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[Auto-generated transcript. Edits may have been applied for clarity.]
I'm Samantha Shannon, I'm the author of the Bone Season series and the Roots of Chaos universe, where it started with The Priory of the Orange Tree.

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It's such a versatile and flexible genre, it can mean so many different things.

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I mean, you have a whole spectrum of fantasy, you know, right from magical realism all the way up to sort of big epic fantasy.

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I think it's anything that exists outside the limits of physical reality, I suppose.

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Um, I mean, it's very difficult to classify, like I said, you know, you can have fantasy that's set in the real world.

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You can have fantasy to set in an entirely imaginary world.

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But ultimately, I suppose it's anything that wouldn't be physically possible in the real world.

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And then how I would distinguish it from sci fi is that I feel like sci fi is maybe something that could be possible.

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Perhaps one day, maybe. Um, although I'm not an expert on the distinction between the two, but that's where I would say that it was.

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That's where I say the line was. I think it can be.

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I think we can certainly remember the people who came before us.

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I think it's helpful to see that it is a very established genre, arguably the oldest genre that is I mean,

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there's so many different folktales and legends throughout history that can definitely be classifiable as fantasy.

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I think the way it can become harmful is when you keep looking back at the past as a sort of the the old guard of fantasy,

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and referring to anything that came afterwards as being lesser somehow.

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So, for example, if you see a modern author compared to Tolkien, for example, there's always this idea that they can't possibly be Tolkien.

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You know, Tolkien's the father of the genre. He is the be all and end all.

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And to even think of comparing anyone else to him is inherently wrong.

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And I've seen that happen quite a lot of times, and I think that is something a little problematic about that.

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It's like this idea that the older authors of the genre suffocate the sense of new growth.

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Um, you know, that's not to say that I would personally compare myself to, um, Tolkien,

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for example, but I think that to suggest that nobody can ever be as good as him is restrictive.

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You know, we have modern authors who I think are as imaginative as Tolkien,

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and it's just it's a problem to me when the past is seen as a source of, you know, the better days, the pure old days.

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So I think everyone should be reading Tasha Suri. She's the author of the Burning Kingdoms trilogy, which starts with The Jasmine Throne,

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which is inspired by the epics of ancient India and is just an absolutely astonishing trilogy.

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Like everything about it is so well considered, from the world building to the lyrical writing style to the character development.

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She's also the author of The Island The Silver Sea, which is her upcoming book.

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It's about, um, nation building. How stories can feed into that is an ode to the power of stories,

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but also warning of how they can be used against certain groups of people and how people who control stories control history.

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Um, so I think she's brilliant. Um, I think in a sense, the fifth season is a really seminal work of fantasy.

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Um, there are so many amazing new authors. Um, there's, uh, sorry, Effie, there's Kat Dunn, um, who've been around for a few years,

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but there's always incredible authors coming up in the genres.

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It feels like a real golden age of fantasy, like it's just an extraordinary time to be working in the genre.

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Yeah. I mean, it's always interesting to see what the next trend or change or development is in the genre.

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Like, obviously, romantic is the new, um, subgenre of the moment.

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Um, it's interesting to see where that will go. It's also interesting to see whether it's considered somehow separate from fantasy.

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So, for example, the Goodreads Choice Awards distinguishes the two because I think that they have quite different audiences in some cases.

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Um, often it draws the romance audience, which is historically perhaps not the same audience as the epic fantasy audience.

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So that's been really fascinating to watch develop over the last few years.

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Um, it's always interesting to see things like vampire fantasy and urban fantasy coming back as well.

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I feel like it goes in cycles. Um, I'd love to see more combinations of genres.

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So I think that the idea of combining romance with fantasy was very fun.

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Um, I combine dystopia with fantasy in my own season series, so I love seeing how fantasy can be used to interplay with other genres.

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Um, and again, it's such a versatile genre. It can do that. You can combine it with most things, and it still feels feasible.

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I was speculative. I suppose Mayfair falls under that broad umbrella.

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I think it can be fancy.

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I mean, I again, I would argue that it's perhaps more in line with my view of sci fi, where it's often very possible in a way that fantasy is.

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And so, for example, The Handmaid's Tale, to me, that is a perfectly realistic scenario.

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I don't really think there's anything fantastical about that.

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I think, in fact, the more time goes on, the more I see The Handmaid's Tale becoming a reality.

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It feels more like contemporary fiction a lot of the time with dystopia.

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To me, I think the way I personally write dystopia, like I said, I combine it with fantasy in a way that wouldn't be feasible in reality.

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So it's essentially about clairvoyant people being hunted by the government and the type of clairvoyance I'm writing on,

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not the kind that exist in the real world. But yeah, again, it depends how you write it.

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You can write fantastical dystopia, but you can also write something that is literally just our reality.

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I mean, many aspects of our reality are deeply dystopian. Many dystopian novel is draw from real life.

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So I would argue that it's not fantasy in the way that other subgenres would be fantastical, but speculative, certainly.

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Um, it is interesting about the kind of, um, the gender fantasy, um,

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because you're right that it was considered historically, you know, a women's genre.

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And it's similar to how the Gothic novel, you know, women were criticised for reading those.

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Um, I feel like anything women read will eventually be criticised in some way.

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Anything that's popular among women, particularly young women, is often unfortunately, denigrated.

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Um, but for a while, I feel that fantasy was considered more of a masculine genre.

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It was seen as the domain of the male nerd, I suppose.

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Um, and then you have the old guard like Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, you know, a lot of the very successful fantasy authors who were making,

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like, the big money, like Brandon Sanderson, for example, George R.R. Martin.

