1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:05,520 Hello and welcome to the Migration Oxford Podcast. I'm Jackie Broadhead and I'm Rob McNeill. 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:10,800 Rob. Today we have a great subject. Asymmetrical sympathies. 3 00:00:10,950 --> 00:00:16,590 When it comes to refugees and migrants, what do we mean by asymmetrical sympathies? 4 00:00:17,310 --> 00:00:23,580 So the basic gist of this is that people are welcoming to some groups and lots of welcoming to other groups. 5 00:00:23,580 --> 00:00:32,670 Um, and it's a sort of exploration of why that is and what are the factors that shape our willingness to say, please come, 6 00:00:32,670 --> 00:00:38,610 we're going to help you to some groups of people and then say, no, no, no, no, no, you're a problem to other groups of people. 7 00:00:39,060 --> 00:00:45,420 Um, which obviously we've seen play out quite a lot in the UK media and policy debate in the last few years. 8 00:00:45,420 --> 00:00:51,209 Um, incredible, welcoming, incredible openness rather to people coming from Ukraine, 9 00:00:51,210 --> 00:00:54,540 from Hong Kong, fleeing really problematic scenarios in both places. 10 00:00:54,900 --> 00:01:00,000 But then this very, very uncomfortable scenario with people arriving, for example, on small boats. 11 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:06,240 Um, and certainly not much welcoming, uh, for people who are considered to be making the migrants. 12 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:11,510 And we're talking here about public opinion and about policy. 13 00:01:11,810 --> 00:01:17,730 But I also wondered, with your huge experience in journalism and working with the media, 14 00:01:17,780 --> 00:01:22,880 it feels like they have a huge role to play in how those asymmetries play out. 15 00:01:22,910 --> 00:01:29,330 What were your thoughts about that? Well, I think it's really important to understand that the kind of relationship between public attitudes, 16 00:01:29,330 --> 00:01:33,870 policymaking and media are like they influence one another. 17 00:01:33,990 --> 00:01:39,980 They will shape the way that each other function. And some of the things, some of the stories. 18 00:01:40,010 --> 00:01:44,389 And I think this is we hear about this in the discussion a little bit more clearly, 19 00:01:44,390 --> 00:01:49,850 but some of the stories that we hear about people that deserving this or non deserving this, 20 00:01:50,390 --> 00:01:57,500 um, are really very, very similar to the sort of stories that we've been told since time began, about one group or another turning up. 21 00:01:57,500 --> 00:02:00,709 And I use this when I lecture on migration media. 22 00:02:00,710 --> 00:02:05,030 And this is one of the cool points that I come back to the same sets of stories, 23 00:02:05,030 --> 00:02:10,600 the idea of the US and the Z in group, and that the ideas of, you know, 24 00:02:10,610 --> 00:02:14,870 like land rights and territorial ownership of the idea of, you know, 25 00:02:15,110 --> 00:02:21,290 of a distant and exciting place rather than and that the ordinariness of home or whatever. 26 00:02:21,530 --> 00:02:28,909 These all shaped the way that we see different places, and particularly the structures that are in place relating to global economics. 27 00:02:28,910 --> 00:02:31,760 You know, a place that is poor that people want to escape from. 28 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:36,680 This is a place that is rich, that people want to get into, tells us a lot about what's going to happen, 29 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:41,720 that, you know, people can be open and welcoming to be able to be maybe leaving those places. 30 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:47,330 But it's very it's very much not the only story because these are issues that are 31 00:02:47,330 --> 00:02:52,670 commonly related to race and culture and colonial activities and all that kind of stuff. 32 00:02:52,670 --> 00:02:58,670 So this is stuff that we've discussed in this, in this, in this podcast, which I think is super interesting. 33 00:02:59,690 --> 00:03:04,240 Do you think the tale sometimes bugs the dog in terms of the media role? 34 00:03:04,250 --> 00:03:09,260 You know, I guess the media would say that they're reflecting back what the public think. 35 00:03:09,590 --> 00:03:13,970 Do you think they have a role in creating that reality, or are they simply reflecting it? 36 00:03:14,420 --> 00:03:19,069 Well, I think it's important to remember that there isn't such a thing as the media, as one functioning body. 37 00:03:19,070 --> 00:03:23,870 There's lots of different components of any and any media environment in any country. 