1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,050 [Auto-generated transcript. Edits may have been applied for clarity.] Hello and welcome to the Migration Oxford podcast on Rob McNeil. 2 00:00:04,170 --> 00:00:08,820 And I'm Jackie Brodhead. I'm Jackie. Today we're talking about people on the move in Mexico. 3 00:00:09,570 --> 00:00:16,560 I want to ask you a really probably stupid and possibly basic question, but why does Mexico matter so much? 4 00:00:17,460 --> 00:00:23,220 Yeah. Thanks, Rob. One of the things that we discussed is Mexico. 5 00:00:23,250 --> 00:00:33,360 Maybe unfairly in our imagination, we often think of it as a country of origin, you know, a place where migrants come from often to the US. 6 00:00:33,390 --> 00:00:38,910 I guess that's probably because of how much U.S. politics kind of dominates a lot of what we talk about in migration. 7 00:00:39,270 --> 00:00:44,429 But actually, Mexico is increasingly it is a place of transit from all over Latin America, 8 00:00:44,430 --> 00:00:52,169 but it's also a place of destination for migrants, often unplanned destination when their migration jetties are stopped. 9 00:00:52,170 --> 00:00:58,800 And so Mexico becomes this place that has all different types of migration, all happening at the same time, 10 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:08,670 and is a country in a space that is having to manage the politics of migration happening in another state, namely the US. 11 00:01:09,030 --> 00:01:14,519 Uh, but also manage the politics of migration within its whole continent as well as within its country. 12 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:21,180 So I think, you know, we talk about countries of immigration and countries of immigration. 13 00:01:21,420 --> 00:01:26,760 I think Mexico's a really interesting country to talk about because it has all of the above happening at the same time. 14 00:01:27,210 --> 00:01:35,790 We don't think as often as we should about what it means to be in that position and how migration is understood by migrants themselves, 15 00:01:35,790 --> 00:01:38,190 but also by people living in Mexico. 16 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:45,390 One of the other things that was raised is the idea that the southern border of the US is not just a border between the US and Mexico, 17 00:01:45,390 --> 00:01:48,600 but is a border essentially between the global North and the global South, 18 00:01:48,900 --> 00:01:55,080 between essentially power and those kind of who are to some extent held back. 19 00:01:55,350 --> 00:02:06,690 So how how much do you think that combination of the really fundamental economic disparities that we see playing out in the space of Mexico, 20 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:14,040 and also the symbolic nature of that border? How much do you think that those really matter in modern global debates about migration? 21 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:18,749 It's a really interesting idea, isn't it? For more of our speakers, um, that you'll hear shortly, 22 00:02:18,750 --> 00:02:30,030 and I think it does highlight one of the crucial underlying themes of nearly all of our conversations on migration, I think, which is inequality. 23 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:34,260 And I think what's really interesting is to like foreground inequality, 24 00:02:34,260 --> 00:02:39,750 rather than having it as this sort of background, sort of simmering issue that's there all of the time. 25 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:45,990 I think our speaker also talks about it as a, as a, a border, um, in terms of racism as well. 26 00:02:46,350 --> 00:02:53,370 And obviously that's something that we speak to much more commonly when we think about ideas of migration and resistance to migration in particular. 27 00:02:53,850 --> 00:03:03,990 I think that it's a useful way of seeing how inequality drives and shapes migration. 28 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:11,660 I think I'd like to think a bit more about how useful it is as a unit of analysis. 29 00:03:11,670 --> 00:03:19,020 We're still grappling with is global North and global South the best way to kind of divide things up on my thinking about migration? 30 00:03:19,170 --> 00:03:22,860 But I think in this context it does give us a different perspective. 31 00:03:22,860 --> 00:03:28,380 Rather than just thinking about this issue as a border between two nation states. 32 00:03:28,650 --> 00:03:35,730 Actually, we're thinking about it through that prism of inequality, and that seems like a good point to move to a really interesting conversation. 33 00:03:36,630 --> 00:03:44,640 I'm joined now by April Rios Rivera, doctoral researcher in migration studies here at the University of Oxford and an international 34 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:49,260 consultant on forced displacement and refugee well-being in East Africa at the world Bank, 35 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:51,420 and also by Maria Lina Hernandez, 36 00:03:51,420 --> 00:03:59,280 regional protection coordinator at the Danish Refugee Council and graduate from the MSC in International Human Rights Law, also here at Oxford. 37 00:03:59,910 --> 00:04:02,040 And finally by Moretti Sara Luna, 38 00:04:02,250 --> 00:04:08,520 an independent researcher focusing on migration and protection in the Americas and a fellow at Georgetown University. 