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It's my pleasure to welcome Vanessa Barker here today to give the first of the Hillary term also criminology seminars.

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Vanessa is a docent and associate professor of sociology at Stockholm University and associate director of Border Criminology.

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She's well known here at the centre because she spent a year visiting as a

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visiting fellow and also works with a number of us on various different projects.

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Vanessa's research has always focussed around different themes, issues to do with questions of democracy,

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penal order and more recently on the welfare state and border control and the criminalisation and penalise nation of migrants.

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And today, she's going to be talking to us about her new book, Nordic Nationalism People Penal Order as well.

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And so this is more or less hot off the press. I think it came out at the end of last year, this November 11th.

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All right. There you go. So we're very lucky to have Vanessa here with us today to talk about her new work.

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And I will hand it over to you.

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Harry, there was a little chat once in the front and thank you, Mary, and the Centre for Criminology for the invitation.

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It's really my pleasure to be back here because while I was visiting I was working on a proposal and then to

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return with the actual product is actually satisfying for myself and also Tom Sutton is here from Routledge.

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So I would also like to thank Routledge for really supporting the development of the book and the production process.

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So Thomas here, I'm really excited about the book and having the chance to talk to you about some,

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some of the ideas that we've been in conversation about, but also some developments that occurred since then.

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So I want to in this talk, give the the big picture of the book and the arguments and then open up for some discussions.

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And I think I've been giving some talks already about the book and received some pushback, some some some more or less aggressive than others.

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So I'm very curious to hear see here with this if this crowd or different people in this crowd, I might have to say so.

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The book is about about Sweden and the the migration of the refugee crisis that occurred in 2015.

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But it's the migration, the refugee crisis that was going on in 2015.

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It's really an occasion to look deeper into the society and the changing nature of welfare states in this period of globalisation and global mobility.

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I framed the book about that around this fall of opens up in the fall of 2015 and this already seems we're in 2018.

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The fall of 2015 seems a long time ago.

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I feel like the world has really been transformed really quickly. But in the summer of 2015 and in the fall, this was this period,

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in some ways a hopeful period when Europe was opening its walls to people fleeing Syria, also Afghanistan.

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And there was refugees welcoming civil society movements that were spontaneously emerging in large cities across Germany and Sweden as well.

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And there was this period where, yes, Europe was was open to opening its doors and opening its borders.

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And in Sweden, this was a a speech made in September by our prime minister by then.

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And it was a very he is he he come from he was the president of one of the most famous labour unions in Sweden.

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He's not well known for being a kind of charismatic speaker.

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This speech was the best speech of his life. I mean, it really moved people and, you know, brought people to tears.

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It was a very moving speech about the end of the Cold War and tearing down walls.

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And what kind of Europe are we going to be? We're a Europe. We're going to open our borders.

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We're going to bring in. Yes, anyone coming from Syria is welcome in Sweden.

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And he said, why Europe doesn't build walls. That's not my Europe.

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And it was very, again, very powerful speech from again, someone who's not wasn't well known for being a charismatic speaker.

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This is in midway in the system, which means the citizens square.

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So it was also very symbolically resonant that he gave a speech there with pro refugee supporters,

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both in the government, civil society and refugees and migrants, asylum seekers themselves.

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And then there was a march walking hand in hand.

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This is in September, over the summer and then through the fall there was a large increase in the number of asylum seekers who came into Sweden.

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The summer was again very dramatic with increases in the Sweden is a population of 10 million so small scale country and the number started.

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Increasing dramatically over the summer.

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And then it reached its peak in the fall, about 10,000 people entering the country to seek asylum in one week.

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And this was for the Sweden Migration Board and the government agencies.

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A very high number and a very high peak. This graph, the blue line, is the year I'm referring to in 2015.

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So it is 2017. Is that the blue taxi, blue or green?

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Blue. I did okay. Yeah. So the dark blue, right.

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That this is the that the this wave right. That comes in, this was 2016 that's coming and the need for a year previous.

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So you can see I mean just graphically very quickly that this was an unusual pattern,

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even though Sweden had been relatively open right prior to this to asylum seekers coming in.

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But this increase was was important.

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So by the fall, you have these increases, this peak in November and then by mid-November, end of this is just an image of reflection, large numbers,

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again coming in the police migration agents there to meet people and this large

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scale prophecy by mid-November this speech by the Prime Minister's to takes a 180.

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He basically says in another speech the Government now considers that the current situation with a large number of people

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entering into the country in a relatively short time poses a serious threat to public order and national security.

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So this is within months of his prior speech, which he invites refugees and asylum seekers to come in.

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And now he's basically saying they pose a threat to public order and national security.

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And this is the motivation to close the border with Denmark, which had not been closed since World War Two.

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So Denmark and Sweden on the on the the border, they are close neighbours beyond the European Union.

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But the sharing and the Nordic cooperation, the border had never had not been closed since World War Two.

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They closed the border and install I.D. checks within the Schengen area,

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passport controls which had been been in operation, restrictions on permits becoming temporary permits.

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So if you were entering to seek asylum, you received a temporary permit which would be subject to evaluation within a year.

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So they I mean, just create a lot of paperwork for themselves as well.

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It so they created temporary permits and restrictions on family reunifications.

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And they were going to and the prediction was it would increase deportations or expulsions for people who no longer had a legal right to remain in.

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This is, in fact, what they did. The estimate was.

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So I think the end the peak figure, the number that had come in to seek asylum in this period was 163,000 people.

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And then when they closed the border, they basically said, okay, in order to get our numbers down,

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we're going to deport 80,000, which is kind of convenient number of what was what had come in.

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The number was not as high as that, but this was what was estimated in order to get get the numbers.

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But basically what the government instituted through legal restrictions and practices at the border, blocking access and increasing removals.

