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[Auto-generated transcript. Edits may have been applied for clarity.]
Welcome back everybody. My name is Simon Horrigan and I'm head of the English faculty here in Oxford.

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And it's a great pleasure for me to introduce this afternoon's session.

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And I want to begin by taking the opportunity to thank Bloomsbury Publishing for helping us to run this event without them and their support.

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We simply wouldn't be able to be here today, and we hope very much that it's the start of a long term relationship between Oxford,

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as we know, the home of fantasy, as we've been hearing this morning,

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and Bloomsbury Publishing, who are doing so much to promote new writing in fantasy,

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and also the development of the study of fantasy through its scholarly series.

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So this afternoon session will run from 140 to 4 4455 with a break in the middle.

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And the first part is a chance to hear from editors and publishers at Bloomsbury about the popularity of fantasy literature,

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what the market is looking for and where it's heading.

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And then the second part, the highlight of our school, where we're thrilled to be hearing from two major writers of fantasy,

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Katherine Rundell and Samantha Shannon, both Oxford alumni.

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Catherine was at Saint Catherine's and now a member of All Souls,

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and has just published the second book in her Impossible Creatures series, The Poisoned King.

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If you go to Blackwell's bookshop, you'll see it very visibly in the window on the, uh.

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And Samantha Shannon, who also studied English here at Saint Anne's College.

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And so I'm first going to hand over to Nigel Newton, the founder and the CEO of Bloomsbury Publishing.

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Nigel was born in the US but studied English at Selwyn College, Cambridge.

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Founded Bloomsbury in 1986, was the recipient of the London Book Fair's Lifetime Achievement Award in 2020.

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He was made a CBE in 2021 for services to publishing, and in 2022 was made president of the Publishers Association.

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So please join me in welcoming Nigel. Well, thank you very much, Simon.

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And good afternoon, and welcome to the Bloomsbury session, where we're going to tell you how to harness all of that great wisdom from academics

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and the authors you'll hear from later to become published authors yourselves,

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we hope. I am very excited to be here, because from the minute this idea was proposed to me, I thought, what a great idea!

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Look at those two words Oxford and Bloomsbury.

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What do they have in common? They are place names.

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They are place names that have great resonance because of all of the the greatness that's happened within their neighbourhood.

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So when I named, um, Bloomsbury, Bloomsbury in, in I guess about 1985, a year before we launched,

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I was trying to channel all the goodwill and the resonance of the many book publishers

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who had inhabited Bedford Square in the heart of the London neighbourhood of Bloomsbury.

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Not, as you may imagine, a reference to Vanessa Bell and Virginia Woolf and the Bloomsbury Group.

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But at that time, before publishing became as kind of conglomerates as it now is.

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Um, most publishers were in this one square.

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So in a nutshell, we became we became then our mission from the outset was to publish books of excellence and originality.

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And that remains our mission. Um, 40 years later, there is no better place to explore that than here in Oxford,

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in this beautiful and literate city with such a mix of highly talented authors, um,

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based here, leading academics, ardent readers and intelligent,

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curious students at the Oxford Bloomsbury Fantasy Summer school attending um 2 or 3 of the lectures.

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Uh, this morning I felt right at home because, as Simon said, um, I also studied English.

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It's not, as they try to tell you, a hopeless degree that won't get you a job at Microsoft.

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It's the best degree. And keep on studying.

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Um, but but I was fascinated by how literary critics come and go.

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Uh, in in my day, fr Leavis was the holy Grail.

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Um, and I think most of you never heard of him.

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But anyway, um, so it is impossible to ignore Oxford's place in the making of the modern fantasy canon.

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Um, as we were learning this morning, from Lewis Carroll to Tolkien to Pullman to Bloomsbury, s own authors,

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Samantha Shannon and Katherine Rundell, who you will be lucky enough to hear from in great fantasy writing.

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Originality and excellence are the watchwords those books that take over your imagination,

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building their own profoundly imagined reality that stays vividly with you long after you've finished reading it.

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Now, one of my favourite stories from the publishing side of the History of fantasy, um, is that in 1936,

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J.R.R. Tolkien submitted The Hobbit for publication to the great publishing house of George Allen and Unwin.

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Sir Stanley Unwin paid his ten year old son, Raynor, a few pence to write a report on the manuscript.

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Rayner's favourable response prompted Unwin to publish the book, and the rest is history.

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I was tickled by the similarity of this story to the origins of Harry Potter.

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I took the TypeScript home, which had been given to me with such huge enthusiasm by our children's publishing director, Barrie Cunningham.

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I couldn't be bothered to read it to myself and gave it to my then eight year old daughter,

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Alice, who came down the stairs an hour later, uh, in a state of, uh, being totally transfixed.

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She said it was so much better than anything else I'd shown her.

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And on the strength of that, and the unanimous support of my eight colleagues,

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led by Barrie Cunningham at the editorial meeting, which I chaired in those days, I authorised an advance of £1,500.

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Joe's agent, on the other hand, Christopher Little, played hardball and pushed Barrie up to £2,000.

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Bloomsbury itself began as a fantasy, I suppose you could say imagined by me and later my three.

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Co-founders. Once I got them on board, all of us avid readers working in other publishing houses and wanting to invent something different.

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Together with our authors, we built something real and are now about to celebrate next year, our 40th anniversary of independent publishing.

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In an era when all ten of the the largest publishers, as they were in 1986 when we began,

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have been taken over by foreign owned media conglomerates, many of them controlled by wealthy, private European families.

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Over those years, we published culturally important and best selling books that set in what you might call the fantasy genre,

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including authors like Margaret Atwood,

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Alan Moore and J.K. Rowling, whose once in a lifetime success changed our world completely and shapes the minds of generations of readers.

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And also Susanna Clarke's extraordinarily brilliant Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, Madeline Miller's wondrously imagined bestseller Sersi,

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rooted in Greek myth following her astonishing The Song of Achilles, which was the toast of book talk,

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followed by George Saunders Booker Prize winning Lincoln in the Bard.

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What an extraordinary novel of the imagination that is.

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And then Sarah Jane Maass,

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who wielded her enchanted pen and carved out a whole new genre of romance to see a word invented by Bloomsbury marketing supremo Kathleen Farrar,

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with Sarah James setting the world alight with a passion for reading, becoming the best selling author in the world in 2024.

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In both the UK and the US as well, which is itself quite extraordinary,

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sometimes I have to pinch myself that Harry Potter should have been followed at Bloomsbury by Sarah Jane.

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And my debt of gratitude to the Bloomsbury editor in New York,

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who noticed Sarah's large online following as a self-published author and got in touch with her after reading the first book, is enormous.

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Some of the books I've named just now might not meet your own definition of fantasy.

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There are subgenres and books which are fantasy adjacent, if you like, even haunted by the spirits of fantasy.

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As publishers, we love books which burst out of their genres to reach the widest possible audience.

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As so many of these great works have. This afternoon is about the fantasy of today, not of the past, as you've been hearing this morning.

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Commercially, it's a hot area of the market in the UK and internationally.

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There isn't a big publisher which hasn't started a new science fiction and fantasy

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list since the extraordinary runaway success of the 16 novels of Sarah James.

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There is a strong and thriving sense of community and connection among fantasy readers,

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where the good side of social media is evidenced in their support for emerging talents and improved representation.

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Book talk has been very important.

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Fantasy fans have also led the demand for more beautifully produced physical books handsome, illustrated and collectable.

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Bloomsbury itself is launching a dedicated fantasy imprint this autumn called Bloomsbury Archer,

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under the direction of our fantasy obsessed publisher Vicki Leach Mateos, who you will be hearing from shortly.

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This new imprint will publish books across the full constellation of science fiction and fantasy, and to explain the imprints name Archer.

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You may have noticed, um, that Bloomsbury is colophon.

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On the side of every book is Diana, the Roman goddess of hunting, with her bow pulled very helpfully back into a B for Bloomsbury.

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It's hard to conceive how she could have imagined that all those centuries, millennia before, um, as she hunts for the greatest writers of today.

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Not to kill them, of course, but offer them contracts.

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We have already heard from a number of academics and specialists in the field today.

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Among them that wonderful, uh, talk by Sarah Mugo Rana, uh, an early Bloomsbury archer, uh,

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author whose debut fantasy, Dawn of the Firebird will be published by us, uh, and with great pride in December.

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I loved her, um, her take on the, uh, the, the non Judeo-Christian traditions of storytelling and fable and fantasy.

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This afternoon you will be lucky enough to hear, as Simon has Adam braided from, uh, our own stars.

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Samantha Shannon. Um, her among the burning flowers, the latest in her blockbuster Roots of Chaos series,

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shot straight to number five in the Sunday Times bestseller list when it was published.

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Um, last week. Um, I was fortunate to spend part of the weekend with Samantha Shannon, um, at a literary festival.

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Did you know that the Queen of England has her own literary festival called the Queen's Reading Room, and it took place at,

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um, Chatsworth House, uh, which was the, um, the marvel for Pemberley in the film, uh, Pride and Prejudice.

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So that was all pretty, uh, fantasy level.

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And Queen Camilla arrived in a helicopter and, uh, met all the authors.

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She's a passionate supporter of reading, uh, and of books.

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Um, and and Samantha met her and, um, uh, and then the Queen, who had just been at the state banquet with Trump, flew away again in her helicopter.

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What a fantasy.

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Samantha's first book, The Bowen Season, was published just as she graduated from Oxford University, where she was Saint Anne's College.

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And I think Samantha hadn't even taken her finals yet the first time I met her.

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So if that doesn't give aspiring writers in this room hope and encouragement, I don't know what will.

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Last year, we rereleased the Bowen Season series, newly edited by Samantha, and the series is going from strength to strength,

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with book five out earlier this year and reaching number three in the charts.

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Fantasy is also core to our children's and young adults publishing, where genre delineations are blurred, their roots and missed.

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Legend and fairy tale, meaning that even books for toddlers are packed with magic.

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Which is talking animals and safely scary monsters.

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The books we grow up with tend to stay with us throughout our lives.

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This afternoon, you will also hear from an author who is unquestionably the most important writer of middle grade fiction of her generation,

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whose Impossible Creatures series has been a bestseller around the world,

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and who last week was herself being chased around London by a manticore in honour of publication of her new novel, The Poisoned King.

