1 00:00:00,060 --> 00:00:04,920 I'm the winner. And as Callum's already described, I'm I did. 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:08,340 I was here to do my Masters few years ago now. 3 00:00:08,820 --> 00:00:12,160 I'm currently doing my doctoral research, Royal Holloway. 4 00:00:12,780 --> 00:00:20,100 But the research that I'm primarily going to be discussing today is with my collaboration with Prisoners Education Trust, 5 00:00:21,270 --> 00:00:30,540 which are an organisation and the charity that supports learners in prison and through through policy influencing and increasingly research, 6 00:00:30,540 --> 00:00:39,930 but primarily through giving grants for distance learning. And yes, so it's getting a little bit of an overview. 7 00:00:41,310 --> 00:00:47,640 I understand that I might be coming at this from a slightly different angle from how we've been talking about vulnerability 8 00:00:48,270 --> 00:00:54,330 and various other and resilience and all of the factors of mental health and wellbeing that we've been talking about today. 9 00:00:54,910 --> 00:00:58,090 And I'm kind of there's two elements to my presentation. 10 00:00:58,140 --> 00:01:06,570 Firstly, I'm kind of seeking a discussion for how we can bring together ideas of wellbeing 11 00:01:06,570 --> 00:01:12,030 and education and other supportive and mental health implications as well, 12 00:01:12,330 --> 00:01:17,010 and in a way that I don't have the answers for. So that's definitely a discussion that I'd like to come from you. 13 00:01:17,490 --> 00:01:25,500 And then I'm also going to be talking about projects that we were doing with Prisoners Education, Trust, alongside the University of Cambridge, 14 00:01:26,130 --> 00:01:35,820 which used a concept of learning culture and developing learner agency and co-production with staff to engage the hard to reach. 15 00:01:36,030 --> 00:01:40,379 And this is a model that I think that probably will be able to see some connections with in a 16 00:01:40,380 --> 00:01:45,340 lot of the engagement issues that we might be seeing in other areas around criminal justice and. 17 00:01:48,530 --> 00:01:51,690 Yes. It's just going to get complicated, isn't it? 18 00:01:52,570 --> 00:02:02,700 So, so very, very briefly, education provision in prison for those who may not know much about it at the moment, 19 00:02:02,700 --> 00:02:09,839 and I'm very much saying at the moment, because it may be about to be completely flipped on its head in a few days and which I'll get to the bottom. 20 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:14,489 But it's currently led, it's privatised by the centre, not a good skill service. 21 00:02:14,490 --> 00:02:19,800 They hold contracts with different providers that run it in each prison. 22 00:02:20,190 --> 00:02:32,400 And very, very briefly, the skills something agency holds, the the money, the purse strings and 80% of the funding is targeted at the low GCSE level. 23 00:02:32,850 --> 00:02:37,110 And that does largely speak to some of the needs that we do see the educational needs in prison. 24 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:40,440 But there's literacy and numeracy. 25 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:49,050 Basic, healthy, really, really strong focus on that can be very exclusionary to those that don't fit within this idea of needs. 26 00:02:49,830 --> 00:02:58,590 Those are higher and have higher education aspirations and but also those that aren't looking to do literacy or CRT. 27 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:03,720 And so I'm going to talk a little bit in a moment about options for learning outside of class. 28 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:12,030 But just very briefly, if you aren't aware of the case review, which is an ongoing review into education in prison at the moment, 29 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:18,839 they're going to be they're going to be releasing that report very, 30 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:23,549 very soon, like in a couple of weeks, I believe, which is looking at ways that we can really, 31 00:03:23,550 --> 00:03:28,890 really broaden and widen access to education in prisons and provision. 32 00:03:29,370 --> 00:03:36,510 And it fits very much, I think, with the autonomy, governance and autonomy that's happening with prisons and at the moment. 