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Right. To get what they said, get the system under control.

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The question is, this is definitive from the from Castro.

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If anyone has flown in through Copenhagen, this this is a it's in Denmark, but it isn't.

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These are the trains that go across the bridge and whether they go across the bridge into Sweden.

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And this is a fence. And I also think just graphically this is important to show as well.

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Come back to this fence. This is not a wall. Right.

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So this wasn't a concrete Berlin Wall, but this was a fence that had not existed between these countries inside a sharing

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and inside Nordic cooperation in order to prevent people from seeking asylum,

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from claiming claiming their rights. So why did this happen, this very dramatic shift from I mean,

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it's one thing to say we really don't want asylum seekers here and then install restrictions.

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I think it's a really different ballgame to say come on in and then close the border and increase basically the violence against these people.

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So why is this happening?

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The government's explanation in the immediate period of time in November and has since carried on, was that this was a a system overload.

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The system's going to collapse. There were too many people.

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The Migration Board was unprepared, lack of coordination across agencies.

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So there was a lot of concern about the security and reception with with people coming in with.

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You had Red Cross there, volunteers, you had other excuse me, civil society organisations there.

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You had government officials there, you had the police.

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But this was not very well coordinated in terms of authority, in terms of jurisdiction, in terms of procedure.

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And these changes occurred very quickly where you actually had volunteers who the

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day one day were legally transporting asylum seekers into a reception centre.

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The next day they were being charged with a crime for trafficking or for smuggling people into the border.

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So it was a very it was a very chaotic situation which contributed to the sense of disorder.

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And in Sweden itself, it's a highly ordered society.

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And so this system collapse was very real impact to the people working in reception, the people's asylum seekers themselves.

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Right. And in terms of how order, how orderly the system was assigning housing, assigning workers to their case.

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It went beyond the reception. This idea about system collapse right inside the government.

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Government elites were very concerned with the impact on society, all society institutions.

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So if you have this large increase in the population, there were concerns about the police services,

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the emergency rooms, the schools, the hospitals, the doggies, the pre-school, health care.

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And these are in these documents about from from the political elites in this discussion.

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All of these are social core and social institutions were under threat by this this increase of the population in such a short period of time.

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The the system overload system collapse. When I first heard it in the in the in the.

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In his public statements. I didn't take it too seriously. But I have to say, in doing the research and going back through the records,

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this was a real impact on how people perceive their jobs and what they thought the society was capable of doing.

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It's not a sociological explanation. Right. And this is the task for for us as social analysts.

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Right. The government. It's it was a real technical explanation about system collapse.

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But the question is, the sociological question is what are the social conditions that allowed for this?

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That brought this about? You know, what what are why was the government so underprepared?

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Why wasn't there a coordination strategy?

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This is not it was it was not a mystery that there is, you know, conflict around the world and people are fleeing.

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And it's not a mystery that hundreds of people are dying in the Mediterranean, crossing borders, trying to get in to Europe.

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Sweden had also experienced a previous refugee crisis during the former Yugoslav war,

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where they also feared a system collapse and had temporarily closed.

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Think close the border. So the question is really, you know, what are the social conditions which allow for them to be?

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So maybe some would say naive, but also just underprepared that the scale of this is large.

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We're really dealing with large movements of people and governments at this day and age.

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Why aren't they prepared for this? Why are we thinking like the Great Depression, the Works Progress Administration,

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which put thousands, tens of thousands of unemployed people to work on government projects?

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Like why weren't these things sort of in order? What's really going on?

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There are other arguments coming from different different literatures, different pieces of this who had who basically say Sweden.

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It's unlike it's just like every other country.

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This is an argument about the global north closing itself off to the global south, which is, you know, rich white people.

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We just don't really want to have poor black people and people coming from the global south in Sweden that this is part of a larger trend.

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I'm going to take issue with some of that, those critiques.

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There are other very common arguments about why we have restrictive border control,

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why we see a crackdown against migration across Europe, North America, Australia.

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This has to do with neoliberalism that this is all about and of global economic imperatives,

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which which are driving states to increase restrictions on migration.

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I'm also going to take some issue with these types of arguments as well in the Nordic context,

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because in the Nordic context, welfare states are strong and it's the exact opposite, I would argue,

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about what's going on, that it's not about neoliberalism, but rather it's about the preservation of the welfare state itself,

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the welfare state, sustainability, the solvency of the welfare state.

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So in the Nordic countries where these economies are strong, the benefit in benefits, resources, the distribution,

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these are very highly functioning societies in terms of their affluence, in terms of the welfare state.

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So we also can get into some argument about this. But there has been increased inequality in the welfare state.

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But the overall purpose of the government, the overall purpose of the rationale of the government has maintained for well over 100 years,

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well over a hundred years, practically this governing strategy about taking care of the population protection and prevention against Ills.

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So let's discuss that a little bit more. So what?

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My argument for it is setting up that rather than thinking about these external or global forces,

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that there's a need to understand what's going on inside the welfare state itself.

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We haven't really understood this very well. What are the social conditions that that brought it about?

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And it also like to highlight this point, which I was really inspired by, are motivated by Eric Klinenberg,

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who's a sociologist who's written a book about the heat wave in the 1990s in the United States.

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And he analysed the heat wave to say, well, the heat wave, the common explanation why people died.

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Mortality rates were high because it was a climate and natural disaster.

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But he says people died in the dead bodies.

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These were reflective of social faultlines in the society that they just don't die because of natural disaster.

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Who's most vulnerable? It tends to reflect where we are divided in that society.

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And I read rereading that book for Methods and Methods, cause it made me think about the border closing as well.

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And yes, I think that's true in Sweden.

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I mean, the fault lines are there, but who what are the fault lines in Sweden and how does the border closing and the harm that's imposed?

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How does this reflect the social fault lines in the society?

