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Welcome to the ‘On Paradise’ podcast series.

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I'm Paul Basu, Professor of Anthropology at the University of Oxford

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and curator of ‘On Paradise: Between Hope and Memory’,

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an exhibition featuring the work of the artist Saad Qureshi

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at the Schwarzman Center for the Humanities in Oxford.

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‘On Paradise’ is part of ‘Utopia Now!’, a season of events

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that asks how we might live, imagine and create differently, and why

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imagining new futures matters now more than ever.

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As part of the exhibition, I spoke with humanities scholars

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across the university who, in different ways, work on themes relating to paradise

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and utopia in different cultural and historical contexts.

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In this episode, we hear the reflections of Veronika Poier,

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a specialist in the history of Islamic art and material culture...

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On Paradise.

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So my name is Veronika Poier.

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I'm the Islamic Art

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Fellow at the Center for Islamic Studies at Oxford.

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My role is to organize exhibitions, be

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in charge of art, but also to do research.

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And I do research on cultural heritage,

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intangible heritage and communities, especially in terms of

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continuation and reconstruction.

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For me,

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I think of Paradise as something lush and green, and I think that's maybe

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an idea that comes from Islamic garden design, which

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imitate Paradise in a way.

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Paradise in Islam in general is something

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organized and ordered in terms of division of goods, for instance.

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That means that everybody has access to what everybody has access to commodities.

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And in terms of Paradise and gardening

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in the Islamic world.

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The one instance where you have an image of Paradise,

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the concept of Paradise on Earth is a garden.

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So gardens are what we often are looking at

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if we look at Paradise on earth in this Islamic context, and there

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you can really see how you have a segmentation,

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even of the grounds in this very symmetrical, ordered way.

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So Paradise in

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the Islamic context is usually something very structured,

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taken care of with a just government or rulership.

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I've looked at gardens mostly, and how palaces and gardens interact

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with also mausolea, like the Taj Mahal

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where you have beauty as one of the divine qualities as well.

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This also is expressed through the choice

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of flowers, the choice of, of, of, of, you know, pomegranate trees

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who show blossoms and fruits at the same time.

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So you have this like perpetual tree

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that keeps giving, but also water justice in the sense

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that these are often very arid countries and Paradise there is really something

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that allows everyone to access water, but also with water is channeled

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in a way that it guarantees justice and therefore happiness.

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And I guess that goes, you know, kind of comes back

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then to this idea of everyone being welcome,

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everyone having a place and everyone being taken care of.

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Walled gardens do represent Paradise in the sense

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that everything is under control.

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Everything's very regimented.

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So you do have streams of water going through, but not just the garden’s

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wall, also, these streams are very much in order.

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They're they're regulated by marble slabs.

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And so that you really have a segmentation that's actually

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nearly mathematical in the sense of, of order.

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And nothing is a coincidence in a way.

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Everything is planned from, from the outset.

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There's nothing that is, is in

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a way, behaving in a wild way or this, this grow

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in a way that is not restricted to its place.

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And I'm thinking of specific plants, you know, that's just roses.

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They would be in a very particular part of the garden.

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That's an idea of Paradise that doesn't apply to other conceptions

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of Paradise, for instance, where you have maybe a more

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if you think of Christian painting that, you know, Renaissance painting, Baroque

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painting where you have a wood or some type of wood situation, forests.

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So that is completely different from the Islamic garden setting actually,

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which really plays on order and, and control as well.

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Generally we say it comes from Central Asia

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and then was spread by the Timurids and especially by the Mongols, you know,

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taken up.

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That's one part of this garden development and the other one you have

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in Spain and North Africa,

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we have, you know, terrace gardens, Granada.

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That idea comes from antiquity.

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So Roman gardens, you also see that in Istanbul.

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But this, this Persian garden idea

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is something very typical for the Mughal Empire.

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And so I think there's

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a connection between, you know, where it goes beyond religion, actually,

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it's more a tradition of planting gardens

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a certain way, which completely differs between the Mediterranean

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and and the Persianate world.

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You actually have texts

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which in the word for Paradise in Arabic is connected to gardens directly.

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So it is used in this context.

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The ruler is judged by his quality of ruling,

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and that includes water justice and that includes gardening.

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So a garden is extremely political in this context.

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It is not just a pleasure garden,

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like an English garden setting or a landscaping design.

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It really is a representation of rulership.

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And that, of course means divine rulership.

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And that goes back to Paradise on Earth.

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So this is connected in the sense of

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a distribution of power as well in a garden. Yes.

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Paradise and gardens are really, really very closely connected as concepts.

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So if you look

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at Islamic gardens and also Orientalist travelers, you know who experience them.

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I think that's when you have this connection of

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looking at these gardens as really compositions.

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That is English diplomats, British diplomats in India who experienced that,

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but also travelers like Owen Jones, who analyzes the Alhambra ...

