1 00:00:02,210 --> 00:00:06,350 Okay. So I start recording now. Um, so. 2 00:00:07,340 --> 00:00:16,160 Well, I guess. Good afternoon. My name is Giovanni Palafox, and we're now recording for the Future of Cooking podcast at the University of Oxford. 3 00:00:18,650 --> 00:00:22,310 First of all, I'm going to introduce myself and won't be brief paragraphs. 4 00:00:22,580 --> 00:00:28,729 So I'm a research associate at the Future of Cooling, where I work in work package number four, 5 00:00:28,730 --> 00:00:31,790 which is on sustainable, sustainable cooling production networks. 6 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:40,219 We are researching the food's lifecycle recruiting appliances to better understand how these technologies that we use for cooling can be designed, 7 00:00:40,220 --> 00:00:45,050 produced, used and processed at the end of life for maximum sustainability. 8 00:00:45,710 --> 00:00:51,020 And this approach is basically developed under the circular economy paradigm. 9 00:00:51,530 --> 00:01:00,200 And so such an economy would reduce waste from cooling and improve its access to everybody and contribute to carbon neutrality. 10 00:01:01,010 --> 00:01:05,780 And today we have a very special guest, and her name is Tina Brindley, 11 00:01:06,860 --> 00:01:11,749 and she's an international professional with over 20 years of experience in policy 12 00:01:11,750 --> 00:01:17,150 analysis and implementation and sustainable development related issues and management. 13 00:01:18,410 --> 00:01:23,420 During her career, she has served us as the the Minister for Environment, 14 00:01:23,420 --> 00:01:31,510 Energy and Climate Change for Greece and the Greece Ambassador to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, OCD. 15 00:01:32,330 --> 00:01:40,130 And she's been also an Executive Secretary of the Vienna Convention for the Protection of the Ozone Layer, the UN, the Montreal Protocol. 16 00:01:41,030 --> 00:01:50,390 And finally right now, Tina is currently the Deputy Executive Secretary of the United Nations Convention to Combat Desertification. 17 00:01:51,590 --> 00:01:59,210 So in all of her roles, Tina's diplomatic skills, solid scientific knowledge and strategic thinking have been a catalyst for innovation and results. 18 00:01:59,420 --> 00:02:00,200 In particular, 19 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:09,110 she has headed the Oceans Secretariat during the long and sensitive negotiations that created the Kigali Amendment to the Montreal Protocol, 20 00:02:10,310 --> 00:02:13,550 which is hailed as one of the most important climate agreements in history. 21 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:19,610 So welcome, Tina, and it's a pleasure to have you. Thank you so much. 22 00:02:19,610 --> 00:02:23,360 It's a pleasure to be here and very honoured to be here with you, Giovanni. 23 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:25,040 Thank you. Thank you. 24 00:02:26,060 --> 00:02:35,540 So after some brief introductions now, we should proceed to your interview so we can ask you a few questions and three main themes. 25 00:02:35,540 --> 00:02:43,820 So we should crack on that. So, first of all, so based on your experience in multilateral agreements, 26 00:02:44,330 --> 00:02:53,510 how difficult do you think it is to bring together so many countries to an agreement such as the Montreal Protocol so that it benefits all the parts? 27 00:02:55,890 --> 00:03:04,799 Thank you, Giovanni. And really, I will start by saying that the United Nations is strong because it has an amazing 28 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:12,240 convening power and the United Nations is nothing more but an honest broker. 29 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:23,450 Where it provides a space where countries can come with different opinions, different positions, negotiate and discuss. 30 00:03:24,470 --> 00:03:28,190 And where they want to solve the challenges that they face. 31 00:03:28,190 --> 00:03:31,910 International countries, international settings. 32 00:03:32,920 --> 00:03:40,780 So once you try to unravel and solve the specific challenges, then consensus arrived. 33 00:03:40,780 --> 00:03:54,350 That consensus is being achieved. So I, I do think that the more countries see the benefits of their consensus of the result of the discussions, 34 00:03:55,100 --> 00:04:03,440 the more committed they are and the more willing they are to join the discussions, the negotiations and the agreement. 35 00:04:04,610 --> 00:04:13,790 And if you ask me, what is the thrust of the success and coming back to to the Montreal Protocol, I would say two things. 36 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:21,380 First, the interaction between science, a very solid science policy and diplomacy. 