1 00:00:00,090 --> 00:00:03,850 Hello and welcome to another episode of the Migration Oxford Podcast. 2 00:00:03,870 --> 00:00:10,470 I'm Rob McNeil. And I'm Jackie Broadhead. So, Jackie, today we're talking about artifice and migration. 3 00:00:10,590 --> 00:00:19,420 And so my understanding of what that means is we're talking about the intersection really between arts and activism in migration. 4 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:26,880 Now this is the migration entrepot because it's about the academy, it's about research and work of researchers and academics. 5 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:32,070 Is art and activism really what we're supposed to be doing? 6 00:00:32,490 --> 00:00:38,820 Thanks, Rob. I guess one of the things that academics are encouraged to do is this magical word called impact. 7 00:00:39,180 --> 00:00:45,089 So how do we make sure that our research is impactful and translates through to the real world, 8 00:00:45,090 --> 00:00:54,470 doesn't get stuck just in kind of dusty academic journals not being particularly read and using the arts, using different mediums. 9 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:59,130 We're using things like podcasts, right? One of the ways that academics, I think, look to do that. 10 00:00:59,670 --> 00:01:02,750 I think what's interesting in this area is this idea of activism. 11 00:01:02,790 --> 00:01:09,899 So where is that an appropriate role for an academic to be engaged in specific kind of activism, 12 00:01:09,900 --> 00:01:13,650 for certain policy goals and certain things we want to change? 13 00:01:14,190 --> 00:01:18,260 We did a seminar series here at Compass a few years back looking at impact. 14 00:01:18,270 --> 00:01:24,179 And one of the things that really stuck with me was that it's important for researchers to be really clear when 15 00:01:24,180 --> 00:01:30,210 they're drawing directly on the work of their research and when they're kind of explaining their opinions. 16 00:01:30,540 --> 00:01:35,609 And so having that very kind of clear delineation between the two, but secondly, 17 00:01:35,610 --> 00:01:42,390 that for some academics and for some research, activism does become really important as part of their practice. 18 00:01:42,630 --> 00:01:45,420 It's something that they that they really want to be involved in. 19 00:01:45,420 --> 00:01:52,139 They want to be able to influence policy debates and that it's important to recognise the kind of trade offs between that. 20 00:01:52,140 --> 00:01:58,110 So there are going to be some spaces if you're operating in a more activist way that you're going to have 21 00:01:58,110 --> 00:02:04,260 less influence in than if you're choosing to stick very narrowly to what the findings of your research say. 22 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:14,430 And I think it's something that all kind of researchers and academics spend time working on what their own kind of outlook is going to be. 23 00:02:14,580 --> 00:02:16,229 But I think it's really crucial, actually, 24 00:02:16,230 --> 00:02:23,040 that we step out of the confines solely of research for those people that want to and to think about what their impact is going to be. 25 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:28,770 And as part of that, using the arts as a way of telling stories feels to me really important. 26 00:02:29,370 --> 00:02:36,600 Once you start stepping into a place of activism, does that not affect your authority as an academic? 27 00:02:37,050 --> 00:02:38,459 I think that's certainly a risk. 28 00:02:38,460 --> 00:02:46,590 You know, we see it and the sense that if you're putting your thumb on the scale of an outcome, you know that you want, that's part of your activism. 29 00:02:46,590 --> 00:02:52,260 Whether that's going to compromise this idea that you are engaging in sort of objective science, 30 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,980 I think we can question some of those concepts for a start, 31 00:02:56,250 --> 00:03:01,110 but it's something that you have to be really aware of because if you do enter into the activist space, 32 00:03:01,290 --> 00:03:07,229 then in some ways it's a can sometimes be a one way street. If you're seen over associated as being in the activist space, 33 00:03:07,230 --> 00:03:14,460 it's going to then be hard to be seen purely as as a voice that isn't putting the thumb on the scale in one direction or another. 34 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:19,020 There's horses for courses, you know, the academy is not is not one. 35 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,980 Different academics take radically different stances on this. 36 00:03:23,310 --> 00:03:29,400 Some academics aren't particularly trying to to have impact outside of the academy that focuses on their research. 