It's a huge pleasure that I had to introduce Professor Stephen Gillett to, Stevens is visiting us within scope at the moment,
just the three days while he's doing some other projects in and around Europe, so we're lucky to have him here.
Stephen is professor of Adult Education in the School of Education and Professional Studies at Griffith University.
It's quite a mouthful. Stephen has worked as a vocational educator, a church administrator, teacher,
educator and professional development practitioner and policy development
within the Institute for Pigmentation and Training System for a long time now.
And Stephen is an honorary research fellow in this parliament quite recently, and we're very pleased to have him here.
Religion for the presentation, our students said. If you've got questions during, please ask, but we can also give it to the end.
Yep. Okay. Thanks, Susan. Nice to be here and thanks for coming along on a cold evening.
Of the various topics that perhaps I could have spoken about this evening, we've chosen this topic,
which is one very much about how we come to think about an act to integrate the experiences which tertiary education students have in the workplace,
but also in the education institution, and it builds upon a series of projects that I've undertaken in Australia.
The case sort of is that currently significant institutional and personal
resources are being expended to provide students with with workplace experiences,
certainly in Australia, and this is directed towards preparing them for readiness of the world of work upon graduation and trying
to also prepare them for lifelong learning to be able to learn and progress across their working lives.
And much of the emphasis. The rhetoric anyway, is about the integration of these experiences and how that might happen.
And within that, a consideration of what kind of goals should be achieved and how this is organised and enacted through work integrated education.
So what I want to discuss really is the kinds of educational goals that such activities are directed towards.
Firstly, and then a consideration of three things the curriculum and pedagogy,
practises and personal practises as well that might shape those outcomes and how these experiences,
students experiences and workplaces might be augmented and rich as it were.
And this draws upon three recent projects that have taken place across 20 Australian universities.
And the most current one, which I'm desperately trying to finish, is focussing on the post practicum experiences.
When students have had an experience with this grant, by the way, I thought had finished it, and it was worth about half million dollars.
And then the report was in, and then I got contacted by the federal government to say what happened to the the interest that was earned on the grant.
They've had that one before.
And sure enough, in the contract, they said that the money that was earned on the interest had to be expended on the grant.
And so the grant keeps on going and going as I have to find a way of extending the nine thousand six hundred dollars that was earned on interest.
So anyway, so here we go. And a key concern is how we align educational goals with curriculum practises and pedagogy practises.
But you'll also see within all of this a very strong emphasis on students, their interest, their goals and how that plays out in these arrangements.
So how lots of progress is talk initially about the educational purposes for tertiary and higher education,
and I'm using the word tertiary education because I do work across a number of
countries and what constitutes higher education in one country and another country.
It's not so easy to discern. It's so tertiary education is a, you know, is the post schooling education,
which includes vocational education and what is called higher education, and then manifested differently across countries.
The importance of integrating and augmenting work experience is through three studies which I'll briefly refer to.
And then so what? In the modern era, a key goal for tertiary education has been to prepare people graduates for occupations.
And I would hold that even so-called liberal education sets about achieving that goal.
In fact, liberal education is very much about ensuring that or trying to ensure that the
sons and daughters of upper middle class children end up doing clean work.
Working in the clergy, the public service or diplomatic corps.
So although some forms of of education are seen not to be specifically vocational,
I think there's an argument to say that the vast majority of it is directed towards occupational purposes.
However, in recent times there's the goal has changed somewhat, and that is now there's a strong emphasis on graduates being job ready.
This is one of these slippages in higher education policy or education policy,
which is often made by governments without an understanding of the of the differences between them.
It's funny when I was here in 2003, the last time the paper I gave,
which ended up being published in the Oxford Education Review, was entitled What was it called?
Sorry? From your business to our business.
And what I argued was that business in Australia was saying to Vocational Education System that you don't
know enough about the business of business and we need business to guide the vocational education provision.
And I reviewed a whole series of initiatives that are taking place, and I concluded that business didn't understand the business of education.
And I think this is another of these examples,
because there's a big difference between preparing people for an occupation when you have set standards and actually preparing people to be job ready.