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Um, I am speaking, of course, of Katherine Rundell, fellow of Saint Catherine's College, Oxford.

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Just to give you further encouragement. The poisoned King went straight to number one, both in the UK and the US, a remarkable achievement.

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Fantasy is also now providing rich material for a study,

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as this occasion itself is such clear evidence of Bloomsbury s academic publishing division is also leading the way.

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Bloomsbury is the most unusual publisher in combining academic and general publishing.

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That is our secret weapon, and other people don't do that.

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The Bloomsbury Perspectives in Fantasy series was the first scholarly series to focus exclusively on fantasy scholarship.

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We expanded our output in fantasy because there was such significant growth in the number of courses

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and modules on the study of fantasy and the writing in in the fantasy mode across the globe.

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As aspiring writers among you might, uh, know, you must seek out the Writers and Artists Yearbook,

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the team from which helped pull together this event with their colleagues from Oxford.

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The Writers and Artists Yearbook has been putting writers and publishers together for 120 years now.

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So if you're looking for good advice on the writing and publishing process,

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please speak to James Reynolds soon and Clare Povey, who are here today, and make sure to buy a copy.

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Here is an interesting fact.

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Did you know that J.K. Rowling found her literary agent, the aforementioned Christopher Little, through the Writers and Artists Yearbook?

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Um, I think she said she, uh, she chose him because she liked his name.

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Because it reminded her of Christopher Robin. Jo even wrote the foreword to the 1999 edition of the Writers and Artists Yearbook, in which she said,

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nearly three years later and a long way from a Corso, I had almost finished writing Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone.

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I felt oddly as though I was setting out on a blind date.

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As I took a copy of the Writers and Artists Yearbook from the shelf in Edinburgh Central Library.

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My friend Paul, who had recommended it, was right and the yearbook answered my every question,

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and after I had read and reread the invaluable advice on preparing a manuscript

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and noted the time lapse between sending the book and getting a response,

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I made two lists, one to publishers and one of authors.

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And so it is, with considerably more cheer in my voice than Paul had in his right now.

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Tell unpublished authors everywhere, writers and artists, your book.

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That's what you need. Um. And I'm running over time.

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Would you like me to carry on or shall I? Um.

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It is time for the panel now. But this is going to be better than anything they say.

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Okay. Um, you, uh, you may be wondering what our predictions are for the fantasy market.

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As publishers, we see big brands getting bigger still.

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See what I mean? Though? Still with room for growth among debuts.

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There will be more cross-pollination and the rise of subgenres, each with their own particular tones, readerships and buying habits.

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In terms of national trends.

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There are murmurs of a return of dystopia who raw calls for more epic plots and worldbuilding rather than emotionally censored fantasy.

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And publishing has long been looking for the next king of horror.

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We were expecting high finishes appreciated in physical editions, spreading into other genres also,

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and it will be interesting to see how the current market for low cost, self-published,

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Amazon driven fantasy develops and whether it continues to feel quite distinct.

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We're in the final stretch. Um, in conclusion, I hope you got a lot out of this afternoon.

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Whether you are an aspiring author or publisher or academic.

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Drawing on my own life experience. It's all about hard work, dedication, luck, and resilience.

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I was chatting to an old school friend in America last month who is the head of neurosurgery at the Mayo Clinic in,

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uh, in Rochester, and the dean of their three medical schools.

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And he said he's now performed 10,000 brain operations, which is quite staggering.

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The author, Malcolm Gladwell, talks in his book outliers about the 10,000 hours of practice you have to put in to be good at something from.

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Music to art. It sounds a bit frightening, but it works.

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Though I'm not sure I can claim to have done 10,000 of anything except possibly eating lunch.

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Thank you for a very good lunch.

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I'm sure you will all go forth with a little bit of magic sprinkled on you as a result of your decision to attend this perfect fantasy school,

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and that some bits of it will stay with you forever and help ease you into your new persona as the next J.R.R. Tolkien.

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Thank you. Thank you so much, Nigel, for that wonderful overview of what an amazing list of authors.

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So could I invite the panel's come up then, please? And while you're doing that, let me just, uh, just say who will be joining us.

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So we have, uh. Zoe Gilbert, Bloomsbury author and academic.

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Who's chairing this panel? Vicki Leach Mateos, who's Bloomsbury Publishing director and a specialist in fantasy fiction.

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Lucy Strong, who's the Bloomsbury Academic editor for literary studies and creative writing.

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And Rebecca McNally, Bloomsbury Publishing director and editor in chief for children's.

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Over to you. Hello, everybody.

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Thank you for coming. Uh, I hope you can hear it's a little flying in here.

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If you can't keep wave close. We will be crossing the line.

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Thank you. I will try to be as interesting as Nigel in the time we have left.

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I'm sorry. Gilbert. I am an, uh, author of fiction that sort of glides between fantasy genres.

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I'm sorry, but I'm here to introduce, uh,

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publishing directors and commissioning editors who can tell you all about the state of fantasy and hopefully what they're looking for.

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Uh, so briefly to introduce Vicky Leach, Mattel's publishing director at Bloomsbury, is building a list of speculative fiction across sci fi, fantasy,

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horror, folklore, mythology and magical realism and is founding the publishing house, his first science fiction and fantasy imprint, as we've heard.

193
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Very exciting. A bookseller rising star in 2022, Vicky has published over 20 Sunday Times bestsellers and prior to joining Bloomsbury,

194
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shepherded Harper Voyager onto an imprint of the year in 2023 as editorial director and Bloomsbury Art Archer is being launched by Vicky this month.

195
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Very first dedicated science fiction and fantasy.

196
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This very excited Lucy Strong is senior commissioning editor of literary studies and creative writing, siblings, Bree's academic publishing division.

197
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She's published critical and scholarly books on genres ranging from fantasy and science fiction to horror and crime studies,

198
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as well as that intersection with creative writing.

199
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She's worked with authors and editors from across the academic landscape, most recently with series editors Dimitri Fahmy,

200
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Matthew Sangster, and Brian Astbury on the Perspectives on Fantasy series A Fantasy File.

201
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Since she could read, Lucy has been lucky enough to edit books on worldbuilding, writing, fantasy fiction, the history of the genre,

202
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and also how sci fi and fantasy writers can have an impact on real world disaster planning and prevention.

203
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:06,840
And Rebecca McNally is publishing director and editor in chief at Bloomsbury Children's Books.

204
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Rebecca leads the children's trade publishing division of Bloomsbury, which she joined over a decade ago,

205
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having previously held roles at Macmillan Children's Books and Puffin.

206
00:25:18,210 --> 00:25:25,170
Her career has been influenced by having a librarian mum and by many amazing role models in children's publishing.

207
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She believes that great children's books make you keep your eyes and mind wide open until the very best antidote to cynicism.

208
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Cheers to that. Bloomsbury one Children's Publisher of the year at the 2024 British Book Awards,

209
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and they publish best selling and award winning books for all ages, from pre-school to young adult.

210
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So thank you all for being here.

211
00:25:49,830 --> 00:25:57,750
And before we dive into the nitty gritty, I wondered if you'd each give me a sentence on which aspect of fantasy you personally find most interesting.

212
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:03,140
And I'm going to pass this like. That's a big question.

213
00:26:03,410 --> 00:26:06,620
Um, I think close up. I won't get any closer.

214
00:26:06,650 --> 00:26:14,540
I just I'm going to anyway. Um, I think the fact that it can just open your eyes, I think fantasy can.

215
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,720
It's what Emily Dickinson says. Tell the truth, but tell it slant.

216
00:26:18,170 --> 00:26:22,910
You can talk about so much in our world. How it can be changed, how it can be bettered.

217
00:26:23,390 --> 00:26:27,710
Um, and just that's probably for me what I find the most fascinating about it.

218
00:26:27,770 --> 00:26:35,860
I think. Um, I think about this with two hats.

219
00:26:36,220 --> 00:26:40,660
One hat is the necessary commercial hat of a publisher.

220
00:26:41,230 --> 00:26:49,930
And what really excites me is having a brilliant fantasy book that I think will sell lots and lots of copies.

221
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:52,390
And then alongside that,

222
00:26:52,390 --> 00:27:02,950
there's the magical power that book will have to shape a child's imagination to give them the tools to travel through the world,

223
00:27:03,250 --> 00:27:09,100
to see opportunities for resilience and hope where it may not naturally be there.

224
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:16,330
So I think about both those things when I'm reading books to acquire and the books that I've read and shaped me.

225
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,940
Um, obviously dragons are the best thing about fantasy.

226
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:29,830
Quite apart from that, I think one of the things I love about it most as a genre is that it feels like a community genre.

227
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:35,360
Um, it feels like, uh, a space where people enjoy it, that people enjoy together.

228
00:27:35,380 --> 00:27:38,980
There's a reason people learn Klingon and Elvish.

229
00:27:39,250 --> 00:27:44,260
Um, and I think it's because it's about creating a setting that you can share.

230
00:27:44,260 --> 00:27:51,760
And it's about radical empathy. It's about creating secondary spaces in order to create new realities with each other.

231
00:27:52,160 --> 00:28:01,989
Um, I think that's the reason that one of the many reasons why fan fiction and cons and cosplay, uh, hallmarks of this genre and less so in crime.

232
00:28:01,990 --> 00:28:05,620
I hate to think of what fine cosplay looks like. Um.

233
00:28:07,510 --> 00:28:12,970
Uh, yeah, I think it's about community. Um, and I think that's maybe my special thing about it.

234
00:28:15,610 --> 00:28:21,700
Thank you. And thank you all. Uh, so what do we mean when we talk about fantasy?

235
00:28:21,730 --> 00:28:28,630
It's a huge question and it has so many subgenres, but I suppose specifically from a publishing perspective.

236
00:28:29,050 --> 00:28:36,340
Could you talk a little bit about how we do differentiate these stories, and also make sure that we find the right audiences for them?

237
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,170
Do you want to start you kind of from the fiction side of things and me?

238
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:55,540
Yeah, I got this. Um, every subgenre from sort of cosy to steampunk and so on, demand something different of its readers and asks different questions.

