1 00:00:03,260 --> 00:00:10,550 This is Susan Baj interviewing Ryan on November the 18th, 20 twenty. 2 00:00:10,550 --> 00:00:15,500 Good morning, Terrence. Good morning, sir. Very nice to speak to you. 3 00:00:15,500 --> 00:00:20,150 Pleasure. So we're going to talk for about an hour. 4 00:00:20,150 --> 00:00:25,370 And I think the first thing is to find out how you ended up in Oxford studying medicine. 5 00:00:25,370 --> 00:00:32,300 So perhaps you can tell me why you chose to become a doctor. Well, thank you for that question. 6 00:00:32,300 --> 00:00:41,720 It happened because I had a rather strong mother who was always a great believer in predicting what I was going to do. 7 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:49,130 And at the age of four, I made medicines for her horses out of white washing nettles. 8 00:00:49,130 --> 00:00:56,420 And from that time on, she said, Terrance is going to be a doctor. And that was so it never altered. 9 00:00:56,420 --> 00:01:02,360 I was always going to be a doctor. You had a slightly difficult schooling, didn't you? 10 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:12,260 Terrible. Well, this is what time my mother, who had run away into the Army in the First World War, 11 00:01:12,260 --> 00:01:19,520 was called up as early as 1937 to help recruit women into driving. 12 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:27,440 And she became one of the first wives. My father joined the show at Forester's. 13 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:35,140 As a result of that, he became a prisoner eventually in Germany, as a result of that, I went to many different schools. 14 00:01:35,140 --> 00:01:41,400 And that really had a terrible education. And eventually. 15 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:48,120 When trying to take an entrance, I was labelled as educationally subnormal. 16 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:53,870 This resulted in all sorts of things like going to special schools and. 17 00:01:53,870 --> 00:02:03,640 Those special schools couldn't actually provide me with anything relating to medicine. 18 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:09,290 And there came a point when. I'd failed. 19 00:02:09,290 --> 00:02:17,760 I think maths or something, and the whole question of how would I get to Oxford, which is what it was the plan of my mother. 20 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:24,580 And so wait a minute. Your mother must have realised you were not educationally subnormal. 21 00:02:24,580 --> 00:02:31,810 Oh, yes, I wouldn't, except the person who made the diagnosis, I was a bright little boy. 22 00:02:31,810 --> 00:02:36,450 Yeah, it was there was problems with dyslexia. I suppose it would be later on now, would it? 23 00:02:36,450 --> 00:02:41,130 Yes, I went to a school which was the first to use typewriters, 24 00:02:41,130 --> 00:02:47,610 although I didn't use a typewriter and later became well known as a well-known school for dyslexia. 25 00:02:47,610 --> 00:02:57,630 And certainly I I know that I have features of dyslexia, but if I'm asked to explain exactly what is wrong with me, I find that very difficult. 26 00:02:57,630 --> 00:03:05,250 Yes, yes, but I still have I still have some problems which could be labelled as dyslexia. 27 00:03:05,250 --> 00:03:11,490 Yeah. So your mother, your pushy mother, then how did you get to Oxford? 28 00:03:11,490 --> 00:03:20,730 Well, the special school I went to was run by a pair of headmasters, one of whom was a Wimbledon tennis player. 29 00:03:20,730 --> 00:03:32,480 And played with the head of one of the coaches was the college, the famous master, J.C. Masterman, who was also head of MI5. 30 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:41,900 And or something like that at one time, and it took me to a tennis competition in Oxford. 31 00:03:41,900 --> 00:03:47,700 And I was interviewed briefly by this famous in Masterman. 32 00:03:47,700 --> 00:03:54,030 Ten years later, I was told by the senior tutor was to college that that he took pity on me. 33 00:03:54,030 --> 00:03:57,660 He must have done because he said I could come visit. 34 00:03:57,660 --> 00:04:03,640 I got sort of physics, chemistry and biology. 35 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:08,310 And so I went to Crown is in London for a whole year. 36 00:04:08,310 --> 00:04:15,810 Failed physics four times, but eventually got in. I managed to get my biology first time and chemistry second time, 37 00:04:15,810 --> 00:04:22,290 but it was a pretty fearsome time having got those out and having done a rather good 38 00:04:22,290 --> 00:04:33,150 entrance paper to the college entitled Music is the Most aethereal of the Arts. 39 00:04:33,150 --> 00:04:37,740 I did take pity on me and allowed me to come in. That's why I just pick you up. 40 00:04:37,740 --> 00:04:41,700 Not because music is another part of your expertise, isn't it, Terence? 41 00:04:41,700 --> 00:04:49,230 When did you start playing the piano? Oh, I started playing tennis at nine, I didn't really get going until I was given. 42 00:04:49,230 --> 00:04:55,710 Some really good tuition about the age of 14, and then I took it seriously, right. 43 00:04:55,710 --> 00:05:01,650 In October, the music was more important to me, really, than looking for exams. 44 00:05:01,650 --> 00:05:06,250 But I had a very good time musically and also had a lot of musical friends. 45 00:05:06,250 --> 00:05:12,190 Yes. So what were your first impressions of Oxford as a student? 46 00:05:12,190 --> 00:05:23,610 Oh, a wonderful, interesting place, but I remember I was put into an annexe of the college. 47 00:05:23,610 --> 00:05:32,870 Which was a sort of garage, I couldn't find it, so I went up to a very senior looking man who was actually the senior lawman. 48 00:05:32,870 --> 00:05:36,750 And so where is this place, is it? Haven't you got any initiative? 49 00:05:36,750 --> 00:05:46,310 Boy, that was slightly frightening. We'll have to find this place on my own, but eventually found where I was going to stay. 50 00:05:46,310 --> 00:05:51,920 And I enjoyed was to college, and they did take pity on me, but I didn't do very well. 51 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:56,680 I failed every single exam at least once. 52 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:02,530 And went on doing so even when I went to the Vatican firm, which I went to rather than London, 53 00:06:02,530 --> 00:06:08,380 because my tutor thought, well, he's going to struggle in this important place like cities. 54 00:06:08,380 --> 00:06:14,200 And guys, let's go to this little hospital in Oxford and see how he does there. 55 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:18,610 So this was the Radcliffe Infirmary failed. This was the infirmary. 56 00:06:18,610 --> 00:06:22,300 So the medicine in those days was very much preclinical, wasn't it? 57 00:06:22,300 --> 00:06:33,310 And then you'd move on to do your clinical. That's what most people did. And the entrance of eight in my in my ear. 58 00:06:33,310 --> 00:06:45,190 And so it's a very good time to be there because in fact, we were clerks rather than students and we had a very good time learning medicine. 59 00:06:45,190 --> 00:06:56,230 And I didn't fail my finals. Brilliant and inspirational teachers at that stage, parents who were the clinicians that would have been teaching you. 60 00:06:56,230 --> 00:07:01,460 There were a lot of really quite good people. 61 00:07:01,460 --> 00:07:12,980 The point really was that I soon became president of the House and I was involved in four pantomimes there's known better for. 62 00:07:12,980 --> 00:07:21,200 I don't know. Not for medicine, I think. And indeed, once when I think I was picked up by the best job, I was. 63 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:28,440 So Judge Pickering, these the new readers, professor. And I was chosen to be his housemen. 64 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:32,790 So what are we talking about, terms if we just just give a timeline here? 65 00:07:32,790 --> 00:07:42,740 When did you arrive at the right time, me to do your clinical studies? Fifty three hundred fifty fifty three, OK, it's. 66 00:07:42,740 --> 00:07:49,000 And. And as I said, I spent a lot of time doing things like Tantric. 