37 00:04:22,190 --> 00:04:27,860 And second, the fact that this protocol doesn't say to the countries, don't do that. 38 00:04:28,070 --> 00:04:33,410 You're not allowed to do that. It provided another option of doing it. 39 00:04:33,950 --> 00:04:41,870 So and it provided also the support and the assistance for the countries to be able to deliver on what has been agreed at the Montreal Protocol. 40 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:48,430 Okay. So that's Salisbury. And so it's what you mean, like making explicit benefits to everybody. 41 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,170 That could be critical. Exactly. That's good. 42 00:04:53,380 --> 00:05:01,720 Thank you. So next question is, what are the general strengths and weaknesses of this type of multilateral approaches? 43 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:06,670 And are there any more or less appropriate for different types of challenges? 44 00:05:08,980 --> 00:05:17,110 Yes. I think, as I said before, I think the United Nation offers the space of having countries coming together. 45 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:29,470 And the similarities of these conventions, of these multilateral environmental agreements is that they focus on one specific theme. 46 00:05:29,530 --> 00:05:40,240 Now, one thing may be a very, very big theme, but still, most of the times they are approaching the issue more thematically. 47 00:05:41,550 --> 00:05:52,500 I this is the strength because it allows countries to discuss and it allows governments to put forward their own national positions. 48 00:05:53,370 --> 00:05:56,430 But on the other hand, it reflects a weakness. 49 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:02,530 A weakness of how our own governments are being formed at a national level 50 00:06:02,530 --> 00:06:08,320 where you have the different sectors and these of course is being scaled up. 51 00:06:08,650 --> 00:06:13,030 I think the national discussions at the international level. 52 00:06:14,300 --> 00:06:20,600 So I believe that the strength and the weakness are the two sides of the same coin. 53 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:27,229 The international the multilateral environmental agreements offer a possibility 54 00:06:27,230 --> 00:06:32,120 of harmonising the different policies that are going to be implemented by many, 55 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:36,890 many countries. And the more countries implement, the better the result will be. 56 00:06:37,910 --> 00:06:44,210 But of course, how do you achieve this? Harmonisation is also a big challenge. 57 00:06:44,930 --> 00:06:54,290 And to wrap up, I think that the Montreal Protocol going back to the Montreal Protocol, had universal membership and it still has. 58 00:06:54,300 --> 00:06:59,480 So you have 198 parties. This is a very big strength of the protocol. 59 00:07:00,230 --> 00:07:09,200 You have a very solid science that advises that the countries that guides countries to take the decisions upon facts and figures. 60 00:07:09,770 --> 00:07:17,000 And then you have a funding mechanism which assist parties in delivering on their commitments. 61 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:27,030 So these are their strengths. And the challenge for me is the way our minds work, the mindset of how you bring everything together. 62 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:34,850 So when you go back to your country and you have what you have from the Montreal Protocol, how do you link that to other agendas? 63 00:07:34,860 --> 00:07:38,580 How do you link it to climate change? How do you link it to the circular economy? 64 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:45,179 How do we get to the energy efficiency? And I think this is where the challenge lies. 65 00:07:45,180 --> 00:07:49,680 And it's, I think, a challenge of our mindset and of our institutions. 66 00:07:51,310 --> 00:07:54,370 That's very, very insightful comments. 67 00:07:54,370 --> 00:08:01,419 Thank you. So could you tell us what's meaning to us, this option of this question later? 68 00:08:01,420 --> 00:08:09,220 But I think it's very appropriate now. So could you tell us briefly about your work under the Vienna Convention and Ocean Protection? 69 00:08:11,490 --> 00:08:21,569 Yeah. Well, I can tell you with one possibly phrase that it has been the most rewarding part of my career now and of my life, because I think, 70 00:08:21,570 --> 00:08:30,719 you know, it's a very bearing sort of divide between what is personal and what is professional in the way that you're doing. 