239
00:28:55,540 --> 00:29:00,159
And I think approaching it from a publisher's perspective is often about, uh,

240
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,180
trying to anticipate what a reader wants and what a reader is hoping to get and

241
00:29:04,180 --> 00:29:07,420
what's lacking in the market in terms of those demands and those questions.

242
00:29:07,870 --> 00:29:12,790
Um, are you looking to the future? Are you looking to the past or element of the past and how?

243
00:29:13,210 --> 00:29:19,870
Um, so I think particularly when I'm looking at what trends are coming and what elements and subgenres of fantasy are coming?

244
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:25,269
Um, I'm trying to anticipate sometimes what swinging, what direction we're swinging in from,

245
00:29:25,270 --> 00:29:30,820
say, cosy to romantic, say from high fantasy over to science fiction and back again.

246
00:29:30,850 --> 00:29:33,370
You know, what are the responses? What are the demands on the reader?

247
00:29:33,850 --> 00:29:44,650
Um, so I'm sort of I'm thinking in that sense intuitively, um, as a publisher rather than necessarily aesthetically about summaries and subgenres.

248
00:29:47,550 --> 00:29:58,020
Um, I find this question actually very difficult because I had this revelation about 20 years ago when we were pitching to an author.

249
00:29:58,470 --> 00:30:04,770
Uh, we were trying to buy that really, really brilliant book. And I went into it thinking, I'm not really a fantasy reader.

250
00:30:05,190 --> 00:30:11,880
Um, and then I looked back at all the books I had read as a child and loved so ardently as a child,

251
00:30:12,300 --> 00:30:20,520
and realised, I think, that children's books are more flexitarian when it comes to fantasy.

252
00:30:20,790 --> 00:30:27,030
And I think children are often broader and more open in their reading habits and less genre specific.

253
00:30:27,540 --> 00:30:35,540
The trade itself, commercially, is a little bit allergic to genre words, particularly science fiction.

254
00:30:35,910 --> 00:30:44,610
You have to be very careful with that word. Um, and I think fantasy is a really, really broad category.

255
00:30:44,610 --> 00:30:53,720
And what it means to me is that there is an element of another world that may mirror us, but it could be coming into us.

256
00:30:53,730 --> 00:31:04,110
We could be in another world. It's a way of exploring ideas and experiencing things that perhaps are beyond the everyday reality you live.

257
00:31:04,890 --> 00:31:08,310
Um, and expanding your mind and imagination.

258
00:31:08,430 --> 00:31:11,790
I don't think there's anything more specific to it than that for me.

259
00:31:13,430 --> 00:31:19,040
Um, just thinking about, uh, fancy scholarship and kind of what we were trying to do with the books that we publish.

260
00:31:19,430 --> 00:31:22,729
Fantasy has always been in flux. It's always changed.

261
00:31:22,730 --> 00:31:30,530
It's reshaped itself. It's reshaped itself. It's drawn on fairytales and folklore, um, and expanded and changed in new ways.

262
00:31:30,530 --> 00:31:35,220
So. Well, I'm really excited about certainly in the scholarship field is, uh,

263
00:31:35,330 --> 00:31:41,760
what are the parameters of fantasy meaning not just in terms of genre, but in terms of what does a fantasy text look like?

264
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,920
And how can a fantasy text be fan fiction?

265
00:31:44,930 --> 00:31:48,200
Can it be a daddy campaign that someone's written?

266
00:31:48,620 --> 00:31:52,570
Um, well. And so that's I think what I think is really exciting.

267
00:31:52,580 --> 00:31:56,030
It's not just about literature anymore. It straddles all sorts of mediums.

268
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:03,169
Um, and what are the possibilities of it? What can fantasy, um, tell us about, uh, world?

269
00:32:03,170 --> 00:32:09,200
What can fantasy tell us and genre tell us about, um, you know, classifications and things like that.

270
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:15,380
So that for me is what I'm kind of I see fancy as very kind of mutable, but also exciting as well.

271
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:17,480
Thank you.

272
00:32:17,490 --> 00:32:26,970
I think this idea of fluidity and flux in fancy and definitions is perfectly welcome to all of us who are interested in writing this kind of material.

273
00:32:27,450 --> 00:32:37,529
Uh, so I'm going to jump onto craft and finding these stories now and ask you what attracts you to a fantasy story again as,

274
00:32:37,530 --> 00:32:42,750
uh, from a publishing perspective? So what's a key list of things you keep an eye out for?

275
00:32:43,050 --> 00:32:50,540
I suppose, when receiving new submissions. Um, again, talking from the academic side of things.

276
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:58,150
Um, I think what we found really exciting with the books that we've been publishing is, um, how there's a perception of fancy.

277
00:32:58,150 --> 00:33:04,510
I think that it's very much defined by the juggernauts, you know, the Tolkiens, the Lewis's, the US and Aquinas.

278
00:33:04,900 --> 00:33:11,560
Um, I'm also I've been fantastic in championing fantasy. Um, and sort of being somewhat the originators of it.

279
00:33:11,980 --> 00:33:19,390
What I love is that ability to find nuance and how, um, digging into fantasy scholarship can really bring out new voices.

280
00:33:19,870 --> 00:33:23,530
Um, for example, we've got a book in our series on William Hope Hodgson,

281
00:33:23,830 --> 00:33:30,160
who was quite influential in terms of weird fiction, um, but completely eclipsed by the likes of Lovecraft.

282
00:33:30,340 --> 00:33:38,890
So what I'm really excited about is that ability to, um, make a picture that's much more richer than I think it's initially perceived to be.

283
00:33:39,430 --> 00:33:44,650
Um, so that, for me, is what I, what really attracts me in terms of fantasy scholarship.

284
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:49,990
Um, yeah, I'd say that's what I think you. Um.

285
00:33:51,220 --> 00:33:59,860
I think it's slightly different for children's and young adult um, and young adult publishing, which is the top end of what I do.

286
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:04,120
It's it's much closer. There's a lot of market overlap with what Vicky does.

287
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:17,080
Um, and for me, and with current trends, that tends to be really strongly character led.

288
00:34:17,110 --> 00:34:27,640
It needs to feel like you have a protagonist who whose central dilemma and journey you are instantly and powerfully engaged with.

289
00:34:28,030 --> 00:34:35,470
Um, and that can be complex, wonderful, immensely imaginative world building around it.

290
00:34:35,740 --> 00:34:42,970
But most why a fantasy that really catches light is character first.

291
00:34:43,900 --> 00:34:47,770
Um, in middle grade and at the younger end of things.

292
00:34:48,190 --> 00:34:54,669
I think the most important thing is that your fantasy world and characters feel real,

293
00:34:54,670 --> 00:35:00,040
that they are vividly imagined, that they are immediate, that you can smell things, you can taste things.

294
00:35:01,030 --> 00:35:06,009
You you can feel that you are there with whoever.

295
00:35:06,010 --> 00:35:09,520
The avatar for you as a reader is in the story.

296
00:35:09,940 --> 00:35:14,530
Um, um, you don't need a map to find your way through it.

297
00:35:14,950 --> 00:35:19,630
You don't need to spend a long time familiarising yourself with the rules of the world.

298
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:25,930
That should happen naturally. As a writer, you need to build out those rules and really understand them.

299
00:35:25,930 --> 00:35:33,250
You need your maps. You need to have it all worked out, and you can work that out as you go and go back and infill.

300
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:38,560
But it doesn't all need to be there on the page, because we need to be able to take it for granted as a reader.

301
00:35:41,330 --> 00:35:47,810
I think the feasts a better end middle grade fantasy. They so like Red bull, Red bull.

302
00:35:48,170 --> 00:35:52,729
Um, yeah. I think when I, uh, it's hard to say.

303
00:35:52,730 --> 00:35:56,710
I don't know the character in the setting. Um, I do those things are really important.

304
00:35:56,750 --> 00:36:05,690
I suppose what distinguishes really good fantasy from really great fantasy for me, um, is writing that feels like it has,

305
00:36:05,750 --> 00:36:12,709
uh, maybe not an objective, but a perspective of a viewpoint, um, a direction where I can see the,

306
00:36:12,710 --> 00:36:17,930
the world building from the magical system through to the protagonists arc are all

307
00:36:17,930 --> 00:36:21,680
tied together to tell the reader something really new or something really familiar,

308
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:27,470
or something really true about the author's experience or about the world that we're in today.

309
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:35,630
Um, and I think when that comes through and it doesn't necessarily need to be explicitly placed within the pitch from an agent,

310
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,140
but when that comes through really clearly, um,

311
00:36:39,140 --> 00:36:42,980
be it in the first paragraph or in the kind of blurb or in the synopsis,

312
00:36:43,130 --> 00:36:49,730
I'm properly hooked because I can work with a debut author as long as there's a spark there and obviously talent in writing,

313
00:36:49,970 --> 00:36:51,470
I can work to refine something.

314
00:36:51,470 --> 00:36:56,890
We can bring out something great, but the idea of being able to communicate something true about the world that we live in,

315
00:36:56,910 --> 00:37:02,780
about their perspective on lived experience through unreality, is so beguiling to me.

316
00:37:03,020 --> 00:37:09,770
I think that is at the heart of like, wanting to travel as part of a loving fantasy, of wanting to explore, wanting to go somewhere new,

317
00:37:10,070 --> 00:37:16,070
be it in the past, be in your own life, in your own mythologies, or somewhere entirely separate to your own experience.

318
00:37:21,500 --> 00:37:30,770
Thank you very much. And I suppose to expand a little bit on that question and turn it towards people who might be aspiring to get published.

319
00:37:31,100 --> 00:37:35,560
What advice would you give to authors hoping to break through in this enormous genre?

320
00:37:35,570 --> 00:37:43,170
And maybe we could talk a little bit about how one finds one's niche if those niches are still there.

321
00:37:43,190 --> 00:37:53,480
We talked a bit about fluidity, and if this magical thing, the USP exists and what that should look like, but all in any advice would be fantastic.

322
00:37:53,770 --> 00:38:02,570
You have heaps of stuff. Yeah. Um, I mean, so I do a lot of, um, editing of creative writing books as well as kind of fantasy scholarship as well.

323
00:38:03,050 --> 00:38:07,100
Um, and just thinking about the things that come up again and again.

324
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:11,120
Um, there is so much focus, certainly in fantasy on worldbuilding.

