1 00:00:04,500 --> 00:00:11,430 Well, Mike, if you'd like to begin talking away about what you're interested in, read to me very well. 2 00:00:11,430 --> 00:00:24,750 I came to Oxford in 1956 to the Department of Pathology as a graduate assistant, and in those days there are very few medical students. 3 00:00:24,750 --> 00:00:37,440 There are about 30 and we had them and you had a tutorial system whereby they one or two or a lot of to you. 4 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:49,110 And I had interesting people, actually, I had Gath and Grimley, Evans and Bell and Peter Lewis, who is the cleverest chap I ever taught. 5 00:00:49,110 --> 00:00:56,220 And also that man who's become the professor at the Brompton. 6 00:00:56,220 --> 00:01:02,160 I can't remember his name. Gosh, it's called nefarious. Anyway. Keeps sorry. 7 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:07,260 No, no, no, no, no. He's he's a pharmacologist, actually, but he's professor of medicine. 8 00:01:07,260 --> 00:01:14,130 Yeah. And actually, I come from Bristol because everybody looked down on. 9 00:01:14,130 --> 00:01:23,070 But actually the system of teaching at Bristol was I felt very superior to the aid operation in August. 10 00:01:23,070 --> 00:01:34,680 But because they had a set course in pathology with proper lab facilities and everything that went on for two years, 11 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:39,990 really during the whole of the ball during the first part of the clinical course. 12 00:01:39,990 --> 00:01:49,770 Anyway, in nineteen sixty, I left, I left Oxford, really because I've done up. 13 00:01:49,770 --> 00:01:58,830 I was always interested in lungs and I'd done a thesis on emphysema and chronic bronchitis and asthma, 14 00:01:58,830 --> 00:02:02,250 and I was asked to go to Columbia University, so I took it. 15 00:02:02,250 --> 00:02:07,950 But luckily, just before I went off, I got a consultant job. 16 00:02:07,950 --> 00:02:12,330 Now, actually, that what depressed me about Oxford was the facility. 17 00:02:12,330 --> 00:02:15,090 The pathology facilities were primitive then. 18 00:02:15,090 --> 00:02:22,950 I mean, I worked in a cupboard, literally in a cupboard next to the laboratory, and there was no window or anything. 19 00:02:22,950 --> 00:02:29,850 It was it was very, very primitive indeed. And I presume this is confidential. 20 00:02:29,850 --> 00:02:42,600 But but you see, Kadhal was the consultant, and he left at about 10 o'clock every morning having done two coroner's postmortems or more. 21 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:48,630 And Rob Smith didn't do any of the routine work, and as far as I know, didn't do any teaching. 22 00:02:48,630 --> 00:02:54,420 The teaching that he did was an occasional lecture. 23 00:02:54,420 --> 00:03:04,170 Well, I was interested in pulmonary pathology and I went off to work the cardiopulmonary division at Columbia University, 24 00:03:04,170 --> 00:03:09,150 which was in Bellevue Hospital, and Richards and who got the Nobel prise. 25 00:03:09,150 --> 00:03:16,500 I see. And it was it was really a very formative time and I they wanted me to stay. 26 00:03:16,500 --> 00:03:21,960 But foolishly I had signed a contract saying I was going to come back to Oxford. 27 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:30,900 So I came back to Oxford and I struggled away as best I could now in 19. 28 00:03:30,900 --> 00:03:40,650 The colonel is very friendly with Pickering and he on came over because his daughter was medical. 29 00:03:40,650 --> 00:03:46,460 I was a student of modern languages student at Somerville Under in its stock and its stock. 30 00:03:46,460 --> 00:03:56,580 He was her tutor and so he took us all out to to dinner, to that place in all day. 31 00:03:56,580 --> 00:04:00,390 So it was the Elizabeth of more than one occasion. 32 00:04:00,390 --> 00:04:06,900 Anyway, he he apparently went to see George Pickering and said, Look, what are you doing about Daniel? 33 00:04:06,900 --> 00:04:13,350 He's left and he's doing all sorts of horrible things he doesn't want to do. 34 00:04:13,350 --> 00:04:25,800 And George then in 1964 was asked to form a committee to found the medical school at Nottingham, 35 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:32,790 and he asked me to be on that committee, and that's how I sort of became interested in medical education. 36 00:04:32,790 --> 00:04:45,420 And there were Janet Vaughan was on that committee and Vaughan Williams, but there were lots of people from outside as well, Cranston and so on. 37 00:04:45,420 --> 00:04:52,230 The thing I remember most about that committee was set up a saying of George Pickering, which I think was absolutely true. 38 00:04:52,230 --> 00:04:58,770 He said what you've got to remember about teaching medical students is that 50 per cent of what you tell them is wrong. 