1 00:00:02,270 --> 00:00:06,650 Hello and welcome to Regional Classics, a podcast from the University of Oxford, 2 00:00:06,650 --> 00:00:13,580 which reflects and celebrates the diverse voices of Oxford classicists past and present from different parts of the UK. 3 00:00:13,580 --> 00:00:16,490 All the while creating thought provoking conversations, 4 00:00:16,490 --> 00:00:22,580 breaking down barriers and showing that if you want to study the ancient world, any aspect of politics, 5 00:00:22,580 --> 00:00:28,610 history, art, science, literature, culture and much more than you can observe, 6 00:00:28,610 --> 00:00:34,150 classicists do not and need not come from only a narrow cross-section of society. 7 00:00:34,150 --> 00:00:43,220 This episode features three oxford classicists from the southwest of England, an area recently identified as one experiencing classics poverty. 8 00:00:43,220 --> 00:00:47,360 That is a lack of access to classical subjects in schools. 9 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:55,790 Joining me today to talk about their own pathways into classics from this underrepresented area are Dr. Rebecca Armstrong, 10 00:00:55,790 --> 00:01:01,250 an associate professor in classical languages and literature at St Hilda's College. 11 00:01:01,250 --> 00:01:08,360 Molly Gibson Mee a former classics and English student at Oriel College, where she was also a master's student. 12 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:14,330 You might know her YouTube channel, Molly at Oxford, which has over 11000 subscribers. 13 00:01:14,330 --> 00:01:18,260 And Justin Vyvyan Jones, an undergraduate at St. 14 00:01:18,260 --> 00:01:23,480 Hugh's College, where he studies Classics and German, and he's in his third year. 15 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:27,690 Thank you all so much for taking part in this podcast. 16 00:01:27,690 --> 00:01:35,770 So, Justin, can you tell me which part of the southwest do you come from and what was your first encounter with the ancient world? 17 00:01:35,770 --> 00:01:42,220 OK, so I am from the Brendon Hills, which is in Somerset, kind, just below Exmoor, 18 00:01:42,220 --> 00:01:47,500 and I grew up for the services my life with and around the Bridgewater area. 19 00:01:47,500 --> 00:01:50,980 That is just amazing. And then when I was about 10 miles out to the Brenden's, 20 00:01:50,980 --> 00:01:57,490 so I grew up through village schools and I went to Kingsmead Community school a state comp in Wivelivscombe 21 00:01:57,490 --> 00:02:03,490 And then I did my sixth form in Ricard Huish here in Taunton first, which was a really good question. 22 00:02:03,490 --> 00:02:09,340 So I'm really lucky in that my parents were always very big on making that kind of part of our lives. 23 00:02:09,340 --> 00:02:16,630 So ever since I can't remember we've been traipsing up down hill forts and places to museums and stuff, 24 00:02:16,630 --> 00:02:20,770 but within the classroom, I guess, primary school schooling, first encounter, 25 00:02:20,770 --> 00:02:25,240 I remember doing creative stuff with the Egyptians and Greeks and Romans and it was 26 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:30,020 all really colourful and exciting so that stands out still in my memory and secondary school. 27 00:02:30,020 --> 00:02:36,370 I don't really remember much to do with the ancient world directly, although in a slightly bored afternoon, 28 00:02:36,370 --> 00:02:45,820 I did just pick up the Illiad from the school library and I was the first to grab it since 1998 and just started reading it and loved it. 29 00:02:45,820 --> 00:02:49,900 And so I think that was part of my early journey towards classics. 30 00:02:49,900 --> 00:02:53,380 But in terms of actual study of the ancient world proper, 31 00:02:53,380 --> 00:03:01,840 I was on the open day at Richard Huish and I just happened to bump into a fantastic teacher called Sam Desmond in the corridor there. 32 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:08,920 And we just got talking. And basically, yeah, she introduced me to classical civilisation, which is the A Level she taught. 33 00:03:08,920 --> 00:03:13,900 And it sounded really fun, really exciting. And I thought, you know what, I'll give it to go. 34 00:03:13,900 --> 00:03:21,850 And I was planning to do French, German and maths before I could squeeze a cheeky bit of Class Civ ive in that, you know, a bit of diversion, a bit of fun 35 00:03:21,850 --> 00:03:26,110 But if I can focus on my proper subject at the end of the year, within the week, 36 00:03:26,110 --> 00:03:31,810 I was completely in love with it, head over heels and just never really look back. 37 00:03:31,810 --> 00:03:38,410 And then Sam and the whole community, it really was a community of classicists there, realised that for subjects like that exams are kind of a formality. 38 00:03:38,410 --> 00:03:43,300 It was like just being there in the classroom. That was the thing. You were there. They were fantastically supportive. 39 00:03:43,300 --> 00:03:48,340 And that kind of gave the energy and the drive, which got me to apply to Oxford in combination with German, 40 00:03:48,340 --> 00:03:51,490 which is something I've been very lucky to have since about year seven, 41 00:03:51,490 --> 00:03:55,000 because Kingsmede, one thing does really well as it gets everyone learning languages. 42 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:59,800 I think that really kind of got me firing on all cylinders I'm now using to study the ancient world. 43 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:04,900 But yes, I'd say there's been a fair few points in my life which kind of mean what could be described as the first entrance. 44 00:04:04,900 --> 00:04:12,330 But yes, in a way, it's kind of always been there, but also has to be like those points where it's come in. 45 00:04:12,330 --> 00:04:17,070 Yes, so my experience is similar in some ways, but different in a lot of others, 46 00:04:17,070 --> 00:04:27,210 I remember probably doing similar stuff at primary school vaguely, but I think the first real encounter I had with it in school was in year 10. 47 00:04:27,210 --> 00:04:31,980 We had I was doing history and we had a module called The History of Medicine. 48 00:04:31,980 --> 00:04:40,500 And we spent one class doing about Roman medicine and hygiene and looking at aqueducts and the Roman Romans, some things. 49 00:04:40,500 --> 00:04:43,710 And my teacher, when she was organising the school trip, 50 00:04:43,710 --> 00:04:53,490 for history decided that Rome somehow tied in to our overall course based on that one lesson and organised a school trip to Rome. 51 00:04:53,490 --> 00:04:59,010 So we actually went to Rome and year 10. But I knew absolutely nothing about anything I was looking at. 52 00:04:59,010 --> 00:05:05,520 And I have this memory in my mind of being stood in the forum, in the pouring rain and having no idea what I was looking at. 53 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:12,840 and just feeling really miserable, which is obviously very frustrating to look back on because I was surrounded by obviously the forum. 54 00:05:12,840 --> 00:05:17,850 But that was the first encounter I had with it. I it wasn't offered in my secondary school. 55 00:05:17,850 --> 00:05:24,690 And then I think outside of school I remember seeing it extensively in the Percy Jackson books. 56 00:05:24,690 --> 00:05:33,030 I read them when I was in school, absolutely loved them. And so when it came to choosing my A-levels which were at separate further education college, 57 00:05:33,030 --> 00:05:37,590 because my school and lots of schools in the area didn't have a sixth form, we were choosing on A-levels. 58 00:05:37,590 --> 00:05:41,340 And like what you said, Justin, I was I had my three main ones. 59 00:05:41,340 --> 00:05:44,790 I knew I wanted to do English, so I chose English literature, English language. 60 00:05:44,790 --> 00:05:52,030 And then I also went to I went to a language school and they said that French was a good thing to do. 61 00:05:52,030 --> 00:05:57,720 So I did French. And then I was choosing a fourth one because this was back when asked AS levels existed. 62 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:03,720 And I thought I would use the fourth option as a way to take a chance on a different subject. 63 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:08,140 So I saw that classical civilisation was my level and I knew that I enjoyed that from the Percy Jackson books. 64 00:06:08,140 --> 00:06:15,720 But I thought, OK, I can do that for a year, have a bit of fun, and then drop it and focus on my main three subjects. 