1 00:00:00,210 --> 00:00:04,770 So you've mentioned the exhibition and perhaps we could talk a bit about that. 2 00:00:04,770 --> 00:00:11,820 Could you just say how the how the idea originated to have this exhibition on Tolkien? 3 00:00:11,820 --> 00:00:20,040 Yeah, it originally started as an idea for a Hobbit exhibition to focus purely on The Hobbit. 4 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:29,580 And this was came up in 2012. And that might ring a bell because that was when Peter Jackson's films were in production. 5 00:00:29,580 --> 00:00:34,800 The Hobbit films were supposed to be two films and then became three at some stage. 6 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:40,750 And we were thinking about this going to be another representation on film of Tolkien's works and wouldn't 7 00:00:40,750 --> 00:00:48,300 be nice to present people with Tolkien's vision of Middle-earth and Tolkien's vision of The Hobbit, 8 00:00:48,300 --> 00:00:54,820 rather than just as a sort of counterbalance to Peter Jackson's vision. 9 00:00:54,820 --> 00:01:01,140 And so that's how it started. And we were thinking about obviously we don't have the manuscripts of The Hobbit, 10 00:01:01,140 --> 00:01:07,520 but we were thinking about a showcase of the illustrations, which amongst. 11 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:15,530 Some of the best that Tolkien created his illustrations of The Hobbit and perhaps an exhibition that would tour around the U.K. going 12 00:01:15,530 --> 00:01:27,410 to lots of regional centres and reaching out to communities that don't have the opportunity to go to London to see major exhibitions. 13 00:01:27,410 --> 00:01:33,260 So this was the initial idea. And you know what it's like in meetings around a table. 14 00:01:33,260 --> 00:01:38,130 And and somebody said, well, why are we just doing The Hobbit? 15 00:01:38,130 --> 00:01:45,230 We've got this amazing Tolkien collection here. And then it was like a light bulb moment. 16 00:01:45,230 --> 00:01:56,200 It's like, why are we why are we limiting ourselves in this way? You know, we could do a huge Tolkien exhibition and we hadn't done one since 1992. 17 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:06,860 And it was the last major Tolkien exhibition at the podium. So we're talking about 20 years later, you're reaching out to a whole different audience. 18 00:02:06,860 --> 00:02:12,380 We've had the films that these Jackson films intervening in that time. 19 00:02:12,380 --> 00:02:21,030 And so then the head of exhibitions at the Bodleian said to me, what would you do if you could do anything with the exhibition? 20 00:02:21,030 --> 00:02:25,310 You know, what would you do with it? Well, easy. 21 00:02:25,310 --> 00:02:29,000 Bring them some of the manuscript material back from market. 22 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:35,180 Bring some of that in at the Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, the written material back here, 23 00:02:35,180 --> 00:02:44,840 and showcase it with the drawings and the maps and the letters and that we've got here to just draw the whole collection together again. 24 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:53,960 And that's what I really wanted to do. And that's what happened eventually with the with the help of financial help and trust, 25 00:02:53,960 --> 00:03:01,850 with the, you know, the help of Marquette University being willing to facilitate that as well. 26 00:03:01,850 --> 00:03:08,660 Yeah. And so that's the route we went down. So it was called the maker of Middle-earth. 27 00:03:08,660 --> 00:03:09,710 Did you have a narrative? 28 00:03:09,710 --> 00:03:16,250 I mean, I've never put an exhibition together, but I could imagine, faced with this sort of wonderful collection of material, 29 00:03:16,250 --> 00:03:20,960 plus whatever we could get from Marquette, I'd be like a child in a sweet shop. 30 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:25,850 But did you have a narrative in mind thinking, well, I've got this amount of space, I've got these many cases. 31 00:03:25,850 --> 00:03:38,390 This is the story we want to tell? Yeah, it was very much left to me, but there was some debate about which space we were going to use. 32 00:03:38,390 --> 00:03:46,400 So there was the idea for it to go initially into ST LEE gallery at the Weston Library. 33 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:53,870 So if you think back to the days, 2012 is when we first started thinking about it and started planning at that point and 34 00:03:53,870 --> 00:03:59,210 the Weston Library was had been gutted and was just like a shell and was being rebuilt. 35 00:03:59,210 --> 00:04:04,010 And we'd been promised all sorts of new galleries and new spaces. 36 00:04:04,010 --> 00:04:07,820 But that wasn't an actual reality at that stage. 37 00:04:07,820 --> 00:04:15,170 So we kind of work into something that's going to be a reality in the future, which which together made it quite interesting. 38 00:04:15,170 --> 00:04:22,400 And and previous to the Weston, we had quite a small exhibition room in the old school quad in library. 39 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:29,930 And so we knew that they were going to be bigger spaces. There was going to be a permanent treasures gallery in the Weston Library 40 00:04:29,930 --> 00:04:35,300 and to showcase just all the wonderful treasures that we hold at the Bodleian. 41 00:04:35,300 --> 00:04:41,090 And there was going to be a changing exhibition in the ST LEE gallery. 