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I have a. So we'll make a start now.

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Welcome, everybody, to the fourth seminar in the Unconscious Memory Network series.

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It's great to see you all. So, Mark, the convenor of Just Say a few words about the network by way of invitation.

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This network was set up to develop ways in which you might reduce the conceptual gap between mind and brain with a focus on unconscious memory.

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And so far, we have examined the neurobiology and literature of of memory,

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the neuroscience of reading, and what literature neuroscience can tell us about priming.

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Coming up in a couple of weeks is a seminal Proustian memory, led by Gordon Sheppard, the eminent neuro anatomist at Yale,

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and his daughter, Professor Christine Shepherd Ball, who teaches in the English faculty here.

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We warmly invite your participation and collaboration and see if you have any suggestions.

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Just drop me a line.

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For those who have not attended this series before, what we do is hear one talk after another, pausing only very briefly for clarification questions.

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And after we've had both papers, we take a short break for drinks and with drinks in hand, begin the discussion.

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So to turn to today's topic, neuroscience and psychoanalysis,

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I am delighted to introduce to you our chair, the Goldsmith Professor of English at Oxford, Laura Marcus.

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Many of us know her through her welcome modernism, Virginia Woolf and film.

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But perhaps with so many psychoanalysts in the room, Professor Marcus may be more familiar to you in the context of psychoanalysis.

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She has edited Freud's The Interpretation of Dreams, as well as a collection of interdisciplinary essays on the Interpretation of Dreams.

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And last year we saw both the publication of our landmark study Dreams of Modernity, Psychoanalysis, Literature, Cinema,

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published by the Cambridge University Press and the Concise Companion to Psychoanalysis, Literature and Culture, published by Blackwell Wiley.

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Please join me in welcoming our chair, Professor Marcus. Thank you very much.

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So it's a great honour and pleasure to be asked to chair this session,

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which I know a number of people all of us have been looking forward to, but the room is very crowded and that's excellent.

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I'm going to introduce speakers one by one, as it were.

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So first to introduce our first speaker, Professor Richard Brown,

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who is a university research professor in the Department of Psychology and Neuroscience at Dalhousie University in Nova Scotia.

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But he has had a lot of history, spent a good deal of his career here at Oxford, including completing a degree in zoology in Oxford.

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And he's returned as a senior visiting research fellow at St John's College, Oxford recently,

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and also a visiting professorship at Wolfson College, which he held last year.

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And the list of his achievements research the post he's held is very long.

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I would just single out a few.

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He was president of the International Behavioural and Genetic Society and President of the Canadian Society for Brain Behaviour and Cognitive Science.

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And his work has been on neurological disorders through mouse models which we want to hear more about and working on Alzheimer's disease,

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on Fragile X Syndrome, ADHD and other neurological disorders.

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And he has also written wonderful work more on the history of science and perhaps we might be able to ask more about that in Question Time.

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But today, he's going to be talking to us on the question of multiple memory systems in the brain,

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integrating conscious and unconscious memory pathways.

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So it gives me a very good welcome.

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Well, I would like to thank very much, Professor Sutton Park, for inviting me to this symposium and everyone for making this sunshine.

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As was mentioned in the introduction, most of our work these days is on mouse models of Alzheimer's disease.

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And what I want to talk about is the problem of trying to understand mouse models of any disease and translating that information to human disorders.

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So we sit back and forth from the human situation to the mouse situation.

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So H.M. is probably the most famous person in psychology and neuroscience in memory.

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Died recently, and he's famous because he's been a long term patient who had epilepsy,

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and he had a bilateral removal of his medial temporal lobe, which caused enormous problems with memory and brand new.

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Milner from Montreal Neurological Institute, a student of Donald Hebb, went and did the first experiments on age since the 1950s when this began.

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And it has been an endless series of age.

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I mean, it's been studied in every possible human learning and memory experiment that you can imagine.

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This is a review paper by John Horgan in 2000 to have all the studies done on age and up to the end.

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And there have been more recent reviews that are obituaries of age and of everything we've learned from H.M.

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And what I want to start out with is the question H.

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M had his medial temporal lobes removed as became many other areas of the brain, what could he do and what could he do?

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So this is from Suzanne Perkins article.

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So what was impaired at that picture?

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Memory tests, words, them completion category decision, lexical decision,

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what seemed to be normal pattern recognition words that were confused with similarly words,

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exemplary reduction, fragments of vision from before spelling familiar words, certain words in other words.

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So even though he'd lost a big chunk of his brain, a big chunk of his memory, he still could do some things.

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And the the day this experiment was done, the world of the neuroscience, of learning and memory changed.