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A couple of other methodological notes on this on this theme.

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So I want to understand the border closing in this broad context.

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And Sweden becomes an obvious case to do it because they actually close the border.

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It's part of a continuum of restrictive migration policies.

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But it. Very dramatic. So it's intrinsically interesting.

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Why would a country that was once so open, so egalitarian has this history of being open to migration?

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Why would it do this? We know. Or if you studied comparative welfare state.

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Sweden is also a very generous welfare state.

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So there's something interesting and different about Sweden than some of the other countries we've know about.

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And most of you, if you're coming from criminology or punishment,

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it's well known that in the Nordic countries, they tend to have more mild, inhumane penal sanction.

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Well, when we start to look at this intersection of migration and border controls with the penal system, that entire image starts to come undone.

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So Sweden becomes a very a critical case for it to analyse these processes because it should conform right to expectations,

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should have been kept open, but it doesn't.

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They put up this fence and I argue because it doesn't conform to what we might expect, we actually need to generate some new theories.

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Right? The ones that we have don't really fit very well in that people, I think, contort themselves to make what we have already fit fit the case.

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And it's often with kit, with with cases where the dynamics that are there,

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we need to take them in inductively or objectively what's going on inside them that we can understand rather than apply.

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Right, some pre-existing theory. So this is how methodologically approach the the study.

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The other note of methods, which I think is important, is they're bringing in the temporal temporality or time horizons.

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So. When you think about social conditions that bring something about are the core social

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causes that bring an event about in popular understandings or journalistic accounts.

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We tend to focus on the immediate present. What happened right in this right now?

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Right in proximate. Those are short term causes.

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And this chart comes from Paul Pearson, who who was bringing in kind of a much, I think, sophisticated view about time.

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You can look at short term causes that lead to short term outcomes or you can have short term causes that have long term outcomes.

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But he's really pushing as a sociologist or social theorist to look at long term causes, the societal structures,

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right social organisation that can have either short term outcomes and long term outcomes.

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So just to put this concretely, the the system collapse argument that I gave you,

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that is a kind of short term cause and a short term outcome is system overload.

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Something happens as a crisis and then boom that the borders close again.

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I don't find that to be sufficient because we need to dig deeper into why weren't they prepared?

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And so I'm focusing on the long term. So what that meant for my analysis was that in order to understand the social dynamics that are going on,

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it wasn't enough to look at the immediate politics, although I did or the immediate structure.

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It wasn't enough to look at ten years ago, but actually to look at this foundations of the welfare state,

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to kind of get the long dry if you study history, right.

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These long term social processes that occur over time that tend to repeat themselves and create certain patterns of action.

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And this is very much, I think, operating in the Swedish the Swedish case.

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I hope I thought that was my last point. But Eric Kleinberg, very much an inspiration.

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But another methodological point, which I think is I find interesting and fascinating, is this complex causality coming from from mills.

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So again, in the Swedish case, we have tended to look or maybe we don't want to speak about researchers studying Britain,

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but we've tended to look at institutions in isolation.

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So we want to study the prison. We want to study punishment, we want to study the police.

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We want to study this or this institution. We tend to study it in all the dynamics that are going on inside.

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Fascinating and complex, but those are sitting in relation to other institutions or fields, if you prefer.

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Field theory. And what I argue and write about in the book is that in Sweden,

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when we start to look at the welfare state in the entire interaction or this field with penal order,

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the criminal justice system and membership, which includes migration but also ethnic minorities,

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and also it includes ideas about worthiness that have nothing to do with ethnicity or migration.

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This has to do with being a good worker, a worthy a worthy citizen.

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So the membership category fraud. But when we bring these fields together or look at these interactions, this also changes our understanding.

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So the Nordic exceptionalism has tended to view look at the penal order and then see the welfare state and put them together.

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But they've actually looked at them separately. But when we start to see how they intersect with these combinations,

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that if you can see the kind of darkened, intersecting areas, these change the view of the whole.

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So this is also a way, in an analytical way into this problem to get a sense how these institutions work

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and what is basically going back 100 years to the development of the welfare state,

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the history of migration policy, understandings of how the criminal justice system is worked,

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that I argue that in order to understand this dramatic event,

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the border closing and these larger process of processes of restricted migration control,

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this again is really connected to this internal logic of the welfare state.

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But we need to understand the dynamics within that.

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There's a long view that the welfare state is the double side of policing and welfare.

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The state has this double side of taking care of the population but also of policing the population that this often goes hand in hand.

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This again, in Sweden there's been a very long history, not of a minimal welfare state and a high police state,

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but how these institutions, the welfare state and say the policing have worked together in tandem over time.

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A very long history right of state intervention going back to forced sterilisation to control of alcohol,

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to control of drugs for the better of the population, for everybody's in everybody's best interest.

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Also, I think this internal logic a point that may not be well appreciated,

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which I found I found a discovery in reading some of the historical records with this particular individual attachment to the welfare state.

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So we are a welfare state is written about, as you know, having really kind of some group solidarity.

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Everybody's the same. And this is why they're so generous. But it's not really the foundation of the welfare state, right?

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It's about individual liberation through the welfare state, freedom from dependencies, from the family, from the church, from your employer.

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These independence, these which impacted the individual,

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the individual then becomes very much attached to the well-being of the welfare state itself and the sustainability of that welfare state.

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Because you as a person individual in Sweden, it really matters, right,

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how well the state, the welfare state, how it survives, how it functions your own future.

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Right. In terms of your pension, it's very much tied to this well-functioning state,

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but there's very strong individual attachment to the welfare state itself.

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And so when it has come under threat,

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different kinds of political or social threats to its idea about sustainability and this is his take takes on a personal edge.

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So, you know, just in talking with with people who might say, well, I of course I am, you know, in favour of immigration, I'm not a racist.

