Hello and welcome to another episode of the Migration Oxford Podcast.
I'm Rob McNeil. And I'm Jackie Broadhead. So, Jackie, today we're talking about artifice and migration.
And so my understanding of what that means is we're talking about the intersection really between arts and activism in migration.
Now this is the migration entrepot because it's about the academy, it's about research and work of researchers and academics.
Is art and activism really what we're supposed to be doing?
Thanks, Rob. I guess one of the things that academics are encouraged to do is this magical word called impact.
So how do we make sure that our research is impactful and translates through to the real world,
doesn't get stuck just in kind of dusty academic journals not being particularly read and using the arts, using different mediums.
We're using things like podcasts, right? One of the ways that academics, I think, look to do that.
I think what's interesting in this area is this idea of activism.
So where is that an appropriate role for an academic to be engaged in specific kind of activism,
for certain policy goals and certain things we want to change?
We did a seminar series here at Compass a few years back looking at impact.
And one of the things that really stuck with me was that it's important for researchers to be really clear when
they're drawing directly on the work of their research and when they're kind of explaining their opinions.
And so having that very kind of clear delineation between the two, but secondly,
that for some academics and for some research, activism does become really important as part of their practice.
It's something that they that they really want to be involved in.
They want to be able to influence policy debates and that it's important to recognise the kind of trade offs between that.
So there are going to be some spaces if you're operating in a more activist way that you're going to have
less influence in than if you're choosing to stick very narrowly to what the findings of your research say.
And I think it's something that all kind of researchers and academics spend time working on what their own kind of outlook is going to be.
But I think it's really crucial, actually,
that we step out of the confines solely of research for those people that want to and to think about what their impact is going to be.
And as part of that, using the arts as a way of telling stories feels to me really important.
Once you start stepping into a place of activism, does that not affect your authority as an academic?
I think that's certainly a risk.
You know, we see it and the sense that if you're putting your thumb on the scale of an outcome, you know that you want, that's part of your activism.
Whether that's going to compromise this idea that you are engaging in sort of objective science,
I think we can question some of those concepts for a start,
but it's something that you have to be really aware of because if you do enter into the activist space,
then in some ways it's a can sometimes be a one way street. If you're seen over associated as being in the activist space,
it's going to then be hard to be seen purely as as a voice that isn't putting the thumb on the scale in one direction or another.
There's horses for courses, you know, the academy is not is not one.
Different academics take radically different stances on this.
Some academics aren't particularly trying to to have impact outside of the academy that focuses on their research.
And I always say, you know, if impact work and knowledge exchange and doing stuff like that doesn't suit you,
it is perfectly legitimate to want to be an academic in order to produce knowledge.
Share that with your colleagues and kind of advance advance your your goals that way.
But if you do want to, I think taking a kind of reflective practice that allows you to understand how you're going to be seen,
how that influence is going to kind of manifest itself, that feels important.
My view is not that that's one way to do it, and it's something that individual researchers make decisions on in their own practice.
That's really interesting.
I'd like to move a little bit, actually on to the question of art and the role of art in understanding the societies that we live in,
in facilitating integration and also being the tools for speaking to people for it, for making.
You've always had one of the things that I was sort of thinking about as,
as I was listening to you speaking to our guests today was something that I've always thought is fundamental to what modern Britain has become,
which is oddly, the band,
the specials and the concept that what they were doing, the creation of the art that they were making was about reimagining Britain,
reimagining what this country was, which was completely different to the kind of mainstream ideal of what Britishness was.
At that point in time. It was art that was created by a bunch of British youths of different sort of backgrounds that actually described Britain very,
very differently in the sort of late 1970s and late 1980s.
It was a moment of trying to achieve cultural change in the space of migration in various different ways, but fundamentally integration.
And I think it does it does merit academic investigation.
That is an interesting subject to dig into and to think about in the discussion that we have today.
I think there are a couple of really interesting aspects.
So the first is this idea of how much are these type of projects that using arts as kind of ways to allow people to kind of
process and tell their own stories and a kind of internal way of understanding what's happened and what your own experiences are,
sharing them within your community and to what extent they're about moving beyond that and actually allowing
other people to have empathy and to understand your experience or to have that kind of shared experience.
And some of the examples that we've had, whether it be kind of your music in the specials,
whether it's kind of visual arts, whether it's crafts, whether it's literature,
I think that idea that we can use the arts to think not only about the world as it is,
but the world as it should be, and to kind of imagine new ways of being that to me, feels inspiring and exciting.