39 00:04:08,910 --> 00:04:16,710 Hello to everyone. Um, I will start with you when I thinking about people on the move in Mexico, our topic for today, 40 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:25,080 we're thinking both about a country of origin, a place of transit, and often an unplanned destination for many migrants. 41 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:31,080 How would you characterise mobility to and from Mexico, and how has this changed over time? 42 00:04:31,740 --> 00:04:40,860 So I'll give a bit of context in that in the last few decades, the landscape of migration in the Americas have undergone rapid changes, 43 00:04:40,860 --> 00:04:46,710 not only in migrants profiles, but also in mobility patterns and in migration and asylum governance. 44 00:04:47,130 --> 00:04:54,870 So mobility from the south to the north, so from Latin American countries to countries like the US and Canada continues. 45 00:04:55,230 --> 00:04:59,790 But Latin America and the Caribbean has become largely a space of inter-regional. 46 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:06,160 People leave due to different reasons. Operation and conflict between criminal groups. 47 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:12,459 But policies against crime and drugs as well. And socio economic and environmental deterioration. 48 00:05:12,460 --> 00:05:18,430 That all has led thousands of Latin Americans and Caribbeans to seek safety in better conditions abroad. 49 00:05:18,850 --> 00:05:23,710 Within Latin America, Mexico has become a so-called mixed migration hub. 50 00:05:24,370 --> 00:05:28,660 Thousands of people temporarily settle and permanently transit. 51 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:34,240 So for some migrants, Mexico represents the last country before reaching the north. 52 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:39,549 It symbolises the ante room of the so-called American dream and, for others, 53 00:05:39,550 --> 00:05:45,430 its restrictive migration policies, its geography have created a vertical border. 54 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:49,170 It is filled with obstacles that limit migrants agency. 55 00:05:49,180 --> 00:05:54,550 It leads them to involuntary immobility, insecurity and lack of protection. 56 00:05:54,910 --> 00:06:01,360 So for decades, migration issues in Mexico have mainly focussed on on the country as a space of origin. 57 00:06:01,900 --> 00:06:05,440 That is, Mexicans out migrating to countries like the US. 58 00:06:05,830 --> 00:06:13,150 Uh, but Mexico is also a space of transit, more prominently since the 80s with the civilian workers in, in, in Central America. 59 00:06:13,510 --> 00:06:18,880 But Mexico is also a space of settlement, a space of immigration, of return migration. 60 00:06:19,180 --> 00:06:25,480 We are likely to see more of that, um, in the coming years as as Trump returns to power. 61 00:06:25,870 --> 00:06:29,650 Um, also space of internal displacement and transit migration. 62 00:06:29,980 --> 00:06:35,770 But the contemporary role of Mexico as an unplanned destination for many forcibly displaced people, 63 00:06:36,070 --> 00:06:43,900 largely in response to US border externalisation practices that are implemented mostly by Mexican authorities. 64 00:06:44,260 --> 00:06:47,110 So you see, very broadly and quickly, 65 00:06:47,110 --> 00:06:54,430 there are three broad factors that have transformed Mexico into space of unplanned settlement for forcibly displaced migrants. 66 00:06:54,940 --> 00:06:59,140 One of them is what I call and others as well the asylum trap. 67 00:06:59,650 --> 00:07:09,250 So refugee status has been used as a de facto transit permit in Mexico, and it is one of the only way to secure legal status in Mexico. 68 00:07:09,250 --> 00:07:13,840 But applying for asylum in Mexico requires the applicant to stay in the state. 69 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:18,070 Um, where they they started. They file their asylum claim. 70 00:07:18,430 --> 00:07:29,950 They have to remain in states like Chiapas, uh, especially in the city of Tapachula, bordering with the mala, until they acquire, uh, a status, um. 71 00:07:29,950 --> 00:07:31,540 Upon applying for asylum, 72 00:07:31,540 --> 00:07:38,710 the migration authorities are required to provide the migratory documentation that allows migrants to move freely in the country, 73 00:07:39,010 --> 00:07:48,670 but also to access services and jobs. But last year, in 2024, the national migration needs to reduce the issuance of of cards, 74 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:54,070 claiming that migrants have been using these cards that they are provided upon applying for asylum, 75 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:59,350 uh, because they are arguing that they are using them as transit documentation. 76 00:07:59,650 --> 00:08:07,420 Another important factor is the securitisation of the Mexican territory, uh, through its military. 77 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:14,170 Uh, um, in the country, there are many cases of migrants reporting that they have been detained, 78 00:08:14,170 --> 00:08:19,180 even when possessing a document that allows their mobility throughout the country. 