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Um, I think probably there are more female fantasy authors now.

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Um, but I feel like the ones who are getting the, you know, the big adaptations of their books are still mostly men.

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So, for example, you have The Wheel of Time was made by Amazon.

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You know, often these big companies are going back to older fantasy rather than investing in new fantasy by women.

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But now, certainly, I think especially with the advent of romance, um, it is being considered a women's genre.

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I think there are a lot of women in the genre, whether on the publishing side or on the writing side.

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Um, and yeah, there is a conversation happening around romance,

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particularly about whether that's, uh, a worthy genre because it is being read by so many women.

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Um, I feel that some men are questioning, you know, whether women can even write fantasy or whether we're just still writing romance,

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which has, you know, it's the most I think it's the most financially successful genre, but it's also the most criticised, unfortunately.

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Um, so, yeah, it's it's an interesting time, um, to be to be writing.

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Um, I think it's great that there are so many women now, and I certainly feel comfortable as a female fantasy author.

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I remember when I was first published, there was a question of whether I would only use my initials or a masculine pseudonym,

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and I don't feel that so much of a conversation now.

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I feel like most women do publish under their own names.

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It's definitely something I've reflected on, like, would my career be different if I had to used a masculine name or if I use my initials?

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Um, I think it probably would be. I think it's interesting to see the numbers of people who come to my events.

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Uh, I would say 98% women, um, which is interesting.

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Like, I, I feel like I write for women, I write for the female gaze,

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but I'm still slightly fascinated by how few men come to my events, and I don't feel that's the same the other way around.

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I think young women and women in general will read male authors,

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but that does seem to be a bit of a reluctance for men to embrace fantasy written by women.

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I think it's it's definitely getting it is changing a bit.

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I'm noticing more men coming to my events, and there are certain places where I get more men.

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So I've noticed when I go to Scotland, for example, I tend to get more men. I've no idea why that is.

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It's just something I've noticed. Um, but yeah, I think it's interesting.

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The men, yeah, the women seem to have primarily female audiences, and I'm not sure that goes the other way.

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And I should add, I don't mind that at all. Like I said, I have no problem with being a women's author.

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Um, I just, I would like I would love to know the reasons why men seem reluctant to read fantasy by women.

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I personally don't think my work is sci fi.

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I do know that my The Bone season was classified as sci fi by Bloomsbury for many, many years and I have seen people say the bone season is sci fi.

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I think there was sci fi elements to it for sure. I mean, the bone season is an intentionally.

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It's an intentional hybrid. It combines aspects of multiple genres, so mostly fantasy and dystopia.

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For sure, there's some futuristic tech that you could argue is sci fi.

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I think it's mostly because it's set in the near future that people think it's sci fi, and they automatically associate sci fi with futuristic things.

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Therefore it's sci fi. I don't really think it is, though.

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I think just there's elements, but I wouldn't personally count any of my work as sci fi.

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Um, mythology, I mean. Sure.

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The bone season is partly a reimagining of Hades and Pasadena, so maybe, although I don't think I would count it as within the mythology genre.

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I'm not sure. I mean, can anything modern fall under the mythology genre?

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I'm not really sure. Um, I always feel like it would be weird to say yes.

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My work is, in fact, mythology. Um, fantasy though?

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Absolutely. I just I just think I'm combining subgenres of fantasy rather than.

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Yeah, I don't think it's it's not sci fi. Okay. That's an interesting question.

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I mean, I could only speak from my own experience.

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And when I was at Oxford, I don't know if students still say this, but they used to refer to the Oxford bubble.

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This was over ten years ago. So it's very possible that phrase has fallen out of, uh, popular parlance by now.

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But we always used to say the Oxford bubble and talking about the bubble and how it felt like when you were away from Oxford,

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it was like you were leaving this kind of this, these walls around the city.

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You just forget everything else beyond Oxford when you were studying here, because it's such an intense eight weeks of each time.

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So I definitely agree with the sense that, you know, when you're there, you cannot think beyond it.

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Everything in your home is just it just feels like it's so far away.

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For me, I used writing as a way to balance out the intensity of studying,

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so I came up with the idea for my debut novel in the summer between my first and second years at Oxford,

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and then I wrote it, um, in the second year at the beginning, and that's where I got my book deal.

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Um, it was it was an intense process, like I was trying to balance the degree with the book,

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but at the time there was just this creativity was just flowing out of me, and I couldn't stop it.

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Um, I just tended to do my uni work in the day, and then I would write in the evenings.

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Um, I do think the city definitely gave me a lot of creativity.

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Um, some good and some bad, strangely so. I love Oxford as a place.

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I think it does inspire you, and it is a reason it's called the City of Dreaming Spires.

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Um, but I when I was here, I felt very out of my depth initially, like I had come from, uh, you know,

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I'd come from a state school, so I felt a little like, you know, some of my peers, they'd studied Latin and whatnot.

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So I felt like I was just a little bit behind the entire time, and I was a little bit homesick and a little bit lonely.

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And I generally had quite a dark.

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I was in quite a dark mental state for my early time at Oxford, and it got steadily worse as I went through my degree,

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and I think that is what caused me to paint Oxford as a dystopia.

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But then I also had this fantasy side to it, because in my Oxford, um, it's it is still the city that it is,

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you know, with all the beautiful architecture and there are aspects of beauty to it,

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but there's also a lot of bad things that were happening, and that was an expression of the the feelings I had when I was here.

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So I had ends up with this strange, the strange Oxford emerges that is both magical and terrifying.

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Um, so for me, yes, it definitely was a source of great creativity.

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Um, and I'm really glad I wrote that because it was incredibly cathartic for me.