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where the design of the building

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is considered in tandem with the design of the garden.

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So, so people, travelers really see this as a

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continuation where you always have a building in the garden.

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You never have a Paradise garden by itself.

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It's connected to a building.

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So when I'm saying this, I'm thinking of, of course, satanic gardens.

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I'm thinking of the garden of the Mughal ruler.

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I'm thinking of the garden of the Nasrid ruler in Granada.

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So these these palaces are basically integrated in the garden.

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And I think that the idea in the West of having a Paradise,

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or at least an Oriental garden as Paradise comes from through these travels,

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through these visits, and it's not really a concept before.

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What is similar, though, is monastic gardens in Europe.

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They in fact follow

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very much a layout that you could find in an Islamic garden,

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which is often a rectangular shape with paths through them.

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And I think the first time we have that is in Saint Gallen in Switzerland,

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where you have this monastery with its exemplary garden,

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and this garden spread to all the other monasteries of that order.

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And that's in a way of the conception of that

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very clearly was a Paradise on earth as well.

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In Islamic

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Garden, the the senses are actually very important.

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So if you think of not just the smells of the plants,

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which are part of that composition, but also the water.

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You always have a fountain, you do have this beautiful sound in the background.

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So the rules in these gardens 

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are really rewriting what's happening outside, which...

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Think of a very bustling city.

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Think of a dirty caravanserai.

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Of someone coming with camels, silk trade, a situation that's very real.

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And then on the other hand, you have this protected, clean, tranquil space.

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So that is a bit the reality of these gardens

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to absolutely engender behavior that's really just for the space

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and in the space.

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Ideas

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about gardens, whether that represent Paradise,

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whether in Islam or Christianity, are absolutely connected, as

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I think they do represent a very similar space that is, on the one hand,

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not on Earth, but through these gardens becomes

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materialized at least as like a, you know, pars pro

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toto of what Paradise could look just on a much bigger scale.

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The Quran is very specific about what what happens in Paradise.

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And I think there you really have a bit of a difference

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between the Christian, a Christian idea in terms of, you know...

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Even if you think of composers and how they try to

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frame Paradise in a Christian sense, it’s always trumpets.

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And I cannot imagine that in an Islamic context.

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So just to it's a very different field that you're

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getting from from these settings actually.

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However, then if you think of Paradise more as a manifestation on Earth,

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and you think of plants that's quite similar, they're always in bloom.

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It's always lush. As we know...

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you know, if you think of Adam and Eve, fruits are abundant,

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they are available and no one is hungry.

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So that applies to both settings.

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In Islamic gardens you have...

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there are actually depictions of Babur gardening.

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And that's that's why we actually think about

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gardens as duty of the emperor,

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because it's really described in his biography as such.

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And it is it might surprise that it's that way,

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but you really can see him with a sort of rake

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being active in the garden.

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So even as an emperor, he takes that duty on him.

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And it is, in a way, a divine duty.

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It's a divine duty that he has to do that on earth.

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To order, to organize, to ensure that there's justice and that is labor.

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And I think this is the duty of the emperor that comes in

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that we might actually not think of when we look at the Taj Mahal.

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But once you see that miniature of him...

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of Barbur standing in this very regimented,

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of course, Islamic garden that's blooming.

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It's lush, but it is because of him.

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That's the implication.

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So that definitely is an idea of Paradise

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or this garden being worked in the Islamic context.

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But the Christian context, I actually don't know too much.

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And I would even go so far as to say I don't think that labor there is implied,

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but maybe that's a huge difference between the two settings.

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In the Quran,

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you have a very specific idea of what happens when you come to Paradise

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and what happens to the people who arrive there,

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how what kind of treasures they're going to find.

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And that continues to food and abundance and company of people.

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So this idea of community is there very much.

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And this, this, this might

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actually mirror royal feasts or settings,

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you know, where you have music involved, where you have a place.

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And this, this whole idea about entertaining and achieving

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also happiness on a divine level in this context.

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But that could be very well imagined by someone who's reading the Quran.

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And to connect, I think, to this

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there there are descriptions of gatherings

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and and especially of achieving these treasures.

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So that's very much part of the idea of Paradise, which on earth again,

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in the Mughal setting, it's interesting because we know so much about the Mughals,

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because we have these beautiful miniature paintings that describe these

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divisions of of course, this is courtly propaganda as well.

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We have to take that with a grain of salt.

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Distribution of money, you know, the weighing of the emperor

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on his birthday and then giving to the people.

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Of course, these are huge propagandistic actions if we see it in a modern light.

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But also back in the day.

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I think this is this connection of receiving

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a gift for your just behavior, something as a subject.

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And I think one thing that's really important is that everybody has a place.

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So in Paradise, in Islam,

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you do have a place in this whole context.

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You do have... you are part of a hierarchy.

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If you look at the layouts, they are all watered.

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So all these parts

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receiving of water, and that really is very important in arid regions.