79 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:26,290 So we have an asylum trap, and we have contention policies that limit migrants mobility in Mexico, 80 00:08:27,130 --> 00:08:33,100 some migrants to make it to Mexico City or northern, uh, states and cities like Tijuana, 81 00:08:33,100 --> 00:08:43,959 or other places where they don't only wait for migration documentation in Mexico, they also wait for access into the into the US until, 82 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:55,840 um, until January this year when Trump took power, uh, back in in the US, migrants seeking asylum in the US were using CBP. 83 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,300 One application our phone app. 84 00:08:58,660 --> 00:09:07,630 Through this app, migrants were able to request applications to ask for asylum in the US, but waiting for that application took months. 85 00:09:07,930 --> 00:09:12,430 So that's another factor that half retain migrants in Mexico. 86 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:19,270 So it is a waiting space that has transformed the country into a space of unplanned destination. 87 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,260 Thanks so much, April Mara. 88 00:09:22,420 --> 00:09:30,730 April's, talk to us a little bit about how profoundly impacted Mexican migration governance is by what's happening in the US. 89 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:35,170 I know that there were some quite significant changes under the Biden administration 90 00:09:35,170 --> 00:09:40,239 in June of 2024 that that significantly kind of changed rights to asylum. 91 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:48,370 But obviously, they're incredibly significant changes that are planned, including mass deportations under the Trump administration. 92 00:09:48,370 --> 00:09:52,570 And I wonder if you could just outline these developments on their impacts. 93 00:09:53,530 --> 00:09:59,350 We are speaking out. The U.S., I live here in California, which probably has the largest. 94 00:10:00,210 --> 00:10:05,890 Population outside of Mexico, together with Texas and what we see here. 95 00:10:05,910 --> 00:10:16,380 I want to speak out their long term situation so that the wider picture for those who are listening to this post podcast later in the year. 96 00:10:16,710 --> 00:10:24,090 Yesterday it was inauguration of Trump and he has already started to sign executive orders. 97 00:10:24,090 --> 00:10:32,729 And we know from the political campaign that unfortunately, the migration system will change for the worse, 98 00:10:32,730 --> 00:10:40,040 most probably in the next four years, and that it will hurt basically each and every migrant who doesn't have a green card. 99 00:10:40,050 --> 00:10:45,570 So all of us who don't have a permanent residency will be affected by these measures. 100 00:10:45,570 --> 00:10:55,830 But in the long term, the main issue is the lack or the difficulty to access regularisation to access real large data. 101 00:10:56,790 --> 00:11:07,529 This is why I wanted to focus mainly on the promise of Donald Trump of deporting as many undocumented migrants as possible, 102 00:11:07,530 --> 00:11:20,760 because this is a historic issue that the US has of not providing legal pathways that are accessible for different groups of migrants. 103 00:11:21,270 --> 00:11:24,190 I like the word migrant. I don't like the word immigrant. 104 00:11:24,210 --> 00:11:30,480 I don't like the word undocumented migrants, but I use them because they see the vocabulary that is used in the US. 105 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:35,050 So undocumented immigrants, and which we can also call it regularised. 106 00:11:35,070 --> 00:11:42,809 So people who have not been able to regularise their status are divided into very different genius 107 00:11:42,810 --> 00:11:49,830 groups that are right in the US in different historical moments because of different causes. 108 00:11:49,860 --> 00:12:00,510 Like I would even mention a human unnatural that atrophies in different moments of history in Central America, in Mexico, 109 00:12:00,870 --> 00:12:10,970 civil wars and different historical events that needed protection for them, you know, so asylum, but also economic migration. 110 00:12:10,980 --> 00:12:23,490 So migrants arrive here for a host of different reasons, and many of them, which would be something like 12 million people in that being undocumented. 111 00:12:24,570 --> 00:12:30,750 What is their issue here? They don't have protection against deportation. 112 00:12:30,750 --> 00:12:38,940 And these is the large group that Trump is threatening to deport most of them. 113 00:12:38,940 --> 00:12:47,550 So 85% of them are Mexicans and 11% are from the Northern Triangle of Central America. 114 00:12:47,670 --> 00:12:57,060 So the destination countries want the deportation starts are quite specific, and they are, of course, undocumented migrants from other regions. 115 00:12:57,300 --> 00:13:01,260 But these make their board of those who will be deported. 116 00:13:01,830 --> 00:13:14,650 It is thought that logistically Trump could deport 4 million people, which is kind of like four times or more what he deported in his last presidency. 117 00:13:14,670 --> 00:13:21,440 So in his last term, we know that these people, for the most part, are very well integrated into your community. 118 00:13:21,460 --> 00:13:25,740 So they have lived here for several decades. They work here. 119 00:13:25,740 --> 00:13:33,690 In fact, many industries depend on migrant labour, manufacturing, agriculture, services, construction. 