67 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:57,260 A lot for them and the president of the House and so on. 68 00:07:57,260 --> 00:08:04,970 And George Prickling much later. Had to give me a reference, he didn't mention medicine at all. 69 00:08:04,970 --> 00:08:12,260 He just said it was a good job, really. So I think that's why I got his job. 70 00:08:12,260 --> 00:08:22,700 So were you on stage in Kendrick? Oh, yes, three times, and then I was a pianist, one one at one stage, so I wrote it, of course, one year. 71 00:08:22,700 --> 00:08:27,230 I'm very good, Terance now. So those were good times as a student? 72 00:08:27,230 --> 00:08:31,250 Yes. Yes, they were. There was trouble because there were so few of us. 73 00:08:31,250 --> 00:08:40,280 And indeed, as president, I had to support everything. I found myself playing rugby against Cardiff, against and Georges, 74 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:46,040 and I'd never played anything except soccer before that all those little things, I was a bit of good. 75 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:51,890 So then you moved on to just jobs and you had the Pickering horse job, which must have been a top job. 76 00:08:51,890 --> 00:08:56,600 That was that was an interesting job because he was an interesting man. 77 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:06,480 And as a result of that. I was invited to be with one of my nephews, a fairly senior associate here, nose and throat surgeon. 78 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:18,530 Yes. And with him. Being with him resulted in the fact that when I had to do it, then do my national service because I hadn't done it before. 79 00:09:18,530 --> 00:09:26,670 He knew the head of the Army Medical Corps, who was also an international flight surgeon. 80 00:09:26,670 --> 00:09:29,390 And I was immediately given a consulting post, 81 00:09:29,390 --> 00:09:39,420 although I'd only done six months of surgery and his surgery was given the consulting post and in Colchester, 82 00:09:39,420 --> 00:09:47,290 receiving all the evacuations from the British army of the Rhine and also being a pioneer in doing for the army civilian work. 83 00:09:47,290 --> 00:09:51,910 So I did about 200 tonsillectomies and about 200 in those operations. 84 00:09:51,910 --> 00:09:58,650 Gracious. I didn't really touch the ear. And then I'd said that I was interested in dermatology. 85 00:09:58,650 --> 00:10:04,290 So I said, Oh, you better be our dermatologist. So I became a consultant dermatologist that went in the army. 86 00:10:04,290 --> 00:10:11,130 That was the stage. They hadn't even got steroids. It's still got the old fashioned in arsenic and things like that. 87 00:10:11,130 --> 00:10:21,120 And I had my own pharmacist and I received from the British army of the Rhine and also from the local army prison. 88 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:33,030 A lot of patients, a lot of people. And I had a lot of work, but I realised that I wasn't really doing I wasn't really experienced in the army. 89 00:10:33,030 --> 00:10:48,120 So I joined in the early mornings being M0 to a I think it was a signal regiment and that was quite interesting, 90 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:56,060 disguising one's own tent as it was playing playing soldiers. 91 00:10:56,060 --> 00:10:58,020 But at the same time, 92 00:10:58,020 --> 00:11:09,660 I also helped run the Garrison Theatre and we entered the British Draw British Drama League elitist competitions and competitions, 93 00:11:09,660 --> 00:11:14,530 and we won first on one the second time and eventually got to the semi-finals. 94 00:11:14,530 --> 00:11:20,580 I was in it. So that was quite fun to watch, to go back to the dermatology. 95 00:11:20,580 --> 00:11:24,790 Had you met somebody as a student who had inspired you, why me? 96 00:11:24,790 --> 00:11:30,600 Yes, that was important because Alex Carlton was the dermatologist now as Carlton was a famous anatomist. 97 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:42,090 So everybody mesilla in anatomy. And she was very frightening, very witty, quite cruel to the girls, like the boys. 98 00:11:42,090 --> 00:11:51,930 But when it was known it so happened that my father met her brother and she knew I was coming to do damage to the dermatology clinic as a student, 99 00:11:51,930 --> 00:11:57,410 and because my fellow students know three others knew that she knew me. 100 00:11:57,410 --> 00:12:04,020 I was pushed ahead. And if I read up dermatology, I probably knew it better than any other subject. 101 00:12:04,020 --> 00:12:08,520 By the time I went to the clinic, that's really hard. Became a dermatologist. 102 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:20,990 If you got it wrong with her, she would hit you. And if one of her female colleagues tipped you off with the right answer, she would hit her as well. 103 00:12:20,990 --> 00:12:28,430 So it was quite an exciting time, no non-approved educational method anymore. 104 00:12:28,430 --> 00:12:34,580 So that didn't put you off dermatologic. No, let me be a dermatologist. 105 00:12:34,580 --> 00:12:42,980 Yeah, and then those animatronic because and I told Wendy because at one point that I was interested totally because I thought 106 00:12:42,980 --> 00:12:48,440 it was at least specialised with special allergies and he thought it was rather good and put into one of his lectures, 107 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:53,450 which is published in the BMJ that wanted to be a dermatologist. 108 00:12:53,450 --> 00:12:59,930 So I had to be a dermatologist. OK, so you've done your costumes, you've done your stint with the Army. 109 00:12:59,930 --> 00:13:04,180 Let your EMT skills. I must say, I remember your EMT skills when I worked with you. 110 00:13:04,180 --> 00:13:08,360 You used to be able to manoeuvre one of those mirror things that you put on. 111 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:15,890 Yes. They ended up just, I suspect, who I used to I used to move the wax and all my colleagues. 112 00:13:15,890 --> 00:13:20,690 Yes. Did you want something that to defeat the model? 113 00:13:20,690 --> 00:13:31,010 And then you mentioned this little hurdle of membership. Well, I'd failed lots of exams going up to medicine except the finals, 114 00:13:31,010 --> 00:13:36,620 and once I started having to have members because everybody knew you had to have met, 115 00:13:36,620 --> 00:13:41,420 you can be a dermatologist, really, because you was that the chief advisers, 116 00:13:41,420 --> 00:13:48,110 one of whom was England, and another was common knowledge that he's got to have membership. 117 00:13:48,110 --> 00:13:57,540 And so I started taking membership and I found it very difficult, and I think it was probably because I didn't really know how to learn. 118 00:13:57,540 --> 00:14:06,510 Something to my dyslexia, too, because I used to. Look at all of some people or something and give it the wrong name. 119 00:14:06,510 --> 00:14:11,910 Yeah, wrong names kept on turning up in membership, which didn't help. 120 00:14:11,910 --> 00:14:17,670 So I eventually took that 11 times. Oh, that must be a record is a recognised thing. 121 00:14:17,670 --> 00:14:27,390 I should think it's quite expensive as well, Terrance. It was expensive, but it took me up to Edinburgh and all the other places as well. 122 00:14:27,390 --> 00:14:30,910 Yes, it was a struggle and very depressing. 123 00:14:30,910 --> 00:14:40,140 At the same time, I was being successful as a young registrar, dermatologist and very good everybody from the various things I was publishing. 124 00:14:40,140 --> 00:14:44,310 So yes, what I was going to be a dermatologist. Very good to show you. 125 00:14:44,310 --> 00:14:52,270 If I could get membership, say you finally passed your membership and then I think you spent time in London. 126 00:14:52,270 --> 00:14:59,890 Well, before that, I had done I published one or two quite good papers which were thought to be lateral thinking, 127 00:14:59,890 --> 00:15:06,490 oh, this is the direct result of a real interest in the blood supply of the skin. 128 00:15:06,490 --> 00:15:13,000 That is because I had in my hand an empty instrument called jobs in Holland, which took wax out of the ears. 129 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,780 Yes, I pressed it on the skin and sure saw it in dentist. 130 00:15:16,780 --> 00:15:24,520 And I looked at the indentation under a microscope and saw that in the end I could see the blood vessels much better than normal. 