39 00:04:58,770 --> 00:05:04,010 But unfortunately. You can't tell which is 50 percent anyway, 40 00:05:04,010 --> 00:05:16,220 that and then and when that that report was finished and instantly Vaughan Williams wrote the rotor he was, he was a very, very good draughtsman. 41 00:05:16,220 --> 00:05:22,090 And he asked me to become director of clinical studies in 1967. 42 00:05:22,090 --> 00:05:33,880 And they were worried about the numbers. And one of the things I instigated was a letter to every medical tutor in Cambridge, 43 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:38,950 offering them the facilities in August, and we did boost the numbers. 44 00:05:38,950 --> 00:05:51,070 That was something that I was never given credit for. But I was asked to is that it was a time of flux because the honours school was it was altering. 45 00:05:51,070 --> 00:05:59,320 The final on School of Animal Physiology was being abolished and they were having a broader spectrum of subjects. 46 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:14,410 And I was asked to report on this and what I suggest should be done that it's coincided at the time of the Royal Commission on Medical Education, 47 00:06:14,410 --> 00:06:20,710 and I wrote this report, which it was in, that was in 1969. 48 00:06:20,710 --> 00:06:28,930 I think I don't know if you want me to go through that, but we're not to repeat it. 49 00:06:28,930 --> 00:06:45,580 No, the main the main is. Well, the thing the thing was, as you could see, the defects in the system are I felt that the clinical course was too long. 50 00:06:45,580 --> 00:06:51,340 The royal commission recommended two years after, and I think that was probably right. 51 00:06:51,340 --> 00:07:00,140 But there were five main defects which I put down, and the first one was there was no formal teaching in special pathology. 52 00:07:00,140 --> 00:07:10,060 Mm-Hmm. And the second one was that I thought it was an uneven balance in the distribution of clinical teaching. 53 00:07:10,060 --> 00:07:18,750 Thus, obstetrics and gynaecology had 16 weeks, which is the same amount as a general medicine and surgery. 54 00:07:18,750 --> 00:07:29,410 You couldn't become and deliver a baby in practise without having done an obstetrics job and done a course in special, specialised cost. 55 00:07:29,410 --> 00:07:38,800 And then there were eight weeks were given to the accident service when many of students reported to me that they didn't have much to do. 56 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:46,780 They were under employed. And then there was also. The great point of contention was the revision course, 57 00:07:46,780 --> 00:07:55,810 and both the son and myself thought this was a cram course for the final examination and encourages 58 00:07:55,810 --> 00:08:00,670 those students who are saying claim to take an easy life right up to the last possible moment. 59 00:08:00,670 --> 00:08:01,720 And it did. 60 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:10,930 It did enable some people to pass finals who would otherwise fail and whose general conduct joining the clinical course had not been satisfactory. 61 00:08:10,930 --> 00:08:18,080 And then we felt there was little attention given to newer methods of teaching perhaps knew as wrong. 62 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:18,970 But anyway, 63 00:08:18,970 --> 00:08:30,670 there was a considerable amount of the instruction in special subjects could be done on a seminar basis and to to bring about these changes, 64 00:08:30,670 --> 00:08:37,270 I suggested a clinical course which is outlined in this thing here. 65 00:08:37,270 --> 00:08:43,510 But there was the question of examinations that was a great thing, 66 00:08:43,510 --> 00:08:55,690 and there was a general desire to to abolish the examination system as it was and do this continuous assessment business. 67 00:08:55,690 --> 00:09:02,560 But unfortunately, there was. Nobody really define what they meant by a continuous assessment. 68 00:09:02,560 --> 00:09:10,840 And I I drawn up the thing about it. 69 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:19,180 So that sort of set the agenda for the fact that they've got to get some sort 70 00:09:19,180 --> 00:09:27,160 of teaching lab and a patient and suggested going to the Commonwealth Fund. 71 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:31,660 And I wrote out a case for that which I haven't got here. 72 00:09:31,660 --> 00:09:39,970 But anyway, they sent it off to the Commonwealth Fund under the signature of Beeston and Pickering. 