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But the push comes to shove. They're going to choose the welfare state over the idea of some idea about human rights or human security.

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The welfare state is also looking historically as a national project.

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And this me from this point of view, it may seem obvious because we organise nation states and welfare states are within that framework.

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But at the time in the 1930s there was really an international workers movement and in Sweden there was a choice,

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a conflict about internationalisation, about a class struggle versus a national identity.

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And the Sweden just the historical the historical story here is that instead of making it about a class struggle,

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what was brilliant about the Social Democrats was they made it a national struggle.

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So again, their individual attachment is because the national identity is wrapped up in the welfare state.

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This is a source of pride that it has been generous, that it is affluent,

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that this is something you if you meet a Swede travelling somewhere or an academic, you may be familiar with this idea about the welfare state.

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It's a source of national identity, national pride.

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But it was a brilliant political manoeuvre because it got the entire population committed to this idea of sustaining itself for it,

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of contributing and of equalising social relations.

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This wasn't, say, in the United States, which was the means tested welfare state only the very poor and the unworthy.

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But this would be everybody. So this has implications because it's a a national project for everybody to equalise.

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This is a contemporary picture.

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So even some scholars and social critics will argue that Sweden is just caught up in this kind of neoliberal paradigm as well,

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and there's been transformation of the welfare state and retrenchment and neoliberal policies.

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But this has to be put into perspective, into into scope.

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There has been increased inequality, but it's happening around the margins.

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And this has to do with the very wealthy, with the top 1%.

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Their wealth has grown because of the tax policies, but the broad middle has maintained itself right in the spending,

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on the broad middle has maintained itself and the rates are the spending is comparable to what it was about 20 years ago.

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So there have been reforms. So one thing Michael hasn't done, the privatisation of schooling,

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privatisation in Sweden means that the government transfers the money they would have spent on a, I should say, state school.

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Right. So a state school receives a certain amount of money per pupil.

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Privatisation simply means that money that would have gone to the state school now goes to the what we call the free school or the private school.

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It's not that you as an individual pay anything. So it's not a separation in that way.

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It's it's the money is just moved into this private into a private into a private school,

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not without controversy, but it's also the scale of in the perspective.

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The welfare state is also very strong. If anybody loses their job tomorrow, there are protections and mechanisms in place.

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And this radically is very radically different than a place like the United States,

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which many people, millions of people do not actually have health care.

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There are not protections. Right. If they lose their job.

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So it is a there's been restructuring, but it has not been a full scale retract, retraction or retrenchment of the welfare state.

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And it is precisely this affluence and well-being that is so vital to the population that they want to maintain this wealth and this this affluence.

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But I know I said in another talk that this is not actually my neighbourhood right over there.

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On that on that I was surprised to see it in the paper because we still don't think of themselves as living in this kind of glittery wealth.

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But you know that this is a very affluent society.

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And the idea that you can take in people who are fleeing persecution and you know, rationally, I think it's very difficult to manage.

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So this idea of writing the welfare state is really central to individual attachment welfare,

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state welfare, state sustainability, that this is what drives a lot of these policies.

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We want to look out for it. This engine, right. This has brought prosperity, it brought development.

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It's brought prestige and status. We want to maintain this.

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So we're going to protect this bubble that we're in and really protect who has access to the bubble and who who doesn't.

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Because, again, this is a very high quality of life and it really matters who who enters and who has access.

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And that I make these arguments in the book that this is a a logic, which is, I think,

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maybe underappreciated, where equality can or well-being or affluence here can drive exclusion.

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That it's not that Swedes believe that people are unequal or that there's just this rampant inequality in society.

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And so we use the tools of criminal justice system to deal with inequality,

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although there's certainly a piece of that which part of driving this is that wanted to sustain this equality of well-being for everybody.

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In order to do that,

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we're going to make sure to not let everybody in because it's going to be a drain on on resources and identity who has access to that bubble.

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So looking inside the welfare state, trying to get this internal logic and understanding what it means to the people involved,

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I think it's also connected to a part of what we came out of.

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This was again, like the connection between the welfare state and how punishment or criminal justice or penal power operates.

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In this context. And in order to explain the border closing and larger restrictions, I developed this concept of penal nationalism.

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Now, the term itself, when Haney wrote about in the context of Eastern Europe, in Hungary, in Central Europe,

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trying to restore a sense of national sovereignty in the face of European Union integration.

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So she wrote about a similar process. I developed this term in the Swedish context, but I think it has broader implications.

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You argue about how and why these tools of criminal justice are being used to to do this work,

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right, to protect that bubble or to do the sorting of membership and belonging.

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Right. Who's going to have access? Who's going to make it inside the penal power here?

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Right. It's used not as a replacement for the welfare state, as we know from from the week the accounts work and others who write about neoliberalism,

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but rather penal powers used to advance the interests of the welfare state.

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So they often they are going together. And again, just a historical point.

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I stumbled upon this as well in the 1960s when you had labour migration in Sweden, booming economy,

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vast development, modernisation in migration, you also had an expanding prison population.

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And if we really thought that these worked in inverse relation, then we would have seen a decrease in the prison population at that time.

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But so in Sweden has a long history of these these these institutions working hand-in-hand.

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And as I said, right, this is really about welfare, state solvency for insiders to preserve Social Security.

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And then in this context, I think Social Security is has a higher value than human security.

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It's not a it's not a it's not an all or nothing.

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But when push comes to shove, again, they're going to the Swedish and Swedish government are going to opt for Social Security.

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And this word three comes from it's a Swedish word. It has a very broad meaning in Sweden, both economic security.

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So this idea, what we think about the welfare state providing protections in social well-being,

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but it has this, again, ideas about trust and attachment that you feel secure in your social relations.

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Then you can be free. If you feel secure, this is the way for individual liberty.

