1 00:00:00,150 --> 00:00:05,160 Hello and welcome to the Migration Oxford Podcast. I'm Jackie Broadhead, and I'm Rob McNeil. 2 00:00:05,610 --> 00:00:11,040 Today we're talking about diaspora engagement. But what do we mean when we say the word diaspora? 3 00:00:12,030 --> 00:00:19,079 Well, I mean, I think this is a really complicated question in some respects, because it's it's a word that's changed in meaning, I think, 4 00:00:19,080 --> 00:00:24,840 over the last 50 or 60 years from the original idea that it was something that related to communities like the Jewish 5 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:30,930 and the Armenian communities that had been effectively exiled for many generations and had held together a community, 6 00:00:30,930 --> 00:00:34,120 that diaspora community, and through, you know, 7 00:00:34,140 --> 00:00:39,710 traditions and membership of that social group over a long period of time through 8 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:44,700 to something which really now describes just communities and communities that 9 00:00:44,700 --> 00:00:50,900 are living overseas or in different countries or that are held together by those 10 00:00:51,060 --> 00:00:58,440 bonds of community when they come from one place and are living in another. And importantly, those those groups have political power, 11 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:04,610 and that is these are groups that exercise political power both in their countries of destination and in the countries of origin often. 12 00:01:04,620 --> 00:01:07,829 And there are efforts commonly to engage those communities. 13 00:01:07,830 --> 00:01:10,230 And that's what a lot of our conversation today has been about. 14 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:16,530 And this is something that is common and is understood socially as part of the fabric of modern society. 15 00:01:17,510 --> 00:01:21,860 And that's, I think, one of the most interesting shifts that we're looking at here, 16 00:01:21,860 --> 00:01:27,770 this move from perhaps seeing diasporas as something vulnerable or quite fragmented, 17 00:01:28,010 --> 00:01:34,610 struggling to maybe maintain those connections with each other and also with their country of origin 18 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,720 and the ways in which they do that through to actually being agents of quite a lot of power, 19 00:01:38,930 --> 00:01:46,790 whether that's kind of hard and soft political power, whether that's the idea of diasporas as agents within diplomacy, 20 00:01:47,030 --> 00:01:50,750 but also economically through things like remittances. 21 00:01:51,110 --> 00:01:56,420 What do we know about that shift in the way that we're perceiving the power of diaspora? 22 00:01:57,230 --> 00:02:02,760 Well, I think that it's clear and it was very clear in the conversation that we both had on, you know, 23 00:02:02,780 --> 00:02:05,540 until it was recorded and in the conversation that we had afterwards, 24 00:02:05,870 --> 00:02:10,670 that there have been massive shifts in the way that we perceive these communities even. 25 00:02:11,630 --> 00:02:19,340 But but also, I mean, just things like the sort of digital revolution that we've had, the ease of communicating with people now, 26 00:02:19,340 --> 00:02:23,690 the ease of just speaking to your 2 to 2 family members that may be thousands of 27 00:02:23,690 --> 00:02:29,269 miles away and being involved in the day to day politics of the of your country 28 00:02:29,270 --> 00:02:35,209 of origin and also your country of residence has made a fundamental change to 29 00:02:35,210 --> 00:02:39,500 the way that diaspora communities are engaged with modern with modern society, 30 00:02:39,920 --> 00:02:44,830 and has really highlighted that they can have profound power in, you know, 31 00:02:44,870 --> 00:02:50,120 both political power at home and political power in those countries of origin as well. 32 00:02:50,810 --> 00:02:53,299 I mean, that shift is evident, as you say, 33 00:02:53,300 --> 00:03:02,900 in everything from the enormous importance of remittances as a as a as a means of as a means of bringing about international development dwarfs that 34 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:15,530 the money generated for developing economies from from from and from remittances absolutely dwarfs international aid budgets all the way through to, 35 00:03:15,530 --> 00:03:20,990 you know, fundamental political shifts, changes in the way that people perceive how their countries should function. 36 00:03:21,260 --> 00:03:26,300 And and this is enormous. It's a massive, massive thing and something that we really can't ignore. 37 00:03:26,810 --> 00:03:31,730 Absolutely. And are the other risks, do you think, to having this kind of approach? 