This is Susan Baj interviewing Ryan on November the 18th, 20 twenty.
Good morning, Terrence. Good morning, sir. Very nice to speak to you.
Pleasure. So we're going to talk for about an hour.
And I think the first thing is to find out how you ended up in Oxford studying medicine.
So perhaps you can tell me why you chose to become a doctor. Well, thank you for that question.
It happened because I had a rather strong mother who was always a great believer in predicting what I was going to do.
And at the age of four, I made medicines for her horses out of white washing nettles.
And from that time on, she said, Terrance is going to be a doctor. And that was so it never altered.
I was always going to be a doctor. You had a slightly difficult schooling, didn't you?
Terrible. Well, this is what time my mother, who had run away into the Army in the First World War,
was called up as early as 1937 to help recruit women into driving.
And she became one of the first wives. My father joined the show at Forester's.
As a result of that, he became a prisoner eventually in Germany, as a result of that, I went to many different schools.
And that really had a terrible education. And eventually.
When trying to take an entrance, I was labelled as educationally subnormal.
This resulted in all sorts of things like going to special schools and.
Those special schools couldn't actually provide me with anything relating to medicine.
And there came a point when. I'd failed.
I think maths or something, and the whole question of how would I get to Oxford, which is what it was the plan of my mother.
And so wait a minute. Your mother must have realised you were not educationally subnormal.
Oh, yes, I wouldn't, except the person who made the diagnosis, I was a bright little boy.
Yeah, it was there was problems with dyslexia. I suppose it would be later on now, would it?
Yes, I went to a school which was the first to use typewriters,
although I didn't use a typewriter and later became well known as a well-known school for dyslexia.
And certainly I I know that I have features of dyslexia, but if I'm asked to explain exactly what is wrong with me, I find that very difficult.
Yes, yes, but I still have I still have some problems which could be labelled as dyslexia.
Yeah. So your mother, your pushy mother, then how did you get to Oxford?
Well, the special school I went to was run by a pair of headmasters, one of whom was a Wimbledon tennis player.
And played with the head of one of the coaches was the college, the famous master, J.C. Masterman, who was also head of MI5.
And or something like that at one time, and it took me to a tennis competition in Oxford.
And I was interviewed briefly by this famous in Masterman.
Ten years later, I was told by the senior tutor was to college that that he took pity on me.
He must have done because he said I could come visit.
I got sort of physics, chemistry and biology.
And so I went to Crown is in London for a whole year.
Failed physics four times, but eventually got in. I managed to get my biology first time and chemistry second time,
but it was a pretty fearsome time having got those out and having done a rather good
entrance paper to the college entitled Music is the Most aethereal of the Arts.
I did take pity on me and allowed me to come in. That's why I just pick you up.
Not because music is another part of your expertise, isn't it, Terence?
When did you start playing the piano? Oh, I started playing tennis at nine, I didn't really get going until I was given.
Some really good tuition about the age of 14, and then I took it seriously, right.
In October, the music was more important to me, really, than looking for exams.
But I had a very good time musically and also had a lot of musical friends.
Yes. So what were your first impressions of Oxford as a student?
Oh, a wonderful, interesting place, but I remember I was put into an annexe of the college.
Which was a sort of garage, I couldn't find it, so I went up to a very senior looking man who was actually the senior lawman.
And so where is this place, is it? Haven't you got any initiative?
Boy, that was slightly frightening. We'll have to find this place on my own, but eventually found where I was going to stay.
And I enjoyed was to college, and they did take pity on me, but I didn't do very well.
I failed every single exam at least once.
And went on doing so even when I went to the Vatican firm, which I went to rather than London,
because my tutor thought, well, he's going to struggle in this important place like cities.
And guys, let's go to this little hospital in Oxford and see how he does there.
So this was the Radcliffe Infirmary failed. This was the infirmary.
So the medicine in those days was very much preclinical, wasn't it?
And then you'd move on to do your clinical. That's what most people did. And the entrance of eight in my in my ear.
And so it's a very good time to be there because in fact, we were clerks rather than students and we had a very good time learning medicine.
And I didn't fail my finals. Brilliant and inspirational teachers at that stage, parents who were the clinicians that would have been teaching you.
There were a lot of really quite good people.
The point really was that I soon became president of the House and I was involved in four pantomimes there's known better for.
I don't know. Not for medicine, I think. And indeed, once when I think I was picked up by the best job, I was.
So Judge Pickering, these the new readers, professor. And I was chosen to be his housemen.
So what are we talking about, terms if we just just give a timeline here?
When did you arrive at the right time, me to do your clinical studies? Fifty three hundred fifty fifty three, OK, it's.
And. And as I said, I spent a lot of time doing things like Tantric.
A lot for them and the president of the House and so on.
