Sequence, this is 20th January, and then Taylor is being interviewed by Derek Hockaday,
and I guess you came to the two Oxford and 46 right up to walks up to Oxford.
You lived here, did you? In fact?
Well, my parents had moved to Oxford during the war because of the schools, and I was sent to the Oxford High School for girls.
You've told me that you entered the medical school in 46,
but before that you lived in Oxford and gone to the high school and that before that
your father had won a scholarship to Jesus and had really enjoyed his time in Oxford.
During the war, he had volunteered to join the army as an intelligence officer,
and he was stationed in Bicester at Booster, and at that time I was sent off to boarding school.
But then they decided to move into Oxford for the schools.
And so I had grown up from the age group about 15, I suppose, in Oxford.
So it was familiar territory. So I was duly entered for Somerville, which was sort of considered to be the brain.
And actually, five of us, five girls from Somerville got applied to go places from the high school, from the high school.
So I got information.
And in those days there was a courageous system and women came off rather badly in that only two women could go from each women's college.
There were only five women's colleges anyway, so there were a total of 10 women in the medical school intake.
But we seem to be seen to be more of a mess at some of them.
But at that time, there was no medical tutor or physiology due to something that we were under the care,
as it were of the chemistry tutor who was Dorothy Hodgkin, who of course, subsequently won.
I think it was the Nobel prise. Yeah, absolutely.
And she didn't ever teach me, but I used to meet up with her twice a term, and she didn't strike one as being quite amazingly brilliant.
But she was very, very pleasant and very self-effacing individual and we were what was called farmed out for our tutorials.
We were sent to the tutors at LNH.
Sue. I duly took first IBM in 1958.
I think that would be probably get my date sorted.
Forty two. And in 1949, I took schools, as with the custom on the School of Physiology and Biochemistry, and I got a first in schools and.
I think I was the first woman to go to first for 10 years or something like that, but that, of course, there had been others that many years.
And those women included Janet Vaughan, and at the time that I was at, Somerville was the principal of some of them.
She was quite a terrifying character, rather much rather like an eagle.
But she was certainly superb one and ask impossible questions.
I remember that in the interview, I was interviewed for a scholarship and turn it into a very stern answers.
Now, Miss Hughes Jones. I was a good Welsh girl by birth.
Were you interested in going into academic medicine or clinical medicine?
Well, I was completely nonplussed. 17 year old schoolgirl.
It never occurred to me that I could do anything in medical medicine, so I sit there silently and it's a total confusion.
So I fluff the interview and I didn't get the scholarship and who your tutor is actually for.
Be Ms. Who did you happen to? Who you tutored? But I have to think about what I was.
And what about schools? And you probably remember, well, the man who tutor who really had a big influence on me was Oliver Smithies.
Right? Also in due course won the Nobel prise. He's in America now, right?
Is he in zoology when he was in biochemistry at that time?
I thought it was a biochemist and he had a very enquiring mind.
He taught me how to think. I owe a lot to him.
But at the time, I rather despised him because he didn't seem to know anything.
I didn't know any physiology. So you said that you used to teach him physiology.
What did you think of the school year and did you enjoy it?
Yes, I did, because one was allowed to just do one's own thing, and my approach to schools was to read very widely around the subject.
I'd be given a short reading list, but I would go back through the literature by looking at the references at the back, and I'd read back, Yes.
And I remember reading everything, but Lashley, who was a neuroscientist, had ever published.
Wow, that's good because he thought it was all dispersed uniformly through the brain.
Yes. And that's what do you want to say?
No. But I didn't read everything he wrote or called in play or the tape once.
And that was just I was a student, and he was shocked, surprised and shocked it.
And did you enjoy the practical work? No. Right. There was never any good practical use.
So I didn't really enjoy it. But was the theoretical of the theory that I liked it.
And then you'd done person back? Well, yes, sir.
But as was quite common in those days, I got married at that point and spent at that point.
