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Hello and welcome to the OHP Africana and South Asian Mosque Series.

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Please join us to let everyone think is wrong about the subthemes African and South

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Asian mosquitoes and the values and education of our public policy journalists.

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Being one in 10 to 11, 2021, together,

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we as students begin to acquire our traditions and studied in your American institutions by

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investigating institutions and the way our traditions present these philosophies and beyond,

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we intend to participate in ameliorating deficits in representation and resources required to transform our minds.

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That decision was snatched at Evergreen. We'd like to thank Professor Zohar so much for joining us today.

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And now he's going to provide us with an introduction to his book. Put simply, according to the Buddhist,

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at the root of human suffering lies deep discord between how we ordinarily conceive of reality and how he truly is.

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Major factors in actively creating and maintaining this accord,

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our language and the way in which our conceptual scheme pass attempt to fix is permanent.

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In this really hold on to what is, by nature, a fleeting and fluctuating stream of events.

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In this respect, language is not merely a veil that obscures true reality, but forever an active force.

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According to some Buddhist philosophical schools, the casual element involved in its fabrication,

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it is the metaphysical workshop in which entities are forged and once produced are earnestly believed to be real.

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Language of form is part of the disease. But inevitably, it is also part of the cure.

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This is because, on the one hand,

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while Buddhist Ford is underlined by a deep devaluation of languages means for representing, describing or reaching reality.

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On the other hand, in so far, it is required for any so this so this discourse language is viewed as necessary for liberation.

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The staunch anti realism of some Buddhist schools deprives language of its obvious reference and Buddhist

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views regarding the basic in express ability of the ultimate reality further undermine its status.

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But at the same time, Buddhist Ford faces the need to uphold the meaningfulness not just of ordinary language,

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but of the often overtly metaphysical Buddhist discourse itself.

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At the heart of Buddhist philosophical thought, Zen lies the paradox that is language.

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As a consequence, Buddhist philosophical texts present a palpable tension that arises from the

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inherently paradoxical need to argue against words by using words to devalue language

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through language resolving or at least in some way containing this tension was

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arguably one of the main challenges confronted by Indian Buddhist thought.

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The story of which can indeed be told through the successive strategies and solution employed by its various schools to meet these challenges.

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This book focuses on the ingenious response to this tension that one Buddhist school in one of the early Indian yoga charts for its sixth century CE,

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roughly in one tinkering, particularly steer, Marty proposed fruit sweeping claim that all language use is in fact metaphorical picture in Sanskrit.

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Over the last several decades, so-called metaphorical turn proposal,

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propelled by a scholarly fascination with the fundamental role that metaphors play in our

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concept formation is explored the implication of a similar pun metaphorical picture.

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In a sense, this fear, ethical trend curse metaphor is a substance that is in many ways like in the air we breathe

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all pervasive and essential to mental life and transparent to us most of the time.

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What if it seems to be transparent?

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What if our awareness were awakened to the metaphorical nature of nearly everything we see, including our most prosaic utterances?

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What if our language that reef of dead metaphors in the memorable image coined by the linguist Guy Deutscher suddenly came alive?

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The ogasawara, this book argues, workin' You're aware of this overwhelming pervasiveness of metaphor,

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as well as of the philosophical benefits of being made aware of it.

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Exploring the profound implications of the school's pan metaphorical claim,

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the book makes the case for viewing the Ogasawara account of metaphor as a broadly conceived theory of meaning linguistic and perceptual,

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one that is applicable in the words of the 6th century you, which are thinkers tirumurti both in the world and in texts.

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This theory of meaning, the book argues, allowed you to try to carve out a position that is quite exceptional in the Buddhist landscape,

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a position that views ordinary language as incapable of representing or reaching reality,

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but at the same time justifies the meaningfulness of the schools on with the physical and civic discourse.

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This scheme, the book demonstrates bears in our interpretation of the yoga cherub by radically reframing the schools

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controversy with the Mahdi Army Corps the Middle Way school by reinstating the place of zero mufti,

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who is known for his commentaries as an innovative thinker in his own right,

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and by establishing the importance of the school's contribution to Indian philosophy of language and its

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potential contribution to contemporary discussion of related topics in philosophy and the study of religion.

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In this respect,

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this book is also about the wider Indian philosophical conversation about meaning that took place around the middle of the first millennium in India.

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Although some of what the yoga drawings had to say about metaphor was highly innovative.

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The reflections on this issue should be understood against the backdrop of is conversing with specific

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theories of meaning put forward by such non Buddhist schools as the mumps denier and the grammarians,

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especially bartra heart by grounding the yoga charas pun metaphorical claim in its broader intellectual context.

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Both Buddhists and Buddhist, the book covers an intense philosophical conversation about metaphor and language that

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took place in India during the time and which reached the cross sectarian lines.

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This picture is reframes.

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The usual depiction of the Buddhist fort of the period is somewhat isolated and less engaged in exchange with normal Buddhist philosophical schools,

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integrating formal analysis of Indian philosophy with the history of ideas.

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The book was functions as an argument for a deeply contextual consideration of Buddhist philosophy,

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one that looks beyond sectarian demarcations and traditional narratives of sexual transmission.

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Even in this early period. Finally,

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then this book is about how Buddhist thinkers reflected on and understood the metaphorical

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function of language and about when a forced meaning do within Buddhist philosophical text.

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Figurative language is palpable, oblique present in Buddhist philosophical texts in general and in the yoga law in particular,

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ants are a relatively few existing studies of this topic.

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And when theorising these studies tend to appeal to contemporary philosophical and literary theories of metaphors.

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In the present study, by contrast,

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I attempted to reconstruct the body of theory and metaphor as formulated by Buddhist thinkers that is using their own terms as much as possible.

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My hope was that this book provides readers of Buddhist philosophy with refreshed scholarly

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perspective for appraising not only the overall Buddhist understanding of language,

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but also more concretely or particular metaphors operate within this text.

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OK, so hopefully a good starting point might be to understand the context and circumstances that shaped your book where she

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rose from the purpose of the projects for you and your readers and hence your intended audience in writing this work.

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This might have its on style and language and direct readers to further resources and discussions.

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Essay or less familiar so that they can have this modest investigation that you provide.

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These circumstances might also issued by your methodological choices, which came up in our seminar and just more discussions.

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And as that connotations and associations may differ between discrete fields, which was also kind of like a feature of our free seminar group.

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Because it's Buddhist studies, it's a few lots and people from all different backgrounds,

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so we can understand basically the parameters of your choices and the significance in the context that you're

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engaging in and the topics you intended to address and how this actually affected your process itself,

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which can be methodology, presentation or language.

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So we've kind of take a few questions to get it that Katie has the first question to ask.

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Yeah. So we thought we might approach this through thinking about the title of your book.

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So we were hoping that you could tell us any like deliberations regarding the title and how the project of the book came about,

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especially kind of the very delicate discussion of selecting and translating the charas metaphor

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and your kind of intended projects and your audience and maybe kind of publishing forces.

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And we were wondering why use metaphor and not chara in the title and how important it is to you?

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And how does it relate to kind of your motivations for publishing the work?

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I don't mean this kind of too profoundly, because I know that any translation from atom,

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from Sanskrit to English will usually kind of alter the meaning, sometimes quite dramatically.

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But translating is a tricky business, and I remember being in the title of your PhD dissertation.

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And so I was wondering why metaphor and not Ipaja in the title of your monograph?

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Yeah, OK. That's thank you.

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That's a great question. A lot of questions, actually, and it's and it's great because we rarely are asked about the process of of the work.

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It's always the product that is at stake and the process is really important.

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Yeah. In choosing. I'll start with the question of the title and choosing metaphor.

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There are, of course, market forces. Right. It's the or the the publisher requires the the audience that you want to to appeal to.

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And Petra is. Is the notion or is a word that needs explication and explanation, and you need to read the book in order to understand it.

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And you want to approach audiences that will have an interest in the book to begin with.

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But this is not just a marketing decision. It's way beyond it has to be translated.

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The picture has to be translated. A thesis is something that you know is written to a very limited readership.

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The professional expertise, readership. It's something, you know, a little bit like a driving licence.

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In a way, it enables you to write the work that you really want to do.

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So there are different considerations there and in translating will picture to metaphor.

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There is actually the rationale is deeply tied and connected to the entire motivation and rationale of this project.

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But in order to to explain that,

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I'll have to go back and tell you a little bit about about the motivations for the project and how it came about and the process.

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And that might take hours. So I'll try to do it very briefly and just, you know, tell me if I if I start rambling too much about it.

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But all these questions are connected, so I was my training.

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Was in philosophy in Western analytical and phenomenological tradition,

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also in cognitive psychology and in Indian philosophy as well from very early on.

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And I was intrigued when I did my Ph.D. at Columbia University with the literary.

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Aspect or philosophical of Indian philosophical texts?

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That is the various uses of figurative language and analogies and true styles in order to get a philosophical argument or a message across.

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And this is not just in texts where figures or analogies replaced arguments that serve.

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This actually is something that turns the argument into something more complex, more layered, more interesting.

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And I was intrigued how Indian thinkers conceived and understood their own use of these tropes and styles and figures, and so on.

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And I went searching through that and I didn't find much.

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I found what I found was. Let's say the trodden roads dealing with Buddhist hermeneutics or on the one hand or the the issue

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of a pile of skilful means right when metaphors and analogies are ever used as a tool for teaching,

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for getting the message across, or they are involved in discussions of hermeneutics and interpretations, which are very closely related.

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And there was a lot of engagement with analogies, tropes, metaphors, but there were always content oriented.

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That is, they deal with specific the content of specific metaphors, what they do to the argument, how they develop it.

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And I had a sense that there must be more than that.

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I was almost convinced that the little boy had very little evidence, so the best thing I could, I mean the best metaphor to describe it.

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It's not the very Buddhist metaphor, but is it is is a hunting expedition or fishing?

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You know, it was more of going fishing at the beginning, but then going on a hunting expedition and trying to find the context in which Buddhist,

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formulated or discussed theoretically their own use of literary instruments and means

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in philosophical texts with the understanding that they wouldn't do that explicitly.

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In the sense they would say, here is where we discuss literary aspects or philosophical texts because it's not in any kind of Buddhist,

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formal philosophical discourse. It doesn't fall under a manner that is epistemological fury.

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It's not. We don't have an early Buddhist the theory of aesthetics, an unconscious draw.

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It comes very late. So it would have to be implicit.

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It would have to be something that will have to be dug or excavated, maybe even reconstructed in the texts.

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And A. Kind of. Earlier on, I stumbled upon Stuart Monty, who's a sixth century commentator, a yoga teacher,

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a commentator is much more than that actually is a very bright and unique, innovative thinker.

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And in a way, he's a person that is responsible, at least to some extent, in creating what we call here,

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which are a school of thought that is integrating and synthesising a lot of texts from from a

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roughly delineated tradition that until then was not did not have that kind of sectarian identity,

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I would say. But anyways, to throw money, apart from being very bright and interesting in his commentary on value bundles,

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work treaties and 30 vs. car actually presents a view of what he calls up charro, which roughly can be translated as metaphor.

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We'll get to that later on, but which he claims that all language is metaphorical.

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And the context series overtly linguistic.

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It has to do with the theory of meaning, it has a discussion of the reference of words or preferential relations,

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but also of consciousness and of cognitive imposition superimposition and so on and so forth.

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So it was a very interesting discussion that involves philosophy of language, Buddhist geology and philosophy of mind,

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all in a commentary to a single verse in Vasudevan, those treaties where the term or Potrero was only mentioned once.

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So it's it's kind of his contribution where he also integrates stuff from other schools, some of them non Buddhist.

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So this was mind blowing in a way for me, but then I said, your money didn't operate in a vacuum.

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You know, we had it. It had to. You didn't invent the might be innovative.