37 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:35,250 And I always say, you know, if impact work and knowledge exchange and doing stuff like that doesn't suit you, 38 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:39,959 it is perfectly legitimate to want to be an academic in order to produce knowledge. 39 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:44,100 Share that with your colleagues and kind of advance advance your your goals that way. 40 00:03:44,100 --> 00:03:51,140 But if you do want to, I think taking a kind of reflective practice that allows you to understand how you're going to be seen, 41 00:03:51,180 --> 00:03:55,020 how that influence is going to kind of manifest itself, that feels important. 42 00:03:55,140 --> 00:04:02,430 My view is not that that's one way to do it, and it's something that individual researchers make decisions on in their own practice. 43 00:04:02,970 --> 00:04:04,070 That's really interesting. 44 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:11,340 I'd like to move a little bit, actually on to the question of art and the role of art in understanding the societies that we live in, 45 00:04:11,550 --> 00:04:18,060 in facilitating integration and also being the tools for speaking to people for it, for making. 46 00:04:18,060 --> 00:04:21,810 You've always had one of the things that I was sort of thinking about as, 47 00:04:21,810 --> 00:04:29,850 as I was listening to you speaking to our guests today was something that I've always thought is fundamental to what modern Britain has become, 48 00:04:29,850 --> 00:04:31,469 which is oddly, the band, 49 00:04:31,470 --> 00:04:39,959 the specials and the concept that what they were doing, the creation of the art that they were making was about reimagining Britain, 50 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:47,340 reimagining what this country was, which was completely different to the kind of mainstream ideal of what Britishness was. 51 00:04:47,340 --> 00:04:57,149 At that point in time. It was art that was created by a bunch of British youths of different sort of backgrounds that actually described Britain very, 52 00:04:57,150 --> 00:04:59,940 very differently in the sort of late 1970s and late 1980s. 53 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:07,970 It was a moment of trying to achieve cultural change in the space of migration in various different ways, but fundamentally integration. 54 00:05:08,300 --> 00:05:12,510 And I think it does it does merit academic investigation. 55 00:05:12,510 --> 00:05:17,600 That is an interesting subject to dig into and to think about in the discussion that we have today. 56 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:19,940 I think there are a couple of really interesting aspects. 57 00:05:19,940 --> 00:05:28,759 So the first is this idea of how much are these type of projects that using arts as kind of ways to allow people to kind of 58 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:35,899 process and tell their own stories and a kind of internal way of understanding what's happened and what your own experiences are, 59 00:05:35,900 --> 00:05:41,900 sharing them within your community and to what extent they're about moving beyond that and actually allowing 60 00:05:42,020 --> 00:05:48,410 other people to have empathy and to understand your experience or to have that kind of shared experience. 61 00:05:48,770 --> 00:05:53,569 And some of the examples that we've had, whether it be kind of your music in the specials, 62 00:05:53,570 --> 00:05:58,040 whether it's kind of visual arts, whether it's crafts, whether it's literature, 63 00:05:58,610 --> 00:06:03,379 I think that idea that we can use the arts to think not only about the world as it is, 64 00:06:03,380 --> 00:06:09,770 but the world as it should be, and to kind of imagine new ways of being that to me, feels inspiring and exciting. 65 00:06:09,770 --> 00:06:15,559 And and that's why I'm so looking forward to this discussion. I'm joined by Salma Zulfikar, artist, 66 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:23,060 activist and creator of Art Connects Natalia Federico Art Connects participant and Assistant and Ruth near Bhutto, 67 00:06:23,060 --> 00:06:28,670 near Caravaggio, who works as the academic manager at the refugee led research hub here at the University of Oxford, 68 00:06:28,790 --> 00:06:34,249 with offices both in Oxford and Nairobi. Sam, I'm going to come to you today. 69 00:06:34,250 --> 00:06:40,970 We're talking about activism. Can you explain what you mean by activism when we're thinking about migration? 70 00:06:41,420 --> 00:06:48,319 Thank you for having us. It's great to be with you. For me, through art connects, you know, establishing art connects. 71 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:54,770 It's a bridge between art and activism is to help support migrants and refugees, 72 00:06:55,610 --> 00:07:01,340 to help empower women and girls and vulnerable women who are living on the edge of society. 