42 00:04:41,090 --> 00:04:52,100 So for Tolkien initially was to go in the ST LEE gallery and then there was talk of it taking over both and galleries at once, 43 00:04:52,100 --> 00:04:57,510 which I was like, oh God, that would be fantastic. Just like I would like double the space. 44 00:04:57,510 --> 00:05:05,030 And so I started planning for that. And then there was lots of logistical problems around that. 45 00:05:05,030 --> 00:05:11,540 And then it was. It turned around again and he had to go just in one gallery, 46 00:05:11,540 --> 00:05:21,110 so there's a kind of series of ups and downs of how much material I was going to have to have and how much space is going to be available. 47 00:05:21,110 --> 00:05:26,390 So in terms of the overall concept, I didn't find that hard at all. 48 00:05:26,390 --> 00:05:32,870 I mean, I have worked with the Tolkien archive since 2003, so I know the collection really well. 49 00:05:32,870 --> 00:05:44,230 And it was obvious to me that I wanted to centre on and his writings on Middle-earth say The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion. 50 00:05:44,230 --> 00:05:51,830 And then around that, I was really keen to get in biographical elements of Tolkien's life so that we could 51 00:05:51,830 --> 00:05:56,810 just see him as a figure in the round and we could see him not just as an author, 52 00:05:56,810 --> 00:06:04,970 but, you know, as an academic, Oxford, as it as just a real person, a friend, a father, a husband. 53 00:06:04,970 --> 00:06:12,140 And so that was important to me to give a greater impression of who Tolkien was. 54 00:06:12,140 --> 00:06:16,460 And that said the material filled the cases themselves. Really. 55 00:06:16,460 --> 00:06:24,290 And I wanted to have Fans' reactions to Tolkien in one of the cases, in fact, 56 00:06:24,290 --> 00:06:30,080 I thought that that was going to be the final case in the room is going to be the readers impressions. 57 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:38,300 And and this is because we've got a large number of fan mail items, the letters that were written to Tolkien from his fans. 58 00:06:38,300 --> 00:06:46,010 We've got boxes and boxes in the archive and this material has never been available to researchers and hasn't been published. 59 00:06:46,010 --> 00:06:49,940 And over the years I've been working on the Tolkien archive and cataloguing it. 60 00:06:49,940 --> 00:06:54,290 I'd come across some fascinating letters like Terry Pratchett. 61 00:06:54,290 --> 00:07:01,970 I wondered if this is the Terry Pratchett from Beaconsfield, a bit of research letters like, yeah, definitely. 62 00:07:01,970 --> 00:07:08,330 He wrote a fan letters, a 19 year old Tolkien and Joni Mitchell wrote to him and, you know, 63 00:07:08,330 --> 00:07:13,880 asked if they could name their recording company, the characters from Lord of the Rings. 64 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:20,540 And and it's been very exciting over the years to to find these sort of gems and not to be able to share them. 65 00:07:20,540 --> 00:07:24,860 So I was really keen to get the reader's response. 66 00:07:24,860 --> 00:07:29,360 That was one of the first actually you got me that was just there. 67 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:36,450 And so an exhibition is a very fluid process to be involved in and quite late on. 68 00:07:36,450 --> 00:07:46,010 And the development, the whole room got turned around, the exit and entrance got turned around, which is a bit of a nightmare. 69 00:07:46,010 --> 00:07:53,000 And some people did pick up on that at some visitors exhibitions that they couldn't figure out the route around the room. 70 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:58,940 And I have to confess that it didn't really run well is because we'd reversed it. 71 00:07:58,940 --> 00:08:07,250 And the reason for that was that we wanted to collaborate with muralists who do sound and light installations. 72 00:08:07,250 --> 00:08:14,510 And we'd seen their work in Oxford was really keen to incorporate that in some way into the exhibition. 73 00:08:14,510 --> 00:08:20,480 And so they needed a dark, enclosed space to work the projections. 74 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:27,560 And so the only space that we felt that we could use in collaboration with them was what we called the transept. 75 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,800 And it's a corridor between the two exhibition rooms. 76 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:43,280 And so we wanted visitors to walk down that corridor across maps of Middle-earth towards the and the doors during at the end and then into. 77 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,940 But that that had always been the exit to the room. Right. 78 00:08:46,940 --> 00:08:57,170 And so some of the cases there, all different shapes and sizes within the exhibition room and they're immoveable, fixed. 79 00:08:57,170 --> 00:09:04,290 So we just had to work within that, we desperately wanted people to walk through that transept and 80 00:09:04,290 --> 00:09:10,520 be immersed in this mural projections before they entered the exhibition. 81 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:23,030 And for that, we had to sacrifice some of the logic of when you entered the room that you didn't it didn't follow round so easily, 82 00:09:23,030 --> 00:09:28,410 the room around the room. And so the graphic designer helped hugely with that. 83 00:09:28,410 --> 00:09:33,170 So she put a Smaug dragon on the floor. 