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So again, it's kind of the heart of what the welfare state is doing.

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It's providing the security for individual freedom and again, the ultimate value and driver here.

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So the government was basically willing to draw this fence.

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To protect who's inside and willing, and then we're willing to impose, I would say,

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this outward harm or impose insecurity on others in the process because they're holding on to that to that value.

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Pale nationalism, right, is also this important here, using people power to uphold the welfare state.

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It's not only about the welfare state sustainability, but it's the insiders,

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the membership who has access and the particular kind of people, rich people.

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So you have a long history, again, of non-citizens, non-members, some ethnic minorities, those with the least political power are the most vulnerable.

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Like I want to highlight here in Sweden, again, this is not a story only of or just of racial animus,

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because it also has had a long history of being open to migration.

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It's a duality, ambivalence, and there's different historical periods where they've been open and closed when the welfare state has been threatened.

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This is where we see this, these types of closures. Right.

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So penal nationalism, right. So the state powers operating to uphold the bubble,

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to protect the bubble for insiders and this use of criminal justice powers for being to respond to unwanted to mobility for nationalistic purposes.

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And here I was referencing Lin Haney's work because this nationalistic purposes I think is

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can be quite broad and this is where it can apply to different cases or different countries.

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So nationalistic purposes, what do we mean by that?

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And in Lynn Haney's work, it was about sovereignty, about many Eastern European states retaining their sovereignty in the face of EU identity.

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And Mary Bosworth has written extensively about this and Emma Kaufman in the

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British detention centres about being part of who is a citizen and who is not,

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what is British identity. So this context about identity of nationalistic purposes exist there in the Swedish.

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In the Nordic context, I said that the welfare state is what the national purpose is.

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So penal nationalism is not just reduced to welfare,

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state or welfare state nationalism or welfare chauvinism, if you if you're familiar with that term.

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But it's about upholding that, of course, it's related to identity.

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I think that border criminology and punishment studies have a lot to offer the understanding

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of migration or restrictive migration controls because it's particularly penal form of power.

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So that relying on coercive power at this point, I think, again,

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I'm not sure the government is quite grasp this, but this is imposing power over another's will is coercive.

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We're basically denying autonomy and to self-determination.

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And if we think about what democracies are right, this is supposed to be about the recognition and realisation of self-determining city and states.

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Other democratic states are well for states to block that are really posing challenges right to the ideas about democracy,

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which we'll return to at the end. But it's coercive.

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So in its in and many others have written about it's violent as well the imposition of penal harms.

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These are not administrative or neutral decisions. So there's much argument and debate in Sweden about, well, the government, of course,

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we have as a society, we have the right to decide who who's in our who makes up our population.

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Right. All democratic societies retain that. Right. It's but it's not a neutral decision about who's in and who's out.

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It's relying on the criminal justice, penal power, which is coercive.

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It's also penalising. It's effective. That's what makes it powerful.

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Penal power has been at the heart of state making since the early modern period.

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It has been the way that modern states establish themselves, right?

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If we think about not favour of first child to keep it in the contemporary period, it's using at the staff,

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the institutions, symbolic violence, material violence to impose right claims over the population.

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So mass migration challenges population like who who can be part of the population, who's on the territory.

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We're using the sorting mechanisms and again a lot of work I build on from border criminology to make these arguments.

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Again, it's about penal power because it involves censure and sanction, kind of a court taking from in the it.

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Then there is also written about this. The core of punishment or what makes something penal is the censure for wrongdoing.

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Right. The state says this is wrong or in the case of migration and border control,

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you are wrong, your actions are wrong, but you yourself are the wrong kind of person.

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Entry and sanction. So some kind of imposition or pain that's imposed could be confinement.

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It could be expulsion, but it's a sanction that gets imposed.

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So again, it's very powerful and effective. And we've in a place like Sweden, which thoroughly believes in the rule of law, it seems to be legitimate.

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Because. Oh, well, if they're caught up in the criminal justice system,

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while the state is a legitimate actor here, then kind of reinforces it reinforces its legitimacy.

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Penal powers, I said. Right. It's been central to state making. It has this structuring capacity to produce political authority.

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So this is, again, in these moments of transition, states are coming undone at the nation state.

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It is it is under threat with with migration flows, with economic flows.

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And one of its principal mechanisms here is this youth. So, again, this is probably what makes it successful.

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I'll just highlight here is while the censure and sanctuary censure and sanction aspect,

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this connects to the community capacity of the criminal justice system.

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It is sending messages, it's communicating worth right.

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And if you're not worthy, again, you're can be subject to this type of violence.

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The state. Right. I wouldn't say it has a monopoly, but it is a very powerful actor in representing reality.

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How do we understand what is legitimate? It often comes from the state,

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so using the tools of criminal justice system at the border is sending these communication mechanisms about who's right and who's wrong.

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And again, these are very the symbolic power comes from virtue.

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This can't be underestimated. It has a constitutive force in how we understand the world and how we act on the world.

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And Catherine, reacting incorrectly to divert it's making people illegal.

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This is a fantastic book, right?

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Which I think was an eye opener for me, where she really tracks the history of immigration law, say it's the law that makes people illegal.

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It's not that people are illegal. It's just with all these processes is making this illegality.

390
00:39:26,500 --> 00:39:36,610
Could the communicative capacity of the criminal justice system is representing reality in a way that benefits the interest of state in in Sweden,

391
00:39:36,610 --> 00:39:40,750
the way that it benefits the interests of poor will preserve the welfare state.

392
00:39:43,910 --> 00:39:47,020
The yes, the social faultlines here.

393
00:39:47,020 --> 00:39:51,669
Right. So who's most vulnerable to this? Right. Falls along the social fault lines.