And George Prickling much later. Had to give me a reference, he didn't mention medicine at all.
He just said it was a good job, really. So I think that's why I got his job.
So were you on stage in Kendrick? Oh, yes, three times, and then I was a pianist, one one at one stage, so I wrote it, of course, one year.
I'm very good, Terance now. So those were good times as a student?
Yes. Yes, they were. There was trouble because there were so few of us.
And indeed, as president, I had to support everything. I found myself playing rugby against Cardiff, against and Georges,
and I'd never played anything except soccer before that all those little things, I was a bit of good.
So then you moved on to just jobs and you had the Pickering horse job, which must have been a top job.
That was that was an interesting job because he was an interesting man.
And as a result of that. I was invited to be with one of my nephews, a fairly senior associate here, nose and throat surgeon.
Yes. And with him. Being with him resulted in the fact that when I had to do it, then do my national service because I hadn't done it before.
He knew the head of the Army Medical Corps, who was also an international flight surgeon.
And I was immediately given a consulting post,
although I'd only done six months of surgery and his surgery was given the consulting post and in Colchester,
receiving all the evacuations from the British army of the Rhine and also being a pioneer in doing for the army civilian work.
So I did about 200 tonsillectomies and about 200 in those operations.
Gracious. I didn't really touch the ear. And then I'd said that I was interested in dermatology.
So I said, Oh, you better be our dermatologist. So I became a consultant dermatologist that went in the army.
That was the stage. They hadn't even got steroids. It's still got the old fashioned in arsenic and things like that.
And I had my own pharmacist and I received from the British army of the Rhine and also from the local army prison.
A lot of patients, a lot of people. And I had a lot of work, but I realised that I wasn't really doing I wasn't really experienced in the army.
So I joined in the early mornings being M0 to a I think it was a signal regiment and that was quite interesting,
disguising one's own tent as it was playing playing soldiers.
But at the same time,
I also helped run the Garrison Theatre and we entered the British Draw British Drama League elitist competitions and competitions,
and we won first on one the second time and eventually got to the semi-finals.
I was in it. So that was quite fun to watch, to go back to the dermatology.
Had you met somebody as a student who had inspired you, why me?
Yes, that was important because Alex Carlton was the dermatologist now as Carlton was a famous anatomist.
So everybody mesilla in anatomy. And she was very frightening, very witty, quite cruel to the girls, like the boys.
But when it was known it so happened that my father met her brother and she knew I was coming to do damage to the dermatology clinic as a student,
and because my fellow students know three others knew that she knew me.
I was pushed ahead. And if I read up dermatology, I probably knew it better than any other subject.
By the time I went to the clinic, that's really hard. Became a dermatologist.
If you got it wrong with her, she would hit you. And if one of her female colleagues tipped you off with the right answer, she would hit her as well.
So it was quite an exciting time, no non-approved educational method anymore.
So that didn't put you off dermatologic. No, let me be a dermatologist.
Yeah, and then those animatronic because and I told Wendy because at one point that I was interested totally because I thought
it was at least specialised with special allergies and he thought it was rather good and put into one of his lectures,
which is published in the BMJ that wanted to be a dermatologist.
So I had to be a dermatologist. OK, so you've done your costumes, you've done your stint with the Army.
Let your EMT skills. I must say, I remember your EMT skills when I worked with you.
You used to be able to manoeuvre one of those mirror things that you put on.
Yes. They ended up just, I suspect, who I used to I used to move the wax and all my colleagues.
Yes. Did you want something that to defeat the model?
And then you mentioned this little hurdle of membership. Well, I'd failed lots of exams going up to medicine except the finals,
and once I started having to have members because everybody knew you had to have met,
you can be a dermatologist, really, because you was that the chief advisers,
one of whom was England, and another was common knowledge that he's got to have membership.
And so I started taking membership and I found it very difficult, and I think it was probably because I didn't really know how to learn.
Something to my dyslexia, too, because I used to. Look at all of some people or something and give it the wrong name.
Yeah, wrong names kept on turning up in membership, which didn't help.
So I eventually took that 11 times. Oh, that must be a record is a recognised thing.
I should think it's quite expensive as well, Terrance. It was expensive, but it took me up to Edinburgh and all the other places as well.
Yes, it was a struggle and very depressing.
At the same time, I was being successful as a young registrar, dermatologist and very good everybody from the various things I was publishing.
So yes, what I was going to be a dermatologist. Very good to show you.
If I could get membership, say you finally passed your membership and then I think you spent time in London.
Well, before that, I had done I published one or two quite good papers which were thought to be lateral thinking,
oh, this is the direct result of a real interest in the blood supply of the skin.
That is because I had in my hand an empty instrument called jobs in Holland, which took wax out of the ears.
Yes, I pressed it on the skin and sure saw it in dentist.