38 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:31,040 There are inevitably scenarios, I think, where public attitudes are shaped to some extent by stories that they read, 39 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,130 but those stories that they really are shaped by often policymaking, 40 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:38,450 which is then in itself shaped by the way that the public are responding to things 41 00:03:38,450 --> 00:03:42,109 on the doorstep in the way that therefore politicians are deciding to do things. 42 00:03:42,110 --> 00:03:47,959 So it's really, really hard to unpick causality in these sorts of situations. 43 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,620 And I think that we can really go back again to this kind of historical scenario. 44 00:03:51,630 --> 00:03:56,680 I mean, you can go back all the way to biblical times and the stories about these kind of losses and that is, 45 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:03,110 you know, um, and before and even beyond that and still see the same sorts of stories coming out. 46 00:04:03,380 --> 00:04:08,600 It's not it's not about necessarily kind of an evil media behemoth making people think evil things. 47 00:04:08,990 --> 00:04:15,830 It's it's a much more complex scenario where people respond in complex ways to difficult situations. 48 00:04:15,830 --> 00:04:20,300 They're accused sometimes that can stimulate them to behave in particular ways. 49 00:04:20,450 --> 00:04:24,380 But it's not just media that can trigger those that can trigger those responses. 50 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:29,270 And media is often reflecting back. It's sometimes is stimulating. 51 00:04:29,570 --> 00:04:38,210 It's a complex place. It's a complex scenario. And I think that it's more about society's broader relations with in groups and groups, 52 00:04:38,570 --> 00:04:44,120 and why media organisations can play a role in shaping attitudes to the different groups might have. 53 00:04:45,210 --> 00:04:46,360 Yeah, I think that's a good point. 54 00:04:46,380 --> 00:04:55,670 And I was also interested in that academic and research perspective and how much academic research shapes some of these discussions. 55 00:04:55,680 --> 00:05:04,250 You know, sometimes migration studies as a kid has been accused of being dislocated from, um, studies of race, 56 00:05:04,270 --> 00:05:13,080 racism or also from questions of foreign policy or being a little bit, er, historical and kind of flattening out some of that complexity. 57 00:05:13,110 --> 00:05:22,680 Do you think that there is a kind of role in academic research for bringing in some of these other factors, 58 00:05:22,830 --> 00:05:29,130 rather than kind of just solely thinking about migration as if it were, um, slightly divorced from some of these other areas. 59 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:36,660 Well, I think the idea that migration certainly began in 2001 or something like that is clearly preposterous, 60 00:05:37,140 --> 00:05:42,210 and it's something that means that we have to situate these things historically. 61 00:05:42,450 --> 00:05:47,880 And the reasons, the factors that shift, why people are moving, why people are in the places they were in in the first place. 62 00:05:48,330 --> 00:05:54,750 Um, you know, what the geopolitics are that are leading to certain people in certain scenarios where people have to leave. 63 00:05:55,140 --> 00:05:59,190 These are all things that are situated within history and in particular. 64 00:05:59,220 --> 00:06:02,010 So one of the people that was speaking today, Professor Bridget Anderson, 65 00:06:02,010 --> 00:06:09,720 has done a lot of work looking at the kind of historical origins of migration control of the US and then the politics of immigration control. 66 00:06:10,140 --> 00:06:17,940 Yeah, fundamentally, the X factor, even units of medieval England and the the issuing of the very first sort of identity documents, 67 00:06:18,300 --> 00:06:23,580 um, to, you know, to value baggage, to control their mobility around different parishes. 68 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:32,070 And it speaks to a kind of like the fact that we are consistently replicating things that have happened in the past, 69 00:06:32,310 --> 00:06:35,730 rather than necessarily doing something extraordinarily novel. 70 00:06:36,150 --> 00:06:43,260 Um, and this is not entirely surprising, because while society changes, the reality is that, you know, humans are still humans. 