73 00:09:39,970 --> 00:09:52,750 And they turned up, Trump says they now haven't got all that and it was a good building and it was almost complete before the next. 74 00:09:52,750 --> 00:10:00,300 The next thing I'm going to tell you was that Rob Smith, you see, objected to the whole thing. 75 00:10:00,300 --> 00:10:07,440 Absolutely terrible. And we had by this time, Dole was a professor. 76 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:11,580 I think he came in and he came in 1978 A. Yes. 77 00:10:11,580 --> 00:10:15,840 Yeah, that's how he came to understand. And he set up a working party. 78 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:23,160 You see, when all then this was partly for them is this little discussed and also the fact that, 79 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,700 you know, the preclinical and clinical people will say wide apart. 80 00:10:26,700 --> 00:10:33,840 And so and we used to meet every Saturday morning to discuss the future of the medical school. 81 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:42,240 And the first thing I remember was that we interviewed Smith because I made a listing and he complained, 82 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:55,390 of course, bitterly that he wasn't given a chair. And of course, nowadays everybody seems to have a check, but very, very stay there. 83 00:10:55,390 --> 00:10:58,150 You know, it was a special thing. 84 00:10:58,150 --> 00:11:07,000 And he hadn't really done enough now to, I mean, he had got the brain and everything, but he never did anything in the Department of Teaching. 85 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,690 He just thanked his own fellow nobody. We never saw him. 86 00:11:10,690 --> 00:11:18,520 I mean, never took this. Maybe then, but I always understood he did a lot in the classification understanding of lymphoma. 87 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:22,210 He did. But sort of he stopped. 88 00:11:22,210 --> 00:11:27,310 He stopped and really stopped in 1978. I can understand that. 89 00:11:27,310 --> 00:11:32,920 Just to go with one of three things make the I can remember lunchtime mortem demonstration. 90 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:37,480 Yes. By Rob Smith and Codell. Yes. Now, the conditions were terrible. 91 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:42,700 Yes, they were. Somebody else has poured scorn on the way they were conducted. 92 00:11:42,700 --> 00:11:46,570 Yes, I agree with I did do that. Yeah, they were. They were. 93 00:11:46,570 --> 00:11:51,220 That was a bandleader. And that was in great contrast to what happened in Bristol, actually. 94 00:11:51,220 --> 00:11:56,780 Well, you know, their personal demonstrations were poor and the personal terms went well down. 95 00:11:56,780 --> 00:12:01,270 They wanted to have the pathology centre stage of the intellect. 96 00:12:01,270 --> 00:12:09,400 He did. I didn't. But now I understood that he wanted to shorten the course, as you've said, as you wanted, 97 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:14,200 and it was the surgeons who stopped him because they wanted people who were trapped as it were. 98 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:20,500 Well, I don't know about that. I felt there was a tremendous conservatism. 99 00:12:20,500 --> 00:12:30,360 I mean. I don't know how confidential this is, but I I can remember letting him, for instance, saying it was good enough for me. 100 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:34,950 I said, you know, that sort of thing and I see a lot of that went on. 101 00:12:34,950 --> 00:12:41,730 And Maloney was, of course, desperately awful, terrible, and Corey had gone by then. 102 00:12:41,730 --> 00:12:46,770 That was one of the things I noticed about Oxford was a car anyway. 103 00:12:46,770 --> 00:12:50,160 One of the things you and the Korean. Oh, I think he can. 104 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:54,450 He left DNA. He was a terrible surgeon. I remember him saying. 105 00:12:54,450 --> 00:13:00,420 I remember him saying to me he used to have me over to do frozen sections of the Oakland hospital. 106 00:13:00,420 --> 00:13:06,480 No payment, of course, and he would always talk about his prowess. 107 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:14,010 And he said, you know, whole state run saw me do a mastectomy. And he said, Corey, I've never seen anyone do anything like that. 108 00:13:14,010 --> 00:13:22,110 And I felt very gratified because it was not the ironic side of the situation was not mentioned. 