Keith, my husband, Keith Taylor, was doing a registrar job in London,
so I took the birth of that course from London, and Julie found one of the papers, which was rather disgraceful.
So then you had to take that as a I had to take that again. All right.
So then my career was quite interrupted because I.
Instead of going straight into the clinical course, I took two years out, and that was because Keith had a job at,
had jobs in London and then in Bath and then eventually back to Oxford in the weeks department.
And so then I was enrolled in the clinical school, which at that time was very small.
I can't remember the figures now, but there was something like only about 10 or 12 events in the year.
The clinical intake of my year. But that was very rewarding because we got a lot of attention.
And I remember in particular, Peter. Yes, it was a very clever man.
This went down to Bradford, went on to Bradford City, and of course, all the teaching was down at the Radcliffe.
Everything was done at the most major job right up the hill and the Medical Students Club as it was in the house,
the original house in the Woodstock Road, right next door to the Observatory.
And did I finish the clinical course in one straight swoop?
No, I had another couple of boys. It's time I emerged fully qualified and then I did the White House job.
And after that, I was allowed to do an obstetric house job instead of a straight surgical job.
It was always a possibility. I mean, everywhere, anybody could do that.
It's yeah, but no great. I negotiated down and did it with.
I did share Samoa's joy, and the advantage of doing the professorial jobs was that there were two horsemen.
Yes. And the other with this was the old school boy who was supposed to get the occasional
weekend off to see them and was Keith working in the industry during this time he year,
largely under the influence of Stickney. True love? Right?
Yes. So when you're done the two house jobs, then you are registered.
Then did you go to the Pickering unit? Yes.
Then for a while, I worked in the Pickering unit, and that was in the days that Bush was in the unit.
And Grant me was coming down with Pickering from London.
I think is and Pickering was quite a character. Totally different from which, of course.
But Pickering had an intuitive clinical sense in part, and he would ask to see the look inspect the vomit,
which pick which would never have done, which was one laboratory test after another.
And I found which rather a sterile and difficult man.
Right? But Pickering, you worked clinically with him as well as no, don't really know, right?
No. And what are the differences between Pickering and Wills with you mentioned razor thin?
Well, Pickering was quite human, whereas Typekit,
which was almost sort of rarefied air in his which he didn't descend from very often those who had worked with him for years revered him,
and he was obviously highly intellectual. Mm hmm.
What was your research on then? Oh, some something so trivial, Derek, that I've forgotten within Bush was to always grant.
Yeah, it wasn't with ground. It would switch between Bush and I was measuring some sort of steroids.
Well, he was tremendous chromatography. That's right. He invented paper chromatography were not quite true, but I know he was one of the real pundits.
And he was very keen on the zeros. So you were right at the end of the corridor?
Yes. But I used to go and use a machine, which was some sort of scanner near them right there at the main card.
And the fume COVID came into life.
Pretty much then if you were doing chromatography because some of the solvents were quite noxious to be turned into.
I've always wondered if they were sending round the twist to those who may have been a bit like that before.
Right? But I mean, I worked for them. I was very depressed. Is you very clever?
Yes, absolutely. And tremendous with sort of spectrum, you know?
I mean, you look clever in lots of directions. I didn't realise do work is tell you about it later.
Okay, so you worked with him. What happened after that? Well.
I've got to get the timing right. The keys got a big job in the States.
Basically, that was in 1963. Of course, that we went to the States, right?
I just lost my sense of time where they were round about it, and that was on.
Were you working in the states? Well, not really. No, because in the states women were not supposed to work right.
And Stan Keith got offered a nice job as an associate professor at Stanford.
At Stanford, that was a rule that no two members of the same family could be on the faculty.
And so Keith got a faculty appointment and I could not have a serious appointment.
So I, first of all, managed to land a left a job as a lab assistant,
which involved sticking stomach tubes down grant wrapped and collecting the gastric juice.
And then I slowly migrated to the renal department because when I was a tutor, I missed out being that you wanted a tutor at Sundance and you have it.