33 00:03:39,430 --> 00:03:47,260 Okay. So again, very, very briefly and this is quite simplistic conception, so don't attack too much. 34 00:03:47,530 --> 00:03:50,620 But when we talk about the purpose of education in prison, 35 00:03:50,620 --> 00:03:55,300 which is fundamental because it defines everything that we're trying to do when we're in there, 36 00:03:55,330 --> 00:04:00,730 what we want to see outside there are believe there are some post-release tensions. 37 00:04:01,420 --> 00:04:05,079 On the one hand, we have policy provision that still largely, 38 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:12,280 like many other things in the criminal justice system, looks at the reduction of reoffending as a conception. 39 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:19,150 And of course, there are many benefits to this. But my argument is that by looking at reducing re-offending much, 40 00:04:19,330 --> 00:04:27,309 we are working towards personal deficits and looking at educational needs and this narrow conception of employability, 41 00:04:27,310 --> 00:04:34,330 which I referred to in a moment. And also it really risks individualising and responsibility for offending behaviour and removing the 42 00:04:34,330 --> 00:04:43,209 structures around why somebody may find themselves in that situation educationally being failed by schools, 43 00:04:43,210 --> 00:04:50,920 etc. And I contrast this to concepts that that leans a bit more closely with conceptions of the systems. 44 00:04:51,190 --> 00:04:56,020 So instead of looking at personal deficits, we can be looking at building strength, the asset based model. 45 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:01,000 Instead of looking at educational needs, we can be looking at educational aspirations. 46 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:08,980 And and this Hopkins research recently has demonstrated that by only 11% of people in prison that states that learning is not for me. 47 00:05:09,250 --> 00:05:14,800 So therefore we've got up to 90% of people that want to be potentially maybe engaged in education. 48 00:05:14,810 --> 00:05:16,060 So that's interesting. 49 00:05:16,450 --> 00:05:23,950 And we're also looking at towards a wider conception of employability, looking at vocations, looking for what people want to be doing careers. 50 00:05:25,150 --> 00:05:29,350 And also, we need to be understanding the learner identity in prison. 51 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:30,860 Okay. 52 00:05:31,970 --> 00:05:38,900 So to explain a little bit more about prisoners education, trust, and despite having said that, I'm not going to talk about reducing your funding. 53 00:05:39,170 --> 00:05:52,499 And we do. It is is everybody or is anybody aware of the Ministry of Justice data lab service say this is so and in 2013 I think it was 54 00:05:52,500 --> 00:05:59,840 the Ministry of Justice put out this analytical service for third sector organisations that work with people in prison. 55 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:08,810 And what you can do is essentially submit your data for people that you've worked with and they were able to do the job, 56 00:06:08,810 --> 00:06:16,760 match analysis with the police, national computer and see for two years post one year post reoffending rates. 57 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:22,310 So essentially it was trying to match is trying to be able to see if you have any impact on funding rates. 58 00:06:23,540 --> 00:06:31,600 So we have a really large sample because we've been giving grants to people about 29,050 thousand. 59 00:06:31,610 --> 00:06:35,930 The match control group, we were able to match the attrition rate when you took it down to 200,000. 60 00:06:36,170 --> 00:06:39,290 But what we found and unlike many other charities, 61 00:06:39,290 --> 00:06:45,619 but this is largely because one of the issues with this is the big numbers that were required, which we had, but a lot didn't. 62 00:06:45,620 --> 00:06:51,469 But we found that the those that did receive a grant from the Business Education 63 00:06:51,470 --> 00:06:55,880 Trust seemed to have about a quarter reduction in their funding post-release. 64 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,420 And I'll come back to why that's interesting in a moment, 65 00:06:59,420 --> 00:07:07,100 because we have these mechanisms of why we believe education may be relevant for the systems very simplistically, 66 00:07:07,100 --> 00:07:10,940 which is what the reducing reoffending concept brings in, 67 00:07:11,330 --> 00:07:15,440 is the simplistic employment model that we develop somebody's skills and knowledge, 68 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:19,610 potentially their qualifications, they'll go and get employed and then stop re-offending. 