And this is a particularly tough task because, for instance,
we don't know where graduates will end up being employed or the requirements of that employment.
Now if, for instance, a particular occupations say teaching was going to be exactly the same requirements across every school.
That would be fine, but I think we all know that the skills required,
the capacities needed, the disposition that is necessary varies from school to school.
And you could be a great teacher in a small country school and you would been
monstered in a school that is in perhaps the fringes of an Australian city,
for instance, where the kids are perhaps not as easy to engage with as others.
So without actually knowing where our graduates will end up.
It's a bit hard to say that they should be job ready.
And this requires quite different educational goals and also processes than simply occupational preparation.
Now, having said that, I don't think that's a bad thing, because presumably what we want from educational provisions,
the outcome of it is that US graduates, our students should be able to adapt to different circumstances and engage differently.
So for me, it's a reasonable, reasonable proposition.
However, we need the goals and the processes in place to ensure that and part of that is a focus on adaptability,
how we can generate that in students rather than meeting specified requirements and coming from vocational education.
A lot of that has been generated through competency based training and national standards that were to be achieved.
And that, by the way, in a country that what our plumber does in the Northern Territory is very different than what a plumber does in cold Tasmania.
What a horticulturalist does in Tasmania is very different than what a horticultural does in Western Australia or the Northern Territory,
so the occupational practises are often quite different.
So in terms of educational purposes, we know that the project of education should be intentional.
There should be particular goals associated with it and for those for occupational purposes, have particular qualities.
And I use this term the canonical OK canonical occupational knowledge that is the
kind of knowledge which anybody who's working at a particular field needs to have.
And the three kinds of knowledge the what people need to know to do and to value knowing is conceptual knowledge.
The Americans often refer to it as declarative knowledge that is knowledge you can speak or write down.
Then this procedural knowledge and that is how we go about achieving goals.
And that knowledge is not you can't write it down, you, because we don't know actually how we do it.
We can indicate how we think that's the case, but we're not quite sure about that and then the importance of dispositions.
Now these three forms of knowledge are all interrelated.
Whenever you engage in your thinking you, you're thinking in part is is value driven.
And in the process of thinking you're using cognitive procedures and you're also thinking about it.
So the three forms of knowledge, every time you think about something when you drive, for instance, you're using concepts of what is safe driving,
you're using procedures to drive with and you're using values associated with how you go about driving what is safe practise.
For instance, my family tell me that I drive far too quickly and get far too close to cars in front of me.
I claim I'm a positive driver. They don't. Yeah, anyway.
Um, but these three forms of knowledge while they come together, as we think and act, actually have quite different means of being developed.
So, for instance, dispositions values often arise from observation,
whereas procedures to be able to do something that requires sometimes ethical engagement in practises to improve
those and then conceptual understanding often comes about through being able to access and understand knowledge.
Now, while we well and these exist at this level and these are often the stuff that's tried to
be captured in national standards and also in statements about occupational practise,
however, there's also the situational manifestations of of this these that move from the canonical to the actual practise.
And these are what permit job performance and they have.
They constitute particular manifestations of what is need to be known can be done and valued.
Now claim I make is that there is no such thing as an occupational expert.
There's no such thing as an expert doctor per, say, an expert teacher per say or an expert nurse, et cetera,
because expertise involves the ability to respond to non-routine problems and those problems arise in particular circumstances of practise.
So in the state I live in in Queensland, which is a very big state nurses,
the Poisons Act has been relaxed so that nurses I think 250 kilometres from Brisbane
are able to prescribe some kind of medicines because if they weren't doing it,
there would be nobody there to do it. So there's different requirements, performance.
And so we have things like medical,
what medical folk doing a large teaching hospital is clearly very different than what they do in small regional hospitals,
in small country towns, et cetera. The same with a whole range of other other occupations,
and it's the ability to respond to those problems and respond to those needs at local level that really determines what expertise is.
And and educational intents, therefore must include not only the development of the canonical knowledge,
but the ability to respond at the local level.
By the way, I can see somebody taking images this handouts here for everything that's going to be up there.