And and that's why I'm so looking forward to this discussion. I'm joined by Salma Zulfikar, artist,
activist and creator of Art Connects Natalia Federico Art Connects participant and Assistant and Ruth near Bhutto,
near Caravaggio, who works as the academic manager at the refugee led research hub here at the University of Oxford,
with offices both in Oxford and Nairobi. Sam, I'm going to come to you today.
We're talking about activism. Can you explain what you mean by activism when we're thinking about migration?
Thank you for having us. It's great to be with you. For me, through art connects, you know, establishing art connects.
It's a bridge between art and activism is to help support migrants and refugees,
to help empower women and girls and vulnerable women who are living on the edge of society.
The work that we do is about changing attitudes.
I think activism in migration has has a big role to play in terms of changing attitudes in host communities and
changing those stereotypes and really giving those people who don't often have a chance to have their say.
And it's also about being inclusive,
raising awareness and the importance of diversity in our communities and and also about how it can change people's lives,
giving them support and giving them resources and giving them access to opportunities that they probably won't get.
And racism has increased because of the pandemic as well, like crimes and attacks against the LGBT community have also increased.
So the work is really about addressing all of this and, you know, helping people to improve their wellbeing as well.
Then 90% of the people that we've worked with in our Migration Blankets film project said it helped them improve their wellbeing.
It helped them want to think about meeting people from different cultures as well.
Lots of lots of different links between migration and activism to create tolerance and peace in our communities.
Thanks so much, Salma Natalia, for you.
How has participating in art workshops helped you to understand or to tell your story?
The workshops help me to release my feelings and to call my stories.
I remember last year we had with Salma some workshops with Ukrainian Refugee and we draw Sky How city without bombs, full family, happy children.
Yeah, and I drove I remember I drove home with this cry with some because I miss my house of my house of missing of my family, my friends.
Yeah. And this picture, it's so what I want.
And also help me think about my future and what I need for the future.
A lot of women comes here with children.
Now, children don't have opportunity to study in Ukraine now.
Here they have a big opportunity to study at school, to study, to university, university.
It's like story in my life. On the paper, we wanted to say that we qualify.
We need to find good job for leave here and but also.
We miss primarily about our country and we worried about country because we all need peace.
And yeah, we did all this on the paper when we had we send like this and workshops.
I visited different galleries with art venues, with art connects and different aspect of UK life.
Also, we had a lot of events with another refugee with Afghanistan, with Iranian Pakistani refugee, and we also speak about our problems.
We grow these problems on paper, we speak about culture.
We we have so different culture.
But yeah, we all refugee and we try to support each other because we all state not in our country like I in Ukraine.
Thanks so much, Natalia. Ruth, your work at the refugee led research hub focuses on empowerment and leadership for refugees.
And we just heard from Salma about this idea of art as kind of inclusion and participation,
but also as a way of kind of sharing stories and being that kind of persuasive tool.
Do you think that art projects can work within a kind of activism space of developing new stories as well as kind of including people in projects?
Definitely, especially when it comes to research.
Well, the refugee led research hub leads in empowering and enabling students and learners with lived experience of displacement to access research.
I think it does play a place in enabling inclusivity, enabling participatory research, enabling accessibility,
breaking down work which would initially not have been accessible to not only those who are researching,
but also those who need to know that information and to just drive this point home.
On the second question you asked, on what difference it makes when it comes to creating new narratives.
I'll point out to my experience back in Nairobi, where I was leading the Nairobi office and we came up with a book club where we got to discuss books
written on forced displacement or books written by individuals with lead experience of displacement.
And one book, for example, which is called Weight of Bus Best Kenyan author,
but looks at a Rwandese experience navigating this space in Kenya after the 94 genocide.
It's amazing how that book, a 40 something page book,
elicited so much memory and so much experiences that majority of those who were in the room wanted to share.
That was a beautiful moment, but also a poignant one. Seeing how the use of literary work can actually enable others to think deeply about the
experiences to share stories which would otherwise not have been experienced and felt.
Thanks, Ruth. I just wonder if I could just come back to you.
Just something that both you and Salma have said about the importance for people with lived experience.
But Salma also mentioned about this idea of persuasion.
Is there a tension for you between the stories that people tell to have their own story heard versus what Salma was talking about,
which is how you change people's minds, who might have a more negative view, for example, on on migration or on forced displacement.
I think tensions could be also from personal perspective.
First, this is someone who's bearing that story out there and also not just bearing the story for the purpose of burying,
but taking it to an activist perspective.
And that can come with a lot of happiness and also a lot of expectations.
