1 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:10,080 [Auto-generated transcript. Edits may have been applied for clarity.] Hi. Hi. Um, so Samantha's already been introduced by Nigel's, but, um, I very rarely get to, 2 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:15,410 uh, go on about how brilliant she is in front of her and really, really embarrass her. 3 00:00:15,420 --> 00:00:17,940 So you'll forgive me if I cover some of the same points? 4 00:00:18,240 --> 00:00:24,540 Um, Samantha Shannon is the million copy bestselling author of the bonus season series and the Roots of Chaos Cycle. 5 00:00:25,050 --> 00:00:29,129 Samantha has burned her way to the top of the charts many, many times. 6 00:00:29,130 --> 00:00:37,740 Twice in this year alone with her, uh, fifth book in the bonus season titled The Dark Mirror, reaching number three in the charts in February. 7 00:00:38,070 --> 00:00:42,420 And with her last book, um, The Most Beautiful Among the Burning Flowers, 8 00:00:42,630 --> 00:00:49,500 getting to number five in the charts just two weeks ago in September is the most competitive month in the publishing calendar. 9 00:00:49,740 --> 00:00:53,580 So that is really such an accolade. To do it twice in a year is a little greedy. 10 00:00:54,060 --> 00:01:03,120 Um, but we won't hold that against you. Samantha's been an author at Bloomsbury for over a decade, and her words have been published in 28 languages. 11 00:01:03,570 --> 00:01:09,479 So, uh, that she's pure magic. She's also here as part of a world renowned UK tour. 12 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:14,100 And as Nigel said, she recently met the Queen. Do you? My first question to you, Samantha, 13 00:01:14,370 --> 00:01:21,810 do you think that writing from the perspective of Queen so many times has prepared you to put to be on even footing when you did meet Camilla? 14 00:01:22,770 --> 00:01:27,989 Um, I don't think anything could have prepared me for meeting the Queen, mostly because I did not expect it to happen. 15 00:01:27,990 --> 00:01:31,920 In fact, we only read myself when I know we were not. That's my house. 16 00:01:33,660 --> 00:01:35,940 I mean, she has a lot of houses, but I don't think that's one of them. 17 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:40,770 Um, no, but we had a feeling that something might be happening when a helicopter flew over. 18 00:01:41,010 --> 00:01:45,160 So subtle. And I was thinking, nobody's going to be arriving by helicopter other than the Queen. 19 00:01:45,180 --> 00:01:52,110 Um, so that that was a fascinating experience. Um, but, yeah, it was quite strange because I do repeatedly go back to monarchs in my work, 20 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,849 and there's a part of me that wanted to interview her about being the Queen. I don't think I will ever be allowed to do that. 21 00:01:56,850 --> 00:02:00,210 But what if I say it's research? Well, they let me. I wondered if you had. 22 00:02:00,570 --> 00:02:03,750 I wondered if you've been like. So what did it feel like to be exceeded? 23 00:02:05,460 --> 00:02:06,060 Yeah, I am. 24 00:02:06,060 --> 00:02:13,870 I am so fascinated by kings and queens, and I think it is interesting that fantasy as a genre has such an intense relationship with monarchy. 25 00:02:13,890 --> 00:02:19,200 You know, it does tend to be that stories are often told from the perspective of kings and queens or lords and ladies, 26 00:02:19,210 --> 00:02:26,550 um, the High Lords, as George RR Martin would say. I think, uh, I mean, I'd love to hear why you think that is. 27 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:33,990 Um, I've always tended to think it's a simplification of the power system and maybe particularly within Western systems, quite an easy way to. 28 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:40,290 Yeah, access power, undermine it. Um, and to explain why some people have it and some people don't. 29 00:02:40,890 --> 00:02:46,320 Yeah. And I think it's also because fantasy has long had a relationship with history. 30 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:51,960 Um, in fact, we have got to a point where fantasy is often accused of being non historically accurate. 31 00:02:52,180 --> 00:02:57,120 Um, I think that was a really I remember when I was, I was watching Game of Thrones. 32 00:02:57,130 --> 00:03:00,030 Um, and I'm sure many of you have also seen Game of Thrones, 33 00:03:00,030 --> 00:03:05,249 but there was a particular moment where, um, one of the main characters was sexually assaulted. 34 00:03:05,250 --> 00:03:11,819 And I remember there were so many people who were angry about this for various reasons, and I think they had a right to be. 35 00:03:11,820 --> 00:03:16,280 But there were so many people, um, who were saying buttons historically accurate. 36 00:03:16,290 --> 00:03:19,470 It's just what happened to women back then? Yeah. 37 00:03:19,590 --> 00:03:23,640 And I was like, when what they were tracking when there were ice zombies. 38 00:03:23,650 --> 00:03:30,000 Yeah. There was this really fascinating thing where people would accuse fantasy of being anachronistic, for example. 39 00:03:30,210 --> 00:03:36,840 And I think that's so interesting. But often the records we have of, you know, important people throughout those times tended to be kings and queens. 40 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:42,239 You didn't often hear the stories of the the peasantry or the ordinary people. 41 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:47,610 So I think that's often why we end up leaning quite heavily on stories about kings and queens, lords and ladies. 42 00:03:47,610 --> 00:03:52,469 But for me, it's often a way to explore, uh, hereditary monarchy I find fascinating, 43 00:03:52,470 --> 00:03:56,610 particularly from the perspective of women like the pressure to give birth to an heir. 44 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,300 And I also write a lot of stories. Um, I write queer fiction. 45 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,469 So what happens if you're a queen who's expected to marry a man in siren? 46 00:04:04,470 --> 00:04:09,060 Er. So I find the questions really interesting. I've already gone off pace. 47 00:04:09,340 --> 00:04:14,850 That's right. No. That's brilliant. Um, so just to bring everyone in the room onto the same level. 48 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:19,649 Um, would you give us a quick potted history of sort of the bone season and roots of Chaos cycle, 49 00:04:19,650 --> 00:04:23,160 and why they differ in what areas of fantasy they kind of operate within? 50 00:04:23,580 --> 00:04:26,580 Sure. Um, so the Bone Season was my debut novel. 51 00:04:26,580 --> 00:04:31,470 Actually wrote it while I was at Oxford. Um, I studied at Saint Anne's and I wrote it in my second year. 52 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:36,540 Um, as such, it is a strange combination of fantasy and dystopia. 53 00:04:36,750 --> 00:04:40,260 Um, so I, you know, I loved studying in Oxford. 54 00:04:40,290 --> 00:04:46,349 Um, it's, you know, the city of Dreaming spires. Uh, but I was also not in a great mental state while I was at Oxford. 55 00:04:46,350 --> 00:04:50,100 I felt extremely out of my depth. I felt quite lonely and homesick. 56 00:04:50,100 --> 00:04:57,270 And I ended up with this. Quite a dark vision of the city where the colleges were home to supernatural creatures 57 00:04:57,270 --> 00:05:03,210 who were forcing young people to take exams that that would dictate the rest of. 58 00:05:03,270 --> 00:05:07,950 Their lives. Admittedly, I made them hot gods, but it's, um. 59 00:05:08,130 --> 00:05:12,750 Yeah. It was. This strange combination came out of a dystopia and a fantasy, 60 00:05:12,750 --> 00:05:19,350 and I really enjoyed combining those two genres because one of them is very gritty and realistic, and the other is about escapism. 