71 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:35,370 Your work is personal. And I think it showed for me, 72 00:08:35,370 --> 00:08:47,370 it was always every day a sort of a gratitude of what I was doing and sort of an injection of optimism in whatever I was doing and passion. 73 00:08:47,430 --> 00:08:54,209 So I think the sort of gratitude that you have, all these countries coming together and whatever you decide, 74 00:08:54,210 --> 00:08:59,430 it affects the lives of people that that living in those countries. 75 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:04,649 And then the passion and the commitment and this sense of of a family, 76 00:09:04,650 --> 00:09:10,830 of a community that has that common goal has been one of the most rewarding experiences that I had in my life. 77 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,220 Well, that's very good to hear. Thank you. 78 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:27,240 So what do you think can in your opinion, which are the policy mechanisms could could achieve help or help us achieve the global temperature targets? 79 00:09:30,460 --> 00:09:37,600 As I said, I think I have alluded to the way that I would like to respond to this question earlier on by saying 80 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:46,719 that it is not about how many more mechanisms we have or what different types of mechanisms we have. 81 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:52,520 I think we have a lot. It is about how we bring everything together. 82 00:09:53,660 --> 00:09:58,370 It is about how we have this sort of revolution in our minds. 83 00:09:58,370 --> 00:10:02,750 An intellectual revolution. A shift in minds, a shift in education. 84 00:10:03,770 --> 00:10:07,670 How do you bring the difference? How do you go? 85 00:10:08,060 --> 00:10:11,540 Apart from sectors beyond sectors, you don't have the energy sector. 86 00:10:11,550 --> 00:10:15,140 You have an energy system, you don't have the food sector. You have a food system. 87 00:10:15,620 --> 00:10:20,110 And the food system has inputs and outputs and interfaces with all of the other systems. 88 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:27,560 So I think for me, it's not the question of how more and what more, but how we bring everything together. 89 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:33,480 And if I have one more minute. Giovanni, I want to make an intro. 90 00:10:33,530 --> 00:10:42,290 We have had experience in the past of an incredible cooperation and incredible synergy that happened between the UN F, 91 00:10:42,290 --> 00:10:51,260 triple C, which is the climate convention and the Montreal Protocol, where we are discussing exactly the amendment of Kigali. 92 00:10:52,310 --> 00:10:54,500 Because basically what has happened, 93 00:10:55,100 --> 00:11:04,610 we took one group of chemicals that was part of the climate convention mandate and we brought it under the Montreal Protocol. 94 00:11:05,030 --> 00:11:09,260 And this has never been done before in the history of the United Nations. 95 00:11:09,860 --> 00:11:19,880 And it shows that when governments see the opportunities and when the governments understand what policy mechanisms can deliver better for them, 96 00:11:20,510 --> 00:11:23,900 then they make it. They make it happen. 97 00:11:24,500 --> 00:11:35,090 So this is an example of a coordination cooperation between different policy mechanisms that exist, and each one of them has its own role. 98 00:11:36,330 --> 00:11:44,100 That's great. So about that. Do you think there was a specific trigger that that that helped to the declaration? 99 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:49,710 So what what brought like bringing one chemical thing to point to a different agreement. 100 00:11:50,820 --> 00:12:02,940 The trigger was the trigger was that the Montreal Protocol has been working very well within the refrigeration and air conditioning systems, 101 00:12:03,540 --> 00:12:14,879 and the parties saw that this was an opportunity to ensure that they have a climate change mitigation strategy through the protocol, 102 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:26,610 through the Montreal Protocol. However, using all the benefits and the the specifications, the modalities of the protocol itself. 103 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:38,399 So if the parties would regulate and would commit to phased down schedules for HFCS, then they would have only the benefits of the Montreal Protocol, 104 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:44,430 like funding, capacity development assistance in the transition from one chemical to another. 