38 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:39,049 I mean, you know, one example of a person we could describe as being from a diaspora community would be our own prime minister, 39 00:03:39,050 --> 00:03:46,820 which is do not and his his background. But at a certain point, as you become, you know, these terms like second or third generation, 40 00:03:47,060 --> 00:03:52,100 they can also become a little bit problematic because they in some ways call into 41 00:03:52,100 --> 00:03:57,980 question your membership of being British of the community that you now live in. 42 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:05,960 How do you think we manage that will to want to engage with diaspora communities, understand our global connectedness, 43 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:16,370 but also not inadvertently even discriminate or or describe people as being in some ways not fully part of the communities that they now belong to. 44 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:22,129 A really key part of this is the recognition that that we all have multiple identities. 45 00:04:22,130 --> 00:04:26,209 You know, we're all I mean, I'm from I mean, I grew up in Wiltshire. 46 00:04:26,210 --> 00:04:29,990 I see myself very much as a sort of Wiltshire boy, but I'm British as well. 47 00:04:30,170 --> 00:04:39,680 I can also be European, and I'm also I have Scottish and Irish heritage and all of these are things that comprise me as an individual, you know, 48 00:04:39,950 --> 00:04:44,960 And I think that all of us have components of that and the fact that, you know, 49 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:52,249 being British doesn't stop me from being from malmesbury, you know, to me, it doesn't stop me from having Irish heritage. 50 00:04:52,250 --> 00:04:56,780 It doesn't stop any of those kinds of things from being a part of who I am at the same time. 51 00:04:57,050 --> 00:04:58,820 And I think it's perfectly reasonable, 52 00:04:58,820 --> 00:05:05,650 perfectly possible for people to have these multiple identities and all of these things can coexist without actually having any conflict. 53 00:05:05,660 --> 00:05:11,450 There's no reason why it's not possible to be a multitude of different things at the same time. 54 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:18,379 Now, obviously, that can sometimes mean that, you know, you prioritise one component of your identity over another every now and then, 55 00:05:18,380 --> 00:05:24,950 but that doesn't mean that you're other completely the other components of your of your identity are irrelevant in these situations. 56 00:05:24,950 --> 00:05:29,509 And I think that depending on how we operate, depending on who we are and what we're doing, 57 00:05:29,510 --> 00:05:34,489 we can, we can quite comfortably be these different things at different times. 58 00:05:34,490 --> 00:05:40,760 It's perfectly possible for Rishi Sunak to be a very British, very conservative prime minister, 59 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:47,450 representing very conservative ideals and very and things that are fundamentally related to, you know, 60 00:05:47,450 --> 00:05:54,770 like what it means to be a British citizen whilst at the same time not running away from his from his own heritage and not ignoring who he is, 61 00:05:54,950 --> 00:05:58,970 because you can be something which is which, which is multiple, which is different. 62 00:05:59,210 --> 00:06:03,230 I think organisations like British Future in the work that syndicate Walter has done at 63 00:06:03,230 --> 00:06:09,350 British Future have really helped to identify that to be British in the modern world. 64 00:06:09,500 --> 00:06:16,940 It doesn't mean being white and it doesn't mean, you know, singing Jerusalem in church on Sunday or anything. 65 00:06:17,530 --> 00:06:23,200 It can be something which is about your origins that are much more complex than that. 66 00:06:23,470 --> 00:06:30,460 And there's no reason why that Britishness is necessarily any more or less than anybody else's Britishness. 67 00:06:30,820 --> 00:06:37,170 So I think that it's really important to remember that, you know, being part of a diaspora is an important part of who you are, 68 00:06:37,180 --> 00:06:40,450 but it doesn't mean that it defines everything that you do always. 69 00:06:41,050 --> 00:06:46,720 That feels like the perfect point for us to. Without further ado, get to our conversation with our experts. 70 00:06:47,740 --> 00:06:55,240 I'm here with Alan Gamblin, who's Professor of Migration governance at the Australian National University, with Martin Russell, 71 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:59,440 who's the Director of Global Diaspora Insights, and with Larissa Lara, 72 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,670 who is Diaspora Engagement Officer for the International Organisation for Migration. 73 00:07:04,270 --> 00:07:11,110 So Alan, I want to start with the basics. What are diaspora engagement policies and what are they designed to achieve? 