394
00:39:51,670 --> 00:39:58,210
It's again, it's not a kind of all or nothing scenario. We have to actually look over time across different institutions, across groups,

395
00:39:58,510 --> 00:40:01,870
and look where the social fault lines are, who who is most vulnerable.

396
00:40:02,260 --> 00:40:07,660
I won't go into this now in an interest of time, but I have a chapter that goes through this,

397
00:40:07,690 --> 00:40:13,760
the institutional legal aspects of how this has occurred in Sweden.

398
00:40:14,170 --> 00:40:17,010
So Sweden, in the end, it basically say it has it.

399
00:40:17,030 --> 00:40:23,379
There's just there's been a problem with pluralism or an ambivalence around difference and belonging.

400
00:40:23,380 --> 00:40:29,440
At the heart of the welfare state, its foundation is cracked. On the one hand, it really believes everybody's equal.

401
00:40:29,740 --> 00:40:35,580
On the other hand, it's really hung on to this idea that some people are just more equal than others, right?

402
00:40:35,690 --> 00:40:41,440
Some are just more worthy than others. It's not that they're unequal, but we are more equal.

403
00:40:42,010 --> 00:40:47,680
And there's a it's a fractured it's it's a duality or fractured nature of that ambivalence.

404
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:53,839
And it's, again, a very long and I argue that ambivalence has never been I don't think it's been properly recognised.

405
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:58,990
So it hasn't been properly fixed. The social diagnosis hasn't unless they read my book.

406
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,890
You know, Ivan hasn't made the front page yet,

407
00:41:03,790 --> 00:41:11,080
but the diagnosis of what's really happening with the problems of pluralism and I'm focusing on membership on migration,

408
00:41:11,230 --> 00:41:16,030
but this also is true for religion, different religious differences in Sweden, right?

409
00:41:16,030 --> 00:41:24,520
So there's all across different kinds of groups. The ideas about what constitutes a plural society is it's challenging for that,

410
00:41:24,850 --> 00:41:30,040
for that society, for that population, excuse me, for that population degrees.

411
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:36,729
I have here five degrees of foreignness. I'll just highlight that here in Sweden again, it's there's a belief that everybody is equal.

412
00:41:36,730 --> 00:41:42,970
But if you come from the outside and newly arrived or migrant or you have foreign background,

413
00:41:43,240 --> 00:41:46,600
it's very difficult to ever shake off that foreign background.

414
00:41:46,900 --> 00:41:50,770
And it's not a source in Sweden of the hyphenated identity.

415
00:41:50,770 --> 00:41:54,820
This is not something of of pride. It's something of a conflict and an argument.

416
00:41:55,870 --> 00:42:01,599
And it's very difficult even for long term residents, even who have become citizens, who are citizens,

417
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:08,860
to have a shake off that sense that somehow they're still foreign, not quite belonging to the society.

418
00:42:08,860 --> 00:42:16,209
So there's a deep ambivalence there, which makes particular people more vulnerable to this penal power right.

419
00:42:16,210 --> 00:42:19,570
In the U.S., you think of the criminal justice tools.

420
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:25,680
So this is a slide from policing called policing the refugee crisis.

421
00:42:25,690 --> 00:42:32,500
So if we think about what we had asylum seekers coming in, we had the.

422
00:42:32,820 --> 00:42:36,540
Yes. They're at the border, meeting them, bringing them into reception centres.

423
00:42:36,870 --> 00:42:41,520
And I put this here both just to illustrate that, in fact, are where these criminal justice tools are being used.

424
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:45,720
But then also to highlight the communicative path of the criminal justice system.

425
00:42:45,990 --> 00:42:51,030
So this is the police rather than the Red Cross. This is the police rather than the migration agents.

426
00:42:51,060 --> 00:42:54,780
Why aren't the migration agents there escorting people?

427
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:57,840
Right. This is the police and they're highly visible.

428
00:42:58,110 --> 00:43:02,610
So you might say, well, they're providing security and they're going to bring them into the reception centre.

429
00:43:02,970 --> 00:43:11,060
Sweden is a country which had a very low visibility with policing and again a source of pride with the last few years with migration.

430
00:43:11,070 --> 00:43:16,530
This has changed and become much more visible at the border, the territory border,

431
00:43:16,530 --> 00:43:21,750
bringing in refugees or asylum seekers, but also in the city centre in the last few years.

432
00:43:22,050 --> 00:43:26,130
So checking for I.D., checking to see if you have a legal right to remain.

433
00:43:26,550 --> 00:43:29,610
And this is a program which was very controversial,

434
00:43:29,610 --> 00:43:38,780
which was basically some critics argue that how they would check randomly checked IDs to see if anyone had a legal right to remain in the country.

435
00:43:38,790 --> 00:43:45,210
They were looking for people with outstanding deportation orders. Well, this what was it a coincidence that everyone was foreign looking?

436
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,749
Or was it, you know, part of the policing strategy?

437
00:43:48,750 --> 00:43:54,420
And this this is if you've been to Stockholm, this is anti central in the central station at the heart of Sweden.

438
00:43:54,660 --> 00:44:00,000
In above is a big public square. So this is this isn't happening at the territorial border.

439
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:04,470
But that border control and policing of membership is occurring right in the in the city.

440
00:44:04,830 --> 00:44:09,330
The city centre. The increased use of confinement.

441
00:44:10,110 --> 00:44:14,160
So is this a prison or is this a detention centre?

442
00:44:17,010 --> 00:44:23,280
It's a it is a detention centre, but it doesn't look that much different than they make in a prison.

443
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:30,750
This is a detention centre for immigrant like people who have immigration violations and people who are being expelled from the country.

444
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,440
Sweden for a long time had very low numbers of people in detention centre.

445
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:38,129
But this is this has increased and they've been at maximum capacity.

