1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:15,290 Sequence, this is 20th January, and then Taylor is being interviewed by Derek Hockaday, 2 00:00:15,290 --> 00:00:23,450 and I guess you came to the two Oxford and 46 right up to walks up to Oxford. 3 00:00:23,450 --> 00:00:24,800 You lived here, did you? In fact? 4 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:52,510 Well, my parents had moved to Oxford during the war because of the schools, and I was sent to the Oxford High School for girls. 5 00:00:52,510 --> 00:00:58,240 You've told me that you entered the medical school in 46, 6 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:03,970 but before that you lived in Oxford and gone to the high school and that before that 7 00:01:03,970 --> 00:01:25,750 your father had won a scholarship to Jesus and had really enjoyed his time in Oxford. 8 00:01:25,750 --> 00:01:33,250 During the war, he had volunteered to join the army as an intelligence officer, 9 00:01:33,250 --> 00:01:46,180 and he was stationed in Bicester at Booster, and at that time I was sent off to boarding school. 10 00:01:46,180 --> 00:01:52,000 But then they decided to move into Oxford for the schools. 11 00:01:52,000 --> 00:02:00,130 And so I had grown up from the age group about 15, I suppose, in Oxford. 12 00:02:00,130 --> 00:02:14,110 So it was familiar territory. So I was duly entered for Somerville, which was sort of considered to be the brain. 13 00:02:14,110 --> 00:02:24,640 And actually, five of us, five girls from Somerville got applied to go places from the high school, from the high school. 14 00:02:24,640 --> 00:02:26,620 So I got information. 15 00:02:26,620 --> 00:02:41,950 And in those days there was a courageous system and women came off rather badly in that only two women could go from each women's college. 16 00:02:41,950 --> 00:02:52,210 There were only five women's colleges anyway, so there were a total of 10 women in the medical school intake. 17 00:02:52,210 --> 00:02:57,310 But we seem to be seen to be more of a mess at some of them. 18 00:02:57,310 --> 00:03:05,800 But at that time, there was no medical tutor or physiology due to something that we were under the care, 19 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:14,410 as it were of the chemistry tutor who was Dorothy Hodgkin, who of course, subsequently won. 20 00:03:14,410 --> 00:03:18,340 I think it was the Nobel prise. Yeah, absolutely. 21 00:03:18,340 --> 00:03:29,800 And she didn't ever teach me, but I used to meet up with her twice a term, and she didn't strike one as being quite amazingly brilliant. 22 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:42,870 But she was very, very pleasant and very self-effacing individual and we were what was called farmed out for our tutorials. 23 00:03:42,870 --> 00:03:48,840 We were sent to the tutors at LNH. 24 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:57,970 Sue. I duly took first IBM in 1958. 25 00:03:57,970 --> 00:04:02,200 I think that would be probably get my date sorted. 26 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:21,410 Forty two. And in 1949, I took schools, as with the custom on the School of Physiology and Biochemistry, and I got a first in schools and. 27 00:04:21,410 --> 00:04:30,320 I think I was the first woman to go to first for 10 years or something like that, but that, of course, there had been others that many years. 28 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:40,850 And those women included Janet Vaughan, and at the time that I was at, Somerville was the principal of some of them. 29 00:04:40,850 --> 00:04:47,760 She was quite a terrifying character, rather much rather like an eagle. 30 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:53,300 But she was certainly superb one and ask impossible questions. 31 00:04:53,300 --> 00:05:01,220 I remember that in the interview, I was interviewed for a scholarship and turn it into a very stern answers. 32 00:05:01,220 --> 00:05:09,820 Now, Miss Hughes Jones. I was a good Welsh girl by birth. 33 00:05:09,820 --> 00:05:16,160 Were you interested in going into academic medicine or clinical medicine? 34 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:21,740 Well, I was completely nonplussed. 17 year old schoolgirl. 35 00:05:21,740 --> 00:05:34,520 It never occurred to me that I could do anything in medical medicine, so I sit there silently and it's a total confusion. 36 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:41,750 So I fluff the interview and I didn't get the scholarship and who your tutor is actually for. 37 00:05:41,750 --> 00:05:50,060 Be Ms. Who did you happen to? Who you tutored? But I have to think about what I was. 38 00:05:50,060 --> 00:05:59,390 And what about schools? And you probably remember, well, the man who tutor who really had a big influence on me was Oliver Smithies. 39 00:05:59,390 --> 00:06:06,560 Right? Also in due course won the Nobel prise. He's in America now, right? 40 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,910 Is he in zoology when he was in biochemistry at that time? 41 00:06:10,910 --> 00:06:16,100 I thought it was a biochemist and he had a very enquiring mind. 42 00:06:16,100 --> 00:06:21,440 He taught me how to think. I owe a lot to him. 43 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:26,360 But at the time, I rather despised him because he didn't seem to know anything. 44 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:36,980 I didn't know any physiology. So you said that you used to teach him physiology. 45 00:06:36,980 --> 00:06:41,840 What did you think of the school year and did you enjoy it? 46 00:06:41,840 --> 00:06:51,500 Yes, I did, because one was allowed to just do one's own thing, and my approach to schools was to read very widely around the subject. 47 00:06:51,500 --> 00:07:03,530 I'd be given a short reading list, but I would go back through the literature by looking at the references at the back, and I'd read back, Yes. 48 00:07:03,530 --> 00:07:11,600 And I remember reading everything, but Lashley, who was a neuroscientist, had ever published. 49 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:17,360 Wow, that's good because he thought it was all dispersed uniformly through the brain. 50 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:21,260 Yes. And that's what do you want to say? 51 00:07:21,260 --> 00:07:30,140 No. But I didn't read everything he wrote or called in play or the tape once. 52 00:07:30,140 --> 00:07:37,600 And that was just I was a student, and he was shocked, surprised and shocked it. 53 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:43,790 And did you enjoy the practical work? No. Right. There was never any good practical use. 54 00:07:43,790 --> 00:07:49,670 So I didn't really enjoy it. But was the theoretical of the theory that I liked it. 55 00:07:49,670 --> 00:07:53,720 And then you'd done person back? Well, yes, sir. 56 00:07:53,720 --> 00:08:10,130 But as was quite common in those days, I got married at that point and spent at that point. 