74 00:07:11,770 --> 00:07:19,360 Thanks, Rob, and thanks for the invite to be with you here today, tonight or whatever it is where you are. 75 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:27,459 So yeah, Diaspora engagement policies are essentially government policies and programs directed 76 00:07:27,460 --> 00:07:32,920 towards or dedicated to immigrants and their descendants who are living abroad. 77 00:07:33,220 --> 00:07:39,790 So I say the word immigrants carefully so that you don't get my Kiwi accent mixed up. 78 00:07:39,790 --> 00:07:41,620 So people, people who leave. 79 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:51,040 So we typically think of migration policy as policy towards people who arrive, but actually for probably the majority of countries around the world, 80 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,900 it's actually towards people who leave those people leaving at their most interested in. 81 00:07:56,260 --> 00:08:07,380 And so there's a whole range of things that countries, governments and countries of origins want from or with people who leave, 82 00:08:07,390 --> 00:08:12,790 often diaspora engagement policies, you know, about negotiating bilateral agreements, 83 00:08:13,090 --> 00:08:20,409 oversupply of labour, or preparing migrants to undertake their journeys or protecting the rights and 84 00:08:20,410 --> 00:08:24,730 interests of those migrants when they're abroad trying to address their concerns, 85 00:08:25,210 --> 00:08:34,450 facilitating their remittances back to the country of origin, preserving their identities and ties through cultural exchange programs, 86 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:44,740 cultivating networks of influential and affluent compatriots who are living in other countries might be able to help their country of origin. 87 00:08:44,770 --> 00:08:47,860 So there's a whole range of things. Fantastic. 88 00:08:48,220 --> 00:08:55,660 So, Larissa, can I just ask you, why do you think now is a key time to talk about diaspora community driving change? 89 00:08:56,350 --> 00:09:00,970 Thank you. In the past few years, there has been a lot of attention given to diasporas. 90 00:09:01,300 --> 00:09:07,240 And this is really great. And in particular, it has been pushed by member states and a lot of great partners. 91 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:13,000 So last year in April, we co-organised with the Government of Ireland the Global Diaspora Summit, 92 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:20,440 and we had a really great opportunity to bring together diasporas in the same on the same table with the governments. 93 00:09:20,740 --> 00:09:25,600 So they were really exchanging and putting out their what their needs are and 94 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:29,860 also what they can bring to the table in development and in humanitarianism. 95 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:38,470 So I would say it's a very key and excited moment to engage with diasporas and recognise them as development and humanitarian actors, 96 00:09:38,710 --> 00:09:48,580 specifically because we have together after the Declaration, we have a very concrete, concrete plan which is the outcome document from it. 97 00:09:48,790 --> 00:09:54,459 It's called the Dublin Declaration and it really sets up step by step goals of what 98 00:09:54,460 --> 00:09:59,140 the global community will be doing in the next year to maximise diaspora engagement. 99 00:09:59,560 --> 00:10:05,020 And through it particularly, I just want to highlight the Global Diaspora Policy Alliance, 100 00:10:05,290 --> 00:10:12,220 which is really that environment to institutionalise the relationship between governments, diasporas, 101 00:10:12,250 --> 00:10:17,800 partners in the private sector and other partners across the world that want to engage with diasporas 102 00:10:17,980 --> 00:10:23,680 and partner with them to to maximise development in their countries of origin and destination. 103 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:32,260 Okay. So, Martin I'm the term don't ask for itself seems to have evolved quite a lot in the last few decades. 104 00:10:32,710 --> 00:10:37,120 So we've been talking so far about the role of diaspora in bringing about things 105 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:41,290 like change in development context in countries of origin and that sort of thing. 106 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:46,300 But what do we actually mean when we talk about diaspora now? 107 00:10:47,150 --> 00:10:50,440 Alan kind of gave us the early kind of answers to that. 108 00:10:50,450 --> 00:10:53,239 On one level when we began to think about immigrants and their descendants. 109 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:57,559 And, you know, I think as you mentioned over the last I think kind of 10 to 15 years, 110 00:10:57,560 --> 00:11:04,010 there's been a real acceleration of interest not just from countries of origin, but also countries of destination and not just government as well. 111 00:11:04,010 --> 00:11:09,169 I think private sector are getting more and more interest in this area. I think foundations of the third sector are beginning to pick up on this. 112 00:11:09,170 --> 00:11:14,329 And the word I would use is that I think diaspora has gone mainstream over the last 10 to 15 years. 