65 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:21,780 And then I fell in love with classics. I had an amazing teacher. She she was also incredible and really brought it to life. 66 00:06:21,780 --> 00:06:24,630 And we started off with Cicero and Roman law. 67 00:06:24,630 --> 00:06:31,680 So it wasn't it was immediately like something that could have easily been a bit boring for a bunch of new A level students. 68 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:36,300 But she made it so exciting and so engaging and I just absolutely loved it. 69 00:06:36,300 --> 00:06:43,140 And so that was like the first real encounter I had had with it as a subject. 70 00:06:43,140 --> 00:06:47,310 And this is all to say that I was this was all happening in North Devon. 71 00:06:47,310 --> 00:06:51,510 I come from North Devon and I went to a secondary school. 72 00:06:51,510 --> 00:06:55,870 state comprehension school, and then I went to a further education college in the area. 73 00:06:55,870 --> 00:07:04,510 Right, so I also have north devon connections in my first half, my childhood was spent there as well, 74 00:07:04,510 --> 00:07:13,720 and that is probably where I was when I first encountered Classics through the The Usborne Guide to the Ancient World, which had three in one. 75 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:18,980 It was the ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, ancient Rome. And I read it and read it and read it. 76 00:07:18,980 --> 00:07:25,310 And I had no interest in Greece or Rome, it was all about Egypt. 77 00:07:25,310 --> 00:07:31,000 But as I got older, I, you know, sort of became a kind of the classic interests, I suppose, 78 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:39,350 the the Greek myths and read Roger Lansing Greene's versions of them and various other slightly more modern versions. 79 00:07:39,350 --> 00:07:53,050 And I remember at primary school, we were allowed to write a story for some reason and mine turned into an epic about an escaped slave called Marcus, 80 00:07:53,050 --> 00:07:57,820 which I was allowed to stay in at lunch break to finish my magnum opus. 81 00:07:57,820 --> 00:08:05,830 So that was that was quite good. But differently from you guys, at secondary school, 82 00:08:05,830 --> 00:08:11,300 this was back in the days of government funded scholarships to go to private schools. 83 00:08:11,300 --> 00:08:20,290 So I went to an independent school. So I actually started learning Latin and Greek at secondary school and well, 84 00:08:20,290 --> 00:08:25,070 actually started learning Latin and then rather later started learning Greek. 85 00:08:25,070 --> 00:08:34,360 And that was I mean, I was kind of already interested in the stories and the cultures, but that was where I got my first taste of languages. 86 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:43,460 And I loved Latin and Greek always kind of terrified me and continues to terrify me a bit. 87 00:08:43,460 --> 00:08:51,100 But I also really loved it. And by the time I got to A level, sort of numbers of takers had dropped off. 88 00:08:51,100 --> 00:09:01,600 So Greek in particular was basically me one other girl and a teacher in an attic learning Greek, which is quite sort of romantic flavour to it. 89 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:08,110 But in terms of kind of sense, like more widely kind of classics being something to do, 90 00:09:08,110 --> 00:09:16,900 I don't remember sort of feeling like it, it just didn't feel like a path that many people knew about. 91 00:09:16,900 --> 00:09:20,620 And if they did know about it, they were kind of a bit like, why? 92 00:09:20,620 --> 00:09:23,830 Why would you want to do that? So it did. 93 00:09:23,830 --> 00:09:31,630 Yeah, it did. Kind of you know, it was not until I got to Oxford where suddenly there were loads of other people doing classics that I thought, 94 00:09:31,630 --> 00:09:36,790 OK, it's not actually a completely weird thing to be interested in. 95 00:09:36,790 --> 00:09:42,730 Yeah. Do you feel that perhaps the rural background of where most of you guys were from influenced 96 00:09:42,730 --> 00:09:46,720 your own feelings about the subject because you weren't around as many people studying it, 97 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:51,100 although I know you've all mentioned great teachers and other influences on you. 98 00:09:51,100 --> 00:09:55,210 Did that form an additional kind of barrier to the subject? 99 00:09:55,210 --> 00:09:57,270 In some ways, yeah, I think I think that's right. 100 00:09:57,270 --> 00:10:06,610 That if you if you if you don't belong to an area where that's kind of well, let's be honest, it's not mainstream anywhere anymore, 101 00:10:06,610 --> 00:10:14,800 but in where it's sort of more common, I think that that can I, you know, make you feel that like you're super square. 102 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:20,020 no mates person, at risk of being that. 103 00:10:20,020 --> 00:10:25,300 But conversely, and this might be worth going off piste, so stop me. 104 00:10:25,300 --> 00:10:25,940 It's taught me about this. 105 00:10:25,940 --> 00:10:36,000 But personally, I think that having grown up in the countryside gives me a real kind of a sort of affinity with an awful lot of classical texts. 106 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:42,910 So I've ended up writing about Virgil's Georgics and I'm not I'm not a farmer and neither was he come to that. 107 00:10:42,910 --> 00:10:49,540 But, you know, there's a sense in which that that kind of sense of like not being embarrassed about talking about countryside, 108 00:10:49,540 --> 00:10:57,190 not having to say, oh, well, it's all about poetry, about poetry was a kind of political allegory or something that actually say no. 109 00:10:57,190 --> 00:11:02,530 I mean, there's this joy in the rural life, which, again, 110 00:11:02,530 --> 00:11:10,660 I'm not trying to say to say that most often in the nineteen eighties or something like Italy know whatever the fifties B.C, 111 00:11:10,660 --> 00:11:15,940 but so got the dates wrong. But anyway. But it's yeah. 112 00:11:15,940 --> 00:11:26,860 I do think that actually you know, one can be very positive about what coming from a non urban non SES background can, can bring to classics. 113 00:11:26,860 --> 00:11:34,720 Yeah. I mean I guess that kind of building on from that because we're kind of slightly from outside the traditional bubble of where classicists tend to 114 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:42,460 come from because we're a little bit more communities don't necessarily get as represented as much or where there's not as much of outreach. 115 00:11:42,460 --> 00:11:45,370 But does give us that kind of perspective that, yeah, 116 00:11:45,370 --> 00:11:51,480 what writers like Virgil did have where you kind of the country kid that comes in and sees this culture and sort of falls in love with it, 117 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:58,270 but also has this kind of perspective of slightly from outside. I see differently. And that kind of feeds into something I think classics generally does, 118 00:11:58,270 --> 00:12:03,250 which is it just makes you to take a little step back and view what's around even more objectively, 119 00:12:03,250 --> 00:12:07,150 just through the lens of, you know, how do we look at another culture then? How does that help us look at our own? 120 00:12:07,150 --> 00:12:15,580 All right. Yeah, I think I mean, obviously, my situation back then would be different for people coming from the same area. 121 00:12:15,580 --> 00:12:23,830 Now, I think purely just because of the AS system and allowing people to take a chance on a subject they might not have otherwise taking a chance on. 122 00:12:23,830 --> 00:12:32,890 And so I think because that has been sort of taken away with this new A level system, I think it people need to be more aware of classics as a subject, 123 00:12:32,890 --> 00:12:37,600 because until I was choosing my A-levels, I didn't know about it as being a subject. 124 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:45,490 I knew I liked the Percy Jackson books. I knew that I enjoyed looking around Rome, but I didn't I didn't know about it as a subject. 125 00:12:45,490 --> 00:12:51,280 And even now, like when I talk to people from around here and I said I studied classics like often 126 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:56,500 they would take that to mean classic literature like Jane Austen or like Shakespeare, 127 00:12:56,500 --> 00:13:01,330 I think because I was always associated with English they thought that was what I was studying. 