131 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:33,220 And so I began to describe what I saw and became the authority on the anatomy vasculature of 132 00:15:33,220 --> 00:15:37,240 the skin very quickly because people weren't interested in the blood supply at that time, 133 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:44,490 not really being a physiologist called Thomas and. 134 00:15:44,490 --> 00:15:48,220 There's been a bit of physiology, but they haven't really been any dermatologist, 135 00:15:48,220 --> 00:15:54,740 just that it's that when you wrote your paper on the direction of growth of the epidermis, 136 00:15:54,740 --> 00:16:02,600 I wrote this because I just thought that it was peculiar that epidermis was said to be migrating outwards. 137 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:08,530 When I was interested in blood, I knew that everything migrated to blood supply at. 138 00:16:08,530 --> 00:16:16,810 And I said that the Rentech is what you want to give a paper on it. So I gave a paper on it and had stunned silence. 139 00:16:16,810 --> 00:16:22,360 And eventually I published it and. 140 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:34,550 Five years later, probably the most important damage of pathologists in America wrote a paper on Ron's theory saying it was wrong. 141 00:16:34,550 --> 00:16:42,610 But nevertheless, everybody was very pleased that this very important dermatologist and thought it was important. 142 00:16:42,610 --> 00:16:50,680 And I continued to write papers corresponding with Pincus that did help my reputation. 143 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:59,670 Very good. But. After being registar, we've then seen a registrar, he became president of the body. 144 00:16:59,670 --> 00:17:04,970 We had the meeting of the body in Oxford, which. 145 00:17:04,970 --> 00:17:15,190 I moulders took over the organisation. Hmm. 146 00:17:15,190 --> 00:17:21,160 And so I helped him with his setting up the British Association of Dermatology meeting, 147 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:29,640 I took over the playhouse, which is the local small theatre, and I presented one afternoon. 148 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:41,080 A long session on the blood supply of the skin, right, and I also set up I managed to borrow about 10. 149 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:49,650 Long distance microscopes and they've set up on the Saturday morning session whereby you looked at the blood supply of the skin in different diseases. 150 00:17:49,650 --> 00:17:58,410 And so even as a registrar, I was well known and thought to be competing with Newcastle others, so I'm just a very good, very good. 151 00:17:58,410 --> 00:18:02,370 So you did spend time in in St. John's, I think, did you? 152 00:18:02,370 --> 00:18:09,200 Well, yes. It was decided that I should have a vascular laboratory and be a lecturer. 153 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:18,420 And I had this laboratory of an Homerton next door to Magnus, who was the field biologist next door to the electron microscope. 154 00:18:18,420 --> 00:18:31,670 And Charles Golman organised for some quite senior people to come and be my colleagues, running that it makes investiture and. 155 00:18:31,670 --> 00:18:41,360 I had the. Professor of dermatology from the Lebanon, and I have one too young goodness Americans. 156 00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:45,620 Yes, this is amazing. Almost a trainee. 157 00:18:45,620 --> 00:18:50,420 And then you came back to Oxford as a consultant in 1971, I think. 158 00:18:50,420 --> 00:18:56,500 Yes, that's right. That sort of notion that I was going to get the job, 159 00:18:56,500 --> 00:19:04,990 but there were others competing right people and the sort of questions I got, I got asked by Dalberg. 160 00:19:04,990 --> 00:19:09,860 Who do you think is the most important William Byrd? 161 00:19:09,860 --> 00:19:16,850 Or Monteverdi. Oh, my goodness. Those are some of the questions I got him. 162 00:19:16,850 --> 00:19:25,550 Very good. And I was appointed. So what was Oxford like in 1971 as a new consultant? 163 00:19:25,550 --> 00:19:32,820 Oh, very good, and of course, I had one because there were only two of us that had one because it's a very well known dermatologist as a senior body. 164 00:19:32,820 --> 00:19:38,540 So I was just really learning how to be a consultant from him in those days. 165 00:19:38,540 --> 00:19:44,630 We had lots and lots of beds. This was at the slide at the Slaid. 166 00:19:44,630 --> 00:19:49,940 Indeed. As and had had had 40 beds when they can reduce. 167 00:19:49,940 --> 00:19:53,570 I remember we had and we had when I joined it. 168 00:19:53,570 --> 00:20:00,830 Eventually we got down to 12 beds. Right. And at the state hospital, which is on the ringroad. 169 00:20:00,830 --> 00:20:05,600 Yes. And we had infectious diseases next door to it. We had infectious diseases next door to us. 170 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:09,920 Yes. Things like leprosy and things used to go there. Yes. 171 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:22,950 As a as a registrar, Reneg had begun to take an interest in leprosy because the professor of anatomy in Oxford, Guillermo Del. 172 00:20:22,950 --> 00:20:29,430 Had got the first electron microscope and was studying the innovation of the skin and leprosy world, 173 00:20:29,430 --> 00:20:40,410 wanted him to look at the changes in the skin, the anaesthesia, which is characteristic of of leprosy. 174 00:20:40,410 --> 00:20:48,540 And so they it and they began to take biopsies from Nigeria and so on because they didn't work, because they were informed them. 175 00:20:48,540 --> 00:20:52,210 And eventually he needed to have leprosy patients in Oxford. 176 00:20:52,210 --> 00:21:01,920 So we offered him a bed and two beds and eventually got six bed unit built by the National Foundation. 177 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:08,340 By the time I came back to Oxford, we had this separate unit of leprosy goodness. 178 00:21:08,340 --> 00:21:15,960 And we had employed Colin McDougal, who was a well-known apologist who come from, I think, Singapore at that time. 179 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:26,440 And we began to take patients who had leprosy and we became important for leprosy because we were the first to show resistance to Daptone, 180 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:32,250 which is one of the main drugs for leprosy. I mean, the first to show the effectiveness of rifampicin. 181 00:21:32,250 --> 00:21:34,070 It was called into work. 182 00:21:34,070 --> 00:21:44,480 And I was interested in the blood supply from those kids, from the places you got leprosy, and it began to develop a good reputation that was in. 183 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:51,470 And I think that I may also get used to get the money from Lepra and other organisations, so the research money came from leprosy. 184 00:21:51,470 --> 00:21:57,170 So these patients were coming from elsewhere. They were all outside England. 185 00:21:57,170 --> 00:22:01,280 They'd come they'd come in as immigrants from Uganda. 186 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:12,470 And when the army was there and they came from the Philippines, there were about 600 cases of leprosy in the in the country at that time. 187 00:22:12,470 --> 00:22:21,740 Goodness. And we would I would Organa I myself would organise seminars quarterly and all 188 00:22:21,740 --> 00:22:28,100 the dozens of famous biologists from around the world and the kochan and so on. 189 00:22:28,100 --> 00:22:34,640 All the big names in leprosy used to come to the seminars so they could experience. 190 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,850 Yes. Yes. Well, there's been a big change in the management of leprosy, 191 00:22:37,850 --> 00:22:50,690 I guess that we later became the the Centre for doing the Studies of Histopathology of Leprosy following a triple therapy. 192 00:22:50,690 --> 00:22:57,080 Yes. And if it hadn't been for us, there wouldn't have been an elimination programme doodle. 193 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:03,690 But he was also editor of the main journal. Yeah, we were at the Centre for Leprosy. 194 00:23:03,690 --> 00:23:08,750 Very good. Now, what about your links with the physicians in the in the old Rateliff? 