84 00:09:33,170 --> 00:09:37,220 So she came in. You kind of turned towards that. 85 00:09:37,220 --> 00:09:47,550 And we hoped that people would then go to the fan mail. And that made as much sense to put that first, put it last, actually, and to see and. 86 00:09:47,550 --> 00:09:55,020 What did people think of Tolkien who was doing what? How did they respond to him and to line that case with his works as well? 87 00:09:55,020 --> 00:10:00,270 His published works. And it did leave people looking around the room. 88 00:10:00,270 --> 00:10:09,240 And where do I go next? So in a sense, it didn't matter which case she went to. 89 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:17,400 And there was a biographical case in the centre of the room which told you something about his early life and student days, 90 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:21,510 but it wasn't really chronological- sort of thematic. 91 00:10:21,510 --> 00:10:27,540 There's the extraordinary photo of him in Exeter College. And you either ring or block it out, 92 00:10:27,540 --> 00:10:33,400 all the ones who didn't come back from the First World War was very moving. 93 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:41,590 Yeah, there was a kind of tussle with a graphic designer over whether the men, 94 00:10:41,590 --> 00:10:50,400 the boys who had died in the war should be ghosted out or whether it was the people who survived it. 95 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:59,730 I wanted it to be the people who died who were then only spread out the design and wanted it to be the other way around. 96 00:10:59,730 --> 00:11:07,740 But yeah, it's very visually striking. You see, it's lovely matriculation photo and they do look very young. 97 00:11:07,740 --> 00:11:16,710 And despite all wearing suits and ties in 1911 and then to see how that was decimated by the First World War. 98 00:11:16,710 --> 00:11:23,550 And it's just it's very visual and it has had a great impact, I think, on people who came to the exhibition. 99 00:11:23,550 --> 00:11:28,920 So apart from the feedback that some people have got a bit confused, it was an extraordinary success. 100 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:34,860 I mean, I remember sitting in queues, you know, and the posters were up. 101 00:11:34,860 --> 00:11:41,590 And every time I came into the hall of people queuing. Have you got any idea the numbers that just attended the exhibition? 102 00:11:41,590 --> 00:11:49,320 Yeah, yeah. We had a hundred and thirty eight thousand visitors in 21 weeks. 103 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:53,880 We'd never had numbers like that for any Bodleian exhibition. 104 00:11:53,880 --> 00:12:03,690 I mean, it's just the whole that all the statistics around the exhibition or, you know, highest, the best or the biggest ever. 105 00:12:03,690 --> 00:12:07,890 The book to accompany Maker of Middle Earth was the biggest we'd ever publish. 106 00:12:07,890 --> 00:12:14,490 To date is the most successful. It's been translated into five different languages now. 107 00:12:14,490 --> 00:12:21,840 And you know that the communications team that worked really hard on promoting the exhibition 108 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:29,910 and they'd never had so many pieces of coverage in both UK and international news and the shop, 109 00:12:29,910 --> 00:12:36,390 retail sales of the product range outstripped anything they'd ever done and caused 110 00:12:36,390 --> 00:12:40,830 almost a bit of a meltdown with the retail staff because they just couldn't cope 111 00:12:40,830 --> 00:12:45,120 with the numbers who would come in and the number of sales that were coming in 112 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:50,580 online as well that they were having to package up and send out across the world. 113 00:12:50,580 --> 00:12:59,180 And, you know, we desperately kind of needed to take on more stuff in the shop as the exhibition went on and. 114 00:12:59,180 --> 00:13:03,020 I say that was that was really difficult for the retail staff to cope pretty well, 115 00:13:03,020 --> 00:13:10,160 but it was an amazing range that they'd created and it was the first time that we'd been able 116 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:19,940 to sell Tolkien images of Tolkien's drawings on objects and items that weren't on paper. 117 00:13:19,940 --> 00:13:27,440 So in the past, we'd always had an agreement with the interest that we could use those images on paper products. 118 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:33,410 So a poster or a postcard or a greeting card. 119 00:13:33,410 --> 00:13:41,240 And and they very generously gave us the rights to use those and put the proceeds to benefit the library. 120 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:46,820 But for the exhibition, we wanted a much bigger range of items than people expect when they go to any 121 00:13:46,820 --> 00:13:53,570 big exhibition show how to get the tea towel or the fridge magnet. 122 00:13:53,570 --> 00:14:02,030 And so there was a lot of hard work went into that with the licence with Tolkien's estate and with their family support. 123 00:14:02,030 --> 00:14:12,830 And out of this Bodleian retail manager just put together this beautiful range, you know, with everything from jewellery to mugs. 124 00:14:12,830 --> 00:14:17,030 Yeah. Just to point out for anyone listening, you can still go on the shop. 125 00:14:17,030 --> 00:14:21,440 Bodleian site. It's still being sold. 126 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:26,990 It is is a beautiful range. Yeah. The catalogue you mentioned, 127 00:14:26,990 --> 00:14:32,250 which in itself is an absolutely joyous production because in there's all kinds 128 00:14:32,250 --> 00:14:36,830 of illustrations in there some of which you couldn't include in the exhibition. 