:01,510
And I don't know whose idea it was.

322
00:43:01,510 --> 00:43:07,360
The thought about studying the use of steroids in their classes.

323
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:18,210
I didn't know that the severe weather was nasty ones, but I think it was Sydney, um, that really got the Austin colitis interest.

324
00:43:18,210 --> 00:43:29,900
Um. And of course, he's paid for all the, uh, uh, coaches and reducing the mortality rate in severe colitis from,

325
00:43:29,900 --> 00:43:36,960
uh, something like 30 percent down to about 10 percent.

326
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:48,660
Um, was dramatic, and that picture was the most widely quoted and was that animal, so that was, um.

327
00:43:48,660 --> 00:43:55,860
I think or no, I mean, um, but the animal studies followed, uh,

328
00:43:55,860 --> 00:44:07,940
because Cindy knew by then the technologies for using topical steroids, uh, XMA classlessness of.

329
00:44:07,940 --> 00:44:12,690
Masterclasses is just like eczema, the skin so chocolatey.

330
00:44:12,690 --> 00:44:23,840
That's the reason for the yellow. And then, of course, his other landmark paper, apart from the course was, uh, uh,

331
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:32,390
the two packages going to be a check on the natural history and lasted for this year.

332
00:44:32,390 --> 00:44:40,070
Yes. Now, he was a remarkable man because he had a very important paper on pulmonary embolism to be he.

333
00:44:40,070 --> 00:44:47,210
Yes. And his habit to work there. Well, it's, um.

334
00:44:47,210 --> 00:44:55,280
Well, so the whole time I knew him from, uh, 1959 onwards,

335
00:44:55,280 --> 00:45:20,040
they did not get involved and always said that he used to live here about thirty 12 in the morning and gave him about seven.

336
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:24,000
So he came about 11 who didn't start working,

337
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:31,350
and he usually got in in time just to shuffle through a few pages on his desk post in

338
00:45:31,350 --> 00:45:37,680
the morning and sign that investors and then handed off to the canteen for lunch.

339
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:41,280
Um, usually with Islamised in the red. Yes.

340
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:55,770
He's worked closely with, um, and, uh, he worked at that time one of the major textbook in gastroenterology, um, uh,

341
00:45:55,770 --> 00:46:02,880
called diseases of that type digestive system, which he did with, um,

342
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:10,510
one of the lecturers in the department, Peter Renda, who became a consultant in Bradford.

343
00:46:10,510 --> 00:46:21,360
So I so the first edition was published, um, late 1950s and uh, Blackwells, he published it once.

344
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:34,450
It's a second edition. So she asked me if I would help, but that was a very interesting experience because, uh,

345
00:46:34,450 --> 00:46:44,590
we would have a somewhat unpleasant summer in the county, about seven to seven thirty in the evening.

346
00:46:44,590 --> 00:46:56,650
We then walk over to the actual science library and using the index medicus because PubMed and such electronic search engines are not available.

347
00:46:56,650 --> 00:47:05,760
Uh, we looked up the latest work in whatever chapter we've been working on, the oesophagus, on Pattakos.

348
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:16,050
So, uh, we may some those, um, important papers and the reference and then the library closed at 10 o'clock in the evening,

349
00:47:16,050 --> 00:47:23,620
we went to his house, the Tiger Woods store. Right. Um, where I'm have had coffee ready.

350
00:47:23,620 --> 00:47:35,470
Uh, and we then added that chapter bringing us up to date until about 3:00 in the morning.

351
00:47:35,470 --> 00:47:40,590
Uh, sometimes Sidney would run out of cigarettes. So it was about talk.

352
00:47:40,590 --> 00:47:40,730
Talk.

353
00:47:40,730 --> 00:47:51,600
That one says, um, we had to take a breath of air, which meant walking up to the roundabout, to the garage to buy cigarettes and came back again.

354
00:47:51,600 --> 00:48:01,680
And, uh, then two thirty three o'clock, uh, he was decided he decided it was time for a glass of whisky.

355
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:06,660
So I used to get hold of that for a bit.

356
00:48:06,660 --> 00:48:13,720
And this was uh, sort of May, June, July, August time.

357
00:48:13,720 --> 00:48:21,930
So and it was already getting late, but I was getting ahead and I was in the in the requisite seven by eight to

358
00:48:21,930 --> 00:48:27,260
eight thirty in the morning because you were doing general medicine as well.

359
00:48:27,260 --> 00:48:35,760
But carrying on with my research. Yes. Uh, often in the clinics but in the afternoons.

360
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:46,500
So there was no clinical work in the morning, although I would often get called in to see, um, somebody on the ward with Kagi.

361
00:48:46,500 --> 00:48:55,410
So I sort of acted as a senior registrar and gastroenterology for that for that time and for Peter.

362
00:48:55,410 --> 00:49:03,390
And now he left. But obviously, you know. I understand. And jumping way back, was he an assistant to it?

363
00:49:03,390 --> 00:49:08,350
So was he always. And it just because I thought he became an adjacent to physics.

364
00:49:08,350 --> 00:49:17,980
Yes. I think he, uh, he he did have a full time academic post initially, but that became NHS.