And there's also another handout there, so developing adaptability becomes an important goal for curriculum and pedagogy.
Some some ideas that help me make sense of all this are as follows that the first one is the concept of a duality
that learning from the perspectives I engage in is that it arises from what the social world affords people,
the invitational qualities, the experience that have provided on the one hand and how individuals come to engage with them.
And whether I look at how people learn in education institutions or in the workplace, I see the same patterns.
It's the duality between those two things what is what experiences are afforded provided on the one hand and how the person comes to engage with them.
And I'm sure you're aware of this adage from education that educational experiences are nothing more or less than an invitation to change.
And it's how students take up that invitation,
which is important and clearly designed to be a difference between a student engaging superficially or just
being directed towards assessment items than somebody student engaging deeply and rigorously in the content.
Also that while there's much talk about independent learners, clearly we want to develop learners who are interdependent, engaging with others,
artefacts, technologies, text, et cetera, and that the integration of experiences that students have is very much a personal fact.
It relates to how that person makes sense of those experiences, how they come to construe them and construct them.
So while we might have educational arrangements to provide different experiences,
ultimately it's down to students in terms of how they come to engage.
And I don't know if this is an issue here, but increasingly in Australia, people referring to work, integrated learning this thing called will.
But I think it's being used and not not correctly, because most of what is being talked about is actually work.
Integrated education and the difference between the two is learning is what the person does
in terms of making sense of experiences and construing and constructing knowledge from them,
whereas education is the provision of experiences.
Now why I think making this this distinction is important is that if you look across the literature on lifelong learning,
what you'll see is most of it refers to something which is lifelong education.
Those reports from UNESCO's the OECD.
What they like to refer to when they refer to lifelong learning is the provision of experiences a bit like this here?
What you miss out in that in terms of lifelong learning, is all of the experiences that people have outside of education,
institution, which and programmes, which is the vast majority of how people learn across across their working lives, et cetera.
And the need for student agency and engagement become centre stage becomes
very important because it's essential to support rich and effective learning.
It's important to press learners into higher order thinking, demanding learning and also to engage with others.
So in the engagement of the learner comes, I think, centrally to all of this discussion.
And yet there are a series of barriers to this happening, and that includes caution on the part of students,
uncertainty on the part of students and also what I've referred to as time jealousy.
Often students are referred to as being time poor, but arising from these studies, that seems to be that explanation is inadequate.
It's not a question of students not having the time,
but rather they actually use their time strategically because they have many, many competing demands upon their time.
Most higher education students in Australia work significant amounts of paid part time work.
They want, they need to do that to survive. They come to the university.
They have won a social life and then we ask them to go and spend time in the workplace.
And so they'll make decisions about what they engage in and what they won't engage in, but also how they engage with it.
And by the way, there's also time jealous teachers because teachers are under all sorts of pressures.
And if they don't believe that something is important, they will engage in it superficially as well.
By the way, there's also resource jealous workplaces because workplaces are being asked to provide experiences for students of all kinds.
Schools, students, vocational education students and higher education students.
The health system in the state of New South Wales and Australia a few years ago,
they said they would have to ration the provision of experiences for students,
and they would first give first priority to New South Wales residents, then to Australians and then to overseas students.
And there has been some kickback from enterprises who are saying we don't mind providing work placements for young Australians.
However, we resent providing workplace experiences for full fee paying overseas students, for instance.
So there's this is a contested area that's emerging as everybody, these different institutions want to access work experiences.
So the first study was a pilot study, and it's fairly small.
It involved four discipline areas of nursing, physiotherapy, human services and midwifery across five university programmes,
and the focus of this was how we would generate students, how we would assist students become active genetic learners and.
The key premises are there that that work integrated learning is required to develop these forms of knowledge.
But it was important that the students had to be positioned as actively in that process,
and it looked at how we could generate these these qualities in those full discipline areas.
The findings are as follows. Firstly, that preparation was provided.
It was necessary to prepare students for engaging in the workplace that merely providing the experience was inadequate,
that more than that need to happen. And it was important to make the students of aware of of the active role that they had to play,
that their engagement was going to be different than it might be in a more passive form of engagement,
such as in a lecture or two told that they had a tutorial.