61 00:05:19,770 --> 00:05:23,280 So the bone season, it's a deeply difficult series. To summarise. 62 00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:24,599 I've been trying to do it for years, 63 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:32,040 but I generally say it's about a young Irish woman with an extraordinary ability going up against an empire founded by the gods. 64 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:37,620 It's a retelling of various Greek myths, including Hades and Persephone and Orpheus and Eurydice. 65 00:05:38,430 --> 00:05:48,240 Um, and that is a seven book series. I've written five of them so far, and The Roots of Chaos is epic fantasy, so it's more just a single genre. 66 00:05:48,390 --> 00:05:53,250 Um, each book is a standalone, um, or it's as much of a standalone as I can make it. 67 00:05:53,250 --> 00:06:00,030 Anyway. Um, and that one is I usually pitch it as a feminist reimagining of The Legend of Saint George and the Dragon. 68 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:04,080 Um, there's more to it than that. It's set in a world where there are two different kinds of magic. 69 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:10,080 Uh, one is the magic of starlight, which comes from the heavens, and one is the magic of fire, which comes from the deep earth. 70 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,649 There is a very delicate balance between those two kinds of magic. 71 00:06:13,650 --> 00:06:19,110 And if that balance is unsettled, things go terribly wrong in the form of a volcano erupting and fire breathing, 72 00:06:19,110 --> 00:06:23,009 dragons emerging, which does not go well for anyone. Um, um, yeah. 73 00:06:23,010 --> 00:06:29,700 It's basically, uh, a huge epic journey where I use it to dwell on various subjects like motherhood, 74 00:06:29,700 --> 00:06:34,919 like the, you know, coming of age, like the power of destiny, like lots of big themes. 75 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,130 It's it's why I do that. Yeah. I mean, wow. 76 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:40,500 Um, I think the only thing. 77 00:06:40,500 --> 00:06:45,870 Well, there's lots of lots of crossover in both of your works, but, um, I think the main one is that your protagonists have quite a bad time. 78 00:06:46,140 --> 00:06:52,650 Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I remember my grandmother, who sadly died in 2019, but she was the biggest fan of the Bowen season. 79 00:06:52,650 --> 00:06:59,400 And I remember I got a call from my grandfather one day and he just said, Samantha, your grandmother's terribly upset. 80 00:06:59,610 --> 00:07:03,230 And I was like, why? And he was like, oh, something about somebody called Paige. 81 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:07,770 Like, apparently you've been very nasty to her. I was like, yeah, that's pretty much all my books. 82 00:07:08,190 --> 00:07:14,700 You really have justice for Paige. Um, so let's let's sort of bring it back to an obvious one. 83 00:07:14,940 --> 00:07:20,520 Um, and this might sort of frame, um, or bring in quite a lot of what we've heard over the last couple of days. 84 00:07:20,820 --> 00:07:24,090 Um, but why fantasy as a genre for you? 85 00:07:24,420 --> 00:07:30,180 Um, and what does it allow for you in terms of sort of storytelling? Um, and what compelled you to get there? 86 00:07:31,110 --> 00:07:34,649 I've just always been very drawn fancy ever since I was a child. 87 00:07:34,650 --> 00:07:39,780 I mean, the stories I read as a child tend to be fantasy. Um, the films I watch were fantasy. 88 00:07:39,780 --> 00:07:44,519 I've also been a gamer since I was young, and I feel like gaming is is often fantastical. 89 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:50,160 It just allows you to escape your reality and just for your own story a lot of the time. 90 00:07:50,610 --> 00:07:55,380 Um, I like fantasy personally, because I think it is the most versatile of any genre. 91 00:07:55,410 --> 00:08:03,920 You can not only combine it with virtually any other genre, but you can do so much with it by either sticking very close to reality, 92 00:08:03,930 --> 00:08:07,799 up to reality, or pulling away from it so you can have fantasy. 93 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:12,690 That's basically our world, just with a very thin glaze of magical realism on top. 94 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:18,000 Or you can go right the way out and just create any world you want in your imagination. 95 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:22,500 Just anything that you can break the laws of physics, you can create magic. 96 00:08:22,500 --> 00:08:25,620 You can decide to have a hard or a soft magic system. 97 00:08:25,950 --> 00:08:30,179 There are just so many things you can do with it. Literally, the only limit is your imagination. 98 00:08:30,180 --> 00:08:36,870 And I've always found that very, very powerful. So I love being able to write the World of the bone season, which is basically our world. 99 00:08:37,110 --> 00:08:43,290 But again, with that glaze of magic over the top, or I can write The Priory of the Orange Tree and I can conjure whatever I like. 100 00:08:43,290 --> 00:08:49,290 You know, if I want to write a battle in a valley, I can create a valley. Um, and I love the challenges that both of those represent. 101 00:08:49,290 --> 00:08:52,919 I love the challenge of creating a world and writing its rules myself. 102 00:08:52,920 --> 00:09:00,780 I also love researching our world and thinking of ways to twist it in a way that just distorts the mirror of reality just a little bit. 103 00:09:01,230 --> 00:09:06,510 So that, for me, is really exciting. It feels like I would never need to leave the genre because why would you? 104 00:09:06,530 --> 00:09:09,690 There's so many possibilities attached to it. I hope you never do. 105 00:09:10,770 --> 00:09:15,390 I might maybe do a little bit of historical at some point, but I think I will always return to fantasy. 106 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:20,970 Yeah, I mean, we are. We'll talk later a little bit about what your next big project and sort of new project is going to be. 107 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:25,920 Um, but yeah, I mean, I think particularly in the Bowen season, 108 00:09:26,130 --> 00:09:30,420 one of the things that I love is how you have quite a fixed point at which it departs our world. 109 00:09:30,990 --> 00:09:33,629 Um, and I always thought, that's quite, quite amazing. 110 00:09:33,630 --> 00:09:38,400 And then you swing over to the Roots of Chaos Cycle, which is the creation of completely separate space. 111 00:09:38,700 --> 00:09:40,920 I wonder if both of those are kind of an answer to each other. 112 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:47,440 Um, and if you wrote one because you'd written the other and vice versa, you were able to kind of because you, 113 00:09:47,460 --> 00:09:51,750 because you published one and then another and then one and then another. And that's quite unusual. 114 00:09:51,970 --> 00:09:56,790 Then people go straight to the end of one and then start a new thing, like, how is that and why is that? 115 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:02,820 Yeah. So it wasn't actually intentional that I was going to be juggling two theories at the same time. 116 00:10:03,310 --> 00:10:07,660 I think it is a good thing that I did it, because I probably would have written the bone season to the end, 117 00:10:07,660 --> 00:10:14,540 but because it's a seven book series, I think that there is a risk that your voice can stagnate if you don't push it. 118 00:10:14,560 --> 00:10:19,270 So I'm writing in the bone system from one character's perspective, in one voice for many years, 119 00:10:19,660 --> 00:10:24,900 and I love that, but I think that it did carry a risk of I think you need to keep pushing yourself, you know? 120 00:10:24,910 --> 00:10:28,090 Otherwise I would have only been able to write in Page's voice at some point. 