120 00:13:33,690 --> 00:13:37,200 And if you live here, you know that migrants work in those areas. 121 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:46,440 This is the way it is, which is why it would be such a large loss of workforce for the US to deport of these undocumented migrants. 122 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:59,550 Migrants contributions to the federal, local and county tax systems is calculated in tens of billions of dollars per year. 123 00:14:00,060 --> 00:14:06,320 Those contributions go to federal benefits like Medicare, um, you know, 124 00:14:06,390 --> 00:14:11,100 pensions that the migrants, undocumented migrants themselves don't benefit from. 125 00:14:11,370 --> 00:14:21,540 So also with our work, even if we are undocumented or if we are not completely regularise, contribute to the well-being of US citizens. 126 00:14:22,110 --> 00:14:32,790 What do I mean by all of these? I think the main message is that, uh, most of these people who may be deported are very well into the economy, 127 00:14:32,790 --> 00:14:37,820 and the human costs of deporting them will be huge. 128 00:14:37,890 --> 00:14:44,190 It will be an enormous cost in terms of human rights and their well being of immigrants. 129 00:14:44,970 --> 00:14:50,280 Um, yeah. This is probably what we are coming back to in the next four years. 130 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:59,850 Maria Elena, what we've heard from April and Maria, we can hear the kind of internal and external pressures. 131 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:03,630 And tensions that Mexico is really facing at the moment. 132 00:15:04,140 --> 00:15:07,700 And we haven't even mentioned as much the kind of influence of organised crime on this. 133 00:15:07,710 --> 00:15:16,370 And I, I wonder how, uh, NGOs, governmental actors, people working on this issue in, in Mexico, 134 00:15:16,380 --> 00:15:21,270 how are they working to try to manage these tensions whilst also trying to 135 00:15:21,300 --> 00:15:25,860 promote human rights and also highlight why these rights are being violated? 136 00:15:26,220 --> 00:15:35,770 Well, all these pressures, policies and practices that, uh, Abril and Mara spoke about translate into considerable humanitarian needs. 137 00:15:35,790 --> 00:15:39,630 And what I would like to describe as a protection crisis in Mexico. 138 00:15:40,230 --> 00:15:46,890 Mexico is an upper middle country. And as such, there is not an official humanitarian emergency. 139 00:15:47,250 --> 00:15:54,510 Uh, as we can see in other humanitarian context, in the sense that we don't have, uh, full scale humanitarian architecture, 140 00:15:54,510 --> 00:16:03,240 where in NGOs, civil society organisations, the UN can access, uh, quickly to different funds to respond to these, uh, needs. 141 00:16:03,930 --> 00:16:10,860 However, the consequences of these policies and practices do have a similar impact on people. 142 00:16:10,860 --> 00:16:14,370 And both, as we can see in other contexts in the world. 143 00:16:14,610 --> 00:16:23,820 When we look at the types of violence, coercion and deliberate, uh, deprivation that migrants experienced throughout the drought, 144 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:30,450 and these experiences have, uh, physical and psychological consequences that are very concerning. 145 00:16:31,140 --> 00:16:32,010 At the same time, 146 00:16:32,310 --> 00:16:40,290 what we see is that because of the nature of the so-called mixed migration movements and the different practices that are really explained, 147 00:16:40,770 --> 00:16:43,710 we see that people are really hard to reach. 148 00:16:43,980 --> 00:16:50,280 They will choose routes where their friends are invisible because they there's not many regular migration pathways. 149 00:16:50,310 --> 00:16:58,230 So in a way, there's also a lack of evidence, uh, that it's also exacerbated by the fact that this is a very politicised topic. 150 00:16:58,830 --> 00:17:05,729 One of the strategies that we have at the Danish Refugee Council is first to document the magnitude of the crisis and its 151 00:17:05,730 --> 00:17:13,830 consequences through gathering evidence from migrants themselves and use it towards evidence based responses and advocacy. 152 00:17:14,130 --> 00:17:19,800 So one of the things that we do is, uh, collecting qualitative and quantitative data, um, 153 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:25,680 in the places where you offer a humanitarian response and that allows us to really tailor what we are doing, 154 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:33,240 but also advocate to respond to these, uh, human rights violations and ensure that duty bearers fulfil their obligations. 155 00:17:33,750 --> 00:17:37,890 For example, between November 2023 and October 2024. 156 00:17:38,310 --> 00:17:42,660 94% of the people that we've reached who were, um, 157 00:17:42,660 --> 00:17:50,340 transiting Mexico or where in Mexico have been victims or have had witnessed some type of violence during their journey. 158 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:55,140 And those type of violence will have been robbery, extortion, but also kidnapping. 159 00:17:55,770 --> 00:18:00,600 94% is it's a very high number and it's very important to see the magnitude of that. 160 00:18:00,870 --> 00:18:03,780 That means that we are talking about very vulnerable individuals. 