73 00:07:01,790 --> 00:07:04,940 The work that we do is about changing attitudes. 74 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:13,969 I think activism in migration has has a big role to play in terms of changing attitudes in host communities and 75 00:07:13,970 --> 00:07:20,830 changing those stereotypes and really giving those people who don't often have a chance to have their say. 76 00:07:21,530 --> 00:07:25,370 And it's also about being inclusive, 77 00:07:25,460 --> 00:07:35,330 raising awareness and the importance of diversity in our communities and and also about how it can change people's lives, 78 00:07:35,330 --> 00:07:43,490 giving them support and giving them resources and giving them access to opportunities that they probably won't get. 79 00:07:43,790 --> 00:07:52,370 And racism has increased because of the pandemic as well, like crimes and attacks against the LGBT community have also increased. 80 00:07:53,390 --> 00:08:01,190 So the work is really about addressing all of this and, you know, helping people to improve their wellbeing as well. 81 00:08:02,150 --> 00:08:10,730 Then 90% of the people that we've worked with in our Migration Blankets film project said it helped them improve their wellbeing. 82 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:16,460 It helped them want to think about meeting people from different cultures as well. 83 00:08:16,730 --> 00:08:24,950 Lots of lots of different links between migration and activism to create tolerance and peace in our communities. 84 00:08:25,670 --> 00:08:28,910 Thanks so much, Salma Natalia, for you. 85 00:08:29,210 --> 00:08:37,340 How has participating in art workshops helped you to understand or to tell your story? 86 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:43,490 The workshops help me to release my feelings and to call my stories. 87 00:08:43,670 --> 00:08:59,120 I remember last year we had with Salma some workshops with Ukrainian Refugee and we draw Sky How city without bombs, full family, happy children. 88 00:08:59,750 --> 00:09:14,240 Yeah, and I drove I remember I drove home with this cry with some because I miss my house of my house of missing of my family, my friends. 89 00:09:14,930 --> 00:09:19,850 Yeah. And this picture, it's so what I want. 90 00:09:19,850 --> 00:09:25,520 And also help me think about my future and what I need for the future. 91 00:09:26,180 --> 00:09:29,390 A lot of women comes here with children. 92 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:36,320 Now, children don't have opportunity to study in Ukraine now. 93 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:43,310 Here they have a big opportunity to study at school, to study, to university, university. 94 00:09:43,910 --> 00:09:52,310 It's like story in my life. On the paper, we wanted to say that we qualify. 95 00:09:53,270 --> 00:09:59,810 We need to find good job for leave here and but also. 96 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:09,660 We miss primarily about our country and we worried about country because we all need peace. 97 00:10:10,110 --> 00:10:21,510 And yeah, we did all this on the paper when we had we send like this and workshops. 98 00:10:21,690 --> 00:10:31,050 I visited different galleries with art venues, with art connects and different aspect of UK life. 99 00:10:31,890 --> 00:10:47,970 Also, we had a lot of events with another refugee with Afghanistan, with Iranian Pakistani refugee, and we also speak about our problems. 100 00:10:48,030 --> 00:10:54,720 We grow these problems on paper, we speak about culture. 101 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:59,430 We we have so different culture. 102 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:13,770 But yeah, we all refugee and we try to support each other because we all state not in our country like I in Ukraine. 103 00:11:14,750 --> 00:11:22,790 Thanks so much, Natalia. Ruth, your work at the refugee led research hub focuses on empowerment and leadership for refugees. 104 00:11:22,790 --> 00:11:28,069 And we just heard from Salma about this idea of art as kind of inclusion and participation, 105 00:11:28,070 --> 00:11:32,060 but also as a way of kind of sharing stories and being that kind of persuasive tool. 106 00:11:32,090 --> 00:11:41,570 Do you think that art projects can work within a kind of activism space of developing new stories as well as kind of including people in projects? 107 00:11:41,990 --> 00:11:44,450 Definitely, especially when it comes to research. 108 00:11:44,780 --> 00:11:53,570 Well, the refugee led research hub leads in empowering and enabling students and learners with lived experience of displacement to access research. 109 00:11:53,600 --> 00:12:03,500 I think it does play a place in enabling inclusivity, enabling participatory research, enabling accessibility, 110 00:12:03,830 --> 00:12:10,520 breaking down work which would initially not have been accessible to not only those who are researching, 111 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:15,500 but also those who need to know that information and to just drive this point home. 112 00:12:15,530 --> 00:12:21,260 On the second question you asked, on what difference it makes when it comes to creating new narratives. 