121 00:10:28,540 --> 00:10:33,489 And I think the fact that I had to push myself out of my comfort zone with the roots of chaos was a really good thing, 122 00:10:33,490 --> 00:10:36,700 and it's taught me a lot about myself. It's taught me how to be a better writer. 123 00:10:37,090 --> 00:10:40,570 The reason that I decided to diverge at the point I did was because. 124 00:10:41,170 --> 00:10:48,160 So every writer, I think, has a book that nearly killed them. And for me, with the song rising, which is the third book in the bone season series, 125 00:10:48,460 --> 00:10:54,610 I think I wrote a draft of a book that felt more like connective tissue between two other instalments, 126 00:10:54,610 --> 00:10:59,200 rather than a strong instalment itself, and that left me just. 127 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:04,329 I felt like it took a really long time to repair it in the edits, and because I'm a full time writer, 128 00:11:04,330 --> 00:11:08,650 I didn't really have anything to do while it was with my editor for suspiciously long periods of time. 129 00:11:09,370 --> 00:11:13,479 Um, so I decided I was finally going to write the Dragon book I'd always wanted to write, 130 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,450 and I'd always been fascinated by the legend of George and the Dragon. 131 00:11:16,710 --> 00:11:21,430 I was raised in the Church of England, so Saint George was always quite a large figure in my childhood. 132 00:11:21,910 --> 00:11:25,840 Um, and I actually returned to how I used to write as a teenager at that point, 133 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:30,520 because I've always historically written in third person, um, from limited perspectives. 134 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:36,310 And it was quite a surprise when I wrote The Bone Season that Page's voice came out, you know, this really strong first person voice. 135 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:43,780 Um, so I went back to writing third. And I like that the two offer different limits, but also different possibilities. 136 00:11:43,780 --> 00:11:45,309 So I love that first person. 137 00:11:45,310 --> 00:11:52,629 You can really dig into one character's voice, you know, and there's that wonderful fact that you're just telling their story in this world, 138 00:11:52,630 --> 00:11:58,030 and you're not sure how reliable or unreliable they are. You can just really shape the narrative from their perspective. 139 00:11:58,030 --> 00:12:01,179 Whereas in The Roots of Chaos, I have a bit more freedom to move around. 140 00:12:01,180 --> 00:12:06,500 So I have like four perspective characters in each book that allows me to show a little bit more of the world. 141 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:10,390 Um, but yeah, I think it was a good thing that I pushed myself to do both. 142 00:12:10,900 --> 00:12:13,150 I think everyone would agree. Um. 143 00:12:14,430 --> 00:12:21,059 There's a lot of talk of fantasy as being quite a modern thing when you work in publishing, obviously not when you're in a room such as this one. 144 00:12:21,060 --> 00:12:24,210 What we've been hearing, um, so much about kind of the history of it. 145 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:29,010 Um, but I mean, it's one of the some of our earliest storytelling. 146 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:33,959 Um, what does the genre mean to you and what like what do you term fantasy? 147 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,240 Where do you where does it start and what does it stop for you? 148 00:12:37,020 --> 00:12:42,809 It's a difficult question because again, there are so many different definitions depending on which subgenre you're working in. 149 00:12:42,810 --> 00:12:47,010 And there's also the, the overarching genre that's called speculative fiction. 150 00:12:47,010 --> 00:12:51,690 Um, so you could argue that many different genres have elements of fantasy to them. 151 00:12:51,690 --> 00:12:56,040 I mean, what's the line between sci fi and fantasy or the line between dystopia and fantasy? 152 00:12:56,040 --> 00:13:01,800 There's a lot of there's a lot of speculative aspects that I think can be put against fantasy, and it's like, how similar are they? 153 00:13:02,340 --> 00:13:08,160 Um, I think for me, fantasy is probably anything that technically exists beyond the limits of reality. 154 00:13:08,370 --> 00:13:14,609 Um, but then again, that is complicated because sci fi, I feel like, is a beyond the limits of reality. 155 00:13:14,610 --> 00:13:21,510 But it could at some point happen like there's a, you know, it feels like it could be possible at some point with scientific advancement, 156 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:26,070 whereas fantasy, I wonder if it's just something that is inherently impossible. 157 00:13:26,490 --> 00:13:30,810 Um, but like I said, it's such a versatile genre. It's very difficult to define. 158 00:13:31,020 --> 00:13:34,589 But it is interesting that is considered to be a new genre because it really is. 159 00:13:34,590 --> 00:13:40,650 And I mean, to me, it's the oldest genre, you know, folklore legends, they, they so many of them contain elements of fantasy. 160 00:13:40,980 --> 00:13:46,020 It is. And everyone will forgive me for asking that question, but this is just the most chance for me to chat to her. 161 00:13:46,530 --> 00:13:55,439 So, um, what from the perspective of a successful, prolific author of over a decade, and I don't want to frame it as like long in the tooth, 162 00:13:55,440 --> 00:14:02,160 but with a lot of newcomers into the genre, um, coming up through the charts, you are a mainstay. 163 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:06,750 How do you see fantasy genre's commercial expansion over the last couple of years, 164 00:14:06,750 --> 00:14:11,580 and what do you think's changed, um, beyond rude intrusion into your charts? 165 00:14:11,940 --> 00:14:18,179 Um, and what do you think's been gained or lost? Um, I love that you said about being long in the tooth, because one of my friends the other day, 166 00:14:18,180 --> 00:14:24,480 who's also an author, turned to me and said, Sam, back in your day, you know, so it's like, how dare you? 167 00:14:24,900 --> 00:14:27,930 I say, it's funny because I'm one of the youngest authors in my friend group. 168 00:14:27,940 --> 00:14:31,320 I've been around the old the longest just because I was published so young. 169 00:14:31,830 --> 00:14:37,860 Um, it's it's changed a lot in recent years, I would say, um, I'd say the genre has exploded, 170 00:14:37,890 --> 00:14:43,050 um, since, I mean, it was it wasn't unpopular when I first arrived in fantasy, 171 00:14:43,380 --> 00:14:50,580 um, I was published in 2013, and at the time, we had actually only just got off the dystopian trend that had been the trend of the moment. 172 00:14:50,610 --> 00:14:55,290 So sort of 2009, early 20 tens was still all about The Hunger Games, really. 173 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,680 Um, and that was the genre I was also writing in. 174 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,049 You know, I like I said, I combine fantasy and dystopia. 175 00:15:01,050 --> 00:15:06,570 So it was an interesting time, and I think it actually helped the bone season survive all these years. 176 00:15:06,570 --> 00:15:11,370 It still has a very passionate readership following it, and I think that is because it's two genres. 177 00:15:11,370 --> 00:15:15,179 So when dystopia started to phase out, it was still fantasy. 178 00:15:15,180 --> 00:15:21,060 And now people talk about dystopia coming back. It's I think that versatility has allowed it to survive. 179 00:15:21,210 --> 00:15:25,140 Um, we have like I said, we have seen so much change in the genre. 