71 00:06:43,260 --> 00:06:45,899 We still live in communities. We still have our in groups. 72 00:06:45,900 --> 00:06:50,310 Um, and there are people outside of those that we may be concerned about or that we may want to help. 73 00:06:50,610 --> 00:06:55,470 And making decisions about those groups is something that is a constant challenge and has been throughout history. 74 00:06:56,070 --> 00:07:00,330 Thanks so much, Rob. Um, now for our conversation with Bridget and Isabelle. 75 00:07:00,870 --> 00:07:06,540 I'm joined today by Professor Presents and Director of Migration Mobilities Pursuit, and by Isabel. 76 00:07:06,540 --> 00:07:10,710 The menu is a student in development studies at the University of Oxford. 77 00:07:11,580 --> 00:07:14,610 So, Isabel, can I start by asking you, 78 00:07:14,700 --> 00:07:23,850 what do you think conditions people's openness to one group of people claiming asylum and their opposition, potentially to another group? 79 00:07:25,070 --> 00:07:29,059 Uh, well, thank you very much for this question and for having me on the podcast. 80 00:07:29,060 --> 00:07:34,610 And I think it's a fascinating question, and one that is actually at the heart of, of my DPhil research. 81 00:07:34,620 --> 00:07:42,859 Um, in that context, um, what I'm partly interested in is looking at the perceptions and the emotions that may be at play in, 82 00:07:42,860 --> 00:07:51,140 in varying, uh, responses to, to refugees, whether it's its openness or, uh, closure versus, you know, of a position. 83 00:07:51,740 --> 00:07:58,729 Um, so maybe just a first note, um, I think it's important to, to to clarify that perceptions are subjective. 84 00:07:58,730 --> 00:08:04,160 So they're made of biases, um, preferences, understandings of the world, um, 85 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:09,290 that people have, uh, which can be influenced by the media and political elites as well. 86 00:08:09,620 --> 00:08:13,879 Um, so maybe for the purposes of this conversation, there are many that we could discuss. 87 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:19,410 Uh, but I would like to raise two of them. Uh, one of them is deserving this and and undeserving this. 88 00:08:19,410 --> 00:08:23,780 So you may have heard about about that concept. Many people have talked about it in the literature. 89 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:33,169 And basically it's, um, it relates to this idea that some people can be perceived as worthy of protection, whereas others, uh, may be not. 90 00:08:33,170 --> 00:08:41,090 So, for instance, motivations for fleeing is often, um, a um, a concept that that is used to, 91 00:08:41,090 --> 00:08:46,190 to define whether people are just constructed as deserving or not. 92 00:08:46,190 --> 00:08:51,349 So, for instance, if people are understood to be forced to flee versus having economic motives, 93 00:08:51,350 --> 00:08:57,860 that will shape bit the response of whole societies to how they, you know, to their perceived deserving ness. 94 00:08:58,250 --> 00:09:03,379 Um, age and gender are also often, um, a factor. 95 00:09:03,380 --> 00:09:09,140 So, for instance, a woman and a child usually is considered as deserving of protection versus single men, 96 00:09:09,140 --> 00:09:12,770 which are more often understood as security threats and the like. 97 00:09:13,130 --> 00:09:18,560 Um, so that's one of the concepts that I think is important to, to reflect, uh, about. 98 00:09:18,560 --> 00:09:23,629 The other one is relatedness. Um, that's actually a concept that was used by Matthew. 99 00:09:23,630 --> 00:09:30,830 Give me to refer to the Kosovo, uh, response, I mean, the European response to Kosovar refugees in the, in 1999. 100 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:37,190 And basically it's whether people feel whether they have feelings of identification with the displaced. 101 00:09:37,190 --> 00:09:45,110 So often having individual stories will be more helpful than statistics because people relate more to individual stories and they do to, 102 00:09:45,110 --> 00:09:52,939 you know, to numbers. Um, and often it will also be shaped by ethnic, uh, or, you know, or historical features. 103 00:09:52,940 --> 00:09:55,940 So racial biases can, can play a role in that. 104 00:09:57,380 --> 00:10:00,230 Isabel. That's fantastic. Thank you very much. Um, Bridget. 105 00:10:00,470 --> 00:10:07,670 So your work has explored the idea that the hard migration policies tend to be about controlling the mobility of the poor. 106 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:13,850 Do you think that's key to this issue of this idea of people's asymmetrical sympathies? 