Yes. Was that before you went to America? Yes. Yes it is.
So not long after us. Goodness me, I should have thought through the dates properly,
it must have been when you were in the Pickering unit, you couldn't have done it as a Houseman.
That's right. It was immediately after I finished the house jobs and was then working in the Pickering unit,
really in order to sort of maintain some sort of respectability as it were.
But I actually was appointed as the first medical director at Sundance and I was elected, but I was a lecturer to begin with.
And in those days, there were very few science fellows.
In fact, it was only one. She was a zoologist and she left to go to Edinburgh in Edinburgh, and when she left, I was promoted to the fellowship.
To my surprise. So I was a fellow with ups and downs for a period of about six years.
Yes. And that was a sort of full time job. Well, no.
Indeed, it was perfectly compatible with life. Yes.
Well, no. But you weren't doing anything else. No, you stop the Pickering work.
No, I was doing the Pickering. Right before that.
I had actually been working with a vet in the Nuffield Department of Medicine in the Nuffield Institute.
Kind of the forerunner of the zoo.
Is that Perry? Yes, Perry. And I'm amazed.
I mean. And what did you do with Perry?
Well, I came out of the obstetrics job with Qassim and wishing that I could go into obstetrics, but it was really not compatible with being a mother.
And so I settled on the job with Perry because it was something that was slightly related and he was working on so-called toxic pregnancy in sheep.
Yes. With Geoffrey Doors with Geoffrey Dorset, Geoffrey was very much on the fringe of that.
And so I did a bit of work with Perry, and I didn't put on a very good impression of Perry.
Yeah, it was a pleasant man. And Geoffrey towards was sort of becoming more and more peripheral somehow, rather other it was.
But at that time I had my academic respectability was maintained by my appointment.
And yes. And it was while I was sometimes that the other tutors nudged me into teaching on
the kidney because there were very few people around it to teach on the kidney.
So you ready to give up? Yes.
And then when I got when we got to Stanford, I managed to wangle my way into a minor lectureship in the physiology department there,
which was pretty much a known job in a known department.
But I did a bit of I introduced tutorial teaching yes to that, which the students love.
Yeah, I read, particularly the Chinese students exhibit quite a number of mentors and slowly.
Then I moved into Roy Mathletes renal unit in the Department of Medicine.
There was no real physiology department to speak of at Stanford at that time or me in Hammersmith and so on.
They were all doctors rather who were doing kidney work, and I think they were very.
And had you enjoyed being a tutor in Oxford? Oh yes, I liked it very much indeed in a tutorial now.
I mean, did people read an essay? Do you? Yes.
Yes. In the traditional way, but I always felt in retrospect that spent half of the time,
it's not it's not a very demanding job from the point of view of the shooter.
But there was the tremendous benefit of the personal interaction and being able to pick up on the
individual points as the student carried out and essay because they did this within the days women-only.
You see, I had the advantage that at times they could only appoint a woman because they had started appointing and admitting men show time.
And did you have some very bright students, one or two?
Yes, but I remember one, particularly bright one.
And she taught me about actually talking and who is not good at school.
And have you kept up with her?
No, not really. Well, there was one whose daughters ended up at Teddy Hall in my time at Teddy, who?
And so then you went to America and got to the renal unit, eventually medical.
When you're doing clinical work on the renal unit? No, no. Because I never took the qualifying exams.
Yes, I contemplated doing it, doing them.
And I had even paid the entrance fee to take the exam once exorbitant, some bits.
And it was messed up.
I didn't get it. It didn't arrive until I was something, and I was quite pleased.
It didn't because by that time I was completely disillusioned by American made the medical
system whereby somebody who had been run over on the street would be picked up in an ambulance.
And if they had Blue Shield Blue Cross Medical Insurance, they would be admitted to emergency A&E Stanford.
And if they didn't have it, they were driven on another 20 miles towards San Francisco to San Mateo County Hospital beds.
And I thought, I don't want to practise medicine in this system.
