1 00:00:06,030 --> 00:00:11,310 So I'm going to talk about I'm an intellectual historian of capitalism, and you're going to see this chart, 2 00:00:11,310 --> 00:00:16,290 but it's the only chart that's going to be somewhat similar to the ones we've seen before. 3 00:00:16,290 --> 00:00:20,760 But I'm going to attack it from a slightly different angle. And when looking at these charts of great divergence, 4 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:27,870 I'm really going to do something that in some ways we began to do in in the last discussion is try to interrogate the categories that are used here. 5 00:00:27,870 --> 00:00:33,330 And basically the argument of kind of where this idea of gross domestic product comes from, 6 00:00:33,330 --> 00:00:38,100 but also to maybe suggest very tentatively another causal reason for the great 7 00:00:38,100 --> 00:00:43,110 divergence being that maybe societies who make something like maximising product, 8 00:00:43,110 --> 00:00:46,800 their goal then end up actually increasing their product. 9 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:54,900 So in other words, maybe the ideas sometimes come before the material change and the example I have for someone who certainly 10 00:00:54,900 --> 00:01:03,480 began to imagine the world and the goal of kind of increasing economic product is Alexander Hamilton, 11 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:08,970 who has become very famous and is undoubtedly in many ways the the father of American capitalism, 12 00:01:08,970 --> 00:01:13,380 and when he was already secretary of Treasury in 1791, 13 00:01:13,380 --> 00:01:24,450 after he had played a very large role in getting creating the institutional power that created the very sick the Treasury Department, 14 00:01:24,450 --> 00:01:31,500 Hamilton is writing his report on manufacturers. He is. He has the dream of bringing the industrial revolution to American shores. 15 00:01:31,500 --> 00:01:36,540 And he really wants to convince people as he writes this report with like a statistical appendix. 16 00:01:36,540 --> 00:01:37,770 He wants there to be cold, 17 00:01:37,770 --> 00:01:47,550 hard numbers to show pretty much why agriculture is not as productive as industry and why we need to bring industry into United States. 18 00:01:47,550 --> 00:01:51,150 And later, he kind of raises what his question was. 19 00:01:51,150 --> 00:01:55,140 And he and here's the quote. The question will still be whether the surplus, 20 00:01:55,140 --> 00:01:59,340 after defraying expenses of a given capital employed in the purchase and improvement of a piece of 21 00:01:59,340 --> 00:02:04,290 land is greater or less than that of like capital employed in a prosecution of a manufacturer. 22 00:02:04,290 --> 00:02:04,740 But for me, 23 00:02:04,740 --> 00:02:11,910 the key point is really the second part or rather perhaps whether the business is already imagining agriculture and manufacturing as a business, 24 00:02:11,910 --> 00:02:16,110 whether the business of agriculture or manufacturers will yield the greatest product. 25 00:02:16,110 --> 00:02:25,500 So in many ways, he has this vision of of maximising productivity, economic market productivity in his mind, and now he needs the data. 26 00:02:25,500 --> 00:02:29,580 And so he has his tax collectors that he, of course this is. 27 00:02:29,580 --> 00:02:35,910 He himself built this giant bureaucratic network of tax collectors in order to pay for the national debt. 28 00:02:35,910 --> 00:02:44,460 He sends them off to go to these American farmers and manufacturers and artisans and ask them what their annual product is, 29 00:02:44,460 --> 00:02:48,000 how much do they kind of generate in money per year? 30 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:55,260 And he gives instructions, you know, about how he wants the amounts, but he also wants the prices, and he waits a few months. 31 00:02:55,260 --> 00:03:01,200 And then the responses begin to come in. And Hamilton is very disappointed. 32 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:07,470 There is no statistical appendix to the report and manufacturers because he just could not get the data that he wanted. 33 00:03:07,470 --> 00:03:14,940 And just to give a few kind of small examples of the manufacturers. So you see that the artisans never really describe things in numerical terms. 34 00:03:14,940 --> 00:03:19,800 A great many people are employed in Ireland. The number of sheep is fast increasing. 35 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:27,810 A Hartford businessman, I am not possessed of sufficient documents on which to ground any details or calculations on the annual valid value. 