325
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:17,400
Um, and for me, the well, I can probably recommend a few books, actually.

326
00:38:17,420 --> 00:38:22,309
Um, there's a few on the on the desk out there if you want to go and check them out, but, um, uh,

327
00:38:22,310 --> 00:38:28,010
one the book by Jeff VanderMeer, it's not one of ours, but it's really, really in-depth, um, on every aspect of fantasy writing.

328
00:38:28,010 --> 00:38:31,790
And there's a great, um, section on worldbuilding in that.

329
00:38:32,330 --> 00:38:38,330
Um, but also, I think, um, the stuff that comes up a lot is research,

330
00:38:38,660 --> 00:38:43,340
research in terms of being able to be respectful of other cultures that you might that might inspire you,

331
00:38:43,580 --> 00:38:49,100
but also it can help to know how the world works, how things work before you try and tackle it yourself.

332
00:38:49,250 --> 00:38:53,630
You know, if you're writing a feudal system, for example, go and figure out how it works.

333
00:38:53,780 --> 00:39:00,800
Um, so things like that. Um, and also for me, it's that thing where it doesn't look like a monolith.

334
00:39:01,290 --> 00:39:09,890
Its culture is rich and varied. And if you're seeing, uh, if you're seeing a world where everyone looks the same and acts the same,

335
00:39:10,670 --> 00:39:15,350
let's look at Tolkiens orcs that there's meant to be free in this world, yet they're all evil.

336
00:39:16,070 --> 00:39:24,110
Um, so I think it's that ability to, yes, state what the standard status quo is, but then figure out what the violations are afterwards,

337
00:39:24,110 --> 00:39:29,600
because it's that ability to have a world that feels rich because that nothing is consistent.

338
00:39:30,410 --> 00:39:34,309
Be consistent in your inconsistency when it comes to to writing.

339
00:39:34,310 --> 00:39:39,180
That, I think, is what not having not written or having not, um, edited, uh, fiction.

340
00:39:39,180 --> 00:39:47,210
Nice. But having edited a lot of work on creative writing. Those are kind of things that stand out for me, certainly on one aspect of writing fantasy.

341
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,570
Um. How many of you are righteous?

342
00:39:55,970 --> 00:40:00,860
Hello. And how many of you are righteous for children or young people?

343
00:40:02,770 --> 00:40:05,830
That's really helpful to know. Actually, we've got a very writerly audience.

344
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:20,560
Um, I, I think a really key starting point for you is to, of course, you have absorbed all the influences of everything you have ever read, right?

345
00:40:20,980 --> 00:40:25,930
They're all they're churning away in your creative soul and spirit.

346
00:40:26,530 --> 00:40:31,629
Um, it can be tempting to look at the market, and it is important,

347
00:40:31,630 --> 00:40:39,610
particularly if you are writing for an audience that is not you, although you are always part of your audience.

348
00:40:40,300 --> 00:40:44,230
It's really important to to have a sense of what else they're reading.

349
00:40:44,740 --> 00:40:52,149
But I would be wary of being too led by trends or too led by what is selling now,

350
00:40:52,150 --> 00:40:57,219
or what Vicky or I have told you, we think might be coming through in the next couple of years,

351
00:40:57,220 --> 00:41:07,570
because the most important thing for all of you is to figure out what is your unique story to tell, what is authentically,

352
00:41:07,810 --> 00:41:17,760
truly the book of your heart that you must write, that you are driven to tell whether there's a publisher who wants it or not.

353
00:41:17,770 --> 00:41:22,900
Because that truly is the mark of a really, really true writer.

354
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:28,779
You are driven to it. You can't not do it. Finding a publisher is a really hard thing.

355
00:41:28,780 --> 00:41:36,520
And for a lot of people I know, it feels like that's the the end of everything, the realisation of a dream.

356
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:44,500
But actually that's also in itself the beginning of a journey and a journey that can be a really bumpy one, with lots of ups and downs on the road.

357
00:41:44,500 --> 00:41:49,659
Its its own hero's quest, with lots and lots of challenges along the way.

358
00:41:49,660 --> 00:41:56,140
And I think you need to be really resilient to do any of it.

359
00:41:56,170 --> 00:42:05,230
I have huge admiration for writers, but doing it because it's your passion is the most important thing, and that's all I think I can tell you.

360
00:42:07,810 --> 00:42:14,020
It's really hard going after such good advice, but I think if I can just add on to Rebecca's, it's one finished book.

361
00:42:14,230 --> 00:42:21,610
Yeah. Um, and to have lots of ideas. So I think while it's wonderful to have a brilliant book coming to your inbox,

362
00:42:21,910 --> 00:42:28,030
it's even better when you meet an author and you find out that this might be one of their hearts books, but it's not their only book.

363
00:42:28,030 --> 00:42:31,269
It's not their art book. Foster lots of ideas.

364
00:42:31,270 --> 00:42:36,340
Put books away. Maybe after you finish writing them and challenge yourself to do something completely different.

365
00:42:36,940 --> 00:42:40,300
Um. Try to. Yeah. Love your reader.

366
00:42:40,660 --> 00:42:44,620
Um. And know what they like, but try different things as well.

367
00:42:44,650 --> 00:42:48,070
So have lots of ideas and and. Yeah. Really? Can't say enough.

368
00:42:48,070 --> 00:42:54,940
Finish the book. Okay. Thank you all very much.

369
00:42:55,360 --> 00:43:01,719
I think, uh, I want to turn back to worldbuilding for a little while,

370
00:43:01,720 --> 00:43:10,120
and I know we've talked about the balance in some areas of of this genre where it's not just about the worldbuilding and character matters,

371
00:43:10,390 --> 00:43:16,390
and also some great advice from your books about, uh, being consistent in your inconsistency.

372
00:43:16,750 --> 00:43:26,170
And I guess that's an interesting way into thinking about world building, that it's not just about, uh, drawing on fantastical ideas or tropes.

373
00:43:26,170 --> 00:43:30,310
And we know there are an awful lot of familiar fantasy tropes out there as well.

374
00:43:30,610 --> 00:43:34,179
But for you, kind of what matters most when it comes to world building.

375
00:43:34,180 --> 00:43:37,240
Is it those details we talked about, things you can smell?

376
00:43:37,450 --> 00:43:40,930
Is it being original and avoiding the dragons? I'm sure not.

377
00:43:41,470 --> 00:43:44,620
You from your points of view? Um, yeah.

378
00:43:44,620 --> 00:43:45,669
What feels essential?

379
00:43:45,670 --> 00:43:53,080
And if we include within worldbuilding not just those details, but characters, hierarchies, all the rest of it, that would be great.

380
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:58,089
Um, I say, uh, thank you.

381
00:43:58,090 --> 00:44:01,479
Not cherry picking. Um, I think you touched on it earlier.

382
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:07,660
And I think while you don't have to be incredibly precision, uh, perfect, uh,

383
00:44:07,660 --> 00:44:11,140
consistent throughout every bit of your worldbuilding, at least to begin with.

384
00:44:11,530 --> 00:44:19,240
Um, it's making sure that there is a correlation and that you're not just, uh, falling prey to what could sometimes be,

385
00:44:19,510 --> 00:44:24,760
um, quite lazy cherry picking from different cultures or from different time periods.

386
00:44:25,030 --> 00:44:31,329
It's interrogating yourself. And while you make decisions that you make, um, as part of your worldbuilding as well, um,

387
00:44:31,330 --> 00:44:36,729
and being your own harshest critic, when you do make decisions to write outside of your own lived experience,

388
00:44:36,730 --> 00:44:40,090
which is something that, you know, I think everyone should be able to do,

389
00:44:40,090 --> 00:44:44,919
but be your first critic and be open to criticism if that is something that you're doing.

390
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:50,470
So, um, yeah. So build build from research and try not to cherry pick if you can.

391
00:44:53,110 --> 00:45:01,690
I think that's really helpful, actually, because I think that willingness to interrogate your own work and your assumptions is really important.

392
00:45:02,380 --> 00:45:08,290
And when world building, if obviously because you've got everything in your head already,

393
00:45:09,340 --> 00:45:15,940
it might be helpful to give your book to someone else to read so they can tell you honestly what is missing.

394
00:45:16,180 --> 00:45:22,690
And that actually, a number of times as an editor, I've been really delighted,

395
00:45:22,690 --> 00:45:32,710
as I'm sure Vicky has to find that questions I've asked have led us on an amazing journey that's really transformed the book.

396
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:41,770
Um, and I, I think sort of that openness to questioning and learning to question interrogate yourself is really important.

397
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:46,500
I am really. Cautious about well building,

398
00:45:46,500 --> 00:45:54,329
because I think it's very important in books for children that you're not overloading your reader with

399
00:45:54,330 --> 00:45:59,360
information that they have to take on board before they can get into the story and the adventure,

400
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:04,049
whatever that story is. So it has to be invisible.

401
00:46:04,050 --> 00:46:07,590
It's the architecture that's there. Um, but you don't see it.

402
00:46:07,950 --> 00:46:14,099
Um, and I suppose there are many great examples of that, and I think it'd be really interesting.

403
00:46:14,100 --> 00:46:18,450
I don't know if Katherine Rundell might talk a little bit about that later or Sam, um,

404
00:46:18,450 --> 00:46:23,880
because they're both completely genius at it and do it in a way that feels effortless.

405
00:46:24,570 --> 00:46:33,810
Um, but it is important. No one is going to be creating something that is completely unique because we're all creatures of the culture we live in.

406
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:41,100
Um, I don't expect uniqueness, but I do expect real signs of individuality and originality in there.

407
00:46:41,490 --> 00:46:44,700
Um, and I would hope that you will have the ability to do that.

408
00:46:46,620 --> 00:46:50,189
Um, I just thought it might be helpful to round off with something that I hear a lot from

409
00:46:50,190 --> 00:46:53,550
creative writing instructors when they're talking to their students about world building,

410
00:46:54,030 --> 00:46:57,510
is that you can make yourself think you're writing when you're not.

411
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:06,630
You're just world building and you're procrastinating. So it's that, um, kind of be conscious of just how much of the world the story needs.

412
00:47:07,140 --> 00:47:12,299
Um, so let the story lead you in terms of what information about that world you need to know.