365
00:49:17,980 --> 00:49:22,050
I think that must have been four of them at one time, but they probably shuffled a bit.

366
00:49:22,050 --> 00:49:28,590
But it doesn't matter. Um, and he was a remarkable man, as I say, because he had lots of hobbies.

367
00:49:28,590 --> 00:49:32,850
I believe he had old cars. Yes, he had pottery.

368
00:49:32,850 --> 00:49:37,230
Yes. And heaven knows whether there's a God. Right. Right.

369
00:49:37,230 --> 00:49:38,430
Yes.

370
00:49:38,430 --> 00:49:49,860
And was he a great runner, too, in his youth where he did run, but he got half billion for boxing from Cambridge because I'd heard he got the flu.

371
00:49:49,860 --> 00:49:56,880
Gosh, he grew up in, uh, um, a small village just outside Cambridge.

372
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:04,190
Um, and, uh, got a scholarship to.

373
00:50:04,190 --> 00:50:11,510
Trinity Hall and foxing now as a fugitive.

374
00:50:11,510 --> 00:50:18,590
And did you find it difficult talking to him? He's very slow speech or did he talk fast or one to one?

375
00:50:18,590 --> 00:50:24,560
I was very nervous because he slept, but it didn't bother me.

376
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:39,350
Hmm. And then he returned much more so some of the very bright academics in the university that went off like a train, that train.

377
00:50:39,350 --> 00:50:46,220
So then he retired. Yes. And you came back from the Royal Free to take up the clinic, as it were.

378
00:50:46,220 --> 00:50:49,610
And you would be single handed then, as it were. Yes.

379
00:50:49,610 --> 00:50:56,180
As a consultant. And how do you see things from then on it?

380
00:50:56,180 --> 00:51:05,480
Sort of two comments. The subject itself and the way the NHS evolved when I was in Sydney, of course, was a long time university.

381
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:12,200
Yes. And by the time he retired there, Weatherill had been in place for, um.

382
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:25,820
A couple of years, maybe three, um, and had a large enough department interest quite considerably, and so when Sidney retired,

383
00:51:25,820 --> 00:51:35,900
um, David said that he really did division and that's so gastroenterology became a full time NHS post.

384
00:51:35,900 --> 00:51:50,180
Um, and I was always did not apply for the job because, um, with the amount of general medicine that went with it being a generalist.

385
00:51:50,180 --> 00:51:54,530
But I mean in times of uh oh. Laboratories.

386
00:51:54,530 --> 00:52:06,880
Yeah. Uh, but then David said we just moved out to the Raptors February as a piece of laboratory space available to that.

387
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:24,080
Hmm. And uh. Uh, Robert Turner yourself, people are still down here and he said you can use the administrative procedure, the TED.

388
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:31,020
Yes, it is, um, of purchasing stuff and keeping the party running.

389
00:52:31,020 --> 00:52:37,820
And, um, so that's why I continue to have an interest.

390
00:52:37,820 --> 00:52:48,710
And I don't mind me being here just a short time, just a few months from when I called for Senator Sessions, which made a big difference,

391
00:52:48,710 --> 00:52:55,980
because up to then, had you been working in a laboratory setting, you set up a laboratory straight away, did you?

392
00:52:55,980 --> 00:53:01,930
Yes. Yes. And then the full of the months you got proper allowance for.

393
00:53:01,930 --> 00:53:06,040
Yes. That's great. And did you have to fundraise? Yes.

394
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:10,910
I don't know. I was getting no money. Yeah. And how easy was that?

395
00:53:10,910 --> 00:53:15,380
The, uh. The feeling. Yeah. How easy was the fundraising?

396
00:53:15,380 --> 00:53:20,200
Where did you get it from? Well, it's never easy.

397
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:25,830
Fact. Uh, I got it from wherever you could. Yeah. But I mean, was it the most serious.

398
00:53:25,830 --> 00:53:28,450
Well, Cassie, welcome.

399
00:53:28,450 --> 00:53:39,380
Um, we were ready without a clinical trial and the fellowship from the L.L.C. love and um and then from the charitable organisations,

400
00:53:39,380 --> 00:53:44,090
there was this thing called the National Association of Trans Colitis.

401
00:53:44,090 --> 00:53:50,150
And a few grants from that is, um, uh, what is now called coeliac.

402
00:53:50,150 --> 00:53:59,750
Uh, it's got money from, um, uh, the pharmaceutical industry sometimes provided the grants all the time.

403
00:53:59,750 --> 00:54:08,870
So I would be involved in clinical trials and all the money, uh, patients that you had went into the research team.

404
00:54:08,870 --> 00:54:20,750
So, I mean, it was, um, it was just wherever he is from industry and, uh, from the pharmaceutical industry, but not on a regular basis.

405
00:54:20,750 --> 00:54:33,110
Um, but I mean, you couldn't run, um, I think the maximum number of research facilities we ever had was ten, which was a bit too many years.

406
00:54:33,110 --> 00:54:44,130
Um, you needed a full time research secretary to about all that, and I had to pay her from wherever.