105 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:54,630 So they saw the opportunity and they saw that there was a gap there and underneath need that everything was win, win and they moved ahead. 106 00:12:56,090 --> 00:12:59,210 That's brilliant. And they saw that that benefit straight away. 107 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:06,650 So I was meaning to ask before you just mentioned that it's not only about bringing in what else needs to be done. 108 00:13:07,430 --> 00:13:13,400 It's not a question of what are the policy agreements or what else, but a combination of things. 109 00:13:14,030 --> 00:13:21,500 So you saying it's a combination of having our mind open to see where the opportunities are 110 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:29,090 and whether one opportunity provides a solution for a challenge in another convention. 111 00:13:30,020 --> 00:13:37,009 And I think it's this and it's this sort of also need to maximise the benefits 112 00:13:37,010 --> 00:13:41,419 that you have from existing treaties and conventions that have been working very, 113 00:13:41,420 --> 00:13:42,050 very well. 114 00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:54,020 And I think this has been one of the issues that gave a different momentum to the Montreal Protocol when the HFCS were incorporated into the protocol, 115 00:13:54,350 --> 00:14:00,680 not because they were threatening the ozone layer, but because they were threatening climate change. 116 00:14:01,690 --> 00:14:07,150 Yes. That that's exactly what what it was trying to achieve. 117 00:14:07,730 --> 00:14:16,959 So taking on to that question, I mean, I know you've already said like what are the lessons learnt or or what else do we do? 118 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:21,490 We need to know from this type of, of agreement, specifically the Kigali amendment, 119 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:26,980 to what do you think in the future could help in the negotiation aspect? 120 00:14:29,770 --> 00:14:34,870 If I summarise what we're very where we keep going, I would say. 121 00:14:36,910 --> 00:14:45,520 Possibly seven points. Let me see if I count them correctly, but let me try to be more specific. 122 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:50,680 I think the first one is that science has a critical role to play. 123 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:58,190 Mm hmm. So science saw the were scientific projections for climate change mitigation. 124 00:14:58,700 --> 00:15:04,460 If you are facing down each of these. So science was the first point for sure. 125 00:15:05,870 --> 00:15:10,759 The second one is the negotiations were very difficult. 126 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:17,749 So we need to set very realistic and tangible objectives like steppingstones to the 127 00:15:17,750 --> 00:15:25,360 overall objective of having the age of six being incorporated into the protocol. 128 00:15:26,060 --> 00:15:33,230 So these are the realistic and tangible objectives I think is also an important part of the negotiation process. 129 00:15:34,340 --> 00:15:40,970 The third is that when countries negotiate, they don't want to be difficult. 130 00:15:41,060 --> 00:15:50,540 They want simply to bring forward the challenges that they have in implementation or in convincing their national, 131 00:15:51,170 --> 00:15:55,790 their national, their citizens that this is a good way forward. 132 00:15:56,570 --> 00:16:08,280 So trying to find solutions to the specific problems that the countries have before you negotiate the actual text is a very important part. 133 00:16:09,740 --> 00:16:18,920 I think the fourth one is that you could possibly combine the formal discussions of 134 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:24,290 the United Nations with informal discussions that can happen into different fora, 135 00:16:24,290 --> 00:16:34,970 into different workshops, where you try to really have a more open and frank discussion about the real challenges that are happening on the ground. 136 00:16:36,450 --> 00:16:48,930 The Fifth could be that. The Montreal Protocol has a very integrated sense of fairness because of the funding facility that it has. 137 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:55,470 So you just provide support to the countries to deliver on what they have agreed. 138 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:03,809 And then possibly the the fact that you in in the discussions throughout the Kigali amendment, 139 00:17:03,810 --> 00:17:08,370 throughout the HFC discussions we also had are private sector. 140 00:17:09,210 --> 00:17:16,320 The industries were quite involved in their own way in parallel discussions with industries from developing countries. 