128 00:13:01,330 --> 00:13:07,330 And so I had to explain, you know what I say. I study classics, which is the study of the ancient Mediterranean. 129 00:13:07,330 --> 00:13:14,560 So I think having to talk through that each time meant that I always felt a little bit like separate from my Decon 130 00:13:14,560 --> 00:13:20,050 life that I felt my Devon life and my Oxford classics life like never really connected in that way, 131 00:13:20,050 --> 00:13:27,910 but there were instances when they did. So one of my favourite pieces of work is Dart by Alice Oswald. 132 00:13:27,910 --> 00:13:31,480 So I study English and Classics and there was a lot of classical reception involved in my degree. 133 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:38,410 And as part of that, I looked at Dart, which is about the River dart, which obviously flows through dartmoor 134 00:13:38,410 --> 00:13:43,240 and she uses a lot of sort of classical voices and classical reception and 135 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:52,210 And that's why I felt like a real crossover. And then when I was like translating Eclogues for Latin core, I think it was, you know, 136 00:13:52,210 --> 00:14:00,910 going through all the different names of different trees and things, I was like, why do I feel at home suddenly with the Eclogues? 137 00:14:00,910 --> 00:14:05,560 So I think there are kind of various to the classics in this area. 138 00:14:05,560 --> 00:14:14,410 I think particularly the not having the system and not being taught earlier than A-levels very often, particularly in state schools. 139 00:14:14,410 --> 00:14:22,600 I think that is a barrier. But I also think then when I am able to connect this little rural Devon background with the classics, 140 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:31,610 that's why I felt most engaged with it and most able to really connect both halves of my life in that way. 141 00:14:31,610 --> 00:14:34,880 Now, that's super interesting geographical background, I think, 142 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:40,790 has influenced all of you and your various academic interests and that affinity with classics, 143 00:14:40,790 --> 00:14:47,630 you raise also a great point Molly about the name classics and about what it means to different people and how people interpret that. 144 00:14:47,630 --> 00:14:53,420 And sometimes it influences their view of our subject. And also what we do as classicists. 145 00:14:53,420 --> 00:14:59,270 It's a big topic, but what are people's thoughts on the name of classics, the rebranding, 146 00:14:59,270 --> 00:15:08,030 and how we can try and make it more accessible even to those students who, as we've said, sadly, aren't necessarily able to study it at school? 147 00:15:08,030 --> 00:15:13,760 I mean, I don't mind like jumping in here. I think I mean, obviously the classics has its own. 148 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:19,040 as a subject, it has its own history, its own legacies and its own problems. 149 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:24,020 I think immediately that when you determine something as being classic, 150 00:15:24,020 --> 00:15:30,200 I think often people assume that it's just Greek and Roman languages and literature because that's where it originated back in the 151 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:38,060 Eighteen hundreds. Nineteen hundred. But the classics, as we know today, particularly the Oxford course, has broadened it so much beyond that. 152 00:15:38,060 --> 00:15:43,340 And there are so many different areas now to look at. I think it's become a lot broader, 153 00:15:43,340 --> 00:15:48,950 but I think perhaps there needs to be sort of more done to bring an awareness of 154 00:15:48,950 --> 00:15:54,530 just what classics actually is now and less of a connection with particularly, 155 00:15:54,530 --> 00:16:01,160 I think I mean, I know that the languages are very important and I very much appreciated the chance to learn them, both of them at Oxford. 156 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:06,470 But I think that can be quite intimidating when that's the forefront of what we know as classics, 157 00:16:06,470 --> 00:16:10,580 particularly if you're coming from an area that doesn't ever often offer Latin and Greek. 158 00:16:10,580 --> 00:16:17,960 I didn't have Latin or Greek offered at a level at all. It wasn't listed, there were barely enough people doing French. 159 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:25,280 And so I think like, yeah, I think that can be a bit intimidating. And it certainly was for me when I first started at Oxford, 160 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:34,430 I was a bit intimidated at first with the idea of learning so much language when I'm with other people who had been doing it for quite a long time. 161 00:16:34,430 --> 00:16:43,040 And so I think, yeah, just really opening people's eyes to what classics is and how much there is encompassing within that, 162 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:49,400 rather than being focussed on a very small minority of classics, which is Greek and Latin languages and literature. 163 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:55,760 And I actually found that quite interesting, that my master's was specifically called Greek and or Latin languages and literature. 164 00:16:55,760 --> 00:17:00,590 But I could never really say to people I did a masters in classics because that just wasn't what it is, 165 00:17:00,590 --> 00:17:06,850 because it was a lot more specific than what we now consider classics to be when that in fact was the origins of classics. 166 00:17:06,850 --> 00:17:13,100 So I think, yeah, just making people aware of how broad it is and how much more there is going on under the surface. 167 00:17:13,100 --> 00:17:19,130 So I guess one of the great strengths of classics is that is just so, at least as it's taught now, incredibly diverse. 168 00:17:19,130 --> 00:17:30,050 I mean, you could do everything from, you know, gender studies through to archaeology and from linguistics through to the study of poetry and oratory. 169 00:17:30,050 --> 00:17:34,580 And I guess you could come up with something like ancient world studies or something. 170 00:17:34,580 --> 00:17:40,020 But even so, I guess this whole. 171 00:17:40,020 --> 00:17:43,230 Subject is something that is, in a sense a little bit arbitrary, 172 00:17:43,230 --> 00:17:50,580 like we have this period that we use as a springboard to talk about things like pertaining to humanity in general and bringing in sort of parallels, 173 00:17:50,580 --> 00:17:55,590 especially in the joint schools like classics in Oriental Studies, for example, has a really rich degree. 174 00:17:55,590 --> 00:18:00,300 But Classics is probably a little bit more helpful than the Oxford title Literae Humaniores 175 00:18:00,300 --> 00:18:05,850 But again, that is the kind of thing that it doesn't quite do what it says on the tin. 176 00:18:05,850 --> 00:18:11,330 You need to sort of spend a few sentences unpacking it once you tell anyone what degree the title is. 177 00:18:11,330 --> 00:18:15,330 I'm not sure if that much more to add on that in the sense. 178 00:18:15,330 --> 00:18:19,110 I mean, I think certainly I can I mean, 179 00:18:19,110 --> 00:18:27,690 I see a lot a lot in the students that I teach of a lot of people who are always assuming that somebody else knows more than they do. 180 00:18:27,690 --> 00:18:36,690 And and I think that that know, for people who arrive at university and begin studying one of the ancient languages, 181 00:18:36,690 --> 00:18:39,390 you can see why they might they might feel that way, 182 00:18:39,390 --> 00:18:47,640 because there will be some people who have already done the A Level, for instance, and a smaller number who have done A-levels in Latin and Greek. 183 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:55,470 And I suppose what I would like to emphasise here is, is that I think that that that is taken into into account. 184 00:18:55,470 --> 00:19:01,110 And I think that, you know, the support that's given is a very positive thing. 185 00:19:01,110 --> 00:19:11,730 And I'm sure it doesn't work 100 percent of the time. But very, very largely, people have started out feeling perhaps at a slight disadvantage, 186 00:19:11,730 --> 00:19:24,240 actually come up very quickly to to a level where where they are very comfortable working with the texts in the ancient languages. 