113 00:12:21,650 --> 00:12:30,740 I'll point out to my experience back in Nairobi, where I was leading the Nairobi office and we came up with a book club where we got to discuss books 114 00:12:30,740 --> 00:12:36,020 written on forced displacement or books written by individuals with lead experience of displacement. 115 00:12:36,350 --> 00:12:40,129 And one book, for example, which is called Weight of Bus Best Kenyan author, 116 00:12:40,130 --> 00:12:45,380 but looks at a Rwandese experience navigating this space in Kenya after the 94 genocide. 117 00:12:46,010 --> 00:12:49,820 It's amazing how that book, a 40 something page book, 118 00:12:50,030 --> 00:12:57,470 elicited so much memory and so much experiences that majority of those who were in the room wanted to share. 119 00:12:58,010 --> 00:13:07,879 That was a beautiful moment, but also a poignant one. Seeing how the use of literary work can actually enable others to think deeply about the 120 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:12,560 experiences to share stories which would otherwise not have been experienced and felt. 121 00:13:13,460 --> 00:13:16,880 Thanks, Ruth. I just wonder if I could just come back to you. 122 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:23,510 Just something that both you and Salma have said about the importance for people with lived experience. 123 00:13:23,750 --> 00:13:26,900 But Salma also mentioned about this idea of persuasion. 124 00:13:27,590 --> 00:13:36,169 Is there a tension for you between the stories that people tell to have their own story heard versus what Salma was talking about, 125 00:13:36,170 --> 00:13:43,400 which is how you change people's minds, who might have a more negative view, for example, on on migration or on forced displacement. 126 00:13:43,670 --> 00:13:48,320 I think tensions could be also from personal perspective. 127 00:13:48,470 --> 00:13:54,920 First, this is someone who's bearing that story out there and also not just bearing the story for the purpose of burying, 128 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,920 but taking it to an activist perspective. 129 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:03,290 And that can come with a lot of happiness and also a lot of expectations. 130 00:14:03,710 --> 00:14:10,790 So I think it's striking a balance. And this perhaps could go to the question of ethics and also the question of what support 131 00:14:10,790 --> 00:14:15,950 looks like in enabling individuals to share their stories and use this in a persuasive way. 132 00:14:16,580 --> 00:14:21,950 From my experience, I could speak of it from a research perspective, academic research perspective, 133 00:14:21,950 --> 00:14:29,210 having supported a couple of learners to, for example, explore sharing their own stories through writing. 134 00:14:29,780 --> 00:14:34,730 And the difficulty is placing their voice in a way that is academic, 135 00:14:35,300 --> 00:14:42,620 in a way that it doesn't reduce the legitimacy of that paper, and it's not something which is difficult to navigate. 136 00:14:42,650 --> 00:14:44,300 Have I found an answer to it? 137 00:14:44,540 --> 00:14:52,939 I still grapple with it every time we take through some land as a work with an academic writing where they want to bring in their experiences, 138 00:14:52,940 --> 00:14:56,000 but these academic rules on how to do that. 139 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:00,439 So these challenges there. But I'd say, for example, 140 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:11,659 one way in which such tension is addressed is now like a pretty interesting methodology that at best research methods through which it's now like 141 00:15:11,660 --> 00:15:21,980 turning away from the more traditional perspective and individuals can actually come in and draw from such methodology in an academic and allowed way, 142 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:26,660 for lack of a better word. But super keen to hear someone's experience. 143 00:15:27,170 --> 00:15:32,330 Thanks so much, Ruth. And Salma, how do you manage that, that tension within your work? 144 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:38,930 Ruth I totally agree with, again with what you're saying to, you know, especially on the ethics side of things, 145 00:15:39,530 --> 00:15:46,010 you know, having spent time working in the media myself as well and working closely with them now, 146 00:15:46,310 --> 00:16:00,050 it's really important to have accurate and representative reporting on migration because it is so powerful when you read a story and you see an image. 