129 00:14:36,830 --> 00:14:42,800 So in that it's an invaluable book. But also you selected a lot of essays by Tolkien scholars. 130 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:47,390 So that must have required quite a bit of work on your part. 131 00:14:47,390 --> 00:15:01,370 Yeah, I'm certainly a busy few years and the exhibition and the book together had to work in tandem because the book was an exhibition catalogue, 132 00:15:01,370 --> 00:15:08,720 which means that we wanted to show an image of every item in the exhibition and have a text about that. 133 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:15,140 So we had to follow closely very closely and the exhibition planning and production. 134 00:15:15,140 --> 00:15:20,030 But obviously I was doing everything in the book and the exhibition. 135 00:15:20,030 --> 00:15:26,840 It took five years to plan the exhibition and one year of that was writing the book. 136 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:33,920 And the difficulty was keeping in mind the difference between an exhibition and a book. 137 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:39,320 It sounds maybe a bit odd. It's obvious, though, that two completely different things. 138 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:49,070 But an exhibition is an experience. It's a show. It's you know, you've got to bear in mind that people just walk round, they're tired. 139 00:15:49,070 --> 00:15:53,420 They can only concentrate, you know, for a certain amount of time. 140 00:15:53,420 --> 00:16:00,920 You've got to keep the captions very short. And otherwise, people just cannot engage with everything in the room. 141 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:09,590 A book, you've got much more space in there, you know, limited and you can expand and you've got a different audience. 142 00:16:09,590 --> 00:16:14,300 And so it was just trying to because the two are very closely meshed in my mind. 143 00:16:14,300 --> 00:16:23,650 It was just trying to keep a little bit of a distinction between what the exhibition is going to be and what the outcome is going to be. 144 00:16:23,650 --> 00:16:30,810 And we really have an amazing exhibitions team in the building and quite small team. 145 00:16:30,810 --> 00:16:38,390 You see, I think there's five of them. And I worked really closely with head of exhibitions. 146 00:16:38,390 --> 00:16:44,900 So every item I selected to go into the exhibition and we would have a session where we 147 00:16:44,900 --> 00:16:50,840 laid out the case and on the table all the items that were going to go in the case. 148 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,600 And then we would have a discussion. You say, well, why? Why do you want this item? 149 00:16:54,600 --> 00:17:03,500 You know, what does this say? You know, what is this going to add to it? Or and, you know, maybe we need more items in that case. 150 00:17:03,500 --> 00:17:09,710 And so it's quite funny. When we started at the very outset of the exhibition and the team said to me, 151 00:17:09,710 --> 00:17:16,520 you can only have between 60 and 70 items in the exhibition room because otherwise it's just crowded. 152 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:20,600 It's not really a big room and the cases get crowded and people can't see. 153 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:29,000 And I thought, no, I don't think so, because the difference between Tolkien and maybe other exhibitions that we've put on here is that we 154 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:36,140 would often have a lot of books and books open out and take a lot of room in an exhibition case. 155 00:17:36,140 --> 00:17:38,150 But Tolkien worked on a very small scale. 156 00:17:38,150 --> 00:17:46,820 So even items which you might even I imagine them to be quite big in my mind, like The Hobbit dust jacket is actually quite a small item. 157 00:17:46,820 --> 00:17:54,050 And those Hobbit watercolour illustrations like Smaug and the Eagles, they're only a small pieces of paper. 158 00:17:54,050 --> 00:17:58,820 And so as we went along, I pushed and pushed to add 159 00:17:58,820 --> 00:18:08,660 A number of items and we got up to 220 items and 200 books, 160 00:18:08,660 --> 00:18:13,070 I mean, exhibitions absolutely know what they're doing and how to lay out. 161 00:18:13,070 --> 00:18:21,260 Looks so beautiful. But even they realise that that, OK, it's all single sheets of paper and it's all quite small. 162 00:18:21,260 --> 00:18:29,630 And so when we came to look at the the Doodles newspaper, which proved to be really popular section, 163 00:18:29,630 --> 00:18:37,430 that took me by surprise actually in the comments afterwards in the Visitor books, people loved those newspaper doodles. 164 00:18:37,430 --> 00:18:44,630 I'm still wondering why and follow up on their, you know, their Elvish designs or. 165 00:18:44,630 --> 00:18:50,840 Yeah, yeah. But you think, well, the most beautiful artwork like The Hobbit watercolours. 