And so I concentrated on research. And so I should tell you at this point that really actually worked on the toad bladder,
the two during the day, and he had trained with Leif Alex Leach in Boston.
In Boston, he had good credentials, but he didn't have an original idea in his life.
And he was a nice man, not a research work and not creative in any way at all.
But he did get me a job and he allowed me to do my own thing, and I happened to have to be very nice,
bright young Canadian medick who was about to turn into a psychiatrist.
He was working in the nephrology department, but he decided to get out and go into psychiatry and getting very, very bored with what he was reading.
He in the library. He picked up a book or an edition of the Journal of Cell Biology and found
himself reading a paper on the cytoskeleton on microtubules and microfluidics.
And he came back and started reading about this to me.
And I looked up to and we got quite enthusiastic about it and decided that
we were going to try the effects of colchicine and other anti mitotic drugs,
which was the dismantling of microtubules, right?
And interfere with their action and see what effect it has on the action of face to person in the movement.
Roy Murphy allowed us to do our own thing. And so he was an inmate and he wasn't at all sure we were what we were doing.
He wasn't when it came to the International Congress of Nephrology in Mexico City.
He went and put in a paper on the very conventional subject,
and he didn't want to let me submit my abstract, but somebody else persuaded him to do so.
And of course, by that, it was actually completely new because nobody had ever thought of doing this before.
It was his accepted as well. And. No, I think mine was that was the beginning at Stanford.
If you didn't have a full academic position, you couldn't apply. At that particular time, you couldn't apply for an I.h grant.
Right? In fact, there were some women who had been allowed to apply for NIH grants,
but at that point they toughened up the rules and those people had to give up, too.
So that was a bit of a women's liberation route in at Stanford Medical School.
So I wrote a grant application on my project and really actually put his name to it.
Yeah, because Stanford wouldn't have accepted it, wouldn't have sponsored it otherwise.
And he was a different grant application with his name on it.
To be submitted to my grant was accepted to do so that all the work in the lab went over to my I project.
Right, right. So this was quite exciting days because they were exciting days in the field of cell biology.
Yes. And there were a lot of meetings of the cell biologists going all across the country.
And I went to many, many meetings and the nephrologists look,
we're quite interested in what I was doing, but didn't quite know what to make of it to begin with.
So then Keith came back to England for a bit, didn't he?
Yes, he did. And did you go with him or not? No, because by that time we had split up what I wanted.
But he had already remarried, right? Actually, he came back with his second one and he came back in to an administrative job at the life of me.
I kind of was a clinical chatterjee. I think in the winter, you know, he wanted to be a clinical tutor, but that was before we left.
And David Pipe got the job right. And Keith didn't get the job, and Keith was rather upset about that.
And that was one factor that made you decide that he was going to go to America.
No, it was. It was purely institutional and administrative sort of thing that he was doing later on.
But anyhow, he came back to America. But I mean, you went on working in.
Yes.
But what happened at Stanford was that Roy Murphy, after the slight embarrassment of my grant being funded and is not, he decided to close the lab.
I can't have it. So suddenly I had no job.
And then I by that time, I had some supporters,
amongst other nephrologists in San Francisco and around the place, and even Alex Leaf was still working.
I think. And so I was put up for various jobs at NIH and at Cornell,
and I moved to the Department of Physiology at Cornell University Medical School, which is in Manhattan.
Right the main campus, of course, is up in this.
That's what I thought is that the physiology was Manhattan.
Yes.
Well, the medical school was Manhattan because the rationale being you got to have a hospital and a medical medical school to train medical students,
and they've got to have a population to serve that needs it's got to be a new city.
So Cornell University Medical School was right next door to Rockefeller.
Right on the east side of Manhattan, which was the hospital. Well, one thing, right?
OK, physically attacked. Yes. Yes. And the physiology department was focussed entirely on US epithelial transport.
Hmm. Kidney gut. So just your thing.
Just wonderful. Great research environment to be in.
