1 00:00:00,300 --> 00:00:07,230 The executive director of HDFC and the Science and Technology Facilities Council, so, yeah, thank you. 2 00:00:07,230 --> 00:00:10,200 Let's make sure it still stands for what I thought. 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:19,080 And it's based down the road at Harwell, so we've worked together on many things around Oxfordshire as well as things on science. 4 00:00:19,080 --> 00:00:22,620 So I'm going to allow you to take over now. I'm going to sit down and leave you to it. 5 00:00:22,620 --> 00:00:32,250 So thank you. Thank you. And so I have to say initially when when Phil and Helen told me about this conference, I thought it sounded really exciting. 6 00:00:32,250 --> 00:00:38,520 And then they said, we'd like you to cherish a session. And it's what our intermediaries for. 7 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,220 And I thought, Gosh, that's a little bit provocative. 8 00:00:41,220 --> 00:00:46,200 And then I looked at it again, and it turns out what intermediaries are for was actually the title, 9 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:52,200 so perhaps slightly less combative than than than I initially thought. 10 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:58,020 So this afternoon, I'm joined by Stuart Martin, who's the CEO of the Satellite Applications Catapult. 11 00:00:58,020 --> 00:01:05,820 It's also based at Harwell, Simon Andrews, who's executive director of Fraunhofer UK, 12 00:01:05,820 --> 00:01:11,430 and Jay Walsh for his vice president for research at Northwestern University. 13 00:01:11,430 --> 00:01:17,550 So I'm going to give everyone the chance to introduce themselves briefly and then 14 00:01:17,550 --> 00:01:22,530 given that I thought this was going to be quite an interactive and combative session. 15 00:01:22,530 --> 00:01:29,700 We're going to open the discussion up for questions or challenges or comments from the floor. 16 00:01:29,700 --> 00:01:41,070 So as Jill said, I'm from the Science and Technology Facilities Council, so we're part of the relatively recently formed UK research and innovation. 17 00:01:41,070 --> 00:01:46,470 And our role is really to fund big science. So whether that's particle physics, nuclear physics, 18 00:01:46,470 --> 00:01:55,230 astronomy in the U.K. universities or international facilities, and we also are the stewards of the national labs. 19 00:01:55,230 --> 00:02:05,910 So these are the big national science infrastructures, which are too large for any one institution to to own and manage. 20 00:02:05,910 --> 00:02:14,670 And really, the formation of U.K. cry for me where we were bringing together all of these organisations who were going to have a single voice for U.K. 21 00:02:14,670 --> 00:02:24,070 science and threw up some really exciting opportunities and gave us the opportunity to potentially tackle some of these big challenges. 22 00:02:24,070 --> 00:02:32,670 So one of the first things that that we started to think about was, well, how how can you describe, you know, a single voice for UK science? 23 00:02:32,670 --> 00:02:38,220 So that sees that opportunity to talk to our international colleagues about how 24 00:02:38,220 --> 00:02:42,030 you describe the U.K. landscape and you sit down to do that and you think, 25 00:02:42,030 --> 00:02:47,370 gosh, it's actually quite complicated. There's lots of bits to it. 26 00:02:47,370 --> 00:02:50,010 How do they all linked together? 27 00:02:50,010 --> 00:02:58,110 And I suppose when you're on the inside of these structures, you often don't don't see how difficult that can look from the outside. 28 00:02:58,110 --> 00:03:06,930 And we also talked about developing a roadmap on the floor for the research infrastructures in the U.K. across all disciplines. 29 00:03:06,930 --> 00:03:10,350 So again, how can you bring that complexity together? 30 00:03:10,350 --> 00:03:16,440 And one of the other opportunities that we looked at was, Oh, we we can we can talk to big corporates about what we can do with them. 31 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:26,430 And very quickly, we started to realise actually that these are very meaty questions to to to to try and represent in a coherent way. 32 00:03:26,430 --> 00:03:31,140 And for me, it really started to highlight some of the benefits of working with intermediaries because they can 33 00:03:31,140 --> 00:03:39,660 act as a focal point or a beacon in a particular sector or in a particular area and help cut through, 34 00:03:39,660 --> 00:03:49,290 I think, some of that complexity. I think there's also that sense sometimes of of shared mission within a particular area, 35 00:03:49,290 --> 00:03:56,100 which is very hard to to bring when you're when you're trying to get people from very 36 00:03:56,100 --> 00:04:01,530 different disciplines to work together and have that sort of single coherent voice. 37 00:04:01,530 --> 00:04:08,640 So for me, that that that that changed my thinking about intermediaries and how we could perhaps better use them. 38 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:16,650 So with that, I'm going to hand over to T.J. to to help to for him to introduce his role and and also 39 00:04:16,650 --> 00:04:21,910 maybe give us some thoughts on how he thinks the intermediaries fit into this ecosystem. Sure. 40 00:04:21,910 --> 00:04:25,260 So I'm J. Well, I'm certainly at Northwestern University, 41 00:04:25,260 --> 00:04:35,610 but part of the reason to be on this panel is I'm on the board at Annexe D, which is a manufacturing by times. 42 00:04:35,610 --> 00:04:43,980 Digital is what it stands for. It previously was called the Digital Manufacturing and Design Innovation Institute. 43 00:04:43,980 --> 00:04:52,770 That was a pretty big mouthful. So in the branding exercise more recently, it's been changed to just max. 44 00:04:52,770 --> 00:04:59,950 So that's the intermediary I'm going to talk about here. I would also say that I'm also I've been on the board for you, mentioned national. 45 00:04:59,950 --> 00:05:06,670 Labs have been on the board at Argonne National Lab, which is one of the Department of Energy National Labs. 46 00:05:06,670 --> 00:05:16,580 I've been on that board for about 12 years now and that's another intermediary that, you know, if we if we have time later, we can talk about. 47 00:05:16,580 --> 00:05:30,420 So what Copan Copeland talked quite a bit about the manufacturing, the Manufacturing USA institute, which one of them is next. 48 00:05:30,420 --> 00:05:36,190 The concept in the states is certainly that manufacturing affects every sector of the U.S. economy, 49 00:05:36,190 --> 00:05:43,300 and I would say certainly for this audience, it affects every sector of the global economy. 50 00:05:43,300 --> 00:05:55,660 And Steve focuses on advanced manufacturing and the whole actually the whole system of of institutes across manufacturing. 51 00:05:55,660 --> 00:06:05,350 USA looks at advanced manufacturing as the engine for economic prosperity and as the foundation for national security. 52 00:06:05,350 --> 00:06:13,240 So those are the two sort of driving positions for this entire endeavour, 53 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:18,100 and they're looking for new manufacturing methods and production of new products. 54 00:06:18,100 --> 00:06:27,550 So processes and products, which is what engineers do, which is my background originally and in all, I'm for all of these institutes. 55 00:06:27,550 --> 00:06:34,630 The idea is to increase productivity, to enable new products and actually to create new industries. 56 00:06:34,630 --> 00:06:42,010 So there are three goals. New technologies workforce development is an important part of this and recognise 57 00:06:42,010 --> 00:06:49,210 the importance of having people who can actually drive this manufacturing. And there's a significant component of supply chain. 58 00:06:49,210 --> 00:06:50,950 So if you're a major manufacturer, 59 00:06:50,950 --> 00:06:58,540 oftentimes you're an assembler and you have this deep supply chain and you have to have your new processes, your new materials. 60 00:06:58,540 --> 00:07:06,850 And in the case of next, where it's very digital, you have to have the digital technology to drive down through the entire ecosystem. 61 00:07:06,850 --> 00:07:09,010 This started in 2011. 62 00:07:09,010 --> 00:07:18,520 This whole system started in 2011, when the President's Council and Advisors on Science and Technology, which is known in the U.S. as PCAST, 63 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:22,390 came out with a report on advanced manufacturing partnerships that eventually 64 00:07:22,390 --> 00:07:26,770 led to a network which eventually led to the Manufacturing USA initiatives. 65 00:07:26,770 --> 00:07:32,680 And I've skipped a whole bunch of steps in there. There are now 14 institutes. 66 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:38,260 Eight of them are funded through the Department of Defence, hence the national security component. 67 00:07:38,260 --> 00:07:44,050 Five of them through the Department of Energy and one of them through the Department of of Commerce. 68 00:07:44,050 --> 00:07:49,720 There's been about $3 billion of investment in the last five years in that 69 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:55,840 one billion from the government and two billion from companies from industry. 70 00:07:55,840 --> 00:08:04,930 There are about six hundred thousand six hundred companies, universities and not for profits involved and important in the United States. 71 00:08:04,930 --> 00:08:08,920 Is this forty four states that are involved in this whole process? 72 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:13,870 So we had a few senators along the way. Not that that's important. 