446
00:44:38,130 --> 00:44:43,860
And so they've now put people who have expulsion orders in the prisons in a couple of spots in the prisons,

447
00:44:43,860 --> 00:44:50,040
and then some of those, not all of them, some of them have ended up in 23 hours confinement.

448
00:44:50,490 --> 00:44:58,760
Solitary confinement, not the image of the nice mild Nordic exceptionalism that we've come to take for granted.

449
00:44:58,780 --> 00:45:02,190
Just this piece, excuse me, on the confinement.

450
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:07,970
So this is you know, there's barbed wire at this one. You can't see barbed wire, but many of them have barbed wire around them.

451
00:45:07,980 --> 00:45:16,260
The security this high walls and concrete walls and those who study the prison, those who study detention centre can see some parallels.

452
00:45:16,260 --> 00:45:21,060
And again, Mary's written extensively about the ways detention centres are similar and the ways that they are different.

453
00:45:21,630 --> 00:45:27,060
But in Sweden I just highlight that there being the use of them is being increased in new ways.

454
00:45:27,690 --> 00:45:30,230
This is an older pattern of the foreign nationals.

455
00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:36,660
I have a chapter long discussion about all the empirical details about how those who are ethnic minorities,

456
00:45:37,110 --> 00:45:40,230
migrants, non-citizens ending up in the criminal justice system.

457
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:48,420
This has been within the traditional prison system percent foreign nationals, over 30% of the prison population.

458
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:57,150
And eviction. So this is another kind of border control use of these restrictive aspects.

459
00:45:57,390 --> 00:46:05,670
This is in relation to the Roma population, Roma who have come from Bulgaria and Romania, who are EU citizens.

460
00:46:06,570 --> 00:46:13,110
So they are not subjected to deportations, but they have been subjected to evictions on public order grounds.

461
00:46:13,110 --> 00:46:18,370
So I have a paper, a separate paper on Claudia Vagabonds where I take up that issue in much more detail.

462
00:46:18,390 --> 00:46:24,090
But this also highlights, I think, really at the core about who the welfare state is for.

463
00:46:24,690 --> 00:46:32,400
So you have very, very poor people coming from Romania and Bulgaria who are citizens of the EU,

464
00:46:32,730 --> 00:46:36,990
but they are treated as if they are disposable, don't belong.

465
00:46:37,020 --> 00:46:41,640
They have no access to any public resources.

466
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:47,010
In Sweden you have to have a person number in order to access the welfare state.

467
00:46:47,490 --> 00:46:54,000
And so the welfare state is highly developed. Right. If you're if you're an alcoholic, you've lost your job, you you beat your kids,

468
00:46:54,300 --> 00:46:58,900
that the welfare, the social services is what they can put you in, programs they can recorded.

469
00:46:58,900 --> 00:46:59,670
They can get you out.

470
00:46:59,910 --> 00:47:08,220
If you do not have a person number, if you're not registered legally living there, you cannot access any of that a homeless shelter.

471
00:47:08,550 --> 00:47:12,360
So EU citizens, they have a legal right to be there for three months,

472
00:47:12,690 --> 00:47:17,489
but they're not legally registered as residents and so they can't access any of those benefits.

473
00:47:17,490 --> 00:47:23,150
So this is it's very clear who the welfare state is is for in this context.

474
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:28,200
And they've been subjected to, you know, camp clearing and evictions.

475
00:47:28,980 --> 00:47:32,610
Removal from the territory. Right. And this these have these have increased.

476
00:47:32,610 --> 00:47:41,339
So the slide that I showed you with a policing membership downstairs, the checking IDs in the tunnel, but in the subway, metro, this is upstairs.

477
00:47:41,340 --> 00:47:48,090
Right? So it's a public square. So you have this kind of proliferation of these types of tools going on in the in the city centre.

478
00:47:50,870 --> 00:47:55,040
This is a I argue it in the book and I would argue here too,

479
00:47:55,040 --> 00:48:03,169
this is in relation to the Nordic exceptionalism piece that if we take into account this proliferation using of these criminal justice tools,

480
00:48:03,170 --> 00:48:05,600
right, to respond to problems of unwanted mobility.

481
00:48:05,870 --> 00:48:11,300
We really have to recalibrate, calibrate our understanding of how penal power is used in the Nordic context.

482
00:48:11,660 --> 00:48:15,940
And this is just to show the green pie chart here.

483
00:48:15,950 --> 00:48:20,330
This is expulsions, right in the blue is prison and the red is detention.

484
00:48:20,340 --> 00:48:26,030
So when other scholars have looked at the Nordic penal regime, they focussed on the prisons.

485
00:48:26,330 --> 00:48:30,020
But that's just that's a smaller part of this entire system.

486
00:48:30,410 --> 00:48:40,970
So if we can appreciate why how criminal justice tools are being used in this broader context of migration control, this will change, I think.

487
00:48:40,980 --> 00:48:44,660
I argue it changes our understanding of what that system is doing and who it is.

488
00:48:44,660 --> 00:48:47,930
Who is it for? So why does any of this matter?

489
00:48:48,950 --> 00:48:54,260
I think it matters. I mean, to understand this phenomenon, I mean, the dramatic events, I mean, why would we didn't do that?

490
00:48:54,950 --> 00:48:59,300
It's doing that to protect itself. Right. To preserve the welfare state.

491
00:49:00,530 --> 00:49:03,469
In terms of our understanding about the role of criminal justice system,

492
00:49:03,470 --> 00:49:07,740
I think this is also, again, incredibly important and something that we have to contribute.

493
00:49:07,740 --> 00:49:11,750
This is a deterrent, not neutral decisions, but nor is it just a power operation.

494
00:49:11,750 --> 00:49:18,110
It's a particular form of power. And in the Nordic context, we simply challenged this Nordic exceptionalism.