187 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:33,840 So while absolutely I'm all for and I think we definitely should emphasise the the breadth and variety and diversity of the course, 188 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:38,130 which which is absolutely true and of the subject more more widely, 189 00:19:38,130 --> 00:19:45,960 I was kind of surprised because this is my thing as a, as a Latinist, that I'll really put put in a word for this, 190 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:53,730 that, you know, that the value of studying things in the languages in which they were they were written. 191 00:19:53,730 --> 00:19:57,750 It's not the only way in which they're studied, but it's it's you know, 192 00:19:57,750 --> 00:20:05,550 it's a really fascinating gateway and kind of learning about what sorts of things about how much 193 00:20:05,550 --> 00:20:13,410 culture is contained within language and how this sort of idea of what does such and such a word mean. 194 00:20:13,410 --> 00:20:17,910 And you suddenly discover that there isn't a one on one correspondence at all. 195 00:20:17,910 --> 00:20:24,330 And in different contexts, you know, this word can mean different things and it rather depends who's writing when they're writing 196 00:20:24,330 --> 00:20:29,810 and all these other kind of complexities which which emerge from studying in language. 197 00:20:29,810 --> 00:20:37,860 in the original language as well as also making use of translations into English is one of the really valuable things. 198 00:20:37,860 --> 00:20:41,670 I think, regardless of whether you've studied these languages before or not, 199 00:20:41,670 --> 00:20:49,380 when you get to it at university level there's a whole new way of approaching things that can open out to you. 200 00:20:49,380 --> 00:20:56,160 And how, Justin and Molly, how have your experiences with language been influenced by the fact that you have done joint honours degrees, 201 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:03,780 that you've both done English and German alongside classics, despite not necessarily having the classical languages beforehand? 202 00:21:03,780 --> 00:21:06,630 How have you found those combinations? 203 00:21:06,630 --> 00:21:13,890 So as I touched on before, I'm really lucky to come from a school that really gets people having contact with language learning. 204 00:21:13,890 --> 00:21:21,240 So everyone at Kingsmead does at least one GCSE in French, German or Spanish, which although they're not like classical languages, 205 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:26,160 they're still languages like there was like a gateway towards carrying elements 206 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,910 of developing that bit of your mind if you want to chase things that way. 207 00:21:29,910 --> 00:21:40,710 So although I hadn't done classical languages here, so before coming here, I actually found it was kind of something I could adapt to quite readily. 208 00:21:40,710 --> 00:21:46,830 And I think something that we haven't quite emphasised enough yet is that Oxford 209 00:21:46,830 --> 00:21:50,790 actually does have really good provision for people who come here without languages. 210 00:21:50,790 --> 00:21:56,550 There's course 2, to which anyone who's done classical languages before has their own version of the course. 211 00:21:56,550 --> 00:22:05,790 But there are specific examples of specific sort of papers and expectations for people who have not got the languages already. 212 00:22:05,790 --> 00:22:09,240 So, you know, when I came to see my first wave of exams, 213 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:16,410 I had like papers that were designed for people who had just literally started Latin in the year before, 214 00:22:16,410 --> 00:22:23,760 which was which is good, says it's like it's a it's a completely valid and dignified space and it's actually loaded with a bit of clout to boost your marks if you do well 215 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,840 relative to what you turn up with, 216 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:34,150 it's not just how good is your Latin at this point, but yeah, it's absolutely, really loved it. 217 00:22:34,150 --> 00:22:39,930 I mean, I'm a bit of languages person anyway. I do way too many languages, about six. 218 00:22:39,930 --> 00:22:49,680 Loving it, but, yeah, so you start off, you set up you have one class every morning with a regular group of people who are also learning. 219 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,710 And what actually does is it really quite a bit of community, within Course II 220 00:22:52,710 --> 00:23:00,270 to which I really like so pretty much all of us from state school backgrounds. 221 00:23:00,270 --> 00:23:01,170 There's a little bit of overlap. 222 00:23:01,170 --> 00:23:10,350 So I've got one friend who's wonderful, he basically taught himself Greek and Latin and course one that that's that's what a magnificent exception. 223 00:23:10,350 --> 00:23:15,780 But that's an exception. Most of us from state backgrounds will still be together, 224 00:23:15,780 --> 00:23:20,610 but we'll be in the same rooms and same classes with the same teachers and a really great sense of sub community. 225 00:23:20,610 --> 00:23:25,320 And then there's the pages that link different years together. 226 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:32,610 So one thing I've actually found is that having this sort of it's not even a subculture, but it's something that's kind of new. 227 00:23:32,610 --> 00:23:38,730 course ii, the state classics kind of group, is really good. 228 00:23:38,730 --> 00:23:42,300 It's really affirming. It's really dynamic. And again, it's really diverse. I've got a lot in common. 229 00:23:42,300 --> 00:23:50,070 But also there's people who are really into sort of looking at sort of societies and how we think about ourselves as some people who just really, 230 00:23:50,070 --> 00:23:57,930 really like concrete! And there's people like me who just want to come and do a bit of everything and find the most ridiculous links. 231 00:23:57,930 --> 00:24:04,170 Being a joint honours student - Classics and Germany is fantastic because with joint honours you're 232 00:24:04,170 --> 00:24:10,090 trying not to drop all the plates you got spending at once, but generally it's a really sort of rich and enriching thing. 233 00:24:10,090 --> 00:24:15,580 And you can pretty much always bring something new to the table as well in terms of discussions, because you have insights from another subject. 234 00:24:15,580 --> 00:24:19,350 But yeah, control of language really enriching here. 235 00:24:19,350 --> 00:24:27,630 And yeah, as Rebecca was saying, there is no better way to put yourself into the mindset of a culture you're studying 236 00:24:27,630 --> 00:24:33,630 than by looking at the way that they use words and think about language and writing, 237 00:24:33,630 --> 00:24:40,000 how they sort of identified themselves with these labels, how these labels change and are appropriated and received across time. 238 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:47,970 How we use terms in our own language is absolutely fantastic. 239 00:24:47,970 --> 00:24:55,000 Yeah. So I've always said that classics and English course II is the best degree Oxford and I still stand by that. 240 00:24:55,000 --> 00:25:02,880 I think it takes like all the best elements from classics, all the best elements from English and just combines them so well. 241 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:10,620 One thing I really appreciated about the structure, of course, to classics, English, especially with so we were we didn't do mods 242 00:25:10,620 --> 00:25:15,630 We did prelims, but like we did always two sets of exams. 243 00:25:15,630 --> 00:25:19,550 But the first one was more like just like entrance exams into the rest of the course. 244 00:25:19,550 --> 00:25:24,960 So the way to think that, well, I have a couple those too. 245 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:31,770 I mean, you have a preliminary year where you almost exclusively focus on learning whichever language you've chosen to do. 246 00:25:31,770 --> 00:25:36,240 Some colleges will have bits and pieces of English and perhaps some classics essays here and there. 247 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:41,850 But generally your focus is on the language and then you have exams at the end of your first year where you kind of 248 00:25:41,850 --> 00:25:47,940 pass them and then you can start the full Classics and English course one having done that year first. 