36 00:03:27,810 --> 00:03:34,350 Tax collectors saying annual produce is not easy to determine. The farmers don't do much better. 37 00:03:34,350 --> 00:03:39,210 A Bucks County farmer tells him the novelty of the subject and never having kept a regular account. 38 00:03:39,210 --> 00:03:41,970 I don't know anybody else who does this kind of stuff. 39 00:03:41,970 --> 00:03:50,100 The Maryland farmers like maybe I can get you some quantities, but I can't really, you know, figure out the value of Virginia Tax Collector. 40 00:03:50,100 --> 00:03:54,660 He's like, you know, in a new country like this, I can't really do it. And then Timothy Pickering, a friend of Hamilton, 41 00:03:54,660 --> 00:04:01,830 says I doubt whether one American farmer in a thousand has determined by actual ad measurement the sizes of his lands and their produce. 42 00:04:01,830 --> 00:04:08,160 So. So Hamilton fails. And in many ways we see here, this is kind of like a great intellectual divergence. 43 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:13,290 We have, you know, these two visions. One of them very modern, very kind of capitalist. 44 00:04:13,290 --> 00:04:17,580 If you want to use that word and the other one something else, then I'll in a second say what it is. 45 00:04:17,580 --> 00:04:23,640 I don't think it's, you know, this kind of moral economy of self-sufficient yeoman farmers. 46 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:28,530 I don't think that's what it is, and we'll get back to that. But there's definitely some kind of divergence here. 47 00:04:28,530 --> 00:04:32,490 And then the first question I want to ask here is, well, why? 48 00:04:32,490 --> 00:04:39,000 Why this divergence? And I've been pushed more and more in the last few years to think globally and and and 49 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:43,830 I definitely think that the number one reason is that Hamilton was not an American. 50 00:04:43,830 --> 00:04:47,580 Hamilton did not grow up. He grew up. This is a globe. 51 00:04:47,580 --> 00:04:51,270 But it is that this is a global story. 52 00:04:51,270 --> 00:04:58,110 Alexander Hamilton was born and raised on what I would argue is an island that basically turned into one giant capitalist investment. 53 00:04:58,110 --> 00:05:06,530 Something that's. Well, it's interesting because the Hamilton story about the Caribbean, if we're going through it, 54 00:05:06,530 --> 00:05:13,140 is always used as this kind of rags to riches story, but it's never used to explain actually where his own intellectual ideas come from. 55 00:05:13,140 --> 00:05:17,530 That's always coming from England or, you know, and here I'm going to try to tell you a slightly different story. 56 00:05:17,530 --> 00:05:24,930 So he's there. He's very observant, you know, he's obviously not working on the plantations or even, you know, running these plantations. 57 00:05:24,930 --> 00:05:29,760 But he's a merchant. He's buying, he's selling slaves often. Sometimes. But this is you know what I want to talk about here? 58 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:36,150 Is this the Caribbean as just a giant capitalised investment, so it's financed by bankers who are buying mortgages back in England. 59 00:05:36,150 --> 00:05:42,030 It's absentee landlords. So this isn't like in the United States, so I'll get to second is very different from Princeton's tobacco slavery. 60 00:05:42,030 --> 00:05:45,330 93 percent of the inhabitants are slaves, so it's not, you know, again, 61 00:05:45,330 --> 00:05:48,870 very different from certain areas of the United States, which did have slavery. 62 00:05:48,870 --> 00:05:54,900 It's a very kind of profit oriented form of slavery because of that distance of the investors who are far away. 63 00:05:54,900 --> 00:05:59,730 So they need all these people generating reports all the time of how much, you know, sugar. 64 00:05:59,730 --> 00:06:04,140 I forgot to add here. Also, sugar itself is very different from tobacco. It's very capital intensive. 65 00:06:04,140 --> 00:06:10,470 You need a lot more money. So all these different differences. The island itself, where he grows up on St. Croix, was actually bought. 66 00:06:10,470 --> 00:06:18,120 So in itself, in many ways was a commodity. And then, of course, the extreme monoculture that allows him to view kind of the world in market prices. 67 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,960 It makes sense, you know, when you kind of are a merchant and you're thinking of everything, 68 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,290 basically everything, almost everything that is consumed in this world, 69 00:06:25,290 --> 00:06:33,900 much like our world today, is to markets, which is, of course, would be a very foreign idea to many other places in the world. 