So you were working on microtubules to do is to puncture them or whatever you can't do.
No, I didn't have the fluid that fluid in around there disassemble when your tissue was exposed to empty my agents.
So I just got to see and blast in very interesting. There's a whole series of things.
And when still at Stanford, I had done some quite elaborate over the top studies looking at the temperature, dependence and all these different drugs.
And they also behaved pharmacologically the way they should do.
So it looked fairly convincing, right? I see.
And then micro filaments were very much in the in the West,
any one agent due to the fact that this was just a surgical base in which was an imperfect tool, but better than nothing.
And so I had a very nice, modern lab when I moved to Cornell,
I just it just happened that they extended the building and the the two or three new labs,
and I got one of them in a very supportive environment and I changed my name.
Yeah. So, you know, it's grown to right and work hard at that over time.
But I did do that and I gave quite a lot of talks and federation proceedings, meetings and that sort of thing.
Mm hmm. So it was very productive and I would have been very good to have stayed.
But I after five years I thought, I can't live in Manhattan forever.
And it's very stimulating. In New York, it's just so much energy in New York, and I actually love New York compared with Palo Alto.
All right, which of course, is now subsumed in Silicon Valley.
But. California's nice sort of peaceful place to live if one wants to play tennis.
But it's such and such good tennis was never a tennis, so I applied for a job here in Oxford, in the department or in a college energy park suit.
There was a there was a university lecturer.
Lectureship was.
Advertised in the physiology department, and I managed to land that ship, and by that time, joint appointments appointments were the No.
Yes, sir. If you've got the university job, you've got allocated to a college.
And so I was that my job was twinned with containment hall.
Yes, sir. When was this in 1980? Right?
Yeah. And so you have the two of the medical preclinical?
Yes, I was the preclinical chieftain. And did you find things had changed since the time you very much.
Of course, it was wonderful to get back to teaching in the tutorial system as opposed to addressing 70 medical students in the lectures,
which is this which I was what I was doing a little bit of stem,
but they didn't really think I was respectable and academically respectable enough to give a lecture to it.
And they gave me lecture, give us a course of lectures to the nurses and to the engineers.
I remember that at Cornell, you'd been lecturing to the medical significance.
So if in fact, I mean, and did you lecture in Oxford and you were tutoring, but did you lecture?
In fact you would, sir. I read renal physiology course.
And as it happened, I was lucky to get the job because Colin Blakemore had been appointed as professor of physiology.
A few months or years, little time early, and there was a very good neurophysiologist from Cambridge who he would have liked to got the job.
You're running out of time. You know, not to just take my picture. And I.
They needed. They didn't know it at the time, but the man who was teaching doing the regional physiology was Victor Cox.
Oh yes, Victor. Yeah. When he wasn't really a renal physiologist, he worked largely on body fluid,
body fluid volumes, extra sedative fluid, that sort of thing he was interested in.
And when I got when I arrived in the job, people would ask me, why?
Why don't you sit questions on extracellular fluid volume?
And I said, Well, nobody is interested in that. Nobody's working on it.
And there are all these amazing data coming out of American labs and make sure the individual I know to relate to it.
You do make a bunch of them. No, I didn't. I stuck with the two.
Yeah, but as of which, there was a lot of publication on them and it was a very useful tool.
I remember trying to set it up. It's that much success. Yeah, that's another thing.
And Leave actually spent a sabbatical in Oxford or Cambridge, isn't it?
Is the news unit. Krebs, I thing is, I think you're right in biochemistry.
That's right. That was before I came back to Oxford. But now your course in renal physiology was a pre.
In the first two years, I was out in the online school. All of those?
Yes, go ahead. So when I was at Cornell, the rule in the physiology department,
the head of the department at that time insisted that every faculty member should sit
through every lecture so they would know because there was sometimes group sort of teaching.
And so we we all have to say we did sit through them all, and there were some excellent lecturers like Barry Brenner from Harvard.