69 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:28,549 But we're thinking about maybe it's a bit more complicated than that and that learning can develops concepts of agency and identity, 70 00:07:28,550 --> 00:07:36,560 self-worth and resilience, and that may be what the mechanism is that leads us to the systems, but also the process of applying to prisoners. 71 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:45,560 Education trust means that people write a letter, and if we can, which we largely do, we will give you the courts, 72 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,250 we will give you money, and we'll say We believe in you and we trust you and we want you to do this. 73 00:07:49,550 --> 00:07:58,700 So there may be something in this process of affirmation and alongside the learning and the agency that we believe and may, as I say, 74 00:07:58,710 --> 00:08:03,710 that may to the systems and how all of these concepts that we associate with learning 75 00:08:03,950 --> 00:08:08,300 may be related to this wider concept of emotional well-being within the prison. 76 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:18,170 And so these are some of the concepts that I just wanted to push out to you before and what we were able to do with that data, lab data, 77 00:08:18,470 --> 00:08:25,310 and because we have some big numbers and we were able to actually separated by course type and we saw some things that we weren't 78 00:08:25,310 --> 00:08:40,129 really expecting to see because and one of the and most of the grants that we give are for courses that are formalised and accredited, 79 00:08:40,130 --> 00:08:43,670 etc. But one thing that we have here, the arts and hobbies, 80 00:08:43,940 --> 00:08:53,860 that's just a £50 grant that we can give to anybody who is interested in having a £50 grant to do some arts and hobbies in school. 81 00:08:54,410 --> 00:08:59,990 And there's no qualifications attached. There's no learning attached whatsoever and set learning attach. 82 00:09:00,410 --> 00:09:06,830 And and so we weren't expecting that to have had an impact on reoffending rates. 83 00:09:06,830 --> 00:09:12,980 But actually we found that it was in comparison to our accredited courses that came back inconclusive. 84 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:17,179 So we thought, hmm, what sort of mechanisms are we talking about here? 85 00:09:17,180 --> 00:09:22,570 I just wanted to I mean, I don't have any answers for this and please don't take away from this that okay, fine. 86 00:09:22,580 --> 00:09:29,360 And stop accrediting courses in prison or giving courses in prison because that's hopefully not the learning that that that we 87 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:36,560 believe this is but there may be something about if you're worried about unlisted credits that actually has a negative impact, 88 00:09:37,190 --> 00:09:44,959 it would be more down to statistical side rather than the actual conclusion that one works into one does yeah yeah we spent an 89 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:53,990 accredited is sorry that you come from this and obviously better than yeah no but what what we what we were weren't expecting. 90 00:09:55,360 --> 00:10:00,910 Is I mean, we did actually have a larger group size for arts and hobbies than for the apprentices. 91 00:10:01,180 --> 00:10:11,890 However, we weren't expecting to see any statistically significant impacts of the arts and hobbies, which may be quite cynical on our part, actually. 92 00:10:12,580 --> 00:10:18,490 But we think I think that might be quite interesting when we're trying to think about the sorts of mechanisms that we should be measuring, 93 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:23,530 when we're talking about education in prison, and if reducing reoffending is necessarily, 94 00:10:23,860 --> 00:10:28,480 you know, the ultimate thing that we should be judging everything by. 95 00:10:30,410 --> 00:10:35,160 And also, just a little bit, how much time would like a house? 96 00:10:35,830 --> 00:10:45,310 You've got 10 minutes. Okay. Okay. So and also just to link in some of the some of the wider outcomes that are very clear from from the literature 97 00:10:45,550 --> 00:10:51,640 about how we can apply education and look at it a bit wider than it is education as a coping mechanism. 98 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:54,730 I'm sure none of this is going to be shocking to anybody, 99 00:10:55,000 --> 00:11:01,210 but education is seen as a coping mechanism by many prisoners, and it's used as a tool to avoid prison ization. 