147 00:16:00,740 --> 00:16:08,030 Just like with art, you know, seeing some things picture speaks louder than than words do in many cases. 148 00:16:08,330 --> 00:16:14,300 So it's really important to get that right. I think sometimes the images that. 149 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:24,250 We see again and again and again, you know, probably causing people to think differently in terms of migration. 150 00:16:24,250 --> 00:16:31,360 And, you know, especially with the issue of the boats as well, it may be conjures up ideas about, 151 00:16:32,260 --> 00:16:40,630 you know, numbers of migration, etc., which may not be true and may not be representative of the facts. 152 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:48,549 So these kind of things are really important, you know, in terms of getting it right, in terms of representation. 153 00:16:48,550 --> 00:16:57,100 I think, you know, across the media, generally speaking, there are lots of studies about this in terms of female representation is particularly low. 154 00:16:57,850 --> 00:17:00,970 I work with vulnerable girls and women, marginalised women. 155 00:17:01,300 --> 00:17:09,300 None of them have ever, you know, taken part in any public events or or spoken, let alone speak publicly. 156 00:17:09,310 --> 00:17:11,380 And that's one of the things we help them to do. 157 00:17:11,710 --> 00:17:19,540 You know, when you empower women as well to tell their own story, that they're able to do that, many people live in fear. 158 00:17:19,540 --> 00:17:23,649 Many of the migrants and the asylum seekers that I work with live in fear. 159 00:17:23,650 --> 00:17:30,630 Basically, they don't want to talk. They're not sure, you know, what they should say, what they shouldn't say, etc., etc. 160 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,670 So there's a lot of things to take into consideration. 161 00:17:34,390 --> 00:17:38,709 Let's talk about the medium for a second, because I know we've talked a little bit about speaking to the media, 162 00:17:38,710 --> 00:17:43,450 but in your example, Salma, of the migration blanket. 163 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:50,620 And I wonder if you could say a little bit more about that project. Why was using the kind of idea of a blanket, 164 00:17:50,620 --> 00:17:58,780 the kind of medium that you wanted to use that might not at first glance seem the most obvious way of kind of telling stories about migration. 165 00:17:59,380 --> 00:18:03,490 I'm so an equal to myself, so I have to say something that really appeals to me. 166 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,890 When you're choosing particular kind of art forms that you think are going to kind of resonate with people, 167 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:11,770 what is it that that kind of informs that choice? 168 00:18:11,770 --> 00:18:17,890 And can you talk a little bit about that project and how it's kind of grown happy to hear that you're a quilter? 169 00:18:18,070 --> 00:18:29,620 Jacqueline. The idea came about from my work previously, and I'd worked on humanitarian projects of work with the United Nations in different places. 170 00:18:29,630 --> 00:18:39,190 And my first experience of meeting refugees was it was in a camp in Pakistan called Jealousy. 171 00:18:39,190 --> 00:18:44,320 Camp was one of the biggest camps in the world at that time for refugees, Afghan refugees. 172 00:18:44,950 --> 00:18:50,919 And, you know, I remember walking around there and meeting people and, you know, 173 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:59,130 it was tent after tent after tent in dusty conditions where there was no sanitation. 174 00:18:59,140 --> 00:19:06,910 You know, the smell was horrendous. There were kids, you know, with their faces in their hands and feet caked in mud. 175 00:19:07,390 --> 00:19:14,830 They don't have anything in these camps. Obviously, They're living, you know, with nothing, you know, basic supplies. 176 00:19:14,830 --> 00:19:23,500 But the one thing that every tent had was a blanket. So this is sort of, you know, how the idea sort of originated. 177 00:19:23,500 --> 00:19:28,990 You know, it sparked something in terms of doing something based on a blanket. 178 00:19:29,410 --> 00:19:37,810 And then I wanted to, as a storyteller, tell stories and allow these women to tell their own stories through the blanket. 179 00:19:37,820 --> 00:19:48,370 So that's how the patchwork idea came up. The first canvas that we created, the migration blanket, was an abstract canvas artwork, 180 00:19:48,370 --> 00:19:52,000 which was created with refugee women asylum seekers in Birmingham. 181 00:19:52,570 --> 00:20:02,230 And, you know, we went on to exhibit in different places, even went to the Venice Biennale, the one of the collateral shows there in 2019. 182 00:20:02,950 --> 00:20:06,670 And it grew from from there, really. 