195 00:23:08,750 --> 00:23:19,740 It would have been still back then. So you went up to the slide for my blood supply was appropriate and. 196 00:23:19,740 --> 00:23:30,250 I became known for my interest in Lagos at that time, Lagos as well, dealt with my physiotherapist, rheumatologist Nutrition's. 197 00:23:30,250 --> 00:23:37,140 Oh, everybody was doing like ulcers and it was eventually decided that we should take charge. 198 00:23:37,140 --> 00:23:40,530 And that really meant me to take charge of Lagos's. 199 00:23:40,530 --> 00:23:45,990 And I brought in a zoologist from America who was doing at that time a PhD in the surgery department. 200 00:23:45,990 --> 00:23:51,540 That was Djordjevic. Yes, he was a zoologist and he was interested in blood supply. 201 00:23:51,540 --> 00:23:57,430 And for his Ph.D., he worked with me a little bit on the blood supply of skin flaps. 202 00:23:57,430 --> 00:24:08,740 And bringing in George Jerry was a very good move because we began not only to work on legacies, but on wound healing in general. 203 00:24:08,740 --> 00:24:15,370 Yes. And George Cherrix attracted quite a lot of money from the industry. 204 00:24:15,370 --> 00:24:22,600 And that was really the second source of major money for research. And we had wound healing. 205 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:28,810 And I still am trying to explore how you got on with the other physicians in Oxford. 206 00:24:28,810 --> 00:24:33,260 Did you interact with other physicians, particularly? 207 00:24:33,260 --> 00:24:48,850 Mainly because to begin with, because he had always said that it was very important to show the importance of dermatology to your colleagues. 208 00:24:48,850 --> 00:24:55,440 And he set up a very good relationship. He became chairman of the Medicine Board, as I I did later. 209 00:24:55,440 --> 00:25:03,520 And he was chairman of the medical board. So he had good relationships from administration point of view when he retired, 210 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:09,820 I suppose it was about six to eight years later following my appointment, 1976. 211 00:25:09,820 --> 00:25:20,290 I think he retired about it. Yes. And then I was in the senior senior man and eventually decided. 212 00:25:20,290 --> 00:25:32,200 That someone who worked with me both in London doing research between London and and Oxford, I had been appointed as dermatologists. 213 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:37,160 They were in medical school for two years to do a session. 214 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:44,470 And when I left, I had this person who had worked with me about the doctor. 215 00:25:44,470 --> 00:25:49,420 He took over at the Hammersmith. Yes. Then he went to Stoke. 216 00:25:49,420 --> 00:25:56,530 And I decided that we had such a good relationship and he was such a enthusiastic person on all subjects. 217 00:25:56,530 --> 00:26:01,930 He was not just a single interest, but had many interests that I would like him to come in. 218 00:26:01,930 --> 00:26:11,590 And when he had just retired was a very good idea and went to see what they said, you must come and persuaded him to come to Oxford. 219 00:26:11,590 --> 00:26:15,430 So I had to run as a company. Yes. 220 00:26:15,430 --> 00:26:19,300 And who I'm still. Who else were physicians then? So you'd have had John Ledingham. 221 00:26:19,300 --> 00:26:21,930 Was he around then or. Yes, he was. 222 00:26:21,930 --> 00:26:30,700 You know, John, all that well, I mean, I got to know him much later that I suppose the people I knew were still the people that I'd worked with, 223 00:26:30,700 --> 00:26:34,090 even as a student like Sheila Calendar and John did not. 224 00:26:34,090 --> 00:26:38,690 And all those people that if I wrote papers with them on methotrexate. 225 00:26:38,690 --> 00:26:47,980 Right. Sheila Calendar and John not co-authors on the first paper on folic acid antagonists in this country. 226 00:26:47,980 --> 00:26:54,580 Yes. And why are you still having things to do with Tenge returns then? 227 00:26:54,580 --> 00:27:01,650 Once home, yes. So you thought you saw the medical students, they were still coming through dermatology, weather? 228 00:27:01,650 --> 00:27:06,010 Oh, yes, they were still talking. Yes, definitely. 229 00:27:06,010 --> 00:27:13,260 And I was by that moment, by that time seeing my brother. 230 00:27:13,260 --> 00:27:17,080 Weeks at the vet. Yes. 231 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:21,100 You became a senior member, so you were very much involved with change back then? Oh, yes, very much so. 232 00:27:21,100 --> 00:27:27,100 Yes, yes. Yes. I think maybe I could really. 233 00:27:27,100 --> 00:27:36,670 Very good. So we've now got a unit with you and with Rodney, and you've still got your wound healing and your leprosy work going on. 234 00:27:36,670 --> 00:27:40,810 You have to get good technicians like Richard Jones. 235 00:27:40,810 --> 00:27:53,170 Yes, germs came as the big man because George needed pics of his skin flaps and Richard Jones came to from the Royal Agricultural College and system, 236 00:27:53,170 --> 00:28:03,190 which it didn't manage very well, and came to us as the technician and grew up and took lots of senior exams, became very, 237 00:28:03,190 --> 00:28:08,140 very good, well qualified technician and eventually became our administrator. 238 00:28:08,140 --> 00:28:14,080 Yes. So tell me about this made what was this made like? Slade was marvellous. 239 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:19,760 It had a lovely garden. It had single homes, patients loved it. 240 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:31,340 And the nurses were always extremely good. We had a Mr. Haynes, who was an expert on leg ulcers, and admittedly we it got him an MBA. 241 00:28:31,340 --> 00:28:40,010 But we also had people like Bennettsville, those wonderful nurses, and eventually I became. 242 00:28:40,010 --> 00:28:50,060 Very interesting development in nursing and wound healing. Yes, but some very senior nurses actually, at one point I took on Steven Hayes, 243 00:28:50,060 --> 00:29:00,080 who is a senior nurse already at Oxford, and he introduced me to become a member of the Institute of Nursing. 244 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:06,200 And I also became on the regional health authorities, nursing representative and so on. 245 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:12,620 So I am very personally involved with nursing and nurses. 246 00:29:12,620 --> 00:29:20,360 Then began to come to me. Diabetic nurses would come to me and said, look, here we need we're doing diabetes, we're doing lots of research. 247 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:25,880 Why can't we take university exams and those wound healing and into exams? 248 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,030 There was pressure on those who want to take exams. 249 00:29:29,030 --> 00:29:36,920 And Basil Shepstone and I worked very closely for about 40 years trying to get them into Oxford University, 250 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:44,870 but they kept on presenting their work, very educational and sociological language and not sufficiently scientific from them. 251 00:29:44,870 --> 00:29:49,880 And so we never got them. But Brooks University took them instead. 252 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:57,320 And then they took me as well and gave me a title of some books in the nursing department. 253 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:04,010 That I was the first consultant to have that happen and it caused a bit of a stir, 254 00:30:04,010 --> 00:30:16,430 and I was brought to the office of Henry Harris and told not to use the title, which I didn't for a while until they gave me one result. 255 00:30:16,430 --> 00:30:22,310 So tell me, how did you really get inspired or how did you see the importance of Maxus? 256 00:30:22,310 --> 00:30:29,100 Why was it that you were one of the trailblazers in developing dermatology, nursing, do you think? 257 00:30:29,100 --> 00:30:36,130 Well, by that time, we'd also taken on Lamfalussy to come in after OK, 258 00:30:36,130 --> 00:30:46,230 after my success publications of books and various things on blood vessels, I began to take up Lymphatics as well. 259 00:30:46,230 --> 00:30:56,040 And that led to lymphoedema. And that led us to being asked by patients who had had mastectomies and got lymphoedema of the arm. 260 00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:00,480 It was a mastectomy society to start taking interest. 