100 00:11:01,510 --> 00:11:04,540 And it's a protective factor against self-harm. 101 00:11:04,540 --> 00:11:12,579 Suicide and violence is the only really 1015 and smaller intervention evaluations have demonstrated that it can support 102 00:11:12,580 --> 00:11:19,450 positive contributions to family life and lots in many ways increases in self-esteem and shifts in life narrative, 103 00:11:19,450 --> 00:11:22,750 an increased sense of agency and improved mental health. 104 00:11:23,560 --> 00:11:29,740 And yeah, so just to give you a little bit of data that we had from Prisons Education Trust, 105 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:38,920 which was a survey that we sent out and via a newspaper that goes out in prison, we have friends and 43 responses to this. 106 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:47,260 And we found that 69% said that their learning had improved their ability to cope with prison, and 40% said that it improved a lot. 107 00:11:47,680 --> 00:11:54,310 And in responses to really open questions like any other, any other, 108 00:11:54,430 --> 00:11:57,969 anything else you want to add, we found this constant, constantly recurring theme. 109 00:11:57,970 --> 00:11:59,950 This is something that we see in a lot of our correspondence, 110 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:06,190 this link between so having the opportunity to use my time productively in prison has saved my sanity. 111 00:12:06,490 --> 00:12:09,070 I think I'll be on anti-depressants at the very least without it. 112 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:14,410 And keeping my mind occupied helps to lessen the frequency and severity of my bipolar episodes. 113 00:12:14,740 --> 00:12:18,100 And this, in turn, means I more able to cope with the stresses of prison life. 114 00:12:18,490 --> 00:12:25,840 My studies may well have saved my life. And these these maybe these aren't necessarily the most extreme things that we hear. 115 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,470 This is quite semi representative of, say, some of our correspondence. 116 00:12:30,220 --> 00:12:35,000 An education gives me a reason to wake up in the morning and break. Okay. 117 00:12:35,660 --> 00:12:41,209 Right. So in a summary, these are some of the links that these are some of the wide outcomes that I 118 00:12:41,210 --> 00:12:45,390 think that we should be thinking about when we're talking about education and, 119 00:12:46,390 --> 00:12:52,150 and well, also learning and links for wellbeing and present. 120 00:12:52,610 --> 00:12:58,429 And but one of the things that we think we might be able to implement with this is by 121 00:12:58,430 --> 00:13:04,610 mobilising culture and we think that by developing positive learning cultures within prison, 122 00:13:04,910 --> 00:13:12,470 we'll be able to impact much more easily and readily on these and wiser outcomes for learning, 123 00:13:12,830 --> 00:13:21,500 rather than much more and much more formalised and rigid that we may see if it's removed to an education department. 124 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:27,020 And just to talk you, this is where I start talking about this other project. 125 00:13:27,460 --> 00:13:30,950 And so. 126 00:13:35,410 --> 00:13:43,120 It's so true and a literature review and also through correspondence and and discussions and 127 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,949 roundtables with third sector organisations about what's a learning culture in prison may look like. 128 00:13:47,950 --> 00:13:52,780 We came up with these dimensions that we were trying to ultimately trying to measure. 129 00:13:53,410 --> 00:14:00,040 And so we are looking at empowering, say by empowering we were looking for an environment where prisoners are encouraged by 130 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,820 all SAT staff to have a say in their learning and personal development in the prison. 131 00:14:04,390 --> 00:14:11,980 And inclusive and inclusive is the extent to which staff encouraged prisoners to positively engage in some sort of learning. 132 00:14:11,980 --> 00:14:20,290 And we mean learning in a very wide sense here and celebrated their achievements when they did so very significant and aspirational. 133 00:14:20,380 --> 00:14:21,970 We had three aspirational. 134 00:14:21,970 --> 00:14:29,740 We're focusing on how well the culture encouraged prisoners to imagine a positive future for themselves, engaging and relevant. 135 00:14:29,740 --> 00:14:36,129 So the extent to which prisoners are aware of available learning opportunities and also how varied, 136 00:14:36,130 --> 00:14:40,450 interesting and relevant they are and to their future plans. 