And I looked at the indentation under a microscope and saw that in the end I could see the blood vessels much better than normal.
And so I began to describe what I saw and became the authority on the anatomy vasculature of
the skin very quickly because people weren't interested in the blood supply at that time,
not really being a physiologist called Thomas and.
There's been a bit of physiology, but they haven't really been any dermatologist,
just that it's that when you wrote your paper on the direction of growth of the epidermis,
I wrote this because I just thought that it was peculiar that epidermis was said to be migrating outwards.
When I was interested in blood, I knew that everything migrated to blood supply at.
And I said that the Rentech is what you want to give a paper on it. So I gave a paper on it and had stunned silence.
And eventually I published it and.
Five years later, probably the most important damage of pathologists in America wrote a paper on Ron's theory saying it was wrong.
But nevertheless, everybody was very pleased that this very important dermatologist and thought it was important.
And I continued to write papers corresponding with Pincus that did help my reputation.
Very good. But. After being registar, we've then seen a registrar, he became president of the body.
We had the meeting of the body in Oxford, which.
I moulders took over the organisation. Hmm.
And so I helped him with his setting up the British Association of Dermatology meeting,
I took over the playhouse, which is the local small theatre, and I presented one afternoon.
A long session on the blood supply of the skin, right, and I also set up I managed to borrow about 10.
Long distance microscopes and they've set up on the Saturday morning session whereby you looked at the blood supply of the skin in different diseases.
And so even as a registrar, I was well known and thought to be competing with Newcastle others, so I'm just a very good, very good.
So you did spend time in in St. John's, I think, did you?
Well, yes. It was decided that I should have a vascular laboratory and be a lecturer.
And I had this laboratory of an Homerton next door to Magnus, who was the field biologist next door to the electron microscope.
And Charles Golman organised for some quite senior people to come and be my colleagues, running that it makes investiture and.
I had the. Professor of dermatology from the Lebanon, and I have one too young goodness Americans.
Yes, this is amazing. Almost a trainee.
And then you came back to Oxford as a consultant in 1971, I think.
Yes, that's right. That sort of notion that I was going to get the job,
but there were others competing right people and the sort of questions I got, I got asked by Dalberg.
Who do you think is the most important William Byrd?
Or Monteverdi. Oh, my goodness. Those are some of the questions I got him.
Very good. And I was appointed. So what was Oxford like in 1971 as a new consultant?
Oh, very good, and of course, I had one because there were only two of us that had one because it's a very well known dermatologist as a senior body.
So I was just really learning how to be a consultant from him in those days.
We had lots and lots of beds. This was at the slide at the Slaid.
Indeed. As and had had had 40 beds when they can reduce.
I remember we had and we had when I joined it.
Eventually we got down to 12 beds. Right. And at the state hospital, which is on the ringroad.
Yes. And we had infectious diseases next door to it. We had infectious diseases next door to us.
Yes. Things like leprosy and things used to go there. Yes.
As a as a registrar, Reneg had begun to take an interest in leprosy because the professor of anatomy in Oxford, Guillermo Del.
Had got the first electron microscope and was studying the innovation of the skin and leprosy world,
wanted him to look at the changes in the skin, the anaesthesia, which is characteristic of of leprosy.
And so they it and they began to take biopsies from Nigeria and so on because they didn't work, because they were informed them.
And eventually he needed to have leprosy patients in Oxford.
So we offered him a bed and two beds and eventually got six bed unit built by the National Foundation.
By the time I came back to Oxford, we had this separate unit of leprosy goodness.
And we had employed Colin McDougal, who was a well-known apologist who come from, I think, Singapore at that time.
And we began to take patients who had leprosy and we became important for leprosy because we were the first to show resistance to Daptone,
which is one of the main drugs for leprosy. I mean, the first to show the effectiveness of rifampicin.
It was called into work.
And I was interested in the blood supply from those kids, from the places you got leprosy, and it began to develop a good reputation that was in.
And I think that I may also get used to get the money from Lepra and other organisations, so the research money came from leprosy.
So these patients were coming from elsewhere. They were all outside England.
They'd come they'd come in as immigrants from Uganda.
And when the army was there and they came from the Philippines, there were about 600 cases of leprosy in the in the country at that time.
Goodness. And we would I would Organa I myself would organise seminars quarterly and all
the dozens of famous biologists from around the world and the kochan and so on.
All the big names in leprosy used to come to the seminars so they could experience.
Yes. Yes. Well, there's been a big change in the management of leprosy,
I guess that we later became the the Centre for doing the Studies of Histopathology of Leprosy following a triple therapy.
Yes. And if it hadn't been for us, there wouldn't have been an elimination programme doodle.
But he was also editor of the main journal. Yeah, we were at the Centre for Leprosy.