180 00:15:25,620 --> 00:15:28,400 Um, the newest thing is, of course, romantically. 181 00:15:28,410 --> 00:15:35,520 Um, and I feel like we're still struggling for a definition of romance to see all of these years after it's it's first appeared, you know. 182 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:41,040 Is it does it have to have the genre conventions of romance, which includes a happy ending or does it not? 183 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,939 You know what? How do we define it versus fantasy with romance? 184 00:15:44,940 --> 00:15:49,559 Um, I mean, I write fantasy with romance, but I'm not sure I would define it as romantically. 185 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:55,379 So that's been interesting. I think it's been great to see it bring so many new readers into the genre. 186 00:15:55,380 --> 00:16:02,280 It feels like it's opened a door that feels more accessible, perhaps, um, because fantasy can be intimidating for some people, 187 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:09,179 I think, um, not only because the books are often very long like mine, but you have to learn a whole terminology of words. 188 00:16:09,180 --> 00:16:14,909 Um, that's quite a steep learning curve. It's really like you're going into a whole new culture and learning its customs. 189 00:16:14,910 --> 00:16:21,120 And I think that I, I also think that people sometimes don't realise there's a learning curve to fantasy, and that can become intimidating. 190 00:16:21,300 --> 00:16:24,720 When you open a fantasy book, you're not meant to understand everything. 191 00:16:24,990 --> 00:16:29,640 And I think people feel they don't understand it. Therefore, there must be something wrong with them. 192 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:34,229 And I always want to put a label at the beginning to say, you know, it's okay that you don't understand. 193 00:16:34,230 --> 00:16:35,880 It's going to click at some point. 194 00:16:36,180 --> 00:16:43,259 But I think that's why sometimes the genre puts people off because they feel lost and it's like it's you'll get you'll get that, don't worry. 195 00:16:43,260 --> 00:16:47,010 Um, yeah. And imagination is a bit of a muscle, isn't it? You have to kind of work it. 196 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:53,700 Exactly. Um, and one note that I often give is actually not to you, but, um, 197 00:16:54,180 --> 00:16:58,410 you don't have to explain this always, because it's quite fun letting the reader figure it out. 198 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,950 Oh, absolutely. And laying it all out there, it's really unrewarding. 199 00:17:02,010 --> 00:17:06,810 Yeah. Um, and it's it's rewarding to push past that not knowing, isn't it? 200 00:17:07,140 --> 00:17:10,500 It is. Um, I think a good example is actually a dystopian book. 201 00:17:10,500 --> 00:17:13,320 So I love the novel A Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess. 202 00:17:14,100 --> 00:17:18,780 I love that when he's he has this slang in the books that I think is loosely based on Russian, 203 00:17:18,780 --> 00:17:23,969 and he keeps referring to his head as his Gulliver, and he never explains that. 204 00:17:23,970 --> 00:17:25,950 He just keeps referring to his Gulliver hurting. 205 00:17:25,950 --> 00:17:33,480 And through context and osmosis, you eventually pick up that he means heads and he never says you know, by the way, Gulliver means head. 206 00:17:33,510 --> 00:17:37,020 You just get it after a while. Um, and I love that. It's very fluid. 207 00:17:37,020 --> 00:17:41,250 Worldbuilding. Your first conversation after you read that book is such a weird one with people. 208 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:45,890 Yeah, it's a very strange and puts me in a very weird place. 209 00:17:45,900 --> 00:17:50,100 It does? Yeah. Um, so if imagination is a muscle, I think as well. 210 00:17:50,100 --> 00:17:59,640 Um, part of the paragraph that Katherine Mundell quoted earlier is Ursula Ursula Le Gwyn also saying imagination is the instrument of ethics. 211 00:18:00,060 --> 00:18:07,920 Um, do you agree? And do you think that fantasy is able to address current issues and reality in a way that maybe realism can't? 212 00:18:08,340 --> 00:18:16,169 Oh, absolutely. Um, and you can choose for fantasy to be a mirror, and you can choose how clear or hazy that mirror is. 213 00:18:16,170 --> 00:18:22,200 You can dwell quite explicitly on real world issues, I think, but you can also talk about them in a more roundabout way. 214 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:27,059 I think sometimes when you address an issue head on, it can feel a little bit didactic. 215 00:18:27,060 --> 00:18:29,340 It can feel as if you're preaching to the reader. 216 00:18:29,340 --> 00:18:35,970 Whereas I think that fantasy allows you the engine to explore issues and dwell on them and just sort of ask, 217 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,750 invite the reader to wonder what they think about this. 218 00:18:39,750 --> 00:18:46,200 Um, it just by placing it slightly away from the real world, it strips it of a lot of the political implications that we have. 219 00:18:46,620 --> 00:18:53,819 And I think it speaks to people. It breaks through that sort of political tribalism that causes people to close their minds to ideas. 220 00:18:53,820 --> 00:19:00,180 Sometimes, um, and sometimes with fantasy. You can be an unintentional oracle with these things, because when you're writing, 221 00:19:00,180 --> 00:19:04,770 you don't know what world the book is going to be published into and what context it will be read in. 222 00:19:04,770 --> 00:19:09,389 So a day of fall and night, um, is my second Roots of Chaos book. 223 00:19:09,390 --> 00:19:13,080 And that book is very much about motherhood, is about bodily autonomy. 224 00:19:13,410 --> 00:19:18,180 Um, when it was released, unlike when I started it, we were in a post Roe versus Wade world, 225 00:19:18,630 --> 00:19:23,970 and that was quite shocking for me because I realised that that was the context in which the book was going to be read. 226 00:19:23,970 --> 00:19:28,950 Um, similarly, the book is about a pandemic. Um, it was not about Covid 19. 227 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,310 Um, it was supposed to be about the Black Death. That was the inspiration. 228 00:19:32,550 --> 00:19:37,440 But I realised when it was released that no one was going to be able to read it outside the context of the pandemic. 229 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:42,120 So it is strange that you can write a book years before it gets published, 230 00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:46,530 and then you you just don't know what context it's going to be read in politically. 231 00:19:46,890 --> 00:19:50,070 Um, but yeah, I think fantasy can be an incredibly powerful tool for that. 232 00:19:50,070 --> 00:19:52,229 And, you know, some fancy authors are quite explicit. 233 00:19:52,230 --> 00:19:58,680 Um, sometimes you do have the freedom to use anachronisms if you want, um, because again, the genre allows for that. 234 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:05,639 So I just read an extraordinary book called The Island The Silver Sea by Tasha Suri, which is about nation building and the power of stories. 235 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:11,100 And she even though it's a quite Elizabethan inspired setting, she uses words like queer and trans, 236 00:20:11,100 --> 00:20:15,899 and it it does dwell on modern issues about queer and trans rights. 237 00:20:15,900 --> 00:20:22,469 Um, and I think that was really interesting, um, because you also have fantasy that would perhaps make up a word as an alternative, 238 00:20:22,470 --> 00:20:27,570 but it does give you the flexibility to decide, like how closely you want to stick to reality. 239 00:20:27,930 --> 00:20:31,680 God, how brilliant to put lace on these issues. 