They had a key role to engage. And having peer or other forms of support during that engagement was often important because it was very important for
students to talk to one another to understand what was going on to share experiences while they were having them.
And the reports came through of of student nurses feeling very lonely in a place, a huge hospital because they were on their own and isolated.
Yet the opportunities for them to come together in things like learning circles, et cetera, was helpful for them to make sense of those experiences.
And students learnt the processes and valued this idea of being a genetic.
And from this was this importance of students having the opportunity to share, compare and contrast their experiences.
The next study. This was a pilot when the next study was a large study that went across an entire group of universities,
which in Australia recalled the the innovative research universities, these universities, I think there was a total of six involved in this project.
The handout reporting the study is this one here, and I'm going to refer to a few aspects of it.
And. What's interesting is that of these six universities, five of them were founded as being social science universities,
but were moving to be what is referred to as a comprehensive university which offers medicine and law,
et cetera, and a key a key concern that the graduates would be employable and that the knowledge learnt would be applicable.
The project comprised collaborative processes across 20 projects across six Australian universities.
And this and the all of these three projects we had within them processes that was about capacity building for the participants,
generating outcomes for them, as well as just participating in a project.
And throughout the project, there was a sharing of of of across the projects to learn from each other that was done with face to face meetings.
And as you know, Australia is a big place. So we had to use video conferences, but we had a dialogue forum where people came together to discuss.
And the important thing is that the teachers participating in this weren't teaching heroes.
These weren't necessarily people who were at the National Teaching Awards or whatever.
These were just plain folk who were balancing their teaching with other commitments, such as service and research.
In terms of the kind of different purposes that that you can direct work integrated
education towards are multifold and the the the here and when you look down that list,
what you realise is that the these purposes have quite different focuses and quite different the processes leading to them.
Many students engage in programmes to participate in an occupation which they haven't experienced,
and that's an issue because they think they want to do it.
But then we find, for instance, there's very high attrition rates. Nursing would be a good example of that where there's very high attrition rates.
Same as teaching and some other occupations. And it's interesting with nursing also in vacation education, with hairdressing we have in Australia,
we have about a 50 percent attrition, more than 50 percent attrition rate in apprenticeships and hairdressing has a huge attrition rate.
And that is that students female students, largely because that's what they are,
dutifully complete a four year apprenticeship and then leave the occupation in droves.
And I think it's an occupation like nursing, like hairdressing.
Young women often engage in that at a time.
They're forming a gender identity and think that being a nurse is a nice thing to do because you look after people and that's makes you a nice person,
and hairdressing is something that you know.
And as a consequence of going into an occupation which they don't know anything about, that ultimately leads to very high attrition rates.
There's a key difference between that, for instance, and if we take one of these have a goal,
such as developing specific occupational skills, you having the opportunity to practise and learn to be a nurse to put.
Dressings on all stents in ought to be a hairdresser to put rods and curlers and stuff in.
So this this key differences in those particular goals and how they're to be achieved, and I'll return to that in a second.
Some of the key findings from this large study, the second one was that again, just having workplace experiences was was was was insufficient,
that they needed to be augmented in some way and the importance of preparing students for and
supporting them during and then finding some way of some way of connecting the experiences afterwards.
Student readiness We often talk about student readiness in terms of their the technical readiness, their ability to engage effectively in something.
But there's also more than that, and that was their interest, and for many of them to go into the workplace was quite a challenge.
For instance, one of my colleagues in physiotherapy was trying to engage physiotherapy students in understanding adult learning
principles just before they were going on their 13 week placement on a mat on that placement for the first time.
They would be laying hens upon patients, and these patients weren't necessarily elite athletes whose limbs they were massaging.
These were likely to be 80 year old people in aged care facilities and trying to get the phlegm off their chest.
But for many of these students, this was the first time that they were about to be judged on anything other than writing assignments.
And so the timing of of of what Liz tried to do was probably inappropriate simply because the students were focussed elsewhere.
As you can, I'm sure you can imagine and also hear the importance.