Very good. Now, what about your links with the physicians in the in the old Rateliff?
It would have been still back then. So you went up to the slide for my blood supply was appropriate and.
I became known for my interest in Lagos at that time, Lagos as well, dealt with my physiotherapist, rheumatologist Nutrition's.
Oh, everybody was doing like ulcers and it was eventually decided that we should take charge.
And that really meant me to take charge of Lagos's.
And I brought in a zoologist from America who was doing at that time a PhD in the surgery department.
That was Djordjevic. Yes, he was a zoologist and he was interested in blood supply.
And for his Ph.D., he worked with me a little bit on the blood supply of skin flaps.
And bringing in George Jerry was a very good move because we began not only to work on legacies, but on wound healing in general.
Yes. And George Cherrix attracted quite a lot of money from the industry.
And that was really the second source of major money for research. And we had wound healing.
And I still am trying to explore how you got on with the other physicians in Oxford.
Did you interact with other physicians, particularly?
Mainly because to begin with, because he had always said that it was very important to show the importance of dermatology to your colleagues.
And he set up a very good relationship. He became chairman of the Medicine Board, as I I did later.
And he was chairman of the medical board. So he had good relationships from administration point of view when he retired,
I suppose it was about six to eight years later following my appointment, 1976.
I think he retired about it. Yes. And then I was in the senior senior man and eventually decided.
That someone who worked with me both in London doing research between London and and Oxford, I had been appointed as dermatologists.
They were in medical school for two years to do a session.
And when I left, I had this person who had worked with me about the doctor.
He took over at the Hammersmith. Yes. Then he went to Stoke.
And I decided that we had such a good relationship and he was such a enthusiastic person on all subjects.
He was not just a single interest, but had many interests that I would like him to come in.
And when he had just retired was a very good idea and went to see what they said, you must come and persuaded him to come to Oxford.
So I had to run as a company. Yes.
And who I'm still. Who else were physicians then? So you'd have had John Ledingham.
Was he around then or. Yes, he was.
You know, John, all that well, I mean, I got to know him much later that I suppose the people I knew were still the people that I'd worked with,
even as a student like Sheila Calendar and John did not.
And all those people that if I wrote papers with them on methotrexate.
Right. Sheila Calendar and John not co-authors on the first paper on folic acid antagonists in this country.
Yes. And why are you still having things to do with Tenge returns then?
Once home, yes. So you thought you saw the medical students, they were still coming through dermatology, weather?
Oh, yes, they were still talking. Yes, definitely.
And I was by that moment, by that time seeing my brother.
Weeks at the vet. Yes.
You became a senior member, so you were very much involved with change back then? Oh, yes, very much so.
Yes, yes. Yes. I think maybe I could really.
Very good. So we've now got a unit with you and with Rodney, and you've still got your wound healing and your leprosy work going on.
You have to get good technicians like Richard Jones.
Yes, germs came as the big man because George needed pics of his skin flaps and Richard Jones came to from the Royal Agricultural College and system,
which it didn't manage very well, and came to us as the technician and grew up and took lots of senior exams, became very,
very good, well qualified technician and eventually became our administrator.
Yes. So tell me about this made what was this made like? Slade was marvellous.
It had a lovely garden. It had single homes, patients loved it.
And the nurses were always extremely good. We had a Mr. Haynes, who was an expert on leg ulcers, and admittedly we it got him an MBA.
But we also had people like Bennettsville, those wonderful nurses, and eventually I became.
Very interesting development in nursing and wound healing. Yes, but some very senior nurses actually, at one point I took on Steven Hayes,
who is a senior nurse already at Oxford, and he introduced me to become a member of the Institute of Nursing.
And I also became on the regional health authorities, nursing representative and so on.
So I am very personally involved with nursing and nurses.
Then began to come to me. Diabetic nurses would come to me and said, look, here we need we're doing diabetes, we're doing lots of research.
Why can't we take university exams and those wound healing and into exams?
There was pressure on those who want to take exams.
And Basil Shepstone and I worked very closely for about 40 years trying to get them into Oxford University,
but they kept on presenting their work, very educational and sociological language and not sufficiently scientific from them.
And so we never got them. But Brooks University took them instead.
And then they took me as well and gave me a title of some books in the nursing department.
That I was the first consultant to have that happen and it caused a bit of a stir,
and I was brought to the office of Henry Harris and told not to use the title, which I didn't for a while until they gave me one result.
So tell me, how did you really get inspired or how did you see the importance of Maxus?
Why was it that you were one of the trailblazers in developing dermatology, nursing, do you think?
Well, by that time, we'd also taken on Lamfalussy to come in after OK,
after my success publications of books and various things on blood vessels, I began to take up Lymphatics as well.
And that led to lymphoedema. And that led us to being asked by patients who had had mastectomies and got lymphoedema of the arm.