107 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:20,270 Yes, I do, and I think in a way, kind of it speaks to what, um, Isabel was just saying, 108 00:10:20,270 --> 00:10:25,219 because I think if we think about the control of the mobility of the poor, 109 00:10:25,220 --> 00:10:34,220 then that necessarily brings in once again, these questions of deserving ness, um, which I would say have a long history. 110 00:10:34,460 --> 00:10:43,220 And actually we can see them reflected in ideas of the welfare state who's deserving of, um, of receiving welfare benefits. 111 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:50,150 Um, and, you know, and even the idea of the deserving poor, you know, that we talk with all of its kind of Victorian, 112 00:10:50,150 --> 00:10:57,860 um, ramifications, I think is helpful in thinking about attitudes to, uh, excuse me, about asylum and immigration. 113 00:10:57,860 --> 00:11:06,020 So, you know, neediness, victimhood, but also the, the benevolence of the, um, of the giver of the receiver, as it were. 114 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:13,670 Yeah. So I think our culture is deeply infused with ideas of deserving us rather than solidarity, 115 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:21,739 which also then leads to questions about fairness rather than justice, hierarchies and kind of competition. 116 00:11:21,740 --> 00:11:32,210 Who's more worthy than the next person. So I think that is one kind of set of concerns that connects the idea of the poor who's deserving, 117 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:37,220 deserving of welfare with similar ideas about immigration and asylum. 118 00:11:37,490 --> 00:11:44,629 And then the other, I think, is ideas of race and racism, the civilised and the uncivilised, 119 00:11:44,630 --> 00:11:51,620 which again, you know, historically, I think are bound up with, with poverty, um, with class. 120 00:11:52,010 --> 00:12:02,870 And today, you know, the global poor means the great mass of people who are from low income countries and these, uh, almost always people of colour. 121 00:12:03,970 --> 00:12:05,830 One of the things that I'm really interested in, 122 00:12:05,830 --> 00:12:14,799 this is the situation that happened back in 2015 time of 2014, 1516 and this point, particularly in Germany. 123 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:22,629 In Isabelle, I think you've done some work on, on, on Germany and this point that what is sometimes thought of as the Thea Schaffen 124 00:12:22,630 --> 00:12:27,190 Das moment where Germany threw itself behind the protection of refugees, 125 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:33,280 it feels like a really pivotal moment for Germany in particular. But it's also a really divisive point as well. 126 00:12:33,700 --> 00:12:40,359 So do you think that what, uh, Mary George, you and Rafael Zebrowski discussed the just so dubbed, 127 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:44,680 rather the ecstatic humanitarianism at that mid 2010 point, 128 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:50,170 which was then followed by this rapid shift towards securitisation with the Bataclan attacks and things like that. 129 00:12:50,500 --> 00:12:56,830 Do you think that shifted Europe's perspective on asylum seeking and asylum seekers fundamentally? 130 00:12:57,610 --> 00:12:59,499 That's a very, very good question. 131 00:12:59,500 --> 00:13:09,069 Um, so from analysing the case of Germany and why it's so fascinating is that we can see those kinds of two periods of time, 132 00:13:09,070 --> 00:13:17,590 one that is, uh, you know, with very positive and welcoming representations of refugees across the board, release of political elites. 133 00:13:17,770 --> 00:13:25,480 I mean, again, generally had, uh, positive discourses around the displaced, um, in public opinion and in the media as well. 134 00:13:25,900 --> 00:13:30,100 Um, and there was also, I think is also interesting is how the, you know, 135 00:13:30,100 --> 00:13:34,509 the perception or the understanding of the nation can also play a role in those contexts. 136 00:13:34,510 --> 00:13:40,690 So in the case of Germany, um, there were a lot of discourses around the nation almost redeeming itself for, 137 00:13:40,690 --> 00:13:46,090 um, welcoming refugees, which I think played a very interesting role. 138 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:55,389 Uh, but as you say and I mean, we can we can pinpoint that the kind of shift to January 2016, uh, you may remember, um, 139 00:13:55,390 --> 00:14:02,530 there were reports that Arab looking men, uh, including some seekers, had assaulted women in Cologne on New Year's Eve. 140 00:14:02,530 --> 00:14:10,149 And following that, there was a clear shift in in media representations of refugees and public opinion as well, 141 00:14:10,150 --> 00:14:12,790 and, and discourses of political elites. 