113 00:11:14,330 --> 00:11:20,420 And I mean, 15, 20 years ago, if you said to somebody I'm working on Diaspora, they'd say to you, Have you found a cure yet? 114 00:11:21,650 --> 00:11:25,790 No, Nobody really kind of knew what it meant on one level, to be frank, 115 00:11:25,790 --> 00:11:28,790 you know, And I think people kind of understood that it's related to migration. 116 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:34,000 But then I think the level of kind of critical thinking and analysis and particularly academic debate, 117 00:11:34,010 --> 00:11:39,950 the evolution of diaspora studies, kind of with the breakdown of the Cold War, began to really kind of refocus the mind on the topic. 118 00:11:39,950 --> 00:11:45,320 So I think we talk about immigrants and descendants, but the word that captures it for me, I think is belonging. 119 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,400 When we talk about diaspora, the word I would say it's about having a sense of belonging. 120 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,490 And that belonging is it's not just for the government anymore. 121 00:11:52,490 --> 00:11:56,209 As I see, organisations of different are beginning to look at this topic. 122 00:11:56,210 --> 00:12:02,420 Universities have diasporas, what they call them alumni. But you know, we begin to kind of take lessons and insights from there. 123 00:12:02,420 --> 00:12:08,210 So so that's what I would say. And just to kind of close out what we talk about, at least for me and my understanding of diaspora, 124 00:12:08,690 --> 00:12:13,849 I think it's important that we do try to unpack those relationships between migration and diaspora. 125 00:12:13,850 --> 00:12:21,169 So I often say that migration is the language of borders and identity, but diaspora is the language of belonging and identification. 126 00:12:21,170 --> 00:12:26,030 I think it's a bit more of a fluid concept. So so that's how I would kind of bring those two together, in essence. 127 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:35,390 Okay, excellent. So, Larissa, how should we think about the role of diaspora engagement compared to community leadership and empowerment? 128 00:12:35,870 --> 00:12:42,470 And where do you think that diaspora engagement is going to shape communities or even the world in the coming years? 129 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:47,360 And can you give us some ideas about where we can see this happening already? 130 00:12:47,630 --> 00:12:51,260 Thank you. I think Martin put the perfect word to it. 131 00:12:51,260 --> 00:12:57,260 It is belonging and how to to really understand belonging and how we can make that into positive change. 132 00:12:57,260 --> 00:13:01,220 I think that's the key area of study is in diaspora. 133 00:13:02,210 --> 00:13:05,420 Just to add to that, I really think diasporas are unique. 134 00:13:05,450 --> 00:13:09,890 They are actors that really understand at least two or three settings. 135 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:18,620 And even when you're doing your bureaucracy, it's really interesting to see how diaspora can manage to navigate those spaces in a very easy way. 136 00:13:18,950 --> 00:13:22,729 So they they really serve as bridges in society. 137 00:13:22,730 --> 00:13:30,470 They reduce the gaps and distances, they maximise strategic connections, they fully foster partnerships and resource mobilisation. 138 00:13:30,770 --> 00:13:37,190 So I think in the future we will continue to see diaspora engaging, especially at the humanitarian level. 139 00:13:37,190 --> 00:13:46,250 I would say unfortunately we will keep looking at conflicts and all the issues that are driven by climate emergency 140 00:13:46,490 --> 00:13:52,430 and I'm a truly believer the diasporas will be at the forefront because they have done so for many years. 141 00:13:52,730 --> 00:13:59,300 So I think those are the the engagements that we have to look at and to be concise, really to learn from them, 142 00:13:59,540 --> 00:14:04,020 to tailor much better the programs and responses in this, in this, 143 00:14:04,460 --> 00:14:09,290 in these countries and settings that are going to be facing, sadly, more and more challenges. 144 00:14:09,530 --> 00:14:13,399 So that would be the answer for for those questions. Okay. 145 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:19,580 So, Alan, in a world which is ever more diverse and in which large numbers of high profile 146 00:14:19,580 --> 00:14:23,540 politicians and even world leaders are themselves members of diaspora communities, 147 00:14:24,290 --> 00:14:31,000 is there a point where membership of a diaspora community ceases to be something that should really be a subject for efforts? 