It was a mastectomy society to start taking interest.
And I then found that palliative care on the other triclosan had, of course,
a lot of lymphedema for one reason or another and were struggling with it.
But it brought in some really excellent nurses to manage lymphedema, piles of care, and they, too, plastic surgeon, nurses and diabetes,
and then to research nurses, one from pressure ulcers, a major problem in the surgical team all throughout the hospitals.
That is to become a focus for development of research for nursing.
And we've got that link with Brooks as well.
And it was really these contacts with people, nurses who were doing good research and us as the sort of figurehead for research in wound healing,
pressure, ulcers, glycolysis, which led us to be in the fall.
Yes, but we always had to take into account dermatology, nursing.
And we we established a link was in Thomas's there as well.
So had there been a British dermatology nursing group before that?
We started that the British. Yes, British dermatology nursing group.
And well, from that we developed also the International Skin Care Nursing Group, which became affiliated to the International Council of Nursing.
Right. And I got them involved in the Fadima, particularly on the west coast of Africa, where there is a lot of lymphoedema due to filariasis.
They became part of the nursing role in managing lymphoedema worldwide.
I suppose that takes us on then, really to your international work, Terrence, because you've done a lot, haven't you?
Yes, because I've been interested in investing Daniel Wilkinson, who is the most important dermatologist in the Orchard region.
He had written the book, The Best Textbook of Dermatology with Afterwork.
And involve me in several of the chapters, particularly the vascular ones like ulcers and.
And at one stage. Because I think my links with lymphoedema worldwide and lymphatic filariasis, Messing's, we began to.
Interest. Work in international work,
and he had been called onto the International Committee of Dermatology and the
International Committee of Dermatology specialised in setting up world Congresses.
That's all it was interested in. But it was a very competitive thing.
And not only the top dermatologist got elected from around the world and they were only interested in
the world Congress that works and took a different view that being such an important elected committee,
they ought to be taking interested in the resource poor countries and doing something about it.
And if you had to set up this idea and thought that I would be a suitable person who supported involve me all the way along with his thinking,
indeed also in fundraising for a small bank fund to support it, I think we got about 700 pounds from Dermatologist's and I was one of the co trustees.
So eventually Daniel would want to retire from the International Committee and thought that was the most important person to do it.
And I got lots of letters from the senior dermatologist welcoming me.
But eventually when we went to the World Congress in Mexico and I was going to be appointed,
out came you, Wallace said, I'm sorry, but they think you won't get elected because you're too young.
And we will say the dollar will stay on a bit longer. So I didn't get it then.
I got it five years later. Yes. Meeting with some of the senior dermatologist in Britain against them who are professors.
And I was right. Wasn't the professor. Yes, I get it.
But I did get it because of that knowledge. Friends. So so the work that you've done internationally,
you've done it again on the leprosy from there weren't any front, lymphatic front, all sorts of things.
Yes. I mean, that's that's where I came in because I really I got onto it directly.
I was elected. That was in Berlin to the International Committee. It became.
Clear that they should have a separate branch, which they call the International Foundation for Dermatology,
and I got elected I got elected onto that and I was one of the five more active members.
I'll cop who is a famous dermatologist with his practise on the top of the Empire State Building in New York.
There was. A very good steward, madam, in in Vancouver, who is excellent with industry and getting money,
and there are a group of us who decide visits in Africa and we decided on Africa
and we had the ambassador to Venezuela of Vegas who is also dermatologist's.
And we started going to places like Africa and setting up the regional dermatology training centre in.
Yes, very much involved in that with Gossman, who is the person who knew most about Africa and came from Germany.
So I was very much involved with that and then later became involved with the on that committee, with the French group,
who were very jealous of our English activities and wanted to set up a programme in West Africa.
So I went to Mali. Yes.
And helped to set up there and then a French speaking system and then the ambassador to Guatemala in London turned out to be a dermatologist also,
but it turned out to be a doctor who wanted to learn dermatologists.
Right. And he was at the Institute Dermatology,
Learning Dermatology and decided he wanted to have a training centre in Guatemala as his sister was married to the president.
And all of that was easy to do. So I got very much involved in setting up a training centre for nurses in Guatemala in rural areas.
Yes. Which was a difficult Guatemala difficult place.
Dermatologists didn't like the idea at all in Guatemala because they thought that taking a private practise on the very first visit we paid her,
we went to a hospital site, which we thought might be suitable for us, but found it to be involved in the massacre the night before.
And anyone who involved was teaching things like nurses and will do is not to be a communist anyway.
So it was a very difficult time and we only had five years.
Yes, we did teach we did set up a centre that mostly helped buy from America and the nurses.
There were about 250 nurses which we taught in rural areas of Guatemala very successfully.