57 00:08:10,130 --> 00:08:18,410 Keith, my husband, Keith Taylor, was doing a registrar job in London, 58 00:08:18,410 --> 00:08:27,500 so I took the birth of that course from London, and Julie found one of the papers, which was rather disgraceful. 59 00:08:27,500 --> 00:08:31,430 So then you had to take that as a I had to take that again. All right. 60 00:08:31,430 --> 00:08:38,760 So then my career was quite interrupted because I. 61 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:46,420 Instead of going straight into the clinical course, I took two years out, and that was because Keith had a job at, 62 00:08:46,420 --> 00:08:53,370 had jobs in London and then in Bath and then eventually back to Oxford in the weeks department. 63 00:08:53,370 --> 00:09:05,760 And so then I was enrolled in the clinical school, which at that time was very small. 64 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:12,000 I can't remember the figures now, but there was something like only about 10 or 12 events in the year. 65 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:21,810 The clinical intake of my year. But that was very rewarding because we got a lot of attention. 66 00:09:21,810 --> 00:09:27,260 And I remember in particular, Peter. Yes, it was a very clever man. 67 00:09:27,260 --> 00:09:35,610 This went down to Bradford, went on to Bradford City, and of course, all the teaching was down at the Radcliffe. 68 00:09:35,610 --> 00:09:47,160 Everything was done at the most major job right up the hill and the Medical Students Club as it was in the house, 69 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:57,330 the original house in the Woodstock Road, right next door to the Observatory. 70 00:09:57,330 --> 00:10:04,230 And did I finish the clinical course in one straight swoop? 71 00:10:04,230 --> 00:10:15,330 No, I had another couple of boys. It's time I emerged fully qualified and then I did the White House job. 72 00:10:15,330 --> 00:10:21,180 And after that, I was allowed to do an obstetric house job instead of a straight surgical job. 73 00:10:21,180 --> 00:10:25,150 It was always a possibility. I mean, everywhere, anybody could do that. 74 00:10:25,150 --> 00:10:30,480 It's yeah, but no great. I negotiated down and did it with. 75 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:38,400 I did share Samoa's joy, and the advantage of doing the professorial jobs was that there were two horsemen. 76 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:46,620 Yes. And the other with this was the old school boy who was supposed to get the occasional 77 00:10:46,620 --> 00:10:54,930 weekend off to see them and was Keith working in the industry during this time he year, 78 00:10:54,930 --> 00:10:58,740 largely under the influence of Stickney. True love? Right? 79 00:10:58,740 --> 00:11:03,900 Yes. So when you're done the two house jobs, then you are registered. 80 00:11:03,900 --> 00:11:07,950 Then did you go to the Pickering unit? Yes. 81 00:11:07,950 --> 00:11:15,900 Then for a while, I worked in the Pickering unit, and that was in the days that Bush was in the unit. 82 00:11:15,900 --> 00:11:20,880 And Grant me was coming down with Pickering from London. 83 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:30,840 I think is and Pickering was quite a character. Totally different from which, of course. 84 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:40,860 But Pickering had an intuitive clinical sense in part, and he would ask to see the look inspect the vomit, 85 00:11:40,860 --> 00:11:49,440 which pick which would never have done, which was one laboratory test after another. 86 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:54,240 And I found which rather a sterile and difficult man. 87 00:11:54,240 --> 00:12:01,290 Right? But Pickering, you worked clinically with him as well as no, don't really know, right? 88 00:12:01,290 --> 00:12:10,960 No. And what are the differences between Pickering and Wills with you mentioned razor thin? 89 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:17,340 Well, Pickering was quite human, whereas Typekit, 90 00:12:17,340 --> 00:12:27,840 which was almost sort of rarefied air in his which he didn't descend from very often those who had worked with him for years revered him, 91 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:33,300 and he was obviously highly intellectual. Mm hmm. 92 00:12:33,300 --> 00:12:46,160 What was your research on then? Oh, some something so trivial, Derek, that I've forgotten within Bush was to always grant. 93 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:52,620 Yeah, it wasn't with ground. It would switch between Bush and I was measuring some sort of steroids. 94 00:12:52,620 --> 00:13:00,930 Well, he was tremendous chromatography. That's right. He invented paper chromatography were not quite true, but I know he was one of the real pundits. 95 00:13:00,930 --> 00:13:08,490 And he was very keen on the zeros. So you were right at the end of the corridor? 96 00:13:08,490 --> 00:13:18,750 Yes. But I used to go and use a machine, which was some sort of scanner near them right there at the main card. 97 00:13:18,750 --> 00:13:20,910 And the fume COVID came into life. 98 00:13:20,910 --> 00:13:29,610 Pretty much then if you were doing chromatography because some of the solvents were quite noxious to be turned into. 99 00:13:29,610 --> 00:13:38,040 I've always wondered if they were sending round the twist to those who may have been a bit like that before. 100 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:42,870 Right? But I mean, I worked for them. I was very depressed. Is you very clever? 101 00:13:42,870 --> 00:13:46,810 Yes, absolutely. And tremendous with sort of spectrum, you know? 102 00:13:46,810 --> 00:13:53,520 I mean, you look clever in lots of directions. I didn't realise do work is tell you about it later. 103 00:13:53,520 --> 00:14:03,460 Okay, so you worked with him. What happened after that? Well. 104 00:14:03,460 --> 00:14:09,010 I've got to get the timing right. The keys got a big job in the States. 105 00:14:09,010 --> 00:14:18,640 Basically, that was in 1963. Of course, that we went to the States, right? 106 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:29,110 I just lost my sense of time where they were round about it, and that was on. 107 00:14:29,110 --> 00:14:36,020 Were you working in the states? Well, not really. No, because in the states women were not supposed to work right. 108 00:14:36,020 --> 00:14:41,860 And Stan Keith got offered a nice job as an associate professor at Stanford. 109 00:14:41,860 --> 00:14:50,610 At Stanford, that was a rule that no two members of the same family could be on the faculty. 110 00:14:50,610 --> 00:14:57,130 And so Keith got a faculty appointment and I could not have a serious appointment. 111 00:14:57,130 --> 00:15:05,590 So I, first of all, managed to land a left a job as a lab assistant, 112 00:15:05,590 --> 00:15:14,770 which involved sticking stomach tubes down grant wrapped and collecting the gastric juice. 