141 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:24,030 So they were also aware of the challenges that industries in developing countries were facing. 142 00:17:24,510 --> 00:17:37,350 And finally, as I said, the objection of the injection of optimism and this sense of pride and ownership of the process was also very important. 143 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:42,990 Yes. That's brilliant. Very brilliant way to summarise all the points. 144 00:17:43,020 --> 00:17:47,729 Thank you. So I was just thinking that from a point of view. 145 00:17:47,730 --> 00:17:54,810 So we look at the production photo pooling appliances from a very mix of of perspectives. 146 00:17:55,320 --> 00:18:00,700 So we look at the engineering side, but we also look at the political economy in each countries. 147 00:18:00,770 --> 00:18:02,040 And and of course, 148 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:10,200 the international agreements such as Kigali influences a lot now that the the current and the future production of cooling appliances. 149 00:18:10,830 --> 00:18:18,480 So I was just wondering, do you think that the Kigali amendment should bring in stronger perspectives on the circular economy? 150 00:18:18,810 --> 00:18:23,520 So what I mean by that is that they also account for coolants as well as machines. 151 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,150 And do you think another agreement is necessary? 152 00:18:31,050 --> 00:18:39,210 I think the Kigali amendment did that in the way that when you when we when we were discussing the 153 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:46,320 agencies and how these were incorporated or whether they would be incorporated in the Montreal Protocol, 154 00:18:47,580 --> 00:18:51,190 there were many countries that brought forward the issue of energy efficiency. 155 00:18:52,650 --> 00:19:01,139 And many countries said you shouldn't look only at having a low global warming potential refrigerants refrigerant, 156 00:19:01,140 --> 00:19:05,190 which is more protective of climate and ozone. 157 00:19:05,940 --> 00:19:13,020 But you need to think of other considerations because this may matter more for climate change mitigation. 158 00:19:13,230 --> 00:19:23,260 So energy efficiency was one of these parameters. So the discussion when do you go to climate change considerations is always shifting 159 00:19:23,830 --> 00:19:31,840 from the product or the refrigerant to assist them a more systemic approach. 160 00:19:32,810 --> 00:19:36,290 So I think Montreal Protocol managed to do that. 161 00:19:37,250 --> 00:19:45,229 This is an ongoing discussion still how we incorporate if the parties decide to incorporate energy 162 00:19:45,230 --> 00:19:53,330 efficiency in the in in throughout the chain of the Montreal Protocol activities and phases. 163 00:19:54,050 --> 00:20:03,440 But I think the linkages is there not so not so deep, not so strong, but the linkage is there. 164 00:20:05,380 --> 00:20:14,970 I totally agree with what you said about looking at the entire systems and not looking only at refrigerants and then protecting the ozone layer. 165 00:20:14,980 --> 00:20:18,790 So that's exactly what we're trying to do with the global production network. 166 00:20:18,790 --> 00:20:27,220 So looking at the and the process from the design stage, the extraction resources, the use up until the disposal of waste. 167 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:38,799 And as you said, it's very, very well known that the for cooling appliances, the energy use of face is the one that that requires a lot of energy. 168 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:42,700 And a lot of this energy is comes from non-renewable resources. 169 00:20:43,570 --> 00:20:52,180 And here I do think this is exactly the the institution and also in the in the revolution that we were talking before, 170 00:20:52,630 --> 00:21:03,640 I mean, how we we go from the the linear economy that we have now and from this mentality of taking, 171 00:21:03,820 --> 00:21:15,790 making and wasting to how we consume, how we produce, we consume, and whatever we consume is feeding back into the same system. 172 00:21:16,390 --> 00:21:21,610 And this needs, of course, a change in the design, a change in the business model. 173 00:21:21,970 --> 00:21:29,020 It also needs to assist consumers to behave like that because they don't want to have a problem thinking, 174 00:21:29,020 --> 00:21:32,709 Oh, now what am I going to do with my iPhone or my phone? 175 00:21:32,710 --> 00:21:41,080 What am I going to do? You need to provide them the solutions and easy solutions for them to have it within their lives will be the same. 176 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:49,570 You know, if it is easy to go and buy something, it should be very easy to dispose it correctly. 