70 00:06:33,900 --> 00:06:40,470 And so what's interesting is that I don't think this idea of Caribbean slavery is proven only with Hamilton. 71 00:06:40,470 --> 00:06:44,670 When I went back and looked for other cases where you see this kind of prototype kind 72 00:06:44,670 --> 00:06:48,750 of ways of calculating the only place where I really found it was in South Carolina. 73 00:06:48,750 --> 00:06:53,430 And for those who don't know South Carolina, you know, slavery is very much more like the Caribbean slavery. 74 00:06:53,430 --> 00:06:58,320 A lot of people came from the Caribbean to South Carolina. It's not like it took out tobacco planting. 75 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:03,510 It's a lot like the whole social model of the absentee landlord, these giant estates, it's very much similar. 76 00:07:03,510 --> 00:07:10,200 And sure enough, there you do see these things like, you know, people calculating how much wealth each labourer will bring. 77 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:14,160 So it's kind of like this idea of, you know, a per capita productivity or, you know, 78 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:19,350 when when I employ them in rice, the slaves may earn a master 25 or 30 pounds. 79 00:07:19,350 --> 00:07:19,950 And then, of course, 80 00:07:19,950 --> 00:07:28,530 the governor of South Carolina in 1751 is the first one to create kind of like a national income accounting to value South Carolina. 81 00:07:28,530 --> 00:07:32,850 He gives the value of South Carolina in much the same way that people here were discussing before. 82 00:07:32,850 --> 00:07:39,390 He kind of guesses, you know, more or less what the income is and then kind of figures out what the output is. 83 00:07:39,390 --> 00:07:44,010 And just to also show again why I think it's important to stress this kind of vision. 84 00:07:44,010 --> 00:07:52,890 So so Hamilton, when he's younger, about 15 years before he's the secretary of Treasury, he's a he's a colonel in the American Revolutionary War, 85 00:07:52,890 --> 00:07:57,390 and he's has this little paperwork that he's going around and it's supposed to right there. 86 00:07:57,390 --> 00:07:59,130 You know how much he's paying all his soldiers. 87 00:07:59,130 --> 00:08:03,660 But if you go to the back, what it really has is all these economic statistics that he's been collecting. 88 00:08:03,660 --> 00:08:11,850 And one of them is, you see that he's been reading William Petit. He's somehow managed to get these ideas of, you know, national income and GDP. 89 00:08:11,850 --> 00:08:20,670 And and then the question is, where is he getting this from? William Petit, of course, is who I understood was a student in this college fellow. 90 00:08:20,670 --> 00:08:27,690 Sorry. Oh, see. So the biographies of Hamilton, not me, figured this out. 91 00:08:27,690 --> 00:08:30,210 A long time ago, while Hamilton went to war, 92 00:08:30,210 --> 00:08:37,770 he was lugging around a two volume set of the encyclopaedia the Universal Dictionary of Trade and Commerce written by mouth. 93 00:08:37,770 --> 00:08:41,220 I passed away and he talks about this later in his life, he said. 94 00:08:41,220 --> 00:08:46,680 It's like the best book you ever read, and it was really influential and passed away. 95 00:08:46,680 --> 00:08:49,350 For those who don't know, here's the connexion again. 96 00:08:49,350 --> 00:08:55,170 So Passed Away begins his kind of political career, as you know, a great pamphleteer for the Royal African company. 97 00:08:55,170 --> 00:08:59,940 And there you see how he's oftentimes using the political arithmetic of Petty 98 00:08:59,940 --> 00:09:05,670 in order to kind of calculate the annual gain by the nation of Negro labour. 99 00:09:05,670 --> 00:09:15,720 And then later, he kind of talks about this. And now what I'm trying to argue here is not that slavery is the founding of GDP or anything like that, 100 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:25,680 but that in many ways was the way in which these ideas transferred from one area in the world England in this case to another area in the world. 101 00:09:25,680 --> 00:09:29,490 The United States also want to be very clear that Alexander Hamilton was against slavery. He didn't think. 102 00:09:29,490 --> 00:09:33,720 But what I'm arguing here is that it changed the way he viewed the world, whether he liked it or not. 103 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:37,590 It changed him. But slavery is not the only story here. 104 00:09:37,590 --> 00:09:43,380 And again, I'm I wasn't even talking necessarily only about slavery. I was talking about very specific kind of capital intensive Caribbean slavery. 