113 00:15:14,770 --> 00:15:34,550 And then I slowly migrated to the renal department because when I was a tutor, I missed out being that you wanted a tutor at Sundance and you have it. 114 00:15:34,550 --> 00:15:42,530 Yes. Was that before you went to America? Yes. Yes it is. 115 00:15:42,530 --> 00:15:49,700 So not long after us. Goodness me, I should have thought through the dates properly, 116 00:15:49,700 --> 00:15:55,040 it must have been when you were in the Pickering unit, you couldn't have done it as a Houseman. 117 00:15:55,040 --> 00:16:03,140 That's right. It was immediately after I finished the house jobs and was then working in the Pickering unit, 118 00:16:03,140 --> 00:16:09,800 really in order to sort of maintain some sort of respectability as it were. 119 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:19,040 But I actually was appointed as the first medical director at Sundance and I was elected, but I was a lecturer to begin with. 120 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:22,790 And in those days, there were very few science fellows. 121 00:16:22,790 --> 00:16:34,790 In fact, it was only one. She was a zoologist and she left to go to Edinburgh in Edinburgh, and when she left, I was promoted to the fellowship. 122 00:16:34,790 --> 00:16:44,810 To my surprise. So I was a fellow with ups and downs for a period of about six years. 123 00:16:44,810 --> 00:16:49,310 Yes. And that was a sort of full time job. Well, no. 124 00:16:49,310 --> 00:16:54,690 Indeed, it was perfectly compatible with life. Yes. 125 00:16:54,690 --> 00:16:59,900 Well, no. But you weren't doing anything else. No, you stop the Pickering work. 126 00:16:59,900 --> 00:17:02,360 No, I was doing the Pickering. Right before that. 127 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:11,850 I had actually been working with a vet in the Nuffield Department of Medicine in the Nuffield Institute. 128 00:17:11,850 --> 00:17:15,740 Kind of the forerunner of the zoo. 129 00:17:15,740 --> 00:17:22,390 Is that Perry? Yes, Perry. And I'm amazed. 130 00:17:22,390 --> 00:17:25,640 I mean. And what did you do with Perry? 131 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:37,460 Well, I came out of the obstetrics job with Qassim and wishing that I could go into obstetrics, but it was really not compatible with being a mother. 132 00:17:37,460 --> 00:17:50,960 And so I settled on the job with Perry because it was something that was slightly related and he was working on so-called toxic pregnancy in sheep. 133 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:59,930 Yes. With Geoffrey Doors with Geoffrey Dorset, Geoffrey was very much on the fringe of that. 134 00:17:59,930 --> 00:18:06,260 And so I did a bit of work with Perry, and I didn't put on a very good impression of Perry. 135 00:18:06,260 --> 00:18:16,730 Yeah, it was a pleasant man. And Geoffrey towards was sort of becoming more and more peripheral somehow, rather other it was. 136 00:18:16,730 --> 00:18:22,310 But at that time I had my academic respectability was maintained by my appointment. 137 00:18:22,310 --> 00:18:32,300 And yes. And it was while I was sometimes that the other tutors nudged me into teaching on 138 00:18:32,300 --> 00:18:38,090 the kidney because there were very few people around it to teach on the kidney. 139 00:18:38,090 --> 00:18:45,110 So you ready to give up? Yes. 140 00:18:45,110 --> 00:19:00,410 And then when I got when we got to Stanford, I managed to wangle my way into a minor lectureship in the physiology department there, 141 00:19:00,410 --> 00:19:05,540 which was pretty much a known job in a known department. 142 00:19:05,540 --> 00:19:14,940 But I did a bit of I introduced tutorial teaching yes to that, which the students love. 143 00:19:14,940 --> 00:19:22,010 Yeah, I read, particularly the Chinese students exhibit quite a number of mentors and slowly. 144 00:19:22,010 --> 00:19:32,540 Then I moved into Roy Mathletes renal unit in the Department of Medicine. 145 00:19:32,540 --> 00:19:41,330 There was no real physiology department to speak of at Stanford at that time or me in Hammersmith and so on. 146 00:19:41,330 --> 00:19:47,570 They were all doctors rather who were doing kidney work, and I think they were very. 147 00:19:47,570 --> 00:19:55,340 And had you enjoyed being a tutor in Oxford? Oh yes, I liked it very much indeed in a tutorial now. 148 00:19:55,340 --> 00:20:00,760 I mean, did people read an essay? Do you? Yes. 149 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:09,430 Yes. In the traditional way, but I always felt in retrospect that spent half of the time, 150 00:20:09,430 --> 00:20:14,350 it's not it's not a very demanding job from the point of view of the shooter. 151 00:20:14,350 --> 00:20:20,470 But there was the tremendous benefit of the personal interaction and being able to pick up on the 152 00:20:20,470 --> 00:20:29,560 individual points as the student carried out and essay because they did this within the days women-only. 153 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:44,770 You see, I had the advantage that at times they could only appoint a woman because they had started appointing and admitting men show time. 154 00:20:44,770 --> 00:20:49,000 And did you have some very bright students, one or two? 155 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:54,410 Yes, but I remember one, particularly bright one. 156 00:20:54,410 --> 00:21:02,260 And she taught me about actually talking and who is not good at school. 157 00:21:02,260 --> 00:21:05,740 And have you kept up with her? 158 00:21:05,740 --> 00:21:14,110 No, not really. Well, there was one whose daughters ended up at Teddy Hall in my time at Teddy, who? 159 00:21:14,110 --> 00:21:19,390 And so then you went to America and got to the renal unit, eventually medical. 160 00:21:19,390 --> 00:21:25,700 When you're doing clinical work on the renal unit? No, no. Because I never took the qualifying exams. 161 00:21:25,700 --> 00:21:29,050 Yes, I contemplated doing it, doing them. 162 00:21:29,050 --> 00:21:34,970 And I had even paid the entrance fee to take the exam once exorbitant, some bits. 163 00:21:34,970 --> 00:21:40,120 And it was messed up. 164 00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:44,470 I didn't get it. It didn't arrive until I was something, and I was quite pleased. 165 00:21:44,470 --> 00:21:53,260 It didn't because by that time I was completely disillusioned by American made the medical 166 00:21:53,260 --> 00:22:03,100 system whereby somebody who had been run over on the street would be picked up in an ambulance. 167 00:22:03,100 --> 00:22:13,480 And if they had Blue Shield Blue Cross Medical Insurance, they would be admitted to emergency A&E Stanford. 168 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:21,790 And if they didn't have it, they were driven on another 20 miles towards San Francisco to San Mateo County Hospital beds. 169 00:22:21,790 --> 00:22:28,240 And I thought, I don't want to practise medicine in this system. 