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It might be original. But of course, he's using concepts and terms.

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He's a traditional commentator in some kind of ideas that probably floated around or are taken from other texts.

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And my hunting expedition was actually trying to reconstruct or trace or find the

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context in which these ideas came from or thrived or worked with or responding to.

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And this involved moving and growing concentric centres around steer them.

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That is trying to reconstruct is context.

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And basically exploring almost the unknown in that sense.

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And what was interesting to me, I started doing that as a Ph.D. student is that what I found was.

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Was surprising, it went against all my expectations as a good trainee in Buddhist studies,

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because I would think that ideas come to the yoga cha because it's a Mahayana philosophical school from Mahayana sutras,

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and maybe some of these ideas come from the Abbey Dharma and some of these ideas or concepts or notions come from the Pelikan or canonical materials,

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earlier materials and. And that wasn't what I found.

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I found the term Potrero specifically in in the use of metaphorical or figurative designation.

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Is not found in the public, and he has very little presence in the Mariana Sutra was related to the yoga cha.

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On exception is the Lanco Sutra, but is ubiquitous in the Abbey Dharma texts,

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especially of those who Bando and in non Buddhist schools of thought deny mumps the grammarians that use it in the same sense.

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In the same kind of meaning,

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which is overtly philosophical in the context of theories of meaning and has to do with referential relations and the meaning of language,

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and uses same, very similar terminology, formulaic phrases, examples, even stock examples.

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So there was this kind of family resemblance of a discourse between Buddhists and non Buddhists around the same time the cross sectarian lines and.

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Pointed out there might be a different conversation going on here in a different context to construct.

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And this is what I tried to do. No, sure, sure of worse and any time.

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I think you. We do have some more questions about the section of the tape about it,

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but I'm just tracing the trajectory and wondering kind of chronologically, was it that you kind of like noticed an absence and.

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A specific exploration of the type of use of this treatment.

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And then you found Sarah Massey first, and the piece was outstanding because it sounds outstanding like a sandwich found based on one first and

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then afterwards you found similar text in the drama side by best here and in the many months as well.

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Or did you come across some disparately and connect them retrospectively?

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You know, it's all a blur. Not exactly, but.

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But what I remember is I remember that I didn't find anything for a long time or I found too much in a way, you know,

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we we share our successes, we never share our failures in our dead ends and and places where research and our hypothesis kind of crashed.

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And basically, I was shooting again that metaphor, but I was aiming everywhere and I was looking everywhere as I had this huge documentation of it.

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Although any terms that refer to figurative language and there is a lot in Sanskrit,

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I was working mostly in Sanskrit and Tibetan because these are languages that are most proficient in.

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And you know, there is upper char, but there is opium, which is simile, and you have rupiah, which is in hyper bowl roughly OK.

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And you have there's is Sanskrit.

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There is a huge stock of terminology for any kind, any figurative language, and it changes also in between genres and between theories.

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So I'll encourage Shastra theory of politics would have kind of a different use for terms than,

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let's say, shastra philosophical discourse and living within Shastra,

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you would have people using terms differently and you have the same terms that are used completely in different other senses,

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for instance, or Pujara has a wide, has a huge semantic range.

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It means different things in medicine. It means different things in astronomy.

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It means different things in early Buddhist or poly materials.

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Pujari itself, by the way, is a metaphor. It's an approximation, it's something that comes close to nothing.

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So I had all these and really couldn't kind of, you know, it was.

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Kind of mapping a huge a huge field.

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And part of that being a little bit clueless in a way I spent I had a year of fellowship,

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by the way, is the American Institute for Indian Studies in India,

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where I read some Sanskrit and worked the manuscript and where I spent the summer a very hot summer.

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I know you have a heat wave now in. In England, so you can kind of.

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Imagine how it was in Puna in the summer,

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sitting at the Deccan College script to use the Sanskrit Dictionary script for you Project Sanskrit Dictionary Project Script Oreum,

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which is an ongoing, huge and admirable project that for a Sanskrit dictionary and by the way,

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grateful to stuff there to Dr Part and Doctor and Professor Sethi and other people.

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That helped me, but I was sitting in that hole, you know,

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under the fans and basically going over slips of paper index cards that the compilers of the dictionary compiled of collecting

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all the various Indian words or foreign names connected to to a certain terminology and just trying to see what terms are there,

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you know, just trying to map the the field.

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And then I've noticed the recurrence of Jupiter in the sense of figurative designation metaphor maintaining a wide range,

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but that it comes again and again and again.

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In that sense, in just Greek discourse that is in the works of the Maya, in the works of the mums and in and in the literature.

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So actually,

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I used it was the dictionary that pointed out to me that you petroleum might be termed the crosses sectarian lines and is something that is used.

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In the notion of figurative designation in an overtly philosophical context that is not very much interested with the content of metaphors,

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not so very much interested in the aesthetic effect of metaphor, but is interested in their semantics and pragmatics.

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I knew of Sarah Matta earlier, but I never noticed this central city.

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I've read the text. But it didn't occur to me that this notion is so central to it.

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And then I went back to studio audience and said, OK, this is the crux of what I'm looking.

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This is the ethics, and now I need to figure out how it came about.

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So I didn't start with zero, Martha, I got to steal money in the middle in a way,

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but then it became a stable for point, a kind of comedian point for which to lift my entire.

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I think this is fascinating because I think it addresses a lot of our questions as well.

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It seems really difficult, a mammoth task.

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And and also it seems like that process itself affects your philosophical reading of the text, and so it's really insightful to close this today.

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I think we often don't stress methodology and also can be analytic philosophy

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and especially when you do in cross-cultural discourse like limited resources,

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perhaps it can be particularly relevant. And so that's why it's such a concern of us and.

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I think you've kind of addressed some of this, but I'm I'm also wondering, given these horses, this metaphor of the hunt,

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like you had this idea and you trying to look into it to investigate, but you also had some strange but quite specific disciplinary background.

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And I kind of have a similar ish, the same background and happened to be like somewhat prepared to engage with the discourse like I had.

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Some say same philosophy and find shelter like it's been a graduate level and my dad was carrying a guitar with a lot.

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And it did my undergraduate thesis in a similar area and very fortunately had topics specifically on some of the methodological

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concerns you address and are very specific questions you raised in philosophy language that I think exclusively.

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I've read addresses and it's kind of inadequately addressed in.

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Well, I had studied at the undergraduate level, so I kind of with the cohort,

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came prepared and very excited to find someone like magically answering all these things.

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But given there are tonight monks and nuns and people with cuts like history or theology, but you also had your specifically give specific background,

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but then you published a book, we were wondering, given that disparity when you actually were working on the books publish.

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Look to him when you trying to speak in publishing the book and how did that affect your presentation of the book?

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Because it ranges a lot and it covers lots of material. Mm-Hmm.

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And I think it provides a great foothold to understanding, but.

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What what do you have in mind? Hmm. Great, great questions.

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I'll probably say that to all your questions, but it is OK, I'll say something.

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You know what? I'm thinking about doing Indian philosophy.

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So I realised through the years that my background influences a little bit the way I'm thinking about it.

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I had earlier training.

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I never had a B.A., a bachelor degree, but I had a master's degree in some programme at Tel Aviv University in Tel Aviv University.

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Philosophy department is unique, was unique and is still unique in the sense that since the mid 60s,

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it incorporated Indian philosophy and Chinese philosophy and Muslim philosophy, you know, middle age and mediaeval, Muslim philosophy and so on.

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Into the curriculum is where they were taught alongside analytical and continental traditions without any questioning,

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without any apologetics in a way as legit philosophical traditions that can be, you know,

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if we can study Plato as a history of philosophy, we can also study Nagarjuna.

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And and for me, that was kind of natural.

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And only when I went out and I did my bit to the religious studies department did I understand how philosophy,

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how this state of affairs is not, you know, is not natural or is not what is practised in philosophy departments across the world.

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It's changing, has changed and is changing rapidly actually right now.

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But in that sense, I was always writing or thinking in both worlds and to both of the audiences.

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You know, it's not just writing for the analytical, thoughtful analytical philosophy,

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the Anglo-Saxon analytical tradition and to the Indian or to the Buddhist studies guys.

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But it's thinking of all of them both or in these crowds or in this context while writing.

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So I don't do that kind of binary to begin with, although I am aware that there is different readership.

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So I would say that if the book addresses or is intended for a different audience, it's mostly the book and the footnotes.

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These are basically I wrote the book is two different books because there wasn't a conscious decision that it's important to be important for me.

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To be clear, to be lucid, I think that you cannot.

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There's nothing too complicated to explain that you can't explain to people who are not experts in the field.

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If you do that, you know, if you know exactly what you want to say and you and you do that in a gradual way.

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So it was important for me to be very clear in my explanations and not to lose the force

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of the argument and the trajectory of where I'm going and the ideas I'm developing.

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And that meant pushing a lot of stuff into the footnotes where where the main theological work is done,

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the one that is addressed to a kind of Buddhist studies,

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linguistic and experts and so on, and where the support is done in a word, the evidence where I bring on the evidence.

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So the book is mostly a kind of a. Developing argumentation,

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the support is in the footnotes of logical work is in the footnotes and also the branching off to different fields is in the footnotes,

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where I flirted with the phenomenological tradition a little bit with deconstruction as well.

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And. And luckily, my publisher at Oxford University Press and my editor went along with that.

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You know, there is a tendency which is very much understandable to try and cut footnotes and so you know, and make a book less less dense.

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For contemporary readership, but she went alone along with that, and actually it enabled me to have these two books in parallel.

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So the expert might find the kind of detail and support that she requires.

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And it wouldn't say a lay reader think, you know, someone would pick up the book and read the Buddhist theory of metaphor.

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Kind of, you know, it was a book for a flight or something.

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But but for grad and undergrads, hopefully and people of the field that can kind of go through it with the footnotes or that you score.

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I don't think it's just an Oxford thing,

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but especially the philosophy of saying it doesn't contribute towards an argument like we put it in the footnotes.

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And so I tweeted that it graciously. I think that kind of touched a bit as well.

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Kind of on the next question that might be a sign of this kind of section.

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I'm sorry for interrupting. I just remembered something.

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Go ahead and maybe ask that at that later on because you are also about the nuns and monks, and I forgot to address the.

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Go ahead. Go ahead. OK, sorry.

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And I just wanted to say that the but the book is not, you know, it's not kind of a philosophical reconstruction or it's not just a theological,

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it's also deeply invested in Buddhist terminology and understanding of the past and so on.

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And. It's by no way engaged Buddhism,

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but but it was very important for me to show how the kind of questions that Buddhist that were

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important to those Buddhist thinkers and that it went beyond just issues of philosophical issues of,

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you know, getting the storm epistemology right or meaning of language, right?

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But you cannot really understand Buddhist philosophy in the ogasawara without

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understanding their superior logical motivations and the issues they were engaged with.

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And the whole book is kind of directed to the sixth chapter, which deals with the issue of incommensurate ability.

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She's a kind of a classical, philosophical questions for 20th century philosophy.

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But it was a palpable difficulty for Buddhists, who wanted to address the issue of how a layperson and a Buddha can converse in a meaningful way.

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Despite the epistemic abyss that lies between them.

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And so it's not just the. You know, disengage or a disembodied philosophical question,

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it has to do with the basic theory logical no to religious motivations of Buddhists in presenting those questions.

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So. I don't think that you can write about Buddhist philosophy without thinking about what interested interested these thinkers as Buddhists.

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So I think the book well, by addressing that and with suffering when it retreats.

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I think as well, we sort of met my friends, by Chinese way, but as philosophy to other philosophers,

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we always emphasise strategy and how it's inseparable from understanding and what's going on.

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And I think also the understanding of, say, to urology and what that means to this comes to light more specialities kind of shred, shred.