73 00:08:13,870 --> 00:08:20,500 Just saying there are three major goals and I could go into deep detail on this given the time I'm going to cut it short and 74 00:08:20,500 --> 00:08:28,390 just say the first goal is to develop the new manufacturing technologies that involve significant public private partnerships. 75 00:08:28,390 --> 00:08:37,540 And when I say significant, I can say for the case of my study that was started by universities. 76 00:08:37,540 --> 00:08:44,830 There were three universities in Chicago, the University of Chicago and University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and Northwestern. 77 00:08:44,830 --> 00:08:57,130 We got together as a consortium to put together the proposal that brought in those digital manufacturing institute, 78 00:08:57,130 --> 00:09:02,740 and I would say it's been if I wanted to be provocative, I would use the word hijacked. 79 00:09:02,740 --> 00:09:10,210 If I wanted to be collaborative, I would say it was now being driven by by industry. 80 00:09:10,210 --> 00:09:13,540 It is really industry driven at this point. 81 00:09:13,540 --> 00:09:24,040 The academics are in there for the research side of things, but industry sees the huge value in bringing together a consortium of of industries. 82 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:33,580 And in particular, each of those major players has supply chain folks who are common to to themselves to each other. 83 00:09:33,580 --> 00:09:37,300 So they're really helping to build this consortium across this. 84 00:09:37,300 --> 00:09:44,380 So there's these new manufacturing technologies. They recognise that workforce development is absolutely vital, 85 00:09:44,380 --> 00:09:53,320 especially as you drive it down through the small and medium sized companies that are very important to that supply chain. 86 00:09:53,320 --> 00:10:00,390 And talking about that supply chain, there's been a recognition by the federal government that. 87 00:10:00,390 --> 00:10:09,900 Frankly, we lost a lot of manufacturing capabilities in the 80s and 90s and early 2000s, and we really want to build that back up. 88 00:10:09,900 --> 00:10:14,400 That's important not only for prosperity, but frankly for national security. 89 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:19,680 It's important that some of these products are not in the supply chain or not produced by, 90 00:10:19,680 --> 00:10:24,060 let's just say, certain companies or countries across the aisle across the globe. 91 00:10:24,060 --> 00:10:31,740 So it's a matter of pulling the supply chain back in. There's also a cybersecurity component to this. 92 00:10:31,740 --> 00:10:33,270 This is digital manufacturing. 93 00:10:33,270 --> 00:10:41,010 You can imagine somebody hacking in and changing a widget that affects your aeroplane engine, and that wouldn't necessarily go too well. 94 00:10:41,010 --> 00:10:47,970 So the small companies do not have the infrastructure to be able to do the cybersecurity 95 00:10:47,970 --> 00:10:52,920 that is necessary for digital manufacturing to be driven down through the supply chain. 96 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:58,620 The big companies and the government recognise this and are putting in a lot of effort for that supply chain. 97 00:10:58,620 --> 00:11:02,250 So what are intermediaries for the intermediaries? 98 00:11:02,250 --> 00:11:14,100 Pull together this consortium and recognise common needs across all of the components of the consortium and have in certainly in the case of MSD, 99 00:11:14,100 --> 00:11:24,000 have added significant value by bringing together these companies who are now frankly really running the show at in the next day. 100 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,060 So my short version? Great. Thank you very much. 101 00:11:27,060 --> 00:11:34,530 And this, I'm sure, is a lot in that that people will will want to pick up on one hand over to Stuart to tell us a bit about the catapult. 102 00:11:34,530 --> 00:11:41,940 OK, thank you very much, Kate. Someone named Stuart Martin. I'm the chief executive of an organisation called the Satellite Applications Catapult. 103 00:11:41,940 --> 00:11:50,280 As Kate said down in the hall, well, just about 20 miles from here, we will set up just over six years ago as part of a network of catapults, 104 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:54,840 all intermediaries in different technology centres and different technology sectors. 105 00:11:54,840 --> 00:12:05,280 And they couple things from life sciences through to digital technologies, offshore wind energy and, you know, complete range of activities. 106 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:09,720 And our mission. So in a sense, you know, what are we for answering? 107 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:21,120 The question is to ensure the maximum economic benefit derives to the UK from these new technologies as they are starting to emerge. 108 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:28,200 And that's, you know, in our case, it's satellite applications making sure that we are as a nation taking as much 109 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:34,770 advantage as we can from using satellites to deliver services right across the economy, 110 00:12:34,770 --> 00:12:40,500 and also that the nascent industry delivering those services gets anchored here in the UK. 111 00:12:40,500 --> 00:12:45,240 So that sort of our mission. So I'd just this by way of introduction, 112 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:52,110 I was going to make just sort of three top level statements about what I think the role of intermediaries are. 113 00:12:52,110 --> 00:12:57,930 And then I'll reference the catapult in particular to to to illustrate those points. 114 00:12:57,930 --> 00:13:01,620 And so the first of those conscious of who my audience is, 115 00:13:01,620 --> 00:13:08,400 so bear with me for for a moment is that actually the intermediary intermediaries are the only organisations 116 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:17,730 who are actually motivated to maximise the amount that is invested into the commercialisation of research. 117 00:13:17,730 --> 00:13:26,670 And that's not to say that sort of the business end or the so the university end, they don't see that activity as important for us. 118 00:13:26,670 --> 00:13:33,030 It is our reason to exist, and I think that's actually quite an important role for intermediaries that we all know. 119 00:13:33,030 --> 00:13:42,060 All the economic analysis tells us that the more a nation spends on on this research on that, the sort that the military innovation, 120 00:13:42,060 --> 00:13:48,180 commercialisation research, the more the economy will benefit from it, and that's a core purpose for the intermediaries. 121 00:13:48,180 --> 00:13:52,380 And so I think that's an important thing to recognise. 122 00:13:52,380 --> 00:14:02,070 The second point I was going to make is that innovation is not just about technology, either, it's not just about commercialisation of research. 123 00:14:02,070 --> 00:14:12,330 The barriers to taking up the technology or the reasons why technology don't find a market are many and varied, and they can vary by sector. 124 00:14:12,330 --> 00:14:18,810 And they include things like regulation, access to finance, behaviour of incumbents, 125 00:14:18,810 --> 00:14:23,050 the way that people do procurement or the way the industries are organised. 126 00:14:23,050 --> 00:14:30,870 These can all be impediments to to the to the take up of technology and to technology finding a market. 127 00:14:30,870 --> 00:14:35,280 So whilst on the one hand, supporting the industries, providing the technology is important. 128 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,820 All that sort of market shaping the environment, shaking, shaping, 129 00:14:38,820 --> 00:14:49,680 which is creating an accepting environment for those technologies to arrive into is is a really important piece of work that the intermediaries do. 130 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:54,060 And the most important part of that is so important have kind of made it. 131 00:14:54,060 --> 00:14:59,730 My third point is in the challenge of innovation adoption. 132 00:14:59,730 --> 00:15:05,200 We tend to think about innovation and commercialisation as happening entirely on the supply side, 133 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:12,900 it's all about helping companies take new products to market and then the market itself will take care of itself. 134 00:15:12,900 --> 00:15:20,640 Certainly, our experience is that it doesn't work like that. You need to work equally hard on the demand side of innovation as well. 135 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:26,100 Working with those organisations who can potentially take advantage of the new technology, 136 00:15:26,100 --> 00:15:30,120 helping them become aware that technology is coming through that they can use, 137 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:36,150 helping them become aware of how they can use it and and particularly in the space sector. 138 00:15:36,150 --> 00:15:41,850 Now we find that obviously this is something that businesses try and do, that they'll market their new technology. 139 00:15:41,850 --> 00:15:47,400 But there is quite a lot of suspicion, sometimes on the demand side towards technology coming through, 140 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,210 particularly when they're talking with the businesses that are trying to sell it. 141 00:15:51,210 --> 00:15:59,280 And the intermediaries can act as a as a helpful friend in helping them understand, helping them get ready for it, 142 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:05,250 make sense of what they're being sold and whether or not it really is going to deliver the benefits that they're being told about. 