And because they would, they would they would be the resident staff as well, but also visiting lecturers, lecturers came in.
So I assiduously took notes thinking one day, maybe I'm going to be giving these lectures.
Maybe one day I'll give these lectures saying, No, I don't.
I don't think I ever did dream of that.
But anyway, when I got the job, I had these wonderful notes from these very, very excellent, highly regarded people.
So it wasn't difficult to take. And what happened was that Victor Cox died of a coronary within a year of my return.
Right? Well, I think he'd retired, but then he died.
Yes, he died. He died in the job, right? Yes. Oh, I see.
You came over while he was still there. I'm I'm confusing things there.
I didn't. I'd been appointed, of course. But then there's always an interim period.
It was nine months later and I hadn't turned up for the job because I remember getting a letter from Colin Blakemore saying,
We're sorry to have to tell you that Jackson died unexpectedly.
Yeah. And so in any future correspondence, you need to talk to Charles Michel, who will sort of take over from him in terms of general arrangements.
And so in a way, it was lucky that they had given me the job that the appointments committee had appointed me rather than the neurophysiologist,
because of course, the department was stuffed with, you know, physiologists.
So I was able to just step in like that with these prefabricated lectures.
Would you say you returned to this country was partly because of your parents, you,
my mother was still alive at that point because she was 90 and my brother had arranged for her to go into a
home because she was still living in a large house in some motorists quite inappropriate for her at that age.
And so there she was.
And so I was relieved that was that was really one of the main reasons why I said I wouldn't have left such a
good job and such a good to know under the influence of my dad and how many changes that you see in Oxford.
So say, 20 years you must have been in the department. India as a whole, since I came back in 1980 onwards, yes, I retired in ninety five.
Fifteen years. Yeah, well, not not a lot really talks talk.
It doesn't change. Well, now Blakemore was there and George Gordon was there because George used that George because he was my tutor at one time.
You the school, some of it. Yes, he taught me for schools in the area.
And what did you think of that? Well, George was delightful, but he wasn't the most hyper to do.
I don't know if I, but the spoofing that I've done involves and and and yeah,
he sometimes ran the department when Blake Bell was off somewhere or concentrating on his experiments.
I think in physiology, he was the sort of standing head of physiology at times, George, when he was in there.
But there may have been before you came back. No, he's a businessman.
And who else was there with you in the. Well, I remember David with Richard because it was.
But of course, he had gotten it wasn't there anymore, David, which went to Edinburgh, didn't you?
Now we reckon he was alive, but he was quite high powered and a bit frightening in a way.
Correct. But he had taught me as an undergraduate and had examined me in schools.
Right? So I mean, you went through tours with this George and Richard?
Yes, I did. I mean, would you sometimes go to one person for a bit of the term and then another for the rest of the term?
Well, yes. But what was which course was which Richard teaching?
Well, I mean, George was definitely a peripheral sensation, yes.
And which might have been a bit higher up thing in the near axis than it was which Richard neurophysiology.
Oh, yes. Yes, absolutely. I knew him quite well, and I knew his wife.
But I figured she could read her with writing good and see as well.
Is that her claim to fame? And do you think that the Oxford system was a good one?
Well, I mean, there were people who wanted to do clinical medicine.
Many of them. Did you think it was right? They were all going through the schools here?
Yes. I think it exercised their brains and forced them to think of it.
Yes. It's just the way that Oliver Smithies got me thinking I wasn't agitating to get on and get qualified,
but all that might have suited me in certain ways.
All right. And I think everybody was perfectly happy to have those extra here in Oxford.
Did you do just sense? And there were some.
George was one of them who thought of what you should do was do two years for first Ben and then do your person back and have four terms for schools.
Oh yes. I mean, did you fight for that at any rate at the time? I've never heard of that.
Right, right. But that would have been good because there was that extra term hanging around, wasn't it?
Yes, it's broken backwards. If you didn't fail it, it was a two term.
And George was so sweet, he invited me to dine in bracelets several times.