166 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:57,350 But there was something about the immediacy of those doodles that people everybody's doodle as well themselves, haven't they, 167 00:18:57,350 --> 00:19:03,650 that they've been in the boring lesson or boring faculty meeting and they doodle something and they thought, 168 00:19:03,650 --> 00:19:08,540 gosh, even, you know, Tolkien was doing this and then he created something more from him. 169 00:19:08,540 --> 00:19:15,950 Maybe it was that anyway, when we were selecting items for that case, we realised we can get more and more. 170 00:19:15,950 --> 00:19:18,530 So in the end, 171 00:19:18,530 --> 00:19:27,830 the book did get a little bit out of sync with the exhibition because the book has to be finished and go off to the publisher to be printed, 172 00:19:27,830 --> 00:19:35,780 you know, almost nine months in advance. And during that time, we're still adding material to the exhibition. 173 00:19:35,780 --> 00:19:40,490 So there was more in the exhibition than you see in the book, 174 00:19:40,490 --> 00:19:49,430 because even the week that we were installed in the exhibition, which is a really hectic time, they would say, oh, 175 00:19:49,430 --> 00:19:55,760 I think we could have more fun mail items, like in the stack, 176 00:19:55,760 --> 00:20:02,260 like rummaging through boxes and pulling stuff out and just, yeah, just arrange in the case. 177 00:20:02,260 --> 00:20:06,950 It was similar with the doodles as well. We realised we could get more in there. 178 00:20:06,950 --> 00:20:14,660 So really, it's a really exciting time and exhibitions are like that all the time and it builds up, builds up. 179 00:20:14,660 --> 00:20:22,370 So this is like huge crescendo where they're trying to put everything into the case and have it look beautiful before opening day. 180 00:20:22,370 --> 00:20:26,060 You mentioned the feedback. Was there anything that sort of leapt out? 181 00:20:26,060 --> 00:20:34,320 I mean, the bit about the doodles and anything else that leapt out that you just remember that for the future? 182 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:42,080 Yeah. The thing that took us all by surprise, I think, was the emotional response to the exhibition. 183 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,600 And that really comes out in the visitor books. 184 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:54,890 So we always lay out a Visitor notebook at the end of the exhibition at the exit, and we usually fill about four books. 185 00:20:54,890 --> 00:21:06,620 So they were filling one every week for Tolkien. So we got 20 visitor books full of comments and there's a marked section for you to fill in. 186 00:21:06,620 --> 00:21:12,410 It has like six or seven lines and generally people just say wonderful, you know, lovely. 187 00:21:12,410 --> 00:21:15,320 But Tolkien, they just fill these sections up. 188 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:23,840 You know, they had stories about, you know, memories of their father reading it to them, of how it helped them through difficult times in their lives. 189 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:29,570 You know, how they'd waited all their life to see it was just it was really overwhelming to see 190 00:21:29,570 --> 00:21:36,260 those comments and to see the connexion that people felt with with Tolkien's work, 191 00:21:36,260 --> 00:21:45,480 how important it was to them and and and, yeah, how how moved they felt by the exhibition. 192 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:51,530 And that was actually a comment that Tolkien's daughter, Priscilla, said to me when she came out. 193 00:21:51,530 --> 00:22:00,050 She came to visit a number of times just incognito and and because she lives in Oxford and was able to come in and wander around. 194 00:22:00,050 --> 00:22:04,340 And she had a free pass, obviously, to get into the exhibition whenever she wanted to. 195 00:22:04,340 --> 00:22:13,640 And she said she kind of felt overwhelmed by seeing the material there and incredibly moved by it because, 196 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,700 of course, it's material that it came to the Bodleian decades ago. 197 00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:28,880 It was he's he's not seen it. And we had very personal items on display from family photographs to objects that the family members. 198 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:34,550 And so she said initially she came and on the first couple of visits have brought 199 00:22:34,550 --> 00:22:39,080 people with her friends and and people who she wanted to show around the exhibition, 200 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:44,360 but then realised that she actually needed to come on her own and just, you know, take it, 201 00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:51,620 take everything in just being strong and emotional for you can imagine what it must be like to see this contribution. 202 00:22:51,620 --> 00:22:56,900 Will all these memories of your father's life and your childhood and growing up. 203 00:22:56,900 --> 00:23:04,350 But then then the visitors book. The impact there is that on so many people, yeah, it was extraordinary. 204 00:23:04,350 --> 00:23:15,250 Yeah, and I think that was probably the the best thing about it for me was just seeing the joy that people got from the exhibition. 205 00:23:15,250 --> 00:23:21,960 So I'm based in the same building in the Weston Library and and my office. 206 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:26,010 I can and come out of my office into the corridor and I can look down into the 207 00:23:26,010 --> 00:23:31,320 space that's Blackwells hall and which is sort of the entry space to the exhibition. 208 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:36,720 And just to see the buzz down there, to see people, you know, excited, getting tickets, 209 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:45,240 queuing up and then coming out and talking about it or just to hop into the exhibition room at any point during its run. 210 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:53,100 And just to hear the comments. It was yeah, it was really, really lovely and a busy time for me. 211 00:23:53,100 --> 00:23:55,350 Back to that comment at the beginning of this interview. 