143 00:16:05,250 --> 00:16:18,030 And so we can sort of de-risk that whole migration process on onto new technologies for for new for customers who are taking advantage of that. 144 00:16:18,030 --> 00:16:27,930 I mean, one example that I'll give for where that's been particularly important for us is that we've been working on for a long time. 145 00:16:27,930 --> 00:16:37,230 And in fact, now we've we spun out a company that focuses on it using satellite data to help tackle illegal fishing going on all around the world. 146 00:16:37,230 --> 00:16:44,730 And so it's quite it's quite a straightforward system to actually monitor what's going on on the oceans and using machine learning. 147 00:16:44,730 --> 00:16:52,560 You can, you know, you can quickly derive a lot of information about behaviours of vessels, what what it is exactly that they're doing. 148 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:58,320 Do they have licences for it? Are they fishing in the right locations? All those sorts of things. 149 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:04,890 But the challenge is the regulatory environment that that all sits in and can provide all this evidence. 150 00:17:04,890 --> 00:17:06,510 But if you haven't got the regulatory environment, 151 00:17:06,510 --> 00:17:11,040 there's going to be able to use that evidence to support prosecution or remove licences and all those sorts of things, 152 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:16,260 and it's not delivering any value. So we spend a lot of time working with the Thai government in particular. 153 00:17:16,260 --> 00:17:26,010 The Thai government was yellow carded by the EU about five years ago, which basically telling them unless you sort out your fisheries industries, 154 00:17:26,010 --> 00:17:31,500 you're going to be banned from selling your product into European markets. 155 00:17:31,500 --> 00:17:36,090 And this is a major part of the Thai economy, and obviously it was. 156 00:17:36,090 --> 00:17:45,540 They are some of the biggest producers of a fisheries product around the world, so it was also a real risk to the European supermarket industry. 157 00:17:45,540 --> 00:17:55,290 So we were able to corral a group of the of the the supermarket industry players in it across Europe to help fund the piece of work going into Thai, 158 00:17:55,290 --> 00:18:01,080 helping advise the government about how to restructure all their regulations and all their their monitoring programme. 159 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:08,610 So they could then take advantage of this technology and then meet the European requirement to reform their industry. 160 00:18:08,610 --> 00:18:13,830 And just in the last few months, they've now have that yellow card removed, so that risk is gone away. 161 00:18:13,830 --> 00:18:16,410 And we have a new customer for us now. 162 00:18:16,410 --> 00:18:26,610 So it's, you know, that's an example of the sort of things that intermediaries can do that I don't think anyone else realistically can. 163 00:18:26,610 --> 00:18:34,920 Great. Thank you very much, Gerrit. Simon, do you want to tell us what the phone offers and thanks Kate, particularly in the U.K., I guess. 164 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:41,250 Good afternoon, everyone. My name's Simon Cowell. A lovely day to be here in Oxford and absolute delight and nice. 165 00:18:41,250 --> 00:18:44,370 Nice to be able to speak to you. 166 00:18:44,370 --> 00:18:50,640 I thought it was going to be quite a controversial question, so I have a very simple answer from from our point of view. 167 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:58,820 Intermediaries are there to provide professional applied research and development services for industry. 168 00:18:58,820 --> 00:19:06,720 That's it. That's what we do. We provide professional applied R&D services for industry, 169 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:12,120 so we could be nice up at the top level and say that's what economic benefit and societal benefit were not for profit. 170 00:19:12,120 --> 00:19:14,010 But that's really what it's all about. 171 00:19:14,010 --> 00:19:22,980 So we had a particular type of intermediary where a not for profit research and technology organisation like the catapults. 172 00:19:22,980 --> 00:19:28,410 But let's put a wee bit of context around intermediary if a can, a kind of case that was going last. 173 00:19:28,410 --> 00:19:34,920 And I agree with everything that's been said already. So I have a little bit of latitude and there's an organisation many of you will have 174 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:40,530 heard of to the Association of Intermediate Research and Technology Organisations. 175 00:19:40,530 --> 00:19:51,720 So in the UK, that covers 80 100 organisations, public sector research establishments, national labs to use some of them for profit, some not. 176 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:59,800 Some might look a bit more like a consultancy to me to get a bit fifty seven thousand employees altogether, a turnover of seven billion. 177 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:05,890 I mean, this is this is a major part of the of the UK, the complex UK innovation landscape. 178 00:20:05,890 --> 00:20:11,170 You've got things in there like the welding institute to do a lot more than welding the National Physical Jobs Building 179 00:20:11,170 --> 00:20:17,440 research establishment who came to the fore and Grenfell testing people who do industrial maths and nothing else, 180 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,880 people who have expertise in modelling what ships do in estuary flow. 181 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:27,830 So those things are all there very, very specifically for industry and industries organisations like myself that 182 00:20:27,830 --> 00:20:33,190 are that deep and enabling technologies to to help a wide range of sectors. 183 00:20:33,190 --> 00:20:38,680 So we should be proud of of two and the plethora of organisations we have. 184 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:47,410 One of the things that inspired the creation of the Catapult Centres is phone offer Gesellschaft in Germany and they and their model. 185 00:20:47,410 --> 00:20:53,390 So whilst we have a whole Scrabble board of initials describing around two users in the UK and Germany phone offer, 186 00:20:53,390 --> 00:21:03,940 Gesellschaft has twenty six and a half thousand employees spread across 72 institutes, which cover professional applied R&D services for industry. 187 00:21:03,940 --> 00:21:13,090 They cover all aspects of physics, chemistry, biology, various engineering disciplines, lots of production, engineering, materials, computer science, 188 00:21:13,090 --> 00:21:21,570 all the things you would imagine that have been in a university the industry wants to reach so that their vehicle is very, very targeted on that. 189 00:21:21,570 --> 00:21:28,420 And that's and that's what they deliver. It was interesting in the creation of Sloane Offer in the UK. 190 00:21:28,420 --> 00:21:34,300 Scottish Enterprise asked for an offering exemption for the for the evidence that there were really worth of salt. 191 00:21:34,300 --> 00:21:41,680 And why did the government put so much money into this and they didn't know how to answer because over in Germany, it's been going for 70 years. 192 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:46,690 It's not a party political issue. There's an ongoing model. There's a real tension there. 193 00:21:46,690 --> 00:21:53,170 If they don't deliver for industry, they will get less money in the following year and they will cease to exist. 194 00:21:53,170 --> 00:21:57,100 The phone Hartford Institute for Shoe Manufacture no longer exists. 195 00:21:57,100 --> 00:22:02,350 I think the Germans learnt everything they needed to know about making shoes, so they closed that one, and that's great. 196 00:22:02,350 --> 00:22:10,090 Whereas the microelectronics one that we started in the nineteen fifties is not pushing forward the same technology it, then it has to. 197 00:22:10,090 --> 00:22:14,290 It has to learn from the university research base, be ahead of where industry is. 198 00:22:14,290 --> 00:22:20,200 So the industry wants to go there for the expertise as well as the equipment as well as the training. 199 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:26,950 Very important for us to be training for Ph.D. and engineering doctoral students for the for the next generation working in industry. 200 00:22:26,950 --> 00:22:33,100 So we kicked off in 2009 with a very positive letter from a UK government bank. 201 00:22:33,100 --> 00:22:39,820 Then being friendly towards Europe is very refreshing. Seeing how can how can the UK and phone offer work better together? 202 00:22:39,820 --> 00:22:46,810 That led to the creation in 2012 of a first centre up in Glasgow, the Final Four Centre for Applied Photonics, 203 00:22:46,810 --> 00:22:51,790 which is deep, deep expertise in a whole range of lasers and optical systems. 204 00:22:51,790 --> 00:22:55,660 And we do work for industry to help them with their problems, 205 00:22:55,660 --> 00:23:00,160 whether it's the next generation cutting edge laser or whether it's an oil and gas company, 206 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:07,900 a renewable energy company needs a complete system that just so happens to have a laser to enable what they do. 207 00:23:07,900 --> 00:23:12,550 So that's not what we're all about, and I'm guessing as well that this audience is a special audience. 