407
00:54:44,130 --> 00:54:55,470
I saw a few patients in the in the John Radcliffe, um, not very many, and all of that went into the kitty to the,

408
00:54:55,470 --> 00:55:02,490
uh, the research side is now in that subject, the interaction with the surgeon surgeons must be very important.

409
00:55:02,490 --> 00:55:09,510
Yes. And Sidney with a built up, I think it this built up a very, very strong link.

410
00:55:09,510 --> 00:55:17,270
Uh, and of course, when he retired, the key GI surgeons were like, OK, well, I had to manually write.

411
00:55:17,270 --> 00:55:26,220
I have no it was very, very, um, keen that I should come back from London.

412
00:55:26,220 --> 00:55:36,030
And, uh, we worked together very well. So it was a great idea on the face of it, um, when I first came back.

413
00:55:36,030 --> 00:55:40,240
Yes. I wasn't one of them. That trial was cut off the liver disease.

414
00:55:40,240 --> 00:55:46,860
So I didn't have to do it here until he did the liver surgery.

415
00:55:46,860 --> 00:55:51,240
Um, so the legal team was ready.

416
00:55:51,240 --> 00:55:58,800
Myself and the two surgeons had done that for radiology.

417
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:06,060
And we had lost the very distinguished guy dislodges to Australia.

418
00:56:06,060 --> 00:56:13,170
And that was, uh, Dick Whitehead. But, uh, was John.

419
00:56:13,170 --> 00:56:20,700
So I brought on and I was the Whiteheads procedure, and they both went off to do it right.

420
00:56:20,700 --> 00:56:28,530
So for theology, um, think we had a senior registrar denoted.

421
00:56:28,530 --> 00:56:34,080
Yes. Um, to look after us. Who wrote it?

422
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:47,640
Well, it had never intended to be, um, the senior registrar coming up to the end of his time, that thoughts were in passing the NRC past.

423
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:52,350
Mm hmm. Uh, and of course, as soon as I got that exam, it was an exit exam.

424
00:56:52,350 --> 00:57:05,430
So as soon as they said they were applying for jobs, so it turned out that they had rabbit is um and obviously they were trained in general pathology.

425
00:57:05,430 --> 00:57:15,300
But most of the time I knew more about what we were looking at as a little piece of gastrointestinal mucosa than they did.

426
00:57:15,300 --> 00:57:23,340
So we trained them a bit. But that actually to them can really very competent and very useful later on.

427
00:57:23,340 --> 00:57:32,370
Did you get a focussed. Well, a pathologist finally we got Brian Burke, who, of course, um, sadly just died a year ago.

428
00:57:32,370 --> 00:57:41,980
Yeah. Um, but I mean, he was one of the leading inflammatory bowel disease GI soldiers in the world that

429
00:57:41,980 --> 00:57:49,380
the enormous difference you said earlier about the neighbour due to network.

430
00:57:49,380 --> 00:57:56,520
So who in the sense was that with, um, did you travel all of a sudden travel?

431
00:57:56,520 --> 00:58:01,080
Um, most of the network was just down the road.

432
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:08,430
Um, and as I said with, um, uh, the Dinescu, um, um,

433
00:58:08,430 --> 00:58:15,630
Philipa is now a professor of gastroenterology who's just come back from California to join Peter Morris.

434
00:58:15,630 --> 00:58:21,300
Right. And it has some collaborative work on the um.

435
00:58:21,300 --> 00:58:37,850
And um, uh. She do any collaborative work with Richard Boyd that Richard is always a good sounding personality,

436
00:58:37,850 --> 00:58:44,690
but, um, doing projects in coeliac disease and the small intestine, uh, that's nice.

437
00:58:44,690 --> 00:58:50,540
This guy was an anatomy that is really gosh, I didn't realise that's not what I asked Richard.

438
00:58:50,540 --> 00:58:59,750
And I know quite well right now, he's a good guy. Um, and then the subject was developing all the time.

439
00:58:59,750 --> 00:59:07,490
And do you feel that they've, uh, can you confidently say what is the pathogenesis of ulcerative colitis, Tom?

440
00:59:07,490 --> 00:59:12,360
Crohn's disease. Um, what we can tell you what we think.

441
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:21,690
Well, pathogenesis. And how confident are you? Well, we know, um, that genes play a major role.

442
00:59:21,690 --> 00:59:33,740
Um, they may they almost certainly provide susceptibility, which underlies this familial instance of diseases.

443
00:59:33,740 --> 00:59:42,890
And, uh, I think there is absolutely no doubt they, um, do influence the natural history that the disease,

444
00:59:42,890 --> 00:59:51,050
um, which patients are going to get extra intestinal manifestations, which patients can run a severe course?

445
00:59:51,050 --> 01:00:02,150
Um, and, uh, I think in terms of polygenic disease, because the way, uh, you know,

446
01:00:02,150 --> 01:00:19,940
one hundred sixty three um um, genetic associations, um um that says is shared between U.S. and French disease.

447
01:00:19,940 --> 01:00:26,550
Um, the. That this disease specific, so that begins to make sense,

448
01:00:26,550 --> 01:00:42,450
but the fact that sometimes the diseases are so severe and yet classically said different, um, we know the environment plays a major role.