413
00:47:12,300 --> 00:47:18,210
So, you know, if you've got a scene where the character is using money, you probably should have an idea of what the money is.

414
00:47:18,510 --> 00:47:22,559
But you don't need to know the banking system and the, you know, that kind of thing.

415
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:23,730
So it's it's huge.

416
00:47:23,730 --> 00:47:30,480
The story, the world of the story, the lens of the story in the characters to kind of guide you on what information you need to know before you write.

417
00:47:31,020 --> 00:47:37,950
Um, again, coming from creative writing instructors, not not from my, my, my knowledge there, but that comes up a lot as well,

418
00:47:37,950 --> 00:47:42,300
because it can be so easy to be sidetracked from story and writing and finishing,

419
00:47:42,720 --> 00:47:46,410
um, by things like world building, which feels productive when maybe it's not.

420
00:47:47,240 --> 00:47:55,379
Can I have something? I think, um, I often, uh, tell authors, I think saying leave it off the page is a really good piece of advice.

421
00:47:55,380 --> 00:47:57,000
I often tell others if they're stuck,

422
00:47:57,210 --> 00:48:03,750
or if they are overloading the manuscript with too much exposition to put that energy into a world building document,

423
00:48:04,350 --> 00:48:07,980
because this is incredibly useful for copy editors and editors later.

424
00:48:08,310 --> 00:48:12,660
Um, and it can be a really useful tool in terms of getting over blocks as well.

425
00:48:12,930 --> 00:48:20,009
If you're finding it really difficult to sit down and write that day, then do write how banking system works and divide you know,

426
00:48:20,010 --> 00:48:27,780
what the fashions are and how they've changed in the last decade since, you know, the last one dropped or whatever it is.

427
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:33,180
Um, I think that can be a really productive way of moving forward with your writing and leaving it off the page,

428
00:48:33,180 --> 00:48:41,079
but having it that as a reference if you need it, or if an editor needs to. Thank you all.

429
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:46,049
Fantastic advice. Uh, we're going to have time shortly for questions from the audience.

430
00:48:46,050 --> 00:48:50,500
So I'm just going to give you a moment to think about what questions you might have.

431
00:48:50,500 --> 00:49:01,510
And I have one final one for you guys, which is really looking at fantasy fiction as a whole and asking why you think it has such lasting power

432
00:49:02,260 --> 00:49:08,230
and what it is these stories say about life and human experience that has given it this kind of longevity.

433
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:17,380
I think we've talked a bit about the fluidity of fantasy as a genre, but also the changing relationship with, uh, scholarship, for example.

434
00:49:17,650 --> 00:49:21,540
It's it's going to be around for a long time, and it's certainly alive and kicking today.

435
00:49:21,550 --> 00:49:28,180
So that sort of persistence that it has and what it's doing for us, I'd love to hear a little bit about what you think about that.

436
00:49:29,950 --> 00:49:35,590
I'll let you guys go first. Okay.

437
00:49:35,770 --> 00:49:39,460
I'm so sorry. Was that what we think? Where we think it's going? Yeah.

438
00:49:39,490 --> 00:49:42,819
Why? You think it was this last impulse? Yeah. Um.

439
00:49:42,820 --> 00:49:53,470
I think fantasy has this amazing ability to capture something about the here and now and to isolate an idea or perspective, um,

440
00:49:54,220 --> 00:49:58,600
and gives the author the opportunity to kind of deliver it with a with a cluster of, uh,

441
00:49:58,900 --> 00:50:06,310
crystalline clarity, um, while also sugaring that pill with adventure and hoards of gold.

442
00:50:06,730 --> 00:50:11,440
Um, I think it's the perfect balance, joy and interrogation.

443
00:50:11,830 --> 00:50:17,470
Um, and I don't think we've ever needed that more than we need both those things now.

444
00:50:18,010 --> 00:50:21,700
Um, so I think. Yeah. Escape and questioning.

445
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:32,070
Um. I was thinking about this and thinking about again, thinking about children's books specifically.

446
00:50:32,820 --> 00:50:42,750
Um. Um, fantasy has been a hugely important part of children's books as a, as an area of publishing since the very beginning.

447
00:50:42,990 --> 00:50:49,470
If you ignore sort of really obvious morality stories and instructive stories, um, and.

448
00:50:50,920 --> 00:51:01,540
It. It does evolve over time. But I think, you know, if you look back, think about in Nesbit, think about Alan Garner, Susan Cooper.

449
00:51:03,410 --> 00:51:07,850
Think about Harry Potter. Think about Katherine Rundell.

450
00:51:07,850 --> 00:51:11,870
The books we're reading now, consistently.

451
00:51:11,900 --> 00:51:22,550
Fantasy is a tool. It gives children a world that actually empowers them and gives them agency that they don't have in their real lives.

452
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:29,509
Um, and it gives them it takes them seriously as moral entities.

453
00:51:29,510 --> 00:51:34,130
And you see that in Catherine Rendell's newest book, most powerfully,

454
00:51:34,790 --> 00:51:43,040
where there's a girl who sees a profound injustice being perpetrated and realises that she has to do something about it.

455
00:51:43,580 --> 00:51:51,559
Um, and I think that's an incredibly important message for children, um, particularly in the world that they live in,

456
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:58,070
where they are fed lies and untruths, where they're trying to navigate.

457
00:52:00,250 --> 00:52:03,430
Adults they can trust and adults they can't.

458
00:52:03,910 --> 00:52:12,130
Um. And fantasy consistently has engaged with these subjects in a way that's really powerful and takes children seriously.

459
00:52:12,340 --> 00:52:16,240
So I think that's why it's such an enduring form for children.

460
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:23,130
Um, I think it was Tolkien that said fantasy is a human right.

461
00:52:23,550 --> 00:52:30,540
Um, and I think when I think of that quote, I think of the fact that when you fantasy, very broadly speaking,

462
00:52:31,020 --> 00:52:37,440
is on a global scale, you'll get writers who are creating worlds, they're creating religions, they're creating reality.

463
00:52:37,470 --> 00:52:43,260
How matter works within that reality. And so that that they're they're building worlds and they're creating walls,

464
00:52:43,260 --> 00:52:50,669
but they're also mapping and showing us how the world can be otherwise and how it can be changed and how oppressive regimes,

465
00:52:50,670 --> 00:52:52,800
for example, can be completely destroyed.

466
00:52:53,340 --> 00:53:02,760
Um, thinking like looking at, um, RF Collins Babel, for example, we were talking earlier, she disables his empire in the in the space of her book.

467
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:07,380
And I think what other than a speculative mode, can you do something like that?

468
00:53:07,770 --> 00:53:11,759
Um, so I think it's, it's because it's global, because the stakes are higher,

469
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:15,390
because the worlds are always in peril, or the country or the way of life is always in parallel.

470
00:53:16,110 --> 00:53:22,620
There's this ability to completely rip up the rulebook and do something different and show how it can be,

471
00:53:22,860 --> 00:53:27,059
how the world can be otherwise, while still very much paying homage to the world the way it is.

472
00:53:27,060 --> 00:53:34,850
So for me, that's why I think fantasy constantly, um, in people's in, in much it's in people's imagination.

473
00:53:34,870 --> 00:53:38,489
It's what's so popular. I think it's the fact that it's a human right.

474
00:53:38,490 --> 00:53:41,790
And world building is is important,

475
00:53:41,790 --> 00:53:49,020
and it can just change the way we think of things and maybe give us a roadmap for how we might change things in the future.

476
00:53:51,190 --> 00:53:54,879
Thank you. I don't think I've ever felt quite so excited about fantasy itself.

477
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:56,860
States. Descriptions. Wonderful.

478
00:53:57,130 --> 00:54:05,350
I'm gonna ask you one last question before we turn to audience questions, which is possibly the most difficult and possibly the most important.

479
00:54:05,620 --> 00:54:12,460
Which is do you have any predictions? And are you anticipating any particular challenges or excitements?

480
00:54:12,820 --> 00:54:19,070
Uh, ahead. Uh, just in terms of, like, academia and what I'm seeing.

481
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:22,230
Um, as I said, uh, what the fancy text looks like.

482
00:54:22,500 --> 00:54:30,530
Um, exploring things like that. Um, digging into people whose work has kind of been marginalised for now.

483
00:54:30,540 --> 00:54:38,459
I think that is really exciting for me. Um, and yeah, just looking at the possibilities of fantasy and as you mentioned earlier in the bio, um,

484
00:54:38,460 --> 00:54:43,980
we've got a book that's exploring how fantasy writers and sci fi writers are working with governments,

485
00:54:43,980 --> 00:54:47,010
um, and the military to kind of scenario model disasters.

486
00:54:47,010 --> 00:54:54,149
Because when you're in fantasy, in these very imaginative genres, you're thinking about how the world could be different.

487
00:54:54,150 --> 00:54:57,900
If you change that one thing, what would result in that? So it's a cause and effect mentality.

488
00:54:58,350 --> 00:55:03,089
Um, and these fancy and sci fi writers, we're working with people who are actually able to think about,

489
00:55:03,090 --> 00:55:08,400
well, if this went wrong in this, as in, in our community here, how do we deal with it?

490
00:55:08,610 --> 00:55:11,729
It's worst case scenario modelling and how you deal with it.

491
00:55:11,730 --> 00:55:13,890
So I think fantasy has the ability,

492
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:22,740
just that really imaginative way of thinking has the ability to give you give back to the world and change how it how it can maybe move forward.

493
00:55:25,980 --> 00:55:35,580
So distracted by that. Yeah. Um, I'm not sure if you are all aware of the really,

494
00:55:35,580 --> 00:55:41,819
really serious challenges that we face in the kind of reading for pleasure space for children at the moment.

495
00:55:41,820 --> 00:55:49,290
It's very, very significant. Less than a third of children now report reading for pleasure on a regular basis.

496
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:54,060
Over 800 libraries have closed over the past. I think it's ten years.

497
00:55:54,510 --> 00:56:01,070
Um. What else? 1 in 7 primary schools doesn't have a dedicated library or library space.

498
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:08,880
And there is a real challenge for us as a culture around the value we place on books and reading.

499
00:56:09,180 --> 00:56:14,880
And alongside that, I think the value we place on childhood itself.

500
00:56:15,660 --> 00:56:21,060
Um, as publishers, we are all working incredibly hard to address that.