148 00:14:31,110 --> 00:14:35,899 Engagement? I mean, my obvious example here is our own Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak. 149 00:14:35,900 --> 00:14:39,680 Now Rishi Sunak is of East African Indian descent. 150 00:14:40,010 --> 00:14:44,600 So is it appropriate for people to be looking at Rishi Sunak and thinking, you know, 151 00:14:45,170 --> 00:14:51,350 you're a member of our diaspora and therefore we should be active entering your membership of that diaspora 152 00:14:51,830 --> 00:14:59,090 or should he be representing something fundamentally different as Prime Minister of Britain specifically? 153 00:14:59,090 --> 00:15:08,090 I suppose my key question is, is there is this basically something that should always be fundamental in the way that we deal with people, 154 00:15:08,510 --> 00:15:13,550 or is it something that should become irrelevant? It's a great question, Rob. 155 00:15:15,110 --> 00:15:21,470 I think the key words in your in your question are a should and appropriate. 156 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:27,889 And then the question really becomes, well, should from whose perspective? 157 00:15:27,890 --> 00:15:32,030 From whose perspective is it the is it the right thing to do? 158 00:15:32,690 --> 00:15:46,100 So so one of the most interesting and controversial things about this type of politics or policy is that, well, first of all. 159 00:15:46,940 --> 00:15:52,579 They've proliferated rapidly in the last few decades. 160 00:15:52,580 --> 00:16:01,010 So that's sort of surprising. But theoretically, they're also in violation of some of the key norms of the international system. 161 00:16:01,220 --> 00:16:07,880 But what we what we typically understand of as norms of the international system. 162 00:16:08,150 --> 00:16:15,229 So, you know, people make complaints that perhaps, you know, when, say, 163 00:16:15,230 --> 00:16:22,550 the Turkish prime minister goes to a European country and says something like integration is a crime against humanity, 164 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:30,680 that that is somehow Turkey interfering in the domestic affairs of those European countries. 165 00:16:30,950 --> 00:16:36,260 And there are similar examples of those kinds of fears in many other countries as well. 166 00:16:37,070 --> 00:16:46,340 There are also concerns about how these types of policies give voice to people who don't 167 00:16:46,340 --> 00:16:51,950 have to bear the consequences of the rest of the decisions that they're involved in making. 168 00:16:52,220 --> 00:16:56,690 And this is particularly a debate when it comes to external voting, 169 00:16:56,690 --> 00:17:03,079 but it has wider relevance to the issue of whether government should be spending its time 170 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:10,400 and energy and resources on empowering and giving voice to people who live abroad and who, 171 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:16,130 you know, won't be around too, to live under the laws that they helped to make. 172 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:24,020 There's also the question of, you know, for throughout the whole modern period, 173 00:17:24,530 --> 00:17:31,580 particularly in the West, we've seen Freedom of Exit as a defining feature of liberal democracy. 174 00:17:31,910 --> 00:17:34,520 So when people leave a country, 175 00:17:35,510 --> 00:17:45,380 we assumed in liberal democracies that they're kind of off limits because they might be leaving in order to vote with their feet to express dissent. 176 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:51,740 And so these are sometimes questions raised when countries like, you know, 177 00:17:52,190 --> 00:17:58,040 Russia goes out and poisons dissident dissidents in London or when, you know, 178 00:17:58,700 --> 00:18:06,469 Saudi Arabia doesn't like it when journalists in the US are saying bad things about Saudi Arabia 179 00:18:06,470 --> 00:18:13,130 and they engage those journalists by chopping them up and dissolving them in the in the consulate. 180 00:18:14,750 --> 00:18:18,560 And, you know, increasingly authoritarian regimes like China, 181 00:18:19,850 --> 00:18:30,410 like Myanmar and others sort of use extraterritorial surveillance and coercion to to force people to do things abroad. 182 00:18:30,430 --> 00:18:36,829 So, for example, dissidents who are living abroad, they'll say, you know, well, your family's at home. 183 00:18:36,830 --> 00:18:44,020 So if you don't say or do the things we want, even though you're living in Singapore or wherever it might be Australia, we've got your family here. 184 00:18:44,030 --> 00:18:50,839 So, you know, if you say the wrong thing, we'll get to them. So there are a lot of legitimate concerns about these types of policies, 185 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:58,850 how they they might represent a violation of what it means to be a modern nation state. 