170 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:37,330 And so I concentrated on research. And so I should tell you at this point that really actually worked on the toad bladder, 171 00:22:37,330 --> 00:22:44,600 the two during the day, and he had trained with Leif Alex Leach in Boston. 172 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:52,120 In Boston, he had good credentials, but he didn't have an original idea in his life. 173 00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:58,180 And he was a nice man, not a research work and not creative in any way at all. 174 00:22:58,180 --> 00:23:06,460 But he did get me a job and he allowed me to do my own thing, and I happened to have to be very nice, 175 00:23:06,460 --> 00:23:14,180 bright young Canadian medick who was about to turn into a psychiatrist. 176 00:23:14,180 --> 00:23:24,850 He was working in the nephrology department, but he decided to get out and go into psychiatry and getting very, very bored with what he was reading. 177 00:23:24,850 --> 00:23:34,840 He in the library. He picked up a book or an edition of the Journal of Cell Biology and found 178 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:40,480 himself reading a paper on the cytoskeleton on microtubules and microfluidics. 179 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:45,550 And he came back and started reading about this to me. 180 00:23:45,550 --> 00:23:51,820 And I looked up to and we got quite enthusiastic about it and decided that 181 00:23:51,820 --> 00:23:57,460 we were going to try the effects of colchicine and other anti mitotic drugs, 182 00:23:57,460 --> 00:24:04,390 which was the dismantling of microtubules, right? 183 00:24:04,390 --> 00:24:14,740 And interfere with their action and see what effect it has on the action of face to person in the movement. 184 00:24:14,740 --> 00:24:28,390 Roy Murphy allowed us to do our own thing. And so he was an inmate and he wasn't at all sure we were what we were doing. 185 00:24:28,390 --> 00:24:33,400 He wasn't when it came to the International Congress of Nephrology in Mexico City. 186 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:38,290 He went and put in a paper on the very conventional subject, 187 00:24:38,290 --> 00:24:46,840 and he didn't want to let me submit my abstract, but somebody else persuaded him to do so. 188 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:55,900 And of course, by that, it was actually completely new because nobody had ever thought of doing this before. 189 00:24:55,900 --> 00:25:05,730 It was his accepted as well. And. No, I think mine was that was the beginning at Stanford. 190 00:25:05,730 --> 00:25:17,380 If you didn't have a full academic position, you couldn't apply. At that particular time, you couldn't apply for an I.h grant. 191 00:25:17,380 --> 00:25:22,540 Right? In fact, there were some women who had been allowed to apply for NIH grants, 192 00:25:22,540 --> 00:25:30,160 but at that point they toughened up the rules and those people had to give up, too. 193 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:38,450 So that was a bit of a women's liberation route in at Stanford Medical School. 194 00:25:38,450 --> 00:25:49,000 So I wrote a grant application on my project and really actually put his name to it. 195 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:54,340 Yeah, because Stanford wouldn't have accepted it, wouldn't have sponsored it otherwise. 196 00:25:54,340 --> 00:25:58,510 And he was a different grant application with his name on it. 197 00:25:58,510 --> 00:26:12,800 To be submitted to my grant was accepted to do so that all the work in the lab went over to my I project. 198 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:19,660 Right, right. So this was quite exciting days because they were exciting days in the field of cell biology. 199 00:26:19,660 --> 00:26:27,490 Yes. And there were a lot of meetings of the cell biologists going all across the country. 200 00:26:27,490 --> 00:26:33,160 And I went to many, many meetings and the nephrologists look, 201 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:38,950 we're quite interested in what I was doing, but didn't quite know what to make of it to begin with. 202 00:26:38,950 --> 00:26:43,660 So then Keith came back to England for a bit, didn't he? 203 00:26:43,660 --> 00:26:48,920 Yes, he did. And did you go with him or not? No, because by that time we had split up what I wanted. 204 00:26:48,920 --> 00:27:04,330 But he had already remarried, right? Actually, he came back with his second one and he came back in to an administrative job at the life of me. 205 00:27:04,330 --> 00:27:16,000 I kind of was a clinical chatterjee. I think in the winter, you know, he wanted to be a clinical tutor, but that was before we left. 206 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:22,090 And David Pipe got the job right. And Keith didn't get the job, and Keith was rather upset about that. 207 00:27:22,090 --> 00:27:28,520 And that was one factor that made you decide that he was going to go to America. 208 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:37,070 No, it was. It was purely institutional and administrative sort of thing that he was doing later on. 209 00:27:37,070 --> 00:27:42,040 But anyhow, he came back to America. But I mean, you went on working in. 210 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:42,580 Yes. 211 00:27:42,580 --> 00:27:53,000 But what happened at Stanford was that Roy Murphy, after the slight embarrassment of my grant being funded and is not, he decided to close the lab. 212 00:27:53,000 --> 00:28:00,400 I can't have it. So suddenly I had no job. 213 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:07,090 And then I by that time, I had some supporters, 214 00:28:07,090 --> 00:28:16,030 amongst other nephrologists in San Francisco and around the place, and even Alex Leaf was still working. 215 00:28:16,030 --> 00:28:25,730 I think. And so I was put up for various jobs at NIH and at Cornell, 216 00:28:25,730 --> 00:28:32,630 and I moved to the Department of Physiology at Cornell University Medical School, which is in Manhattan. 217 00:28:32,630 --> 00:28:39,480 Right the main campus, of course, is up in this. 218 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,640 That's what I thought is that the physiology was Manhattan. 219 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:43,970 Yes. 220 00:28:43,970 --> 00:28:57,320 Well, the medical school was Manhattan because the rationale being you got to have a hospital and a medical medical school to train medical students, 221 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:03,420 and they've got to have a population to serve that needs it's got to be a new city. 222 00:29:03,420 --> 00:29:08,150 So Cornell University Medical School was right next door to Rockefeller. 223 00:29:08,150 --> 00:29:13,940 Right on the east side of Manhattan, which was the hospital. Well, one thing, right? 224 00:29:13,940 --> 00:29:24,770 OK, physically attacked. Yes. Yes. And the physiology department was focussed entirely on US epithelial transport. 