449
01:00:42,450 --> 01:00:54,360
There's a wonderful study, um, two years ago from Denmark showing quite unequivocally, um, that in the first two years of life,

450
01:00:54,360 --> 01:01:06,480
if you have multiple courses on antibiotics, you have something like a 12 fold increase in risk of developing the disease during their lifetime.

451
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:11,800
If you have just a single, um.

452
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:23,630
Exposure to an antibiotic, many of the sort of penicillin, uh, flu toxin and cephalosporin group, not the nature of the days, I was, um.

453
01:01:23,630 --> 01:01:30,100
Then again, you've got a five, six fold increase, so eventually my.

454
01:01:30,100 --> 01:01:41,420
It's the hygiene hypothesis that's been around in Crohn's disease for a long time, um, and if you grow up in a very clean environment,

455
01:01:41,420 --> 01:01:50,180
um, then you're much more likely to develop the disease than if you grow up in the in the gutters.

456
01:01:50,180 --> 01:01:55,030
So I think trying to get into the system early in life.

457
01:01:55,030 --> 01:02:02,840
By these environmental factors, it's very important. You've got the genetic soil.

458
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:09,980
Um, so that's against and then there are bacteria and, um,

459
01:02:09,980 --> 01:02:17,990
is becoming the microbiome in relation to you, synchronises is the growing area of research.

460
01:02:17,990 --> 01:02:28,010
Yes, yes. Because I was thinking that the disease must affect the flora, but the flora early on may or may not affect the disease here.

461
01:02:28,010 --> 01:02:32,320
Yeah, yeah. It's a chicken and egg situation.

462
01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:41,630
And, uh. And how much is treatment? Improved treatment has, uh, um, change has little recognition.

463
01:02:41,630 --> 01:02:47,030
I mean, I grew up as a young researcher and gastroenterology.

464
01:02:47,030 --> 01:02:53,970
We had steroids and we had SASE selective high.

465
01:02:53,970 --> 01:03:04,590
Um. Service housing is another, um, is a service like link to yourself,

466
01:03:04,590 --> 01:03:18,250
security has a lot of side effects and it is certainly true that here was a young Bangladeshi research fellow called Azad Carr.

467
01:03:18,250 --> 01:03:25,690
Um, that showed that it was a celestial light that was causing the benefit and not so,

468
01:03:25,690 --> 01:03:33,660
um, and so the whole pharmaceutical industry got busy trying to.

469
01:03:33,660 --> 01:03:42,220
Get the five of money, salicylic acid, um, down into the kettle without proper absorption.

470
01:03:42,220 --> 01:03:51,000
Uh, and so there are lots of tricks to link to this page linking the the salicylate

471
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:55,140
molecule to itself or to the mind of acid and all of these been attempted.

472
01:03:55,140 --> 01:04:07,580
So that's, um. Changed very considerably because the fundamental salicylic acid drugs used in Saluzzi.

473
01:04:07,580 --> 01:04:20,340
Um. Are relatively non-toxic. You can get big doses and really for love, just colitis and even more interesting,

474
01:04:20,340 --> 01:04:27,480
certainly in the states, um, Chitose, Wisconsin is not first First-line treatment yet.

475
01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:36,220
So that's changed a lot. Um, in the.

476
01:04:36,220 --> 01:04:50,440
Mid 60s as a friend had come in again, mainly for Ducos and, um, but there were a few cases reported of hostage crisis,

477
01:04:50,440 --> 01:05:03,130
responsive customers, very small studies from the states and Sydney instituted a big trial of basis upon which I ran for, um.

478
01:05:03,130 --> 01:05:10,280
Induction information and then maintenance on it was quite clear it didn't do very much in the first three months,

479
01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:14,650
I mean, I know that it takes three months to start to work.

480
01:05:14,650 --> 01:05:20,110
Um, but it was effective in the long term. So.

481
01:05:20,110 --> 01:05:27,610
In the latest clinical trials, the latest drug test, you will find the.

482
01:05:27,610 --> 01:05:34,210
Says he 40 50 percent of patients have been on the premises of a widely used truck,

483
01:05:34,210 --> 01:05:41,200
and then, of course, the other big change is being the biologics, the ATF agents.

484
01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:46,220
Um, and they made an enormous difference. Uh.

485
01:05:46,220 --> 01:05:58,140
Intent on the. Passions have long term benefits, so and there are lots of new compounds in them, has all this reduced the amount of surgery?

486
01:05:58,140 --> 01:06:08,820
Yes, good. Um, now it has reduced the amount, I think it would be fair to say, the last three years.

487
01:06:08,820 --> 01:06:13,000
Right. Um, in terms of the. Yeah.

488
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:18,960
Uh, um. Uh.

489
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:30,060
You know, using these powerful vacations we learnt to take because cheating is really the goal of therapy,

490
01:06:30,060 --> 01:06:36,820
because that is associated with longer periods of repression than if you use.

491
01:06:36,820 --> 01:06:43,700
Centonze. You mentioned the hundred and thirty genes.

492
01:06:43,700 --> 01:06:48,370
No, I'm sure you know where they are, but do you know what they do, what they code for?