261 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:06,960 And I then found that palliative care on the other triclosan had, of course, 262 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:11,010 a lot of lymphedema for one reason or another and were struggling with it. 263 00:31:11,010 --> 00:31:21,640 But it brought in some really excellent nurses to manage lymphedema, piles of care, and they, too, plastic surgeon, nurses and diabetes, 264 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:32,460 and then to research nurses, one from pressure ulcers, a major problem in the surgical team all throughout the hospitals. 265 00:31:32,460 --> 00:31:37,800 That is to become a focus for development of research for nursing. 266 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,190 And we've got that link with Brooks as well. 267 00:31:41,190 --> 00:31:53,730 And it was really these contacts with people, nurses who were doing good research and us as the sort of figurehead for research in wound healing, 268 00:31:53,730 --> 00:31:58,800 pressure, ulcers, glycolysis, which led us to be in the fall. 269 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:03,240 Yes, but we always had to take into account dermatology, nursing. 270 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:09,330 And we we established a link was in Thomas's there as well. 271 00:32:09,330 --> 00:32:13,440 So had there been a British dermatology nursing group before that? 272 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:22,770 We started that the British. Yes, British dermatology nursing group. 273 00:32:22,770 --> 00:32:32,970 And well, from that we developed also the International Skin Care Nursing Group, which became affiliated to the International Council of Nursing. 274 00:32:32,970 --> 00:32:44,800 Right. And I got them involved in the Fadima, particularly on the west coast of Africa, where there is a lot of lymphoedema due to filariasis. 275 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:53,330 They became part of the nursing role in managing lymphoedema worldwide. 276 00:32:53,330 --> 00:32:59,780 I suppose that takes us on then, really to your international work, Terrence, because you've done a lot, haven't you? 277 00:32:59,780 --> 00:33:08,480 Yes, because I've been interested in investing Daniel Wilkinson, who is the most important dermatologist in the Orchard region. 278 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:16,180 He had written the book, The Best Textbook of Dermatology with Afterwork. 279 00:33:16,180 --> 00:33:21,860 And involve me in several of the chapters, particularly the vascular ones like ulcers and. 280 00:33:21,860 --> 00:33:35,510 And at one stage. Because I think my links with lymphoedema worldwide and lymphatic filariasis, Messing's, we began to. 281 00:33:35,510 --> 00:33:41,610 Interest. Work in international work, 282 00:33:41,610 --> 00:33:46,470 and he had been called onto the International Committee of Dermatology and the 283 00:33:46,470 --> 00:33:51,480 International Committee of Dermatology specialised in setting up world Congresses. 284 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,960 That's all it was interested in. But it was a very competitive thing. 285 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:59,910 And not only the top dermatologist got elected from around the world and they were only interested in 286 00:33:59,910 --> 00:34:06,120 the world Congress that works and took a different view that being such an important elected committee, 287 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:11,820 they ought to be taking interested in the resource poor countries and doing something about it. 288 00:34:11,820 --> 00:34:20,400 And if you had to set up this idea and thought that I would be a suitable person who supported involve me all the way along with his thinking, 289 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:35,730 indeed also in fundraising for a small bank fund to support it, I think we got about 700 pounds from Dermatologist's and I was one of the co trustees. 290 00:34:35,730 --> 00:34:43,450 So eventually Daniel would want to retire from the International Committee and thought that was the most important person to do it. 291 00:34:43,450 --> 00:34:49,380 And I got lots of letters from the senior dermatologist welcoming me. 292 00:34:49,380 --> 00:34:57,860 But eventually when we went to the World Congress in Mexico and I was going to be appointed, 293 00:34:57,860 --> 00:35:06,210 out came you, Wallace said, I'm sorry, but they think you won't get elected because you're too young. 294 00:35:06,210 --> 00:35:11,580 And we will say the dollar will stay on a bit longer. So I didn't get it then. 295 00:35:11,580 --> 00:35:22,070 I got it five years later. Yes. Meeting with some of the senior dermatologist in Britain against them who are professors. 296 00:35:22,070 --> 00:35:25,800 And I was right. Wasn't the professor. Yes, I get it. 297 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:31,170 But I did get it because of that knowledge. Friends. So so the work that you've done internationally, 298 00:35:31,170 --> 00:35:37,710 you've done it again on the leprosy from there weren't any front, lymphatic front, all sorts of things. 299 00:35:37,710 --> 00:35:45,930 Yes. I mean, that's that's where I came in because I really I got onto it directly. 300 00:35:45,930 --> 00:35:52,440 I was elected. That was in Berlin to the International Committee. It became. 301 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:59,550 Clear that they should have a separate branch, which they call the International Foundation for Dermatology, 302 00:35:59,550 --> 00:36:07,400 and I got elected I got elected onto that and I was one of the five more active members. 303 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:18,110 I'll cop who is a famous dermatologist with his practise on the top of the Empire State Building in New York. 304 00:36:18,110 --> 00:36:30,450 There was. A very good steward, madam, in in Vancouver, who is excellent with industry and getting money, 305 00:36:30,450 --> 00:36:38,520 and there are a group of us who decide visits in Africa and we decided on Africa 306 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:44,490 and we had the ambassador to Venezuela of Vegas who is also dermatologist's. 307 00:36:44,490 --> 00:36:54,620 And we started going to places like Africa and setting up the regional dermatology training centre in. 308 00:36:54,620 --> 00:37:02,910 Yes, very much involved in that with Gossman, who is the person who knew most about Africa and came from Germany. 309 00:37:02,910 --> 00:37:10,530 So I was very much involved with that and then later became involved with the on that committee, with the French group, 310 00:37:10,530 --> 00:37:17,520 who were very jealous of our English activities and wanted to set up a programme in West Africa. 311 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:19,800 So I went to Mali. Yes. 312 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:34,200 And helped to set up there and then a French speaking system and then the ambassador to Guatemala in London turned out to be a dermatologist also, 313 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,430 but it turned out to be a doctor who wanted to learn dermatologists. 314 00:37:38,430 --> 00:37:41,250 Right. And he was at the Institute Dermatology, 315 00:37:41,250 --> 00:37:49,630 Learning Dermatology and decided he wanted to have a training centre in Guatemala as his sister was married to the president. 316 00:37:49,630 --> 00:37:59,350 And all of that was easy to do. So I got very much involved in setting up a training centre for nurses in Guatemala in rural areas. 317 00:37:59,350 --> 00:38:03,090 Yes. Which was a difficult Guatemala difficult place. 318 00:38:03,090 --> 00:38:11,040 Dermatologists didn't like the idea at all in Guatemala because they thought that taking a private practise on the very first visit we paid her, 319 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:18,930 we went to a hospital site, which we thought might be suitable for us, but found it to be involved in the massacre the night before. 320 00:38:18,930 --> 00:38:24,780 And anyone who involved was teaching things like nurses and will do is not to be a communist anyway. 321 00:38:24,780 --> 00:38:27,860 So it was a very difficult time and we only had five years. 322 00:38:27,860 --> 00:38:36,420 Yes, we did teach we did set up a centre that mostly helped buy from America and the nurses. 323 00:38:36,420 --> 00:38:41,940 There were about 250 nurses which we taught in rural areas of Guatemala very successfully. 