And and they didn't take the practise away from the dermatologist.
They actually increased them by 5000 per year because they knew they could recognise things in the skin they weren't afraid of.
So, yes, it was a very good move, really. So then I decided I want to do China.
Right. Well, China is an interesting place to do it.
So what happened in China? Well, long story. They're really in that very early on I had been I had looked after.
A woman who had been married to one of the Chinese most famous visitors,
the surgeon to Mao for his army was and then the Canadian and she'd been married him twice and had looked after her.
And I'd got to know a bit about China. And then when I was president of the World Congress of my regulation adopted the Chinese.
It was the first visit of the Chinese really to Congress in in Britain.
And they brought evidence of herbals activity during a meningitis epidemic of preventing shock in babies.
And as a result of that, I became an honorary member of the circulation society in Beijing and began to have
relationships with some of the Chinese medicine development in the in the vascular field.
I was also chairman of all Microsoft relations societies around the world helping decide when to have the next Congress and where and so on.
So I was quite involved with the Chinese at that time who wanted to have a Congress.
And then later in China. I.
Colin Doodler had invited the man who's very successfully eliminating that policy from China,
who is like another expatriate who learnt about syphilis in America and he helped to abolish or to control syphilis in China.
And then he took on leprosy and he came to Oxford, even stayed at our house once, my uncle, my hide.
So I got involved with the Chinese leprosy elimination programme.
Right. And then later, when I was on the International Committee, decided that we should it would be a good idea to have.
A regional dermatology training centre in China.
This was actually proposed by one of the Chinese dermatologists in Xian who had a student learning dermatologist who became actually my secretary.
The organisation we set up a programme in Nanjing for training of doctors in towns to teach the barefoot doctors, the so-called village doctors.
And we set up a programme and we worked on it for about two years.
But eventually four people went to prison, know spending all the money on buying lasers to treat wrinkles in Shanghai.
And as the International Committee wasn't particularly interested in China on Onii, they were rather glad to drop it.
I think it's so very good.
So all those international activities, I'm going to drag you back to Oxford.
Not so we can think a little bit more about how things changed over your time here.
So when you started, the hospital was based at the old Radcliffe and we were out of the slaid for inpatients.
What changed? And eventually, of course, the infirmary closed and the John Radcliffe started.
And you got patients there. Did that work? That that work much better?
It was much bigger. And it brought us, all of us, a bit more centrally into the centre of Oxford, Oxford Medicine.
By that time, I've become, I think, chairman of I was on the medicine board of the Faculty of Medicine,
so-called Faculty of Medicine, vice chairman of that. Right.
I got quite involved with the John Radcliffe IV has I'd had a World Congress there and so on.
So the outpatients worked very well. Can you just contrast, Terrence, the patients in the old Radcliffe with the facilities in the new John Radcliffe?
My memory about Radcliffe is of tiled floors and a table and patients all able to hear each other.
Is that right? Did it work? It was it was much better, it wasn't it wasn't staggeringly it's looking better, but it was it was much better.
And we were able to have more sessions at the infirmary.
There was only one way to a few moments for our patients, which you had to share with everybody else.
Yes, including sexually transmitted diseases, I might mention sexually transmitted diseases worldwide, managed by dermatology,
but not in this country because we have been the reality in this country and
sexually transmitted diseases have to share with us at the Vatican infirmary space.
But once we got to the John Radcliffe, they stayed down in the back infirmary.
Right. And we didn't we didn't have so many people.
So we had to place more or less to ourselves. Whereas in the Vatican family, we only had it for one day.
Yeah, right. As in the John Radcliffe, we really had it.
But any day we liked. So we had only one day of clinics in the old Radcliffe.
That was it. Outpatient clinics. Yes. Yes, I think it was, yes.
Because things have changed a lot in dermatology because in those days. We had our surgical and I work clinic at the Slade Hospital, right,
and we kept the clinic at the state hospital and we kept our surgical session at the state hospital, but it was only one week.
Tell me about the surgery facilities at the Slade Terrance. What was the theatre?
We had a theatre, a table. I used to go to Holwell to get liquid nitrogen used and we had a session for water using liquid nitrogen.
Yes. And we then went on and did some surgery for about two hours.
So that the surgery when you say we had to see, I said, can you just describe just for the listeners what what you mean by the word theatre?
Because it well, it it was a room which had washing facilities and two tables.
And that's all we didn't have anaesthetics or anything like that.
Well, we had local anaesthetic. We had local anaesthetic.
Yes, but when it was hot, I have a recollection.
We opened the doors to the garden, let the sun in the area and that sort of thing is just wiped clean room, very different to what we have now.
I mean, there were two of us on for one morning a week doing surgery.
Nowadays, there are 15 dermatologists in a full time surgery at the general.
And when you were doing your surgery back then, did you wear a mask?