225 00:29:24,770 --> 00:29:32,180 Hmm. Kidney gut. So just your thing. 226 00:29:32,180 --> 00:29:36,860 Just wonderful. Great research environment to be in. 227 00:29:36,860 --> 00:29:42,770 So you were working on microtubules to do is to puncture them or whatever you can't do. 228 00:29:42,770 --> 00:29:55,250 No, I didn't have the fluid that fluid in around there disassemble when your tissue was exposed to empty my agents. 229 00:29:55,250 --> 00:30:00,200 So I just got to see and blast in very interesting. There's a whole series of things. 230 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:10,510 And when still at Stanford, I had done some quite elaborate over the top studies looking at the temperature, dependence and all these different drugs. 231 00:30:10,510 --> 00:30:16,470 And they also behaved pharmacologically the way they should do. 232 00:30:16,470 --> 00:30:20,930 So it looked fairly convincing, right? I see. 233 00:30:20,930 --> 00:30:25,040 And then micro filaments were very much in the in the West, 234 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:38,730 any one agent due to the fact that this was just a surgical base in which was an imperfect tool, but better than nothing. 235 00:30:38,730 --> 00:30:42,840 And so I had a very nice, modern lab when I moved to Cornell, 236 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:49,110 I just it just happened that they extended the building and the the two or three new labs, 237 00:30:49,110 --> 00:30:55,640 and I got one of them in a very supportive environment and I changed my name. 238 00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:03,330 Yeah. So, you know, it's grown to right and work hard at that over time. 239 00:31:03,330 --> 00:31:10,260 But I did do that and I gave quite a lot of talks and federation proceedings, meetings and that sort of thing. 240 00:31:10,260 --> 00:31:15,570 Mm hmm. So it was very productive and I would have been very good to have stayed. 241 00:31:15,570 --> 00:31:20,620 But I after five years I thought, I can't live in Manhattan forever. 242 00:31:20,620 --> 00:31:35,100 And it's very stimulating. In New York, it's just so much energy in New York, and I actually love New York compared with Palo Alto. 243 00:31:35,100 --> 00:31:39,410 All right, which of course, is now subsumed in Silicon Valley. 244 00:31:39,410 --> 00:31:48,810 But. California's nice sort of peaceful place to live if one wants to play tennis. 245 00:31:48,810 --> 00:32:10,310 But it's such and such good tennis was never a tennis, so I applied for a job here in Oxford, in the department or in a college energy park suit. 246 00:32:10,310 --> 00:32:14,600 There was a there was a university lecturer. 247 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,750 Lectureship was. 248 00:32:18,750 --> 00:32:28,810 Advertised in the physiology department, and I managed to land that ship, and by that time, joint appointments appointments were the No. 249 00:32:28,810 --> 00:32:35,100 Yes, sir. If you've got the university job, you've got allocated to a college. 250 00:32:35,100 --> 00:32:39,570 And so I was that my job was twinned with containment hall. 251 00:32:39,570 --> 00:32:43,350 Yes, sir. When was this in 1980? Right? 252 00:32:43,350 --> 00:32:47,310 Yeah. And so you have the two of the medical preclinical? 253 00:32:47,310 --> 00:32:56,310 Yes, I was the preclinical chieftain. And did you find things had changed since the time you very much. 254 00:32:56,310 --> 00:33:05,940 Of course, it was wonderful to get back to teaching in the tutorial system as opposed to addressing 70 medical students in the lectures, 255 00:33:05,940 --> 00:33:11,220 which is this which I was what I was doing a little bit of stem, 256 00:33:11,220 --> 00:33:20,230 but they didn't really think I was respectable and academically respectable enough to give a lecture to it. 257 00:33:20,230 --> 00:33:30,460 And they gave me lecture, give us a course of lectures to the nurses and to the engineers. 258 00:33:30,460 --> 00:33:37,350 I remember that at Cornell, you'd been lecturing to the medical significance. 259 00:33:37,350 --> 00:33:43,590 So if in fact, I mean, and did you lecture in Oxford and you were tutoring, but did you lecture? 260 00:33:43,590 --> 00:33:47,430 In fact you would, sir. I read renal physiology course. 261 00:33:47,430 --> 00:33:57,060 And as it happened, I was lucky to get the job because Colin Blakemore had been appointed as professor of physiology. 262 00:33:57,060 --> 00:34:09,660 A few months or years, little time early, and there was a very good neurophysiologist from Cambridge who he would have liked to got the job. 263 00:34:09,660 --> 00:34:20,260 You're running out of time. You know, not to just take my picture. And I. 264 00:34:20,260 --> 00:34:29,510 They needed. They didn't know it at the time, but the man who was teaching doing the regional physiology was Victor Cox. 265 00:34:29,510 --> 00:34:38,080 Oh yes, Victor. Yeah. When he wasn't really a renal physiologist, he worked largely on body fluid, 266 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:45,030 body fluid volumes, extra sedative fluid, that sort of thing he was interested in. 267 00:34:45,030 --> 00:34:49,570 And when I got when I arrived in the job, people would ask me, why? 268 00:34:49,570 --> 00:34:54,470 Why don't you sit questions on extracellular fluid volume? 269 00:34:54,470 --> 00:34:58,720 And I said, Well, nobody is interested in that. Nobody's working on it. 270 00:34:58,720 --> 00:35:09,460 And there are all these amazing data coming out of American labs and make sure the individual I know to relate to it. 271 00:35:09,460 --> 00:35:13,000 You do make a bunch of them. No, I didn't. I stuck with the two. 272 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:19,570 Yeah, but as of which, there was a lot of publication on them and it was a very useful tool. 273 00:35:19,570 --> 00:35:24,640 I remember trying to set it up. It's that much success. Yeah, that's another thing. 274 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:30,280 And Leave actually spent a sabbatical in Oxford or Cambridge, isn't it? 275 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:35,380 Is the news unit. Krebs, I thing is, I think you're right in biochemistry. 276 00:35:35,380 --> 00:35:45,310 That's right. That was before I came back to Oxford. But now your course in renal physiology was a pre. 277 00:35:45,310 --> 00:35:50,290 In the first two years, I was out in the online school. All of those? 278 00:35:50,290 --> 00:35:59,680 Yes, go ahead. So when I was at Cornell, the rule in the physiology department, 279 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:04,600 the head of the department at that time insisted that every faculty member should sit 280 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:16,300 through every lecture so they would know because there was sometimes group sort of teaching. 281 00:36:16,300 --> 00:36:25,570 And so we we all have to say we did sit through them all, and there were some excellent lecturers like Barry Brenner from Harvard. 