109 00:13:22,110 --> 00:13:30,300 No, anyway. Yes. What I meant was I will be basically yes. 110 00:13:30,300 --> 00:13:37,500 Of course, they were all against that. And Rob said it was dead against the whole thing I did against having the teaching where he was located. 111 00:13:37,500 --> 00:13:39,930 And yeah, he was completely anti everything. 112 00:13:39,930 --> 00:13:46,800 And no, I thought to that Pickering was the guy who'd gone to Cambridge and sort of recruited, but really, 113 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:52,410 it was your race and that one was actually and actually, I think the letter was dictated by me. 114 00:13:52,410 --> 00:13:55,710 But it was, I think it was signed by Brown. Yes, I remember. 115 00:13:55,710 --> 00:13:59,970 But I did that and I was never given any credit for that at all. 116 00:13:59,970 --> 00:14:07,170 And you, you succeeded, John. But no, yes, I did. And yeah, that's never happened in that time. 117 00:14:07,170 --> 00:14:11,100 And didn't it? Yes, it did. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 118 00:14:11,100 --> 00:14:16,210 OK. Yes. 119 00:14:16,210 --> 00:14:24,460 Well, yes. Just see if I got it. Yes, he hit Rosetta's destructive right the way through. 120 00:14:24,460 --> 00:14:32,860 I must say this I this is what I might ever say about Rob since I was quite fond of him and he was in a way very good to me. 121 00:14:32,860 --> 00:14:35,890 But he was absolutely hopeless about this. 122 00:14:35,890 --> 00:14:45,520 I mean, I can remember in my diary, I've got a terrible interview I had with him when he and Canadell wanted to get rid of Winifred Grey. 123 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:51,400 Do you know Winifred right now? Okay? Well, she became luckily we. 124 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:53,330 I got her back. 125 00:14:53,330 --> 00:15:05,620 She went out to high Wickham, and then she came back and became my closest colleague and is the primary person on exfoliated cytology in this country, 126 00:15:05,620 --> 00:15:10,630 actually, and written the standard book and everything else but they wanted. She was a marvellous pathologist. 127 00:15:10,630 --> 00:15:18,870 They want to get rid of her because she was a rather diffident sort of person and didn't so stand up to them. 128 00:15:18,870 --> 00:15:22,300 Now what else have I got here? Well, then the doll committee. 129 00:15:22,300 --> 00:15:31,840 The first thing the doll committee did was first thing we did was consider the chair of clinical pharmacology, and this may be of interest to you. 130 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:37,210 We decided to accept it and from the grant from the MRC and whoever it was, 131 00:15:37,210 --> 00:15:46,780 they were going to give the money and Dole had selected the candidate who is going to be dollari throughout the course. 132 00:15:46,780 --> 00:15:52,780 We got grants in, thank God instead. Yes, that was that. 133 00:15:52,780 --> 00:16:02,330 Now as to the pathology course, they wanted me to become the whatever it was, the head of the taking. 134 00:16:02,330 --> 00:16:08,770 And I didn't want to do that because I thought I felt I felt there was too much of this people antagonistic staff. 135 00:16:08,770 --> 00:16:17,340 I got fed up with it. And so it went ahead and actually it was quite successful. 136 00:16:17,340 --> 00:16:22,720 All right. We had I think they did quite well that course that the students liked it. 137 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:34,720 And I don't know what happened when Magee came along. He took the whole thing off, I think, but it was it was quite well done and they had to run it. 138 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:43,060 Well, what happened was I sort of supervised generally, but we appointed Dessau as the man and then a Bradley. 139 00:16:43,060 --> 00:16:46,960 David Bradley Yes, they came and Bradley did rather well. 140 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:51,400 Actually, I thought he was all too good. Erm, then he went off to tropical medicine. 141 00:16:51,400 --> 00:17:01,600 And then of course, there. Then the other thing that was considered was the planning of the new hospital, which I didn't have anything to do. 142 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,720 It didn't really want to have anything to do with, actually. 143 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:15,820 And of course, there was David Timms and there was that wonderful woman who was the sister on the gynaecology ward. 144 00:17:15,820 --> 00:17:19,030 Shazam was just, oh, she was splendid. 