493
01:06:48,370 --> 01:06:53,230
Um, not a lot of, um, we know that name.

494
01:06:53,230 --> 01:06:56,100
And, um, and you've always got this.

495
01:06:56,100 --> 01:07:05,760
Even with the latest, um, genome wide association studies, you still have a problem of whether the gene that you've,

496
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:15,120
um, identified is the gene of interest or whether it's an individual with a very close neighbour.

497
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:24,990
Yeah. Um, but the genes of these hundred and sixty three, um, genetic mutations,

498
01:07:24,990 --> 01:07:33,350
they fall into some very aggressive cancers like adaptive immunity, the HLA.

499
01:07:33,350 --> 01:07:47,780
Um, James, innate ability and, um, various function potentially for free, you see, um, um, autophagy, uh, and immune regulation.

500
01:07:47,780 --> 01:07:57,280
Uh, great. So, you know, there are some, um, things it's a very much story building up.

501
01:07:57,280 --> 01:08:07,580
Yeah. No, don't be modest about this. We're with Oxford, Sydney and the rest of the World Centre for Inflammatory Bowel Disease.

502
01:08:07,580 --> 01:08:15,240
Um, well, certainly in Sydney's day, it was an internationally recognised centre.

503
01:08:15,240 --> 01:08:21,830
Um, um, and it's not for me to say, but I think we maintained.

504
01:08:21,830 --> 01:08:27,200
Yes. On the surface where the other big centres, really big centres.

505
01:08:27,200 --> 01:08:37,560
Um. In the U.K., um.

506
01:08:37,560 --> 01:08:53,700
And this time there were no really big sense. So Marks, for example, in London, Leeds is, um, mainly surgical, but the medical as well, um, and.

507
01:08:53,700 --> 01:09:03,110
Perhaps, but, um. Well, that was mainly coeliac disease and malabsorption.

508
01:09:03,110 --> 01:09:21,980
Rather than I yes, the big IPD clinic, um, um, uh, Cheryl Cook was was Professor Gates and his main interest was in Malabsorption, uh, his project.

509
01:09:21,980 --> 01:09:26,620
But that was the same age as me that we grew up together.

510
01:09:26,620 --> 01:09:40,040
But we had a big identity and and, um, and then of course Guy I did the surgery, um, and then I was also very big.

511
01:09:40,040 --> 01:09:47,120
Um, um, so these were the key senses, maybe Edinborough.

512
01:09:47,120 --> 01:10:01,160
But the states of Australia and the UK declined to, um, Fanfan Panopto, so which which is, um, Edinburgh is still strong.

513
01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:12,950
Box is. A shadow of its former self who's still has a big IBT presence, um, in the States,

514
01:10:12,950 --> 01:10:21,020
there's concern and New York, um, Chicago, um, the Cleveland Clinic,

515
01:10:21,020 --> 01:10:42,550
um, and, uh, North Carolina, Chapel Hill, um, big centres in Canada, like Toronto, um, and then mean that Europe has been really in the forefront.

516
01:10:42,550 --> 01:10:52,600
The friendship is very strong, mainly in Paris, but they have a wonderful, um, I pronounce it in French,

517
01:10:52,600 --> 01:11:05,190
but the initials of Jeté G.T. and, um, and it's a group for the study of, um.

518
01:11:05,190 --> 01:11:16,590
In fact, she addressed the soldiers and they that's wonderful for clinical trials, um, the Germans have become really very strong.

519
01:11:16,590 --> 01:11:23,910
So, yeah, uh, it's it's it's really centres around the world.

520
01:11:23,910 --> 01:11:29,190
Did you ever feel you'd like to do a sabbatical period with one of those?

521
01:11:29,190 --> 01:11:35,130
Yes. It's a big image as they it.

522
01:11:35,130 --> 01:11:39,300
Yeah. Because you would have had a lot going on here all the time. I realise that.

523
01:11:39,300 --> 01:11:44,460
But it would have been fun. Yes. But I did have so many sabbaticals.

524
01:11:44,460 --> 01:11:57,240
Um, this thing in Australia, um, called Bushra Lectureship, um which I was giving them, that meant we were in Australia for about six weeks.

525
01:11:57,240 --> 01:12:08,190
Um and then I did a visiting professor at the Alfred Hospital in Melbourne and another four weeks, a different time in Adelaide.

526
01:12:08,190 --> 01:12:20,220
And you know, that was four weeks without any fixed clinical comment is gave it time to be catching up, um, beating up,

527
01:12:20,220 --> 01:12:30,020
going through manuscripts, um, through the latest thesis written by somebody in the unit who could speak English.

528
01:12:30,020 --> 01:12:37,350
And so this was a very nice reading. Is it because you were doing general medicine to take.

529
01:12:37,350 --> 01:12:45,570
Yes. When did you stop other than that. Um, two thousand years.

530
01:12:45,570 --> 01:12:55,410
And what made you stop? Um. It was about what I think it was nineteen ninety nine,

531
01:12:55,410 --> 01:13:03,990
I became vice president of the Society of Gastroenterology and then going on to a presidential year two years later.