So I think it's striking a balance. And this perhaps could go to the question of ethics and also the question of what support
looks like in enabling individuals to share their stories and use this in a persuasive way.
From my experience, I could speak of it from a research perspective, academic research perspective,
having supported a couple of learners to, for example, explore sharing their own stories through writing.
And the difficulty is placing their voice in a way that is academic,
in a way that it doesn't reduce the legitimacy of that paper, and it's not something which is difficult to navigate.
Have I found an answer to it?
I still grapple with it every time we take through some land as a work with an academic writing where they want to bring in their experiences,
but these academic rules on how to do that.
So these challenges there. But I'd say, for example,
one way in which such tension is addressed is now like a pretty interesting methodology that at best research methods through which it's now like
turning away from the more traditional perspective and individuals can actually come in and draw from such methodology in an academic and allowed way,
for lack of a better word. But super keen to hear someone's experience.
Thanks so much, Ruth. And Salma, how do you manage that, that tension within your work?
Ruth I totally agree with, again with what you're saying to, you know, especially on the ethics side of things,
you know, having spent time working in the media myself as well and working closely with them now,
it's really important to have accurate and representative reporting on migration because it is so powerful when you read a story and you see an image.
Just like with art, you know, seeing some things picture speaks louder than than words do in many cases.
So it's really important to get that right. I think sometimes the images that.
We see again and again and again, you know, probably causing people to think differently in terms of migration.
And, you know, especially with the issue of the boats as well, it may be conjures up ideas about,
you know, numbers of migration, etc., which may not be true and may not be representative of the facts.
So these kind of things are really important, you know, in terms of getting it right, in terms of representation.
I think, you know, across the media, generally speaking, there are lots of studies about this in terms of female representation is particularly low.
I work with vulnerable girls and women, marginalised women.
None of them have ever, you know, taken part in any public events or or spoken, let alone speak publicly.
And that's one of the things we help them to do.
You know, when you empower women as well to tell their own story, that they're able to do that, many people live in fear.
Many of the migrants and the asylum seekers that I work with live in fear.
Basically, they don't want to talk. They're not sure, you know, what they should say, what they shouldn't say, etc., etc.
So there's a lot of things to take into consideration.
Let's talk about the medium for a second, because I know we've talked a little bit about speaking to the media,
but in your example, Salma, of the migration blanket.
And I wonder if you could say a little bit more about that project. Why was using the kind of idea of a blanket,
the kind of medium that you wanted to use that might not at first glance seem the most obvious way of kind of telling stories about migration.
I'm so an equal to myself, so I have to say something that really appeals to me.
When you're choosing particular kind of art forms that you think are going to kind of resonate with people,
what is it that that kind of informs that choice?
And can you talk a little bit about that project and how it's kind of grown happy to hear that you're a quilter?
Jacqueline. The idea came about from my work previously, and I'd worked on humanitarian projects of work with the United Nations in different places.
And my first experience of meeting refugees was it was in a camp in Pakistan called Jealousy.
Camp was one of the biggest camps in the world at that time for refugees, Afghan refugees.
And, you know, I remember walking around there and meeting people and, you know,
it was tent after tent after tent in dusty conditions where there was no sanitation.
You know, the smell was horrendous. There were kids, you know, with their faces in their hands and feet caked in mud.
They don't have anything in these camps. Obviously, They're living, you know, with nothing, you know, basic supplies.
But the one thing that every tent had was a blanket. So this is sort of, you know, how the idea sort of originated.
You know, it sparked something in terms of doing something based on a blanket.
And then I wanted to, as a storyteller, tell stories and allow these women to tell their own stories through the blanket.
So that's how the patchwork idea came up. The first canvas that we created, the migration blanket, was an abstract canvas artwork,
which was created with refugee women asylum seekers in Birmingham.
And, you know, we went on to exhibit in different places, even went to the Venice Biennale, the one of the collateral shows there in 2019.
And it grew from from there, really.
But I wanted to do something which actually gave back more to the refugees as well.
So I employ some of the women as well who worked with, you know, on the blankets with me.
I employ them on a freelance basis to help with projects, which is what Natalia does.
Since then, obviously COVID happened, so we turned it into a film in solidarity.
The migration blanket that was the first film was working with women, and not just in the UK but around the world because I took the project online.
And then from that turning into the Climate Solidarity film,
which was released last year and initially shown during the Commonwealth Games because it features women from the Commonwealth.
We've done screenings, you know, in different places across the UK, in lots of universities around the world have shown in Oxford a couple of times.
So that's where the project sort of is sitting at the moment.
Thanks so much. It's such an amazing and inspiring project.