177 00:21:50,020 --> 00:21:55,660 And I think this is where we need to shift our effort. 178 00:21:56,590 --> 00:21:57,729 Yes, and I agree with that. 179 00:21:57,730 --> 00:22:07,210 And I also think that consumers should be should become as they become more aware of these solutions, they begin demanding them as well. 180 00:22:07,570 --> 00:22:13,030 So it's like a bilateral way of changing things. 181 00:22:13,030 --> 00:22:19,150 So when consumers are demanding things and when companies are providing them to raising awareness. 182 00:22:20,690 --> 00:22:27,080 So that's that's great. And so I think to find a lot of discussion about circular economy. 183 00:22:27,740 --> 00:22:35,780 So do you think in the future that circular economy principles should be considered in policy making for climate agreements? 184 00:22:38,750 --> 00:22:52,220 Oh, absolutely. I think if we see them, our target of 1.5 degree abstentions increased, then we think that, you know, 185 00:22:52,700 --> 00:23:02,210 if I'm if I'm having the numbers correctly, approximately 50% or 55% of these reductions are coming from energy and transport. 186 00:23:03,260 --> 00:23:08,650 Then 45% comes from different production uses and land uses. 187 00:23:09,550 --> 00:23:18,940 So the circular economy sits exactly in the second part, the way that we produce, the way that we consume, in the way that we use our land. 188 00:23:19,750 --> 00:23:25,330 I think it's very important in, in, in, in whatever we are doing from now on. 189 00:23:26,110 --> 00:23:32,050 A it as I said, it will be difficult to change your mindsets, to change our institutions. 190 00:23:32,530 --> 00:23:40,899 But there is a lot of work that is being done, a lot of work that is being done by scientific institutions and organisations that could assist 191 00:23:40,900 --> 00:23:46,660 countries in in thinking that national in designing their national policies differently. 192 00:23:46,660 --> 00:23:51,430 And of course, this will be reflected in international agreements as well. 193 00:23:52,980 --> 00:23:59,879 Great. Thank you. And I think that land use is a very important part in the circular economy. 194 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:06,070 So one of the main objectives, as we both know, as changing the resources and trying to keep them in, 195 00:24:06,070 --> 00:24:15,110 not ideally in a perpetual loop, so that that will mean extracting less of any resource that needed. 196 00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:21,390 So and that's actually a great transition to tell a section about your current work. 197 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:30,630 So what you're doing right now with desertification, so and so, drawing on your current experiences in combating desertification, 198 00:24:31,380 --> 00:24:38,550 I think that presumably climate change is the primary connexion between the increasing cooling demand and desertification. 199 00:24:38,550 --> 00:24:48,360 But do you think there are others? I think it's an indirect link when we talk about the certification. 200 00:24:49,230 --> 00:24:57,210 Certification is basically land degradation that appears in areas where you don't have much water. 201 00:24:57,870 --> 00:25:00,330 So when you have in dry lands. 202 00:25:01,980 --> 00:25:12,900 And in land degradation basically is when you have the land and you take out of the land, its productivity and you take out of the land, 203 00:25:13,260 --> 00:25:25,590 our ability to have good food, to have to water supply, a clean water supply, to have fibre for the clothes that we are wearing. 204 00:25:26,820 --> 00:25:39,750 So again, it's it's a loop. And I think the most important part there is, since you have different needs, different human needs competing for land, 205 00:25:40,770 --> 00:25:51,480 how do you do you move from managing your land to planning for all these different needs with circular economy principles also in your mind? 206 00:25:53,100 --> 00:26:03,720 And I think again, this is where the big challenge and the big opportunity is as we are also moving into this UN decade of ecosystem restoration, 207 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,920 which is from now from 2022 to 2030. 208 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:15,270 And of course the healthier the land is, the more carbon the soil can absorb, 209 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:20,730 the less climate warming you have because you have a lot of climate change mitigation potential. 210 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:29,090 Yes, I think so. As you said rightly point that there is there is a connexion between everything. 