249 00:25:47,940 --> 00:25:53,760 And I really like that because and then I had that year to just fall in love with Latin and really 250 00:25:53,760 --> 00:26:00,960 I was amazed by how quickly I was able to go from nothing basically to to actually translate the Aeneid. 251 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:08,730 And every time I start to translate things that were more complicated, I just got so excited and I just, yeah. 252 00:26:08,730 --> 00:26:17,160 Really fell in love with the intricacies of the language. And I always had to know why something was the way it was, so in reading classes. 253 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:23,850 I would always be the person stopping like. But why is this an ablative? Like what was it doing, what, ablative is this?! 254 00:26:23,850 --> 00:26:29,490 And I'm trying to figure out and really piece together the sentence and what was going on. 255 00:26:29,490 --> 00:26:35,340 And I yeah, I really I really love that. And I think that's the that I personally really enjoyed spending that year 256 00:26:35,340 --> 00:26:40,860 focussing almost entirely on the language and then going through the rest of it. 257 00:26:40,860 --> 00:26:47,640 I didn't do Greek until my master's, but you can do it as part of your undergrad for Classics and English. 258 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:54,300 You can do it as one of your final options. And one of my friends did do that. And so, yeah, even though it's the joint honours degree, 259 00:26:54,300 --> 00:27:02,850 you're still given the same language training and you're still given the opportunity to do both Greek and Latin at various points, 260 00:27:02,850 --> 00:27:08,250 particularly for course II. And so I really appreciated the opportunities that gave me. 261 00:27:08,250 --> 00:27:11,700 And actually one of our papers in our finals, the epic paper, 262 00:27:11,700 --> 00:27:20,310 a part of that was comparing an original passage from the Aeneid with a translation of it. 263 00:27:20,310 --> 00:27:26,280 And normally it was Dryden's translation. And he does such wild things with translation. 264 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:34,500 And you basically write a mini commentary of how he's translated it and what choices he's made and and how how that's come across. 265 00:27:34,500 --> 00:27:40,860 And that really made me appreciate what a sort of skill. 266 00:27:40,860 --> 00:27:48,230 And how much decision making really does go into translation and from then on, I've just really enjoyed looking at different translations and really, 267 00:27:48,230 --> 00:27:52,430 you know, feeling out exactly why they've made certain choices and certain things like that. 268 00:27:52,430 --> 00:27:55,370 And it formed a part of my master's dissertation as well. 269 00:27:55,370 --> 00:28:03,350 So considering that I didn't do any lessons beforehand, I didn't go to any of the summer schools, mainly because I couldn't afford them. 270 00:28:03,350 --> 00:28:06,680 I didn't do any Latin at A level or school or anything. 271 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:12,950 And and to go from that to where I was at the end of my master's, it really did feel like an achievement. 272 00:28:12,950 --> 00:28:18,080 And I know that I wouldn't have got anywhere else except at Oxford on the classics course. 273 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,770 So I do think Oxford Classics and English. I love it. I still love it. 274 00:28:21,770 --> 00:28:25,190 I still promote it all the time as being such a wonderful degree, 275 00:28:25,190 --> 00:28:30,970 particularly at Oxford because I think it's just so well out and the options and the things you can look at just really exciting. 276 00:28:30,970 --> 00:28:37,370 you know, so wonderful to hear, and especially after having left for more than a year to still have that same passion, 277 00:28:37,370 --> 00:28:41,450 not just be a subject, but for that particular course. Indeed, it's infectious. 278 00:28:41,450 --> 00:28:44,250 I could feel the joy from here. Rebecca, 279 00:28:44,250 --> 00:28:51,890 I'd be interested to hear as well about your experience of Oxford is obviously as a tutor and as someone who therefore interacts both with students, 280 00:28:51,890 --> 00:29:02,000 but also does your own research. What have been some of your favourite aspects of that combination of your current classics experience? 281 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:11,930 Well, one one thing that was quite satisfying, having mentioned earlier, my interest in Virgil and the Georgics, 282 00:29:11,930 --> 00:29:18,350 after it took me a long time for various reasons, including having babies. 283 00:29:18,350 --> 00:29:26,420 But I finally finished a couple of years ago. The book I've been working on for a long time about plants in Virgil, 284 00:29:26,420 --> 00:29:33,920 and I think it is kind of serendipitous in some ways that I didn't finish it earlier than I did, 285 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:38,150 even though in other ways it's quite, quite frustrated not not to have got along with it, 286 00:29:38,150 --> 00:29:46,070 because I think one of the one of the things that's happening now with with with a lot of the students 287 00:29:46,070 --> 00:29:54,290 coming up and is that there's much greater interest in environmentalism and the environment more broadly. 288 00:29:54,290 --> 00:30:01,700 And whereas in the past, sometimes when I kind of perhaps I wish I taught Molly the Eclogues rather than perhaps some of 289 00:30:01,700 --> 00:30:06,860 my other students look at me blankly when I try to talk about can you visualise a beech tree? 290 00:30:06,860 --> 00:30:16,640 And, you know, but I think now there really is much more of that kind of growing sense of interest in and all that sort of thing. 291 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:26,330 And, yeah, kind of real enthusiasm for exploring ways in which I mean, 292 00:30:26,330 --> 00:30:31,400 just going back to one of the things that Justin said, struck me about the ways in which what kind of current interest concerns, 293 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:40,850 fears can in some ways be mapped on and reflected in readings of the ancient world. 294 00:30:40,850 --> 00:30:49,010 So that's a sort of quite a specific thing. But I think more generally, I mean, I definitely, as a tutor, 295 00:30:49,010 --> 00:30:57,240 kind of really enjoy the the sort of differences between my students and the way in which, 296 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:01,490 you know, you get you get really different views from different people. 297 00:31:01,490 --> 00:31:06,560 And, you know, you might you might have somebody from, if you like, 298 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:12,290 the kind of background where the really stereotypical I don't they've been to Eton or something like that. 299 00:31:12,290 --> 00:31:17,750 But they in a room with six other people who have definitely not been to Eton. 300 00:31:17,750 --> 00:31:25,280 And just this sort of sense of that kind of interaction and the growing realisation 301 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:30,980 you get amongst everyone about the differences between between them and the differences, 302 00:31:30,980 --> 00:31:39,830 therefore their assumptions and their attitudes to the subject, but also in these kind of real sense of actually things level out a lot. 303 00:31:39,830 --> 00:31:45,650 And this is just really interesting to see that the sort of dynamics emerging 304 00:31:45,650 --> 00:31:50,540 between people and the way that way that some people sort of instantly, 305 00:31:50,540 --> 00:31:56,390 much more ready to take, I don't know, say a kind of political view on things. 306 00:31:56,390 --> 00:32:05,330 And others are kind of interested in artistic representations, all these things can kind of come in in together. 307 00:32:05,330 --> 00:32:14,750 And that kind of sense of sort a melting pot feeling that goes on in classes is is 308 00:32:14,750 --> 00:32:20,810 really nice when you want to kind of take a break from telling people why it's in the Ablative. 309 00:32:20,810 --> 00:32:23,360 Well, I wish we had a class together to talk about plants, 310 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:30,980 because that was one thing that when I was trying to learn Latin and I just loved looking in the dictionary looking for different plant words. 