So the importance of the the experience curriculum,
what how students experience and students make sense of things and what the students said they wanted was incremental exposure.
They wanted to slowly engage in activities and be supported in that they didn't want to be thrown in the deep end.
And so providing students with expectations about requirements was important.
Now a couple of tables here which are reproduced there is that here's some curriculum considerations
and the three concepts I used to help me make sense of curriculum the intended curriculum.
You know what is often written down in a document or a syllabus they enacted curriculum?
What actually happens when it's enacted? And for me, the most important one is the experience curriculum, how students make sense of things.
And in that table, there's a set of considerations for all of this.
And I mean, I'll just take one of these to give you an example here, for instance,
down here providing additional specific experiences for a group of students now.
And one of the courses, it was a social work course, and many of the students doing the course were from overseas came straight from overseas,
and many of them came from countries that didn't have social workers and didn't have a social welfare system.
And on week two of this course, they would be going out to work in social welfare settings, and they didn't have the basic understanding.
So what they did was they put a special programme on for the international students
to help them understand social welfare society and the role of social workers,
and that was to address their needs. It was interesting afterwards, the some of the lecturers said, Well, actually,
probably many of the Australian students would benefit from that as well because they grew up in perhaps
middle class families and didn't have hadn't had experience of the justice system or anything like that.
So through thinking about it, they said, Well, actually, we probably made some assumptions about the Australian students as well.
Now, in another publication, what I did was those series of educational purposes.
What I tried to think about is what are the consequences?
Well, the curriculum consequences for timing and sequence duration, organisation and engagement and kinds of experiences.
So that the simple point I'm making here is that depending upon what kind of
educational purpose you're trying to achieve is likely to be quite different.
Approaches need to be taken and the experiences that are provided.
And then in terms of the pedagogical practises for that come from this,
it was easy to try and locate things of what happens before students go into the workplace, during the workplace experience and after them.
And just to take an example. What? I don't know what happens in Britain, but what preparing for contestation that might arise.
So many students report they go into the workplace and people in the workplace say, forget that rubbish you've learnt at.
University, this is what we do here now.
If you prepare the students and say, well, that might happen and you need to make some judgements about whether what
we've taught you is rubbish and what you're being asked to do is appropriate,
or is there some sort of middle ground that you don't have to take on your supervisors, but you need to think about those things?
So preparing for those sort of things may might be helpful and emphasising, for instance,
that that students need to take an active role as a learner during their work
work the time the and things that they might want to do after those experiences.
So that was a set of of of pedagogic concerns that that drove practise out of that
study became pretty obvious that once students had had the workplace experiences,
they had something to share, compare and contrast with. So that if you only had a pound to spend, that would be the place to spend it.
So this third study, which is the one I'm trying to complete as soon as I can spend the money and on the interest is the focus of this was
to promote learning student learning associated associated with employability through post practicum interventions.
That is, once students have had that experience is what kind of interventions can we have to engage with them to enrich the learning experiences?
And again, this was a large project. It involved a lot of a lot of folk about a total of over 40 projects across.
I think it was 25 disciplines, over 16 universities, I think, and we started off with one group of individuals which were from health care.
There was 14 projects in health and social care. That's medicine, nursing, midwifery, dietetics, speech pathology,
etc. And we started with a developmental conference where these people came together and we talked about what we would do, how would go about it.
They had total freedom to engage in the project they wanted.
So the first round occurred and then they came back a year later and presented their
processes and findings to 30 other projects to go forward over the the next year.
And across all of these, there are a range of approaches adopted to engaging students in these post practicum experiences,
feedback, learning circles, debriefs, et cetera, et cetera.
And we also ran a student survey,
and it was interesting to see what purposes did students want to engage in post practicum experiences and what kind of process did they prefer?
Now this is where you begin to find out gaps in your own knowledge.
One of the assumptions behind this entire project was that the students would be very keen to organise their experiences,
and that came from study number two that students thought this would be a good thing to do.
And the survey results said quite the opposite. So I will show you some of the data here.
We've gone on having published from this as you do, and there was a series of interventions which we suggested to the students they
might like and they to say which of these they wanted and for what reason.