240 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:35,010 Yeah, I think, um, yeah. That's fantastic. 241 00:20:35,460 --> 00:20:40,290 Um, I guess, yeah. Talking about, you know, the possibilities for it. 242 00:20:40,290 --> 00:20:44,100 And I think we do talk a lot about how fantasy is limitless by its nature. 243 00:20:44,580 --> 00:20:47,880 Um, in terms of what it can allow for in creation and expression. 244 00:20:48,150 --> 00:20:52,800 Um, what are the limitations, though, um, of working in the genre? 245 00:20:53,070 --> 00:21:02,010 Are there any what do you feel as a limit? Um, I think for me personally, there has to be enough of a limit to establish the stakes of the world. 246 00:21:02,010 --> 00:21:09,239 And in order to create a sense of parallel to the characters, you have to have limits on what the magic can do, 247 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,670 because otherwise you could have a character fall off a cliff, 248 00:21:11,910 --> 00:21:17,070 and all of a sudden, out of nowhere, there's a new kind of magic that makes you grow wings when you fall off a cliff. 249 00:21:17,670 --> 00:21:24,510 However, you had never previously established that, um, and that's where you have to decide on the rules of your magic system. 250 00:21:24,510 --> 00:21:31,709 Um, you can have a, you know, a relatively soft magic system, I think, but I think it is good to establish some rules of this world. 251 00:21:31,710 --> 00:21:33,210 And if you break the rules, 252 00:21:33,210 --> 00:21:40,230 I think there should be some kind of reason why it shouldn't just feel like a dose ex machina where any anything can happen, 253 00:21:40,230 --> 00:21:43,440 because then you know that the characters are never in true danger. 254 00:21:43,650 --> 00:21:50,520 Um, so I think that for me is the limit. Um, I do like to build my worlds with care as well. 255 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:55,290 I like to think that they feel realistic. Um, the way I do that is to ask myself questions. 256 00:21:55,290 --> 00:21:59,040 So I imagine the questions that readers might ask about the world. 257 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:03,329 If you were a particularly insightful reader and I force myself to answer those questions. 258 00:22:03,330 --> 00:22:05,340 Um, so I just make a long list of them. 259 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:11,760 I think, you know, if if we have a country where it's a desert country, you know, how are the people accessing clean water, for example? 260 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,360 That's the kind of question I would ask myself. Does it always appear in the text? 261 00:22:15,390 --> 00:22:20,430 No, but I like knowing the icebergs so that I can show the tip of it. 262 00:22:21,510 --> 00:22:26,969 I guess as an author of long series or as an author of multiple books within a kind of world 263 00:22:26,970 --> 00:22:32,160 or a history is how do you manage that with the limitations that you establish on yourself? 264 00:22:32,190 --> 00:22:37,500 Do you constantly curse? Samantha with two books ago. Um, sometimes, yes. 265 00:22:37,590 --> 00:22:41,639 Um, it's I think for me, I really like writing long series, 266 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:46,549 and I think that it's the fact that I'm able to write a seven book series with the bonuses. 267 00:22:46,550 --> 00:22:51,090 Season feels like such an enormous privilege, because that is not handed to a lot of authors. 268 00:22:51,090 --> 00:22:56,249 It's mostly tends to be, uh, dualities or trilogies or even standalones nowadays. 269 00:22:56,250 --> 00:23:00,239 Um, and I think that there are so many wonderful possibilities with long series. 270 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:04,910 It's just getting to stick with that same cast of characters on a really long journey. 271 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,130 Um, not only can I show more of the world that I've created, 272 00:23:08,430 --> 00:23:14,950 but I can also have my character go through a lot more forward progress, followed by a regression, followed by progress. 273 00:23:14,970 --> 00:23:17,580 It's like, you know, two steps forward, three steps back. 274 00:23:17,940 --> 00:23:24,749 Uh, with Paige, my main character, you know, she's she has the ability to grow, but then she does make mistakes and backslide sometimes. 275 00:23:24,750 --> 00:23:28,709 And I just really like being able to sit with that character for such a long time. 276 00:23:28,710 --> 00:23:32,130 Like, it's just it's been such an extraordinary part of writing the Bowen season. 277 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:37,590 I think that's something people really love about fantasy is the longevity of the character stories, 278 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,670 and that's in gaming, but also in comics, um, and also in cinema. 279 00:23:41,970 --> 00:23:46,080 Um, we take trilogies for granted, but I think some other genres would kill for them. 280 00:23:46,180 --> 00:23:54,630 Oh, absolutely. Um, and I think, um, the ability that you get to really dig into a character, um, as well as well, it's obviously it's amazing. 281 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,260 Um, you're so good at that. And poor Paige for what you put her through. 282 00:23:58,770 --> 00:24:03,030 Um, so when you are building world, what does come first? 283 00:24:03,990 --> 00:24:06,970 It's tricky because it's can sometimes depend on the book. 284 00:24:06,980 --> 00:24:11,940 So with Roots of Chaos, it was fundamentally the legend of George and the Dragon came first. 285 00:24:11,970 --> 00:24:19,080 Um, and then I started to research that legend, and I became more and more intrigued by the layers to it. 286 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,559 And I kept finding little details in the legend about, for example, 287 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,700 there's one version in which Saint George fights the dragon underneath an enchanted orange tree. 288 00:24:27,090 --> 00:24:31,770 Um, so the more details I was plucking, the more story I was coming up with. 289 00:24:31,770 --> 00:24:35,400 But it fundamentally started with that story because it is a retelling. 290 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:42,810 Um, and then when I start building, I tend to do what I might call sketch worldbuilding first. 291 00:24:42,810 --> 00:24:45,480 So just worldbuilding with, like, a very light pencil. 292 00:24:45,490 --> 00:24:51,420 Um, I have to know just enough of the structure, whether that's like the political structure or the social structure, 293 00:24:51,690 --> 00:24:58,229 the magic structure, to put my character into that world. And then I allowed the character to act as an engine of the world building. 294 00:24:58,230 --> 00:25:03,840 So as they're walking down the street, I'm thinking about things they're seeing on the street, and I'm asking myself questions about that. 295 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,440 What kind of music are they hearing? What kind of food are the street vendors selling? 296 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,860 Is there a preacher on the street? What religion is that person from? 297 00:25:11,310 --> 00:25:14,010 Um, what kind of people are they saying around them? What are they wearing? 298 00:25:14,010 --> 00:25:19,200 So I the character shapes the direction of my worldbuilding in my research, 299 00:25:19,410 --> 00:25:22,649 because otherwise you would just get stuck in a research pit forever, I think. 300 00:25:22,650 --> 00:25:23,850 I think there's a huge risk of that. 301 00:25:23,850 --> 00:25:29,339 Sometimes people say to me, you know, did you do as much worldbuilding as Tolkien before he started the Lord of the rings? 