183 00:20:07,060 --> 00:20:12,190 But I wanted to do something which actually gave back more to the refugees as well. 184 00:20:12,190 --> 00:20:18,849 So I employ some of the women as well who worked with, you know, on the blankets with me. 185 00:20:18,850 --> 00:20:24,730 I employ them on a freelance basis to help with projects, which is what Natalia does. 186 00:20:25,120 --> 00:20:31,569 Since then, obviously COVID happened, so we turned it into a film in solidarity. 187 00:20:31,570 --> 00:20:39,880 The migration blanket that was the first film was working with women, and not just in the UK but around the world because I took the project online. 188 00:20:40,390 --> 00:20:44,980 And then from that turning into the Climate Solidarity film, 189 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:53,350 which was released last year and initially shown during the Commonwealth Games because it features women from the Commonwealth. 190 00:20:53,890 --> 00:21:02,650 We've done screenings, you know, in different places across the UK, in lots of universities around the world have shown in Oxford a couple of times. 191 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:06,370 So that's where the project sort of is sitting at the moment. 192 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,329 Thanks so much. It's such an amazing and inspiring project. 193 00:21:10,330 --> 00:21:14,220 And Ruth, I was struck by what Salma said about this idea of kind of. 194 00:21:14,270 --> 00:21:17,599 Of giving back. And you touched on that a little bit earlier. 195 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:22,100 But this idea of a balance between allowing people to be at the centre of their own story, 196 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,479 maybe using things like this to kind of process things that have happened to them, 197 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:35,610 but then also the risk in the research context that things can be extractive or all the kind of negative sides of kind of sharing. 198 00:21:35,630 --> 00:21:39,650 I wonder if you could speak a little bit about how you balance that in the work of 199 00:21:39,650 --> 00:21:44,690 the refugee led research and reflecting a little bit on on what Salma has said, 200 00:21:45,260 --> 00:21:53,809 I'll respond to it in two ways. So first, within the context of refugee led research hub and how we approach these is by centring our work 201 00:21:53,810 --> 00:21:59,719 in the whole idea of supporting refugees and research as we've lived experience of displacement 202 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:05,720 to be knowledge producers as opposed to what has previously been happening when it comes to 203 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:12,200 this research space is mostly them being like the data people who are feeding us with data, 204 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:17,260 you know, or if they're doing much of research. She's more of like as data collectors. 205 00:22:17,660 --> 00:22:25,760 But are they taking part in designing the projects, in analysis and finally producing the final product and even dissemination? 206 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:30,230 So that's one way in which the refugee research hub centres this. 207 00:22:30,590 --> 00:22:40,700 On the question of Extractivism, I think the benefit of based approaches is that it's quite therapeutic actually, 208 00:22:40,700 --> 00:22:44,210 and that's something that Natalia or Sommer mentioned, 209 00:22:44,630 --> 00:22:54,830 the very act of perhaps that see using theatre as a data collection channel or the very act of writing poems, 210 00:22:55,130 --> 00:23:04,250 or the very act of using music or using literary work, which enables you to see how other individuals are processing their own issues. 211 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:12,830 Going back to the whole idea of arts, at least approaches as as a research approach or methodology, 212 00:23:13,550 --> 00:23:22,820 something else is at the heart of what we do at refugee led research Hub is to sort of decolonise our approaches to research, 213 00:23:22,820 --> 00:23:26,420 which I've mentioned already, where it was mostly we call them passions. 214 00:23:26,910 --> 00:23:33,080 Research has me included, because they do not have lived experience of displacement, who we come from Oxford with, 215 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:39,200 our risk assessment plans and all, and going to these places collect, collect, collect, then leave. 216 00:23:39,980 --> 00:23:51,980 But I think one beauty of an arts approach is the very individuals you're working with in this case are refugees themselves are collaborators. 217 00:23:52,310 --> 00:23:57,740 They are participants just like you. They're involved in the process from start to finish. 