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Let's get rid of some of our western preconceptions of what that might mean, which we think perhaps we'll soon talk about,

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which I think also maybe at the end is where we talk about some of the social concerns that come from epistemology.

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It kind of shows that you can't have separate logic or anything from the way we live in the world.

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And sure, we sometimes one question I have to follow up on.

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Straddling three disciplines that perhaps wasn't ever really starkly these for you is that with your methodological approach,

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that's kind of an synchronic. You see him in my sweater to take a dress, central issues in both fields, the methodology that you pursued.

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So I was quite perhaps an alternative avenue for cross-cultural conceptual philosophy.

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Then the folk genealogical approach and that itself come back to stark historic hysteresis and contemporary,

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animalistic philosophy while mostly developing and into textual conceptual history.

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It may be kind of a museum like intellectual history approach that sometimes the imprint itself in the field.

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But studies in the fields have studies that we might find in the Oriental Institute.

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We are enterprises and so.

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Often, though, you know, those issues aren't discussed in those fields of study either,

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and you take the time to explicitly discuss your methodological sense concerns and make them more transparent,

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and that also makes them more available for critical reflection. And so I was wondering basically if you could elaborate on why you did do that,

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why those choices are significant beyond helping you figure out a way from what sounds like a very difficult,

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widespread search itself to make progress and how that affects the quality of your exploration rather than just going along with what?

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What's the done thing in the field? Hmm. Thanks.

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Well, I'll answer first. The methodology is important, and it has to be explicit.

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You know, it has to be critical. It's part of the philosophical. Endeavour, in a way that methodology is explicit, is stated,

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is open for criticism and is out there in in the context of what we're doing is

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extremely even more important because of the colonial and post-colonial heritage

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and context and with the fallacy that we sometimes have that we can pick up

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materials that Charles and others that are so removed from us in time and in space.

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And sometimes in culture. And that we can basically treat them as transparent.

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That is, as is accessible to us, as something that we can do fine and extract meaning they wish.

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So there is, I would say, first attitude that needs to be of kind of respect to the text that is in way of.

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I respect that is expressed in the effort.

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That one is making to. Come to the takes is possible.

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In the text own terms rather than one ones on the terms, in a way,

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try to figure out the kind of hermeneutic or theoretical framework that the text requires of ones rather than imposing your own on that.

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So. So that's a basic methodological issue that is experienced in basic discussion of hermeneutics in the 20th century and not just,

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you know, Buddhist did that from the first century and later on.

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But you know the question of how you approach otherness.

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And the text here is.

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Another, you know, not just because of being in Sanskrit and and from the first century CE, but basically any kind of text in any.

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Instance of otherness. So there is the question of how do you approach otherness in a way that doesn't impose your own bias and prejudice?

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You know, how do you kind of aspire to a fusion of horizons in the American way?

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So there are all these hermeneutic all considerations to take into account.

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And then there is a specific context of which I've mentioned of Indian text,

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you know, sitting at the Sanskrit script for whom is is American funded student,

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you know, capitalising in a way on the work of people that worked on the dictionary but still hasn't published it in a way.

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What is my position, politically, socially scholarly in that context?

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What do I do in order to make that context explicit?

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And the way it affects my reading and my enter into practises of interpretations and so on.

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So that's also a thing to consider.

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And then there are plainly the empirical constraints of what to do with Indian materials on which we have very little information.

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Apart from the text itself, we don't know much about the offers of those texts.

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We don't know much on the periods in which they were composed or in the dating.

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We don't we know very little about their practises or related practises, how they will read, read or when by whom, in what context.

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You know, all this is kind of the work of. Guesses and conjecture is and it's based in most cases on very little hard evidence,

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but on philological and hermeneutic all schemes and evidence, right?

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The dating, for instance, of those who bundle the dating of serial multi day into Textual Connexions,

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how texts are related to age, which schools are related to age?

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It's all kind of guesswork to a large extent that is based on theological and interpretive interpretative schemes in a very circular circular way.

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This is how the field is. Now this can be taken to be lamentable.

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That is, you know, we're working with no evidence. We're actually kind of the outsider guessing.

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But it's not that bad in a way, because when you look at the way that Indian thinkers, Buddhists and others.

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Pursue the work, this is something that Ginevan Canary written beautifully about.

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So you see that the most significant context for them was over texts.

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There were not so interested above biographies and about dating and so on,

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but worked in an intellectual arena in which other texts were the significant in that sense and questions of origins and into textual.

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The direction of intellectual borrowing are important, but they are not critical in that sense.

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More critical is the reconstruction, the reconstruction of this intellectual context.

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That was important for those offers when they created zero ideas and written the works.

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And this can be done also within Synchronic.

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Scheme, not just that plainly dire chronic one in the I think that the challenge is to reach

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a kind of a fine balance between a dire chronic scheme and a synchronic scheme.

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In doing this work, using whatever dire chronic data is available but not neglecting the way in which texts reverberate.

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Echo deal we've referred to extract from other text without having a clear direction for intellectual bar.

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And I think that explicating the methodology in this case is important because otherwise.

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You know, you create a false presentation of your material.

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You either create a two kind of a robust and firm narrative of textual transmission and and the way that

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ideas passed or something that is too loose and both are kind of something that is very hard to work.

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So it's a kind of a realistic to my understanding depiction of the situation in which we operate, but which is not necessarily bad or lamentable.

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They'll answer your question, is there something else that I should ask you to?

390
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:45,020
Now, I think there could quite quite beautiful.

391
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I think the thing that we've discussed and noticed is perhaps like how some of your methodology

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and your approach generally reflects also on the philosophy that you are demonstrating

393
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that this is just reminding me of like the openness of interpretation and language and the

394
00:53:02,540 --> 00:53:09,820
possibilities for that approach that you kind of talk about in the book itself as well.

395
00:53:09,820 --> 00:53:25,850
And so. It's probably a good time to move on to ask a bit more in depth about methodological questions that arise not great seminar.

396
00:53:25,850 --> 00:53:31,360
Before we approach how to make the book's arguments and ideas more accessible,

397
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:41,860
this episode is about accessibility and we do another episode in more detail about ghosts and into subjectivity and things I said at the time.

398
00:53:41,860 --> 00:53:48,440
Do you want to add anything for we move on your hands? Not yet.

399
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:58,760
Not yet. OK. So basically here would like to relate our first questions to the topic,

400
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:04,040
just discuss it based on your methodology that reaches out in concentric circles,

401
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:12,380
as you already mentioned and from selected based on this correctly and parameters based on time period.

402
00:54:12,380 --> 00:54:16,400
And also in other intellectual characterisations,

403
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:27,160
how are we to balance seeing this is a good char compared to a ceremony, conceptual history and how much can we take?

404
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:38,540
Ceremonies rising to represent our thoughts when you seek to challenge the commercialisation of flight schools and traditions, and this works,

405
00:54:38,540 --> 00:54:46,540
so you kind of address the blurriness, try to perhaps get that some dynamics to think about what's actually being presented to us.

406
00:54:46,540 --> 00:54:55,130
So how do we balance like his students? You are encountering that tradition of this station being challenged,

407
00:54:55,130 --> 00:55:05,270
how to continue using the traditional terms and like the escalations that hawks hawk into the school scheme while also using them to develop

408
00:55:05,270 --> 00:55:15,950
new and not yes agreed upon approaches because they obviously have really useful things like catalogue of references like shorthand.

409
00:55:15,950 --> 00:55:24,400
But sometimes that can also misconstrue what's going on is perhaps challenging as well.

410
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:30,340
And so how do we use them without misconstruing what they potentially represent and what would your advice

411
00:55:30,340 --> 00:55:36,380
be to students in the field and training at this time that's going on about how to grapple with that?

412
00:55:36,380 --> 00:55:52,000
Yeah. Well, I would advise students to relax a bit in the sense that the question is important and it's pertinent to everything that we do.

413
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:56,260
But there is no view from nowhere, right?

414
00:55:56,260 --> 00:56:10,960
We're all we're always equipped with certain baggage of terminology, presuppositions and and notions in our research apparatus.

415
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:23,250
And so the only concern should be whether we're critically attuned to the way that we use.

416
00:56:23,250 --> 00:56:38,070
You know, or conceptual and terminology go terminal, logical toolkit and whatever, and where this is appropriate or adequate to our subject matter.

417
00:56:38,070 --> 00:56:50,030
So. I use, you know, the book is a kind of an argument in a way a little bit against the use of schools.

418
00:56:50,030 --> 00:56:54,240
Right now, Indian darkness, as you know, the kind of the this is the calm,

419
00:56:54,240 --> 00:57:03,470
but I use names of schools and I use the category of schools, but the kind of the proof is in the pudding in a way,

420
00:57:03,470 --> 00:57:12,290
I use it in a way that points out that it's better to be to the we address them as, for instance,

421
00:57:12,290 --> 00:57:24,420
textual traditions like Burhan Patel and Larry McRae are suggesting, which is a very good suggestion.

422
00:57:24,420 --> 00:57:33,990
And specifically about the ogasawara, I mean, one of the arguments of the book is that your guitar is a constructed thing.

423
00:57:33,990 --> 00:57:42,510
You know, the yoga teacher, the term yoga teacher is something that appears very early.

424
00:57:42,510 --> 00:57:53,730
Referring to meditating monks, the Yoga Yoga Tribe Issues is a very well-known paper by Jonathan Silk about that.

425
00:57:53,730 --> 00:58:02,010
And that may be are centred around this initial mammoth of a text called the Yoga Chopra Bhoomi,

426
00:58:02,010 --> 00:58:08,970
the foundations of the yoga practise and yoga practise, and so on and so forth.

427
00:58:08,970 --> 00:58:19,290
But it doesn't stand for a kind of a sectarian scholastic tag identity tag that we use Yoga Chopra for now.

428
00:58:19,290 --> 00:58:29,850
They use yoga teacher and now the think first instance that we have.

429
00:58:29,850 --> 00:58:43,900
The use of yoga as a school is a distinct mine and a school is in the army context, the the Mahdi Army carried the air in the Dhaka Jwala by Vivica.

430
00:58:43,900 --> 00:58:51,520
Which is the Luxor graffiti, right, and this is where you have your guitar, the docks, some graphical label.

431
00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:59,690
It talks about the guitar and he refers mostly to the your guitar boom is a text.

432
00:58:59,690 --> 00:59:10,810
Yoghurts are thinkers like a Sangha invisible, though do not refer to themselves as yoga, and they do not use the term so your money as well.

433
00:59:10,810 --> 00:59:18,620
So they refer to themselves as Mahayana, usually.

434
00:59:18,620 --> 00:59:25,220
Connected to various sutras, maybe to various doctrines, but never as yoga teacher.

435
00:59:25,220 --> 00:59:31,970
So this is a way, you know, and so it's basically what is your batteries and use by Chinese?

436
00:59:31,970 --> 00:59:43,570
Commentators and translators and later, by the Tibetan tradition, call it the only school symptom.

437
00:59:43,570 --> 00:59:49,510
So this label, yoga terror is something that we're actually using, you know,

438
00:59:49,510 --> 00:59:59,090
in order to navigate within this sea of doctrines and schools and identities and so on.

439
00:59:59,090 --> 01:00:09,680
That is is a label. But then when you look at the yoga on this textual tradition or sectarian or whatever that you call yoga try,

440
01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:12,920
you see that basically you have different strands.

441
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:25,220
And where this turns into a real school is in the works of commentators like Sarah Monty and Don Paula.

442
01:00:25,220 --> 01:00:36,380
Maybe, but you know where they kind of weave different takes that are very different sometimes in terms of their doctrines or in their views,

443
01:00:36,380 --> 01:00:46,760
into a coherent whole and under a kind of roughly unified textual tradition or a lineage of transmission.