208 00:23:12,550 --> 00:23:18,100 We've got experts here from the university side in the industrial sector who knew how to collaborate together. 209 00:23:18,100 --> 00:23:23,590 You're probably the ones who are doing it well, and you're probably the ones that didn't feature in the Dowling review, 210 00:23:23,590 --> 00:23:30,340 which adds to the incredible complexity of the UK landscape. We didn't even get a mention, and that was terrible. 211 00:23:30,340 --> 00:23:39,580 But there's so many things in there that our barriers, our gaps that we can help with, we can help get things between universities and industry. 212 00:23:39,580 --> 00:23:42,520 University of Strathclyde, I hope you might agree, 213 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:50,260 has a reputation of being more applied and more focussed on industry than than some other universities aim to be. 214 00:23:50,260 --> 00:23:56,230 That's right up there in the mission. I had a I had a role within the Institute of Photonics within Strathclyde University. 215 00:23:56,230 --> 00:23:59,240 It was a research institute. It didn't teach undergrads. 216 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:05,020 It was very much focussed, never to do blue sky, but always to do things that were going to be useful. 217 00:24:05,020 --> 00:24:10,240 That was the origins of the phone hoeffel centre. We have, so we could say, Well, we aren't you doing it already? 218 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:14,410 Why don't you doing it well enough? Well, there's only so much you can do in a day. 219 00:24:14,410 --> 00:24:18,760 Some of us, when we left there were concerned that the new phone Hoffer Centre would soak up all the 220 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:24,790 industry activity and perhaps the Institute of Photonics within the university might decline. 221 00:24:24,790 --> 00:24:25,660 Seven years later, 222 00:24:25,660 --> 00:24:33,340 I'm delighted to tell you the institute is bigger and better and stronger than it ever was by bolting on the phone off of centre to the site of that, 223 00:24:33,340 --> 00:24:39,760 they have more time, more energy, more latitude to investigate things that they knew will be important to industry. 224 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:44,660 They apply for episode grants. We don't. We do a lot of work with Innovate UK. 225 00:24:44,660 --> 00:24:52,930 We do a lot of work directly with industry. I think what intermediaries are for have that real clarity and of the of the mission. 226 00:24:52,930 --> 00:24:57,640 We don't take part in the rest of the team for the cash or anything like that. We talk about repeat customers. 227 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:02,240 If we never published, it wouldn't matter. If we didn't patent, it wouldn't matter. 228 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:07,310 But if industry wanted us to, we would patent and then make sure they had the access they needed to the IP. 229 00:25:07,310 --> 00:25:17,960 So I think intermediaries of the sort that I work for, I was asked to provide professional applied R&D services for industry. 230 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:18,920 Thank you very much, Simon. 231 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:26,240 So I guess there's some different perspectives and obviously some quite different institutions that we've that we've talked about, 232 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:39,020 but I'm quite interested to get some views and some questions from from you guys as to whether you agree, whether you want to challenge any of that. 233 00:25:39,020 --> 00:25:47,460 Malcolm. How is the national standards drive your activities in your respective fields? 234 00:25:47,460 --> 00:25:55,420 How much competition is there across countries to make sure that their standard is the one that sticks? 235 00:25:55,420 --> 00:26:04,600 Well, I can. I can give an answer. I mean, across the catapult network, and it varies a lot depending on which industry you're in. 236 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:11,140 So obviously the in the health tech catapults standards are absolutely vital, 237 00:26:11,140 --> 00:26:18,730 and they're all working to the and they're all developing new standards and particularly for standards for the new generation of cell therapies, 238 00:26:18,730 --> 00:26:23,080 which aren't going to be delivered in blister packs. But you know, a new industry needs to be created. 239 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:29,440 That's actually going to figure out how to deliver those therapies and new standards need to be developed for that. 240 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:34,440 We're working quite closely on the 5G standards, and that's that's a big international effort. 241 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,930 There's a there's a well-established community that's working on those, 242 00:26:37,930 --> 00:26:42,610 and obviously our interest is to make sure that the satellite element to that is well represented. 243 00:26:42,610 --> 00:26:53,430 And we we want to make sure that satellites can provide that ubiquitous communication element in 5G that's been missing from the previous generations. 244 00:26:53,430 --> 00:27:03,340 But but it does vary, but I think clearly standards are an important element of many highly regulated industries. 245 00:27:03,340 --> 00:27:11,920 A tip typically the companies we work with say that the focus on the standards is something that they're already absolutely expert in. 246 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:19,370 So we have an awareness of. We're working in defence, but no specs. This thing has to survive minus 40 plus 80 degrees Celsius, that sort of thing. 247 00:27:19,370 --> 00:27:25,180 And medical devices as well. We do design with those standards in mind, but truth be told, 248 00:27:25,180 --> 00:27:30,490 we are taking that material view and the companies will then be the experts to get things through the regulations. 249 00:27:30,490 --> 00:27:35,890 So it's important we're aware of them, but we are not involved in driving them. 250 00:27:35,890 --> 00:27:41,530 The only thing I would, I would agree, and the only thing I would add is the major companies that are driving throughout, 251 00:27:41,530 --> 00:27:46,600 you know, the the Manufacturing USA institutes, their global companies. 252 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:59,540 So the standards are that that we talk about are global standards. 253 00:27:59,540 --> 00:28:13,850 So I'm going to East Terrace. I'm sorry, Mr. Kim is going to be next. 254 00:28:13,850 --> 00:28:21,230 So I mean, it's interesting you made the point that you don't apply for kind of research council grants and the university does, 255 00:28:21,230 --> 00:28:26,000 you know, I think one of the, you know, if you were to have a more combative session, 256 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,740 one of the questions that was asked when the catapults arrived is these smaller organisations that 257 00:28:30,740 --> 00:28:36,760 are ultimately going to become competitors with universities and industry for research grants. 258 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,170 So do you feel that that tension should, 259 00:28:39,170 --> 00:28:44,540 should was a mistake or was it something that has been fixed or is it something that needs to be an ongoing concern? 260 00:28:44,540 --> 00:28:48,620 Was what he views on that kind of particular worry? 261 00:28:48,620 --> 00:28:55,190 I mean, I think there are, you know, there were there are different types of funding, some of which are aimed at the research institution, 262 00:28:55,190 --> 00:28:59,750 some rhythms around the industry and some of them are sort of aimed at the sort the, 263 00:28:59,750 --> 00:29:04,940 you know, the crossover points, the distance or the commercialisation elements. 264 00:29:04,940 --> 00:29:11,180 And I don't think we've quite got that landscape well-organised yet is would be my view. 265 00:29:11,180 --> 00:29:17,300 And I think the diagram on the Down from the Dowling review would probably support that assertion. 266 00:29:17,300 --> 00:29:21,020 I mean, I don't mind a bit of tension. I think a bit of tension is a good thing. 267 00:29:21,020 --> 00:29:24,860 I mean, it's not like there's no tension in the university network, I think. 268 00:29:24,860 --> 00:29:31,640 And, you know, healthy competition between universities, I think is part of what makes the university so strong. 269 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:35,480 And, you know, back in the day when so you know, 270 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:42,590 in the early days when Google were being asked how and why they been so successful as well, because we up Yahoo just down the road. 271 00:29:42,590 --> 00:29:45,860 And you know, and that's that's that's sort of Spurs industry on. 272 00:29:45,860 --> 00:29:46,510 And, you know, 273 00:29:46,510 --> 00:29:53,060 part of the reason for creating a cluster of well of space industry to go to 100 companies there now is that they're all spurring each other on. 274 00:29:53,060 --> 00:29:58,910 They're all driving each other forward. So a bit of bit of healthy tension in this is not not a bad thing. 275 00:29:58,910 --> 00:30:04,550 So in the US, is the funding landscape much clearer and it's obvious? 276 00:30:04,550 --> 00:30:13,250 Well, I would say the answer to the question is, you know, I think academics write proposals to funding agencies as a business. 277 00:30:13,250 --> 00:30:21,740 This is what we do. And you know that that leads to the product, which is graduates and new knowledge. 