218 00:23:58,130 --> 00:24:02,300 They co-develop this thing together, they co-produce together, 219 00:24:02,570 --> 00:24:12,830 so it becomes much more supportive and less extractive and listening to the different contributions that have been made to the, 220 00:24:13,460 --> 00:24:18,290 as I mentioned and I writing workshop. And I think I'm getting insights on how to go about it. 221 00:24:19,670 --> 00:24:25,820 So enabling, enabling the learners that I'm working with to think of the papers not just as essays, 222 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,900 but to see how, how can we draw from different perspectives. 223 00:24:29,910 --> 00:24:36,650 Acting Tweeted. Thanks so much. So one final question for for all of you. 224 00:24:36,890 --> 00:24:43,010 I wondered if you had an example that you wanted to share of a piece of art that really changed the way 225 00:24:43,010 --> 00:24:48,680 that you thought about migration or moved you to action or changed the way that you thought about things? 226 00:24:48,980 --> 00:24:55,850 Salma, I'll start with you. Yeah, I would say, you know, so many paintings, so many pictures that the women have created as well. 227 00:24:55,850 --> 00:25:03,889 But prior to that, I mean, I think one of the turning point for what I do as well was this painting by J.M.W. Turner, 228 00:25:03,890 --> 00:25:15,860 the slave Ships, which shows, you know, how slaves were thrown overboard, you know, and people in water basically drowning. 229 00:25:16,580 --> 00:25:22,640 I just think it draws so many parallels with what's happening with migration today as well. 230 00:25:23,030 --> 00:25:32,630 I think, you know, this is is this painting really speaks volumes and holds a lot of weight in what's happening today as well. 231 00:25:33,290 --> 00:25:37,790 Thank Salma Ruth. My response will definitely be a book. 232 00:25:38,090 --> 00:25:44,870 I think it can be evident that literary work is at which I personally identify with. 233 00:25:46,070 --> 00:25:50,510 So these a book that we read for one of the book camps when I was in Nairobi, 234 00:25:51,260 --> 00:25:55,040 so we had a book club that I already mentioned about that brought together different 235 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:59,030 colleagues and both from within the host society and refugees within Kenya. 236 00:25:59,690 --> 00:26:07,850 And we looked at By the Sea, by Abdulrazaq Gona, who's the most recent Nobel Prize winner from Zanzibar. 237 00:26:08,570 --> 00:26:14,050 And this book was quite a opening for all who attended the book club and. 238 00:26:14,090 --> 00:26:20,920 Also read because it was our clear depiction of memory and the place of memory when it comes to migration. 239 00:26:21,370 --> 00:26:26,620 It was a story of an old individual navigating asylum in the UK, 240 00:26:26,950 --> 00:26:34,000 and it's incredible how the power of writing can enable one to fit themselves in a situation. 241 00:26:34,360 --> 00:26:40,300 And also the pull of writing can enable one to be able to understand concepts which have been 242 00:26:40,630 --> 00:26:46,420 placed or made by the media to look like they're difficult and not worth understanding. 243 00:26:46,420 --> 00:26:53,450 And I think that's one way of drawing people away from issues where they could actually advocate for. 244 00:26:53,470 --> 00:26:59,630 So I think that's where activism does come in. I could go on and on, but only with the links. 245 00:27:00,430 --> 00:27:03,820 Thank you, Ruth. Natalia. No. 246 00:27:04,390 --> 00:27:07,750 First off, we work with some common people. 247 00:27:08,540 --> 00:27:15,969 It was one person who was a scientist and he brought pictures, motivated me, 248 00:27:15,970 --> 00:27:24,760 and it was picture of the man, got some friends, and I was inspired to do something of my own. 249 00:27:25,150 --> 00:27:30,820 Also, my father is beekeeper and he has 15 beehives. 250 00:27:31,180 --> 00:27:36,040 We grow vegetables as well and in our allotments. 251 00:27:36,370 --> 00:27:43,630 Yeah, I think it this is pictures inspired me to do something better for our son. 252 00:27:44,410 --> 00:27:52,059 Thanks so much. And wow, three completely different types of inspiration and examples of the way that 253 00:27:52,060 --> 00:27:56,680 art can change hearts and minds and kind of shape sharing our own stories. 254 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:03,730 Salma, before we wrap up, if people want to find out a little bit more about the migration, Blanca and Art connects, where can they do that? 255 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:12,879 They can look at our websites. WW Adult Connect stock co.uk our on social media as well. 256 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,040 So you can just look us up on social media, drop us a line. 257 00:28:16,060 --> 00:28:19,150 We'd love to hear from you. Lovely. Thanks very much, everyone. 258 00:28:19,630 --> 00:28:23,320 You've been listening to the Migration Oxford podcast. I'm Robert Neill. 259 00:28:23,530 --> 00:28:24,490 And I'm Jacqui Broadhead.