444
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:51,770
And you can see this work going on in the commentaries.

445
01:00:51,770 --> 01:01:01,160
Resolving contradictions, bringing doctrines that do not sit so well together and merging them and so on and so forth.

446
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:07,940
So this work of philosophical identity is something that is on the go.

447
01:01:07,940 --> 01:01:16,090
It's being done through the ages. So.

448
01:01:16,090 --> 01:01:28,460
But we have to use this terms, this notion is, you know, yoga charter schools and so on in order to kind of.

449
01:01:28,460 --> 01:01:37,130
Navigate within this world, but we should use that critically, and you risk the click and instrumentally that is not verified,

450
01:01:37,130 --> 01:01:40,850
and this is where the yoga teacher philosophy and Buddhist philosophy, you know,

451
01:01:40,850 --> 01:01:46,970
comes into the the fore in that sense that these should not be raised like this should not be.

452
01:01:46,970 --> 01:01:51,020
You know, I say that language is a kind of a metaphysical workshop,

453
01:01:51,020 --> 01:01:59,720
so our philosophy making should not be that kind of workshop in which we create identities and then believe in the reality.

454
01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:08,420
So we use your literature, but we kind of explicate that and this is what the book is trying to do, uses these terms,

455
01:02:08,420 --> 01:02:16,160
but tries to critically engage with them and present the kind of a thick description

456
01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:22,190
term I'm taking from her apology actually of these terms and of these uses.

457
01:02:22,190 --> 01:02:31,260
The book promotes or leans on a very fundamental notion of meaning as a function of its use.

458
01:02:31,260 --> 01:02:38,270
Right. We can stay. We can change and sing, but also yoga teacher thing in in a sense.

459
01:02:38,270 --> 01:02:48,020
And I think that we should approach these categories with the same, the same framework.

460
01:02:48,020 --> 01:02:56,810
In mind. And the same goes, you know, for using the term metaphor.

461
01:02:56,810 --> 01:03:06,860
But your career didn't really answer your question before, so I'm not evading and kind of now I'm kind of dealing with that, you know?

462
01:03:06,860 --> 01:03:13,490
So why translate petrol to metaphor? Is a petrol, really?

463
01:03:13,490 --> 01:03:14,330
Metaphor.

464
01:03:14,330 --> 01:03:24,650
Well, not really, because, for instance, the reason the picture does not distinguish between measurement, medicine or synecdoche or metaphor.

465
01:03:24,650 --> 01:03:35,300
And it doesn't map well or necessary or exactly to the way we're using metaphor.

466
01:03:35,300 --> 01:03:39,620
But let us ask, how are we using metaphor when we're saying metaphor?

467
01:03:39,620 --> 01:03:44,960
What exactly is it that we mean? Do we mean metaphor in the Aristotelian sense?

468
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:56,550
Do we mean metaphor in Davidson's sense? Or do we talk about conceptual metaphor like lack of an Jonsson sense, which is completely different?

469
01:03:56,550 --> 01:04:05,940
Right, so metaphor is itself a term that, you know, we say, OK, when you call a boy a tiger, that's a metaphor.

470
01:04:05,940 --> 01:04:11,130
That's a picture for the Buddhists or for the Sanskrit.

471
01:04:11,130 --> 01:04:13,800
So in that sense, we can say that metaphor is in the chart.

472
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:22,610
But when we unpack metaphor and when we unpack with Petra, we start to see the differences.

473
01:04:22,610 --> 01:04:34,230
So we have an option not to translate, you know, to kind of create singular systems of meaning and terminology that are isolated.

474
01:04:34,230 --> 01:04:47,740
And that kind of subverts the idea of dialogue and the idea of understanding to my ear and also of, you know, kind of the cross-cultural encounter.

475
01:04:47,740 --> 01:04:56,500
The other option is to translate and to assume that they're, you know, that terms will not overlap.

476
01:04:56,500 --> 01:04:57,520
Exactly.

477
01:04:57,520 --> 01:05:10,420
That there wouldn't be a kind of, you know, that there would be deviations in meaning and to explicate and to present that and to make that explicit,

478
01:05:10,420 --> 01:05:18,310
that is to make it into a description to show how meaning is within use of that system.

479
01:05:18,310 --> 01:05:26,100
And I think that's the the greatest benefit that we get from this kind of.

480
01:05:26,100 --> 01:05:34,680
Cross-Cultural engagement with philosophy, apart from uncovering and explaining our implicit presuppositions,

481
01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:38,840
it's also this kind of descriptions that.

482
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:49,340
Make us understand that we know now what is or try to understand what is Petro, but in a sense, we understand more.

483
01:05:49,340 --> 01:05:55,640
What is metaphor in our own? Whatever that may be, system will fall.

484
01:05:55,640 --> 01:06:04,450
Yeah, I mean, to perch, I think. The article that he shared with her sister, I think an example of that and with dealing with different systems,

485
01:06:04,450 --> 01:06:08,890
especially to bring out like Plato parallel example,

486
01:06:08,890 --> 01:06:21,340
the spark and the insight that can come from brushing different systems together and to make use of terms and different theories more explicit to us.

487
01:06:21,340 --> 01:06:30,420
So I think I think you see what the talk basically. Yeah, I think so.

488
01:06:30,420 --> 01:06:34,730
You think so. Relatedly,

489
01:06:34,730 --> 01:06:43,400
we were wondering about your reasons for restricting your study to Sanskrit sources and restricts doesn't really feel like the right word

490
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:55,220
because it's such a vast undertaking in itself that a member of our cohort shared some terms like hunter nidus and a real eye opener,

491
01:06:55,220 --> 01:07:00,980
which also referred to metaphor or figurative language and lecture.

492
01:07:00,980 --> 01:07:07,790
Also, Dr Matthew Osborne wrote a review of your work and commented on how you didn't work with Chinese yoga resources.

493
01:07:07,790 --> 01:07:12,800
And I feel like these comments are important to address in our discussion of your methodology.

494
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:17,270
For me, though, there's this sort of critique has to come with an acknowledgement that there's this

495
01:07:17,270 --> 01:07:22,400
pressure in academia to be multilingual and use all relevant sources available.

496
01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:31,070
And I know that in Buddhist studies in the UK, there's this huge emphasis on textual scholarship and comparative philology.

497
01:07:31,070 --> 01:07:40,070
And I think that being able to read all of the extant versions of a text or group of texts in multiple languages is a great principle in theory,

498
01:07:40,070 --> 01:07:45,380
but a really high expectation to hold people to in practise.

499
01:07:45,380 --> 01:07:50,750
Yeah, and then this is free and interdisciplinary. It's the other side for me.

500
01:07:50,750 --> 01:07:56,540
First philosophy in England and British philosophy institutions.

501
01:07:56,540 --> 01:08:05,540
Sometimes there is a special emphasis on language learning, on languages, on English anyway, especially early on.

502
01:08:05,540 --> 01:08:13,310
And despite the fact that translations like we've been discussing can make an important difference to arguments,

503
01:08:13,310 --> 01:08:21,320
and your work demonstrates that you're committed to a tech strategy and strategy, so integrate your thoughts and quality.

504
01:08:21,320 --> 01:08:30,230
And let's see. Like I said, professors who think to basically say that there can be technological innovations to help us with this,

505
01:08:30,230 --> 01:08:32,510
like big dictionaries of how words have been used,

506
01:08:32,510 --> 01:08:41,060
kind of like the online version of the Sanskrit and the compilation that you've been working with or

507
01:08:41,060 --> 01:08:48,200
something you trust the experts and different traditions of translation things in different ways.

508
01:08:48,200 --> 01:08:58,240
And so how have the languages we were given? We focussed on Sanskrit and you are aware of all the different.

509
01:08:58,240 --> 01:09:04,480
People who are involved in influencing ceremonies in the UK and development,

510
01:09:04,480 --> 01:09:17,730
how did what you chose to focus on influence your theory development, especially my idea and philosophy of language.

511
01:09:17,730 --> 01:09:24,740
And what medium did you consider like or could you share with us what medium advantages so Marty would

512
01:09:24,740 --> 01:09:31,170
have actually been engaging with that would have been engaging with the Chinese translations as well?

513
01:09:31,170 --> 01:09:38,290
And how would that affect as well? How do you think about the outputs in the theory that you developed?

514
01:09:38,290 --> 01:09:46,030
Yeah. Well, of course.

515
01:09:46,030 --> 01:09:57,180
They're having as many languages, proficiency, language proficiency in many relevant languages as possible is great.

516
01:09:57,180 --> 01:10:15,150
No, it's a good thing to have, but life is short and full of suffering, and there is a certain amount of what you can either learn or do so.

517
01:10:15,150 --> 01:10:21,480
Unfortunately, unfortunately, I don't read Chinese or Japanese.

518
01:10:21,480 --> 01:10:30,090
So to begin with, my focus was on Sanskrit and Tibetan translation, mostly.

519
01:10:30,090 --> 01:10:36,370
So that was a kind of a constraint.

520
01:10:36,370 --> 01:10:49,510
Which started my my project and for me was more important to advance in my thinking or progress in the project rather than take,

521
01:10:49,510 --> 01:10:57,630
let's say, four more years and study Chinese property.

522
01:10:57,630 --> 01:11:10,290
But of course, there's the one should aspire to know as many languages as possible and to read texts in, you know, in older versions.

523
01:11:10,290 --> 01:11:18,140
But, you know, knowing languages doesn't necessarily train you to read the texts.

524
01:11:18,140 --> 01:11:32,560
That is. There are issues of interpretation of hermeneutics, theory or philosophy, so that training is no less important,

525
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:44,660
no, you re being able to reconstruct or get a text physiologically doesn't mean that you can understand it.

526
01:11:44,660 --> 01:11:50,240
And then what about in what traditions should you train?

527
01:11:50,240 --> 01:11:55,190
Should you be proficient in Buddhist hermeneutics?

528
01:11:55,190 --> 01:12:05,040
Read Buddhist texts, for sure. What about 20th century hermeneutics, right, in the tradition before?

529
01:12:05,040 --> 01:12:11,640
Well, not necessarily because you are working within the tradition and within that terminology?

530
01:12:11,640 --> 01:12:21,960
And what about philosophy of language, epistemology, metaphysics and a little touch of phenomenology, you know, to add, wouldn't hurt you.

531
01:12:21,960 --> 01:12:29,370
So there's no limit actually to the kind of expertise that one requires in order to do a good job.

532
01:12:29,370 --> 01:12:39,880
The question is what are you aiming for and what is necessary and what is less pertinent to your project?

533
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:46,210
So for me to begin with, I was interested in a specific question.

534
01:12:46,210 --> 01:12:54,250
And I found a case study, which I found was fair, which I thought was fascinating, which was zero.

535
01:12:54,250 --> 01:13:02,020
And then I asked the question, You know, I went, as I mentioned in concentric circles trying to do you know,

536
01:13:02,020 --> 01:13:09,250
the basic underlying question was why does your party say that in how he came to say that?

537
01:13:09,250 --> 01:13:16,780
What are were the reasons, the motivation? What does it serve and by influence of what?

538
01:13:16,780 --> 01:13:26,020
What is new, what he took from other people and.

539
01:13:26,020 --> 01:13:32,440
And that that kind of questions set the boundaries of where I looked, you know,

540
01:13:32,440 --> 01:13:40,690
and the text that I picked up and how far I ventured in trying to answer these questions.

541
01:13:40,690 --> 01:13:48,670
So the Chinese tradition professors are awesome, but the comment is to the point you know,

542
01:13:48,670 --> 01:13:55,750
that there are there is a lot of yoga teacher materials that were translated into

543
01:13:55,750 --> 01:14:02,770
Chinese and a lot of engagement with metaphor in that sense and with this fury.

544
01:14:02,770 --> 01:14:08,950
And it's highly relevant. But these are later materials or not later material.