501
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:28,020
Um, and one of the things, one of the things we've seen as a sort of really significant decline in immersive reading.

502
00:56:28,020 --> 00:56:35,580
So kids, uh, reading very similar books when they're 11, 12 as they were when they were seven, eight.

503
00:56:35,970 --> 00:56:42,270
Um, there was a in that a really brilliant shift towards graphic novels and illustrated books.

504
00:56:42,510 --> 00:56:47,350
And I think you'll see that developing more in the children's fantasy space.

505
00:56:47,350 --> 00:56:56,760
There's going to be a lot more illustration and lots of shorter books to try and adapt what we publish to that challenged immersive attention span.

506
00:56:57,210 --> 00:57:02,130
Um, and obviously that challenge is coming some from some very obvious other places,

507
00:57:02,130 --> 00:57:06,660
the digital culture that is absorbing our children's eyeballs and brains.

508
00:57:07,050 --> 00:57:11,070
Um, so I think we are reacting as fast as we can to that.

509
00:57:11,070 --> 00:57:18,210
And you will see short, snappy fantasy in a way that hasn't been the trend over the past sort of ten, 15 years.

510
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:24,809
Um, I think that there is a lot of focus as well on action in story, um,

511
00:57:24,810 --> 00:57:29,580
sort of very immediate narrative and keeping the pages turning as quickly as possible.

512
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:34,590
So that's definitely a trend. And, and things we are actively looking for.

513
00:57:34,590 --> 00:57:37,170
It's really interesting that there has been a,

514
00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:44,430
a brilliant sort of increase in representation in the first year of voices, particularly in young adult.

515
00:57:44,790 --> 00:57:48,569
It is really sort of slower coming through in middle grade.

516
00:57:48,570 --> 00:57:54,510
I would love to see. Thinking back to the conversation with Sarah Mobile earlier,

517
00:57:54,840 --> 00:58:03,629
I would love to see more children's publishing coming from diverse voices and exploring imaginative worlds

518
00:58:03,630 --> 00:58:09,720
that are beyond that traditional sort of Judeo-Christian narrative structure that we all know so well.

519
00:58:10,050 --> 00:58:14,880
Um, so lots of change to come and lots of work for all of us to do,

520
00:58:15,030 --> 00:58:22,470
to make sure that reading and stories remain essential to, uh, our kind of culture and our childhood.

521
00:58:26,020 --> 00:58:33,700
Um, I'll speak commercially because I am really happy not to know what's coming in terms of creative and artistic expression and fantasy.

522
00:58:34,060 --> 00:58:39,670
Um, but I think commercially, uh, looking at, uh, romance to see and, um,

523
00:58:40,180 --> 00:58:45,100
the splintering and breaking apart of genres as kind of readers crossover from one space to another.

524
00:58:45,370 --> 00:58:52,260
I see more portmanteau as more of our future. Um, I see, uh, the mixing of different genres, genres.

525
00:58:52,360 --> 00:59:02,620
It's now been over 12 years since George R.R. Martin laid siege to HBO and made, um, you know, fantasy feel like quite a mainstream experience.

526
00:59:02,980 --> 00:59:08,800
Um, even one kind of on a par with big sports events that you throw watch together.

527
00:59:09,190 --> 00:59:16,690
Um, I think before that, for some years it felt a little bit out in the deserts, um, in quite a journey way.

528
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:22,540
Um, uh, it felt like something that belonged to people on the outskirts of mainstream culture.

529
00:59:22,780 --> 00:59:23,739
So that's that's ending.

530
00:59:23,740 --> 00:59:29,139
And as it moves closer to the mainstream, I do think that we'll see people kind of question and come at it from different perspectives.

531
00:59:29,140 --> 00:59:35,830
And I think we'll see, um, the merging of different genres and therefore maybe the breaking apart of what we think of as fantasy,

532
00:59:35,830 --> 00:59:41,080
as a monolith with the, uh, Tolkien or Mount Fuji, Tolkien as Mount Fuji through Canon Fuji.

533
00:59:41,500 --> 00:59:49,420
Um, so I see a real blend of blending in the future, probably, um, commercially speaking.

534
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:51,339
And I get really excited by that,

535
00:59:51,340 --> 00:59:59,920
because I think from the meeting of all these different spaces and disciplines will come something quite new and hopefully new voices and.

536
01:00:05,230 --> 01:00:11,210
Thank you all so much. We now have about 15 minutes, uh, for audience questions.

537
01:00:11,230 --> 01:00:14,410
Are we having a roving mike? Fantastic.

538
01:00:14,590 --> 01:00:17,710
So please stick your hand in here and someone will come with the mic.

539
01:00:18,010 --> 01:00:21,700
Uh, we could start here. Hi.

540
01:00:21,700 --> 01:00:24,400
Um, thank you so much. It was a fantastic panel.

541
01:00:24,670 --> 01:00:32,700
Um, so in my day job, I'm a magazine editor, and I know that whenever I get an article across my desk, it often comes out completely new.

542
01:00:32,710 --> 01:00:38,470
Probably about 1000 words shorter. So I was just wondering, um, when you guys have books come onto your table?

543
01:00:38,860 --> 01:00:44,050
Um, how much do they transform, and in which ways do you kind of see them transform during the editing process?

544
01:00:46,030 --> 01:00:50,450
Probably going to be a very different process and very difficult. Thank you.

545
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:53,950
So different for every book. I'm sorry. That's not good. Um.

546
01:00:54,340 --> 01:01:00,819
Good answer. Um, uh, often I get, uh, asked by prospective authors, you know,

547
01:01:00,820 --> 01:01:05,920
does a book have to be a certain length to which I'm able to say no, I think Rebecca might have a different answer.

548
01:01:06,250 --> 01:01:15,930
Um, for kids books, but I think, um, classically, what happens is that we bring out the main characters story a little more clearly.

549
01:01:15,940 --> 01:01:19,780
I think it's a it's a tendency that these things live in the author's mind.

550
01:01:20,260 --> 01:01:25,570
Um, and some stuff that maybe seems obvious to the author needs to be further onto the page.

551
01:01:25,900 --> 01:01:29,320
Um, I think again, that's true of the world building.

552
01:01:29,350 --> 01:01:35,890
I think that's true very rarely when I ask the question of why does something occur in a world because it's not on the page.

553
01:01:35,950 --> 01:01:39,460
Does the author not have an answer ready for it?

554
01:01:39,580 --> 01:01:46,300
It's all in their head. So I think generally the process of editing is a bringing down from the author's mind and a

555
01:01:46,330 --> 01:01:50,650
meeting on the page that is a little bit closer to where the reader will experience the story.

556
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:56,740
Um, but it's rarely like as simple as cutting words, um, or adding them.

557
01:01:59,420 --> 01:02:06,050
Yeah, I think, as Vicky says, editing is infinitely variable because it's never the same from author to author.

558
01:02:06,980 --> 01:02:18,540
And as an editor, you often are quite able to, um, to evolve your style slightly depending who you're working with.

559
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:27,670
So, uh, um, and it can take time to go that relationship and it may evolve over a long working relationship too.

560
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:31,309
So it may be at the beginning that you feel like you really, as an editor,

561
01:02:31,310 --> 01:02:39,020
need to show that you've done your homework and you'll write like a 20 page editorial letter and sort of send a manuscript which has many,

562
01:02:39,020 --> 01:02:48,620
many notes to show that you really have been paying attention to this book and exactly sort of the positives as well as the, the difficult questions.

563
01:02:49,010 --> 01:02:59,260
Um, and that can evolve to after a first draft, you have a conversation and then the author goes off to rewrite on the basis of a conversation.

564
01:02:59,270 --> 01:03:03,410
It really changes. And that trust is essential.

565
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:07,040
And a book can evolve very significantly.

566
01:03:07,250 --> 01:03:13,399
It's more likely that a massive evolution will happen on the second or third book on a contract,

567
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:21,740
because generally the first book on the contract is the one that you've read to acquire it, and you will still expect to do some editorial work on it.

568
01:03:22,340 --> 01:03:28,940
You will still, and sometimes you'll want to feed that in as part of the negotiation as well,

569
01:03:28,940 --> 01:03:35,000
because you don't want the author to to land thinking, oh gosh, I'm a genius.

570
01:03:35,010 --> 01:03:40,550
It's done. You need to know that that the openness to that work is there.

571
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:44,450
But books do change a lot in the editorial process.

572
01:03:44,870 --> 01:03:52,630
And that's where also the questions of luck, the serendipity of your book landing on the right desk at the right time.

573
01:03:52,730 --> 01:03:56,060
It may it that that book is making a connection with the editor.

574
01:03:56,390 --> 01:03:59,070
That means they want to engage with and they're excited by it.

575
01:03:59,090 --> 01:04:04,580
It's not competing with something very similar or has a similar theme that they already have on their list.

576
01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:10,940
There's so many. There's so much kind of good fortune that is essential to the publishing process, to.

577
01:04:13,010 --> 01:04:15,799
I don't think my side of things is that pertinent here,

578
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:22,520
but the I think one thing about and publishing is that you get to send out your audience before you put the book out, because you get peer review.

579
01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:30,739
You get the insight of people like series editors. Um, so in that regard, things change, but only really only for the better,

580
01:04:30,740 --> 01:04:35,600
because you get a wonderful amount of insight into one, um, on one particular work.

581
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:40,310
But I think it's more kind of the fiction side of things that was being talked about better, but that's fine.

582
01:04:41,060 --> 01:04:47,060
Thank you. Um, I'm really curious about how much you're able to be very deliberate versus responsive in what you publish.

583
01:04:47,060 --> 01:04:50,940
So I imagine you will have like, ideas of what you want to put out into the world.

584
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:53,550
Do you then sort of need to wait for that to cross your desk?

585
01:04:53,570 --> 01:04:59,200
You able to go to authors and be like the dude who went to the Gwen and was like, can I can you write a young adult series for me, please?

586
01:04:59,210 --> 01:05:02,930
Now we have to say, what does that process look like in terms of creating something?

587
01:05:03,230 --> 01:05:08,299
Oh, it's a bit of both. I do sometimes I'm not averse to stalking of an author saying like, can I have this?