324 00:38:41,940 --> 00:38:45,960 And and they didn't take the practise away from the dermatologist. 325 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:53,170 They actually increased them by 5000 per year because they knew they could recognise things in the skin they weren't afraid of. 326 00:38:53,170 --> 00:38:59,100 So, yes, it was a very good move, really. So then I decided I want to do China. 327 00:38:59,100 --> 00:39:04,810 Right. Well, China is an interesting place to do it. 328 00:39:04,810 --> 00:39:15,830 So what happened in China? Well, long story. They're really in that very early on I had been I had looked after. 329 00:39:15,830 --> 00:39:22,340 A woman who had been married to one of the Chinese most famous visitors, 330 00:39:22,340 --> 00:39:30,290 the surgeon to Mao for his army was and then the Canadian and she'd been married him twice and had looked after her. 331 00:39:30,290 --> 00:39:39,200 And I'd got to know a bit about China. And then when I was president of the World Congress of my regulation adopted the Chinese. 332 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:44,510 It was the first visit of the Chinese really to Congress in in Britain. 333 00:39:44,510 --> 00:39:55,850 And they brought evidence of herbals activity during a meningitis epidemic of preventing shock in babies. 334 00:39:55,850 --> 00:40:07,340 And as a result of that, I became an honorary member of the circulation society in Beijing and began to have 335 00:40:07,340 --> 00:40:14,510 relationships with some of the Chinese medicine development in the in the vascular field. 336 00:40:14,510 --> 00:40:25,730 I was also chairman of all Microsoft relations societies around the world helping decide when to have the next Congress and where and so on. 337 00:40:25,730 --> 00:40:31,260 So I was quite involved with the Chinese at that time who wanted to have a Congress. 338 00:40:31,260 --> 00:40:37,060 And then later in China. I. 339 00:40:37,060 --> 00:40:43,630 Colin Doodler had invited the man who's very successfully eliminating that policy from China, 340 00:40:43,630 --> 00:40:58,870 who is like another expatriate who learnt about syphilis in America and he helped to abolish or to control syphilis in China. 341 00:40:58,870 --> 00:41:06,460 And then he took on leprosy and he came to Oxford, even stayed at our house once, my uncle, my hide. 342 00:41:06,460 --> 00:41:12,610 So I got involved with the Chinese leprosy elimination programme. 343 00:41:12,610 --> 00:41:23,830 Right. And then later, when I was on the International Committee, decided that we should it would be a good idea to have. 344 00:41:23,830 --> 00:41:27,780 A regional dermatology training centre in China. 345 00:41:27,780 --> 00:41:36,210 This was actually proposed by one of the Chinese dermatologists in Xian who had a student learning dermatologist who became actually my secretary. 346 00:41:36,210 --> 00:41:51,450 The organisation we set up a programme in Nanjing for training of doctors in towns to teach the barefoot doctors, the so-called village doctors. 347 00:41:51,450 --> 00:41:54,900 And we set up a programme and we worked on it for about two years. 348 00:41:54,900 --> 00:42:04,470 But eventually four people went to prison, know spending all the money on buying lasers to treat wrinkles in Shanghai. 349 00:42:04,470 --> 00:42:10,200 And as the International Committee wasn't particularly interested in China on Onii, they were rather glad to drop it. 350 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:14,010 I think it's so very good. 351 00:42:14,010 --> 00:42:17,610 So all those international activities, I'm going to drag you back to Oxford. 352 00:42:17,610 --> 00:42:22,080 Not so we can think a little bit more about how things changed over your time here. 353 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:30,410 So when you started, the hospital was based at the old Radcliffe and we were out of the slaid for inpatients. 354 00:42:30,410 --> 00:42:37,200 What changed? And eventually, of course, the infirmary closed and the John Radcliffe started. 355 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:42,090 And you got patients there. Did that work? That that work much better? 356 00:42:42,090 --> 00:42:54,930 It was much bigger. And it brought us, all of us, a bit more centrally into the centre of Oxford, Oxford Medicine. 357 00:42:54,930 --> 00:43:03,990 By that time, I've become, I think, chairman of I was on the medicine board of the Faculty of Medicine, 358 00:43:03,990 --> 00:43:07,490 so-called Faculty of Medicine, vice chairman of that. Right. 359 00:43:07,490 --> 00:43:13,290 I got quite involved with the John Radcliffe IV has I'd had a World Congress there and so on. 360 00:43:13,290 --> 00:43:24,990 So the outpatients worked very well. Can you just contrast, Terrence, the patients in the old Radcliffe with the facilities in the new John Radcliffe? 361 00:43:24,990 --> 00:43:33,420 My memory about Radcliffe is of tiled floors and a table and patients all able to hear each other. 362 00:43:33,420 --> 00:43:44,250 Is that right? Did it work? It was it was much better, it wasn't it wasn't staggeringly it's looking better, but it was it was much better. 363 00:43:44,250 --> 00:43:50,200 And we were able to have more sessions at the infirmary. 364 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:56,170 There was only one way to a few moments for our patients, which you had to share with everybody else. 365 00:43:56,170 --> 00:44:05,530 Yes, including sexually transmitted diseases, I might mention sexually transmitted diseases worldwide, managed by dermatology, 366 00:44:05,530 --> 00:44:10,390 but not in this country because we have been the reality in this country and 367 00:44:10,390 --> 00:44:16,240 sexually transmitted diseases have to share with us at the Vatican infirmary space. 368 00:44:16,240 --> 00:44:21,400 But once we got to the John Radcliffe, they stayed down in the back infirmary. 369 00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:25,660 Right. And we didn't we didn't have so many people. 370 00:44:25,660 --> 00:44:32,900 So we had to place more or less to ourselves. Whereas in the Vatican family, we only had it for one day. 371 00:44:32,900 --> 00:44:37,330 Yeah, right. As in the John Radcliffe, we really had it. 372 00:44:37,330 --> 00:44:42,770 But any day we liked. So we had only one day of clinics in the old Radcliffe. 373 00:44:42,770 --> 00:44:49,960 That was it. Outpatient clinics. Yes. Yes, I think it was, yes. 374 00:44:49,960 --> 00:45:03,160 Because things have changed a lot in dermatology because in those days. We had our surgical and I work clinic at the Slade Hospital, right, 375 00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:13,380 and we kept the clinic at the state hospital and we kept our surgical session at the state hospital, but it was only one week. 376 00:45:13,380 --> 00:45:18,510 Tell me about the surgery facilities at the Slade Terrance. What was the theatre? 377 00:45:18,510 --> 00:45:35,280 We had a theatre, a table. I used to go to Holwell to get liquid nitrogen used and we had a session for water using liquid nitrogen. 378 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:40,860 Yes. And we then went on and did some surgery for about two hours. 379 00:45:40,860 --> 00:45:49,080 So that the surgery when you say we had to see, I said, can you just describe just for the listeners what what you mean by the word theatre? 380 00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:58,710 Because it well, it it was a room which had washing facilities and two tables. 381 00:45:58,710 --> 00:46:03,930 And that's all we didn't have anaesthetics or anything like that. 382 00:46:03,930 --> 00:46:07,870 Well, we had local anaesthetic. We had local anaesthetic. 383 00:46:07,870 --> 00:46:10,860 Yes, but when it was hot, I have a recollection. 384 00:46:10,860 --> 00:46:24,190 We opened the doors to the garden, let the sun in the area and that sort of thing is just wiped clean room, very different to what we have now. 385 00:46:24,190 --> 00:46:30,510 I mean, there were two of us on for one morning a week doing surgery. 386 00:46:30,510 --> 00:46:37,000 Nowadays, there are 15 dermatologists in a full time surgery at the general. 387 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:41,440 And when you were doing your surgery back then, did you wear a mask? 388 00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:49,770 Did you wear gloves? No, no, no, no, no. That's something else to dealing with warts, which doesn't need anything. 