And here is some findings. So what the students said, and I should say, first of all, these students were all from the health and social care system.
And that is, they're they're engaging in occupations that tend to be have a very hierarchical structure to them.
So they might not that might be they might not be common to other areas. But this was the common group here.
And they said that their preference was in terms of purposes was to gauge how they were progressing,
which is not surprising and further develop their occupational capacity so that they would be employed upon graduation.
And so that they wanted to know about their readiness to secure employment, how they were progressing and the processes they suggested they wanted.
Those that were led, facilitated by and guided by teachers or experts, clinicians, for instance.
And they preferred those over student organised and led processes, which is quite the opposite of what I'd expected.
And there was a alignment with what the students were saying, what they wanted to achieve and the processes that they wanted to achieve it.
So there's some coherence there in what they're proposing. And students placed low value.
On peer assistance and feedback, which was terribly depressing. And this contradict contradicts much of the literature,
which is indicating that students want to come together to do this, and they wanted to engage effectively.
And it sort of heightens the concern for us as educators about how do we respond to that,
do respond to it is is what is that's what they want or do we respond in a different way and say, well, that's not what what should be.
Should we challenge them? Should we make them engage in these activities? Here's some of the data.
So this is data which indicates their preferences for particular interventions,
and you'll see across here that that's an aggregation of high preference, OK?
Then over here would not participate. So this is trying to capture time jealous students,
and you'll see that the things they wanted and preferred were working in small groups to three of six three to six students small groups,
one on one with teacher, one on, one with more experienced students and then small groups.
Now this I don't know what you have here. We have called vice chancellors in Australia,
people who run universities and this is their nightmare because what they want is they want 300 students in a lecture theatre.
And that's that. And the idea of what these students are asking for is quite the opposite of what they want.
It's also interesting looking at what they didn't want, and you'll see down here that the students didn't want.
For instance, online mode online moderated by a tutor online with peers presentation to peers that wasn't at all popular.
And something students should organise, they didn't like that at all. Now the point is that students have the capacity to engage or disengage.
And that's why it's important to capture those in the first round, which was in the health and social care.
These are the kind of stress strategies that we used you'll see down here.
The first one, for instance, was an oral assessment task.
And this was used to help nursing students demonstrate and practise their ability to engage in clinical reasoning.
So rather than write a case on a patient condition,
what they're asked to do is to give an oral presentation, which is what they would have to do on the ward.
And so it's putting them in a position where they were replicating the kind of performance they would need to do on the ward and perhaps to a doctor,
for instance. Then there was written assignments and then there was reflective writing and a structured learning circles.
And there was structured clinical debriefing sessions and that was with medical students and medical students are the ones that
claim that they are the most time jealous and with some justification because they do have an incredibly intense programme.
And then personalised feedback and then workshops comprising experiences.
There's a whole range of these initiatives, which were enacted far too many to refer to here.
And some of the key issues that came and this is almost the last slide.
You'll be pleased to know some of the key issues that came from this are as follows that.
Firstly, learner expectation. Students really valued these interventions when they could see the worth in them,
when they built their capacities to be able to practise effectively in a way that reflected the stage
of readiness where they were at and the kind of goals they were trying to achieve and readiness
and is important in terms of students being adequately prepared for practicum so they can go in and
contribute something and they've got something to share and negotiate with with other students.
And this issue kept on coming up about students being Tom Jealous or time pressures.
For instance, in one of the projects, the. It was in dietetics and at the end of the end of the year,
they brought all of that as dietetic students together and put them through this daylong group
process where they shared their ideas and they started off one on one move to small groups,
and they're allowed to exclude things that they didn't want to share with others.
And then they moved into a whole group activity. The students rated it as being a very productive session.
They thought it was great. But when they asked them, would you repeat it, would you be involved in again?
It was very high incidence of them saying no.
So even something that I appreciated the whole time jealousy thing, so this whole issue of engagement of students is not something that's trivial.
I think it's quite central to to what's going on. And this other issue is, do you make an activity compulsory or voluntary?