212 00:23:55,350 --> 00:24:02,580 You mentioned the girl you were talking to said about you can find messages in the book for getting you through. 213 00:24:02,580 --> 00:24:09,990 Yes, they are books that a lot of people emotionally associate with for all kinds of reasons. 214 00:24:09,990 --> 00:24:13,600 But the other thing was, it wasn't just an exhibition that was fantastic. 215 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:18,540 There was all this raft of events around them. I remember there were talks. 216 00:24:18,540 --> 00:24:25,600 And so were you involved in, in thinking about the scheduling or the types of things we should be putting in some of it, 217 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:36,420 I wasn't to be honest, I was so busy with the book and the exhibition that I didn't have a lot of time that I could devote to the outreach. 218 00:24:36,420 --> 00:24:42,060 And just looking back now, I have no idea how we managed to put on so much. 219 00:24:42,060 --> 00:24:48,540 And we could you know, you think we could have done so much more, but we just don't have the staff and we didn't have the staff then. 220 00:24:48,540 --> 00:24:58,410 So we have one person at the time who was the education officer who is responsible for and school groups and outreach. 221 00:24:58,410 --> 00:25:04,770 And she already had quite a full programme, regardless of the Tolkien exhibition. 222 00:25:04,770 --> 00:25:11,370 But she was responsible for putting on all the activities associated with the library late. 223 00:25:11,370 --> 00:25:16,470 And so in the library was an event that we put on about once a term. 224 00:25:16,470 --> 00:25:22,260 And there was an evening event in Blackwells hall for the public. 225 00:25:22,260 --> 00:25:27,900 Lots of different activities happening in the space and usually related to an exhibition. 226 00:25:27,900 --> 00:25:33,660 And the aim of that like relates is to bring in a different kind of audience to the library, 227 00:25:33,660 --> 00:25:41,730 to bring in a younger audience, to bring in people who've who've never come to the podium of the university before. 228 00:25:41,730 --> 00:25:45,630 So Tolkien was very successful, like Relate. 229 00:25:45,630 --> 00:25:53,060 They had 400 people that for a couple of hours in the evening and put on all sorts of amazing events. 230 00:25:53,060 --> 00:26:03,210 That's our educational process, from like the real riders of Rohan or Anglo Saxon actors and to 231 00:26:03,210 --> 00:26:09,910 people help in public create and bookmarks each and Elvish script and tell them, 232 00:26:09,910 --> 00:26:16,680 well, we had an artist I've got to is helping people create their own illustrations. 233 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,220 And there was a living library of academics. 234 00:26:20,220 --> 00:26:30,570 And so you could go over and select an academic to chat to with an interest in and in talking a real personal engagement with an expert. 235 00:26:30,570 --> 00:26:32,640 And there's many talks. Yeah. Yeah. 236 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:42,510 And that was one of those that was also repeated in September for the Oxford Open Doors weekend, which is like the Heritage Weekend. 237 00:26:42,510 --> 00:26:46,110 And then we got in one day in September. 238 00:26:46,110 --> 00:26:54,760 We got 5000 people into hall. And you were part of that Stuart as well, delivering a talk. 239 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,840 And I wasn't involved in setting the up. 240 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:07,710 And I wasn't and I wasn't involved in the open doors day, but I just went along sort of incognito and and took part in some of the events. 241 00:27:07,710 --> 00:27:16,080 And so I was sitting at an arts table and I was creating a badge with a Silmarillion sort of heraldic crest on it. 242 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:21,970 And I was chatting to the lady next to me and she was getting all emotional about the exhibition. 243 00:27:21,970 --> 00:27:26,430 She had to come from America and it was so important to her. 244 00:27:26,430 --> 00:27:32,370 And I said, Oh, I'm a curator. And she just couldn't speak. She was I think she was just overwrought. 245 00:27:32,370 --> 00:27:42,120 You. Oh, my God. And it was like, oh, like maybe I've said the wrong thing now because it is sort of a combination of that. 246 00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:46,170 And she just she just didn't know what to say. But it's just yeah. 247 00:27:46,170 --> 00:27:53,670 It was just amazing to see people enjoying it. And also for me to be able to share all these highlights of the collections, 248 00:27:53,670 --> 00:27:59,290 like I mentioned with fanmail, and to share the artwork, which is usually not available even to. 249 00:27:59,290 --> 00:28:08,680 Researchers and just to put on all the highlights and to to share, if he couldn't see the enjoyment from his his fans and readers and yeah, 250 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:15,850 that was the best thing about it for me. And for anyone listening that a lot of the talks were recorded on there on the Bodley podcast page. 251 00:28:15,850 --> 00:28:19,960 So you can go and see them. Yeah, but yeah, just just to finish on it. 252 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:26,380 I remember there was the launch event and you were talking about people coming from, you know, 253 00:28:26,380 --> 00:28:31,660 corners of the earth to see this exhibition because it's international and a preopening in the King's arms. 254 00:28:31,660 --> 00:28:36,730 There are all these Tolkien scholars and then we have that lovely meal in the end in the divinity school. 