302 00:25:29,340 --> 00:25:34,590 I was like, no, absolutely no. You know, he was a very intense world builder, and I think that's great. 303 00:25:34,590 --> 00:25:38,940 But for me, I would just end up writing an encyclopaedia about the world before I did about the story. 304 00:25:38,940 --> 00:25:44,270 So I just had to jump in at some point. I mean, you're amazing researcher and also an amazing writer of food. 305 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:52,440 I think I put on so much weight while editing this book. Um, but you I mean, you travel quite famously, particularly for the Bowen season. 306 00:25:52,860 --> 00:25:55,530 Um, but also for the roots of chaos cycling as well. 307 00:25:55,830 --> 00:26:02,700 Um, and, um, I guess my next question was, you know, there's this misconception that fantasy not in this room, 308 00:26:02,970 --> 00:26:06,090 but that it's easy, um, and that you can just make it up. 309 00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:10,620 Um, you've kind of answered it, but research plays a big role for you. 310 00:26:10,620 --> 00:26:14,099 How about travel? How do you navigate travel as a way of accessing research? 311 00:26:14,100 --> 00:26:18,600 How do you go about it? Yeah, I mean, travel is again a privilege. 312 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,200 And I know that not every author can afford to travel like I do. 313 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:26,729 So I'm certainly not saying that you can't rely purely on your imagination or indeed on Google Maps, 314 00:26:26,730 --> 00:26:30,000 which is the most helpful invention of the last ten years, as far as I'm concerned. 315 00:26:30,420 --> 00:26:36,030 Um, I do like to travel, um, for both series, um, with slightly different intentions. 316 00:26:36,030 --> 00:26:41,459 So with the Roots of Chaos series, each of the countries in the world is loosely based on a real one. 317 00:26:41,460 --> 00:26:46,980 So where possible, I wanted to go to some of those countries, especially the ones that were going to be the most prominent in the books, 318 00:26:47,220 --> 00:26:52,770 just to catch small details, like when I was in Japan, which was the influence that the inspiration for psyche. 319 00:26:53,130 --> 00:26:58,110 Um, I remember I was walking down the street and I heard what I thought was a baby's cry. 320 00:26:58,590 --> 00:27:00,479 I turned around and there was no one there. 321 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:07,980 It was a completely empty street, but this bird fluttered past me, and in my mind I combined that into a bird with a baby's cry. 322 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,450 And I created this whole mythology behind that bird. And in the world of the Priory. 323 00:27:12,450 --> 00:27:14,950 So sometimes I just pick up. On small details like that. 324 00:27:15,460 --> 00:27:22,780 Um, and then with the bone season, I, I feel like I often have to do in-person research because I'm writing about cities that people actually live in. 325 00:27:23,170 --> 00:27:28,780 So if Paige, the main character, makes a wrong turn, somebody is going to know it and they're going to tell me about it. 326 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:36,640 Um, and I'm very dedicated to my research. Um, so I will often do slightly absurd things to try to get the maximum detail possible. 327 00:27:36,670 --> 00:27:39,970 Um, for example, um, the dark mirror was set in Italy. 328 00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:47,320 Um, and there's a scene on the island of Capri. And the famously the biggest landmark on Capri is the Blue Grotto. 329 00:27:47,710 --> 00:27:51,940 And I was absolutely determined I had to go to the Blue Grotto because there was a whole scene in there. 330 00:27:52,390 --> 00:27:56,080 And I went there and they said, the tide is too high and is closed today. 331 00:27:56,110 --> 00:28:00,280 And I had one night on that island, and I was not paying for any more, because Capri is incredibly expensive. 332 00:28:00,670 --> 00:28:07,150 Um, so to feel like I hadn't missed out on the opportunity, I decided that I was going to jump into the sea. 333 00:28:07,330 --> 00:28:11,890 The story stresses me out every time I hear it. And I did not have a costume. 334 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:16,149 I jumped in fully clothed, um, swam to the opening of the cave, 335 00:28:16,150 --> 00:28:20,020 and at this point my survival instinct kicked in and I thought, don't go in because you will drown. 336 00:28:20,020 --> 00:28:24,040 And like, I just, I just really had to look at the entrance of the cave. 337 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:29,620 So I felt like I'd got something from this trip, and I was like, well, it it looks very much like the entrance of a cave. 338 00:28:29,980 --> 00:28:39,190 Um, and then I swam away and I had to spend the whole rest of the day on Capri, soaked to my skin with people staring at me, asking if I'd fallen in. 339 00:28:39,430 --> 00:28:43,360 Um. And I couldn't bring myself to answer, so I just said yes, I fell in. 340 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,230 Um, but yeah, that's the kind of research I do. It's it's a little unhinged. 341 00:28:47,410 --> 00:28:52,750 You have a quite rich fascination with caves, actually. I do, I do, um, I love a cave quite a lot. 342 00:28:52,780 --> 00:28:59,380 Yeah. Um. So claustrophobic. Sometimes when you're talking to me about things that have interested you, I think particularly deaths within caves. 343 00:28:59,410 --> 00:29:03,220 Yeah. Anything that lives within your mind in a way that I think is unusual and quite brilliant. 344 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:10,600 Yeah. There are quite a lot of caves in A day for the night because, um, it's basically a story about a war between dragons and humans and the way, 345 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,440 the way I thought humans would probably respond to that was by hiding in caves. 346 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:18,849 Because how else do you fight a fire breathing dragon except by going to hide in a corner somewhere? 347 00:29:18,850 --> 00:29:22,929 So I, I really obsessed over caves for about a year, and then I obsessed over mountains. 348 00:29:22,930 --> 00:29:26,020 That was fun. Um, I did not climb Everest. 349 00:29:26,050 --> 00:29:30,790 Um, because I can't do that. But I wanted to in my mind as Google Maps for that. 350 00:29:30,940 --> 00:29:34,390 There is. Yeah. And YouTube is. That can be very helpful sometimes. 351 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:40,059 Sometimes. Um, so I mean, talking of caves, this is a bit of a loose. 352 00:29:40,060 --> 00:29:48,310 What a segue way. Here we go. Segway. But the Greeks, um, they they probably had caves because, you know, there's, you know, 353 00:29:48,310 --> 00:29:53,770 there's, uh, the philosophy of what what are you turning to for your next project, Samantha? 354 00:29:53,770 --> 00:29:59,649 What's next? Um, after fantasy? Um, well, currently I'm finishing the sixth Bowen season book, um, 355 00:29:59,650 --> 00:30:04,479 which is very it's kind of exciting and scary because I've been working on this series since I was 19, 356 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:10,690 and I'm turning 34 this year, so not knowing I'm on the penultimate book is terrifying, actually. 357 00:30:10,690 --> 00:30:15,550 Um, but also thrilling because I finally get to reveal some of the big secrets I've been working on for a decade. 358 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:21,370 Uh, the next thing I'm doing up to that is a book about the Greek goddess Iris, uh, which I'm excited about. 359 00:30:21,370 --> 00:30:26,739 I'm a little intimidated because there are so many great books that are reimagining the stories of Greek goddesses at the moment, 360 00:30:26,740 --> 00:30:29,770 and I'm aware that I'm stepping onto the shoulders of giants. 