278 00:30:21,740 --> 00:30:26,750 So it's very natural for the academics to write these proposals, 279 00:30:26,750 --> 00:30:38,540 which is why the whole manufacturing USA network of institutes really got driven not just ours, but most of them by by academics. 280 00:30:38,540 --> 00:30:43,340 So, you know, and yes, there's a lot of tension between them. 281 00:30:43,340 --> 00:30:54,830 You know, I I hear from a number of faculty about their internal competitions as they move between the institutes. 282 00:30:54,830 --> 00:31:00,020 So, you know, I think that and I agree with you totally that is absolutely healthy. 283 00:31:00,020 --> 00:31:05,420 You know, those of us who try to run universities, it drives you nuts a little bit, 284 00:31:05,420 --> 00:31:12,380 especially when they want some of my resources to help them with each of those institutes. 285 00:31:12,380 --> 00:31:18,020 But you know, that's I think that's a really good way, especially if you're pulling industry in, 286 00:31:18,020 --> 00:31:24,120 which is certainly what has happened here in industry is is driving a lot of this. 287 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,780 So it's my thoughts on that. It does. 288 00:31:27,780 --> 00:31:31,700 Does everyone use the word collaboration? I mean, that's nice. 289 00:31:31,700 --> 00:31:37,240 Last quarter, as the university said, very, very close beside each other. You could, you could argue and you could think of it. 290 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,390 The funding is finite. So maybe we are all competing to some extent, 291 00:31:41,390 --> 00:31:48,470 but there's there's much more to be won by those that collaborate together and are focussed on the endpoint of what we're all trying to deliver. 292 00:31:48,470 --> 00:31:56,960 You won't find me arguing for any reduction in the research budget. I'll certainly argue enormously for an increase in the budget. 293 00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:58,400 There's so much more to be exploited. 294 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:04,850 We have such a fantastic research base in the U.K. we don't we don't have anything like the vehicles to exploit it properly. 295 00:32:04,850 --> 00:32:10,040 We're not even close. Innovate UK is no part of UK array, 296 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:15,500 having invented the catapult doesn't even understand in its own competitions 297 00:32:15,500 --> 00:32:19,730 how best to fund those competitions that involve universities and how to use. 298 00:32:19,730 --> 00:32:26,480 If I can say to you instead of intermediary because they're limited to typically limited to 30 percent of a project, 299 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:32,810 and that's for all the art teachers and universities that are involved. So if you get near, say me and we do an awful lot to help SMEs, 300 00:32:32,810 --> 00:32:37,160 they don't want to take on 70 percent of the road and the project on their own shoulders. 301 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,070 They come to us and they say, Well, we'd really like, you know, 302 00:32:40,070 --> 00:32:46,730 this guy in South London to draw some fibres and the NPLW to take this measurements and you guys to make a system in a box, 303 00:32:46,730 --> 00:32:53,000 and that's about 80 percent of the project. So I might argue that the universities have a very healthy our budget. 304 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:58,190 But in terms of Innovate UK, if Stewart and I want to collaborate, we almost impossible. 305 00:32:58,190 --> 00:32:58,850 We're looking at. 306 00:32:58,850 --> 00:33:06,260 Very small part of if it's going to deliver, especially for the small market, especially for the smaller companies, so we're not there yet. 307 00:33:06,260 --> 00:33:12,910 If we find the small companies actually are not putting a whole lot of money into it, they put other resources in, but they don't have money. 308 00:33:12,910 --> 00:33:20,650 It's the biggies that are putting the money and they, you know, they share the supply chain, so they share the same ease. 309 00:33:20,650 --> 00:33:26,450 But those are the folks who are putting the funds into, you know, into the collaborative projects. 310 00:33:26,450 --> 00:33:35,590 Yeah. And you know, if you had told me five years ago that we would have major companies collaborating and you know, 311 00:33:35,590 --> 00:33:41,050 they're there across a number of different sectors of our economy. 312 00:33:41,050 --> 00:33:44,960 But if you had told me that all those major companies would be collaborating, 313 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:55,450 I would not necessarily agree that you were saying it's so effective in the space of its manufacturing and its processes they have in common. 314 00:33:55,450 --> 00:34:02,350 They get so much value for their money. We like it as well the launch of the companies that come through and the end users, 315 00:34:02,350 --> 00:34:05,980 because that really builds through the supply chain that pulls the same ease. 316 00:34:05,980 --> 00:34:10,420 I do hope we can continue in Horizon Europe projects because for me, 317 00:34:10,420 --> 00:34:18,520 that's a fabulous opportunity for the smaller companies to be involved in a big project that's got a BMW to Bosch or someone at the end of the chain 318 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:26,090 that's through that project that they're designing and developing their next generation projects into that supply chain and getting great value. 319 00:34:26,090 --> 00:34:31,660 Yeah, exactly. And you you were desperate to ask something before. 320 00:34:31,660 --> 00:34:37,360 Yes. What's again? I always defer to my friend Phil. So two questions. 321 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,990 Simon for you. First, about Fraunhofer as in general. 322 00:34:40,990 --> 00:34:48,760 Um, you know, I think the front after modelling Germany's incredible success, I think people look at it with envy. 323 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:54,700 You know, in talking to my friends from the UK, the catapults were, you know, Fraunhofer is a great model in the U.S. 324 00:34:54,700 --> 00:34:58,090 People say the national labs are the closest thing we have to front office. 325 00:34:58,090 --> 00:35:05,830 We really could use Fraunhofer. There are Fraunhofer in the U.S., but they're they're under the radar unless they're in your your area. 326 00:35:05,830 --> 00:35:10,960 I think if you ask most academic researchers in the U.S. are small and mid-sized companies. 327 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:16,930 They don't know about it. The MEP programme that you weren't here yesterday, but both Copan talked about the MEP programme, 328 00:35:16,930 --> 00:35:25,450 which is really set up to help small and mid-size manufacturers with technical issues that they have. 329 00:35:25,450 --> 00:35:34,270 And so, you know, and I hear a lot of other places talk about the need for a Fraunhofer like organisation, so I guess. 330 00:35:34,270 --> 00:35:39,070 And of course, I know you represent all of Fraunhofer throughout the whole world, of course. 331 00:35:39,070 --> 00:35:46,270 Why do you think it's it's worked in Germany? There are ones in the U.S., but they haven't. 332 00:35:46,270 --> 00:35:52,510 I would say it's matured or evolved to a level of robustness that they're clearly, I think. 333 00:35:52,510 --> 00:35:55,720 And you know, GE may want to weigh in or may not. 334 00:35:55,720 --> 00:36:02,360 But I mean, I hear people all the time say it would be great if we had Fraunhofer in the U.S. or, you know, the national labs, our Fraunhofer like. 335 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,970 And so what do you think that is? And so that's my question for you. 336 00:36:06,970 --> 00:36:11,800 And then and then I have a question for Jay, so I'll hold the mic if you want to answer that. 337 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:17,500 OK? I couldn't tell you exactly why it doesn't work in the US. 338 00:36:17,500 --> 00:36:21,970 I do know that they have a number of different states, and every time there's an election, 339 00:36:21,970 --> 00:36:25,270 they're trying to renegotiate funding with a new senator and it's blue and it's red. 340 00:36:25,270 --> 00:36:33,400 That's blue and it's red, and that's a big problem for them. I know that they're funding structures are very different from Michigan to California. 341 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:38,140 There's about seven or eight. So. So I think they don't have that. 342 00:36:38,140 --> 00:36:44,110 The ongoing basis core funding signed and sealed, not politically contentious. 343 00:36:44,110 --> 00:36:48,010 Every few years, they have to go and introduce themselves again to the local local senator. 344 00:36:48,010 --> 00:36:55,380 So I think that that might be a fundamental sticking point. The success in Germany is very, very easy to look back on. 345 00:36:55,380 --> 00:37:01,030 I will never, ever share a platform with my lovely Counterplay colleagues without doing them one favour and saying, 346 00:37:01,030 --> 00:37:07,750 Can we please stop producing the catapults every year? Right? The Germans took about 30 years to work out how to do it. 347 00:37:07,750 --> 00:37:12,910 I really took it, started in late 1940s. It really took off in the 70s. 348 00:37:12,910 --> 00:37:15,310 They get into that mode of doing it and doing it properly, 349 00:37:15,310 --> 00:37:19,930 and they have thorough reviews about every three years of themselves, of different institutes. 350 00:37:19,930 --> 00:37:24,970 There's a tension in the financial model that incentivise them to do the right sort of work. 351 00:37:24,970 --> 00:37:30,400 About half of the workers earlier stage and collaborative. Half of the work is industrial. 