137 00:14:40,810 --> 00:14:45,459 And also, I'm safe. And by safe we mean physical safety. 138 00:14:45,460 --> 00:14:49,510 We mean psychological safety. We mean feeling safe. 139 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:54,820 And so this was our original conception of a learning culture. 140 00:14:55,810 --> 00:15:02,590 And we wanted to create an intervention whereby we were able to use this concept of a 141 00:15:02,590 --> 00:15:09,040 learning culture and develop something which is co-production with prisoners and staff, 142 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:14,860 working together to develop this concept of learner voice and increased agency within the prisoners. 143 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:21,550 And we wondered, we wondered whether or not that would be able to impact on this prison wide learning culture. 144 00:15:22,660 --> 00:15:31,180 So just to explain a little bit more about what I mean by learner voice as forming part of Islamic culture and learner voices, 145 00:15:31,180 --> 00:15:33,249 the involvement of learners and potential. 146 00:15:33,250 --> 00:15:41,650 And so those that may not be engaged in learning or anything else within the prison and in shaping their learning opportunities available to them. 147 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:47,760 And this may be a familiar. That picture. 148 00:15:48,270 --> 00:15:55,080 There's but I don't know if you can see, but we're talking about moving from this process of reform to consultation to involvement, 149 00:15:55,410 --> 00:16:04,940 collaboration and ultimately empowerment. So in order to create this intervention and we had a tool kit that was created from best 150 00:16:04,940 --> 00:16:10,010 practice around the prison about the ways that prisoners were developing their line of voice. 151 00:16:10,490 --> 00:16:18,470 And we created three training sessions, one with staff only, where we go in and train about the concepts of the voice. 152 00:16:18,890 --> 00:16:23,330 And then we'd go back and then we'd leave. And then we'd come back a few weeks later. 153 00:16:23,630 --> 00:16:29,810 And we worked with staff and prisoners together. We invited prisoners at that stage, and that was where we started to come up with an action plan. 154 00:16:30,230 --> 00:16:37,160 And the whole premise of this was that prisoners and staff would be discussing the needs of their particular 155 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:43,880 prison and coming up with something for that particular prison that could take them further up that ladder. 156 00:16:44,450 --> 00:16:48,960 And then we would leave them to get on with it and then come back and launch the activity. 157 00:16:48,980 --> 00:16:58,750 So this was our intervention. We ran in eight different prisons, which were particularly selected for that breadth of function, age, gender. 158 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:03,340 We tried to cover as much as possible within our prisons and from start to finish, 159 00:17:03,350 --> 00:17:09,320 and we were looking at around about six months from when we first went in to afterwards. 160 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:17,920 And so sorry. The main thing I'm missing out here is that what we what we were trying to support prisoners and 161 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:26,860 staff in doing was creating this project that was going to reach out to those deemed hard to reach. 162 00:17:27,370 --> 00:17:34,420 So that's those for the purposes of this research, we were looking at those that were engaged in purposeful activity on a regular basis. 163 00:17:36,250 --> 00:17:44,140 So the final projects, the eight of them came up with, one of them came up with Atlantic Council. 164 00:17:44,170 --> 00:17:47,740 Obviously, quite a democratic process. Another one, which is a women's prison, 165 00:17:48,430 --> 00:17:55,090 came up with this idea of rebranding that Education Department because all of the posters on that Education Department were of men. 166 00:17:55,300 --> 00:17:58,810 And they found that actually that meant women were engaging. 167 00:17:58,810 --> 00:18:01,280 They didn't relate bizarrely. 168 00:18:01,300 --> 00:18:08,020 And then we also had this prisoner newsletter that was about sharing good practice and sharing positive stories around the prison. 