255 00:28:36,730 --> 00:28:44,050 I think it was I can't quite remember. And there was the lightning storm and it was like the Notion Club papers. 256 00:28:44,050 --> 00:28:47,830 Yeah, one was. Yeah, it was a wonderful evening. 257 00:28:47,830 --> 00:28:51,550 And in terms of like that, the visitor numbers, 258 00:28:51,550 --> 00:29:02,710 we because it was the first ticketed event exhibition that we ever put on because I personally had concerns of huge queues everywhere. 259 00:29:02,710 --> 00:29:08,200 And I didn't want people to have to queue around the block for two hours to get in to see the exhibition. 260 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:18,760 I really I was really against that. And so after so many meetings, can't tell you had so many months and we decided to go down the route of ticketing. 261 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:29,010 Now, it was free, but in order to set up a ticketing system and to make it work, we had to charge £1 a sort of booking fee. 262 00:29:29,010 --> 00:29:32,700 And to make to make that work, it was hugely expensive, actually. 263 00:29:32,700 --> 00:29:39,240 And so it gave you a time ticket and it sort of it meant that there wasn't a build-Up of queues, 264 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,870 but it also meant that we could capture some data on the visitors, 265 00:29:42,870 --> 00:29:47,880 because when you booked your ticket, you put down some details like your postcode and things like that. 266 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:54,180 So we were able to see that 20 percent of the visitors came from overseas. 267 00:29:54,180 --> 00:30:02,400 And we could also see that I think about 50 percent of our visitors came from Oxford and Oxfordshire, 268 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:17,520 and that was actually really important to us was to to use this exhibition and the appeal of Tolkien to sort of reach out beyond the usual clientele, 269 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:22,740 if you like, that would come to Bodleian exhibitions or Bodleian talks about an events. 270 00:30:22,740 --> 00:30:28,260 And typically these are older people, or if they had an association with the university, 271 00:30:28,260 --> 00:30:36,630 they're the current staff and former staff or and and we really we want to get rid of those people, but we really want to reach out beyond. 272 00:30:36,630 --> 00:30:40,260 And we thought Tolkien is the exhibition where we can do this. 273 00:30:40,260 --> 00:30:50,370 And so we did have additional marketing to reach out to groups in Oxford and to reach people 274 00:30:50,370 --> 00:30:55,710 who never come into the public library and never had anything to do with the university, 275 00:30:55,710 --> 00:30:59,430 thinks that maybe that that was up to them. The Weston Library wasn't there for them. 276 00:30:59,430 --> 00:31:10,150 And I'm just at these range of events like the like really and open doors that Tolkien pub quiz and to bring in people into the space. 277 00:31:10,150 --> 00:31:17,430 And I think 70 percent of people who came to the exhibition had never been in the audience before. 278 00:31:17,430 --> 00:31:21,960 So we really. Yeah, we nailed it. Yeah, absolutely. 279 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:31,620 And then, of course, it went abroad somewhere. Did you have much involvement in the exhibition in the States or in Paris? 280 00:31:31,620 --> 00:31:40,080 Well, the states was very closely tied to the exhibition at the Morgan Library in New York, was very closely tied to our exhibition. 281 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:46,020 So in fact, they took a subset of our exhibition. They took about half the items. 282 00:31:46,020 --> 00:31:51,060 And so that curator there selected those items. I wasn't involved in that. 283 00:31:51,060 --> 00:31:58,440 And they configured them for their space and that it was just a subset of our exhibition. 284 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:06,420 And so they were able to also take the book and the retail product range because that would work as well for them. 285 00:32:06,420 --> 00:32:10,590 And that was hugely popular in America. 286 00:32:10,590 --> 00:32:16,200 And the exhibition in Paris at the Nationale was completely different. 287 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:21,780 Ours was a maker of Middle Earth. It wasn't, and the Oxford exhibition at all. 288 00:32:21,780 --> 00:32:26,770 And so they came up with a completely new concept from scratch. 289 00:32:26,770 --> 00:32:37,640 And so I just facilitated that in the background for both exhibitions I would be involved in and supplying copyright information, 290 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:45,640 making sure the images were supplied. And the Paris I was involved in the packing and the installation. 291 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:53,460 So I went over there with and with the exhibitions team and oversaw the installation and which is quite exciting. 292 00:32:53,460 --> 00:32:57,870 But yeah, it was very much a background role that I would be doing from the podium. 