389 00:46:49,770 --> 00:46:54,510 And we were dealing with curtilage of rodent ulcers. 390 00:46:54,510 --> 00:46:59,760 Yes. If they were big, they went to plastic surgery. 391 00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:06,810 Yes. So we did have a combined clinic, both with radiotherapy and with with plastic surgery. 392 00:47:06,810 --> 00:47:14,820 Yes. I think that's very good. And then the other thing that's changed over the years when you were a consultant was you got more König. 393 00:47:14,820 --> 00:47:19,890 So Romney came in to replace Rudnic, but then I joined you. 394 00:47:19,890 --> 00:47:23,350 It was quite a long time. 395 00:47:23,350 --> 00:47:31,350 Before we got Fanfarlo was an Oscar and we could only get her part time, she had to work at Wickham and Amersham as well as with us. 396 00:47:31,350 --> 00:47:35,920 She was only part time of us and she wanted to do research. Yes. 397 00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:41,800 So the amount of time she had for clinical work with us was quite small. 398 00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:51,710 But she was a third consultant. What we shouldn't forget is that we now got the stage where we had not only a registrar but a senior registrar. 399 00:47:51,710 --> 00:47:57,620 We had both right. And they were all excellent and they were all capable of innovation. 400 00:47:57,620 --> 00:48:05,080 And I think each one of you, including yourself, took on a new topic for development and became well known for it. 401 00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:14,240 Yes. You yourself helped, I think, of lawyers and witnesses and then took on relationships with the medical school. 402 00:48:14,240 --> 00:48:23,330 Yes, other piece of became a loan for famous anthologised and so on. 403 00:48:23,330 --> 00:48:29,910 Sheila Pob. Came with was to actually be before that nonsense. 404 00:48:29,910 --> 00:48:35,340 She had worked with Colin in Africa, right. 405 00:48:35,340 --> 00:48:40,980 And she came to us and eventually she came as a senior registrar. 406 00:48:40,980 --> 00:48:47,220 These were all part time married when we were very lucky that we had Rosemary developing 407 00:48:47,220 --> 00:48:53,250 the idea that married women should be able to get work even if they were pregnant. 408 00:48:53,250 --> 00:49:05,430 And we benefited from that enormously and a lot of our senior individuals with part time married women and very good ones that yes, 409 00:49:05,430 --> 00:49:12,780 so they they felt the dramaturgy, the whole thing has changed, I think, because we have now so many more women. 410 00:49:12,780 --> 00:49:18,480 Yes. And dermatologists nationally. Internationally, too, I suppose. 411 00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:27,340 I mean, lawyers, regardless of a suitable job for women, because the only thing would not getting you up at night and literally. 412 00:49:27,340 --> 00:49:35,550 Yes. And pull you back to your relationships with infectious diseases who were on the same side of the slide was David Warilla. 413 00:49:35,550 --> 00:49:43,890 Who would you have been working with there or was that Waran? Was it back when he was the medical officer of health for Oxygen? 414 00:49:43,890 --> 00:49:50,580 And he was quite an academic man and he was an examiner for. 415 00:49:50,580 --> 00:49:53,310 Yes. Bacteriology and things like that. 416 00:49:53,310 --> 00:50:07,360 And they had initially that they had the only cases of leprosy until we had our ward and we got to our unit for leprosy. 417 00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:13,710 Six beds. Yes. So we worked with them. But within a year, which we found us in, made you no longer infectious. 418 00:50:13,710 --> 00:50:18,720 Yes. You cleared your nose. And that's one thing. There was no dust on the floor with leprosy in it. 419 00:50:18,720 --> 00:50:25,740 So we turned the whole thing into the whole of the embedded unit for leprosy. 420 00:50:25,740 --> 00:50:27,090 We turned it into research, 421 00:50:27,090 --> 00:50:38,910 including bringing in Professor of Anatomy Gamwell Patel up with his electron microscope and his people in the infectious diseases unit. 422 00:50:38,910 --> 00:50:49,680 We had a good relationship with them. I suppose we would visit them not once a month, but see something they were interested in, right. 423 00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:53,860 But you weren't collaborating on the leprosy research, particularly weren't collaborating. 424 00:50:53,860 --> 00:51:00,390 No, no, indeed. It was more difficult than that because the leprosy in this country was, 425 00:51:00,390 --> 00:51:10,280 from the government point of view, is run by a man called Cockram, who spent most of his time in India. 426 00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:22,880 And when we had a patient who was making death AIDS and had multiple with leprosy. 427 00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:29,570 The medical officers health questioned whether it was safe to make that case and whether we 428 00:51:29,570 --> 00:51:37,550 wouldn't end up with thousands of people in Oxford with leprosy of the year from death AIDS, 429 00:51:37,550 --> 00:51:43,130 Kaufman said, oh, it isn't really a problem. I'll be back with you in six months time. 430 00:51:43,130 --> 00:51:57,290 Let's discuss it then. Didn't see CNN and the full medical officer of health was very bamboozled by the whole business of how you should proceed. 431 00:51:57,290 --> 00:52:05,870 You were able to step in and sort it out, were you? Well, we once we got to the events and had very good evidence that the activity. 432 00:52:05,870 --> 00:52:10,670 OK, I'm going to move sideways again because another of your skills, 433 00:52:10,670 --> 00:52:19,640 alongside your dermatology and your wound healing on your piano is your water colour paintings, which are decorated many of the hospitals in Oxford. 434 00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:23,180 How did you get into watercolours, Terence? 435 00:52:23,180 --> 00:52:32,760 My father pointed out that, as I mentioned earlier, I had been to many schools, some of which were quite arty, 436 00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:41,600 which was not a school, for instance, so I became quite interested in art in general. 437 00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:43,220 Looking at that and that's all, 438 00:52:43,220 --> 00:52:52,790 but I didn't really take up painting until I was in Japan and realised that the way the Japanese paint it was something that I thought I could copy. 439 00:52:52,790 --> 00:53:00,390 And I began initially painting bit like a Japanese with charcoal pens and things, 440 00:53:00,390 --> 00:53:07,010 and eventually quite successful as I'm sitting here on my first painting is just behind me, 441 00:53:07,010 --> 00:53:15,670 actually, where I used a bit of the Japanese way of painting and then. 442 00:53:15,670 --> 00:53:21,590 It became. Something I did, I used to do to, but they've got big. 443 00:53:21,590 --> 00:53:34,070 And I also became I was asked, I think, by the John directly to be in charge of the Dekel, huh? 444 00:53:34,070 --> 00:53:39,210 And I did that with Manelli, who is a surgeon, many languages morally. 445 00:53:39,210 --> 00:53:46,100 And I used to go to London to art galleries and things. They used to buy things and. 446 00:53:46,100 --> 00:53:51,090 Some of the pending stuff in the fridge I bought with my late. 447 00:53:51,090 --> 00:54:04,930 He introduced me to want to artists, and by that time Green College had started and they needed an art gallery to say I was involved in that and. 448 00:54:04,930 --> 00:54:11,980 The corridors in the Jumblat Live and at the church are enormously long, 449 00:54:11,980 --> 00:54:17,980 and we couldn't afford to decorate them with expensive things from London galleries. 450 00:54:17,980 --> 00:54:24,520 So I took on a new idea, which is to buy very cheaply Japanese wallpapers, 451 00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:31,870 get my son to make cheap frames and wear the Commodore down right down to the transplant unit unit. 452 00:54:31,870 --> 00:54:39,280 And we know the area is decorated by wallpaper and the Japanese wrapping papers. 