161 00:18:04,170 --> 00:18:12,090 So when we see that, and at the same time, we look at the combination of overwhelmed asylum systems, not only in Mexico but throughout the region. 162 00:18:12,630 --> 00:18:19,020 Limited pathways for regular migration, increasing restrictions to access your, uh, to US territory. 163 00:18:19,470 --> 00:18:24,840 We see migrants who are in Mexico now waiting in a more precarious condition. 164 00:18:25,980 --> 00:18:34,580 And we see also, at the regional level, a shift, uh, towards a securitisation approach to migration management instead of a human rights approach. 165 00:18:34,620 --> 00:18:43,770 And that leaves people on the move at very high risk throughout the journey, but also pushes them to opt for more dangerous routes. 166 00:18:44,370 --> 00:18:48,180 In many cases, these routes are controlled by organised crime. 167 00:18:48,900 --> 00:18:53,190 So again, it's a perfect combination for a protection crisis. 168 00:18:53,610 --> 00:19:01,319 People on the move have become also a commodity. And Maria Elena, I was just going to ask you were talking there in one direction. 169 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:05,640 People who were, uh, who were trying to get to the US or trying to get somewhere else. 170 00:19:06,060 --> 00:19:09,760 Mara spoke about people who in the future might be returning. 171 00:19:09,780 --> 00:19:17,160 Do you see the work to kind of highlight who might never have been in Mexico or haven't been there for a very long time? 172 00:19:17,460 --> 00:19:21,450 Um, do you see the challenges with working with that group as different? 173 00:19:21,750 --> 00:19:28,770 Or do you actually think that some of them will be quite similar, or that that will just be additional pressure that's added into the system? 174 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:37,530 I think it's an additional pressure added to the system when we when we look at the profiles of Transit Mexico, it's it's a variety. 175 00:19:37,530 --> 00:19:46,230 That's impressive. Um, it's people from all around the world and everyone will experience those human rights violations quite differently. 176 00:19:46,260 --> 00:19:52,229 The vulnerability will increase. For example, if a person does not speak the language, the ability will increase, um, 177 00:19:52,230 --> 00:19:58,290 depending on, um, the appearance of the person or the type of networks that they will have. 178 00:19:58,530 --> 00:20:04,770 So there's many perceptions. For example, that certain population groups are a better target for organised crime. 179 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,940 So again, when we look at these flows, it's not that one way street. 180 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:16,560 It's uh, it's more complicated. And I think that for humanitarian organisations also create a lot of, uh, a lot of challenges, 181 00:20:16,980 --> 00:20:25,830 because by the time people on the move reach the, the maritime border, they have already experienced some form of abuse in their journey. 182 00:20:26,190 --> 00:20:32,849 And those journeys can be two weeks, can be six months have gone, uh, through different countries, 183 00:20:32,850 --> 00:20:36,630 many countries where they might have experienced other types of violations, 184 00:20:36,810 --> 00:20:43,380 including very serious human rights violations such as sexual and gender based violence, torture and arbitrary detention. 185 00:20:43,890 --> 00:20:47,880 So for aid, for NGOs in general, this is very concerning. 186 00:20:48,850 --> 00:20:55,390 Absolutely. April. Um, Maria Lynn used a really, uh, interesting phrase that which was rendered invisible. 187 00:20:55,690 --> 00:21:01,240 Um, this idea that the the people at the heart of this often, um, 188 00:21:02,410 --> 00:21:10,420 aren't really seen in these kind of large scale geopolitical currents that are and batting people back and forth or, 189 00:21:10,750 --> 00:21:17,829 um, or the, the politics of the situation. And I know that you've done some work in your research of trying to kind of bring forward, 190 00:21:17,830 --> 00:21:22,840 in some creative ways, the voices of people who otherwise might be quite voiceless in this process. 191 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,840 And I just wondered if you could tell us a little bit about that. 192 00:21:25,990 --> 00:21:30,300 Yeah, I think it's very important, as Marielena was mentioning, to, uh, 193 00:21:30,310 --> 00:21:35,410 keep in mind this intersectional approach and the fact that everybody is coping, 194 00:21:35,410 --> 00:21:43,870 uh, differently to, to these obstacles and oppressive structures depending on the different markers of identity and, and other aspects. 195 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:52,839 So, yes, for my doctoral research, I collaborated with women and gender diverse migrants to explore how migration experiences transform migrants, 196 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:57,040 agency and open some ambivalent opportunities for empowerment. 197 00:21:57,460 --> 00:22:03,920 And I use participatory arts based research methods to engage with my collaborators and explore these issues. 198 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:12,190 So. But it took a bit about art itself and and art as a useful tools to exercise collective agency and achieve goals. 