361 00:30:29,770 --> 00:30:33,100 Um, but for me, I wanted to pick a very minor goddess. 362 00:30:33,130 --> 00:30:40,270 Um, so Iris, uh, is the personification of the rainbow in Greek mythology, and she's also the messenger to the Olympian gods. 363 00:30:40,270 --> 00:30:44,140 And I felt pretty confident that nobody else was going to write a book about her. 364 00:30:44,170 --> 00:30:47,469 In fact, when I say Iris, a lot of people like who? Um. 365 00:30:47,470 --> 00:30:54,550 But that for me was the great challenge of it, because Iris does not have she she has stories scattered across mythology, 366 00:30:54,850 --> 00:30:58,749 but she doesn't really have a unique body of mythology that is hers. 367 00:30:58,750 --> 00:31:02,560 And she also does not appear to have had a dedicated cult in ancient Greece. 368 00:31:02,890 --> 00:31:06,910 Um, even Homer, you know, between the Iliad and the Odyssey, he replaces Iris. 369 00:31:06,940 --> 00:31:12,639 You know, he just he literally just doesn't really mention her. Um, and I was I was fascinated by her. 370 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:21,370 So I wanted to take on the challenge of weaving together the fragments of mythology from across Greek and Roman times and create one book about her. 371 00:31:21,700 --> 00:31:23,409 I think that's a really nice note to end on, 372 00:31:23,410 --> 00:31:29,140 because I think one of the things that we've heard a lot about today is how particularly Tolkin would write in the gaps. 373 00:31:29,230 --> 00:31:34,960 Yes. Um, and how, you know, those gaps and those absences can be quite creative spaces. 374 00:31:35,530 --> 00:31:41,440 Um, and I think in that sense, you're sort of stepping into quite a, quite you continuing to step into quite a grand tradition, 375 00:31:41,860 --> 00:31:46,420 um, in the sense of answering back to the canon and sort of moving into the future. 376 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,650 Absolutely. Oh. So excited. Um, I want to make sure that there is question. 377 00:31:50,650 --> 00:31:56,979 There is time for questions from the audience. Um, so, uh, firstly, thank you. 378 00:31:56,980 --> 00:32:05,280 Samantha. So. Hi. 379 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:13,360 Hi. Something I really love about racing chaos is the way in which the myths and legends are talked to about different cultures, 380 00:32:13,780 --> 00:32:18,010 and how they're different tales about the history of the civilisations. 381 00:32:18,340 --> 00:32:26,890 And so this is like my own writing a lot. So how do you go about creating work very even between those cultures in a way that inspired them? 382 00:32:27,580 --> 00:32:30,219 Yeah, I've always found it really interesting. 383 00:32:30,220 --> 00:32:37,030 Um, for example, with the Abrahamic religions that they share, you know, they're very different religions, but they share similar origins. 384 00:32:37,030 --> 00:32:39,250 So that was one of my inspirations for that. 385 00:32:39,610 --> 00:32:45,610 I love the idea that multiple religions could have sprung from one story and the different interpretations around that. 386 00:32:45,610 --> 00:32:50,349 So that was yeah, I just I thought that would be fascinating, particularly in the context of Saint George and the Dragon, 387 00:32:50,350 --> 00:32:53,979 which is what I'm tackling in The Priory of the Orange Tree. Um, that one. 388 00:32:53,980 --> 00:32:58,030 I was inspired by the fact that the version of Saint George that I had learned 389 00:32:58,330 --> 00:33:03,450 was actually a very sanitised version of a story that has very deep roots. 390 00:33:03,460 --> 00:33:10,570 Um, the basic story I had learned was, you know, Saint George is a brave knight who rescues a princess from a dragon. 391 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,860 When I went back into the story, I found it was much, much more layered than that. 392 00:33:14,860 --> 00:33:20,679 Um, so, for example, in the earliest version of the story I found, Saint George agrees to slay the dragon, 393 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:29,020 but only if the population of the city being terrorised by it will convert to Christianity, which I thought was not very heroic of him. 394 00:33:29,020 --> 00:33:32,889 And I was like, oh, if what if they hadn't converted to Christianity, 395 00:33:32,890 --> 00:33:36,640 would he just have written off and left them in the mouth with the terrible venomous dragon? 396 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:45,069 Um, so that that fascinated me. And then the more I dug into it, I found that a lot of things from our modern understanding of Saint George. 397 00:33:45,070 --> 00:33:49,090 So, for example, um, Saint George's sword, um, is thought to have been called Ascalon. 398 00:33:49,420 --> 00:33:55,060 And I asked who name to ask along, and I traced that back to a story from the Elizabethan era. 399 00:33:55,090 --> 00:34:02,440 Um, and this author called Richard Johnson had not only named the sword Ascalon, but he had also created the myth of the English Saint George. 400 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:08,860 Saint George was not English, as far as we know. Um, he was from an area that's analogous with modern day Turkey. 401 00:34:09,130 --> 00:34:17,500 But at some point he not only became an English saint, a patron saint of England, but he became, bizarrely, a symbol of white nationalism. 402 00:34:17,500 --> 00:34:21,910 And this this figure that people hold up as like an icon of Englishness. 403 00:34:22,420 --> 00:34:27,700 Um, and I thought that was fascinating, that when I traced it back to this one Elizabethan version of the story, 404 00:34:27,700 --> 00:34:33,580 um, where the author changed it so that George was of an English nobleman from Coventry, randomly. 405 00:34:34,450 --> 00:34:39,459 So Saint George is from Coventry. You heard it here first. Um, and I was really, really intrigued by that. 406 00:34:39,460 --> 00:34:48,250 And particularly as I continue reading that story, I realised that the Saint George painted by this author was an extremely horrible person. 407 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:54,880 Um, the story is absolutely steeped in misogyny and racism, xenophobia, particularly Islamophobia. 408 00:34:55,300 --> 00:34:58,120 And it's it's quite shocking that throughout time, 409 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:03,729 that story had been changed to this supposedly Saint George as this figure of tolerance and courage. 410 00:35:03,730 --> 00:35:10,240 But it grew from those really corrupt roots. And so I wanted to tackle that in some way in the in the Priory of the Orange Tree. 411 00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:15,580 So I have it so that the Saint George figure, galleon breath, that was actually not a great person, 412 00:35:15,580 --> 00:35:19,600 and he stole the credit of slaying the dragon from clearing the princess. 413 00:35:20,050 --> 00:35:27,160 Um, but yeah, it was I I'm just so interested in how that story went from something very horrific to something 414 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:32,200 sanitised and held up as a symbol of Englishness and tolerance and all kinds of other things. 415 00:35:32,620 --> 00:35:35,860 And I just wanted to try to express that in a fantastical setting. 416 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:41,460 Uh, a lot of mentioning of, well, that language in China already has kind of you just have to have, 417 00:35:41,620 --> 00:35:49,120 um, you know, uh, some sense when you're talking about, um, cultures that are different. 418 00:35:49,530 --> 00:35:53,409 Um, I'm sure. 419 00:35:53,410 --> 00:36:01,570 And that's partly where the research steps in. So that's the reason I often go to places I want to meet people and see things for myself. 420 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:06,370 Um, I also fundamentally, I just try to focus on the characters as human beings. 