588
01:05:08,300 --> 01:05:17,900
Can have this. I think you do a great job of this. Um, but often it is about identifying gaps in the market and then lying in wait, frustratingly.

589
01:05:18,290 --> 01:05:22,370
Um, sometimes you're able to do, um, IP intellectual property.

590
01:05:22,670 --> 01:05:28,130
Um, it's not so much something I've done, um, much of in the past, uh, which would be kind of,

591
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:32,110
uh, setting out and finding an author and then setting them the task.

592
01:05:32,150 --> 01:05:38,600
Right. Something sort of to spec. So that does exist. And there are some very successful publishers, particularly for ebooks who work on that model.

593
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:46,070
Um, but I think in the more traditional vein, it is a case of trying to anticipate where the market goes and then sort of

594
01:05:46,190 --> 01:05:49,999
lying in wait for a book that probably won't be exactly what you're looking for,

595
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:59,480
but will be hopefully just what you need. Um, so I think it's a little bit of that with just a nice bit of, uh, poaching and stalking as well.

596
01:05:59,810 --> 01:06:03,380
Um, sprinkled in there commercially, um, aggressive behaviours to.

597
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:13,420
Yeah, I think it works both ways. And in children's publishing, um,

598
01:06:14,230 --> 01:06:22,840
we are often thinking really hard about audiences and who is and isn't being served by something that's successful at the moment.

599
01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:29,770
So you might see something that's really brilliant and successful for that.

600
01:06:29,770 --> 01:06:34,900
That's predominantly for a girl audience. And you'd be like, where's the one for boys?

601
01:06:35,260 --> 01:06:45,370
And you might therefore go away and try and sort of find the right person to write that for you and approach them.

602
01:06:45,370 --> 01:06:49,870
Or you might even try to develop a concept that you go to an author with.

603
01:06:50,710 --> 01:06:57,460
Any author approaching with something like that needs to have the experience, and you need to know that they can deliver it.

604
01:06:57,910 --> 01:07:10,090
Um, and there have been points in my career, a long, long time ago where we unashamedly, unashamedly did what we called parallel concept development.

605
01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:18,640
Um, so, for example, when Vicky mentioned him earlier, the great Brian Jakes Red Wolf series was at its peak.

606
01:07:18,940 --> 01:07:32,139
We were like, we need a mice in skirts, um, and, and develop something with an author that was deliberately shorter and younger but was talking mice.

607
01:07:32,140 --> 01:07:40,390
There wasn't an abbey, there were some Chris and I think I think you're kind of spotting a gap in the market, something that isn't being served.

608
01:07:40,630 --> 01:07:45,340
But there's something already that works, and I think there is less of that.

609
01:07:45,580 --> 01:07:49,150
We're much more scrupulous now, perhaps, than we once were.

610
01:07:49,660 --> 01:07:58,600
Um, and I think another thing that has changed in children's publishing is the role of the author themselves as promoters of their work.

611
01:07:59,050 --> 01:08:07,870
And so also 20, 25 years ago, there were quite a lot of packages who would come up with a concept only IP,

612
01:08:08,260 --> 01:08:12,970
um, have a have a team of authors writing for them,

613
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:20,540
and it would be published under a made up author name, and a lot of series would be incredibly successful in that space.

614
01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:28,570
There's much less of that kind of thing now, partly because we ask our authors to be in schools a lot of the time,

615
01:08:28,570 --> 01:08:35,290
to be standing up in front of groups of children and being advocates for their books and exciting readers about them,

616
01:08:35,620 --> 01:08:40,180
and that has unexpectedly become part of the job.

617
01:08:40,660 --> 01:08:46,569
Um, so I think that is also something to bear in mind when thinking about children's publishing.

618
01:08:46,570 --> 01:08:48,879
It's not like an absolutely essential thing,

619
01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:55,750
but it is really helpful if you are able to sort of talk about your books eloquently and excitingly to young audiences.

620
01:08:57,110 --> 01:09:00,290
Sorry. I'm gonna think there's an exciting, um, underlying thing there.

621
01:09:00,420 --> 01:09:02,990
That's true in trade publishing as well, that the authors role.

622
01:09:03,110 --> 01:09:07,189
You know, that we often ask me to step forward in a way that we that wasn't as crucial.

623
01:09:07,190 --> 01:09:11,059
And maybe in a time before social media and a time before, you know, multi stock tools.

624
01:09:11,060 --> 01:09:24,710
Sorry, Samantha. It's here in the room. Um, but I wonder if as I and as, um, author authorship sort of starts to seemingly recede, um, in importance,

625
01:09:25,280 --> 01:09:31,000
the parallel of that is kind of the clear importance that authors have in the minds of readers.

626
01:09:31,010 --> 01:09:34,370
You only have to look at signing queues to see the truth of that.

627
01:09:34,700 --> 01:09:39,560
Um, and that's something that maybe haven't those those two things haven't maybe been put together in my mind before,

628
01:09:39,860 --> 01:09:45,030
um, but felt very present in you speaking. That was that an epiphany moment?

629
01:09:45,050 --> 01:09:50,629
Yeah. Financing. Um, I can aggressively go after an idea that I want.

630
01:09:50,630 --> 01:09:56,750
Which is the great thing about academic publishing. You can see where are the courses, what are the what are the ideas and trends coalescing around?

631
01:09:57,200 --> 01:10:03,470
Um, so you can be and thankfully, academics have their interests and research fields on their bios, on their university website.

632
01:10:03,480 --> 01:10:06,709
So I can literally trawl the internet and find people to, to write things.

633
01:10:06,710 --> 01:10:13,490
And, um, so for me, I was really excited when I came up with the brainwave that, um, because brains has a big,

634
01:10:13,490 --> 01:10:18,230
big series called Cultural Histories, which basically traces a topic across the whole of human history.

635
01:10:18,620 --> 01:10:26,029
Um, and I realised there wasn't anything on monsters, so I basically went after people who were kind of researching and writing about monsters,

636
01:10:26,030 --> 01:10:31,879
which there are a lot of went down a rabbit hole into cryptozoology and looking at like, did Bigfoot exist?

637
01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:38,630
But yeah, so I can very much aggressively go after an idea and then find someone to pair up with that.

638
01:10:38,990 --> 01:10:42,709
And I normally get to say, you're the expert, I want to work on this.

639
01:10:42,710 --> 01:10:46,590
How would you do it? And I kind of said it like it's a fun thing for them to work out.

640
01:10:46,640 --> 01:10:49,760
So very, very different from you. I don't have to be as patient.

641
01:10:49,760 --> 01:10:55,310
I can very much be women. Yes. I need to be very alert to trends, um, and see who's doing what.

642
01:10:55,320 --> 01:10:59,450
And so I comb, like, journals and things like that to see what the what.

643
01:10:59,450 --> 01:11:04,189
The new trends are so very different I think in that. Okay. Thank you.

644
01:11:04,190 --> 01:11:07,309
I think we can never have too many books about talking mice.

645
01:11:07,310 --> 01:11:12,050
So Lucy might want to commission someone. Yeah. Uh, we have time for another question.

646
01:11:12,320 --> 01:11:15,469
Um, so we actually have a lot of online questions.

647
01:11:15,470 --> 01:11:21,800
So I try to condense several topics and I guess like the why a lot of questions,

648
01:11:22,310 --> 01:11:26,750
very specific questions about how to proceed if people want to publish has

649
01:11:26,750 --> 01:11:31,070
been looking for what are the trends which are especially attractive nowadays.

650
01:11:31,610 --> 01:11:39,740
But I guess that also taps into another series of questions where people ask about the broader landscape of fantasy writing,

651
01:11:39,890 --> 01:11:42,560
which is not reflected by bestselling books,

652
01:11:42,950 --> 01:11:52,490
and sort of also your ideas on kind of why certain trends are so irresistible and which trends are in the media to turn down for a book?

653
01:11:53,030 --> 01:11:57,740
Um, I don't know if it makes sense, but, uh, that's a lot to encapsulate.

654
01:11:57,950 --> 01:12:05,620
And one question so immediate knows obviously there.

655
01:12:06,590 --> 01:12:10,440
There are things that would be very challenging to publish in a children's book.

656
01:12:10,460 --> 01:12:16,790
Um, so you have to be sure that the the content is appropriate for the audience.

657
01:12:17,180 --> 01:12:25,730
Um, we very straightforwardly don't put much swearing in books for 8 to 11 year olds.

658
01:12:26,120 --> 01:12:29,750
Um, we're quite cautious about really extreme violence.

659
01:12:30,110 --> 01:12:34,610
Um, so that's that's an immediate.

660
01:12:34,610 --> 01:12:44,780
No, I think also someone who it there's a fine line because I understand that you want to show that you have researched the market,

661
01:12:45,500 --> 01:12:50,440
but telling me exactly where your book sits in the market actually isn't your job.

662
01:12:50,450 --> 01:12:53,600
That's my job to work out. Um.

663
01:12:54,900 --> 01:13:00,450
And it doesn't mean I won't read it. But it's it's a little irritant.

664
01:13:00,990 --> 01:13:05,940
Um, I, I think I think it is interesting as well.

665
01:13:05,940 --> 01:13:10,729
That sort of. Yes, there are the best sellers.

666
01:13:10,730 --> 01:13:14,670
And as you say, there are an awful lot of books, books that are published.

667
01:13:14,690 --> 01:13:22,969
So as we said earlier, we have reached that point on their journey, but that don't sell very well.

668
01:13:22,970 --> 01:13:27,110
And that's really difficult for everybody. But they might find their audience at some point.

669
01:13:27,110 --> 01:13:35,030
When we commit to a book, we're committing to the life of the book, and it will have many formats and hopefully a long life.

670
01:13:35,480 --> 01:13:39,670
Um. But.

671
01:13:41,730 --> 01:13:44,970
I, I don't know, I mean, the process of getting published.

672
01:13:45,120 --> 01:13:47,940
I would say it is invaluable to you.

673
01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:55,830
Nigel may not appreciate me saying that, but to have an agent who is in your corner and representing your interests and your agent will,

674
01:13:56,280 --> 01:14:00,360
if you pick the right person, they will give you straight direct advice.

675
01:14:00,660 --> 01:14:08,070
They will be with you for your career, and they are there to work for you and to serve your interests.

676
01:14:08,380 --> 01:14:10,840
A publisher we are brilliant, right?