311 00:32:30,980 --> 00:32:39,020 And when I was lucky enough to go to Pompeii seeing an actual buxus, this or a strawberry tree or a box hedge, I was extremely excited. 312 00:32:39,020 --> 00:32:44,360 No one else was. But I thought that that was very cool. So that's great to hear. 313 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:52,310 I think we've all mentioned parts of how of what classics means to us and also what it means to people at the moment. 314 00:32:52,310 --> 00:32:57,200 But can we talk a bit more about about the very current relevance of the subject, 315 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,890 which we've already said is so broad and encompasses so many different things? 316 00:33:00,890 --> 00:33:06,570 But to those people that ask and I'm sure we've all had the question from people in our lives, you know, why bother? 317 00:33:06,570 --> 00:33:10,280 Why should we study classics? What would you say? 318 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:15,320 Why? Why is it relevant? Well, it's like number one, it's brilliant. 319 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:22,490 It's absolutely worth and validating in itself because it will take on this madcap journey through all times, 320 00:33:22,490 --> 00:33:26,780 all places from even the basic course of Mods takes you even studying like the cultural attitudes 321 00:33:26,780 --> 00:33:32,600 of 6th century B.C. Persia through to the sort of art of third century North Africa. 322 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,170 And you have all these charismatic and dynamic, brilliant, 323 00:33:36,170 --> 00:33:42,170 utterly awful people that you sort of step into their shoes and try to see the world from their perspective. 324 00:33:42,170 --> 00:33:46,910 And you go headlong tackling some of the biggest questions of human existence 325 00:33:46,910 --> 00:33:50,900 and addressing the big questions that we have at the moment as a society and 326 00:33:50,900 --> 00:33:54,290 how we can inform our understanding of ourselves and our situation and our 327 00:33:54,290 --> 00:33:57,650 background through the ancient world and how through the ancient world is being received, 328 00:33:57,650 --> 00:34:04,520 which is another part of classics that doesn't get that popularised and so on one level, it's just fantastic. 329 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:13,880 And if you find this kind of thing even remotely interesting as an idea, I would really, really recommend chasing it up, seeing what it can offer you, 330 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:22,970 whether you're a fan of cool pots or agricultural settlement organisation or poetics or whatever, actually classics is really, really employable. 331 00:34:22,970 --> 00:34:25,610 It teaches you yeah, cool stuff about the ancient world 332 00:34:25,610 --> 00:34:32,210 But what it really teaches you is things like the ability to analyse and process the huge amounts of information really quickly and come to reasoned. 333 00:34:32,210 --> 00:34:40,610 Well, argued judgements. It teaches you to interface with complex and contradictory and very nuanced points of view. 334 00:34:40,610 --> 00:34:48,380 It gives you a sense of empathy and an ability to appreciate where other arguments are coming from, 335 00:34:48,380 --> 00:34:52,520 whether that's people you're in the room that you're yet you have subsets of 336 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:57,560 different assumptions and you sort of reach different conclusions to them, whether you're get respect for this course. 337 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:06,590 But also just looking at something that is on first reading Abhorrently awfully like Propertius who just makes me sick to the stomach when I read. 338 00:35:06,590 --> 00:35:14,540 him sometimes. But then if you just try to think, OK, what if I was you know, what if I'd grown up in the world that this person grew up in, 339 00:35:14,540 --> 00:35:19,820 what if I sort of tried to strip away my cultural assumptions? Can I see anything redemptive? 340 00:35:19,820 --> 00:35:21,620 Usually not with Propertius, but, you know, 341 00:35:21,620 --> 00:35:30,350 it's just the exercise of being able to put yourself into another perspective and trying to unbuild your own assumptions or skills, 342 00:35:30,350 --> 00:35:37,010 like just being disciplined, working to schedules. You have a lot of deadlines as a classicist and the ability to crunch through 343 00:35:37,010 --> 00:35:42,500 and learn languages and address all these really diverse types of information. 344 00:35:42,500 --> 00:35:48,110 These are all really, really good employable skills and these are really things that employers do look for. 345 00:35:48,110 --> 00:35:51,890 I was really privileged to work with the Oxford University Classics Society earlier this year, 346 00:35:51,890 --> 00:35:57,560 and we had some people come in from the careers service and talking about basically the fact that, yeah, 347 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:03,620 a degree which actually teaches you directly to do a job is great and valuable in itself is a wonderful thing to do, 348 00:36:03,620 --> 00:36:10,730 but a degree that teaches you a vastly broad skill set and teaches you to communicate convincingly, brilliantly, eloquently. 349 00:36:10,730 --> 00:36:19,820 This is again a really useful skill. You basically learn to process, you learn to present, you learn to argue reason, think through things sideways, 350 00:36:19,820 --> 00:36:25,820 and to wrap this up with a way of sort of communicating and presenting and developing your 351 00:36:25,820 --> 00:36:32,390 ideas through dialogue that actually stands in really good stead for a whole bunch of jobs. 352 00:36:32,390 --> 00:36:39,110 So just thinking about people who are leaving classics right now that I know some of my college fathers are going that year about that sort of like, 353 00:36:39,110 --> 00:36:44,000 you know, sort of like a buddy system ato help the first years along and then we stay mates 354 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,570 Makes some way through. He's going off to work at Goldman Sachs. 355 00:36:47,570 --> 00:36:54,120 I've got some amazing friends that she's going on to, I think commercial law firms, law, finance and all that sort of things. 356 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:59,360 we have a classicist in number ten. We've got. 357 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:07,670 Yeah, I know. I can see the reactions, the audio can't hear and but jobs all over the place, 358 00:37:07,670 --> 00:37:15,110 really diverse employment markets and obviously the skill set to learn the language and interface in other cultures is also fantastic. 359 00:37:15,110 --> 00:37:19,880 If you then want to go into further study and move into different places abroad. 360 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:26,480 So essentially, there is kind of that there is the reason going incredibly way back to the start of this tangent, 361 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:33,200 that simply studying the ancient world is brilliant. And if you want to do it, do it. 362 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,650 You only live once. Why not study something? 363 00:37:36,650 --> 00:37:45,200 That's absolutely fantastic, but. Also, it's really employable, it's really hands on, it's really sensible, it's good, 364 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,170 and really it just gives you the confidence to back yourself and just get out there 365 00:37:48,170 --> 00:37:54,430 and take challenges on and have discussions and learn things and just get on with it. 366 00:37:54,430 --> 00:37:58,440 So that's definitely very much a degree worth doing. Yes. 367 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:09,080 So in terms of like how classics is relevant today, one thing that my dad always likes to jokingly say is, oh, it's all in the past. 368 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:14,390 It doesn't matter because it's all in the past. And he always winds me up whenever he says that, because a lot of my degree, 369 00:38:14,390 --> 00:38:20,040 especially in English, is looking at how classics has been received by later. 370 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:26,600 I think also, especially with the APGRD the archive of performances of Greek and Roman drama. 371 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:34,310 There's a big focus on classical reception, particularly also. That's why I was so excited to do my master's there as well, to pursue that even further. 