282 00:36:25,570 --> 00:36:36,550 And because they would, they would they would be the resident staff as well, but also visiting lecturers, lecturers came in. 283 00:36:36,550 --> 00:36:43,690 So I assiduously took notes thinking one day, maybe I'm going to be giving these lectures. 284 00:36:43,690 --> 00:36:49,200 Maybe one day I'll give these lectures saying, No, I don't. 285 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,630 I don't think I ever did dream of that. 286 00:36:52,630 --> 00:37:03,460 But anyway, when I got the job, I had these wonderful notes from these very, very excellent, highly regarded people. 287 00:37:03,460 --> 00:37:12,100 So it wasn't difficult to take. And what happened was that Victor Cox died of a coronary within a year of my return. 288 00:37:12,100 --> 00:37:19,090 Right? Well, I think he'd retired, but then he died. 289 00:37:19,090 --> 00:37:23,890 Yes, he died. He died in the job, right? Yes. Oh, I see. 290 00:37:23,890 --> 00:37:28,870 You came over while he was still there. I'm I'm confusing things there. 291 00:37:28,870 --> 00:37:34,780 I didn't. I'd been appointed, of course. But then there's always an interim period. 292 00:37:34,780 --> 00:37:43,930 It was nine months later and I hadn't turned up for the job because I remember getting a letter from Colin Blakemore saying, 293 00:37:43,930 --> 00:37:49,120 We're sorry to have to tell you that Jackson died unexpectedly. 294 00:37:49,120 --> 00:38:04,300 Yeah. And so in any future correspondence, you need to talk to Charles Michel, who will sort of take over from him in terms of general arrangements. 295 00:38:04,300 --> 00:38:19,390 And so in a way, it was lucky that they had given me the job that the appointments committee had appointed me rather than the neurophysiologist, 296 00:38:19,390 --> 00:38:23,980 because of course, the department was stuffed with, you know, physiologists. 297 00:38:23,980 --> 00:38:32,620 So I was able to just step in like that with these prefabricated lectures. 298 00:38:32,620 --> 00:38:38,350 Would you say you returned to this country was partly because of your parents, you, 299 00:38:38,350 --> 00:38:47,740 my mother was still alive at that point because she was 90 and my brother had arranged for her to go into a 300 00:38:47,740 --> 00:38:55,540 home because she was still living in a large house in some motorists quite inappropriate for her at that age. 301 00:38:55,540 --> 00:39:00,160 And so there she was. 302 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:06,670 And so I was relieved that was that was really one of the main reasons why I said I wouldn't have left such a 303 00:39:06,670 --> 00:39:15,580 good job and such a good to know under the influence of my dad and how many changes that you see in Oxford. 304 00:39:15,580 --> 00:39:26,560 So say, 20 years you must have been in the department. India as a whole, since I came back in 1980 onwards, yes, I retired in ninety five. 305 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,980 Fifteen years. Yeah, well, not not a lot really talks talk. 306 00:39:29,980 --> 00:39:39,580 It doesn't change. Well, now Blakemore was there and George Gordon was there because George used that George because he was my tutor at one time. 307 00:39:39,580 --> 00:39:43,960 You the school, some of it. Yes, he taught me for schools in the area. 308 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:50,080 And what did you think of that? Well, George was delightful, but he wasn't the most hyper to do. 309 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:56,110 I don't know if I, but the spoofing that I've done involves and and and yeah, 310 00:39:56,110 --> 00:40:03,190 he sometimes ran the department when Blake Bell was off somewhere or concentrating on his experiments. 311 00:40:03,190 --> 00:40:11,080 I think in physiology, he was the sort of standing head of physiology at times, George, when he was in there. 312 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:16,600 But there may have been before you came back. No, he's a businessman. 313 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:25,230 And who else was there with you in the. Well, I remember David with Richard because it was. 314 00:40:25,230 --> 00:40:32,580 But of course, he had gotten it wasn't there anymore, David, which went to Edinburgh, didn't you? 315 00:40:32,580 --> 00:40:39,570 Now we reckon he was alive, but he was quite high powered and a bit frightening in a way. 316 00:40:39,570 --> 00:40:47,680 Correct. But he had taught me as an undergraduate and had examined me in schools. 317 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:52,830 Right? So I mean, you went through tours with this George and Richard? 318 00:40:52,830 --> 00:41:00,680 Yes, I did. I mean, would you sometimes go to one person for a bit of the term and then another for the rest of the term? 319 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:05,610 Well, yes. But what was which course was which Richard teaching? 320 00:41:05,610 --> 00:41:09,840 Well, I mean, George was definitely a peripheral sensation, yes. 321 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:17,700 And which might have been a bit higher up thing in the near axis than it was which Richard neurophysiology. 322 00:41:17,700 --> 00:41:24,680 Oh, yes. Yes, absolutely. I knew him quite well, and I knew his wife. 323 00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:30,500 But I figured she could read her with writing good and see as well. 324 00:41:30,500 --> 00:41:42,010 Is that her claim to fame? And do you think that the Oxford system was a good one? 325 00:41:42,010 --> 00:41:45,860 Well, I mean, there were people who wanted to do clinical medicine. 326 00:41:45,860 --> 00:41:52,940 Many of them. Did you think it was right? They were all going through the schools here? 327 00:41:52,940 --> 00:41:57,710 Yes. I think it exercised their brains and forced them to think of it. 328 00:41:57,710 --> 00:42:10,580 Yes. It's just the way that Oliver Smithies got me thinking I wasn't agitating to get on and get qualified, 329 00:42:10,580 --> 00:42:16,310 but all that might have suited me in certain ways. 330 00:42:16,310 --> 00:42:20,910 All right. And I think everybody was perfectly happy to have those extra here in Oxford. 331 00:42:20,910 --> 00:42:25,220 Did you do just sense? And there were some. 332 00:42:25,220 --> 00:42:36,610 George was one of them who thought of what you should do was do two years for first Ben and then do your person back and have four terms for schools. 333 00:42:36,610 --> 00:42:41,300 Oh yes. I mean, did you fight for that at any rate at the time? I've never heard of that. 334 00:42:41,300 --> 00:42:47,150 Right, right. But that would have been good because there was that extra term hanging around, wasn't it? 335 00:42:47,150 --> 00:42:55,680 Yes, it's broken backwards. If you didn't fail it, it was a two term. 336 00:42:55,680 --> 00:43:04,050 And George was so sweet, he invited me to dine in bracelets several times. 