142 00:14:13,150 --> 00:14:21,430 Um, but what research shows, and my work as well, is that the German public did not reject the idea of asylum in and of itself. 143 00:14:21,430 --> 00:14:26,620 It's more that it questioned whether those who were actually entering the country were worthy of that protection. 144 00:14:26,980 --> 00:14:30,940 So I think it gives, um, you know, new nuance to that. 145 00:14:31,300 --> 00:14:34,270 Um, so I'm not a European specialist. 146 00:14:34,270 --> 00:14:41,380 So, um, I may not be the best person to say whether, like, that's a fundamental shift or not, but I think that just the idea of, 147 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:48,040 you know, that it's more like whether the people where they are in front of us are disturbing, um, or not. 148 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:52,659 To me, that indicates that those perceptions are actually on a pendulum. 149 00:14:52,660 --> 00:14:58,860 So you may be more open or, uh, you know, societies can become more open or not, depending, uh, across time. 150 00:14:58,900 --> 00:15:05,950 I think that the example of Ukrainian refugees, um, um, recently also shows that, that it's, 151 00:15:06,340 --> 00:15:11,350 uh, so from my research, I would say this, that those moments of openness come and go. 152 00:15:11,350 --> 00:15:19,270 It's not that it's a fundamental shift, but I think then the question becomes, how can we make those responses more long lasting? 153 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,840 Um, and also more inclusive of all groups of refugees. 154 00:15:23,900 --> 00:15:29,270 That's a very interesting point, and a great point for me to jump on to my next question, which is for you, 155 00:15:29,570 --> 00:15:34,900 which is to do with the fact that obviously so millions of Ukrainians have moved to the EU and, 156 00:15:34,910 --> 00:15:39,560 and, and, you know, well over a hundred thousand to move to the UK following the Russian invasion. 157 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:47,479 But we haven't seen the sort of backlash that we saw towards flows of people moving off the Syrian civil war or 158 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:53,150 indeed towards people crossing over the channel or the Mediterranean in small boats in considerably smaller numbers. 159 00:15:53,900 --> 00:16:01,940 Now, is this because we perceive Ukrainians to be part of what you've described is as part of a larger community of values? 160 00:16:02,810 --> 00:16:08,840 Well, I think community value is a very elastic term as, as Isabel's intimated. 161 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:16,459 So, um, yes. On the one hand, you know, it's, uh, Ukrainians are perceived to be, you know, 162 00:16:16,460 --> 00:16:22,250 Christians and in inverted commas, like us, which includes not being used to war. 163 00:16:22,910 --> 00:16:28,729 Um, and therefore, um, uh, yeah, sharing certain certain values. 164 00:16:28,730 --> 00:16:29,420 But I think so. 165 00:16:29,420 --> 00:16:38,420 The danger of it is, is that when we talk about community of values and like us, you know, we're not just talking about queuing, you know, 166 00:16:38,420 --> 00:16:52,280 actually there is a racist dimension to that that can get hidden by talking about culture or talking about similarity or talking about closeness. 167 00:16:52,550 --> 00:16:59,750 And I think more generally, this is, uh, a challenge to both migration and refugee studies that, 168 00:16:59,750 --> 00:17:05,390 uh, questions of race and racism, uh, both there and not there. 169 00:17:05,690 --> 00:17:15,049 You know, it's the great unsaid. Um, so I think thinking about how the community of value is actually kind of proposing, 170 00:17:15,050 --> 00:17:19,940 um, a certain kind of fantasy which is both racialized and classed, 171 00:17:20,540 --> 00:17:30,950 uh, I think is important if we want to kind of get to grips with, uh, the kind of responses to, uh, refugees and migrants more generally. 172 00:17:31,580 --> 00:17:34,540 Okay. So so this is then the question kind of for both of you. 173 00:17:34,550 --> 00:17:44,420 So do we think that this, this, this question of kind of the exclusion and inclusion thing, this idea of, of an asymmetry of sympathies. 