677
01:14:10,860 --> 01:14:18,660
We're great at what we do, but we're there to make sure we want to have long creative relationships with our authors.

678
01:14:19,440 --> 01:14:24,389
But we also are driven by that commercial imperative, too.

679
01:14:24,390 --> 01:14:30,620
And I can't pretend we're not. We need the books to sell us because that's what makes them commercially viable.

680
01:14:30,630 --> 01:14:39,630
Um, and it's one of the difficult things that we don't maybe talk about very much when we're having these conversations.

681
01:14:39,990 --> 01:14:47,160
It really matters that I and my sales team and my marketing team feel that we can sell your book,

682
01:14:47,160 --> 01:14:50,880
and if we don't feel that and we're not the best publisher for it.

683
01:14:51,660 --> 01:14:54,569
So I think that answer will differ for every publisher,

684
01:14:54,570 --> 01:14:59,399
because every publisher approaches books in their own particular way and has a different approach.

685
01:14:59,400 --> 01:15:03,780
Some publishers and some imprints, some fancy imprints of massive um,

686
01:15:04,140 --> 01:15:08,670
and we'll take many books that fall within the same subgenre and in the same style,

687
01:15:08,670 --> 01:15:16,770
and they will put them out, and they have a dedicated group of readers who buy everything and want to read the same thing over and over again.

688
01:15:17,100 --> 01:15:21,570
Um, I think that's not really the Bloomsbury way, typically.

689
01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:30,870
Um, particularly speaking, my lesson in business, um, it's a case of making sure that every book complements well, competes as well.

690
01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:37,020
Um, so the quickest and easiest turn downs are when something sits very close to something.

691
01:15:37,020 --> 01:15:41,280
I've already decided I'm going to be championing, something I've already committed to and pledged to.

692
01:15:41,700 --> 01:15:50,340
Um, and I think in some ways, those are the best faith notes that I can give, because they aren't necessarily even an indictment on the book itself.

693
01:15:50,580 --> 01:15:55,620
But, uh, testament to the commitment I've already made to the authors that I've already taken on board.

694
01:15:56,040 --> 01:16:01,950
Um, I think trends come and go. Uh, there's a lot of noise about what I see, and quite rightly so, because the numbers are really big.

695
01:16:02,250 --> 01:16:06,149
Um, so that kind of erotically emotionally driven, um, fantasy.

696
01:16:06,150 --> 01:16:10,620
But if you look at number, there's a number one to number ten.

697
01:16:10,720 --> 01:16:15,060
If you look at number 52, number 70, you'll find that from the in Martin.

698
01:16:15,420 --> 01:16:19,440
Um, and one of the ones that people, you know, people say, oh, where's epic fantasy?

699
01:16:19,440 --> 01:16:25,020
But you'll find, uh, the darks and the epics and the highs still churning away at that level.

700
01:16:25,290 --> 01:16:29,610
Um, I think there's a lot of room for things that don't fall into those two camps.

701
01:16:29,970 --> 01:16:33,230
Um, so I suppose in terms of trends. Yeah.

702
01:16:33,240 --> 01:16:36,540
Just to echo what's been said before, write your own story.

703
01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:41,130
Um, you're the one that's gonna have to live with it for many, many years. Um, but you must like it.

704
01:16:41,580 --> 01:16:47,220
Um. And, uh. Yeah. Thank you so much for your talk.

705
01:16:47,460 --> 01:16:52,320
Um, my questions kind of has been touched on a little bit by Nigel.

706
01:16:52,650 --> 01:16:57,330
With the rise of social media and online platforms, authors now have a direct connection to their readers.

707
01:16:57,840 --> 01:17:02,819
Um, how is this affected? Bloomsbury approach to marketing, discovering new content and building over brands?

708
01:17:02,820 --> 01:17:07,530
Because, as mentioned by Nigel, has a big influence on with TikTok.

709
01:17:07,830 --> 01:17:11,160
Um, those platforms. Thank you. Did you?

710
01:17:11,850 --> 01:17:14,970
Yes. How how has social media affected our brand building?

711
01:17:15,240 --> 01:17:20,610
Yes, it it's like building up the awful brands. How are you finding new talon's finding under represented voices?

712
01:17:21,030 --> 01:17:25,340
Well, it's been the most amazing creative tool for us, actually.

713
01:17:25,350 --> 01:17:25,589
I mean,

714
01:17:25,590 --> 01:17:35,909
we have a fantastic social media team who market our books completely brilliantly and who seem to pour ever more extraordinary creativity into it.

715
01:17:35,910 --> 01:17:38,910
So we have a Bloomsbury creative circle, which is not authors.

716
01:17:39,180 --> 01:17:45,839
It's all sort of big readers and influencers, and we do a lot of events with them,

717
01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:52,030
and they work with us to promote our books, and that's a really amazing thing.

718
01:17:52,050 --> 01:17:57,030
It's also brilliant to see the organic viral trends that build that.

719
01:17:57,030 --> 01:18:00,360
However hard you try as a publisher to influence, you actually can't.

720
01:18:00,840 --> 01:18:06,899
Um, I know Nigel mentioned earlier the sort of huge success of Madeline Miller from our adult list,

721
01:18:06,900 --> 01:18:12,180
which was very she'd always been a highly regarded and really wonderful and very strong selling author,

722
01:18:12,180 --> 01:18:19,080
but this kind of extraordinary rise in her sales that happened very organically through Booktok.

723
01:18:19,500 --> 01:18:25,320
Um, and Sarah J. Moss, too. So it's an amazing tool and a wonderful opportunity.

724
01:18:25,740 --> 01:18:32,910
Um, at the same time, if it's not as an author, if it's not your natural space, don't go there.

725
01:18:33,360 --> 01:18:36,360
Um, because you need to be willing to commit to it.

726
01:18:36,690 --> 01:18:40,919
You need to be willing to take the [INAUDIBLE] because there will be some coming back.

727
01:18:40,920 --> 01:18:45,469
It's not. Not always friendly. Um, so. So approach it carefully.

728
01:18:45,470 --> 01:18:52,610
But if it if it feels comfortable to you, if you want to commit to it, you will find a community there that will support you.

729
01:18:52,610 --> 01:19:04,550
And that's a brilliant thing. Um, and in terms of finding authors, um, through social media, we haven't done so much of that on the children's side.

730
01:19:04,970 --> 01:19:10,640
Um, I mean, Nigel mentioned that Sarah Jo Marks, at the beginning of her career,

731
01:19:10,670 --> 01:19:16,850
sort of self-published on a digital platform early versions of what became her Throne of Glass books.

732
01:19:17,360 --> 01:19:20,540
Um, but that's not quite the same.

733
01:19:20,810 --> 01:19:24,170
Um, I'm not sure whether you've found authors that way.

734
01:19:25,660 --> 01:19:31,710
Um, yeah. I think firstly, any publisher tells you that you need to be on social medias doing it.

735
01:19:31,750 --> 01:19:36,910
And so that's that. I think, as Rebecca says, if it's not your strengths, like let the writing lead the way.

736
01:19:37,270 --> 01:19:40,580
Um, I've not found authors that way.

737
01:19:40,600 --> 01:19:45,370
I think authors tend to find readers that way, not necessarily publishers.

738
01:19:45,790 --> 01:19:55,540
Um, I do love to see the meandering ways in which, particularly TikTok, um, manages to evade all commercial, uh, wrangling.

739
01:19:55,960 --> 01:19:58,500
Um, and I think that's magic. Genuinely.

740
01:19:58,630 --> 01:20:05,650
There's a genuine conversation between people, and, um, I don't know how to act too much, but it can feel quite democratising as well.

741
01:20:06,070 --> 01:20:12,940
Um, I think it can go both ways, though, and I think it's interesting that what these algorithms exclude as well.

742
01:20:13,330 --> 01:20:18,370
Um, and I think we should be really mindful of that, um, because they're not benign and they're not neutral.

743
01:20:18,850 --> 01:20:22,390
Um, and they are self-perpetuating too.

744
01:20:22,720 --> 01:20:27,340
Um, and what is visible and what isn't visible is often genuinely being controlled.

745
01:20:27,730 --> 01:20:34,840
Um, so all of which is to say, uh, I think just to leap off on the search point,

746
01:20:34,840 --> 01:20:39,730
obviously issues and originator of the romance genre, but also a really fun one,

747
01:20:39,770 --> 01:20:47,920
a current trend that I've been seeing a lot of and that is dominating the chance of authors who write in self-published spaces and then seek,

748
01:20:48,250 --> 01:20:56,110
uh, representation of it, often from me. Um, and then, uh, that book is then packaged and sent out to publishers,

749
01:20:56,380 --> 01:21:00,700
particularly publishers who don't have a long history of publishing in the fantasy space and who are

750
01:21:00,700 --> 01:21:07,000
emboldened by that take following or by that momentum that the self publishing machine can sometimes bring?

751
01:21:07,390 --> 01:21:13,780
Um, that's not so much what we've done a lot of, at least maybe not, because it's not sometimes really quite fiction.

752
01:21:14,080 --> 01:21:18,010
Um, but speaking personally because it doesn't leave much room for an editor.

753
01:21:18,220 --> 01:21:22,360
So if in a case of touching it as little as possible and letting it get out there as quickly as possible.

754
01:21:22,750 --> 01:21:24,940
Um, but that's an interesting trend that I have seen.

755
01:21:25,180 --> 01:21:30,580
And again, there is a democratising element of that as well, because it does cut out that traditional,

756
01:21:30,880 --> 01:21:37,420
uh, publishing process of querying and waiting and, and that slightly frustrating dance between parties.

757
01:21:37,780 --> 01:21:39,970
Um, so I'm interested to see where that goes.

758
01:21:40,270 --> 01:21:48,550
Um, and I think a lot of that is driven by by social media, social media and academics sometimes not that well, that's probably makes you.

759
01:21:49,930 --> 01:21:53,620
Okay. Well, thank you all. Thank you for questions. I'm afraid we are out of time.

760
01:21:53,860 --> 01:21:59,589
So let's just say a very big thank you to Vicki Richmond, Tess Rebecca McNerney, and Lucy Strong.

761
01:21:59,590 --> 01:22:01,420
Thanks so much for your insights today.