545
01:14:08,950 --> 01:14:18,090
They construct their own kind of. Tradition or way of thinking about yoga,

546
01:14:18,090 --> 01:14:28,890
Chara made its commentators and people that translators and their commentators in Zaire create their own kind of system of thought,

547
01:14:28,890 --> 01:14:35,010
which is fascinating. But I was not qualified to deal with it because I don't read Chinese.

548
01:14:35,010 --> 01:14:45,600
And secondly, it would take a second book to do that, and I think I'm kind of expecting Professor Osborne to do that, and then I'm waiting for that.

549
01:14:45,600 --> 01:14:51,870
I think it would be an important and wonderful contribution.

550
01:14:51,870 --> 01:15:04,850
You know, in dealing with the the kind of the hermeneutic call and textual conception of the early Chinese tradition of the overthrow.

551
01:15:04,850 --> 01:15:11,420
So that data in respect to the Chinese materials,

552
01:15:11,420 --> 01:15:20,750
they also took a lot from the way that Stuart Amati defined his own context surrounding sets himself within a

553
01:15:20,750 --> 01:15:30,170
certain lineage of transmission in which those who bundle my tree up Maitreya Sun and Vosloo bundle are included.

554
01:15:30,170 --> 01:15:40,070
And he addresses opponents from other Indian schools like Daniel and the mom, so without naming them but specifying the doctrine.

555
01:15:40,070 --> 01:15:53,060
So this is already kind of contoured the context that came into consideration.

556
01:15:53,060 --> 01:15:59,350
The I think the other constraints is that one has to stop at some point.

557
01:15:59,350 --> 01:16:06,910
You know that this that you have to kind of decide where to end things and my.

558
01:16:06,910 --> 01:16:28,240
After constructing a kind of context that seemed coherent and cohesive and self-contained and kind of evidential and in, you know, support the.

559
01:16:28,240 --> 01:16:35,940
Mum, my point of of ending this project was once presenting the kind of arguments fought

560
01:16:35,940 --> 01:16:42,560
for extracting the kind of arguments that I thought were pertinent or important.

561
01:16:42,560 --> 01:16:49,520
And this is where I drew the line, I could go on and on. You know, I could even I don't have to venture into Chinese materials, for instance,

562
01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:57,520
the 8th century there is a kind of explosion of takes on Alan Carr car shastra.

563
01:16:57,520 --> 01:17:02,680
Buddhists as well in a way or influenced by Buddhism,

564
01:17:02,680 --> 01:17:13,330
which deal powerfully profusely with various terms of figurative language, and I could do what I'm doing a little bit now.

565
01:17:13,330 --> 01:17:18,400
You know, dealing, for instance, with Buddhist Korean literature, I'm now working on entrepreneurship.

566
01:17:18,400 --> 01:17:29,920
The Buddhist poet and philosopher and could work on figurative language there and his use of literary tropes for philosophy or philosophy,

567
01:17:29,920 --> 01:17:36,610
for literature and so on and so forth. That was also a natural context in a way.

568
01:17:36,610 --> 01:17:43,750
But one has to draw the line and I drew it around.

569
01:17:43,750 --> 01:17:49,690
Kind of coherent context I could draw.

570
01:17:49,690 --> 01:17:54,360
Spinning or revolving around serial for.

571
01:17:54,360 --> 01:18:03,920
Thank you. Yeah, but learn your language as well and do whatever your professors tell you to.

572
01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:12,230
They all have different opinions. Yeah, I think that's who these were also taking these stocks in place, right?

573
01:18:12,230 --> 01:18:20,240
And you have to make philosophical arguments or any argument at some point and not even sometimes.

574
01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:31,020
I think some of the theological disputes can be evasive to saying anything useful on the philosophical side.

575
01:18:31,020 --> 01:18:39,150
I think actually we've managed to address a number of things that we had wanted to ask about and simple questions,

576
01:18:39,150 --> 01:18:52,260
so I'm going to try and synthesise pieces and maybe we can talk about some of the topics that we discussed for like implications of the theory.

577
01:18:52,260 --> 01:19:04,300
So this this question to me, like if there's anything you want to add about this and it's just the realists assumptions that.

578
01:19:04,300 --> 01:19:12,790
A similar between, say, the new philosophies attached to you and your success, your own fitness,

579
01:19:12,790 --> 01:19:20,060
and even with this life, a number of fitness and content families feel the a of.

580
01:19:20,060 --> 01:19:32,590
Mainstream European philosophy. I'm going to kind of maybe get back into iTunes later and see basically the point

581
01:19:32,590 --> 01:19:36,910
is that you don't write in with terms that analytic philosophies of language,

582
01:19:36,910 --> 01:19:39,670
can I say not necessarily at this familiar.

583
01:19:39,670 --> 01:19:51,250
And at the same time, much your American let's take philosophy precedes upon realist assumptions that frequently themselves aren't articulated.

584
01:19:51,250 --> 01:20:00,880
I say dominant that many such folks this narrow already may be made consciously aware of to articulate or to defend this sentence.

585
01:20:00,880 --> 01:20:10,150
Or I can go it right, incredulous bombing philosophy, or even considering reasoning without such grounds.

586
01:20:10,150 --> 01:20:14,710
Well, maybe this is just in our philosophy that I've encountered. So in this way,

587
01:20:14,710 --> 01:20:20,680
such a philosopher might not be prepared to engage with philosophy is the challenge realism or to

588
01:20:20,680 --> 01:20:28,090
encounter the same terms used beyond a realist in Maine or outside of realist idealist dualism.

589
01:20:28,090 --> 01:20:32,620
And this might indicate the limits of clinging to our original categories and frameworks

590
01:20:32,620 --> 01:20:38,500
in pursuing cross-cultural expansive philosophy and kind of just how to do that already.

591
01:20:38,500 --> 01:20:46,840
And. So just talking about how to have more protected philosophical approaches more generally.

592
01:20:46,840 --> 01:21:00,760
But one example that comes up is the preoccupation mainly with modern thinkers, with the guitar idealism in question,

593
01:21:00,760 --> 01:21:10,480
which you briefly address and say that it can be corrected for any policy reasons that have to do with this because it might be.

594
01:21:10,480 --> 01:21:16,450
I think it might be like a symptom of our realist preconceptions, which suggests the text,

595
01:21:16,450 --> 01:21:23,500
and we would like to discuss this after addressing what we don't really, I don't think need to address.

596
01:21:23,500 --> 01:21:28,940
Turns it right and my glossary.

597
01:21:28,940 --> 01:21:39,670
So to continue this trend, Fort Campbell, the have been your American and philosophies and peace to use his aides to

598
01:21:39,670 --> 01:21:46,670
understandings entries to the in-stadium language games and metaphysical nonsense,

599
01:21:46,670 --> 01:21:52,580
or continue their dirty and deconstruction 14 year patriotism.

600
01:21:52,580 --> 01:21:59,600
It's just a it's too engaging with Indian philosophy and perhaps the fact that you've come from a department that did this

601
01:21:59,600 --> 01:22:07,370
more effectively than some others or in places where it's more new since world around and contemporary philosophy from which,

602
01:22:07,370 --> 01:22:15,350
how do we navigate that usefulness as little inlets? And this is why this is just an add on, because you addressed this a lot success in the US.

603
01:22:15,350 --> 01:22:21,380
You want to say there is the potential of forcing non-native or MSHA systems

604
01:22:21,380 --> 01:22:28,730
upon distantly or other texts because distance really doesn't fit similarity.

605
01:22:28,730 --> 01:22:30,970
But it seems, and this is my concern,

606
01:22:30,970 --> 01:22:38,040
and we spend a lot of energy as a group trying to match the antitrust fees to our own categories at risk of placing

607
01:22:38,040 --> 01:22:47,210
their potentially transformative potential and the understanding that each outsider and tax profile systems.

608
01:22:47,210 --> 01:22:53,690
And so by developing new charters terms, you might be sympathetic to this concern.

609
01:22:53,690 --> 01:22:59,660
How do you recommend navigating using terms from a range of philosophies to achieve it?

610
01:22:59,660 --> 01:23:05,000
Transformed into these are all throughout this space as anything else you want to say.

611
01:23:05,000 --> 01:23:09,070
These are a lot of questions, different questions, though.

612
01:23:09,070 --> 01:23:15,920
No, it's all of them are good and great, but I'll ask you to prioritise,

613
01:23:15,920 --> 01:23:21,650
you know, tell me what is most pertinent because I could and then I would lose.

614
01:23:21,650 --> 01:23:28,280
Also, the, you know, I might not be focussed at all.

615
01:23:28,280 --> 01:23:31,880
I think we're hoping to come back to realism after addressing this.

616
01:23:31,880 --> 01:23:36,320
So that was a little preamble. So we could pop out now.

617
01:23:36,320 --> 01:23:42,870
Sure. And I guess the question is how to.

618
01:23:42,870 --> 01:23:52,470
It allows our heuristic devices to be transformative of our understanding, which nobody approach to school,

619
01:23:52,470 --> 01:24:04,730
but like tools vs. forcing screening upon something else which you have talked about before, I'm any anyone you have.

620
01:24:04,730 --> 01:24:14,520
And you're asking in a way how we're not our kind of engagement with these terms does not obliterate their transformative power.

621
01:24:14,520 --> 01:24:18,930
You're talking about specifically about imposing analytical discourse, for instance,

622
01:24:18,930 --> 01:24:25,720
on Indian discourse in that sense and in philosophical discourse or generally in philosophy.

623
01:24:25,720 --> 01:24:31,160
How do we maintain the transforms formative our philosophy?

624
01:24:31,160 --> 01:24:38,960
Yeah, I think I mean, I think this could be like a case example where there limits just just have to be unless you have,

625
01:24:38,960 --> 01:24:47,270
like some example, kids in my mind, I have not think of what your is on the young people do.

626
01:24:47,270 --> 01:24:59,360
But there are books in in the domain of recent philosophical like the European angle European philosophy that use those devices specifically as well.

627
01:24:59,360 --> 01:25:05,000
And they have their limits and. And so.

628
01:25:05,000 --> 01:25:13,490
In a sentence like how do we. And at what point do we make the jump from the terms that we use is entries to.

629
01:25:13,490 --> 01:25:21,590
Transformed like the actual conversation, so how do we explore things side by side, basically united side by side, just together?

630
01:25:21,590 --> 01:25:30,370
Mm hmm. And you're talking about the transformation of the conversation off of persons, you know of the philosophers.

631
01:25:30,370 --> 01:25:38,140
Or both? You're talking about making a difference in the discourse or about transformative.

632
01:25:38,140 --> 01:25:46,090
Just just to be to see that I'm I'm clear about what you mean.

633
01:25:46,090 --> 01:25:53,140
I mean, I would see the answers. Hand in hand.

634
01:25:53,140 --> 01:25:59,870
OK. They could. But if you don't, it's fine, I mean, I love.

635
01:25:59,870 --> 01:26:08,750
OK, so I'll pick this up as a question about transformation. OK, in a way.

636
01:26:08,750 --> 01:26:13,170
I'll try to answer and tell me, if I'm answering you, I'm not sure.

637
01:26:13,170 --> 01:26:23,090
OK. You know, one of the.

638
01:26:23,090 --> 01:26:29,210
The book, in a way, is about the limits of language and expression.

639
01:26:29,210 --> 01:26:32,780
Right, it's it's it's a book on that question.

640
01:26:32,780 --> 01:26:44,250
And more more specifically, it's about the Buddhist devaluation or ambivalent, sorry ambivalence towards language because language is.

641
01:26:44,250 --> 01:26:56,820
No misrepresents, falsifies or cannot represent or touch or reach true reality on the one hand, but on the other hand,

642
01:26:56,820 --> 01:27:08,220
it is necessary for liberation in so far that it is necessary for any kind of sadistic, which is also philosophical.

