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My my role now is to hopefully spark a lively debate and discussions that bounce off those two

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fantastic presentations and I can see in the Q&A we're starting to get some questions coming through.

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We've got about 15 minutes,

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so I will try and ask each of the speakers to kind of give quite succinct answers and then we can try and get through as many of the questions we can.

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Can I just provoke a question to both of you and sort of use desperately just to sort of ask the first question,

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which is when I look at you this year and your last questions you you were

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talking about some of the return on investment almost question both governments,

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like many governments around the world, are clearly setting, you know, almost wartime levels of public debt in terms of government debt.

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So clearly, there is going to be a huge pressure to see return on investment.

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I guess the question to both of you, I can see this is both an opportunity for science and technology and research and innovation,

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but also want all of the sort of the challenges to that.

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So I'll pass to you first and then and then thoughtfully. Sure.

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So some of these metrics were for for U.S. laboratories, for private laboratories are required by statute.

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So we have to every single research agency has to report, for example, a number of inventions,

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number of patents, a number of collaborations, the amount of royalty collected.

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And that's one way that we can have metrics that are activity driven, right?

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But these metrics are not impact driven. They really don't talk about the impact as much as they talk about the activity.

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One of the things that we have found is that so if you were to divide this, you know,

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the US portfolio, the hundred fifty billion dollars that goes into the federal R&D into intramural,

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which is research that gets done at the agencies by federal employees and

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extramural money that's given to universities and nonprofits to do the research.

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What you'll see is that we have a lot of activity metrics right on the federal side, on the intramural side, and we have a lot of people.

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We have some impact metrics on the extramural side, but we don't have in the way that would truly give you a complete picture and

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impact study that would reflect all of the USGS contributions in the R&D arena.

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We have studies, for example. Yes, that has been done and its effect on the economy or the fact that some of the some of

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the areas of research in the US government have spurred actually industries right.

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But we haven't done impact studies on those as much as we have done on the real side.

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Conversely, we have a lot of activity metrics utterly, yes.

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So I agree. Having really convincing indicators for all on government investment decisions,

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I think is crucial and they are really difficult to get high quality ones in the research innovation system particularly dynamically.

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And the relationship between the inputs and the impact of real outcomes at the other end is quite complicated.

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And so although there are incredibly robust arguments that demonstrate that public sector investment

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really does both crowd in private sector investment and drive up productivity and all of these things,

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the the the instant returns are definitely what is very hard to do that falls.

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And so essentially the arguments that we need to be making all this once in a generation opportunity,

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in the context of the instability of the pandemic and economic instability to invest in that long for high quality,

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high productivity economy, which will only come from or an innovation that and it's I agree it's incredibly challenging

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to make because it's in the context of massive national debt and and social inequality.

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So there's an obvious desire to invest much more straightforwardly in in short term things.

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But these short term things like short term and they will not last and they will not build the long term.

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Ambitions of a more equal and inclusive innovation led economy,

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which is a positive feedback loop that it will build on itself unless you start that feedback and you will go nowhere.

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So it's a it's a moment of it's really a key moment of opportunity to shift to that long term.

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Long term, productive, inclusive economy rather than a short term approach, which has attractions.

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You can see why it's attractive and it's not. It's just people that tend to propose that we need.

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So it's time to do our best to make sure that it's an investment in the future.

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Excellent. Thank you. I've got one question from the audience.

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We've obviously talked today about international collaboration, in particular focussing on the opportunities between the UK and the US.

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And there's been a lot of discussion actually and results of the G7 meeting about

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international collaboration in partnership with the rest parts of the world,

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especially on vaccine taste.

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I wonder what both of you thought about and the sort of international outlook and how we sort of almost use research and innovation,

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science and technology for good on a global stage?

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We're meant to do this to a new lead, the batting this time.

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So this is a number of lines for international collaboration and as a funding agency, we we we have this issue in this one.

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On the one hand,

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there's the researchers and innovators and folks who are very motivated to collaborate to access the best ideas that there are around the world,

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and that looks at what drives something that's really important and and builds

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networks internationally that have both direct and indirect consequences,

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incredible cooperation, all the things we need to foster. We need to do that in a way that is mindful security talks.

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And that's in some ways a particularly complex part of the equation to navigate because it is very spontaneous and Bottom-Up generated.

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And then there's something that you can think of is more top down where there are a national priorities,

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either to build specific collaborations or to drive particular on all objectives.

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And from that again,

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I think this is a very interesting navigation between where a bunch of countries who are very aligned values and interests in a particular area.

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How can we most effectively use our on joint assets,

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both in terms of public investments and expertise and infrastructures to move all the benefits forward?

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That's great. But then there's a huge amount of discussion about just how can you use these research and innovation collaborations

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in the context of both nations with humans trying to build relationships and investigate the alignment of values?