174 00:17:44,690 --> 00:17:50,950 Do we think that this is something that is actually global, or is it something that sits more strongly within, you know, 175 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:58,640 the a culture of high income countries that feels that they have somehow or another, uh, rights to exclude others? 176 00:17:59,180 --> 00:18:03,100 And, and do you think that there is a way of changing this? 177 00:18:03,110 --> 00:18:10,579 Is there a way of creating a situation which is more inclusive, um, structurally, globally? 178 00:18:10,580 --> 00:18:14,240 Um, generally, what do we saw with you again, uh, Bridget on that. 179 00:18:15,020 --> 00:18:21,319 So I think it's important that we distinguish between state responses and people to people responses and don't 180 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:28,760 necessarily think that what we see reflected when when states say they're acting in the name of the popular. 181 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:31,610 Well, you know, that isn't necessarily the popular. 182 00:18:31,610 --> 00:18:40,399 Well, um, and, uh, and I say that not because I think that people are, uh, you know, immune to, um, 183 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:47,060 to the influences of government and media, but just that we can't we can't simply equate them. 184 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:53,569 Um, and actually, quite often I think that, um, responses to, you know, 185 00:18:53,570 --> 00:19:00,080 I would say responses to Ukrainians and responses in the British case to Hong Kong is also deeply shaped by, 186 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:09,200 you know, our own government's foreign policy interests and agenda, which then affects how these issues are portrayed in, in the media. 187 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:19,490 Um, so and I think once we once we start realising that immigration and asylum are not standalone issues, 188 00:19:19,910 --> 00:19:25,670 you know, they're connected to global politics, they're connected to, uh, global economics. 189 00:19:26,090 --> 00:19:29,120 Um, and they also have long histories. 190 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:35,600 I think that helps kind of perhaps open up some space for, um, different approaches, 191 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:41,330 but also recognising when there are also different approaches that pass unseen under the radar. 192 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:46,520 Um, and I think in terms of your question about, you know, 193 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:54,020 is this something European or sort of to do with the wealthy countries in and on the one hand, yes. 194 00:19:54,020 --> 00:20:01,669 You know, wealthy countries might feel that they have more to lose, um, or might be able to present that there is more to lose. 195 00:20:01,670 --> 00:20:14,389 But also, I think we have to recognise that ideas of race and racism have been rolled out all over the globe, um, in part through imperial history. 196 00:20:14,390 --> 00:20:23,300 So yes, Europe and uh, Europe has a there's a big responsibility there, but also that they built on um, other. 197 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,340 Ways of excluding and hierarchy sizing people. 198 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:35,340 So I've been doing some work recently looking at the, um, terrible treatment of Rohingya people and its historical roots, 199 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:44,969 and how it was that actually ideas of race, uh, and nation grafted so well into the, 200 00:20:44,970 --> 00:20:53,190 um, uh, pre imperial Burmese courts way of looking at the world, which was an elite way of looking at the world, 201 00:20:53,190 --> 00:20:57,660 which also hierarchies sized people, even if it didn't use race. 202 00:20:58,020 --> 00:21:10,140 So I think we have to recognise that race and racism is now a kind of global discourse, um, that it was, um, rolled out and globalised by imperialism, 203 00:21:10,350 --> 00:21:19,980 but also that there are multiple ways of making differences and inferiority and superiority between different kinds of people. 204 00:21:21,180 --> 00:21:27,470 Which brings us to the second part of that question, which perhaps is about you can give us some thoughts about is there a way through this? 205 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:31,889 Is there a way of improving the situation? Um, thank you for this question. 206 00:21:31,890 --> 00:21:36,870 And I think my ideas on this are, uh, quite similar to what Bridget was saying. 