145 00:17:19,030 --> 00:17:31,030 She really knew her stuff, but she went off to marry somebody else who who, who, who got a manor house out at that Whitney and the three boys. 146 00:17:31,030 --> 00:17:37,360 He was a widower, and I see her from time to time. I cannot remember her name, but she was a rather jolly good person. 147 00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:47,740 And then it was to this hardshell who retired under the circumstances, which we needn't enlarge on. 148 00:17:47,740 --> 00:17:57,880 But anyway, they should really slightly scuppered pathology because they went down to the basement, 149 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,780 you know, and and it wasn't even in their windows or anything. 150 00:18:01,780 --> 00:18:06,880 And I remember the pus of the matron or whoever it was. 151 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,960 I think it was a matron who said, Oh, it doesn't matter. You can have pictures on the walls. 152 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:16,360 But that was a poor thing because technicians don't like working in electric light. 153 00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:22,300 And it's very this fluorescent lighting is very tiring. 154 00:18:22,300 --> 00:18:25,840 Yes. What else about pathology tips? Was it? 155 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:32,380 Now he was involved early, but I thought he had given up and Joe Biden, OK, so bad knock was on it too. 156 00:18:32,380 --> 00:18:37,990 But bad? Not really. I know he will. I think he was a figure on the scene. 157 00:18:37,990 --> 00:18:42,880 I don't think he did. David Tibbs was still very much plugged in. He was right. 158 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:51,920 You know it was. It was Tim's Hodgson and Badenoch and this girl who is a real, matronly figure. 159 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:58,520 She wasn't the matron, actually. She was a really tough cookie and it is very nice person. 160 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:02,500 I used to see her quite a bit, but I I haven't seen her for a while. 161 00:19:02,500 --> 00:19:09,040 What else am I going to say? Well, about one, of course, the medicine board. 162 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,800 That's another thing that was absolutely hopeless. John. 163 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:19,340 French was the chairman, he wasn't very good, died suddenly poor fellow. 164 00:19:19,340 --> 00:19:26,390 But of course, the preclinical and clinical people didn't seem to get on and they they ran us down. 165 00:19:26,390 --> 00:19:32,450 You see the clinical school, they didn't even even got to hear Harry's all the clinical school at that time. 166 00:19:32,450 --> 00:19:43,010 And that was difficult. And Dole actually was the chap who brought it all together and had a proper board concerned 167 00:19:43,010 --> 00:19:50,660 with clinical medicine that was good at the Nuffield Committee was another thing. 168 00:19:50,660 --> 00:19:54,170 Well, I'll tell you something that was very bad, that this was very bad. 169 00:19:54,170 --> 00:20:02,870 This was sort of in the 1950s, late 1950s, the pathology Apollo appointed people as graduate assistants, 170 00:20:02,870 --> 00:20:10,010 which of which I was one, and I'd come from a university appointment in Bristol. 171 00:20:10,010 --> 00:20:16,310 And there you did have time for research and teaching. 172 00:20:16,310 --> 00:20:22,250 But the point is that the graduate assistant was they were paid less than the registrars, 173 00:20:22,250 --> 00:20:30,140 but they did more of the routine work and it was a criminal state of affairs, actually. 174 00:20:30,140 --> 00:20:38,540 But when in those days with the hierarchical structure, one didn't want to complain, but it was a it was a very bad system indeed. 175 00:20:38,540 --> 00:20:44,790 And actually, I've often wondered that Tony Allen personally, I've often wondered whether I should have stayed in Oxford, 176 00:20:44,790 --> 00:20:55,340 but I did because I was offered to go down to Bristol on several occasions and also when when the Nottingham school was founded, 177 00:20:55,340 --> 00:21:02,420 George said, I could have the chair there if I wanted, and I didn't. And well, in Leicester, too, if I didn't die, I'm not. 178 00:21:02,420 --> 00:21:11,450 I'm not very keen on titles. I don't think I think this is not a good thing that. 179 00:21:11,450 --> 00:21:23,510 The people doing the the course you ask rather well, took did the bacteriology sharp and Emerson did the haematology and the and the group did they? 180 00:21:23,510 --> 00:21:29,210 The history has the pathology and there was a nice chap who did the biochemistry. 