495
00:49:18,500 --> 00:49:20,329
These are not mild inhumane systems.

496
00:49:20,330 --> 00:49:28,190
There are certainly elements of mildness and humaneness, but there are illiberal elements within and infringes on liberty,

497
00:49:28,190 --> 00:49:33,830
self-determination and the pains and harms that are imposing insecurity on others

498
00:49:34,670 --> 00:49:40,010
and a willingness to impose insecurity on others to preserve preserve what's inside.

499
00:49:41,650 --> 00:49:46,600
Going outside of Sweden and thinking about European personality, the principles of European penology.

500
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:49,480
Well, these developments that are occurring here in other places.

501
00:49:49,720 --> 00:49:56,709
This also challenges something that we've taken for maybe taking for granted as especially European quality.

502
00:49:56,710 --> 00:50:03,880
In contrast to the, say, the American case, which we're known to be more restrictive to value human dignity should be inclusionary.

503
00:50:04,510 --> 00:50:14,290
But when we take into account these border control measures in in conjunction with the criminal justice system, this has taken on an expansive logic.

504
00:50:15,070 --> 00:50:18,910
These things are not retracting. They are expanding.

505
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:24,340
So there's more forms writing, detention, expanding, putting people in prison, new forms of policing.

506
00:50:24,580 --> 00:50:27,910
This is an expansive logic rather than a restrictive logic.

507
00:50:28,540 --> 00:50:38,350
It's also exclusionary and I would say based if it is based to some extent on a dehumanised view of the other.

508
00:50:38,770 --> 00:50:45,940
But in the process it further dehumanises right when we've subjected some of the some people who

509
00:50:45,940 --> 00:50:51,069
are seeking claiming their rights to political subjects when we subject them to this policing,

510
00:50:51,070 --> 00:50:59,360
this is also part of a dehumanising process. So it really questions this idea about human dignity and ideas about democracy.

511
00:50:59,430 --> 00:51:05,290
Right. So in Sweden, I didn't really develop this here, but there's also, I think, a troubling decoupling of crime and punishment.

512
00:51:05,650 --> 00:51:08,950
So I'm not talking about the criminalisation of migration.

513
00:51:08,950 --> 00:51:13,420
It's more the Penal Association of Migration, and it just skipped over the crime.

514
00:51:13,990 --> 00:51:22,720
Right. So it's subjecting migration violation, those who are being exposed to detention, but also with expulsion.

515
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:25,600
And against we as a society based on the rule of law.

516
00:51:25,630 --> 00:51:31,150
This is a high value where in the society, when we start to decouple what the justice system is based on,

517
00:51:31,150 --> 00:51:34,760
this can be trouble for democracy in a political terms.

518
00:51:34,780 --> 00:51:39,190
The violation of the parity principle, I think, is really striking and problematic.

519
00:51:39,580 --> 00:51:43,030
So this is not only true in Sweden, but this is a true, I think, across the board.

520
00:51:43,270 --> 00:51:51,549
The parity principle is those who are most affected by a policy policing, prison, expulsion, refugee policy.

521
00:51:51,550 --> 00:51:55,840
They should have a say a fair say in the development of those policies.

522
00:51:56,350 --> 00:52:01,179
And what we see in the contemporary situation is those who are most affected, asylum seekers,

523
00:52:01,180 --> 00:52:07,690
people on the move have the least ability to actually implement, implement and right those policies.

524
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:15,040
They are in a political vacuum. Now, some migration scholars might say, well, they assert their political subjectivity by entering the territory.

525
00:52:15,700 --> 00:52:19,000
Well, the state then says you've entered the territory, now you must leave.

526
00:52:19,450 --> 00:52:28,989
So it hasn't changed the policies. And there's a huge political vacuum there in terms of how refugees are asylum seekers can impact and change.

527
00:52:28,990 --> 00:52:34,210
And I have a chapter on civil society, no less of an answer of answer in the in the break.

528
00:52:34,720 --> 00:52:40,750
So just in closing, I think it matters for a lot of different reasons, but just kind of thinking about implications for the future.

529
00:52:41,170 --> 00:52:45,729
So these these policies, this integration of criminal justice with border control,

530
00:52:45,730 --> 00:52:52,530
with preservation of the welfare state, this has some problems for democracy, but it can lead to destabilising.

531
00:52:52,530 --> 00:53:00,460
It is violation of the crime and punishment, violation of the parity principle, going against democratic principles of equality,

532
00:53:01,390 --> 00:53:07,030
the proliferation of political vacuums in the lap that this is allowed to go on.

533
00:53:07,250 --> 00:53:11,200
But I also think it spells trouble for how democracy stabilise themselves.

534
00:53:11,620 --> 00:53:18,560
And then there are some outstanding comparative questions. How does Sweden, you know, how does it compare to other countries?

535
00:53:18,580 --> 00:53:25,430
Is this better or different? Is it? What are the transnational or global forces going on within Sweden?

536
00:53:25,450 --> 00:53:28,870
So Sweden is not alone in this. That's not the argument.

537
00:53:28,870 --> 00:53:33,940
But my idea my argument in my case was to try to understand what makes Sweden tick.

538
00:53:34,210 --> 00:53:40,120
What's meaningful to the people involved. So it doesn't mean that they are not impacted by global forces,

539
00:53:40,420 --> 00:53:47,170
but that the meaning itself tends to be intrinsic of how they understand their society, what their values, what their values are.

540
00:53:47,650 --> 00:53:53,049
So it's kind of a question for kind of leading off into my next project to kind of take up

541
00:53:53,050 --> 00:54:00,340
some of these outstanding issues that I did not answer that are not answer in the book,

542
00:54:00,610 --> 00:54:04,840
but many other ones were. So thank you very much.

543
00:54:05,020 --> 00:54:05,290
Thank you.