207 00:21:36,870 --> 00:21:45,740 And, uh, it's that I think we can all play a role in nurturing environments and understandings of the world that are more conducive to solidarity. 208 00:21:45,750 --> 00:21:49,889 So going back to the concept of relatedness that I spoke about earlier, 209 00:21:49,890 --> 00:21:57,360 I think there's work to be done to promote, um, understandings of our relatability to all groups of refugees. 210 00:21:57,360 --> 00:22:05,309 And I think that, um, that has a potential of, of challenge challenging racism that Bridget has talked about. 211 00:22:05,310 --> 00:22:10,560 And I think it is key in those dynamics. So, um, that that's one point. 212 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:18,390 And then the other one is I think we need also more education on the ways in which societies in the global north often play a role, 213 00:22:18,420 --> 00:22:23,550 um, or have some level of responsibility in the trajectories of people who are displaced. 214 00:22:23,940 --> 00:22:33,860 Um, so, um, I think that connects also to what Bridget was saying, um, you know, that solidarity and justice are often not key understandings of, 215 00:22:33,870 --> 00:22:40,020 you know, or are not often, uh, mobilised in situations of open openness to refugees. 216 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:50,610 Uh, and there's a reason to that, um, in my own work, um, I've seen that, you know, big mobilising ideas that that societies have a role to, 217 00:22:50,790 --> 00:22:57,779 you know, are implicated in those situations, kind of challenges their the virtue of their host for receiving refugees. 218 00:22:57,780 --> 00:23:01,859 So it's kind of a different it comes from a different part from a, you know, 219 00:23:01,860 --> 00:23:10,499 it's more grounded in justice and solidarity versus virtue for, um, for, for receiving refugees. 220 00:23:10,500 --> 00:23:17,340 But I think that challenging those, uh, perceptions and I think can can go a long way in, 221 00:23:17,340 --> 00:23:21,360 um, you know, creating more openness to, to all groups of refugees. 222 00:23:21,660 --> 00:23:28,620 Of course, that's not something that is easy to do, but going back to to what Bridget was saying about elite and society dynamics, 223 00:23:28,620 --> 00:23:34,260 I think that we can all have a role in this and that, um, if, you know, 224 00:23:34,350 --> 00:23:37,979 researchers, universities, uh, civil society organisations, 225 00:23:37,980 --> 00:23:45,780 I think all have a role to play in kind of nurturing representations that may be more, um, that may be more grounded in solidarity. 226 00:23:45,780 --> 00:23:53,040 And as a result, that can also have an impact on on the policies that that governments make and hopefully kind of, 227 00:23:53,580 --> 00:23:58,870 you know, maybe not, um, that can at least challenge somewhat, uh, 228 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:04,680 the asymmetrical sympathies that we often witness and hopefully be more how is show more 229 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:09,120 solidarity to to all groups of people and all refugee crises that we see around the world? 230 00:24:10,290 --> 00:24:15,359 Can I ask a question? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Can I ask is a valid question because I think that's really interesting. 231 00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:23,100 But I wonder whether what do you think about the kind of the more foundational distinction between the refugee and the migrants? 232 00:24:23,340 --> 00:24:30,510 I mean, you're talking about refugees, but do you think that that really applies to migrants more generally? 233 00:24:30,510 --> 00:24:37,079 Because I would say that there's, you know, the distinction between the refugee and the migrant and the refugee is basically 234 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:42,510 being the more deserving than the economic migrant is itself a problem. 235 00:24:42,510 --> 00:24:47,760 So that you're all that if you only talk about refugees, 236 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:55,140 then the risk is that then you're still creating this kind of undeserving subordinate group, which is economic migrants. 237 00:24:56,610 --> 00:25:04,679 That's you. Absolutely right. Absolutely right. Um, and I think I was using the term refugee really like, as a broad concept. 238 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:11,819 That is and I think we also need to challenge and going back to the idea of deserving this, and I as I was saying, you know, 239 00:25:11,820 --> 00:25:21,360 usually people who are considered as forced to flee will be those, you know, who who we usually understand as refugees versus economic motives. 