181 00:21:29,210 --> 00:21:33,200 His accolade did a bad chemistry. Yeah. 182 00:21:33,200 --> 00:22:15,140 So that worked quite quite well. Now as to pathology, because I think come back from memory, this was a terrible thing, really. 183 00:22:15,140 --> 00:22:26,060 And when Alison provided a lot of material, actually, but he gave up really all the thoracic stuff and so letting him bless his heart came to me. 184 00:22:26,060 --> 00:22:30,260 I had them the in 1972. I think it was. 185 00:22:30,260 --> 00:22:37,340 I looked after my daughter. I met her. I came to me and said, Look, would you do the renal biopsies? 186 00:22:37,340 --> 00:22:47,330 And luckily, shortly afterwards we had Morris, and so I switched course to to renal pathology. 187 00:22:47,330 --> 00:22:52,620 And actually, that was very good because we had a good electron microscope and a good chip to do it. 188 00:22:52,620 --> 00:22:57,500 Mr Jerome, do the technical work we've done for his work. 189 00:22:57,500 --> 00:23:04,100 He left because Ivy Florey was a bit difficult and he was he was a good egg. 190 00:23:04,100 --> 00:23:08,870 And so that was a very productive period for me, actually. 191 00:23:08,870 --> 00:23:13,100 Yeah, but in bursts, you always did quantitative stuff. 192 00:23:13,100 --> 00:23:18,290 Oh yes. Yes, yes, I did. I wrote this book on my phone. 193 00:23:18,290 --> 00:23:21,770 This is Bill Ahern. 194 00:23:21,770 --> 00:23:26,690 Yes, I did a lot of quantitative stuff on there, but actually there was one. 195 00:23:26,690 --> 00:23:36,320 One good thing about the department is that nobody tried to direct me and I could have been doing, you know, sticklebacks or something. 196 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:41,540 But I I did. I was able to do the more commentary of the placenta with Bill Ahern, 197 00:23:41,540 --> 00:23:47,750 which was quite a good bet and some on the kidney, which is good and some on bone. 198 00:23:47,750 --> 00:23:51,320 And those are still quoted as still quoted in the press. 199 00:23:51,320 --> 00:24:02,270 I rang me the other day. I had a saying from the Nuffield Orthopaedic Centre asking me for my reprints on all the quantitative changes in back. 200 00:24:02,270 --> 00:24:08,000 And of course, on the line, I did it quite a bit on emphysema. 201 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:12,920 Yeah. Who when did you retire, Mike? I retired in 1993. 202 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:17,510 Why didn't you add a personal chair before that? Well, because you were doing their in. 203 00:24:17,510 --> 00:24:20,930 Yeah, I think of his 10 year retirement. I wasn't particularly. I'm not. 204 00:24:20,930 --> 00:24:28,880 I've never been one for the titles, you see. No dull was very annoyed with me because I gave up being director of clinical studies. 205 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:35,360 I made it up later. But he he wrote somewhere. I got a letter saying I will carry on for many years. 206 00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:42,230 And then he, I think Sidebottom will take me because he said he was there. 207 00:24:42,230 --> 00:24:44,000 I didn't. I don't remember being there. 208 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:55,500 He asked if I would have the chair you see here, and I didn't want to cause the difficult a lot of but I mean, reason why are you taking care bill? 209 00:24:55,500 --> 00:25:02,990 Oh, they were terrible lot and you know, it compounded it, but it was so and besides, 210 00:25:02,990 --> 00:25:09,260 I well, I can't bear sort of commanding people, and I had enough of that in the army now. 211 00:25:09,260 --> 00:25:14,300 So now I don't. I'm sorry. I was able to ply my empire and I felt it had a very good life. 212 00:25:14,300 --> 00:25:19,080 Very nice indeed. Yeah. You mentioned the Nuffield Committee. 213 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:24,170 Oh, yes, that was that was, of course, an extraordinary camp. 214 00:25:24,170 --> 00:25:31,820 Crampton Smith had a great, great doctor because he was very anxious that they should keep enough money in. 215 00:25:31,820 --> 00:25:37,580 Well, of course, Dole brought in five new chairs you see paediatrics, neurology, 216 00:25:37,580 --> 00:25:45,560 biochemistry, morbid anatomy and public health and a tremendous achievement. 217 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,760 You see, an adult was the great dole was the greatest person we've ever had. 218 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:54,890 I mean, I know the difficulties with him, but he was even his greatest person we had. 219 00:25:54,890 --> 00:26:04,340 And of course they want. They want it, the money and the idea that they should be starved of the nothing of any patient anyway. 