453 00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:45,640 It looks so successful they're quite attractive that I took Thai silk scarves and 454 00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:53,760 painted them and then took I think it was cushions and Indian cushions covers. 455 00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:58,420 We turned them into art. So we looked at cheap ways. 456 00:54:58,420 --> 00:55:04,330 We got quite a lot of artists, proper artists to donate to us. 457 00:55:04,330 --> 00:55:14,560 Some quite good artists did that. And I began to put up some of my paintings when we got a new building, I began to put some of my paintings up there. 458 00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:17,670 What did you think of that they used to be a sculpture outside the door. 459 00:55:17,670 --> 00:55:24,210 I'm not sure if that thing like a windmill that world around when I got that and of course, is fiercely, 460 00:55:24,210 --> 00:55:33,190 fiercely criticised by the Arctic male for spending money, but had to point out the money didn't come from patient care. 461 00:55:33,190 --> 00:55:40,020 And actually. Apart from the fact that it needed replacing every now and again, because the sales, 462 00:55:40,020 --> 00:55:49,800 it was a windmill actually copied from the dome, told you it bombed in Miami, it needed replacing about every three years. 463 00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:57,950 And that was a bit expensive. But in spite of the criticism from the actual mail, it became the place where everybody took photographs. 464 00:55:57,950 --> 00:56:03,830 If there's any photograph of anything, John Radcliffe, it was always by that sale, including by the Oxford Mail, 465 00:56:03,830 --> 00:56:10,580 and it was played and became a feature of John down-market quite important, one iconic. 466 00:56:10,580 --> 00:56:14,510 And the other thing, of course, the journalist passes that garden at the front. 467 00:56:14,510 --> 00:56:19,010 Were you involved with that as well? Because I know you have a love of gardening. 468 00:56:19,010 --> 00:56:24,050 Yes, I wasn't particularly involved in that one, but I wasn't involved in that one, that was. 469 00:56:24,050 --> 00:56:28,550 But but you had a garden in the new dermatology unit? Oh, yes. 470 00:56:28,550 --> 00:56:38,300 Yes, of course. We had the garden slate and slide from time to time when they were trying to cut down the hospital, useless hospitals. 471 00:56:38,300 --> 00:56:42,620 We had lots of campaigns to try and keep it because patients liked it so much, 472 00:56:42,620 --> 00:56:47,390 because the gardens and we we realised that guns are extremely important. 473 00:56:47,390 --> 00:56:52,670 And they continued. And I published articles on the importance of gardens for health and trees and so on, 474 00:56:52,670 --> 00:56:57,150 have been published a few articles like that because it is important for health. 475 00:56:57,150 --> 00:57:03,330 And so when we moved to the Churchill, we also had a garden built a garden there. 476 00:57:03,330 --> 00:57:08,210 Yes. Well, Terence, it's been a great pleasure talking to you. 477 00:57:08,210 --> 00:57:13,930 Is there anything else I should ask you? Is there anything else you'd like to tell me about? 478 00:57:13,930 --> 00:57:23,060 I don't know what else we want to be talking about. I wish I would have mentioned that all the time was that I was there. 479 00:57:23,060 --> 00:57:29,500 Mr. Haines, who was the chief nurse at the V.A. at the hospital when we first started. 480 00:57:29,500 --> 00:57:38,840 I was also with St John Ambulance and he asked he asked me to do some lectures, footage on the ambulance. 481 00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:50,870 This led me to become a so-called know what they call the surgeon to one to the one down and had ABS, which is the St. Paul area. 482 00:57:50,870 --> 00:57:55,670 And directly, I was appointed as members. 483 00:57:55,670 --> 00:58:01,100 And John Adams suddenly got a call from London saying Churchill had died. 484 00:58:01,100 --> 00:58:06,830 Would I'd manage his funeral arrangements in Woodstock. 485 00:58:06,830 --> 00:58:17,150 A bloody. And so they had to get me into a uniform for that hat that was big enough and it was a business business, 486 00:58:17,150 --> 00:58:22,670 and eventually we I didn't know what I was doing in the army. 487 00:58:22,670 --> 00:58:27,770 A little bit about mess mess injuries and the like. 488 00:58:27,770 --> 00:58:36,970 So I set up I requisitioned a house in Bladen as a hospital for all the casualties that are likely to occur. 489 00:58:36,970 --> 00:58:42,280 And. Then she got my uniform. 490 00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:47,170 There were about 3000 police and there were about 200 civil defence leaders, 491 00:58:47,170 --> 00:58:51,700 lots of Boy Scouts and like, but Mrs. Churchill said that should be a private funeral. 492 00:58:51,700 --> 00:58:56,980 We had a very big funeral in London that morning. It was very cold. No one turned up at all. 493 00:58:56,980 --> 00:59:08,110 So absolutely nothing in the way of cases. We had this huge house was not turned into a hospital and all this soup that had to be eaten. 494 00:59:08,110 --> 00:59:18,010 I did see Churchill go by on the very gradually and I became in charge of St John Ambulance for the whole of Oxfordshire. 495 00:59:18,010 --> 00:59:25,540 That meant that I was basically in charge of such things as preparations for war, 496 00:59:25,540 --> 00:59:33,430 because there was a time when we were very close to war with our of and I wanted someone to help him. 497 00:59:33,430 --> 00:59:40,510 And we had an underground bunker in Wood Eton, where we could plan war. 498 00:59:40,510 --> 00:59:45,460 And so Alexander and I planned what we're going to do with the populations of Oxford. 499 00:59:45,460 --> 00:59:47,770 I worked with the Red Cross on this. 500 00:59:47,770 --> 00:59:54,460 I got a little bit of practise because when I started and John Adams was and was in charge of the ambulance service, 501 00:59:54,460 --> 00:59:59,240 so I found myself with an ambulance service. I didn't have a good administrators. 502 00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:01,630 I didn't really have to do anything about it until he died. 503 01:00:01,630 --> 01:00:09,160 And I had to give the after the operation, but I had very little to do with the ambulance service unless it was a strike. 504 01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:15,970 And when there was a strike that occurred about two times, I had to provide the ambulance service once and John Ambulance and Red Cross. 505 01:00:15,970 --> 01:00:20,620 So I was in charge of that. And also we had illegal public festivals. 506 01:00:20,620 --> 01:00:26,380 Right. Which I had to organise every two weeks with the health service. 507 01:00:26,380 --> 01:00:33,730 Well, with David Waring and people, we had to organise the health service and the John Edwards people. 508 01:00:33,730 --> 01:00:43,300 So it was I was quite busy on them. Well, the knighthood, I think you've had an incredible life. 509 01:00:43,300 --> 01:00:50,620 Parents, you've done so much from a a slightly inauspicious start and then progressing through to become a leading dermatologist. 510 01:00:50,620 --> 01:00:56,180 It's really been a huge pleasure talking to you. And I'm sure I just say that I haven't stopped. 511 01:00:56,180 --> 01:01:01,690 No doubt is now 20 to 25 years or so since I retired. 512 01:01:01,690 --> 01:01:08,470 And I'm just as busy zooming to India, China and Pakistan. 513 01:01:08,470 --> 01:01:11,760 Yes, I've continued to work internationally. 514 01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:21,880 Of course I gave up and do you and I gave up all my connexions with dermatology in this country and it hasn't stopped me elsewhere. 515 01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:25,610 And you've got the friends of NOTAM Gardens as well. We haven't really touched on that. 516 01:01:25,610 --> 01:01:28,790 All the activities that you've done for the alumni, that's Green College, 517 01:01:28,790 --> 01:01:37,360 because I became a member of the Green College World and the Green College, and then John Walton asked me to take over. 518 01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:43,080 He had his office in thirty Garden is good old man, so he asked me to take that over. 519 01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:47,260 I've gradually developed that into a quite good place. Good. 520 01:01:47,260 --> 01:01:49,603 Well, thank you so much for talking to us.