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So Brendan Milner would go to HMS Room and she'd say, Hello, do you remember me?

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No, I've never seen you before in my life. Do you remember this test?

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No. I've never done this test before in my life. And the test was to take a pencil and trace the lines of this star when looking in a mirror.

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And this is the ten trials they want.

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And trials they do ten. Trials they three. And his ears went down to almost zero by the third day.

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Each day he said he'd never done this test before.

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So it was clear that memory was not just memory.

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Memory must have at least two components a conscious, explicit memory and a sort of unconscious procedural or implicit memory.

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So in preparing for this, I.

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I was concerned that I didn't know what the unconscious was, although I have had surgery and been under anaesthetic and I do sleep.

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So there were times and I was once in a car crash where I woke up on the side of the road with people saying, Is he dead?

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Is he dead? I said, No, I'm not. I don't know how to look here.

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So I'm conscious, not conscious, knowing when myself.

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Is that a very you know, there's designated mental processes of which a person is not aware of,

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but which are powerful effects of his or her attitudes. And then we'll see in the second thought today, in Freudian theory,

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designated process as activated by desires, fears or memories which are unacceptable to the conscious mind.

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Maybe a lot of critique of this so repressed.

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Also designating that part of the mind or psyche which such processes operate from the Oxford English Dictionary.

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If I look in a dictionary of psychology and look at unconscious memory and just

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generally implicit memory and conscious cognitive processes involving thinking,

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reasoning, judging, problem solving, you think about consciousness.

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See incubation period of brooding required to do something to the point where it's forming a substance.

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Uh, in cognitive psychology period of time, which no conscious effort is made to solve the problem and the solution comes to.

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So there is something about unconscious memory and cognition.

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It's like the problem. That solution just comes to you. I wasn't that interesting.

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You don't have to really touch this. Very hard to be so implicit.

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I'm sorry. Implicit memory at explicit memory, then, that you think of these facts.

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The names I recall in recognition.

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Parts of memory. Implicit memory that you say precede your memory.

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Learning to ride a bicycle. I'm learning to draw this scar backwards.

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And people with amnesia, you can say, well, they've lost their memory, but what does that mean?

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And this leads into the whole world of multiple intelligences and multiple memory systems.

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So you have somewhere it's a memory located in the brain.

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And if you are free and all that, just there it is somewhere there.

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We're all free knowledge, as it turns out.

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So you had Larry Squire, this is one of my favourite drawings and try to think of a ten best drawings in neuroscience.

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And this is one of those drawings that really tells the tale.

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It's 1996, but still worth using that long term memory.

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Divided into implicit and explicit memory.

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We've got a gem's medial temporal lobe there. Facts and events we've got learning to ride a bicycle.

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Motor skills astride of priming which you had a seminar on here.

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Simple classical conditioning, fear conditioning and conditioned emotional responses involving the major and also in occasion the hippocampus,

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I believe, conditioning the cerebellum and habituation in sensitisation involving reflex pathways.

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This is such a favourite figure of mine that I've collected every version I could ever find.

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I'm not going to show you them all, but this is from David Sweat's book,

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and I know it's the one I mentioned David Sweat the show on it because he is an artist as well as a neuroscientist.

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And in his book, every chapter begins with a painting that he did himself.

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But here he's got unconscious learning, unconscious storage, certain types of subject.

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The conscious recall, though I'm not sure, but he's unconscious, recall, love, interest, etc. and then conscious learning and working memory.

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So a different type of division of labour of the memory systems.

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And this is a play by Catherine Hankey on that altering the way you see this and I

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should have deleted that one and just kept this one because she but she did say,

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well we can look at memory in terms of rapid encoding and flexible associations.

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Episodic memory is a canvas in your cortex, slow encoding of rigid association through basal ganglia, cerebellum,

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your projects of procedural memory, classical conditioning, semantic memory and the rapid encoding of single units is a critical gyrus neuro.

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So just about and it's like schools of multiple memory systems almost.

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And you can ask a more detailed question. You can say, well, what is the neural circuitry underlying of memory?

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And this is possibly the neural circuitry of the hippocampal type memory.

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You've got the hippocampus connected to the subjective on the environment cortex better on the cortex through the centuries into the thalamus.

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But the neuroendocrine and emotional hypothalamus, the phase of forebrain, the parietal lobe,

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temporal lobe, frontal lobe, and you can try and trace the circuits involved in any memory.

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And people are working on that. Just down the road here the other day, you can ask the question of what is the neurochemical basis of memory?

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And for this, all I've chosen is that cholinergic system. You've got the nerve to experiment with acetylcholine in all the pathways.