105 00:09:43,380 --> 00:09:49,440 Again, the tobacco slavery. Hamilton sends these letters out to the Virginia Flanders, and they don't really know anything, either. 106 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,830 And if you know anything like a little briefly about tobacco, it's, you know, it's very easy to grow. 107 00:09:53,830 --> 00:09:59,250 It's not very capital intensive. It was just a different way of kind of seeing and calculating. 108 00:09:59,250 --> 00:09:59,820 But I. 109 00:09:59,820 --> 00:10:07,350 I don't think that's the only reason that Hamilton was attracted to this world, so just briefly before I kind of move on to the final aspect of this, 110 00:10:07,350 --> 00:10:15,540 I just want to talk a little bit of what are the other kind of forces that are leading Hamilton to think in this new kind of proto GDP way. 111 00:10:15,540 --> 00:10:21,480 And I think one that people don't talk enough is about is sovereign debt. I think that Hamilton was, of course, just created. 112 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:28,260 This giant national debt has begun to constantly imagine the United States as an investment. 113 00:10:28,260 --> 00:10:33,180 You know, how many people are that? How much can they earn each year? How can we pay off our debt through these bonds? 114 00:10:33,180 --> 00:10:36,570 And I think that changes the way you think of of a nation. 115 00:10:36,570 --> 00:10:43,110 You begin to think of its citizens as this kind of income generating little kind of money-makers banking. 116 00:10:43,110 --> 00:10:47,400 Of course, how can we not talk about banking when we talk about Alexander Hamilton? 117 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,760 And here that gets to the last big point I'm going to make, 118 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:55,380 and I think here we do have to make a very important distinction between money and capital. 119 00:10:55,380 --> 00:11:03,000 So clearly, money was something that was very, you know, developed in the United States in this time from from colonial times. 120 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:08,950 I would argue that the money in colonial times is more of like a government infrastructure than it was necessarily a capital. 121 00:11:08,950 --> 00:11:14,550 It was. That's how it was imagined. It's more like we're going to build roads, but we're also going to need some money in order to have this trade. 122 00:11:14,550 --> 00:11:18,180 But that's not the way Hamilton thinks of money, or that's not how he wants it. 123 00:11:18,180 --> 00:11:24,720 He wants to turn money into capital. He wants to turn money into more money. It doesn't just facilitate trade, but it actually is these investments. 124 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:31,470 And so he kind of, you know, complains that these Americans way of again, this is this intellectual divergence that I'm trying to trace that these, 125 00:11:31,470 --> 00:11:37,710 you know, these Americans, they kind of are thinking of it only as an instrument of exchange, you know, and that's not enough for him. 126 00:11:37,710 --> 00:11:39,600 It's dead stock. That's what he calls it. 127 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:47,070 And what he wants to do is he wants to allow it to acquire life and active and produce productive quality, and only a bank can do that. 128 00:11:47,070 --> 00:11:56,880 Basically, what you need is an institution where savers can deposit their money and then someone else will come and invest it. 129 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:03,180 And so act of wealth is a term that comes up a lot in Hamilton. I think basically that's his word for capital in many ways. 130 00:12:03,180 --> 00:12:12,120 And then finally, of course, one of the reasons he's looking for all this data is because he himself is personally invested in bringing the 131 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:20,520 industrial revolution to American shores alongside these kind of productivity figures that he's collecting on the side, 132 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:25,350 not part of his professional, but on the side is like a capitalist. He's also collecting wage data, 133 00:12:25,350 --> 00:12:31,500 and he's already beginning to try to see what's going to be the difference between how much these people produce and how much they actually earn. 134 00:12:31,500 --> 00:12:33,390 So I can, you know, make a nice profit. 