He lived in Killington. Yes, around the corner in the movies and strategies 20, the 20 the most was new on the corner.
So it's a coincidence. Did going to see the. I've never been able to find anybody where he did, right?
That was. Where was it? It's. And was George married?
Oh, yes. Peggy and Peggy was a senior what we used to call home homeowners, and they felt that stuff going on.
She was a senior lady. And I believe a very good one.
And their new duties always remembers her saying that because what we really need to be able to do with these people is give them a five pound note,
which is much better than a lot of it is.
And they, of course, had serious academic credentials, didn't you?
Because his father had been vice president of Maudlin? Yes, yes.
He was a professor of English and then one of his essays in a little book called The Discipline of Letters.
He writes, Illness is in itself a form of inefficiency.
Well, that's obviously true. But, you know, George got tuberculosis when he was a clinical did.
I think there has been, I think, probably a husband because he did JCPenney JCPenney back Pennebaker's Joe,
but didn't think it was canned and it must have been cans and Pennebaker and he had tuberculosis and had to take take off.
And I think then in those days you'd say that, you know, if you had tuberculosis, you wouldn't fit enough to do clinical medicine.
And I think he always really regretted all that. Did he never do any comments?
No, except for this health jobs that haven't? Oh yes, he did.
Yes, but he didn't. No, he didn't get on with the job that he's that he would have liked.
I think when you have a PMC is secretly talking to you.
Yeah. Um. Okay. Anything else you'd like to say?
Well, you know, I've said quite a lot or you have, but you know that I have true diversity of a.
How much support did you get with the children, I mean, did you have nannies or?
Yeah, the neighbours see what we actually did when I started the clinical course.
And. It was then I started the clinical course.
My father had died of the cold and my mother was living in some Margaret Street,
so she was recently widowed and she the house was very big, but she had some lodges in it.
But he said no between me and Dicky, so I do actually.
I thought, Well, we move into this Margaret's road house with my mother.
It was very hard on my mother and my mother always feel my mother had a dog and she's forced
to get rid of the dog because there was some scare at that time about what you could pick up.
Dogs can't remember what that was toxoplasmosis.
So we moved in with my mother and she was a priceless back up.
And I also in Florida, what's called a mother's helper.
His and that mother's helper lived with us there in the Margaret Street house for many years.
And then, funnily enough, when I came back from the states,
I found her handing out glasses of sherry in the front cord of Teddy, who would look at your cupboard.
You know, it's a tremendous coincidence.
And she was actually looking after the principal, John Kelly, the somewhat notorious principal, and he was a great character.
And when he retired, she looked after the principals, the lodgings, and when he retired,
he moved into a house that he bought in Creek Road and he was more worried and it was to go and help looking after him.
And eventually, I said to Maureen, who become a family friend over the years.
I said to John, Clearly doesn't need your services anymore, please.
Will you come and look up to me? So in recent years, she has been to help me here in the great.
It's lovely. Yes, I'm still in touch with her because she doesn't do it any.
Then when you came back around, 1980 worked the whole taking women.
I was the first woman fellow of Teddy, right, what about undergraduates?
There were one or two. Right? Yes. Yes. So they started taking women in 1979.
And a few women had sneaked in as graduate students before that.
But Teddy, who was not one of the first colleges to admit women, they were good at Reagan.
That's right. And still, that still has repercussions to this day.
I mean, do you see that affecting admissions at Rio?
No, not really. But. During a when you were an undergraduate.
Really, the relationship between the preclinical and clinical departments was pretty scanned there,
did you go to Alex Cooke's demonstrations when you were pre-planning for?
He used to demonstrate cases and draw physiological stories from preclinical students?
Yeah. No, I'm not aware of that.
And then when you come back in 1980, what you say or did you see a change in the relationship between the preclinical and clinical schools?
Did they get together more or not? Really. Not really there.
That's what I that's what I fear, which is that, of course, we had clinical tutors.
Yes, you did. Yeah, that was a change, of course.