532
01:13:03,990 --> 01:13:13,210
Um, I'd like to go to the, uh, I was also at the same time chairing the.

533
01:13:13,210 --> 01:13:24,980
So. Section of an enquiry which the MRC is set up, um, and that meant frequent trips to London.

534
01:13:24,980 --> 01:13:28,650
What was that? And so that's why. That's fine.

535
01:13:28,650 --> 01:13:29,720
That's fine. Yeah.

536
01:13:29,720 --> 01:13:44,630
And everybody was very happy for me to give up, but they ended up near the embassy enquiry and, um, uh, was all about autism and the MMR vaccine.

537
01:13:44,630 --> 01:13:45,650
All right.

538
01:13:45,650 --> 01:13:58,440
Uh, and the Department of Health had got very worried about the drop off in these vaccination, he said, and told us he ACLC to set up an enquiry.

539
01:13:58,440 --> 01:14:13,900
Yes. And I was asked to chair the subgroup on, um, um, the gut because there was a story that, um, the measles vaccine caused.

540
01:14:13,900 --> 01:14:25,420
The kid is. Information that's a up in this case is all about, um, uh, it's, uh,

541
01:14:25,420 --> 01:14:32,750
the person involved and bothered to go back and see what the earliest I can get healthy.

542
01:14:32,750 --> 01:14:37,950
Other kids, which has more information, is, um.

543
01:14:37,950 --> 01:14:45,190
Nordhausen. Afterwards, it was a real tragedy.

544
01:14:45,190 --> 01:14:49,750
Yes. Yes. And then, uh, now you mentioned the textbook way back.

545
01:14:49,750 --> 01:14:56,710
Did that continue? No, it finished with the second edition.

546
01:14:56,710 --> 01:15:10,650
Um. And I think largely because a very, very big American text came out in two volumes, um.

547
01:15:10,650 --> 01:15:20,000
And then there was another tax bill coming out, I think, that was decided in Sydney, which they didn't want to get into.

548
01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:30,100
So you were probably but, um, I published a book with How Thomas.

549
01:15:30,100 --> 01:15:41,180
On immunology, the GI tract, and, uh, during the three days we did produce that as a as a second addition I had.

550
01:15:41,180 --> 01:15:48,300
Um, and then we did another book, um.

551
01:15:48,300 --> 01:15:55,790
Um. We did it with a man.

552
01:15:55,790 --> 01:16:08,770
I'm like, OK, well. Uh. Uh, how to do what was called but entrance into the second edition, so, you know, there were there were books around.

553
01:16:08,770 --> 01:16:16,970
I was very pleased not to be taking a general tax because it had to change to multiverses.

554
01:16:16,970 --> 01:16:20,810
But you would have contributed to the Oxford Dictionary. Yeah.

555
01:16:20,810 --> 01:16:32,420
What did you do that the encounter about the horror of the guys and the coeliac chapter and the U.S. trade.

556
01:16:32,420 --> 01:16:40,850
And then I think I did that for. Um, for Ed. Yeah, and then.

557
01:16:40,850 --> 01:16:50,120
The first one. I decided that I should reduce it to somebody else, and they they asked me to do the U.S. chapter.

558
01:16:50,120 --> 01:16:58,580
Yes. Um, but I'm not doing anything awful. Uh, and you would have had your name on all 300 papers, so.

559
01:16:58,580 --> 01:17:03,380
Yes, there were 400, you know, that kind of thing.

560
01:17:03,380 --> 01:17:06,560
Now, final, very difficult years ago.

561
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:21,300
I always remember Cindy coming back, um, from visiting as a unit as possible and then an see exercise, reviewing that unit's.

562
01:17:21,300 --> 01:17:27,490
And he wrote in his report the most damning statement, he said.

563
01:17:27,490 --> 01:17:40,250
I saw evidence of a lot of. Activity, I wasn't sure how much research has been done, and he was a very methodical man, I would guess.

564
01:17:40,250 --> 01:17:52,560
Yes, yes, yes. He didn't like. Just chilling out of potboilers had to be some focus on the findings is now a

565
01:17:52,560 --> 01:17:56,650
difficult question because we all know that things get worse as we get older.

566
01:17:56,650 --> 01:18:04,640
But how do you feel the NHS trajectory has run since the 1970s?

567
01:18:04,640 --> 01:18:17,720
Um. But I was always a nonpolitician.

568
01:18:17,720 --> 01:18:26,410
I had too much to do. No, um. I didn't enjoy sitting on that hospital.

569
01:18:26,410 --> 01:18:31,930
This is still a little bit, but I avoided it as much as possible.

570
01:18:31,930 --> 01:18:38,810
Um. And. I'm going to sit.

571
01:18:38,810 --> 01:18:47,270
Patient care, in many ways has been transformed. Because we've got so many new treatments, we're going to send a new diagnostic techniques,

572
01:18:47,270 --> 01:18:52,820
um, which don't which become more rather than less pleasant.

573
01:18:52,820 --> 01:18:59,950
Um, and. I think.

574
01:18:59,950 --> 01:19:02,180
One doesn't like.

575
01:19:02,180 --> 01:19:13,450
The Break-Up of the old firm structure and the ship's system changes according to the working time directive, and that really has been a disaster.