199 00:22:12,670 --> 00:22:17,620 And I would like to share when the case of one of my collaborators who told me about her 200 00:22:17,620 --> 00:22:22,540 engagement with an arts collective that performed social theatre in the streets of Tijuana, 201 00:22:22,990 --> 00:22:29,410 uh, bordering, uh, San Diego in the US, she she fled what they did to gender based violence. 202 00:22:29,410 --> 00:22:34,780 And she was amongst the many victims of child, uh, theft in her country. 203 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:43,240 Her child was taken away from her about 20 years ago, and she endured different forms of violence in her home country until she fled. 204 00:22:43,570 --> 00:22:48,370 So she participated in, in this, uh, street theatre collective. 205 00:22:48,610 --> 00:22:53,350 And she took part of several performances, appeared on TV in several occasions. 206 00:22:53,560 --> 00:23:00,180 So this exposure helped her not only to express and raise a deep concerns, healthy, uh uh, 207 00:23:00,190 --> 00:23:05,020 emotions and grievance around her, her losses and violent experience that she had endured. 208 00:23:05,500 --> 00:23:09,489 But it also helped her connect with the Catholic priest and migrants. 209 00:23:09,490 --> 00:23:17,350 Right. Defenders, uh, very well known Alessandra La Linda, who helped him, uh, reunite with her with her children in Mexico. 210 00:23:17,830 --> 00:23:26,020 So art space initiatives can serve as platforms for migrants to accept, express and resist oppressive structures, 211 00:23:26,170 --> 00:23:33,670 raise awareness of their lived experiences, and also foster empathy and solidarity within broader communities. 212 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,600 So in Tapachula and Tijuana, some of my collaborators. 213 00:23:37,870 --> 00:23:43,660 So Tapachula in the south, bordering with the Mala Tijuana bordering the US, some of them mentioned murals, 214 00:23:44,350 --> 00:23:52,690 murals around the cities created by migrants in collaboration with local artists and supported by organisations visualising their journeys, 215 00:23:52,690 --> 00:24:00,850 their struggles in strength and resilience. So, of course, these are artistic initiatives cannot directly resolve the challenges that migrants face, 216 00:24:01,060 --> 00:24:04,570 but they contribute to advocacy efforts for policy change. 217 00:24:04,780 --> 00:24:11,590 They foster environmental migrants, feel represented and valued and support their psychological, uh, coping strategies. 218 00:24:11,770 --> 00:24:21,400 And they are a way for migrants themselves, not organisations, but for migrants themselves to speak from their own platforms, from their own voices. 219 00:24:21,910 --> 00:24:29,710 But where there is oppressive power, there is resistance, and there are opportunities for transformation and expansion of agency. 220 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,260 Thanks so much, April. Mara. 221 00:24:32,260 --> 00:24:43,690 Turning back to the US and I guess sort of fairly stark contrast, perhaps, to the individual stories that Abril is sharing in the 2024 election. 222 00:24:43,690 --> 00:24:49,749 We know that immigration was kind of the number one issue for late breaking Trump voters, according to the exit polls, 223 00:24:49,750 --> 00:24:56,200 and that was with a kind of particular focus on the southern border and migration from Mexico, 224 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:02,590 dating right back to when Trump first arrived on the scene back in 2015. 225 00:25:02,950 --> 00:25:10,270 There's a very stark contrast there between the way that that migration is presented in political narratives. 226 00:25:10,450 --> 00:25:21,500 That's actually proved very enduring, and what Abril has been talking about, about a kind of reframing or different understanding of that migration. 227 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:27,040 The contribution that you described earlier, that it makes, um, both economically and culturally. 228 00:25:27,310 --> 00:25:36,790 And I wondered if you could say a little bit about why this negative narrative has proved so enduring and what might come next. 229 00:25:37,330 --> 00:25:41,150 First, to clarify the border between Mexico and the US. 230 00:25:41,170 --> 00:25:45,830 In other words, you Mexican, the U.S. it is a border between the global North and the global South. 231 00:25:45,850 --> 00:25:48,240 It is a border between the US and Latin. 232 00:25:48,350 --> 00:25:58,250 America, which is very clear in the racist tones of everything we heard from convict Trump during the past year, 233 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,219 and Eddie Sawyer that there's a racist, 234 00:26:01,220 --> 00:26:09,330 xenophobic intent against migrants of colour who are arriving at the border, specifically Latin American migrants. 235 00:26:09,350 --> 00:26:15,950 It is not. The Ukrainians, for example, receive a different treatment during their own crisis. 236 00:26:15,950 --> 00:26:23,510 And until now, Latin American migrants from all nationalities are at risk of human rights violations at the border. 237 00:26:23,540 --> 00:26:33,380 It is not only Mexicans regarding resistance to those narratives and to these measures in general within the US. 238 00:26:33,710 --> 00:26:38,360 As I mentioned before, I live in Northern California. I live a very, very far away from the border. 