372 00:38:34,310 --> 00:38:41,540 But classical reception is basically how the classics have been received by the text and on this can be at any point throughout history. 373 00:38:41,540 --> 00:38:47,540 But I always love doing it when it's present day texts like modern modern text. 374 00:38:47,540 --> 00:38:51,770 And if you look hard enough, classics is still everywhere today. 375 00:38:51,770 --> 00:39:01,100 And I love examining how it's been used both for good and bad and how it's still quite present around us today. 376 00:39:01,100 --> 00:39:13,120 So one of my favourite bits of work I did throughout my undergrad as part of my dissertation was reading this book of poetry by Jerry Shap 377 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:17,350 Which was the metamorphosis, I think I think that's what it was called, 378 00:39:17,350 --> 00:39:27,550 but it was a book of poetry and she wrote it after she had been diagnosed with breast cancer and she used Ovid's Metamorphoses to really engage with 379 00:39:27,550 --> 00:39:35,470 her for her thoughts and her feelings about being diagnosed with breast cancer cells mutating and and how she saw the world and things like that. 380 00:39:35,470 --> 00:39:38,860 And it's one of the most beautiful pieces of poetry I've read. 381 00:39:38,860 --> 00:39:39,820 And I loved reading it. 382 00:39:39,820 --> 00:39:48,490 And I think that is a very personal example of how classics can still be used to process the thoughts and feelings and emotions today. 383 00:39:48,490 --> 00:39:59,020 But yeah, the classics everywhere. And that's where I get the most enjoyment out of it is looking at it today in terms of employability. 384 00:39:59,020 --> 00:40:06,050 I did an undergraduate degree and a master's degree in classical subjects at Oxford, and I got a job. 385 00:40:06,050 --> 00:40:13,510 So I currently work for Murray Edwards College in Cambridge in the communications team, 386 00:40:13,510 --> 00:40:23,230 creating content for prospective applicants to help them with the process of applying to Oxford and Cambridge top universities. 387 00:40:23,230 --> 00:40:31,060 And yeah, all the things you were saying just in like I think employers are increasingly recognising how important transferable skills are. 388 00:40:31,060 --> 00:40:34,480 And I think especially when you're younger, there's a lot of talk going around. 389 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,830 It was the same for English, like why do an English degree, why do a history degree? 390 00:40:38,830 --> 00:40:46,300 And I think it might be sort of tempting to do a subject where there's a very obvious job at the end. 391 00:40:46,300 --> 00:40:51,250 But like you said, even people doing classics will go on to stuff like law. 392 00:40:51,250 --> 00:40:53,680 So you don't necessarily have to do law to become a lawyer. 393 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:59,630 I know lots and lots of people who've gone on to become lawyers after doing classics that so many different jobs. 394 00:40:59,630 --> 00:41:08,020 transferable skills - people do definitely recognise them, particularly with a college degree and particularly for somewhere like Oxford. 395 00:41:08,020 --> 00:41:13,030 People recognise the amount of work that goes into that, the amount of detail that you have to process. 396 00:41:13,030 --> 00:41:19,210 For me as a communications team, I was able to use a lot of the work I've done, 397 00:41:19,210 --> 00:41:24,850 particularly presenting because there were a lot of opportunities to present my work 398 00:41:24,850 --> 00:41:29,050 throughout my undergrad on my master's actually talking through these things, 399 00:41:29,050 --> 00:41:30,970 which for a lot of people, if you're presenting, 400 00:41:30,970 --> 00:41:36,790 particularly for an audience that may not be overly familiar with classics or may even be classicists 401 00:41:36,790 --> 00:41:41,470 but they might not be familiar with what you're doing. That was often the case for me in classical reception. 402 00:41:41,470 --> 00:41:46,990 If I ever presented what I was working on to people who might be working on something within classics completely different, 403 00:41:46,990 --> 00:41:50,350 you have to make it understandable, approachable, things like that. 404 00:41:50,350 --> 00:41:59,200 And so for me, working in a communications role, a lot of that carried over from classics and also with the languages really breaking down a sentence, 405 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:05,950 how a sentence can be translated, how things can be interpreted, how to do prose comp. 406 00:42:05,950 --> 00:42:11,380 That helped me kind of think about how to word my sentences, how to create my own languages. 407 00:42:11,380 --> 00:42:15,130 So am I like like pieces of text, I should say. 408 00:42:15,130 --> 00:42:17,900 And yeah. So I found a lot of the skills, 409 00:42:17,900 --> 00:42:25,780 like going from my time at Oxford both undergrad and post grad to have transferred over into the sphere that I want to go into, 410 00:42:25,780 --> 00:42:29,590 which is like communications in particular with higher education. 411 00:42:29,590 --> 00:42:35,950 But there are so many different career paths, particularly for classicists, that it's just unbelievably broad. 412 00:42:35,950 --> 00:42:41,740 So I think I as I sort of get further away from my time as a student, I know it's only been like a year. 413 00:42:41,740 --> 00:42:45,250 But, you know, as I move further away from the student realm, 414 00:42:45,250 --> 00:42:49,790 I'm starting to really appreciate the value in doing a degree that you really enjoy and that you 415 00:42:49,790 --> 00:42:55,880 really found value in for itself because there are so many transferable skills that come from that. 416 00:42:55,880 --> 00:43:00,850 And so I was worried at first when I was choosing to apply to university, 417 00:43:00,850 --> 00:43:05,020 I'm going to be doing classics and English, which are two subjects that people long said are unemployable. 418 00:43:05,020 --> 00:43:12,520 Basically, I'm really worried about this, what should I be doing? But the more I sort of move more into the of job realm, 419 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:18,670 I realise actually I'm really glad I spend that time at university doing something that I loved as much as I loved my degree. 420 00:43:18,670 --> 00:43:26,770 Again, best degree Oxford still say it! And so I really appreciate having that time doing something that I really enjoyed and and picking 421 00:43:26,770 --> 00:43:32,620 up all these different skills which have helped me in in the job that I currently have a job. 422 00:43:32,620 --> 00:43:42,250 So I will have in the future, I guess, as the one who entered the vortex and has not yet left classics, I'm a slight outlier here 423 00:43:42,250 --> 00:43:51,250 But I certainly endorse everything that's been said about that sense of studying classics. 424 00:43:51,250 --> 00:43:56,410 Certainly doesn't shut doors. It gives you a whole range of doors to look at. 425 00:43:56,410 --> 00:44:08,950 And if you choose not to open them, end up doing graduate work and getting temporary jobs and then eventually getting permanent jobs in classical academia, 426 00:44:08,950 --> 00:44:18,880 that's there's not many of us who end up doing this. Relieved to know that's also a possibility and unsurprisingly, therefore, 427 00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:33,850 it also very much kind of agreed with both Molly and Justin and their encouragement to think about what you find interesting. 428 00:44:33,850 --> 00:44:43,000 I think, you know, studying anything is worthwhile if it's what you find interesting and doing something 429 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:48,130 thoroughly and well and working hard at it and succeeding and sometimes failing, 430 00:44:48,130 --> 00:44:56,440 but making progress. All these kinds of things are incredibly valuable in life. 431 00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,020 And this makes me sound old 432 00:44:59,020 --> 00:45:06,520 But that sometimes when there's a lot of this kind of conversation about relevance, what is meant isn't really relevance, 433 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:10,420 because what we've just been talking about is absolutely how classics is relevant and 434 00:45:10,420 --> 00:45:14,080 kind of always has been and always will be and in all sorts of different ways. 435 00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:21,640 What I mean there is is it precisely about something that you could come across on tik tok or whatever it might be nowadays? 