576
01:19:13,450 --> 01:19:20,180
And I know for the last year or so in general, we do oppose.

577
01:19:20,180 --> 01:19:31,050
Right. And sometimes, um, none of the genius attorneys seemed impassioned because the ones who come from office might have been a bit of a hand.

578
01:19:31,050 --> 01:19:38,110
Uh. If he had 20 acute patients in overnight.

579
01:19:38,110 --> 01:19:42,100
Perhaps more sometimes a new reaction focus on.

580
01:19:42,100 --> 01:19:47,780
Yeah, you know, yeah, so.

581
01:19:47,780 --> 01:20:00,900
That's his. That's been a big difference, um, and, you know, the responsibilities of consulting staff home now to keep them safe,

582
01:20:00,900 --> 01:20:05,490
where it's really a consulting service, I think, uh.

583
01:20:05,490 --> 01:20:10,910
Very demanding because. But I suppose this a specialist.

584
01:20:10,910 --> 01:20:16,040
And you feel that you're sort of on top of the game within your speciality,

585
01:20:16,040 --> 01:20:25,520
you then rapidly realise you're not on top of the game in the latest in cardiology or professional or whatever.

586
01:20:25,520 --> 01:20:34,810
So I think the responsibility of the senior staff is actually increased monumentally under this shifting centre to me underneath the.

587
01:20:34,810 --> 01:20:42,840
Um. Miss. So they still take on that responsibility.

588
01:20:42,840 --> 01:20:51,060
Um. So I have a student teaching, I think this has.

589
01:20:51,060 --> 01:20:55,650
Um, the students are still very bright and they adapt to the system that they've got,

590
01:20:55,650 --> 01:21:03,240
so they still produce some very good PENNICOTT options, some very good academic.

591
01:21:03,240 --> 01:21:12,580
Um. But that the lack of continuity in the first is not good for teaching.

592
01:21:12,580 --> 01:21:21,600
And you were referring to the practical procedures. You did as alert as they were and they wouldn't be allowed to do that.

593
01:21:21,600 --> 01:21:34,580
And of course, they do have all these simulated models. But, um, so they they practise the function of elitism, um, picking up chips and so on.

594
01:21:34,580 --> 01:21:42,160
On all the multiples. Um, so maybe that's a good thing.

595
01:21:42,160 --> 01:21:57,020
I was recalling. Um, just earlier this week of something somebody would say, I mean, really struggling with putting in, um, you Rachel Casitas.

596
01:21:57,020 --> 01:22:02,690
I was a first year 10 student. Um.

597
01:22:02,690 --> 01:22:13,200
I just shudder to think the discomfort of these poor chaps had, so I think this may be the same in some ways, but there are lots of students nowadays.

598
01:22:13,200 --> 01:22:19,250
Um, their exposure to clinical medicine is not what we had.

599
01:22:19,250 --> 01:22:28,370
Um, and they don't have the opportunity to practise the skills and so that they can of has uh uh,

600
01:22:28,370 --> 01:22:32,990
it's, uh, it's a whole change in culture that it will get back.

601
01:22:32,990 --> 01:22:42,610
Um, but but I think it's, um. They don't have the.

602
01:22:42,610 --> 01:22:50,480
I don't think they have the teaching, that first hand experience that I had.

603
01:22:50,480 --> 01:22:59,200
Did you have any experience of interference with your clinical practise from management administration?

604
01:22:59,200 --> 01:23:09,830
Um, not much. I think because I was in the report, just got out and did it on.

605
01:23:09,830 --> 01:23:17,600
Great, that's been a wonderful interview. Now, anything else you'd like to say yourself, throw into the pot?

606
01:23:17,600 --> 01:23:21,720
I don't think so. I think.

607
01:23:21,720 --> 01:23:35,030
But what I find very exciting is that, as I said, I said at the beginning, when I came back here in a senior capacity, I had to start a lot of fresh.

608
01:23:35,030 --> 01:23:43,450
Um, which was down here on the west side, I think that that's what I think, that office adjacent to the.

609
01:23:43,450 --> 01:23:56,960
Um. And then, of course, the actress and family finally exposed, and that was about the last person still still down here.

610
01:23:56,960 --> 01:24:07,190
Um. And that was a very weird experience, because sometimes you'd have to go up to the front desk,

611
01:24:07,190 --> 01:24:15,500
the infirmary, to collect something or deliver something, and you walk up and down that main corridor.

612
01:24:15,500 --> 01:24:26,330
Even entirely by his side, and the extraordinary thing was a series of awards disappeared out of the church.

613
01:24:26,330 --> 01:24:33,510
All the wars without his. And when there was no activity.

614
01:24:33,510 --> 01:24:42,140
The silence in the main character was extraordinary, and you never realised how nice it was until all the world shut down.

615
01:24:42,140 --> 01:24:57,300
Uh, and then when you were by yourself in this very long, um, quiet corridor, it was really quite spooky with the cockroach running around, you know.

616
01:24:57,300 --> 01:25:03,310
So then what was going to happen to academic gastroenterology?