421 00:36:06,370 --> 00:36:14,139 You know, I think that I try my best to capture aspects of real world cultures with as much respect as I can. 422 00:36:14,140 --> 00:36:17,140 You know, I do historical research. I do modern research. 423 00:36:17,140 --> 00:36:25,810 Um, I also do linguistic research. So the names of characters in the books are usually based on older forms of real world languages. 424 00:36:25,810 --> 00:36:32,830 So I will I will create those and then I will run that past a speaker of the modern version of the language to check that I've done it justice. 425 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,389 Um, but yeah, fundamentally, even though sometimes my characters are similar to me. 426 00:36:37,390 --> 00:36:43,450 So I have characters like Gloria and She'll Tart, who is pretty much modelled on my 16 year old self. 427 00:36:44,110 --> 00:36:47,349 Um, and then sometimes the characters are completely dissimilar to me. 428 00:36:47,350 --> 00:36:53,169 So I have characters like Nicklas, who is a 64 year old alchemist who's mourning the love of his life. 429 00:36:53,170 --> 00:37:00,460 Um, I have to nouveau, who is, uh, a woman in her 50s who's been in a relationship for 30 years and has a child, which I don't. 430 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:05,360 Um, but fundamentally, I just I try to think of the. First and foremost as human beings. 431 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:09,020 And I think, you know, what are the experiences that has shaped this person? 432 00:37:09,050 --> 00:37:12,410 You know, what does this person want and what is preventing them from getting it? 433 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:20,590 I just I try to empathise deeply with these characters, and usually I find I am actually more similar than than I thought in some way. 434 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:29,900 I feel I always feel very connected to them. Um, so yeah, I mean, I, I hope I've done all of the, this, this reflection of the real world justice. 435 00:37:29,930 --> 00:37:33,379 Um, it's not supposed to be a precise mirroring of the world. 436 00:37:33,380 --> 00:37:38,070 That's why it's a fantasy novel. The world of the roots of chaos is not ours. 437 00:37:38,090 --> 00:37:43,280 You know, it has many things about it that are very different from ours, and it grew from very different circumstances. 438 00:37:43,700 --> 00:37:52,010 Um, but yeah, I certainly try my best to reflect what elements I do take from the real world with as much nuance and respect as I can. 439 00:37:52,730 --> 00:37:57,590 Two interconnected quick questions. So it's fun to be us. 440 00:37:58,030 --> 00:38:02,440 You. Okay, let's use seven. 441 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:08,230 Um, g, did you plug pretty much everything from the start? 442 00:38:08,260 --> 00:38:13,240 Or it kind of unfolded as you promised and then started taking. 443 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:18,070 We lost horizon, as it were. And then, uh, linked to that. 444 00:38:18,700 --> 00:38:23,529 Um, I do quite a lot of pizza reading and, uh, in person. 445 00:38:23,530 --> 00:38:29,080 Shandra, um, what I see is same account as becoming a new Bible. 446 00:38:29,770 --> 00:38:30,849 Um, really annoys me. 447 00:38:30,850 --> 00:38:42,100 Um, um, I wondering what, uh, kind of you have take on the kind of recommended beats of the story, uh, which kind of becomes very predictable. 448 00:38:42,700 --> 00:38:51,339 So, um, that's that's for sure. Um, so in terms of how much I planned, um, quite a lot of it, um, 449 00:38:51,340 --> 00:38:56,620 I knew in advance this was going to be a seven book series, and I had to do a certain degree of planning, 450 00:38:56,620 --> 00:39:03,129 um, because, I mean, some of my author friends that I know, just so they just go in completely without any knowledge of what's happening. 451 00:39:03,130 --> 00:39:10,330 And that terrifies me. I think for a standalone, I might be able to do that, but for a seven book series, I would find that very nerve wracking. 452 00:39:10,330 --> 00:39:14,950 Um, because I need to know all of the secrets that I'm going to reveal in the later books, 453 00:39:14,950 --> 00:39:19,360 and I need to know where to plant each seed and where that seed is going to blossom. 454 00:39:19,390 --> 00:39:23,230 So I definitely did a lot of work in advance because I was so young when I wrote it. 455 00:39:23,230 --> 00:39:27,280 There were some things that I planted that I later decided just weren't really going to work, 456 00:39:27,580 --> 00:39:31,090 and that's why I completely rewrote the bone season in 2023. 457 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:37,300 Um, so I created the author's preferred texts, and I was able to clip some of the seeds that I didn't really want anymore. 458 00:39:37,720 --> 00:39:41,680 Um, but I don't rigidly plan every single detail. 459 00:39:41,710 --> 00:39:44,950 Um, and like you said about the influence of characters, um, 460 00:39:44,950 --> 00:39:50,049 I think it's great when a character actually resists what you originally thought you were going to do with them. 461 00:39:50,050 --> 00:39:53,920 I call it the character's quickening when they push back against you for the first time. 462 00:39:54,190 --> 00:39:58,930 And to me, that's the mark of a strong character, because they start to develop a will of their own. 463 00:39:59,380 --> 00:40:06,520 And I also think that, you know, if I'd planned, oh, Paige is going to do something in book five, but by the time I got to book five, 464 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,420 you know, it's possible that Paige would have grown in a different way to the way I'd anticipated. 465 00:40:10,930 --> 00:40:17,980 Um, so, yeah, I like to know the destination, but not necessarily exactly how I'm going to get there. 466 00:40:18,010 --> 00:40:22,629 I think if you don't know the destination, then you're just wandering aimlessly around the map, and that might work. 467 00:40:22,630 --> 00:40:30,190 Or it might not. Um, you might stumble upon something that you like, but I prefer to have a landmark in my mind that I'm trying to get to. 468 00:40:30,220 --> 00:40:36,970 Um, particularly in terms of I like to know who the character should be at the end of each instalment, 469 00:40:36,970 --> 00:40:39,340 so that I know that I can push her towards that point, 470 00:40:39,610 --> 00:40:45,280 but I definitely let Paige dictate how exactly she gets there, and she has strong feelings about it at this point. 471 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:50,020 Um, do you have any thoughts on the second part of the question? 472 00:40:50,140 --> 00:40:54,070 I feel like as an editor, maybe, I suppose, um. 473 00:40:54,220 --> 00:41:05,530 Oh, sorry. Oh, my last one. Um, I suppose I think every, every book is really different, and some books will really benefit from that scaffold. 474 00:41:06,010 --> 00:41:08,350 But I love the idea of a quickening. 475 00:41:08,650 --> 00:41:13,510 I love the idea that you're sort of pregnant with all these characters and stories, and that's the first moment that they make themselves. 476 00:41:13,510 --> 00:41:18,489 And I suppose when a character quickens, um, and it goes against the scaffold, 477 00:41:18,490 --> 00:41:26,800 you should be prepared to move away from it if you use it as a, if it's a useful, um, stabiliser for you to get started, then that's great. 478 00:41:27,070 --> 00:41:31,660 But it shouldn't end up being a cage that you have to work within. 479 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,950 That's how I feel. I think you can tell when that happens. I think that's it. 480 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,570 Sorry, everyone. Um, but mostly thank you, Samantha, because that was brilliant. 481 00:41:40,720 --> 00:41:41,140 Thanks.