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If you think of Central Asia, Iran, it's really a setting where you have a

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well manicured lawn, you have a lush, lush

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vegetation that all year round is green.

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And then next to it you have desert.

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And the only reason why this is actually possible in cities

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like Yazd, I'm thinking of Yazd, Isfahan, Shiraz.

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It's because of the canal system and the irrigation that goes back

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to pre-Islamic period actually, but is considered in legal texts

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as well in in the Islamic world as part of good governance.

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And that usually is always described as a reflection of God on earth.

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These gardens are the result of just governance and the presence of God on earth.

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If you think of

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Utopia, for me that's something more futuristic, actually.

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That's something that has not existed in the past

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and therefore has a certain hope in it that Paradise doesn't.

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Because Paradise to me seems very codified.

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But Utopia could be everything.

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It does not include a divine intervention.

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It could be a human creation in the future.

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A fantastical one.

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Whereas utopia feels like a creation.

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Whether it's an artificial intelligence creation, a human creation,

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or a, you know, a natural phenomenon, for instance.

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I would see that devoid of divine intervention.

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I'm guilty of thinking of Paradise in a very codified way,

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because I think I'm studying this and I'm an art historian.

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So everything I do is, I think in terms of the art historical knowledge

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I have of these, and especially with Paradise, it's so strongly codified.

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And also it comes with images of places I'm thinking of, really of the Taj Mahal.

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But the notion of of losing Paradise.

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Of course, this...

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I don't know

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if primordial is the right word, but it's this essence of Christianity.

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And I have to be a bit personal.

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I think the difference for me is that I'm not Muslim,

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so I don't when I read about Paradise in an Islamic sense,

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I know for me, this is out of cultural curiosity.

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When I read... and I grew up Catholic.

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So when I hear about ‘Paradise Lost’, I'm suddenly enmeshed in all these,

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you know, duties and and

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hardships one has to suffer because of Paradise Lost.

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It's somehow I feel much easier reading about an Islamic Paradise.

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And I also find it's it's for me, it's probably more

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the idea of Paradise without the duty that one has as a, as a Christian.

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So I feel I actually can't liberate myself,

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really, from this Christian idea of Paradise Lost.

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It's very much there.

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Paradise and Hope relate to me

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in a very specific sense, because I'm working on reconstruction,

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on preservation of heritage at war in Ukraine,

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but also in Syria and at the moment in Lebanon.

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So for me, really, memory is so much part of that work, where memory often is

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shared by a community that had to leave home, that is a diaspora community

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and that connects via rights,

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via really traditions, via shared cultural

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heritage, intangible heritage like music, performance, dance.

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And the hope really lies for me -

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and that's again why I'm doing the work I'm doing with these communities -

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is to look at how that then can help to rebuild.

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And it doesn't mean specifically in the place that you left,

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but rebuild community, rebuild history in a way, rebuild your memory.

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And this is such a direct connection for me that the performance of intangible

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heritage is really remembering your elders in a way...

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Remembering...

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If you think of Mali and Timbuktu and how the mausolea there are

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covered in mud every year in this tradition.

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That's what I mean between connecting memory, hope and future.

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And for me, hope is always the future.

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And it really... if you look...

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If you talk to Ukrainians, for instance, to opera singers like I did,

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they teach the future generation in Ukraine because they...

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They don’t think about it,

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they do it, because they believe so much in the continuation.

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And I think this hope is something

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so strong that...

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really whatever hardship you have...

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If you think about Syria, for instance, you can overcome it.

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If you reconnect, if you rebuild.

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And so for me, this is so real actually.

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And maybe that could be an idea of Paradise on Earth, in a way,

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this reconstruction of of home, of memory in the future.

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And that's hope to me.

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I love this idea of a Paradise being a garden.

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But I think in my Paradise it's not an organized garden

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because I love disorder in gardens.

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I think that a lot of, you know, especially

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when you think about biodiversity, and I think my garden has to be when...

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my Paradise is when we're ecological problems are being taken care of.

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And, you know,

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there is no exploitation, exploitation of soil and mining and all these things.

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So it's really a Paradise

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where no one actually looks under the ground for oil or diamonds,

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any of these things that might strip Paradise of its vegetation.

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It's funny because I'm thinking of Paradise

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in a, in a vegan way where you don't eat animals

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and where death and murder,

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in that sense of killing an animal, are not necessary.

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And this is my

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idea of Paradise.

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All my friends are there so we can eat together and just

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be together and enjoy ourselves and not have to go home

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or live on another continent or be in another time zone.

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All these things are completely leveled out.

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And it's it's a very simple idea of Paradise I admit.

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There are no palaces, there are no structures.

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It's always sunny and nice.

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Thank you for listening

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to this episode of the On Paradise podcast series.

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Please explore other episodes by searching for On Paradise

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at podcasts.ox.ac.uk.

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Goodbye.