352 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,350 That financial tension? 353 00:37:32,350 --> 00:37:38,920 The third is not some magical thing in itself that the magic thing is the tension that they don't become a blue sky research institute 354 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:46,000 by doing too much early collaborative and they don't become an industrial job shop or consultancy by only doing pure industrial. 355 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:53,800 So if they got a pound of fruit from government for every pound industry gave them, they would rush off and become a consultancy at a job shop. 356 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:58,890 But there's a complex algorithm in the funding that keeps that attention and the success. 357 00:37:58,890 --> 00:38:05,250 Looking back now is because they have unlike Air two in the UK with all these acronyms and different organisations, 358 00:38:05,250 --> 00:38:09,360 there's a consistency there of the branding, something Carter felt were very wise to adopt. 359 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:14,760 There's one name. So if you're an industry in Germany and you have a problem and you don't know if it's the 360 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:19,650 manufacturing of the plastic or the injection moulding or the the laser ranging of the ink, 361 00:38:19,650 --> 00:38:23,160 you know who to call. I have this problem. Who's going to solve it? 362 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:30,720 So they've now got that the other guys to go to brand and reputation has taken a long time to build up. 363 00:38:30,720 --> 00:38:35,130 And I couldn't tell you exactly why they've not cracked it in the US. 364 00:38:35,130 --> 00:38:43,290 OK. Thanks, Jay. We talked yesterday about sustaining consortia and models. 365 00:38:43,290 --> 00:38:48,420 The Manufacturing USA had a tremendously large cost shares. 366 00:38:48,420 --> 00:38:53,940 I remember it was three to one or something like that based on the cash that the government gave. 367 00:38:53,940 --> 00:39:00,180 And I think it's a 10 year cap right on the on the programmes from the feds in theory, right? 368 00:39:00,180 --> 00:39:10,050 Yes. So and the one that your involvement in Chicago has been around now, it's in its second five year, second five year. 369 00:39:10,050 --> 00:39:18,210 So how often are you all talking about the need to think about sustainability beyond the federal funding period? 370 00:39:18,210 --> 00:39:26,160 Is that is that business model being discussed in terms of how you're going to evolve to get to that? 371 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:30,000 And and is that something that was thought about early in the process, like in year two? 372 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,780 Or is it just now getting on the radar? It seems to me like a lot of time. 373 00:39:33,780 --> 00:39:37,890 It's like you're seven when people have a spiffy like, Oh, we have three years of funding, 374 00:39:37,890 --> 00:39:45,360 like we need to do something, we started talking about it year one sustainability we recognised. 375 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:51,450 We weren't sure we were going to get the second round, you know, the second five year round. 376 00:39:51,450 --> 00:39:55,950 Let's just say there are times in the United States when there's a change in the 377 00:39:55,950 --> 00:40:03,180 administration and sometimes things don't move from one administration to the next. 378 00:40:03,180 --> 00:40:11,820 So this was started under the Obama administration and has continued with significant funding and then into the Trump administration. 379 00:40:11,820 --> 00:40:21,900 So to answer your question, we started at the very beginning looking at sustainability because we were concerned that this would be an issue. 380 00:40:21,900 --> 00:40:28,860 You know, I just want to riff a little bit on your comment about the geopolitical issue here. 381 00:40:28,860 --> 00:40:35,910 The geo being our states and not the world, but in the politics being, you know, whatever it is, 382 00:40:35,910 --> 00:40:46,180 if you look at the funding for the manufacturing institutes, aid from the Department of Defence and then the rest of them except one of the 14. 383 00:40:46,180 --> 00:40:51,930 So you know what's at six five, our Department of Energy, most people in this room, 384 00:40:51,930 --> 00:40:59,730 if you're not from the United States, think of the Department of Energy as dealing with energy. 385 00:40:59,730 --> 00:41:04,620 Half of those labs run our nuclear weapons programme, 386 00:41:04,620 --> 00:41:12,630 and that's how the Department of Energy started with Fermi saying, Geez, you know, doing a critical mass critical, 387 00:41:12,630 --> 00:41:12,900 you know, 388 00:41:12,900 --> 00:41:23,040 the critical pile in and underneath the stadium at the University of Chicago is probably not the right place to be developing nuclear materials. 389 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:31,950 So they moved it 15 miles outside of Chicago and then quickly realised they needed to go to Los Alamos because they needed to be really secret. 390 00:41:31,950 --> 00:41:37,800 So the Department of Energy is very closely linked to the military in many ways. 391 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:44,340 And if you look at the United States and you look at the funding of these major and the major labs, 392 00:41:44,340 --> 00:41:51,540 there are either defence labs directly through the Department of Defence or indirectly through the Department of Energy. 393 00:41:51,540 --> 00:42:03,000 There is a reasonable fraction of what the Department of Energy work now that is related to basic research that has a commercial impact. 394 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:15,030 So a dual use component, but we have had great success in the development side of R&D when it's linked to national security and defence. 395 00:42:15,030 --> 00:42:24,780 There hasn't. And then we have had great success in finding funding for, you know, what I would call tier one really fundamental research. 396 00:42:24,780 --> 00:42:30,780 So the National Institutes of Health, the National Science Foundation, that's where funding goes. 397 00:42:30,780 --> 00:42:35,850 But once you start moving up to your own levels, there is a sense within the country. 398 00:42:35,850 --> 00:42:38,490 And certainly when I go out and talk to alumni, 399 00:42:38,490 --> 00:42:43,650 they're wondering why we're getting money from the federal government, why we don't get money from companies. 400 00:42:43,650 --> 00:42:53,010 So if you've got, you know, reasonably well, at least educated folks coming out of major universities who are asking me this, 401 00:42:53,010 --> 00:43:00,630 the populous very much feels that development belongs to industry, and that's how it ought to be driven. 402 00:43:00,630 --> 00:43:05,580 So, you know, you ask Tony and you know, there's sort of this conversation, 403 00:43:05,580 --> 00:43:12,060 you know, what's the difference between the United States relative to Fraunhofer? 404 00:43:12,060 --> 00:43:19,170 My sense is that it's that the US public very strongly feels the development is 405 00:43:19,170 --> 00:43:26,970 within the domain of industry and research is they're very willing to fund research, 406 00:43:26,970 --> 00:43:36,630 fundamental research through the federal government and into the universities, which is where we get the vast majority of our funding for research. 407 00:43:36,630 --> 00:43:42,090 I think that's that I would love to hear if somebody disagrees with that. 408 00:43:42,090 --> 00:43:44,280 Can I just make another point on that? 409 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:50,220 When when the catapults were set up, they were set up in response to a study done by a guy called Hermann Hauser. 410 00:43:50,220 --> 00:43:53,640 If anybody's familiar with Hermann is sort of the closest we've got to Steve Jobs, 411 00:43:53,640 --> 00:44:00,420 I think he's sort of one of the founders of AAM and and he was looking at the what is the 412 00:44:00,420 --> 00:44:06,360 challenge of the of the U.K. was that we have some of the world's great research institutions, 413 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:16,120 but we don't have the same record of translating research into economic output as other countries do, including the US in Germany. 414 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:22,680 So he did a quite a detailed review of all the different, you know, our major competitor nations, if you want to put it that way, 415 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:31,800 who were doing this better than we are and what they had that we didn't and they obviously picked out the Frauen office in Germany. 416 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:38,500 But he was, you know, and he was pointing out things that you talked about important in the role, the daughter plays things like the Draper Labs, 417 00:44:38,500 --> 00:44:42,340 a number of the universities who have privately funded institutions who act in this place, 418 00:44:42,340 --> 00:44:47,460 like the Dutch Fondé Institute, the Media Lab at MIT, and developed them this time. 419 00:44:47,460 --> 00:44:51,300 And these kind of places that provide this intermediary function, 420 00:44:51,300 --> 00:44:56,970 though perhaps we don't really think of them as intermediaries, necessarily within the university system. 