436 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:25,060 And and I think that's quite insulting to young people. 437 00:45:25,060 --> 00:45:33,880 I think they're quite well able to be interested in their every day and what they see around them all the 438 00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:40,990 time and also be interested in things that happened two thousand years ago or however long it might be. 439 00:45:40,990 --> 00:45:48,440 You don't you know, you don't have to sort of don the Tteeds and the leather elbow patches in order to study classics. 440 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:58,510 I think it's you know, it's very much a subject that's open to and welcomes all sorts of different attitudes and backgrounds and approaches. 441 00:45:58,510 --> 00:46:02,890 And I hope that's really encouraging for our listeners to hear as well that this is 442 00:46:02,890 --> 00:46:08,440 open and accessible and an inviting subject and an inviting place to come and study. 443 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:09,070 If we can. 444 00:46:09,070 --> 00:46:19,930 Finally, briefly, just think about our listeners who might be listening from North Devon or Cornwall or Dorset or another part of the south west. 445 00:46:19,930 --> 00:46:24,340 And what would you say to them? What would be your one message, 446 00:46:24,340 --> 00:46:30,670 your one takeaway to either your past self or to a prospective student now from 447 00:46:30,670 --> 00:46:35,830 those areas thinking about maybe maybe doing something classical at Oxford? 448 00:46:35,830 --> 00:46:43,720 Well, one of the things that I've heard from people at home that absolutely breaks me is I just don't think Oxford's 449 00:46:43,720 --> 00:46:49,510 the place for me or I don't think classics is for me because it's too posh or it's too sort of otherworldly. 450 00:46:49,510 --> 00:46:53,200 An ivory tower. It is for you. It is exactly for you. 451 00:46:53,200 --> 00:47:01,900 Reach out, grab it. It is brilliant. Classics is what you make it, especially Oxford Classics and Oxford is this thriving, mad, 452 00:47:01,900 --> 00:47:08,380 diverse place that basically if you can just chuck a shedload of enthusiasm at it, you will thrive. 453 00:47:08,380 --> 00:47:13,660 It's about the most buzzing, diverse place I've been in my life. 454 00:47:13,660 --> 00:47:19,300 There are so many sort of subcultures and social microclimates, and just groups everywhere, 455 00:47:19,300 --> 00:47:23,370 these brilliant people that you will find a place that fits you in. 456 00:47:23,370 --> 00:47:28,630 Yeah, I'm really lucky I have a fantastic group of friends all over the place doing all sorts of things. 457 00:47:28,630 --> 00:47:34,390 And I've got involved societies and sports and I've really learnt to come out of my shell, 458 00:47:34,390 --> 00:47:39,530 but also just be more confident in who I am and what I like. I've really grown as a person at Oxford. 459 00:47:39,530 --> 00:47:42,820 It's definitely made me who I am and I'm really, really grateful for that. 460 00:47:42,820 --> 00:47:46,720 And what I would say is just look into it, give it a go, 461 00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:52,060 because there will be something that will definitely be something that you can bring to the table that will be unique. 462 00:47:52,060 --> 00:47:59,680 And there's definitely a huge amount that you can find in the ancient world that can bring things out of you that you wouldn't have even expected. 463 00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:05,410 So I'd say absolutely it is for you. Go for it. I think that's such a big thing to say. 464 00:48:05,410 --> 00:48:11,740 But I think a lot of what I'm going to be saying is that basically repeating what Justin was saying which is if you're thinking about doing classics, 465 00:48:11,740 --> 00:48:21,700 but you think that you come from a background, which is not what you consider classics to normally be, but you're interested in the ancient world. 466 00:48:21,700 --> 00:48:26,890 You're interested in whatever part of it you might have come across so far. There's there's even more to it than that. 467 00:48:26,890 --> 00:48:36,220 There's so much involved in classics. And I think the Oxford Classics faculty has so many amazing people connected to it. 468 00:48:36,220 --> 00:48:42,700 And it's it's been such a pleasure to have studied there for five years in total. 469 00:48:42,700 --> 00:48:45,070 And I think, yeah, there's there are so many. 470 00:48:45,070 --> 00:48:52,840 I think the other thing as well is to research the classics courses themselves, but also look into the joint honours courses. 471 00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,960 I know I'm probably a bit biased again here, 472 00:48:55,960 --> 00:49:04,930 but I think a real highlight of the classics faculty is the the amount that it focuses on the interdisciplinary connections. 473 00:49:04,930 --> 00:49:12,010 And it's not just like half of one degree and half of the other, like they really do make the effort to bring both halves together. 474 00:49:12,010 --> 00:49:16,990 And I think Oxford has a variety of different joint honours courses that if you're thinking, oh, 475 00:49:16,990 --> 00:49:21,070 I really love English, I don't know whether I should be sort of adding this new subject. 476 00:49:21,070 --> 00:49:28,780 You might not have a lot of experience with like that. The I think considering a joint honours course, particularly, of course, at Oxford, 477 00:49:28,780 --> 00:49:35,080 I think they really do allow you to maybe stick with something you're more familiar with and you also love, 478 00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:41,620 but also allow you to jump into classics and all that that has to offer the so many different branches and areas. 479 00:49:41,620 --> 00:49:48,730 And I didn't know any I didn't even know that Percy Jackson technically was classical reception when I first read it in year 8 or9. 480 00:49:48,730 --> 00:49:52,600 But it is. And people have written essays about the classical reception in Percy Jackson. 481 00:49:52,600 --> 00:50:03,610 So I think like those classics all around you and there's so much going on in classics particularly at Oxford that if you want to explore a bit more, 482 00:50:03,610 --> 00:50:11,170 I would highly recommend just looking on the course pages, doing your research and really thinking, actually giving it a go and applying to Oxford. 483 00:50:11,170 --> 00:50:15,310 And I think, again, I just want to say, if I'm talking to my past self, the languages, 484 00:50:15,310 --> 00:50:21,760 while they might be a bit intimidating at first, like before you've started studying them, I think the Oxford course really does. 485 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:30,490 I really appreciate the opportunity to be able to learn them. And it really opens so many doors and really opens up the ancient world in a 486 00:50:30,490 --> 00:50:33,550 way that I didn't really know about when studying classical civilisation. 487 00:50:33,550 --> 00:50:40,690 So don't be intimidated by the languages or be intimidated by what you think Latin might be. 488 00:50:40,690 --> 00:50:47,590 But I would say really give it a shot and look into all the different options there are in the in the Oxford classics, 489 00:50:47,590 --> 00:50:53,440 all the different courses, because that's just so much, so much that Justin like just said, really just give it a go, 490 00:50:53,440 --> 00:51:01,270 take the opportunity and give it a go instead of being prominent advocates for exactly that that sort of sense of please, 491 00:51:01,270 --> 00:51:08,620 please don't feel that it can't possibly be for somebody from the Southwest to come to Oxford and study classics. 492 00:51:08,620 --> 00:51:14,140 as we're living proof that at least it's possible and indeed that it's possible to do it and enjoy it. 493 00:51:14,140 --> 00:51:18,070 On that note, I want to say huge thank you to all three of our panellists, 494 00:51:18,070 --> 00:51:22,600 for a fantastic exploration of their journey and everything that Classics has meant to them. 495 00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:30,850 So far, so a huge Thank you, Justin, Molly and Rebecca for a fantastic discussion and conversation on this Regional Classics podcast. 496 00:51:30,850 --> 00:51:33,461 Oh, thank you so much. Thank you.