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And that's what's also interesting domain to explore because again, balancing the science and innovation objectives,

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we've actually have something that's more of a diplomatic objective.

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And and how one carefully marries these things.

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But I think we, as I said this from funders of research,

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innovation and mission collaborations are all in constantly trying to balance these various priorities,

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particularly again in the context of specific budget and how you decide to invest them to meet all of these multiple pages is quite so much.

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Definitely us. I agree wholeheartedly.

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I think it's a delicate balance of trying to. This is science diplomacy at its best, right?

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Where we are, we are doing a pandemic this. There's nothing more precious than human life.

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And to want to protect that using the results of R&D, be it public or private.

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I think it's it's it's a goal of everyone. But how do you how do you balance that against other R&D considerations?

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And you know, you know, a debate that has come up prior to the G7 was, you know, what was that?

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What was the world of intellectual property? And how do we how do we look at that?

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And does it does it even? Should we be talking about that, right?

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So it's it's a delicate balance between what science is there to do, which is to do good right?

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And and what does what are the larger implications should there be another pandemic?

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And where does one draw the line, even if it's clear in this case?

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Are there other cases that we would need to? We would need to think about this delicate balance.

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But but but I also do know that during the G7,

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there was the commitment that was reiterated in very specific terms about reaching out and making sure that countries are committed.

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The G7 countries are committed to to providing vaccines to other countries as well.

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So, yeah, delicately well put by both of you.

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I'm just with five minutes to go my my e-mail questions coming in, but I would just like both of you to just help me set up the breakout sessions.

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And we've we've we've tasked this esteemed audience to think about both the opportunities and challenges

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from international collaboration and and and I'm hopefully going put some words in your mouth,

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but it feels to me that both of you have all very eloquently articulated.

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Actually, this is an immensely exciting time when governments are really putting us.

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Both governments are putting a spotlight on this on this agenda, both of science, research technology.

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It's also about opportunities for collaboration, both at home and abroad.

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I guess my hope is that both the breakout groups will give you lots of ideas.

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I guess the might my ask of you is what do you want?

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What would you like to hear from those groups? You know all the. Are you looking for more ideas?

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Are you looking for radical ideas? Are you looking for?

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But also, do you want to hear about some of the challenges?

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Invariably, these could be very closed questions, and so I'm hoping that you will elaborate a little bit.

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But I it feels to me that there is a lot of opportunities here, but it will require us to probably think differently, act differently.

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Over to you. I'll start with our colleagues from the US and Iceland to wrap up.

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So I certainly would be very interested in hearing about the challenges and and to be able to separate what challenges or myths,

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because sometimes we think something is a challenge because it wasn't done before.

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We believe that it can't be done right. So what are the myths in the challenge category and what are the actual challenges?

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What are the things that we actually need to think about? What are the, you know, are these challenges that are so to give you an example,

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you know, there is there is belief on funding that most funding cannot be.

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There is funding that is within a certain jurisdiction. So, you know, you know, agencies that fund within a certain jurisdiction.

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Is that necessarily the case? Can one collaborate if one is a is not combat jurisdiction, they might not be the grant recipient.

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But does that mean they can collaborate? And the answer is sometimes yes, sometimes no.

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So to make sure that we limit the scope of our challenges to what the challenges actually are,

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rather than to expand it to include the things that might not be.

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So that would be my ask do not not just identify them,

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but maybe even explore what are true challenges and what are myths or things that we culturally believe in in the in the R&D,

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in the R&D world and might not necessarily be a hindrance or could be worked out?

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Absolutely, I would. I would agree with that. And I think another one of the reasons this is an exciting time and it's exciting

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for all kinds of things are extraordinary opportunities in research innovation,

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just amazing breakthroughs and and and new tools and technologies.

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Huge at what's the government alignment research innovation is crucial.

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That's the kind of massive instability caused by the pandemic, which allows for the first and the change in a very positive way.

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And I think the other thing that we've learnt from the pandemic is exactly that a lot of our assumptions and incense and if we want to.

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And so taking that moment of opportunity, I think, is great.

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But so, yes, to do everything already suggested in the context of challenges.

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But I'm also very I would be also interested in opportunities that specific opportunities that people

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see that we can with the commission and the how you how you do the job that we've all talked about,

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how you manage to balance some of the amazing ambitions for collaboration with the concerns about security,

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but anything that associated with this lack of bedtimes?

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Excellent. Well, thank you to you both. And this has been a fantastic session in terms of insights and others.

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I'm going to on behalf of both the conference organisers and all the delegates here today.

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Thank you for your presentations and your insights.

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And I will I will ask you now you can both segments successfully kind of exit off the stage, but thank you to you both.

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If if we wrote the Oxford College of Choice,

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we would have been collecting you and saying thank you very much and inviting you for a drink at some point.

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But hopefully we can do that next year. So thank you very much, device. And then I'll pick up the second.

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I'll set up the breakout session, so thank you. Thank you.