643
01:27:08,220 --> 01:27:17,060
Also this. So, so that potential, you know, youknow,

644
01:27:17,060 --> 01:27:33,470
so faced potential is intrinsic to language that it can be something that is very, you know, that is informative.

645
01:27:33,470 --> 01:27:44,650
But it is something that is transformative as well, and this possibility, this potential that was very, I think, visit.

646
01:27:44,650 --> 01:27:53,420
And present to the Buddhists when they dealt with language is also something that.

647
01:27:53,420 --> 01:27:58,780
It's possible for us in our philosophical discourse.

648
01:27:58,780 --> 01:28:04,270
And I think that you can present the spectrum of philosophers.

649
01:28:04,270 --> 01:28:13,550
Not dividing now into, you know, movements and streams to analytical versus continental and to deconstruction.

650
01:28:13,550 --> 01:28:26,000
And so on, but thinking about thinkers or even ideas that you can kind of place them on the spectrum of how they consider their own philosophy,

651
01:28:26,000 --> 01:28:31,320
making something that is trans transformative or not.

652
01:28:31,320 --> 01:28:45,640
And in what ways? Is it is being clear, lucid, analytically kind of immaculate?

653
01:28:45,640 --> 01:29:01,500
Creating the the the the most the the let's say that is more effective in terms of transformation or effect or is it a kind of rhetoric that.

654
01:29:01,500 --> 01:29:16,330
You know, it creates a feeling a mood, a sense of understanding an intellectual environment that is more effective in that sense.

655
01:29:16,330 --> 01:29:24,240
I'm just giving examples, you know, I'm kind of I'm playing here.

656
01:29:24,240 --> 01:29:35,100
And what is unique about Buddhist philosophers that I think they were very consciously and.

657
01:29:35,100 --> 01:29:44,160
Explicitly, we're working, we're very aware of this.

658
01:29:44,160 --> 01:29:49,980
Potential of language of this double language is a double edged sword.

659
01:29:49,980 --> 01:29:57,960
And they explicitly acknowledge that and it was something that accompanied their philosophising.

660
01:29:57,960 --> 01:30:05,920
That is it was on the table, it was it wasn't something implicit, it wasn't something they were very open.

661
01:30:05,920 --> 01:30:17,770
About the the the stakes of philosophising involved in philosophising of how is philosophising or is

662
01:30:17,770 --> 01:30:27,400
connected or not to transformation or should or should not be connected to linked to transformation.

663
01:30:27,400 --> 01:30:32,810
And this is something that I find very compelling.

664
01:30:32,810 --> 01:30:41,080
Compelling also, because it's explicit and it's critical and brings something that is often very much implicit,

665
01:30:41,080 --> 01:30:44,090
something that remains in the, you know,

666
01:30:44,090 --> 01:30:57,410
in the in the in the back room or philosophy, some philosophical systems into the foreground and deals with that explicitly and open to criticism.

667
01:30:57,410 --> 01:31:03,670
And there is something more appealing if what you.

668
01:31:03,670 --> 01:31:17,980
You know, if one joins the philosophical journey as a way, or at least for its transformative power, its power to transform minds,

669
01:31:17,980 --> 01:31:32,600
thinking outlooks, understanding of the world sources, something you know, something appealing in that as well.

670
01:31:32,600 --> 01:31:40,670
Should it be more prevalent and explicit in contemporary philosophical discourse, I think it should.

671
01:31:40,670 --> 01:31:47,910
I think it is in many forms of philosophical discourse, but I think it should be.

672
01:31:47,910 --> 01:31:51,880
I don't know if I answered your question.

673
01:31:51,880 --> 01:32:00,100
I think you're getting to we're you get to speak for us and we also kind of have and we will have an episode in a series

674
01:32:00,100 --> 01:32:07,350
dedicated to what's best and we can hopefully I never probably reached the end of our time that talked a bit about it.

675
01:32:07,350 --> 01:32:11,510
Perhaps I have. Security is the question.

676
01:32:11,510 --> 01:32:22,420
And then maybe we can talk about these ramifications a bit more based on a you want to say and then perhaps to the specifics.

677
01:32:22,420 --> 01:32:29,290
But I think, yeah, talking about my body will be important, especially because it's there them.

678
01:32:29,290 --> 01:32:38,890
So one thing that really stood out to me when I was reading the book is that you seem to mimic the argumentative strategy of yoga thinkers.

679
01:32:38,890 --> 01:32:47,950
So, for example, you don't get too stuck on the historic debate of yoga and idealism.

680
01:32:47,950 --> 01:32:51,820
All externality that yoga cha- a challenge of other external objects.

681
01:32:51,820 --> 01:32:55,930
Two things exist independently for the mind outside the mind.

682
01:32:55,930 --> 01:33:00,790
You mentioned that historic debate in your introduction, but it doesn't take centre stage,

683
01:33:00,790 --> 01:33:09,700
which I thought was really refreshing given how dominant the conversation is yoga chara idealist in the field so far.

684
01:33:09,700 --> 01:33:16,120
And I also notice this in your acceptance speech for the Toshiaki de Nomatter book award,

685
01:33:16,120 --> 01:33:20,830
where you responded to a paradox with reference to the three natures.

686
01:33:20,830 --> 01:33:28,150
So I was wondering whether co-opting the internal logic and style of yoga chara has been a conscious decision in your work,

687
01:33:28,150 --> 01:33:34,010
maybe even part of your methodology, or if it's just a stylistic choice.

688
01:33:34,010 --> 01:33:41,510
Hmm. That's a great question. Very observant.

689
01:33:41,510 --> 01:33:52,340
I wasn't aware that I was incorporating the Utah style of argumentation actually about Sochi the moment I didn't remember that.

690
01:33:52,340 --> 01:33:56,990
So it's kind of. So maybe I'm doing that inadvertently, you know,

691
01:33:56,990 --> 01:34:05,470
without noticing that it's kind of I've internalised that and I've turned into yoga charring without realising that.

692
01:34:05,470 --> 01:34:09,170
But but I say, whoa.

693
01:34:09,170 --> 01:34:17,240
But what I aspire to do is basically when I'm asked something about the yoga Chopra that is about their views,

694
01:34:17,240 --> 01:34:29,420
I am trying to answer this is the attempt of the book, you know, to formulate a theory of metaphor in as possibly in the orchestra's own terms.

695
01:34:29,420 --> 01:34:36,840
So it's all be asked about you, which are metaphysics. All first, try to think, what would you say, which are respond to that?

696
01:34:36,840 --> 01:34:46,040
And then I would think what I would respond to that. So I make a difference in that sense as to the.

697
01:34:46,040 --> 01:34:52,640
So this is about Toshi, the normative notion, no matter how I thought about it,

698
01:34:52,640 --> 01:34:58,310
because I read your question and I went back to the the the question was asked, actually?

699
01:34:58,310 --> 01:35:03,710
Was asked, I think by Adam Thomson. Maybe I don't remember. But he was asked.

700
01:35:03,710 --> 01:35:07,610
It was asked by then, but it was actually a more dynamic question.

701
01:35:07,610 --> 01:35:16,850
So Evan kind of presented them with the army point of view question, and I answered with a yoga teacher her point of view answer.

702
01:35:16,850 --> 01:35:32,070
So I was answering to his underlying dynamic logic in a way, and we were engaging in this kind of we were mimicking, I think, kind of.

703
01:35:32,070 --> 01:35:44,510
Bristol argument as to the the the issue of idealism is different, sir, in answering that, I'm not.

704
01:35:44,510 --> 01:35:49,580
I'm not really dealing with that, I'm not necessarily I'm I am reliant on the material,

705
01:35:49,580 --> 01:35:58,180
but I'm not giving you a literal response to that because the nature of my answer is that there isn't a yoga teacher.

706
01:35:58,180 --> 01:36:03,440
Our response to that and that is the most important thing for me.

707
01:36:03,440 --> 01:36:07,610
When I'm dealing with this question, I am mostly,

708
01:36:07,610 --> 01:36:23,960
I would say that I mostly use 20th century hermeneutics and literary theory for approaching this question, and I'm saying this question is not.

709
01:36:23,960 --> 01:36:36,470
Is not the kind of question that can receive a decisive answer without dealing with the context.

710
01:36:36,470 --> 01:36:45,320
The point of view from which the question is asked and whereabouts in which the answer is sort.

711
01:36:45,320 --> 01:36:51,890
You know, the environment and the textual environment in which we seek to to answer it.

712
01:36:51,890 --> 01:36:58,130
So asking the question in a car is a kind of a perennial philosophical question.

713
01:36:58,130 --> 01:37:12,140
You know, the idealist idealism versus realism is already superimposing a kind of historical, ideological, even intellectual framework.

714
01:37:12,140 --> 01:37:19,460
And on the subject matter, which is not necessarily responsive to that,

715
01:37:19,460 --> 01:37:26,120
it's a question that interests us in terms of the history of philosophy in those,

716
01:37:26,120 --> 01:37:33,020
let's say, starting from the 19th century in that sense or an 18th century, 18th century philosophy.

717
01:37:33,020 --> 01:37:41,120
So if you first, if you want to pose this questions about the longer term, we need to qualify it and people have qualified it.

718
01:37:41,120 --> 01:37:46,310
You know, they're done when they explain what they mean by idealism and realism,

719
01:37:46,310 --> 01:37:56,000
and they try to kind of, you know, it's more intricate and it is qualified.

720
01:37:56,000 --> 01:38:08,970
But then it really. But it presupposes a lot of servic principles is that there is a thing that is called your Kuchera,

721
01:38:08,970 --> 01:38:15,490
for instance, that when you asked this question about was one, do you have this kind of a school that has a stance, you know,

722
01:38:15,490 --> 01:38:22,250
a unified stance that you can say is over idealist or realists realise this is not the case.

723
01:38:22,250 --> 01:38:29,750
Texts that are distinctively considered to be a which are like the sections of the English are booming,

724
01:38:29,750 --> 01:38:34,670
for instance, the result of a booming, for instance, or touchable or at the bottom.

725
01:38:34,670 --> 01:38:43,700
The fourth chapter in the and the lack of a thorough sutra yoga Chopra related sutra and wushu one.

726
01:38:43,700 --> 01:38:53,730
Those treaties and 20 verses or in 30 verses have a completely different account of.

727
01:38:53,730 --> 01:39:04,760
I have a different, different ontological commitment in what they're willing to say on theologically or to commit to ontological.

728
01:39:04,760 --> 01:39:15,040
And they're all yoga. You know, the Bodhisattva, Bhumi, speaks about a verse to a thing that exists, that is inexpressible but exists,

729
01:39:15,040 --> 01:39:26,650
it's out there to something that later, you know, which are on materials would not necessarily be willing to say they're much more parsimonious.

730
01:39:26,650 --> 01:39:38,900
They will call it made the Harmattan that the such suchness, they'll say it's inexpressible, but they will not necessarily call it and just think.

731
01:39:38,900 --> 01:39:49,850
And the same, the Loncar, the Torah Sutra, which is much more idealist to my understanding, you know, in what we sense of subjective idealism.

732
01:39:49,850 --> 01:39:54,570
So. So in asking this question,

733
01:39:54,570 --> 01:40:02,340
how much are we motivated by our need to kind of try to figure out yoga charge within

734
01:40:02,340 --> 01:40:11,730
18 19 20th century debate rather than understand the yoga Chopra for what it means?

735
01:40:11,730 --> 01:40:19,260
So the question this question is tax specific. It's period specific.

736
01:40:19,260 --> 01:40:25,720
It's context specific, and it's worthwhile to ask it, but you have to qualify.

737
01:40:25,720 --> 01:40:34,490
In a way. And also, it's not a question that seems to be very much interesting for the yoga teacher.