337 00:43:04,050 --> 00:43:12,630 He lived in Killington. Yes, around the corner in the movies and strategies 20, the 20 the most was new on the corner. 338 00:43:12,630 --> 00:43:21,200 So it's a coincidence. Did going to see the. I've never been able to find anybody where he did, right? 339 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:28,270 That was. Where was it? It's. And was George married? 340 00:43:28,270 --> 00:43:36,250 Oh, yes. Peggy and Peggy was a senior what we used to call home homeowners, and they felt that stuff going on. 341 00:43:36,250 --> 00:43:40,600 She was a senior lady. And I believe a very good one. 342 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:48,610 And their new duties always remembers her saying that because what we really need to be able to do with these people is give them a five pound note, 343 00:43:48,610 --> 00:43:54,940 which is much better than a lot of it is. 344 00:43:54,940 --> 00:44:00,170 And they, of course, had serious academic credentials, didn't you? 345 00:44:00,170 --> 00:44:04,390 Because his father had been vice president of Maudlin? Yes, yes. 346 00:44:04,390 --> 00:44:11,710 He was a professor of English and then one of his essays in a little book called The Discipline of Letters. 347 00:44:11,710 --> 00:44:16,420 He writes, Illness is in itself a form of inefficiency. 348 00:44:16,420 --> 00:44:22,810 Well, that's obviously true. But, you know, George got tuberculosis when he was a clinical did. 349 00:44:22,810 --> 00:44:30,230 I think there has been, I think, probably a husband because he did JCPenney JCPenney back Pennebaker's Joe, 350 00:44:30,230 --> 00:44:39,160 but didn't think it was canned and it must have been cans and Pennebaker and he had tuberculosis and had to take take off. 351 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:46,390 And I think then in those days you'd say that, you know, if you had tuberculosis, you wouldn't fit enough to do clinical medicine. 352 00:44:46,390 --> 00:44:53,680 And I think he always really regretted all that. Did he never do any comments? 353 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:57,410 No, except for this health jobs that haven't? Oh yes, he did. 354 00:44:57,410 --> 00:45:02,810 Yes, but he didn't. No, he didn't get on with the job that he's that he would have liked. 355 00:45:02,810 --> 00:45:08,730 I think when you have a PMC is secretly talking to you. 356 00:45:08,730 --> 00:45:17,560 Yeah. Um. Okay. Anything else you'd like to say? 357 00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:25,800 Well, you know, I've said quite a lot or you have, but you know that I have true diversity of a. 358 00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:31,350 How much support did you get with the children, I mean, did you have nannies or? 359 00:45:31,350 --> 00:45:42,770 Yeah, the neighbours see what we actually did when I started the clinical course. 360 00:45:42,770 --> 00:45:51,600 And. It was then I started the clinical course. 361 00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:56,790 My father had died of the cold and my mother was living in some Margaret Street, 362 00:45:56,790 --> 00:46:06,000 so she was recently widowed and she the house was very big, but she had some lodges in it. 363 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:11,790 But he said no between me and Dicky, so I do actually. 364 00:46:11,790 --> 00:46:16,320 I thought, Well, we move into this Margaret's road house with my mother. 365 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:23,090 It was very hard on my mother and my mother always feel my mother had a dog and she's forced 366 00:46:23,090 --> 00:46:28,380 to get rid of the dog because there was some scare at that time about what you could pick up. 367 00:46:28,380 --> 00:46:35,040 Dogs can't remember what that was toxoplasmosis. 368 00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:42,150 So we moved in with my mother and she was a priceless back up. 369 00:46:42,150 --> 00:46:45,960 And I also in Florida, what's called a mother's helper. 370 00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:56,730 His and that mother's helper lived with us there in the Margaret Street house for many years. 371 00:46:56,730 --> 00:47:02,190 And then, funnily enough, when I came back from the states, 372 00:47:02,190 --> 00:47:07,540 I found her handing out glasses of sherry in the front cord of Teddy, who would look at your cupboard. 373 00:47:07,540 --> 00:47:11,550 You know, it's a tremendous coincidence. 374 00:47:11,550 --> 00:47:22,770 And she was actually looking after the principal, John Kelly, the somewhat notorious principal, and he was a great character. 375 00:47:22,770 --> 00:47:29,310 And when he retired, she looked after the principals, the lodgings, and when he retired, 376 00:47:29,310 --> 00:47:39,360 he moved into a house that he bought in Creek Road and he was more worried and it was to go and help looking after him. 377 00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:47,580 And eventually, I said to Maureen, who become a family friend over the years. 378 00:47:47,580 --> 00:47:51,780 I said to John, Clearly doesn't need your services anymore, please. 379 00:47:51,780 --> 00:47:58,830 Will you come and look up to me? So in recent years, she has been to help me here in the great. 380 00:47:58,830 --> 00:48:03,030 It's lovely. Yes, I'm still in touch with her because she doesn't do it any. 381 00:48:03,030 --> 00:48:10,990 Then when you came back around, 1980 worked the whole taking women. 382 00:48:10,990 --> 00:48:16,300 I was the first woman fellow of Teddy, right, what about undergraduates? 383 00:48:16,300 --> 00:48:24,250 There were one or two. Right? Yes. Yes. So they started taking women in 1979. 384 00:48:24,250 --> 00:48:29,930 And a few women had sneaked in as graduate students before that. 385 00:48:29,930 --> 00:48:36,400 But Teddy, who was not one of the first colleges to admit women, they were good at Reagan. 386 00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:44,830 That's right. And still, that still has repercussions to this day. 387 00:48:44,830 --> 00:48:52,510 I mean, do you see that affecting admissions at Rio? 388 00:48:52,510 --> 00:52:30,200 No, not really. But. During a when you were an undergraduate. 389 00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:35,910 Really, the relationship between the preclinical and clinical departments was pretty scanned there, 390 00:52:35,910 --> 00:52:42,620 did you go to Alex Cooke's demonstrations when you were pre-planning for? 391 00:52:42,620 --> 00:52:52,940 He used to demonstrate cases and draw physiological stories from preclinical students? 392 00:52:52,940 --> 00:52:55,550 Yeah. No, I'm not aware of that. 393 00:52:55,550 --> 00:53:05,090 And then when you come back in 1980, what you say or did you see a change in the relationship between the preclinical and clinical schools? 394 00:53:05,090 --> 00:53:08,880 Did they get together more or not? Really. Not really there. 