Did you wear gloves? No, no, no, no, no. That's something else to dealing with warts, which doesn't need anything.
And we were dealing with curtilage of rodent ulcers.
Yes. If they were big, they went to plastic surgery.
Yes. So we did have a combined clinic, both with radiotherapy and with with plastic surgery.
Yes. I think that's very good. And then the other thing that's changed over the years when you were a consultant was you got more König.
So Romney came in to replace Rudnic, but then I joined you.
It was quite a long time.
Before we got Fanfarlo was an Oscar and we could only get her part time, she had to work at Wickham and Amersham as well as with us.
She was only part time of us and she wanted to do research. Yes.
So the amount of time she had for clinical work with us was quite small.
But she was a third consultant. What we shouldn't forget is that we now got the stage where we had not only a registrar but a senior registrar.
We had both right. And they were all excellent and they were all capable of innovation.
And I think each one of you, including yourself, took on a new topic for development and became well known for it.
Yes. You yourself helped, I think, of lawyers and witnesses and then took on relationships with the medical school.
Yes, other piece of became a loan for famous anthologised and so on.
Sheila Pob. Came with was to actually be before that nonsense.
She had worked with Colin in Africa, right.
And she came to us and eventually she came as a senior registrar.
These were all part time married when we were very lucky that we had Rosemary developing
the idea that married women should be able to get work even if they were pregnant.
And we benefited from that enormously and a lot of our senior individuals with part time married women and very good ones that yes,
so they they felt the dramaturgy, the whole thing has changed, I think, because we have now so many more women.
Yes. And dermatologists nationally. Internationally, too, I suppose.
I mean, lawyers, regardless of a suitable job for women, because the only thing would not getting you up at night and literally.
Yes. And pull you back to your relationships with infectious diseases who were on the same side of the slide was David Warilla.
Who would you have been working with there or was that Waran? Was it back when he was the medical officer of health for Oxygen?
And he was quite an academic man and he was an examiner for.
Yes. Bacteriology and things like that.
And they had initially that they had the only cases of leprosy until we had our ward and we got to our unit for leprosy.
Six beds. Yes. So we worked with them. But within a year, which we found us in, made you no longer infectious.
Yes. You cleared your nose. And that's one thing. There was no dust on the floor with leprosy in it.
So we turned the whole thing into the whole of the embedded unit for leprosy.
We turned it into research,
including bringing in Professor of Anatomy Gamwell Patel up with his electron microscope and his people in the infectious diseases unit.
We had a good relationship with them. I suppose we would visit them not once a month, but see something they were interested in, right.
But you weren't collaborating on the leprosy research, particularly weren't collaborating.
No, no, indeed. It was more difficult than that because the leprosy in this country was,
from the government point of view, is run by a man called Cockram, who spent most of his time in India.
And when we had a patient who was making death AIDS and had multiple with leprosy.
The medical officers health questioned whether it was safe to make that case and whether we
wouldn't end up with thousands of people in Oxford with leprosy of the year from death AIDS,
Kaufman said, oh, it isn't really a problem. I'll be back with you in six months time.
Let's discuss it then. Didn't see CNN and the full medical officer of health was very bamboozled by the whole business of how you should proceed.
You were able to step in and sort it out, were you? Well, we once we got to the events and had very good evidence that the activity.
OK, I'm going to move sideways again because another of your skills,
alongside your dermatology and your wound healing on your piano is your water colour paintings, which are decorated many of the hospitals in Oxford.
How did you get into watercolours, Terence?
My father pointed out that, as I mentioned earlier, I had been to many schools, some of which were quite arty,
which was not a school, for instance, so I became quite interested in art in general.
Looking at that and that's all,
but I didn't really take up painting until I was in Japan and realised that the way the Japanese paint it was something that I thought I could copy.
And I began initially painting bit like a Japanese with charcoal pens and things,
and eventually quite successful as I'm sitting here on my first painting is just behind me,
actually, where I used a bit of the Japanese way of painting and then.
It became. Something I did, I used to do to, but they've got big.
And I also became I was asked, I think, by the John directly to be in charge of the Dekel, huh?
And I did that with Manelli, who is a surgeon, many languages morally.
And I used to go to London to art galleries and things. They used to buy things and.
Some of the pending stuff in the fridge I bought with my late.
He introduced me to want to artists, and by that time Green College had started and they needed an art gallery to say I was involved in that and.
The corridors in the Jumblat Live and at the church are enormously long,
and we couldn't afford to decorate them with expensive things from London galleries.
So I took on a new idea, which is to buy very cheaply Japanese wallpapers,
get my son to make cheap frames and wear the Commodore down right down to the transplant unit unit.
And we know the area is decorated by wallpaper and the Japanese wrapping papers.