186 00:18:59,100 --> 00:19:04,070 But but if you think back to I mean, these questions of should and appropriate. 187 00:19:04,430 --> 00:19:11,239 Well, at one end of the spectrum, we might say that, you know, all group identities are really, in a sense, 188 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:17,850 political projects that are mobilised by particular people in order to increase their power, 189 00:19:17,870 --> 00:19:24,170 whether that's simply protection through safety in numbers or whether it's to gain power over others. 190 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:32,750 And so therefore, you know, if you can get people to join your cause and sign up with a diaspora T-shirt waves the diaspora flags and their money, 191 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:37,520 and then, you know, more power to you, go ahead and do that. 192 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:44,629 That's all any political project ever is that that would be one sort of end of the political spectrum. 193 00:19:44,630 --> 00:19:50,660 And then at the other end, you know, from another perspective would be would be saying it's a question of how 194 00:19:50,660 --> 00:19:56,000 strongly are we committed to the principles of the modern international system, 195 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:02,720 and particularly the sort of liberal international world order that's been in place, particularly since World War Two. 196 00:20:03,770 --> 00:20:09,800 Clearly, some of those principles exist for very good reasons, but some of them might be kind of outdated, 197 00:20:10,370 --> 00:20:19,430 like the idea of one territory, one power, which has been in place since the Treaties of Westphalia, the beginning of the modern period, 198 00:20:19,910 --> 00:20:26,299 you know, hundreds of years ago, don't really make a lot of sense in the age of the Internet when, you know, 199 00:20:26,300 --> 00:20:33,950 a lot of geopolitical contestation is taking place, not in real space, in real territory, but in cyberspace. 200 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:41,899 So it might be the case that, you know, we're committed to some principles of the modern international system. 201 00:20:41,900 --> 00:20:46,700 We need to be careful about some aspects of diaspora and. 202 00:20:46,900 --> 00:20:51,430 Judgement and the extraterritorial interference that it might involve, 203 00:20:51,700 --> 00:20:58,629 but that other aspects of it are really to be welcomed and that the modern international system needs some updating in 204 00:20:58,630 --> 00:21:04,780 order to account for the fact that people around the world are just much more connected than they ever were before. 205 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:13,900 As a fascinating answer, Alan, thanks. So so MARTIN Let me, I suppose, to wrap up with a question for you, 206 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:22,630 which is what should the end point or end point of diaspora engagement be if such a thing is possible? 207 00:21:24,770 --> 00:21:28,190 It's a loaded question to end on, Robert. It's a little. Yeah. 208 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:34,300 Look, I think out of the LA that have kind of signal points of it. Look, I think that to unpack a couple of Alan's key points. 209 00:21:34,310 --> 00:21:38,360 Look, I think the entry point is critical in terms of deciding where the end game is going to be. 210 00:21:38,360 --> 00:21:44,030 And I think, you know, sometimes we forget to take a little bit of a pause button and look at the world around us sometimes. 211 00:21:44,060 --> 00:21:48,980 You know, I don't think we're going to a place where we're living in a world of an incredible pace of change. 212 00:21:48,980 --> 00:21:52,430 And you see that not just in an industry and different non-scripted. 213 00:21:52,430 --> 00:21:56,930 You see a geopolitically. You just have to look at the news of the last couple of weeks to get a handle on this. 214 00:21:56,930 --> 00:22:01,309 And I think what really captured me about this episode of the podcast is, 215 00:22:01,310 --> 00:22:08,389 is the word powerful in the title and sometimes where we're a bit naive to not think about the power of diasporic communities. 216 00:22:08,390 --> 00:22:16,010 And I think that's what that's what's really capturing the attention of a lot of governments or connotations of power have long evolved from, 217 00:22:16,010 --> 00:22:20,330 from hard power to soft power to smart power. You know, and you mentioned the word connect in the cell. 218 00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:23,059 And I think towards the end of your previous answer, you know, 219 00:22:23,060 --> 00:22:27,470 and Professor Anne-Marie Slaughter, when you begin to think through power in the networked age, 220 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:33,170 you know, her great line that's essentially to paraphrase is that the measure of power is connectedness in the networked age. 221 00:22:33,590 --> 00:22:37,730 And when you begin to look at what the diaspora communities can bring in terms of connectedness, 222 00:22:38,150 --> 00:22:42,080 there's there's probably very few other global constituencies there that that have the reach. 