239 00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:47,360 It would be a 12 hour ride if I wanted to go by car, but here there is a lot of resistance to and when it comes to government, 240 00:26:47,360 --> 00:26:57,560 land and resistance and in by my own policies, there is a re known a US national policy called sanctuary cities. 241 00:26:58,070 --> 00:27:07,520 There are 11 sanctuary states in the US, and there are dozens of tens and tens of sanctuary counties and cities. 242 00:27:08,660 --> 00:27:18,610 They were created during the Army in the 19th to protect migrants from the Northern Triangle of Central America, who were fleeing civil war or so on. 243 00:27:18,620 --> 00:27:23,200 Natural hazards on my went from all over the world not to be deported. 244 00:27:23,210 --> 00:27:29,060 So what these sanctuary jurisdictions do is to have ordinances, policies, 245 00:27:29,060 --> 00:27:34,460 a measure of net to provide help to the federal government in their deportation projects. 246 00:27:35,120 --> 00:27:38,839 Um, and that would be a government in response. 247 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:49,100 But there's also NGO organisation, there's a network of their rapid response networks in California, 248 00:27:49,100 --> 00:27:55,850 uh, across the state, not only in the border, but also here in Northern California and beyond. 249 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:01,309 What they do is to be very aware of Ice raids. 250 00:28:01,310 --> 00:28:08,510 For those who are not familiar with their situation during the last Trump administration, 251 00:28:08,660 --> 00:28:15,469 the way he was able to deport 1.5 million people was by ramping up Ice raids. 252 00:28:15,470 --> 00:28:20,270 So these means that Ice, which is a type of law enforcement, 253 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:30,050 would go to workplaces or to public spaces or to people's houses to arrest them and start the deportation process. 254 00:28:30,740 --> 00:28:35,190 These networks were created to, um, first of all, 255 00:28:35,210 --> 00:28:42,260 provide legal information to undocumented migrants because many times they don't know that they can avoid, 256 00:28:42,290 --> 00:28:47,240 they can prevent speaking to Ice policemen or Ice representatives. 257 00:28:47,630 --> 00:28:54,650 So that is important also to give them information about family reunification and family separation, 258 00:28:55,250 --> 00:29:01,070 and also to be present at those raids to try to protect these migrant rights. 259 00:29:01,940 --> 00:29:09,200 All of the networks, all of the NGOs that participate in them are grassroots organisations, community based organisations. 260 00:29:09,980 --> 00:29:14,209 The governor of California, who of course is a Democrat, 261 00:29:14,210 --> 00:29:22,550 and in fact many other Democrat governors and politicians have also expressed their support to migrants. 262 00:29:22,910 --> 00:29:29,030 And so the order has already mentioned that he is going to provide more funding 263 00:29:29,030 --> 00:29:33,950 to these community based networks so that they can also ramp up their efforts, 264 00:29:33,950 --> 00:29:38,480 because it will be necessary during the upcoming four year. 265 00:29:39,470 --> 00:29:43,740 Thousands of people marched across 70 city. 266 00:29:43,820 --> 00:29:46,260 Some cities have more than one might have been more or less. 267 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:54,950 And the series to show resistance and show that we think that these measures are crucial not only migration measures but also, 268 00:29:54,980 --> 00:30:03,020 um, reproductive health and other human rights that will be affected during the Trump presidency. 269 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:11,569 And that is the most important factor, I think all of these that we are going to continue resisting these measures, 270 00:30:11,570 --> 00:30:17,360 that we are going to continue being active members of our communities like we already are, 271 00:30:17,780 --> 00:30:23,450 between parentheses, many undocumented migrants now are in fear of being deported. 272 00:30:23,780 --> 00:30:32,000 So they go from work to their homes. This is also one of the consequences of these deportations, even if they don't happen at all, 273 00:30:32,390 --> 00:30:41,600 are already having the consequence of infusing anxiety, uncertainty and fear in the American population. 274 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:46,459 Fighting against these is extremely important. It will be crucial in the next four years. 275 00:30:46,460 --> 00:30:54,030 And for that, these type. Of mass demonstrations against the measure will be very important. 276 00:30:54,780 --> 00:30:58,820 Thank you. Mara. Maria Elena. I thought it was really interesting. 277 00:30:58,830 --> 00:31:02,790 Mara's characterisation of the borders between the global north and global South. 278 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:07,139 And that is a good example of the kind of bind in a way that Mexico is in, 279 00:31:07,140 --> 00:31:14,070 and where it's stuck between these different situations that are not of its own creation, but it's impacted. 280 00:31:14,070 --> 00:31:18,330 And I just wonder, you know, obviously you don't have a crystal ball, you don't know what's going to happen. 