617
01:25:03,310 --> 01:25:11,800
Um, but when I was retiring, I was about two years before I retired from the universe,

618
01:25:11,800 --> 01:25:19,540
from the NHS, so, um, four years before retiring the university sessions.

619
01:25:19,540 --> 01:25:21,420
I wrote a paper.

620
01:25:21,420 --> 01:25:34,830
On the academic gastroenterology outlining what the city had achieved and what we have done, yes, um, and saying that they really ought to be.

621
01:25:34,830 --> 01:25:44,560
A professor of gastroenterology to maintain. The academic interest is and that went about all sorts of university committees,

622
01:25:44,560 --> 01:25:54,410
but it was finally agreed and good and, um, they tried hard to appoint.

623
01:25:54,410 --> 01:26:13,050
And. She was appointed a coalition, which was not a.

624
01:26:13,050 --> 01:26:20,600
But a first rate, because given mortgages in a five star on the international stage.

625
01:26:20,600 --> 01:26:39,770
And, um. So that that was really exciting and, uh.

626
01:26:39,770 --> 01:26:44,830
The name of our. Which is at the John Radcliffe instead of.

627
01:26:44,830 --> 01:26:50,980
Right. That plus the offensive of the.

628
01:26:50,980 --> 01:26:59,400
Biomedical research. Um, yeah, um, as that academic gastroenterology to.

629
01:26:59,400 --> 01:27:05,520
Um, transform itself into a major of, um.

630
01:27:05,520 --> 01:27:11,470
So CNN has two senior lecturers, one is a gastro.

631
01:27:11,470 --> 01:27:20,920
Well, Alison is gastroenterologist does two sessions of clinical work week and then husband work is a paediatrician.

632
01:27:20,920 --> 01:27:25,650
He does two sessions with the rest of their time.

633
01:27:25,650 --> 01:27:35,520
It's in research, it's a very strong unit, and, um, so that's really very exciting to to, um.

634
01:27:35,520 --> 01:27:43,830
Certainly see a Phoenix rise and you would have been succeeded by one of the two energise people.

635
01:27:43,830 --> 01:27:52,160
Uh. The whole we've got lots of gastroenterologists now, but I mean,

636
01:27:52,160 --> 01:28:02,630
Shannon Travis was here when I retired, um, they appointed, um, Sateesh Keshav, who was.

637
01:28:02,630 --> 01:28:09,830
He said, South Africa, it is difficult to set, um.

638
01:28:09,830 --> 01:28:20,910
And then they got. And that is a young Australian gastroenterologist, they just made an excellent appointment in James E,

639
01:28:20,910 --> 01:28:26,020
who who is a sort of professional and person with an academic bent.

640
01:28:26,020 --> 01:28:34,230
Um, um, and the and the Riverside Scurrah says that, um, you know, it's, uh.

641
01:28:34,230 --> 01:28:42,270
And the. About some point, another to consult.

642
01:28:42,270 --> 01:28:49,820
It's yes, and did you ever think of trying to work in the I am in the black box?

643
01:28:49,820 --> 01:29:01,150
Um. I didn't see any minute and I just wondered, you know, how that fitted into the whole picture.

644
01:29:01,150 --> 01:29:11,910
I mean, we did. We were often. Um, do you think that you had some very creative work on, um.

645
01:29:11,910 --> 01:29:23,190
In collaboration with a chemist working with Adriene Hill, went to, um, Andrew and Michael, we lived next door to each other.

646
01:29:23,190 --> 01:29:29,820
So so number of years, um, Kiki was wonderful and bouncing ideas or suggestions.

647
01:29:29,820 --> 01:29:34,350
Yeah. It's just it's, um, uh, William Rose.

648
01:29:34,350 --> 01:29:46,240
And that was a student of ours. And he worked, uh, many supervised by John Bell, if we had enough and you know, what was in the eye and a lot.

649
01:29:46,240 --> 01:29:58,050
That it was very. In some ways, inconvenient, cutting that out of the main office down here with patients in the jail.

650
01:29:58,050 --> 01:30:04,270
It actually was a godsend for research sessions.

651
01:30:04,270 --> 01:30:12,040
I had I used to be full time down here on Monday and Wednesday.

652
01:30:12,040 --> 01:30:17,390
And. Because she could have had to pass the jail on the way ahead.

653
01:30:17,390 --> 01:30:22,580
Mm hmm. Yes, Ted, um, good stuff.

654
01:30:22,580 --> 01:30:35,310
Good to see. Keep patients, Constance. But it meant for most of them, Monday, Wednesday, he will not travel back in time to stay for.

655
01:30:35,310 --> 01:30:41,330
Yeah, yeah, um, that's what I'm waiting for other people.

656
01:30:41,330 --> 01:30:47,630
So actually, it turned out that the geographical separations was actually beneficial.

657
01:30:47,630 --> 01:30:52,070
You must be very proud of all that. And thank you very much for the interview.

658
01:30:52,070 --> 01:30:55,680
You said what you want. Yes. A lovely many, many thanks.

659
01:30:55,680 --> 01:31:00,650
Cheers. Still running the.

660
01:31:00,650 --> 01:31:01,595
It's got a plan.