421 00:44:56,970 --> 00:45:03,030 And so, you know, clearly that was something that the US had that we didn't have, and it was the cannibals that came out of that. 422 00:45:03,030 --> 00:45:09,510 And it was what he described it as translational infrastructure that that that area that 423 00:45:09,510 --> 00:45:16,510 focuses on that sort of the commercialisation of research to as their primary function. 424 00:45:16,510 --> 00:45:22,620 And and that so I think if if to answer the question that was raised, 425 00:45:22,620 --> 00:45:27,390 I think looking at that Hauser report would be a good place to start because it looks at the 426 00:45:27,390 --> 00:45:32,670 landscape right across the world and compare and contrast what's going on in this space. 427 00:45:32,670 --> 00:45:37,800 The only thing I would add to that is, you know, Draper was a Department of Defence. 428 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:42,990 It was defence related activities wasn't nearly as DARPA's clearly, you know, 429 00:45:42,990 --> 00:45:48,630 Defence Advanced Research Projects Administration is clearly that as well. 430 00:45:48,630 --> 00:45:56,770 What hasn't come up in this conversation that you sort of leaned right against the edge of it is VC funding and angel funding, which. 431 00:45:56,770 --> 00:46:00,900 In the United States is certainly driving an incredible amount of activity. 432 00:46:00,900 --> 00:46:10,240 And so you mentioned this Monday, and that's private money that went into building that, that part of of it. 433 00:46:10,240 --> 00:46:18,910 You know, the labs also had private money donors, and we have the same sort of thing within our institution, not on that scale. 434 00:46:18,910 --> 00:46:26,390 We're getting there. But you know, you grow and it takes decades. But you know, that's a component here. 435 00:46:26,390 --> 00:46:31,780 That's interesting. Do you have that sort of knowledge of that scale? 436 00:46:31,780 --> 00:46:37,960 We've got one or two individuals who are starting to fund more of that, that sort of thing. 437 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:43,390 You know, people like Dyson and people on that sector know nothing about the scale that you have. 438 00:46:43,390 --> 00:46:49,930 In case we get into envying the US and the funding landscape too much, I'm going to go for another question. 439 00:46:49,930 --> 00:46:54,850 Yeah. A couple of other thoughts. They always say what you've never thought of. 440 00:46:54,850 --> 00:47:00,400 You can hardly mix, but all their intermediaries you think that I'm on. 441 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:07,780 I'm probably more talking in the UK context, but other intermediaries that we actually think we still lack in the UK, 442 00:47:07,780 --> 00:47:13,510 that would make a difference to ultimately our economic prosperity here. 443 00:47:13,510 --> 00:47:23,890 That would be one question. And I guess another one would be having talked quite a lot about place. 444 00:47:23,890 --> 00:47:30,490 How would you kind of continue to argue for the balance between Sector Place? 445 00:47:30,490 --> 00:47:39,340 One stop makes an awful lot of sense. One stop shop makes an awful lot of sense in one context, in an intermediary context. 446 00:47:39,340 --> 00:47:44,260 We're looking at a one stop shop, a sector, specialism, an institution. 447 00:47:44,260 --> 00:47:49,300 How would you argue for the merits and demerits of intermediaries in terms of their structure, 448 00:47:49,300 --> 00:47:57,880 their specialism, their geography, their ability to attract from either end of what they're trying to achieve? 449 00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:03,610 I'm just going to comment very briefly on the very first point you raised about creating new institutions, 450 00:48:03,610 --> 00:48:08,770 and this is probably something that coming from you care, I shouldn't say, 451 00:48:08,770 --> 00:48:15,790 but I think at the moment there's a real fashion for creating new institutions, be they research institutions, 452 00:48:15,790 --> 00:48:22,750 be they intermediaries and and looking at how complex the current landscape is. 453 00:48:22,750 --> 00:48:30,400 I'm not sure that the the answer to everything is let's create a new thing that's a bit different to what's gone before. 454 00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:33,310 So I think that there may well be gaps, 455 00:48:33,310 --> 00:48:43,180 but I'm not sure the answer is new institutions of whatever flavour I'm going to have to open that up to others for their thoughts. 456 00:48:43,180 --> 00:48:48,460 Yeah, I mean, I would probably agree, although there was always political pressure. 457 00:48:48,460 --> 00:48:55,480 If you're going to be spending more money, then it's much more politically comfortable to have something new to announce rather than say you're 458 00:48:55,480 --> 00:49:01,870 going to give more money to some existing players so that there's always a tension in the system. 459 00:49:01,870 --> 00:49:08,530 Again, that I mean, I think when you look at the talking about the the Fraunhofer Institutes and the 460 00:49:08,530 --> 00:49:13,990 scale that they that they operate in Germany and compared them to what's happening, 461 00:49:13,990 --> 00:49:18,820 what's here in the UK, I think there's clearly a big difference there. 462 00:49:18,820 --> 00:49:24,190 And I think the other big difference is we've just been talking about the amount of investment that the Department of Energy, 463 00:49:24,190 --> 00:49:27,220 Department of Defence and does in the US. 464 00:49:27,220 --> 00:49:36,070 If you look at any other of the major developed nations around the world and look at how much our government spends on research, it is almost zero. 465 00:49:36,070 --> 00:49:45,670 It's negligible. There's no major government R&D programme in the UK compared to what goes on in other countries, and I think that is a real problem. 466 00:49:45,670 --> 00:49:47,500 We will when we're trying to, 467 00:49:47,500 --> 00:49:55,180 we're working with government departments and trying to help them understand how they can use space technology in Brexit. 468 00:49:55,180 --> 00:50:01,660 Looking at how we're going to do the replacement for Common Agricultural Policy, how we're going to do the new fisheries policy. 469 00:50:01,660 --> 00:50:09,880 There's no competence around in government to look at new technological solutions for any of that, and that's a real problem. 470 00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:15,850 And so I think that if there is a gap at the moment, that's probably it. 471 00:50:15,850 --> 00:50:22,300 I mean, did you want it coming from Glasgow come at some place and all of this and how that fits? 472 00:50:22,300 --> 00:50:25,600 Yeah, sure. I think there's a wide range of things to pick up on. 473 00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:26,800 One of them is place. 474 00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:36,940 So the typical phone Hoffman Institute in Germany will do 80 percent of its business in a circle of, I forget it, 50 kilometres or 80 kilometres. 475 00:50:36,940 --> 00:50:43,430 Yeah, the cluster the cluster effect is is a bit old fashioned in time, but it really, really works like what's happening and how. 476 00:50:43,430 --> 00:50:44,650 Well, 477 00:50:44,650 --> 00:50:50,860 one of the reasons we are setting in the central belt of Scotland is because there are several universities very good at different types of lasers, 478 00:50:50,860 --> 00:50:54,280 and there's a whole cluster of laser and optical companies up there. 479 00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:58,450 We weren't starting with a blank sheet of page. We're trying to make things better. 480 00:50:58,450 --> 00:51:03,670 Part of that as well is that there's the rise of the SMEs and who can't afford the corporate lab. 481 00:51:03,670 --> 00:51:05,950 They can dip in and out of an intermediary when they want. 482 00:51:05,950 --> 00:51:13,350 They can occasionally sponsor a Ph.D. student to come through who's familiar with deadlines and deliverables working with us. 483 00:51:13,350 --> 00:51:18,850 So, so there's a wide range of things there. More and more gaps in the market. 484 00:51:18,850 --> 00:51:25,030 Yeah, they certainly are with it with the demise of corporate labs. And I see the gaps in enabling technologies. 485 00:51:25,030 --> 00:51:33,490 Speaking to lots of universities around the UK where they have got a deep enabling technology that they can apply to different, different sectors. 486 00:51:33,490 --> 00:51:43,280 So whether that's a major electronic synthetic biology, biomass catalysts, various chemical aspects that are beyond me and there's a stack of things, 487 00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:49,420 a stack of things that a cybersecurity one, again, there'll be universities who do this well and do it directly. 488 00:51:49,420 --> 00:51:53,840 There's only so many hours in the day to day teaching and knowledge and understanding. 489 00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:57,700 So, yeah, I think I think that I think there are gaps there. So police can be really important. 490 00:51:57,700 --> 00:52:05,650 You're, you know, you will eventually have an incredible cluster of satellite applications, companies surrounding Stewart. 491 00:52:05,650 --> 00:52:07,780 And I think there's there are different ways of doing this. 492 00:52:07,780 --> 00:52:13,330 So some of the catapults of a very sectoral approach, transport systems is very much a sector, 493 00:52:13,330 --> 00:52:17,500 is that do they do they employ a gear train or chassis designers? 494 00:52:17,500 --> 00:52:23,590 Or is it all about the materials or is it all about the electronics? So it's very central, whereas very often issues tend to be deep, 495 00:52:23,590 --> 00:52:28,300 enabling technologies that the car crosses all sorts of ways of looking at it, trying to judge Schwartz. 