169 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:10,060 And interesting. We're going to talk about this. 170 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:15,760 I've got a couple of minutes in a moment about the prison that used education and skills champions and 171 00:18:15,910 --> 00:18:22,840 resting on this horizontal communication between selected representatives and prisoners across the prison. 172 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:28,900 And then Prisoner Information Desk, which was ultimately a desk on every wing, 173 00:18:29,650 --> 00:18:36,520 which has information about everything that was going on around the prison, how to access all the different types of services, 174 00:18:36,850 --> 00:18:45,190 such as housing searches and drug support, where to go for if you want to book a family visit, 175 00:18:45,190 --> 00:18:50,980 all of those sorts of things, as well as education, health opportunities, all of these things. 176 00:18:51,220 --> 00:18:55,840 But they were all in the prison and they were managed by a one staff member and one prisoner. 177 00:18:56,690 --> 00:19:02,340 And. In order to evaluate the changes in the learning culture. 178 00:19:03,690 --> 00:19:11,370 We all methodology we we developed a survey in order to measure those dimensions that we previously discussed. 179 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:19,320 We had one for staff and one for prisoners. We run them out across the whole prison pre and post workshops and before and after the whole project. 180 00:19:19,740 --> 00:19:23,610 We also held observations throughout all of the workshops. 181 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:30,120 We had interviews with staff and prisoners before and afterwards and also focus groups with prisoner participants at the end. 182 00:19:30,690 --> 00:19:36,300 And so we wanted to capture the change in the learning and rehabilitative culture from course by staff and prisoners, 183 00:19:36,540 --> 00:19:43,800 and also catch any engagement of those within the prison that were previously not engaged and. 184 00:19:46,150 --> 00:19:56,100 Ultimately, our findings led us to this three cluster model and we are ultimately at the end of our session, 185 00:19:56,110 --> 00:19:58,929 we didn't really give them much time to allow us to embed, 186 00:19:58,930 --> 00:20:05,050 so we weren't really expecting to see many results, particularly in our Cross Prison survey. 187 00:20:06,220 --> 00:20:13,060 We were quite pleasantly surprised and we did have some prisons out of the way that weren't able to get this project off the ground. 188 00:20:13,060 --> 00:20:17,950 And we were expecting that. And we have challenged them, the resistors and. 189 00:20:18,940 --> 00:20:26,110 And then there were also those prisons that were able to get the projects off the ground and were really doing really positive work. 190 00:20:26,410 --> 00:20:31,330 And our qualitative evidence demonstrated that very readily. 191 00:20:31,690 --> 00:20:37,780 However, we weren't able to get any statistical significance in the changes in the survey feedback. 192 00:20:38,290 --> 00:20:42,670 And then finally we had the visionaries and enthusiasts who both qualitative and 193 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:48,010 quantitative evidence demonstrated a shift in learning culture across the prison. 194 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:56,770 And after we'd been working with them through these few months and the characteristics that we found would 195 00:20:56,770 --> 00:21:06,340 determine where a prison SAT was how committees and staff and prisoners both were throughout this entire process. 196 00:21:06,550 --> 00:21:12,720 In some May and some of the resistance, we found that this inconsistency and I mean, 197 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:17,350 that's another point that this inconsistency between with staff will turn up and 198 00:21:17,350 --> 00:21:25,509 there'll be somebody different that every time nobody knew where they stood. And so commitment to have a really significant, effective communication. 199 00:21:25,510 --> 00:21:29,919 And by effective communication, we meant horizontal and vertical. 200 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:37,090 It was very, very significant that it all kind of came together and we had buy in from the government and staff on the ground. 201 00:21:37,420 --> 00:21:44,200 Staff on the ground and in a prison can make or break any innovation you're trying to push. 202 00:21:44,650 --> 00:21:48,430 And if you have the governor's mind as well, that can ease that up immediately. 