240 00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:31,770 So I think that challenging that as well, and that there are different grounds for needing to flee and, and mobilising stories of people for, 241 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:41,970 you know, so that people understand why they may be, uh, why they, they may need to, to, to leave their countries behind. 242 00:25:41,970 --> 00:25:49,830 And I think that can that can help and in promoting understandings are more open to different narratives of migration. 243 00:25:50,430 --> 00:25:53,459 Um, clearly that's not something that is that is easy to do. 244 00:25:53,460 --> 00:25:56,520 But I think that's also something that's important to to challenge. 245 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:58,370 But it is important. 246 00:25:58,380 --> 00:26:07,650 And we're raising some fundamental questions about how we imagine global mobilities generally and the use of terminology like refugee or migrant, 247 00:26:08,220 --> 00:26:13,290 uh, two defined in ways that, that mean that we have particular understandings of what they mean. 248 00:26:13,290 --> 00:26:17,760 And that in itself generates particular legal policy responses. 249 00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:22,950 Um, and I think that, I mean, we can look at this going back through time a little bit as well. 250 00:26:22,950 --> 00:26:29,159 Which brings me again, neatly to the question that I was going to ask Bridget, because, Bridget, you've done a lot of work in the past. 251 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:33,950 Um. You know how the past can illuminate the present. 252 00:26:34,220 --> 00:26:40,750 So, I mean, just to kind of wrap this up, I wanted to know what you thought about the idea that or what you thought of, 253 00:26:40,750 --> 00:26:50,990 of how the current era, in terms of openness to people fleeing disasters and persecution, um, actually compares to scenarios in the past. 254 00:26:51,260 --> 00:26:56,100 Is it a better time to be seeking refuge in globally than it was, or is it worse? 255 00:26:56,120 --> 00:27:00,260 I don't know. Uh, well, I don't know the answer to that question either. 256 00:27:00,770 --> 00:27:06,079 But I would say, um, and and this actually goes back to again what Isabelle was saying. 257 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:12,200 So for me, it's been great to have this, um, conversation, but, um, so firstly, 258 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:17,839 again, I would distinguish between policy and practice, between elites and um, 259 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:23,239 um, normal people as it were, but also the story that is told, you know, 260 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,950 the story that is told of ourselves, ourselves in inverted commas and the past. 261 00:27:28,340 --> 00:27:39,260 So, for example, uh, in Britain, you endlessly hear rolled out the shoe kono's as the example of, you know, how open that we've been, you know. 262 00:27:39,260 --> 00:27:45,799 Well, this you can those were, you know, highly skilled, um, weavers that actually were, 263 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:51,020 you know, fulfilled a very useful function in, uh, English society at the time. 264 00:27:51,350 --> 00:28:00,470 We hear much less about the so called poor, poor Palestine's who were, um, poor people from Germany who are what's now Germany, 265 00:28:00,650 --> 00:28:06,889 who were fleeing poverty and, um, and oppression in the early 18th century, 266 00:28:06,890 --> 00:28:15,530 1709, I think it was, um, and who came to London in their thousands and who were accused of taking jobs, 267 00:28:15,740 --> 00:28:20,450 lowering wages, bringing crime, all this kind of familiar stuff. 268 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:30,440 So, um, in some ways, I think the stories that we tell each other about migrants are really distressingly old, 269 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:36,980 and we need to really move on from them. And on that note, uh, that slightly depressing note. 270 00:28:37,910 --> 00:28:42,530 Uh, I'm going to say thank you very much indeed to Professor Bridget Anderson and Isabella Levey. 271 00:28:42,530 --> 00:28:48,380 Thank you so much. Thanks, Rob. You're welcome. You've been listening to the Migration Oxford podcast. 272 00:28:48,410 --> 00:28:50,540 I'm Robert. And I'm Jackie Brodhead.