496 00:52:28,300 --> 00:52:33,220 The the perfect missing piece of the jigsaw puzzle was not not easy. 497 00:52:33,220 --> 00:52:36,850 There's a question at the back and then one at the front. Sure. 498 00:52:36,850 --> 00:52:41,530 One of the roles that is going to be intermediate and very effective at all that over the last decades is helping 499 00:52:41,530 --> 00:52:46,060 industry figure out how to engage with Europe and the complexities of Europe and how to really get the best of it. 500 00:52:46,060 --> 00:52:51,220 So facing into Brexit now, which looks like the UK will probably come into our country. 501 00:52:51,220 --> 00:52:56,510 Is there all you think there's a new role for the intermediaries to figure that out and help people to to navigate? 502 00:52:56,510 --> 00:53:04,040 True. What's going to be pretty challenging times? Sure. 503 00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:08,270 But for those of us that don't apply to the UK for funding, 504 00:53:08,270 --> 00:53:14,720 then Horizon Europe is really fantastic and has always been much more focussed on getting things through to the end user. 505 00:53:14,720 --> 00:53:21,440 So yeah, we can help against small companies don't don't always have a very, very active portfolio in the. 506 00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:26,250 So we have big people knocking on door and say, should we apply to the Technology Strategy Board? 507 00:53:26,250 --> 00:53:30,050 And we said, Well, when was the last time you left the factory? It's innovate UK now. 508 00:53:30,050 --> 00:53:34,340 Here's here's what it looks like, and here's a list, and we guide them through that and help them through that. 509 00:53:34,340 --> 00:53:40,490 So there's there's a convening and an explaining role for the complexity of the landscape for organisations like ours to do. 510 00:53:40,490 --> 00:53:47,810 For sure. I mean, we've always had as part of our role helping organisations export and, you know, 511 00:53:47,810 --> 00:53:53,300 as an example of how innovation is not just all about technology in the space sector. 512 00:53:53,300 --> 00:54:02,270 Satellites are obviously global and you know, companies who are delivering services using space technology, their primary market might be, 513 00:54:02,270 --> 00:54:07,220 you know, in the Middle East, it might be in the Far East, it might be in South America for whatever services they're delivering. 514 00:54:07,220 --> 00:54:13,120 And so they're not the traditional savvy local market market first and then export type of businesses, 515 00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:15,210 they go to work out how to export what they want. So. 516 00:54:15,210 --> 00:54:34,660 And now with Brexit and the challenges and alleged opportunities that that creates, we've got to find find ways of taking advantage of those. 517 00:54:34,660 --> 00:54:39,250 Thanks. So you started out the session saying you wanted this to be combative, 518 00:54:39,250 --> 00:54:46,960 so at the risk of drawing ire of a lot of people in the audience, I'll phrase my question deliberately provocatively. 519 00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:54,460 So I think we've heard from the panel that intermediaries in general are built specifically to meet the needs of industry, 520 00:54:54,460 --> 00:55:00,190 while universities have a lot of other competing priorities and paymasters. 521 00:55:00,190 --> 00:55:05,350 So as as a business, why would I continue to go to a university? 522 00:55:05,350 --> 00:55:22,960 Why not just channel all industry activity through intermediaries? And I think Jay should go first on this because he's got a job. 523 00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:35,190 You know, look, that's a great question, of course. There are two things that you I'm going to I'll I'll I'll engage in directly in a role here. 524 00:55:35,190 --> 00:55:46,810 They have Phil move aside and we'll take it out back later. But there is a pub here in the there are two products that we have that you want. 525 00:55:46,810 --> 00:55:54,010 You want new knowledge so that you can expand your business and you want people who come out educated so that they can work in your industry. 526 00:55:54,010 --> 00:56:00,790 And if you work with us, then we can provide you a better product because we can understand your needs better and we can, 527 00:56:00,790 --> 00:56:07,390 you know, we can align much better if we work together on, you know, sort of one on one basis. 528 00:56:07,390 --> 00:56:19,720 The nice thing about intermediaries is that then there is a group of folks on both sides and there's and there's a conversation that occurs. 529 00:56:19,720 --> 00:56:26,710 Certainly, I know what happens at the Amex boards. And that is a bunch of us who are academics usually hang out for lunch together. 530 00:56:26,710 --> 00:56:29,830 I mean, you know, it's it's it's the usual human things. 531 00:56:29,830 --> 00:56:34,330 You know, we have something to talk about or complain about in the industry does the same thing. 532 00:56:34,330 --> 00:56:37,480 Now we do foresee, you know, we do there is a forced interaction, 533 00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:47,950 but there is also a consensus that builds within intermediaries and the consensus allows alignment overall over the two sectors. 534 00:56:47,950 --> 00:56:56,770 And certainly, I have seen that within the next board and within the technical side of that as well. 535 00:56:56,770 --> 00:57:03,370 So there are reasons to engage with both different with industry and academia, one on one. 536 00:57:03,370 --> 00:57:12,970 And there are reasons to do these consortia where the intermediaries get together, and I'm sure others will have other things to say about this. 537 00:57:12,970 --> 00:57:21,040 Yeah, I mean, I was this is the first time I've come across the use of the word intermediaries to describe this, this type of organisation. 538 00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:22,570 But actually, you know, to answer that question, 539 00:57:22,570 --> 00:57:30,760 I think it's it's a well-chosen description because part of part of what we do is facilitate introductions between industry 540 00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:36,820 and the university partners that have got the best expertise and knowledge that's going to help them solve their problems. 541 00:57:36,820 --> 00:57:45,760 We don't have the detailed, you know, real core scientific knowledge that the universities have, but we can facilitate those introductions. 542 00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:53,110 And if that means that, then there's no role for us afterwards, then that's fine to take credit for whatever happens from from that relationship. 543 00:57:53,110 --> 00:58:04,990 But, you know, we know that we can't do everything and we do that and we do try and facilitate those relationships. 544 00:58:04,990 --> 00:58:10,900 You're the customer. What do you want if you want a really, really specific piece of expertise? 545 00:58:10,900 --> 00:58:14,560 You don't necessarily go to the wonderful University of Oxford, the University of Cambridge. 546 00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:21,070 You go down to the individual person within whatever department it happens to be anywhere in the world to get the expertise you need. 547 00:58:21,070 --> 00:58:25,280 And if that's not an offer in Glasgow, then good luck. I have a great time. 548 00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:29,260 Find the right person to give you what you need so that a lot of the time, of course. 549 00:58:29,260 --> 00:58:31,570 Of course, there's so much knowledge in the universities. 550 00:58:31,570 --> 00:58:36,220 You won't go direct to universities for that knowledge that the number of professors who will then 551 00:58:36,220 --> 00:58:40,750 want to spend the next couple of years making you a pre-production prototype is pretty small, 552 00:58:40,750 --> 00:58:45,470 so you may want to get another organisation involved to work collaboratively. But in all, the universities are wonderful. 553 00:58:45,470 --> 00:58:49,360 If we're not setting you up to take all the business, yeah, that's all. 554 00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:52,510 It is all like that, but it's going to be about what you really need. 555 00:58:52,510 --> 00:58:59,080 Some of the best experiences I had and as a real job, an industry was collaborating with universities. 556 00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:03,340 And so some of the worst people that wanted to give you an enormous bill and they wouldn't 557 00:59:03,340 --> 00:59:06,460 break it down for you and they wouldn't tell you what they'd delivered in the winter, we went. 558 00:59:06,460 --> 00:59:12,850 So we didn't want to do is we want all the people in universities who fantastic. It gave us the benefit of the knowledge and it was so valuable. 559 00:59:12,850 --> 00:59:19,060 So as a team in a place for some things, we go shopping and Sainsbury's and some things we go shopping at Marks and Spencers. 560 00:59:19,060 --> 00:59:22,090 It depends what you want. 561 00:59:22,090 --> 00:59:31,080 So I think on the note that it's a highly collaborative endeavour and that there's complementary capabilities in both in actually working, engaging. 562 00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:34,990 If you're a university engaging with intermediaries and industry or indeed coming 563 00:59:34,990 --> 00:59:40,120 from the other side is is that is a valuable exercise that benefits everyone. 564 00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:47,605 I think it's probably time to hand back to Phil to thank you all very much.