738
01:40:34,490 --> 01:40:45,520
Itself. Could I perhaps bridge this into questions about ramifications of the theory of taking some time to that?

739
01:40:45,520 --> 01:40:53,750
Because although I don't think. This is taking your last point that it's perhaps not that concerned,

740
01:40:53,750 --> 01:41:03,550
but I could see how some of the concerns might arise from why people are preoccupied with.

741
01:41:03,550 --> 01:41:05,350
Whether it's realistic idealist,

742
01:41:05,350 --> 01:41:16,780
if that even could be a question in parallel with some of the debates that are sometimes generated is between your guitar and the my maker,

743
01:41:16,780 --> 01:41:20,410
and I think they both have the same concern for each other,

744
01:41:20,410 --> 01:41:29,090
like moral nihilism and say like someone might be concerned with idealism or that kind of notion that if everything is constructive,

745
01:41:29,090 --> 01:41:37,450
you somehow get solipsism. Why do we have any moral motivation to act and care about others if it's if they just constricts?

746
01:41:37,450 --> 01:41:42,460
And I think you could see the similar concerns arising?

747
01:41:42,460 --> 01:41:50,230
I know people like its pose, sometimes as your guitar facing that challenge to the mighty America.

748
01:41:50,230 --> 01:41:53,980
But I think the much armacost have that concern about the guitar.

749
01:41:53,980 --> 01:42:00,700
And I think some of your book and your following article as well that you shared with those addresses

750
01:42:00,700 --> 01:42:08,590
that and you could see the motivation to say and take this course and to make it meaningful.

751
01:42:08,590 --> 01:42:17,660
Likewise, you could say that the meaning of that arises from the fact that there is or that somehow

752
01:42:17,660 --> 01:42:27,880
arises the culture or discrimination and so on that that's all there is to solve the discourse.

753
01:42:27,880 --> 01:42:37,480
And so I'm wondering how we might explain what you might explain how the guitar or ceremonies

754
01:42:37,480 --> 01:42:45,820
specifically would address a challenge like that or why it's different to ask it to a matchmaker.

755
01:42:45,820 --> 01:42:53,620
Think of it since you're you're talking specifically about the ethical issue or the ramifications.

756
01:42:53,620 --> 01:42:57,910
Yeah. OK. Yeah.

757
01:42:57,910 --> 01:43:08,140
You know, so in continuation to call into your into intervention, so I don't think that the idealism question is not important or interesting.

758
01:43:08,140 --> 01:43:10,540
And it's been asked also in Buddhist contexts.

759
01:43:10,540 --> 01:43:18,610
It's not just a Western imposition or so, but it's one question that you can ask about your culture and not necessarily the only one.

760
01:43:18,610 --> 01:43:25,280
It's it's framed a lot in Tibetan context and.

761
01:43:25,280 --> 01:43:30,980
A in the discussions and debates between the yoga teacher and the AMI.ca there,

762
01:43:30,980 --> 01:43:43,570
it becomes a very important thing because it's something that distinguishes for the Tibetans yoga cha from them with yoga.

763
01:43:43,570 --> 01:43:51,700
You which are on, so let's get to do your training with the Army Corps debate you try and make them make a debate is often depicted as

764
01:43:51,700 --> 01:44:05,440
a debate on on metaphysics that is on the the ontological on how ontological commitment one is willing to be right.

765
01:44:05,440 --> 01:44:17,080
Do you withdraw? The dynamic is very parsimonious. It's actually not on theologically committed heads or supposed to have under some interpretations,

766
01:44:17,080 --> 01:44:22,960
no metaphysics or it's anti metaphysics in the ogasawara,

767
01:44:22,960 --> 01:44:31,930
in varying interpretations has some minimal metaphysical commitments to some interpretations.

768
01:44:31,930 --> 01:44:37,930
Actually, not so minimal. They're actually there are theorists right to say reality exists.

769
01:44:37,930 --> 01:44:43,360
And it's not just reality, it's it's a reality of the mind.

770
01:44:43,360 --> 01:44:54,580
It's consciousness for some interpretations in the book I try to show.

771
01:44:54,580 --> 01:45:00,970
And to give that show an alternative way of looking at this argument.

772
01:45:00,970 --> 01:45:10,780
For various reasons, also, because I think that sometimes this way of presenting the argument is not always accurate.

773
01:45:10,780 --> 01:45:14,210
And also sometimes it's too simple.

774
01:45:14,210 --> 01:45:25,160
You know, it's not really looking at the nuances and the intricacies of the arguments of both scored that were very sharp.

775
01:45:25,160 --> 01:45:32,720
You know, we're very kind of on their toes in this argument and this is Harry Reid ceremony and the of

776
01:45:32,720 --> 01:45:40,280
their votes commentator in understanding this argument that it's mostly not about ontology,

777
01:45:40,280 --> 01:45:47,790
but it's about language. And more profoundly about meaning.

778
01:45:47,790 --> 01:46:00,770
And the. Both of you which are in and Madhukar Mahayana, so they both adhere to emptiness of the intrinsic nature of some of.

779
01:46:00,770 --> 01:46:09,530
So they both will not argue for any kind of at time, the existence of any kind.

780
01:46:09,530 --> 01:46:17,800
But their debate is on the level or or.

781
01:46:17,800 --> 01:46:30,280
On the extent in which you are willing to describe in language or to commit in language to any kind of description of reality,

782
01:46:30,280 --> 01:46:40,510
the Mahdi Army Corps is parsimonious. It doesn't. It says that, you know, language is a kind of a closed system self-referential.

783
01:46:40,510 --> 01:46:52,720
It conveys no information about reality, and it's basically uses as a device of self-destruction itself.

784
01:46:52,720 --> 01:47:04,690
It's it's something that annihilates itself and in through this kind of sceptical undermining of language

785
01:47:04,690 --> 01:47:15,490
and of meaning kind of points out to liberation and to the ultimate truth and what is out there.

786
01:47:15,490 --> 01:47:25,540
So language is is the use of language is instrumental, and it's basically for something to manifest its own demise.

787
01:47:25,540 --> 01:47:35,820
If if you're willing and. To perform to us, to show to us the limits of language and force in that sense.

788
01:47:35,820 --> 01:47:46,770
And the yoga choice is is much more. Needs more needs, needs, language do more than that.

789
01:47:46,770 --> 01:47:51,580
This is because the yoga treasurer has a metaphor metaphysical discourse in any reading.

790
01:47:51,580 --> 01:48:04,610
I think even if it's idealistic. Idealist or not, you know, your guitar has some very explicit claims about the nature, true nature of reality,

791
01:48:04,610 --> 01:48:17,430
that it is normal to the least to the lose inexpressible, that it is reached in this level of the past.

792
01:48:17,430 --> 01:48:27,570
Can be minimal, it can be less minimal, but it has a core metaphysical discourse which needs to be meaningful.

793
01:48:27,570 --> 01:48:33,840
Not in the ultimate sense, because this course is always conventional, you know,

794
01:48:33,840 --> 01:48:41,550
words cannot represent reality, so only a kind of point out gesture in the direction of reality.

795
01:48:41,550 --> 01:48:51,800
So all discourse is conventional, but within that conventional discourse, you have to have levels or degrees of meaning.

796
01:48:51,800 --> 01:49:00,670
You have to have some utterances that are more meaningful than others.

797
01:49:00,670 --> 01:49:06,720
Or that you use more meaningfully than others.

798
01:49:06,720 --> 01:49:16,840
And. According to the yoga charter, a stalemate in this case, the MCA self-referential view of language is self-referential,

799
01:49:16,840 --> 01:49:30,950
is patently self undermining or involves a contradiction because they subvert or undermine the the.

800
01:49:30,950 --> 01:49:40,460
The very cook their own this course, very the very conditions of its meaningfulness when speaking.

801
01:49:40,460 --> 01:49:43,200
The Mahdi Army Corps would be.

802
01:49:43,200 --> 01:49:50,460
Happy to grant that they say, yeah, exactly, you know, nothing represents reality, and this is why this is why it's important to us.

803
01:49:50,460 --> 01:49:57,930
This is how emptiness is manifest. And this is what we aim for, but for the overcharge cannot grant that.

804
01:49:57,930 --> 01:50:02,940
They cannot grant there because they have a minimal metaphysical discourse.

805
01:50:02,940 --> 01:50:10,290
This course has to be meaningful, not patently self undermining and not self-referential in that sense.

806
01:50:10,290 --> 01:50:15,060
It has several levels of meaning and also they have agama.

807
01:50:15,060 --> 01:50:27,700
This is a thing that people tend to forget. That was a bundle in the Sungai except agama that is tradition testimony as a Promina.

808
01:50:27,700 --> 01:50:32,230
You know, we have the sutras, we have scripture.

809
01:50:32,230 --> 01:50:38,950
And what scripture says is interpretable, you know, we should stick with the meaning and not the words,

810
01:50:38,950 --> 01:50:44,180
but it's still a use of language that is liberating.

811
01:50:44,180 --> 01:50:56,770
So we have to grant that at least scripture, you know, though it's in language is conventional, conventional is more meaningful.

812
01:50:56,770 --> 01:51:00,940
Then ordinary discourse, redefined discourse.

813
01:51:00,940 --> 01:51:10,720
And that's the whole motivation to my understanding for the overture, a theory of language and then a debate with them at the Amica.

814
01:51:10,720 --> 01:51:15,490
It's their minimal metaphysical discourse and their adherence to scripture.

815
01:51:15,490 --> 01:51:17,710
It's a religious motivation.

816
01:51:17,710 --> 01:51:28,390
We would say today, you know, and the studies and their engagement with scripture, they're very much invested into hermeneutics.

817
01:51:28,390 --> 01:51:39,880
And these are not things that they kind of, you know, self-consciously decide to have in their debate with them at the Amica.

818
01:51:39,880 --> 01:51:46,960
This is how they developed as a school. This is what stearate already brings into baked.

819
01:51:46,960 --> 01:51:52,450
The tradition that they inherited her inherited from the early Dharma.

820
01:51:52,450 --> 01:52:02,350
There hermeneutics their approach to text to the on text, their minimal metaphysical discourse,

821
01:52:02,350 --> 01:52:07,930
and this is what he needs to protect, and this is why devises his theory of meaning.

822
01:52:07,930 --> 01:52:13,640
And this is why in historical. Account.

823
01:52:13,640 --> 01:52:23,090
All philosophical stances is important, not because, you know, we have to have, as you said, this kind of theatre view of.

824
01:52:23,090 --> 01:52:26,630
But in order to understand its deep motivations, you know,

825
01:52:26,630 --> 01:52:35,820
where is there muddies arguing for what kind of textual and tradition development of the end, the development of the tradition.

826
01:52:35,820 --> 01:52:42,930
You know, is in the in the context of argumentation.

827
01:52:42,930 --> 01:52:49,330
So. Given that that makes my honest schools.

828
01:52:49,330 --> 01:52:57,460
We might. And using that scheme so that.

829
01:52:57,460 --> 01:53:07,020
Both my John McCain and guitar have the same motivation to create human beings.

830
01:53:07,020 --> 01:53:14,970
I'm still nervous how much we can distinguish that it's still just whether or not it's a difference and.

831
01:53:14,970 --> 01:53:26,290
What way of teaching, given that at the church, perhaps they're still seeing these utterances as efficacious towards that goal is.

832
01:53:26,290 --> 01:53:32,650
Just a difference in opinion of what the most effective way to achieve liberation for all

833
01:53:32,650 --> 01:53:37,990
sentient beings is in terms of the teaching and how much were the press and critics say,

834
01:53:37,990 --> 01:53:45,860
well, that's by saying the emptiness of emptiness because to me, that is in line.