281 00:31:18,330 --> 00:31:25,290 But how is this rhetoric and policy seen in Mexico in terms of public opinion and the NGOs working in the ground, 282 00:31:25,290 --> 00:31:32,550 but also in terms of government policy and the way that they understand how this will impact what's happening over that. 283 00:31:33,430 --> 00:31:40,480 There is a popular saying in Mexico that we are too close from the US and too far from God, and I think that's, um. 284 00:31:40,820 --> 00:31:45,820 Uh, it's very colloquial, but sometimes in this, in these situations, uh, it's very accurate. 285 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,250 I think what might describe this very important. 286 00:31:48,580 --> 00:31:53,830 Well, we have not seen the real implications of these political changes, and they have to materialise. 287 00:31:54,010 --> 00:31:58,660 Uh, as we record these episodes, we still have to see how they're going to come into effect. 288 00:31:59,140 --> 00:32:06,700 But there is a high probability that if the forecast we are expecting is, uh, it's aligned with these policies. 289 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:11,319 The humanitarian situation in Mexico will exacerbate. 290 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:15,790 And along with the um, associated protection risks that I described. 291 00:32:15,790 --> 00:32:19,900 And the reality is that migration has always happened in the Americas. 292 00:32:20,090 --> 00:32:26,980 Uh, this is not going to change. I've already discussed, uh, that Mexico is a transit destination, an origin country. 293 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:32,020 But Mexico also has many Americans and Canadians living in Mexico. 294 00:32:32,020 --> 00:32:35,770 In fact, Americans are the first nationality in Mexico. 295 00:32:35,980 --> 00:32:44,920 So this type of, um, of rhetoric. But but does is, is kind of exacerbates this imaginary idea of who are the migrants? 296 00:32:45,220 --> 00:32:47,440 What is the danger, uh, etc. 297 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:56,140 And I think that this is very problematic as it resonates with multiple disparate discriminatory practices and insane phobia. 298 00:32:56,170 --> 00:33:04,030 Um, but it also consolidates a shift, um, in duty bearers towards not meeting their human rights obligations. 299 00:33:04,030 --> 00:33:10,299 And we see this around the world. I think that it is going to continue happening is that, uh, 300 00:33:10,300 --> 00:33:16,840 migrants will end up using unsafe pathways, and they will be left at the mercy of organised crime. 301 00:33:17,260 --> 00:33:22,950 Uh, in parallel with the idea of a more militarised, uh, immigration system in Mexico, 302 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:27,010 it will have, um, a very complicated effect on migrants themselves. 303 00:33:27,460 --> 00:33:34,040 But I think that what happens is that this, uh, border that Mara was talking about, it keeps on being pushed. 304 00:33:34,050 --> 00:33:40,270 Push south. So it's not only that imaginary border between the global north and the global South, 305 00:33:40,570 --> 00:33:43,600 between the U.S. and Mexico, but the border keeps on being pushed. 306 00:33:43,900 --> 00:33:47,560 To what? Similar to the Salvador, to Panama, to Colombia. 307 00:33:48,190 --> 00:33:51,880 So that is also very important. The pressure will increase. 308 00:33:52,330 --> 00:33:53,340 Um, elsewhere. 309 00:33:53,860 --> 00:34:03,280 What we see from our evidence is that, uh, 94% of the migrants that we interviewed will face a risk if they were to return to their home country, 310 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,560 and 51% of those profiles are in need of international protection. 311 00:34:09,070 --> 00:34:13,750 So that means that their their lives will be at risk if they were to return to their country. 312 00:34:14,470 --> 00:34:17,920 Uh, that pressure will be wherever the border moves south. 313 00:34:18,370 --> 00:34:24,430 So that leaves Mexico with, uh, in a situation where the asylum system is already overwhelmed. 314 00:34:24,790 --> 00:34:31,870 That has a lot of challenges. But at the same time, Mexico may not be the safest country, uh, for many migrants. 315 00:34:32,260 --> 00:34:38,110 So, um, it's very likely that migrants will stay in Mexico for a longer period of time in very precarious conditions, 316 00:34:38,110 --> 00:34:40,000 with limited options to access protection. 317 00:34:40,540 --> 00:34:48,009 The most important part is thinking about how to strengthen civil society organisation, uh, local networks, NGOs, 318 00:34:48,010 --> 00:34:54,910 both national and international, into providing that support to refugees and migrants, uh, in Mexico and throughout the region. 319 00:34:55,210 --> 00:35:03,190 We need to think about how to create those avenues of resistance, but also empowerment and enabling people to to claim their rights, 320 00:35:03,580 --> 00:35:10,750 because at the end of the day, uh, states do have an obligation beyond this political rhetoric towards migrants, regardless of their status. 321 00:35:12,050 --> 00:35:15,740 A moment of profound uncertainty and worry, I guess. 322 00:35:15,740 --> 00:35:23,000 But thank you so much to all of you for your really important insights on both sides of that border, 323 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,390 and trying to understand and unpicks with what's going on. 324 00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:29,940 Thank you. You've been listening to the Migration Oxford podcast. 325 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,240 I'm Jacki Brodhead, and I'm Rob McNeil.