203 00:21:48,430 --> 00:21:58,239 And we saw that that really distinguished between these two and consistency in approach something I think I really just before and also the level of 204 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:02,380 control and autonomy that was given to prisoners that was really fundamental 205 00:22:02,390 --> 00:22:07,810 in separating where in all three customers of these prisons were situated. 206 00:22:08,980 --> 00:22:15,730 Okay. Very briefly, I want to talk you through just one case study. 207 00:22:16,090 --> 00:22:22,700 And because I've only got one minute left and this is in this particular prison, 208 00:22:22,780 --> 00:22:32,630 they they really were very successful in engaging these hard to reach and in a way that we didn't really see so much in the others and in this prison. 209 00:22:32,650 --> 00:22:41,770 This was the learning and skills champions prison. And from the very, very beginning they had staff from senior management and they had offices. 210 00:22:41,770 --> 00:22:47,110 They had people from around the prison were engaged in our project and but they also had 211 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,130 prisoners engaged in the project and they invited them along very early on in the process. 212 00:22:51,580 --> 00:22:55,780 And they came up with this idea about learning and skills champions, 213 00:22:55,780 --> 00:23:02,770 because it came from one of the younger prisoners in the institution who felt like he wanted to represent younger prisoners. 214 00:23:03,070 --> 00:23:06,790 And we also had somebody from PE who wants to represent the gym, 215 00:23:07,090 --> 00:23:10,780 and we ended up with somebody who was representing every activity that was 216 00:23:10,780 --> 00:23:17,410 happening in the prison and different groups and what they did in that role. 217 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:25,840 Actually, let me step back one second. They had an extremely high rate of people just staying behind their doors at the beginning of the day. 218 00:23:26,050 --> 00:23:31,240 Some every time they'd come get unlocked, they had maybe about 40% of their prison just would not engage. 219 00:23:31,810 --> 00:23:38,260 They wouldn't even go to gym, which is big. They that was really negative culture in engagement. 220 00:23:39,290 --> 00:23:45,830 But with these 12 men, all their job was was to go onto the ring and just have some heart to heart something. 221 00:23:45,850 --> 00:23:47,979 I mean, why why are you doing this? 222 00:23:47,980 --> 00:23:56,230 And are you aware of these opportunities that are available and the time span that we had between our second intervention, 223 00:23:56,230 --> 00:24:03,190 where the prisoners were present and they started this project and when we came back was maybe a few weeks and they 224 00:24:03,190 --> 00:24:12,009 managed to have 80 extra people in engaged in education or in some form of activity in the prison that previously went. 225 00:24:12,010 --> 00:24:13,930 And they've been tracking that. So that was very useful to us. 226 00:24:14,230 --> 00:24:22,540 So what we took from that was very much about the relationships between the staff and the prisoners was very non-hierarchical from the very beginning. 227 00:24:23,380 --> 00:24:31,570 But more than that horizontal relationship between prisoners spreading the word to other prisoners was really fundamental and very, 228 00:24:31,570 --> 00:24:32,980 very quickly make this change. 229 00:24:33,370 --> 00:24:45,220 But primarily we had some really fantastic outcomes measured in terms of the levels of fulfilment that those that were engaged in the project. 230 00:24:45,820 --> 00:24:53,620 Took from the project. And so in terms of conclusions, trying to pull this together, 231 00:24:54,430 --> 00:25:01,780 I think that engaging these hard to reach should be the responsibility of the combined efforts from groups and individuals around the prison. 232 00:25:02,470 --> 00:25:06,400 And this should not ever be an individual penalised for not engaging. 233 00:25:08,170 --> 00:25:13,840 We are also concluded that the possibility to influence learning culture across a wide space 234 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:19,000 in a short space of time is possible even when working with a small group of innovators. 235 00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:23,499 And I don't say that effective communication commitment level of co-production, 236 00:25:23,500 --> 00:25:29,410 prisoners and staff working together and mRNA appears significant in the success of this projects. 237 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:31,840 Okay. Look here.