835
01:53:45,860 --> 01:53:56,640
Itself with a unitary theory. And someone might say at different levels of discourse, we abandon one theory for another for probably cemeteries.

836
01:53:56,640 --> 01:54:04,320
We use one at one time or another, and that doesn't seem incompatible to me with what, in my count, McCain might respond to you.

837
01:54:04,320 --> 01:54:12,400
Yeah. And I've been wondering about this.

838
01:54:12,400 --> 01:54:19,870
So, I mean, that's that's that's interesting, and it's and it's true also.

839
01:54:19,870 --> 01:54:27,500
But you know, when we are dealing with them with the American unilateral, we're.

840
01:54:27,500 --> 01:54:37,150
Most of the times are kind of busy or preoccupied with who's winning the argument.

841
01:54:37,150 --> 01:54:42,680
In a way, and the media, Michael, by the way, will always win.

842
01:54:42,680 --> 01:54:50,570
You know, the sceptics the Peruvian take leaves no one standing in the battlefield.

843
01:54:50,570 --> 01:55:00,950
Naturally, the question is at what cost? So I think the important question is not who wins, but what are the, you know, what are the costs?

844
01:55:00,950 --> 01:55:10,470
What is gain and what is lost? And the Mahdi Army Corps wins in the overture, by the way, I think the ceremony consents.

845
01:55:10,470 --> 01:55:18,310
You know, we. Basically, he's aware that the Mahdi Army Corps wins the argument.

846
01:55:18,310 --> 01:55:20,320
But to his understanding,

847
01:55:20,320 --> 01:55:31,830
the Mahdi Army kind of loses something which is more fundamental that for him is the Buddhist tradition and the Buddhist way.

848
01:55:31,830 --> 01:55:43,180
So. Both of them are my young both, you know, adhere to the notion of the Buddhist outline and the deliverance of all sentient beings.

849
01:55:43,180 --> 01:55:53,090
And to the project parameter, for instance, OK, it's a text that the yoghurts are in also mentioned and quotes from a lot the perfection of wisdom.

850
01:55:53,090 --> 01:56:00,700
Now insulins are not, they don't have just their own sutras they consider themselves to be.

851
01:56:00,700 --> 01:56:06,630
But for them, as yoghurt showrooms, they also have a discourse on meditation.

852
01:56:06,630 --> 01:56:17,490
Of stages of the path of. And I mentioned scripture already and the important status of scripture and so on.

853
01:56:17,490 --> 01:56:25,160
And these are doctrines that for them are necessary for liberation.

854
01:56:25,160 --> 01:56:32,210
That is, you know, it's not just, you know, something that we adhere to, it's something that is important for the body, subtle way.

855
01:56:32,210 --> 01:56:37,280
They have this notion of the bodhisattva as someone that reaches nearly Copacabana on conceptual

856
01:56:37,280 --> 01:56:47,360
awareness and then comes back to a state that follows that in which she operates within samsara.

857
01:56:47,360 --> 01:56:49,870
You know, and interacts with different beings,

858
01:56:49,870 --> 01:57:02,040
and the guitar has an entire explanatory apparatus in terms of the philosophy of mind and of language of how this works.

859
01:57:02,040 --> 01:57:11,740
And they need to defend the coherence of that discourse of how the bodhisattva engages in the world.

860
01:57:11,740 --> 01:57:19,690
And also their ability to make these arguments to defend their legitimacy of making such descriptions,

861
01:57:19,690 --> 01:57:24,820
which the Mahdi Army Corps would not do because it's all provisional, right?

862
01:57:24,820 --> 01:57:34,780
It's kind of, you know, this we into change in a palace, in me as you call that very beautifully as a palace, me, you know, opinions.

863
01:57:34,780 --> 01:57:40,430
You know, we we say whatever is useful to get people liberated.

864
01:57:40,430 --> 01:57:46,480
Nobody orchestra has a notion of the path and of the Buddhist sect of activities.

865
01:57:46,480 --> 01:57:52,390
It's conventional. It's pronounced in the world. It's just true in a realistic sense.

866
01:57:52,390 --> 01:57:59,840
But this is something that needs to be out there and we need to defend the legitimacy of saying that.

867
01:57:59,840 --> 01:58:09,870
Therefore. Her approach to language and metaphysics must be difference, and so they lose the argument.

868
01:58:09,870 --> 01:58:19,860
But. To their understanding, they win something which they cannot forgo.

869
01:58:19,860 --> 01:58:29,010
And to their understanding, the Mahdi Army does, and in that sense, it might be nihilistic let because it says everything doesn't exist.

870
01:58:29,010 --> 01:58:35,540
But in the sense that it is willing to.

871
01:58:35,540 --> 01:58:48,530
Let go of certain. Transformative and informative schemes that the younger child thinks is necessary to have in order to reach liberation.

872
01:58:48,530 --> 01:58:58,140
I mean, I think that's really interesting, and that probably tunes us a lot and towards the end of the book.

873
01:58:58,140 --> 01:59:01,650
Well, I found this really, really insightful.

874
01:59:01,650 --> 01:59:13,790
You answered a lot of questions that I think will help people grapple with just digging into the book, especially if they've not got the background.

875
01:59:13,790 --> 01:59:21,480
And then I would love to discuss some of the ethical implications, especially.

876
01:59:21,480 --> 01:59:29,730
Some of these things that sometimes look the same and then there's something different going on.

877
01:59:29,730 --> 01:59:39,170
And especially this last topic. So your work brought scholarly attention to this less explored topic of the philosophical

878
01:59:39,170 --> 01:59:45,080
use of metaphor in yoga studies without side tracking to ongoing debates about idealism,

879
01:59:45,080 --> 01:59:51,380
externality or this constant comparative analysis with the magic school that we find?

880
01:59:51,380 --> 01:59:55,730
You acknowledge these things, but you look at something else and bring more attention to that.

881
01:59:55,730 --> 02:00:03,650
And it's exciting to see a study that develops yoga terms and has such strong into textual discourse.

882
02:00:03,650 --> 02:00:11,090
So given this context in scholarship, I wanted to ask you what your opinion is or what's next for you,

883
02:00:11,090 --> 02:00:20,510
guitarist of these other research topics within yoga or philosophy of language or related topics in South Asian or contemporary analytic philosophies,

884
02:00:20,510 --> 02:00:26,600
which you hope will receive more attention in the next few years, either in your work or in the work of other scholars.

885
02:00:26,600 --> 02:00:32,510
So that's a wonderful question. You know, I should be in a position to answer that.

886
02:00:32,510 --> 02:00:45,020
There was a culture of the Yoga Ogasawara Studies Unit Group at the American Academy of Religion for five years where we kind of discussed every year.

887
02:00:45,020 --> 02:00:55,130
You know, we had panels on your guitar, on various various issues and topics, historical and modern and with other groups.

888
02:00:55,130 --> 02:01:02,080
So I but I but I'm hesitant.

889
02:01:02,080 --> 02:01:07,120
To point just one direction, I would say, you know,

890
02:01:07,120 --> 02:01:17,140
there's not a lot there should be or there is not a lot there should be more done and there is some promising work along the way.

891
02:01:17,140 --> 02:01:35,220
Yoga Chara. Functions or played a role in modern are Buddhist revivals, for instance, in China since the 19th century,

892
02:01:35,220 --> 02:01:47,430
even earlier and in South and East Asia, which is something that people like yellow vivo working on are working on.

893
02:01:47,430 --> 02:01:55,360
And there's a lot to say about it, and that's a fascinating field that I think is going to develop in.

894
02:01:55,360 --> 02:01:58,600
The next year or so, because you're with China, for some reason,

895
02:01:58,600 --> 02:02:06,790
you would think that would be the last school to be picked up in modern revivals of Buddhism,

896
02:02:06,790 --> 02:02:19,480
but actually it was very popular in a sense, perhaps, you know, going along with kind of transcendental idealists or idealists, friends of Europeans.

897
02:02:19,480 --> 02:02:22,960
So this is a fascinating topic.

898
02:02:22,960 --> 02:02:32,650
But more generally, I think that the most important to me, I would say, but I think that there is to be a little bit cosmic here.

899
02:02:32,650 --> 02:02:46,870
But you asked for it, you know, in your question, the important questions, 20th-century philosophy and maybe the 21st.

900
02:02:46,870 --> 02:02:54,510
Twenty first century philosophy is questions of meaning and normative ity in the most general sense.

901
02:02:54,510 --> 02:03:04,870
Hey, I'm talking about meaning in the in the sense of how the world becomes meaningful for us and meaning in its most broad sense,

902
02:03:04,870 --> 02:03:16,810
perceptual that is existential and linguistic altogether, which is something that I try to touch a little bit in the book.

903
02:03:16,810 --> 02:03:35,320
And the other most interesting question is about normal activity, how we come to create, adopt, justify or normative view of our world.

904
02:03:35,320 --> 02:03:48,130
And this is something that I think that the most exciting things in philosophy are being done in that field and in Buddhist studies as well.

905
02:03:48,130 --> 02:03:53,770
I think one of the most interesting books in Buddhist studies,

906
02:03:53,770 --> 02:03:59,260
recent ones is actually uniting Buddhist studies, but it's a person that writes about Buddhist studies.

907
02:03:59,260 --> 02:04:04,360
It's by Jay Garfield that makes the concealed art of costume.

908
02:04:04,360 --> 02:04:13,360
It's a book about David Hume, about David Hume's treatise and its book about how normal activity is being created

909
02:04:13,360 --> 02:04:23,050
and the origin of normal activity and how it's being created and regulated.

910
02:04:23,050 --> 02:04:32,800
And I think that would be the most important question us for approaching the yoga Chopra.

911
02:04:32,800 --> 02:04:36,670
Which is something that has not been dealt with a lot in respect to you,

912
02:04:36,670 --> 02:04:45,700
which are awful about your with your ethics, about how to understand normative the tea in the conventional room.

913
02:04:45,700 --> 02:04:54,970
There are people working on your mature ethics, like Jonathan Gold from Princeton and Princeton and other people.

914
02:04:54,970 --> 02:05:00,550
But I think this is where the field in a way is heading apart, of course,

915
02:05:00,550 --> 02:05:08,260
from doing the textual work of translating common teaching and interpreting the overall text,

916
02:05:08,260 --> 02:05:15,760
especially in the Chinese tradition and Tibetan traditions, which is an ongoing effort.

917
02:05:15,760 --> 02:05:21,930
So that would be my kind of 10 cents, two cents, actually.

918
02:05:21,930 --> 02:05:28,080
With her response. Thank you.

919
02:05:28,080 --> 02:05:39,200
I mean, if to follow friends and the whole thing and. Actually, most translations will be more revealing to us as well.

920
02:05:39,200 --> 02:05:43,610
Well, thank you for giving us so much time.

921
02:05:43,610 --> 02:05:52,400
It's a significant chunk of your day, let's say grateful if you hope to spend another significant time with us in a few months.

922
02:05:52,400 --> 02:06:00,860
By then, I might have my questions. This was I find it useful.

923
02:06:00,860 --> 02:06:05,530
I'm sure I find useful and.

924
02:06:05,530 --> 02:06:16,060
Thank you so much for inviting me and for your great questions and for reading the book so closely and with such attention,

925
02:06:16,060 --> 02:06:22,550
I think you're my best reader so far anyway. Some of.

926
02:06:22,550 --> 02:06:33,590
Thank you so much. That's such a culture, it's such a pleasure to have.

927
02:06:33,590 --> 02:06:42,950
Thank you for making room for the possibility of strengthening for or contesting our interpretive frameworks and your consideration.

928
02:06:42,950 --> 02:06:51,440
Many thanks to the entire BPP de Chelsea torch and podcast teams you know towards your crying with you.

929
02:06:51,440 --> 02:07:08,538
Do find you next, possibly next Wednesday. See you then.