211 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:34,020 So. I'm just thinking that, for example, as of the killing, 212 00:26:34,020 --> 00:26:43,650 demand is expected to increase exponentially in the next few years with with hot countries becoming hotter, 213 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:49,020 and especially countries like with big populations like China and India, 214 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:55,590 which are starting to become to the middle class more, they can afford more of this unit. 215 00:26:55,590 --> 00:27:03,060 So it's very challenging and and is something that we need to to tackle in conjunction. 216 00:27:03,540 --> 00:27:10,739 And I think their job I mean, the main issue is not so much not so much on the land degradation, 217 00:27:10,740 --> 00:27:20,910 but on the positive side when you talk about land restoration and we will be talking about land restoration in this decade of ecosystem restoration, 218 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:30,540 when you talk about land restoration, there are there are four different basically systems I'm not going to say ecosystems, but systems that are. 219 00:27:31,930 --> 00:27:35,870 That big come together. But you need to see very well the interface. 220 00:27:35,890 --> 00:27:45,810 One is the cities. And how cities will evolve rapidly, as you've said, how you know, how the middle class will be raised, 221 00:27:45,820 --> 00:27:54,180 that the demand on the cooling appliances, but also how cities will evolve after the pandemic that we had. 222 00:27:54,840 --> 00:28:03,360 Are people going to stay in the cities? Are they going to go a bit more rural and be able to telework from where they are? 223 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:12,840 So what is the city's system? The second one is these rural and actually the urban rural, which is very close to the cities. 224 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,290 But it's not cities. It's not it's not farmland. 225 00:28:16,950 --> 00:28:20,220 So what do you do with the land there? 226 00:28:21,390 --> 00:28:25,770 In the interface between city and Mountain City environment. 227 00:28:26,670 --> 00:28:32,580 Then you have the agricultural landscapes, and then you have the natural ecosystems that you would like to preserve. 228 00:28:34,230 --> 00:28:45,120 And the more I think the more people can work from afar, the more basically we may have even more pressure on these natural ecosystems. 229 00:28:45,750 --> 00:28:57,270 So everything again is linked into a nexus of all these different land uses the different land users and how you. 230 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:05,990 You care for land and how you become a land steward is a very important part and a very important challenge. 231 00:29:05,990 --> 00:29:14,370 But we don't know how it really will end up. That's that's actually I mean being credibly interesting question. 232 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:20,820 And I was just wondering because you said if people will walking from far away from cities. 233 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:27,659 You know, I think probably the suburban landscape might change and and people working from rural areas. 234 00:29:27,660 --> 00:29:33,540 So you think in that case, like the hinterlands of a city will will expand. 235 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:42,420 Yeah. And possibly, you know, you may not have so much cooling demand in the in the places where you work, 236 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,110 but you may have a lot of cooling demand in your buildings, in your houses. 237 00:29:46,110 --> 00:29:51,030 And how do you do you prepare for things? And then again, it has to be a system. 238 00:29:52,140 --> 00:29:57,510 For example, I'm working in a very in a very nice office. 239 00:29:58,980 --> 00:29:59,550 But then. 240 00:30:01,050 --> 00:30:08,610 When I work from home, I don't have the possibility to control of the cooling appliance that I have in the office and to turn it off, basically. 241 00:30:09,060 --> 00:30:13,260 So these are all challenges that we need to really think there are. 242 00:30:13,500 --> 00:30:21,840 Some of them are easy solutions that because we have been taken for granted our different comfort zones, we don't want to. 243 00:30:23,060 --> 00:30:32,600 We don't want to go an extra step of thinking. So there will be changes and that we need to see the land restoration with all these 244 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:38,089 different entry points and these different challenges that we have and cooling, 245 00:30:38,090 --> 00:30:41,210 definitely the demand for cooling is is one of them. 246 00:30:42,460 --> 00:30:43,210 Right? Yes. 247 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:53,709 And also, as you said, when when working from rural spaces and not having to use the air conditioner in your office, it's a great alternative. 