220 00:26:04,340 --> 00:26:13,490 Crampton Smith is always on about that. Every now, if your committee is the cream on the cake, we should all have equal, but we have more. 221 00:26:13,490 --> 00:26:17,690 You see, I was a favourite favourite thing. 222 00:26:17,690 --> 00:26:22,550 The Crimson had had two favourite things. One was a cream on the cake. 223 00:26:22,550 --> 00:26:33,890 Everybody has equal like that, but we have the cream, OK? The other thing was that my my currency, he used to say, is Death Hills DPhil thesis. 224 00:26:33,890 --> 00:26:40,340 I don't know why I thought that was good, but I know well, that's about numbers. 225 00:26:40,340 --> 00:26:48,950 I mean, are well used to that. But we got it up to 50 pretty quickly and a lot of excess. 226 00:26:48,950 --> 00:26:54,710 And then, of course, they they wanted the UGC gave more money. 227 00:26:54,710 --> 00:27:05,660 But as a quid pro quo, they wanted it up to 100. And the full committee, which seemed to be the influential body as a didn't want to increase numbers. 228 00:27:05,660 --> 00:27:11,210 But Beeson and I both saw the ideal number was 60. 229 00:27:11,210 --> 00:27:14,470 That was the number at Harvard. And it's a number. 230 00:27:14,470 --> 00:27:19,990 The way you could know the name of every medical student without too much effort. 231 00:27:19,990 --> 00:27:24,670 Whereas if you've got 100 or 150, I don't know what it is now. 150. 232 00:27:24,670 --> 00:27:29,170 Yeah, well, you see you. You can't possibly know everybody then. 233 00:27:29,170 --> 00:27:36,010 I mean, I've just been to see a gym hold in hospital. 234 00:27:36,010 --> 00:27:42,340 I mean, he's out now. He had an asthma attack being cross-examined on this issue. 235 00:27:42,340 --> 00:27:50,890 And he said he was somebody came up to treat him very nice and he didn't realise that would be in his house. 236 00:27:50,890 --> 00:27:53,590 But you see, well, that can happen, you see. 237 00:27:53,590 --> 00:28:05,050 I mean, I can't recall all the juniors that came through the department by any means that, yeah, yeah, like anything else we ought to talk about. 238 00:28:05,050 --> 00:28:10,070 I think that you've covered it very well, that you make, um. 239 00:28:10,070 --> 00:28:15,890 Where do you place, Pickering? I know you said about Doe and I had agreed that the DOE could see the future. 240 00:28:15,890 --> 00:28:26,270 Yeah, well, the thing about about Pickering, it was just like the warden of Merton and I've had four wardens. 241 00:28:26,270 --> 00:28:28,850 I'll just tell you this general thing. 242 00:28:28,850 --> 00:28:37,580 Pickering laid the foundation eight, Pickering laid the foundation and Pickering based and laid the foundation, though would not have got anywhere. 243 00:28:37,580 --> 00:28:43,750 He hadn't any when he came. I something like, I keep all the letters I got. 244 00:28:43,750 --> 00:28:50,660 I took him to dinner. I had a dinner for him in Milton and he was very he was very, very grateful, always grateful. 245 00:28:50,660 --> 00:28:58,100 He always mentioned that because he'd got no experience of really medical students and medical teaching at all. 246 00:28:58,100 --> 00:29:03,050 And he was very grateful for that introduction. 247 00:29:03,050 --> 00:29:11,600 But no, and this is a general rule I found, is that some poor chap gets appointed regents professor or warden, 248 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:16,400 and he works like blazes, getting them money in the foundation of the people interested. 249 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:21,320 And then he retires, and the next chap comes along and takes the credit. 250 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:28,610 This is exactly what happened, murdered as well, because my my friend John Roberts and Rex Richards, 251 00:29:28,610 --> 00:29:31,760 you know, they were wonderful, wonderful, wonderful man. 252 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:39,290 And John went to tremendous trouble to get money from my Japanese staff on that and and Riggs too. 253 00:29:39,290 --> 00:29:41,870 They both terrific. 254 00:29:41,870 --> 00:29:53,120 And then he retired, and this new warden came in and everybody said, wonderful that she's built this new, you know, she'd done absolutely well. 255 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:58,590 She had done a bit, but. And that happens a lot, I think. 256 00:29:58,590 --> 00:30:04,950 Yeah. OK. I think I think I don't know when they'll talk about Maggie, do we all say yes? 257 00:30:04,950 --> 00:32:26,000 Oh well.