395 00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:17,750 That's what I that's what I fear, which is that, of course, we had clinical tutors. 396 00:53:17,750 --> 00:53:24,320 Yes, you did. Yeah, that was a change, of course. 397 00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:30,530 Well, I have a across. I remember and I remember the House of Woodstock parade, but and he was wonderful. 398 00:53:30,530 --> 00:53:39,760 But I mean, there were many wonderful characters from that time when we were students is. 399 00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:50,690 He. He was a pillar of the consultant. 400 00:53:50,690 --> 00:53:58,070 Much of the concern is that the regular quality is more so than which, frankly, it is. 401 00:53:58,070 --> 00:54:11,130 No, no, I know what you mean. What about Pat Mallon? He was just accepted as a frank alcoholic, let's put it that way. 402 00:54:11,130 --> 00:54:17,330 Is it real, brother? Which of the surgeons do you really remember? 403 00:54:17,330 --> 00:54:26,960 Well, of course, one can't help remembering Ted Malone, but he used to come in to give lectures, but Bayley loved to finish that page. 404 00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:32,060 Twenty five or whatever, Reed brings scrutiny. 405 00:54:32,060 --> 00:54:43,810 You know, he was a character. It's an attempt to tell who hunted is down and. 406 00:54:43,810 --> 00:54:52,630 Then it was the other one who was a very upright surgeon whose name escapes me at the moment present beginning with a C. 407 00:54:52,630 --> 00:55:07,710 Yeah, it's it's it's not Coke, but it's like A. The DBC was very much a pillar amongst the Oh, that was another one of Elliott Smith. 408 00:55:07,710 --> 00:55:11,920 Miss Elliott Smith. That's a remote was there. And the other one, beginning with C. 409 00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:18,580 What was his name? And that kind of remember. I knew it when he was quite sort of withdrawn. 410 00:55:18,580 --> 00:55:22,780 Yes. But he was an efficient surgeon. Yes. 411 00:55:22,780 --> 00:55:30,280 That Elliott Smith was so very reliable in the Andrew J. 412 00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:35,110 Pennebaker, did you? You must have been attached to that a little. 413 00:55:35,110 --> 00:55:51,780 And the neurologist major. Richie Russell, director, Richie Rose. 414 00:55:51,780 --> 00:55:59,430 They all seem to be very distinguished and upright man, and to me, 415 00:55:59,430 --> 00:56:05,130 is that agree there were no women to, I remember them, except of course, there had been Alice. 416 00:56:05,130 --> 00:56:09,480 Yes. And Sheila Callander was a sort of consultant. Yes, she was. 417 00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:17,580 Is. Do you remember her? And I guess, yeah, because she's worked in the West area for so long. 418 00:56:17,580 --> 00:56:21,810 And you did as a husband? Yeah. Because who did you really work for? 419 00:56:21,810 --> 00:56:25,980 Was it with all the time or through the wars she faces? 420 00:56:25,980 --> 00:56:37,020 When I did the house job, which was on the eve and Pickering took over that, that he was doing it sort of trial run. 421 00:56:37,020 --> 00:56:41,310 Oh, I see from there, is it? Yeah, it's from there is Jill's right? 422 00:56:41,310 --> 00:56:46,170 So he filled in for which it must have been interesting. Yeah, yeah. 423 00:56:46,170 --> 00:56:57,650 Is there anything else you'd like to say reminds me of this various resistance? 424 00:56:57,650 --> 00:57:02,940 It's it's there. I don't remember their names anymore, but of course, 425 00:57:02,940 --> 00:57:14,710 in those days we could rely heavily on the sisters and charge nurses to teach us as house officers to teach us what we needed to do. 426 00:57:14,710 --> 00:57:21,030 That's very indeed. I don't think that's right. No, I think that's right. 427 00:57:21,030 --> 00:57:29,850 And the matron to me, although I never knew them, but no individual people didn't really know her. 428 00:57:29,850 --> 00:57:44,490 But I think she had a real influence going around. But no, the the sisters and the charge nurses were marvellous and they were both very, very good. 429 00:57:44,490 --> 00:57:48,690 And John Baden, was he there? Yes, he was. 430 00:57:48,690 --> 00:58:00,570 I still see and they know it's why they're going to die because she was one of four sisters who all became nurses. 431 00:58:00,570 --> 00:58:15,330 In the old spirit of nursing and they all married doctors sue the NBA and Larry Joan Bay, no one married. 432 00:58:15,330 --> 00:58:29,860 As the Cairns, you guys and John Cairns is now living in Oxford, actually the son of one married Alan Clements, who was Keith's best friend, 433 00:58:29,860 --> 00:58:41,650 maudlin contemporary music mogul and who had emigrated to California just before we did and then moved to New York when I moved to Cornell. 434 00:58:41,650 --> 00:58:47,950 And so I made it very close to the clemencies. 435 00:58:47,950 --> 00:58:52,440 And so now I sort of see the other elements of the other side. 436 00:58:52,440 --> 00:59:00,280 Is everyone married Matthews? Matthews, who was, of course, of Teddy, who was good. 437 00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:05,140 So you saw him. So I saw him. He was on the interviewing panel. 438 00:59:05,140 --> 00:59:11,710 So I think I read quite a lot, Brian, but like getting the job. 439 00:59:11,710 --> 00:59:15,880 But I know because he was sort of attached, as you were saying. 440 00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:19,180 Yes, it was a formal joint appointment, but still, 441 00:59:19,180 --> 00:59:30,770 the college hat to the college said no that the university could not appoint their selected candidate. 442 00:59:30,770 --> 00:59:35,810 Colin and Colin Blakemore could be I mean, he is a mere boy, of course, 443 00:59:35,810 --> 00:59:42,980 when he first got the chair, but he's now an American emeritus fellow remotely. 444 00:59:42,980 --> 01:00:02,330 He's quite ancient and he's got a night because they they've denied him a. 445 01:00:02,330 --> 01:00:18,920 I haven't been head of the MRC and played a big role in this sort of public relations of animal research is use very good and highly articulate. 446 01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:25,910 He was always late. Was that, erm? Yeah, he was a bit of a boy. 447 01:00:25,910 --> 01:00:34,060 But he was always very nice to me, and he never held it against me that I got the job in the department when he wanted his neurophysiology. 448 01:00:34,060 --> 01:00:38,060 Now I'm sure he would make a good point. 449 01:00:38,060 --> 01:00:53,990 Partly, of course, because Victor Coxsone died. And so he is grateful that somebody could step in and do the teaching. 450 01:00:53,990 --> 01:00:59,480 But I think I'll close down and thank you very much. That was very interesting indeed. 451 01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:01,763 Thanks a lot. Thank you.