248 00:30:53,710 --> 00:30:59,260 So if you are surrounded by green areas, which would call passive cooling area. 249 00:30:59,590 --> 00:31:06,280 Yeah, yeah. It could change things very significantly for energy demand. 250 00:31:06,820 --> 00:31:17,320 But but I also feel and I think we need to be also very pragmatic and very vigilant when we discuss about these things, 251 00:31:17,740 --> 00:31:27,399 on how these can be interpreted and transferred to a developing country where the where the demands 252 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:32,790 are different and the needs are different and the expectations of people are completely different. 253 00:31:33,310 --> 00:31:40,510 So I think we we need to start thinking of solutions that can be not a solution that fits all circumstances, 254 00:31:40,510 --> 00:31:47,589 but solutions that meet different needs and different, different circumstances. 255 00:31:47,590 --> 00:31:53,500 We need to have always options. We need we need to have policy options that we offer. 256 00:31:54,220 --> 00:32:01,730 And a single solution need to be adaptable and really consider different contexts of of 257 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:08,380 environment and different climates for regions and countries and behaviours of people as well. 258 00:32:10,180 --> 00:32:16,180 One that's great. You've probably already said many of these. 259 00:32:16,180 --> 00:32:25,090 But one final question. What do you think of the take away message for combating from combating desertification, for sustainable cooling? 260 00:32:25,330 --> 00:32:30,490 Do you have anything to add? I know we've discussed plenty already, but there is anything else. 261 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:44,560 I would say I would summarise what we've said by the following, that if we want to have healthy land, we must have healthy people. 262 00:32:45,460 --> 00:32:55,450 And if we want to have healthy people, we need to have two very, very specific value chains that are not interrupted. 263 00:32:56,110 --> 00:33:01,720 One is the medical value chain and the other one is the food chain. 264 00:33:02,890 --> 00:33:12,040 And both of them are based on cold chains, are based on our ability to cool our medicines, 265 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:19,940 to cool our vaccines, to cool our food that is transported from the for the farmland to the market. 266 00:33:20,590 --> 00:33:27,420 So cooling is everywhere is the basis of whatever we do over every single activity. 267 00:33:28,500 --> 00:33:31,230 So I want to see cooling as a connector. 268 00:33:32,130 --> 00:33:41,820 As a connector, even from the different systems of land that we were discussing previously cities, rural areas, farmlands and natural ecosystems. 269 00:33:43,220 --> 00:33:51,200 And that's, that's very insightful. Yes, we have realised that sometimes cooling is not very well acknowledged. 270 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,209 It's like one of those underrated areas, 271 00:33:53,210 --> 00:33:59,780 but it's extremely important for human activities and it has been really tested during this pandemic situation. 272 00:34:00,950 --> 00:34:10,489 But yeah, well if there is something else, what I think that's been very insightful discussion, very interesting perspectives. 273 00:34:10,490 --> 00:34:18,650 Steve and I want to thank you very, very deeply for your valuable time and unique contribution and and your insights. 274 00:34:19,730 --> 00:34:25,459 And thank you very much for the work that you have been doing in the university. 275 00:34:25,460 --> 00:34:30,020 And I really feel that there are many lessons for policymakers, 276 00:34:30,020 --> 00:34:38,179 both at national and international level, and I look forward to listening to any updates of your work. 277 00:34:38,180 --> 00:34:46,790 Thank you so much. Thank you very much, Tina. And thank you for your work as well, which has been very critical for for international agreement. 278 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:55,190 So we have reached the end of our discussion, but we are again looking forward to discussing other issues related to cooling in the future. 279 00:34:55,760 --> 00:35:00,290 So thank you very much again, Tina, and hope to see you again. 280 00:35:01,010 --> 00:35:03,410 Thank you. Bye bye.