135 00:12:33,390 --> 00:12:42,630 So obviously, I think there's a definitely manufacturers also need to imagine output and begin to think of the world in its terms in order to profit. 136 00:12:42,630 --> 00:12:46,110 And so I get to the second point here why this great investment, 137 00:12:46,110 --> 00:12:53,100 intellectual divergence and and I call it in my book that I wrote two years ago, I call it this idea of investment talent. 138 00:12:53,100 --> 00:12:59,910 It's again, all the things that I've just discussed kind of seeing the world as a series of capitalised investments 139 00:12:59,910 --> 00:13:07,020 and imagining whether people or land or natural resources or time itself as an income generating asset. 140 00:13:07,020 --> 00:13:12,690 And the only way I can do that is if I begin to measure, you know, how much it's going to produce for me every year. 141 00:13:12,690 --> 00:13:18,840 And then of course, from that I can also, if I want to, I can capitalise that and turn it into a value for for wealth now. 142 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:27,000 And they're all. Hamilton doesn't do this so much, but there's, of course, a very popular exercise that's beginning to take place amongst capitalists, 143 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:32,470 whether it's real estate or other forms of investment in these times. 144 00:13:32,470 --> 00:13:41,120 And so I just want to end by the other by talking about the other side of why is Hamilton's vision so foreign to most Americans except for again, 145 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:45,040 by the way, if he had sent the letters to South Carolina, I think he would have gotten much better answers. But he didn't. 146 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:49,960 He sent it to Virginia. Another plane never sent it to the the big planters in South Carolina. 147 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:56,260 So first of all, I want to say this is not because the American yeoman farmer was not market oriented. 148 00:13:56,260 --> 00:14:02,440 I think big mistake that I will say the American Left has done in historiography, not now, 149 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:07,990 but in previous years was to kind of create this romanticised version of the self-sufficient farmer. 150 00:14:07,990 --> 00:14:16,270 Whereas I think the more important dynamic here is between markets and capital or between commodification and capitalisation. 151 00:14:16,270 --> 00:14:22,570 So the American farmer or America, or I would say Colonial America is one of the most commodified societies on Earth. 152 00:14:22,570 --> 00:14:27,610 The first thing America basically does is chop up its land and commodify it. Slaves are commodified. 153 00:14:27,610 --> 00:14:35,110 If you look at, you know, probate records from the 18th century, a lot of Americans are buying and selling commodities. 154 00:14:35,110 --> 00:14:38,350 And yet I think there's a very big difference between markets and capitalism. 155 00:14:38,350 --> 00:14:44,440 I think you can have markets, even a fairly highly market society, but it's not capitalism, because at the end of the day, 156 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:49,600 the way these people were imagining their world was mostly through exchange and not investment. 157 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:56,170 It wasn't so much this idea of I'm going to, you know, invest money and then kind of imagine this return. 158 00:14:56,170 --> 00:14:57,820 But it was more just these kind of exchanges. 159 00:14:57,820 --> 00:15:04,240 And one of the ways I think you can show this is their account books, which are filled with monetary markings. 160 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:09,100 They're constantly, you know, writing down like, you just mowed my lawn for two bucks and stuff like that. 161 00:15:09,100 --> 00:15:13,630 But they never, ever, ever, almost ever aggregate these together. 162 00:15:13,630 --> 00:15:18,880 They could write and they're, you know, they could say, Let's figure out, you know, how much they never do this. 163 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:25,390 They're only creating these accounts in order to have these market transactions because of course, money is fairly scarce. 164 00:15:25,390 --> 00:15:30,610 And so I think that's kind of like evidence of like. And again, this this I don't want to get into like questions of profit here. 165 00:15:30,610 --> 00:15:36,160 To me, it's more about this kind of act of aggregation. Are they even trying to calculate their annual product? 