If you make it compulsory, students engage in it,
but they might engage in it quite superficially and other work I've done with students doing learning journals, you know,
with the right up journals in midwifery and in one programme,
the students had to write up a learning journal for every print, you know, at the birth of every child.
And the first ones were written out in great detail. Poetic.
It was a clear night. The child's cry was heard.
A baby is born by thirty two.
It was the sperm dropped out. And so these things can lose their impact because by the time they get to that one, the sick of them.
So it's a consideration of how effective these things can be to be useful.
So if you make them compulsory, there's a risk. And the other thing was, by the way, that in that project on student midwives,
they said, we interviewed graduates, they said we just fed you back what you wanted.
It wasn't they weren't really reflecting on the stuff they were actually feeding back to pass the course like they were saying,
we fed you about what you wanted because they were very busy people.
By the way, most of them were women who had family care responsibilities and had to do what is called a 30 follow throughs,
which is following 30 women through the entire birthing process. And that was on top of all their responsibilities.
If, however, you make them voluntary. Of course, the students that perhaps most need to turn up don't turn up.
So what do you do? A couple of examples came from this project, which I thought were interesting.
And one was both of them were actually from medical students who are the most time jealous of students.
And in both instances, the students seem to find the activity important.
The the teachers, a woman called Julia Harrison from Monash University in Melbourne,
and she's she's an emergency physician and teaches medical students.
The first one was she gave the students a series of case scenarios online that they had to respond to and they only had to respond to.
I think it was two. And what she found that many of them engaged in three or four.
So they did more than that because they found that to be useful. The other thing she did was that she had this debriefing activity where the students
had to come along because I can element of the course they have to learn about.
And after that, they were put in groups and allowed to discuss recent incidents they'd had in clinical practise.
And this provided a sort of a private space that they could share with other students,
the experiences they'd had, the disappointments they have, perhaps the mistakes they've made.
And once that was established, while not all students attended,
a significant number of the students attended because there was a combination of things that turn up for,
but also an opportunity to share experiences.
So I think it's a difficult balance to make something compulsory with some is superficial, responded to or to make something voluntary.
So I think the Julia succeeded coming up with an instructional design which was engaging for the students
and associated that was having a safe environment in which students can come to share their experiences,
you know, their mistakes and what's been confronting for them.
And that seems to be very important. And I keep on coming across this in a range of a range of disciplines within health care in particular,
where students want to engage with others with whom they can share issues and
have confidence in those people and those people will keep their confidence,
etc. And that actually goes on into practise. And then if you're aware, but there's something in and professional development of doctors,
which are called journal clubs, and this is where they come together extensively to read journals.
But in actual fact, their practise often is that they share recent clinical experiences,
and they do so in a group of people that they can be confident and sharing.
It's confidential. And they know it won't go beyond the group, but these are very powerful learning experiences.
So this issue of having a psychologically safe space seem to be important.
And, yeah, so trying to align interventions that with what the students need to learn and
this and how they will engage in the course outcome seems to be essential.
And I think, for instance, the work that Julia did with her medical students and and some of the others, by the way, was quite effective.
And there in this book that we published earlier this year in some to finish them,
I think we need to position work integrated education well within current discussions about tertiary education.
And this requirement for making people to be job ready and changing requirements have been Japanese
and to assist students effectively engage in the learning process of work integrated education.
And I think there's clear roles in addressing both those agendas and trying to assist
individuals identify what pathways and occupational destinations they want to secure.
And I think importantly, we need obviously students to learn the canons the canonical knowledge of the occupation,
but also have the ability to understand that how practise occurs is going to be different.
And the reality is that yes, the students might have spent considerable time in a work setting,
but the job that they get on graduation might not and is unlikely to be in the in that kind of setting.
So making and developing the ability to be adaptable to those circumstances seems to be an important educational goal.
And sitting within that is that ability to learn across working life.
And hopefully then if this is done effectively, there's a prospect of achieving both societal goals because we want effective doctors and nurses,
et cetera, as well as assisting people engage effectively in those occupations and not leave them, for instance.
OK, so I'll finish there and hopefully some time for questions.