Well, I have a across. I remember and I remember the House of Woodstock parade, but and he was wonderful.
But I mean, there were many wonderful characters from that time when we were students is.
He. He was a pillar of the consultant.
Much of the concern is that the regular quality is more so than which, frankly, it is.
No, no, I know what you mean. What about Pat Mallon? He was just accepted as a frank alcoholic, let's put it that way.
Is it real, brother? Which of the surgeons do you really remember?
Well, of course, one can't help remembering Ted Malone, but he used to come in to give lectures, but Bayley loved to finish that page.
Twenty five or whatever, Reed brings scrutiny.
You know, he was a character. It's an attempt to tell who hunted is down and.
Then it was the other one who was a very upright surgeon whose name escapes me at the moment present beginning with a C.
Yeah, it's it's it's not Coke, but it's like A. The DBC was very much a pillar amongst the Oh, that was another one of Elliott Smith.
Miss Elliott Smith. That's a remote was there. And the other one, beginning with C.
What was his name? And that kind of remember. I knew it when he was quite sort of withdrawn.
Yes. But he was an efficient surgeon. Yes.
That Elliott Smith was so very reliable in the Andrew J.
Pennebaker, did you? You must have been attached to that a little.
And the neurologist major. Richie Russell, director, Richie Rose.
They all seem to be very distinguished and upright man, and to me,
is that agree there were no women to, I remember them, except of course, there had been Alice.
Yes. And Sheila Callander was a sort of consultant. Yes, she was.
Is. Do you remember her? And I guess, yeah, because she's worked in the West area for so long.
And you did as a husband? Yeah. Because who did you really work for?
Was it with all the time or through the wars she faces?
When I did the house job, which was on the eve and Pickering took over that, that he was doing it sort of trial run.
Oh, I see from there, is it? Yeah, it's from there is Jill's right?
So he filled in for which it must have been interesting. Yeah, yeah.
Is there anything else you'd like to say reminds me of this various resistance?
It's it's there. I don't remember their names anymore, but of course,
in those days we could rely heavily on the sisters and charge nurses to teach us as house officers to teach us what we needed to do.
That's very indeed. I don't think that's right. No, I think that's right.
And the matron to me, although I never knew them, but no individual people didn't really know her.
But I think she had a real influence going around. But no, the the sisters and the charge nurses were marvellous and they were both very, very good.
And John Baden, was he there? Yes, he was.
I still see and they know it's why they're going to die because she was one of four sisters who all became nurses.
In the old spirit of nursing and they all married doctors sue the NBA and Larry Joan Bay, no one married.
As the Cairns, you guys and John Cairns is now living in Oxford, actually the son of one married Alan Clements, who was Keith's best friend,
maudlin contemporary music mogul and who had emigrated to California just before we did and then moved to New York when I moved to Cornell.
And so I made it very close to the clemencies.
And so now I sort of see the other elements of the other side.
Is everyone married Matthews? Matthews, who was, of course, of Teddy, who was good.
So you saw him. So I saw him. He was on the interviewing panel.
So I think I read quite a lot, Brian, but like getting the job.
But I know because he was sort of attached, as you were saying.
Yes, it was a formal joint appointment, but still,
the college hat to the college said no that the university could not appoint their selected candidate.
Colin and Colin Blakemore could be I mean, he is a mere boy, of course,
when he first got the chair, but he's now an American emeritus fellow remotely.
He's quite ancient and he's got a night because they they've denied him a.
I haven't been head of the MRC and played a big role in this sort of public relations of animal research is use very good and highly articulate.
He was always late. Was that, erm? Yeah, he was a bit of a boy.
But he was always very nice to me, and he never held it against me that I got the job in the department when he wanted his neurophysiology.
Now I'm sure he would make a good point.
Partly, of course, because Victor Coxsone died. And so he is grateful that somebody could step in and do the teaching.
But I think I'll close down and thank you very much. That was very interesting indeed.
Thanks a lot. Thank you.