And Ruth, I was struck by what Salma said about this idea of kind of.
Of giving back. And you touched on that a little bit earlier.
But this idea of a balance between allowing people to be at the centre of their own story,
maybe using things like this to kind of process things that have happened to them,
but then also the risk in the research context that things can be extractive or all the kind of negative sides of kind of sharing.
I wonder if you could speak a little bit about how you balance that in the work of
the refugee led research and reflecting a little bit on on what Salma has said,
I'll respond to it in two ways. So first, within the context of refugee led research hub and how we approach these is by centring our work
in the whole idea of supporting refugees and research as we've lived experience of displacement
to be knowledge producers as opposed to what has previously been happening when it comes to
this research space is mostly them being like the data people who are feeding us with data,
you know, or if they're doing much of research. She's more of like as data collectors.
But are they taking part in designing the projects, in analysis and finally producing the final product and even dissemination?
So that's one way in which the refugee research hub centres this.
On the question of Extractivism, I think the benefit of based approaches is that it's quite therapeutic actually,
and that's something that Natalia or Sommer mentioned,
the very act of perhaps that see using theatre as a data collection channel or the very act of writing poems,
or the very act of using music or using literary work, which enables you to see how other individuals are processing their own issues.
Going back to the whole idea of arts, at least approaches as as a research approach or methodology,
something else is at the heart of what we do at refugee led research Hub is to sort of decolonise our approaches to research,
which I've mentioned already, where it was mostly we call them passions.
Research has me included, because they do not have lived experience of displacement, who we come from Oxford with,
our risk assessment plans and all, and going to these places collect, collect, collect, then leave.
But I think one beauty of an arts approach is the very individuals you're working with in this case are refugees themselves are collaborators.
They are participants just like you. They're involved in the process from start to finish.
They co-develop this thing together, they co-produce together,
so it becomes much more supportive and less extractive and listening to the different contributions that have been made to the,
as I mentioned and I writing workshop. And I think I'm getting insights on how to go about it.
So enabling, enabling the learners that I'm working with to think of the papers not just as essays,
but to see how, how can we draw from different perspectives.
Acting Tweeted. Thanks so much. So one final question for for all of you.
I wondered if you had an example that you wanted to share of a piece of art that really changed the way
that you thought about migration or moved you to action or changed the way that you thought about things?
Salma, I'll start with you. Yeah, I would say, you know, so many paintings, so many pictures that the women have created as well.
But prior to that, I mean, I think one of the turning point for what I do as well was this painting by J.M.W. Turner,
the slave Ships, which shows, you know, how slaves were thrown overboard, you know, and people in water basically drowning.
I just think it draws so many parallels with what's happening with migration today as well.
I think, you know, this is is this painting really speaks volumes and holds a lot of weight in what's happening today as well.
Thank Salma Ruth. My response will definitely be a book.
I think it can be evident that literary work is at which I personally identify with.
So these a book that we read for one of the book camps when I was in Nairobi,
so we had a book club that I already mentioned about that brought together different
colleagues and both from within the host society and refugees within Kenya.
And we looked at By the Sea, by Abdulrazaq Gona, who's the most recent Nobel Prize winner from Zanzibar.
And this book was quite a opening for all who attended the book club and.
Also read because it was our clear depiction of memory and the place of memory when it comes to migration.
It was a story of an old individual navigating asylum in the UK,
and it's incredible how the power of writing can enable one to fit themselves in a situation.
And also the pull of writing can enable one to be able to understand concepts which have been
placed or made by the media to look like they're difficult and not worth understanding.
And I think that's one way of drawing people away from issues where they could actually advocate for.
So I think that's where activism does come in. I could go on and on, but only with the links.
Thank you, Ruth. Natalia. No.
First off, we work with some common people.
It was one person who was a scientist and he brought pictures, motivated me,
and it was picture of the man, got some friends, and I was inspired to do something of my own.
Also, my father is beekeeper and he has 15 beehives.
We grow vegetables as well and in our allotments.
Yeah, I think it this is pictures inspired me to do something better for our son.
Thanks so much. And wow, three completely different types of inspiration and examples of the way that
art can change hearts and minds and kind of shape sharing our own stories.
Salma, before we wrap up, if people want to find out a little bit more about the migration, Blanca and Art connects, where can they do that?
They can look at our websites. WW Adult Connect stock co.uk our on social media as well.
So you can just look us up on social media, drop us a line.
We'd love to hear from you. Lovely. Thanks very much, everyone.
You've been listening to the Migration Oxford podcast. I'm Robert Neill.
And I'm Jacqui Broadhead.