293 00:32:57,870 --> 00:32:58,860 So it made me quite busy. 294 00:32:58,860 --> 00:33:06,090 But I wasn't involved in the curatorial decisions and I said, well, I got to the Paris limit and get to the States when I had a different feel. 295 00:33:06,090 --> 00:33:10,140 And it was bigger, of course, but it was then touching on different things. 296 00:33:10,140 --> 00:33:13,530 So if you you know, I have next to your catalogue, 297 00:33:13,530 --> 00:33:20,690 the catalogue from the music rationale and the two wonderful collections going to predictions for Tolkan. 298 00:33:20,690 --> 00:33:25,670 Material, I'm hoping they'll publish their catalogue in English. Yes, yes. 299 00:33:25,670 --> 00:33:29,420 They don't have plans to yet, but that would be great, I think. Yeah. 300 00:33:29,420 --> 00:33:34,290 So presumably with the success another couple of years, we're going to rerun the exhibition. 301 00:33:34,290 --> 00:33:38,120 Yeah, yeah. I think yeah. 302 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:45,350 This maybe people in within the body and I think we've done enough talking now and I know say, 303 00:33:45,350 --> 00:33:51,800 you know, the collection itself has to be sort of safeguarded and protected from too much exposure. 304 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:56,720 So it's had quite a lot of exposure with the similar items or a subset of the same items. 305 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:02,940 Go into New York for quite a major exhibition and then a lot of the same items going to Paris. 306 00:34:02,940 --> 00:34:11,650 Yeah. And so now we have to be quite careful. It's almost like we've used up quite a big allocation of display time and, you know, 307 00:34:11,650 --> 00:34:19,980 the exposure to light and and a lot of handling goes on the exhibitions with the preparation and sending them. 308 00:34:19,980 --> 00:34:26,360 And so, yeah, I'm quite happy to see it resting safely in the strongroom. 309 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,380 Well, I'm conscious of time and it's been fantastic. Just a couple more questions. 310 00:34:30,380 --> 00:34:35,540 I mean, you talked about the fact that it is a living archive in the sense that it is growing. 311 00:34:35,540 --> 00:34:44,810 More material comes in every now and then or you occasionally acquire material and the demands on your time and questions continue. 312 00:34:44,810 --> 00:34:51,680 Are you are you seeing any surge? And in terms of the Amazon series that's going to be coming up, 313 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:57,860 are you getting any questions from the film company or whatever related to the collection? 314 00:34:57,860 --> 00:35:07,580 No, no, I've never had any involvement with the film companies, either Newline or the Amazon production. 315 00:35:07,580 --> 00:35:16,340 Um, so, yeah, that that that totally working without the and the archival material, their own vision. 316 00:35:16,340 --> 00:35:25,040 And I haven't seen any increase in enquiries, say most of the enquiries I get tend to be from academic researchers who already 317 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:30,320 know that they won't need to use the items that we have for the body and library. 318 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:36,120 Yeah, but perhaps as that TV series appears. 319 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,380 Erm I get more enquiries about the second age material. 320 00:35:40,380 --> 00:35:45,810 Yeah. Did Peter Jackson come to the exhibition? 321 00:35:45,810 --> 00:35:50,310 Not that I know of is quite recognisable as well, isn't he? 322 00:35:50,310 --> 00:36:01,990 Well, he is, but he'd fit in in Oxford. OK, so the final question, and I think I did warn you that this is the unfair desert island disk. 323 00:36:01,990 --> 00:36:07,380 If there was a fire or something, what item would you save from the Tolkien archive? 324 00:36:07,380 --> 00:36:10,860 Do you have a particular. Yeah. 325 00:36:10,860 --> 00:36:16,050 So difficult, isn't it? The whole archive as a whole, every item. 326 00:36:16,050 --> 00:36:20,610 That adds something more to your knowledge of Tolkien and his work. 327 00:36:20,610 --> 00:36:29,700 And I have to say just personally, totally personal choices that I would and I would grab there. 328 00:36:29,700 --> 00:36:36,780 And the gardensof the Merkings Palace, the watercolour that he painted for Roverandum, the Children's story. 329 00:36:36,780 --> 00:36:41,100 And I just yeah, I absolutely love that. I could I could have that on my wall. 330 00:36:41,100 --> 00:36:47,240 I could look at it every day. Yeah, that's what that's my favourite item. 331 00:36:47,240 --> 00:36:48,870 Well, I don't know the archives as well as you. 332 00:36:48,870 --> 00:36:56,820 I remember looking through it and finding one of the bits of the Book of Mazarbul and just thinking and I think I've mentioned this before, 333 00:36:56,820 --> 00:37:01,350 it was so strange because I thought, oh, my God, this is the real manuscript. 334 00:37:01,350 --> 00:37:07,080 This is the one that was in Moria and then I turned it over and it was lined like a school exercise book. 335 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:12,060 Yeah, yeah. That is a very flimsy item on paper. 336 00:37:12,060 --> 00:37:19,200 But there was secondary belief there for a moment. Yeah. Really. Yes. Well thank you very much. 337 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:23,580 Has been absolutely amazing. And I'm really grateful for your time. 338 00:37:23,580 --> 00:37:24,740 You're welcome.