166 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:44,470 And the answer? I would argue, is no. And then the last thing I'll just say about this kind of divergence is that I think one of the 167 00:15:44,470 --> 00:15:50,680 reasons we see this here is because of the way American agriculture developed hardly any rent, 168 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:55,180 any wages or any capital at this point in American agriculture. 169 00:15:55,180 --> 00:16:03,070 So you know, that famous triangle that Adam Smith and Ricardo always talk about, about their aristocrat and the farmer and the wage? 170 00:16:03,070 --> 00:16:08,020 This does really almost doesn't exist. There's some tenant farming United States, but it's not, you know, the actual. 171 00:16:08,020 --> 00:16:13,120 So it's I think it's it's very hard for Americans to even imagine these categories 172 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,750 because they pretty much do not exist in the world that they're seeing. 173 00:16:16,750 --> 00:16:21,070 It's very hard for them to calculate the produce of their land or the productivity of their land. 174 00:16:21,070 --> 00:16:25,290 So just to give you example, William Petit, the way he calculates land productive use. 175 00:16:25,290 --> 00:16:30,280 Right? Well, what are you going to do? Nine states there is no rent. OK. Most both of these people don't even know how much their land is worth. 176 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:35,050 They bought it, you know, 30 years ago or they inherited. They're not usually planning to sell it. 177 00:16:35,050 --> 00:16:39,430 Maybe they have some vague idea of how much they're going to get for it. But again, that's more of a market price. 178 00:16:39,430 --> 00:16:44,090 That's not this idea of rent, which is just this annual kind of flow of income. 179 00:16:44,090 --> 00:16:48,340 They just they're not thinking in those terms the same thing you could say about capital. 180 00:16:48,340 --> 00:16:52,720 You know, you don't have these, you know, large investments in mortgages like you have. 181 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:54,010 Again, back to the Caribbean. 182 00:16:54,010 --> 00:17:03,790 So again, for someone like Hamilton who was born in this world, well, I really do think it's like ground zero of Western capitalism in many ways. 183 00:17:03,790 --> 00:17:10,810 It's just a very kind of natural. And so I can see why he was so attracted to William Petty and political arithmetic and all these things. 184 00:17:10,810 --> 00:17:17,140 But but for Americans, you can even look at Ben Benjamin Franklin and the way he kind of looks at William Petty. 185 00:17:17,140 --> 00:17:23,720 It's a very different way of kind of seeing. And I think I'm just going to very, very briefly, do I have like a minute? 186 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,880 I know we're supposed to talk about the end of the world. 187 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:37,210 So. So just very briefly, I want to say that Hamilton, second hand man, he's the deputy secretary of the Treasury. 188 00:17:37,210 --> 00:17:41,050 The man who actually had to sit and do as Joe was talking about the dirty work of 189 00:17:41,050 --> 00:17:46,060 collecting the statistics and who later is in charge of the 1810 Census of Manufacturers, 190 00:17:46,060 --> 00:17:49,120 the first census of manufacturers. So his name was TED Scopes. 191 00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:54,820 And he also, through this kind of statistical work that he's doing for Hamilton, develops this kind of vision. 192 00:17:54,820 --> 00:17:57,400 I would argue that most Americans don't have. 193 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:05,330 And when he realises what's going kind of the future of America, he decides that he's going to buy up all of the land in north. 194 00:18:05,330 --> 00:18:14,320 Is it north in northeastern Pennsylvania, which has large deposits of coal because he's, you know, imagining that the industrial revolution is coming? 195 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:21,730 And while he dies penniless because he, you know, invest all this money in the industrial revolution does not yet come. 196 00:18:21,730 --> 00:18:31,750 I can promise you that his grandsons are very happy. The Kochs becomes one of the larger coal companies in the world, and they begin. 197 00:18:31,750 --> 00:18:41,740 Poisoning our world and parts of that, obviously, I would argue, are a certain vision of growth that we've been talking about that in recent days. 198 00:18:41,740 --> 00:18:46,000 Thank you very much.