It looks so successful they're quite attractive that I took Thai silk scarves and
painted them and then took I think it was cushions and Indian cushions covers.
We turned them into art. So we looked at cheap ways.
We got quite a lot of artists, proper artists to donate to us.
Some quite good artists did that. And I began to put up some of my paintings when we got a new building, I began to put some of my paintings up there.
What did you think of that they used to be a sculpture outside the door.
I'm not sure if that thing like a windmill that world around when I got that and of course, is fiercely,
fiercely criticised by the Arctic male for spending money, but had to point out the money didn't come from patient care.
And actually. Apart from the fact that it needed replacing every now and again, because the sales,
it was a windmill actually copied from the dome, told you it bombed in Miami, it needed replacing about every three years.
And that was a bit expensive. But in spite of the criticism from the actual mail, it became the place where everybody took photographs.
If there's any photograph of anything, John Radcliffe, it was always by that sale, including by the Oxford Mail,
and it was played and became a feature of John down-market quite important, one iconic.
And the other thing, of course, the journalist passes that garden at the front.
Were you involved with that as well? Because I know you have a love of gardening.
Yes, I wasn't particularly involved in that one, but I wasn't involved in that one, that was.
But but you had a garden in the new dermatology unit? Oh, yes.
Yes, of course. We had the garden slate and slide from time to time when they were trying to cut down the hospital, useless hospitals.
We had lots of campaigns to try and keep it because patients liked it so much,
because the gardens and we we realised that guns are extremely important.
And they continued. And I published articles on the importance of gardens for health and trees and so on,
have been published a few articles like that because it is important for health.
And so when we moved to the Churchill, we also had a garden built a garden there.
Yes. Well, Terence, it's been a great pleasure talking to you.
Is there anything else I should ask you? Is there anything else you'd like to tell me about?
I don't know what else we want to be talking about. I wish I would have mentioned that all the time was that I was there.
Mr. Haines, who was the chief nurse at the V.A. at the hospital when we first started.
I was also with St John Ambulance and he asked he asked me to do some lectures, footage on the ambulance.
This led me to become a so-called know what they call the surgeon to one to the one down and had ABS, which is the St. Paul area.
And directly, I was appointed as members.
And John Adams suddenly got a call from London saying Churchill had died.
Would I'd manage his funeral arrangements in Woodstock.
A bloody. And so they had to get me into a uniform for that hat that was big enough and it was a business business,
and eventually we I didn't know what I was doing in the army.
A little bit about mess mess injuries and the like.
So I set up I requisitioned a house in Bladen as a hospital for all the casualties that are likely to occur.
And. Then she got my uniform.
There were about 3000 police and there were about 200 civil defence leaders,
lots of Boy Scouts and like, but Mrs. Churchill said that should be a private funeral.
We had a very big funeral in London that morning. It was very cold. No one turned up at all.
So absolutely nothing in the way of cases. We had this huge house was not turned into a hospital and all this soup that had to be eaten.
I did see Churchill go by on the very gradually and I became in charge of St John Ambulance for the whole of Oxfordshire.
That meant that I was basically in charge of such things as preparations for war,
because there was a time when we were very close to war with our of and I wanted someone to help him.
And we had an underground bunker in Wood Eton, where we could plan war.
And so Alexander and I planned what we're going to do with the populations of Oxford.
I worked with the Red Cross on this.
I got a little bit of practise because when I started and John Adams was and was in charge of the ambulance service,
so I found myself with an ambulance service. I didn't have a good administrators.
I didn't really have to do anything about it until he died.
And I had to give the after the operation, but I had very little to do with the ambulance service unless it was a strike.
And when there was a strike that occurred about two times, I had to provide the ambulance service once and John Ambulance and Red Cross.
So I was in charge of that. And also we had illegal public festivals.
Right. Which I had to organise every two weeks with the health service.
Well, with David Waring and people, we had to organise the health service and the John Edwards people.
So it was I was quite busy on them. Well, the knighthood, I think you've had an incredible life.
Parents, you've done so much from a a slightly inauspicious start and then progressing through to become a leading dermatologist.
It's really been a huge pleasure talking to you. And I'm sure I just say that I haven't stopped.
No doubt is now 20 to 25 years or so since I retired.
And I'm just as busy zooming to India, China and Pakistan.
Yes, I've continued to work internationally.
Of course I gave up and do you and I gave up all my connexions with dermatology in this country and it hasn't stopped me elsewhere.
And you've got the friends of NOTAM Gardens as well. We haven't really touched on that.
All the activities that you've done for the alumni, that's Green College,
because I became a member of the Green College World and the Green College, and then John Walton asked me to take over.
He had his office in thirty Garden is good old man, so he asked me to take that over.
I've gradually developed that into a quite good place. Good.
Well, thank you so much for talking to us.