223 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,210 And that is that's because the numbers don't lie. 224 00:22:44,630 --> 00:22:49,820 I mean, going back to the the mundane but important issue of definition, then immigrants and their descendants, 225 00:22:50,210 --> 00:22:54,200 you know, we talk we talk I think in 1990 there was 150 million migrants in the world. 226 00:22:54,200 --> 00:23:02,629 Today it is 282. You put in the word descendants on top of that growth and you're talking about a pretty powerful size of community globally. 227 00:23:02,630 --> 00:23:07,920 You know, and I think what's important as well in terms of what the end game should be coming back to revisit this points is, 228 00:23:08,250 --> 00:23:12,290 you know, it's really important to understand what you're trying to achieve within your diaspora engagement, 229 00:23:12,380 --> 00:23:17,360 you know, the diaspora that way to engage for humanitarian level to the networks of affluence and influence that I didn't talked about. 230 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:23,810 They're fundamentally different diasporas and they need different approaches and they need different skills and techniques to engage with them. 231 00:23:24,260 --> 00:23:26,540 So, I mean, look, there's been some flagship successes. 232 00:23:26,540 --> 00:23:31,790 I mean, to kind of give you some, I suppose, key in the field insights that have been guiding this, 233 00:23:31,790 --> 00:23:38,599 we talk a lot about diaspora capital in terms of cultural capital, economic capital, human capital and social capital primarily. 234 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,440 I think it's economic capital, as I mentioned, for a lot of country of origin governments. 235 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:47,210 You know, you look at projects like the U.S. aid project in Bosnia and Herzegovina, which is diaspora invests, 236 00:23:47,750 --> 00:23:51,889 where no getting to the stage, where we have the evidence to back up what we're talking about. 237 00:23:51,890 --> 00:23:58,600 So that was, you know, the first phase of that project, for example, was a $6 million commitment by U.S. aid generate generated 28 million investment, 238 00:23:58,610 --> 00:24:03,979 created 2000 jobs in about 150 minutes of challenges across the country and in the region. 239 00:24:03,980 --> 00:24:07,730 So we have the evidence base now. So what it should do and where it should go. 240 00:24:08,150 --> 00:24:14,209 One thing I would say, particularly for entry point, this country of country of origin government, I'm a big believer in the old adage of life. 241 00:24:14,210 --> 00:24:16,430 The more that you give, the more you get, you know, 242 00:24:16,430 --> 00:24:21,290 So but diaspora engagement policy should be to begin with is to give to the diaspora communities abroad. 243 00:24:21,290 --> 00:24:23,239 I think a lot of governments have that blind spot. 244 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:27,170 They look at the potential return because of the big numbers, remittances, everything that attracts us. 245 00:24:27,650 --> 00:24:32,510 But I think you have to look at our sense of, you know, take and adapt that we at JFK quote, 246 00:24:32,510 --> 00:24:35,570 ask not what your diaspora can do for you, but what you can do for your diaspora. 247 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:39,830 Begin there. Source that balance between giving to the diaspora before expecting to get. 248 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:44,180 But then it's about being incredibly intentional about how you engaging for humanitarian purposes. 249 00:24:44,180 --> 00:24:50,149 Are you engaging for economic development, philanthropic purposes, skills transfer and give you a kind of a tagline to close? 250 00:24:50,150 --> 00:24:54,590 I see a diasporas of time, talent and treasure, the all the different approaches, 251 00:24:54,590 --> 00:25:01,250 and that's where I think most policies probably do go tried to go, but whether they achieve impact or not is open to debate. 252 00:25:01,790 --> 00:25:05,720 Well, I think that time, talent and treasure seems like a perfect place to wrap up. 253 00:25:06,170 --> 00:25:11,959 So Alan, Larissa and Martin, thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me today. 254 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,200 It's been a fascinating conversation. So yeah, thank you very much. 255 00:25:15,230 --> 00:25:20,540 Thanks, Rob. Thanks. Seriously, Martin Thanks for you've been listening to the Migration Oxford podcast. 256 00:25:20,540 --> 00:25:22,580 I'm Robert Neill. And I'm Jackie Broadhead.