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There's the nucleus itself. It may not, which I spent four years working on, and they've been published my paper about that and better so.

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And it has cholinergic pathways to all parts of the brain that could be involved in learning

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and memory and are thought to underlie some of the problems in Alzheimer's disease.

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And then you can go deeper to biochemical and molecular biology mechanisms.

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Uh, calcium you're going to campaign for protein kinases.

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Krebs And protein synthesis, brain growth neurotrophic factor and changes in that in the,

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in the structure of the cell associated with learning and memory and long term biochemical changes.

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And last week I heard you talk on PCA Zeta, which I thought was dead, but it's having a resurgence.

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So there's a whole world of, yeah, I'll tell you about it. There's a whole world of molecular biology involved in learning.

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Now, this is one of my favourite papers. And by a twist of fate, the author Rob McDonald, is here on Live at Oxford.

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Stand up, Rob. He's one of the great experts in Canada and the world of multiple memory system theory.

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And this was your Ph.D., wasn't it? And to show you how important this paper was last year, it was completely reprinted in behavioural neuroscience.

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You say is reprinted twice or just that time in behaviour no science.

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Last year, 2013, yeah, 2013 was reprinted.

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So this is an important paper because it follows on from Brandon Miller's research with H m on trying to disassociate memory systems.

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But Rob and my old pal going, why did it I mean,

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is this is a broad range of methods that you can bake different arms with food and you can have different rules for the.

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Rat or mouse to learn the eight hour made your mess and you can set up different rules and different visions of the brain.

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So this is the experiment, too, with your neurotoxic lesions.

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And so if you lesion the hippocampus and ask them to do a little shift paradigm, so you bait forearms,

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they go to an arm, they get food, then they have to go to another arm to get food.

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And the hippocampal lesion, they make a lot of errors.

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The other lesions, they don't make any errors. You can also have a condition.

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Q Prep that you can put a red light on one of the arms and the animal has to learn to go to the where the light is to get food.

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And if you do that around immediately, then they can't make that discrimination.

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And then you can have a wind stage situation where you put food in an arm.

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An animal has to go back to the arm a second time to get another pellet of food.

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And if you give it or subscribe to that, you get poor performance in that.

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So a beautiful study of different effects of lesions, of different memory systems and how they encode different types of information.

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And I'm glad Rob was here because I told him this is one of my favourite papers

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and I forgot until this afternoon when I checked that it was in my talk.

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So we move now to Alzheimer's disease, to humans with Alzheimer's disease, and we asked many questions.

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And this question comes from research on cancer.

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When you research on cancer, the question is, what is the first cell that gets cancer and how does it spread?

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And so you can ask, what is the first cell that gets Alzheimer's disease and what's the system that it goes through?

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And so you have patients with damage to the hippocampus, only patients with damage to the medial temporal lobes, much like H.

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And then you have certain types of learning and memory that are impaired in certain types of learning and memory that are preserved.

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And you can start to try and disassociate. And what does it mean to have a hippocampal system that's impaired?

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What does it mean to have episodic memory that's impaired?

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What kind of memory is preserved? And I'm going to go into this in a bit more detail in a second.

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But the essence is when you lose your memory, you don't lose your memory.

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You lose one type of memory. And the others may be spared, at least for some time, until the degeneration hits those other areas.

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And so this is a case of piano playing know, Alzheimer's disease.

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I mean, we often hear about people who forget the name of their children,

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forget where they live, forget their hat, recognise their husband can still play the piano.

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And so this was a reading of one patient in language abilities.

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And can some of this, whatever that says it really does.

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Yeah, let's add some tension and tension and the score is there with the stars on the show,

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ones that are preserved to some extent, the others that decline.

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And then sequencing remote implicit memory and autobiographical memory.

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So here you see the sequencing they fail by you're the control subjects are getting scores of ten they're getting scores of two.

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Whereas with some implicit memory, the controls are getting 5.6 and they're getting 4.4 and no significant controls 10.6, 0.2.

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So a number of things are preserved in these people or this one person with Alzheimer's disease.

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And what's interesting is when you start looking at what goes wrong and what's preserved and musical knowledge,

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the ability to name that tune, to say what song it is that it each year.

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Whereas the motor control part, the performance aspect is maintained at eight out of eight,

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whatever the total score is, eight doesn't change over the years.

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Five, five, four it doesn't change. And here this is the piano playing skill and many of the results that the FDA is vested.

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Right? So there's only two significant differences. Through significant declines over three years, there is no decline significantly.

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Rhythm, tempo, tone, quality, posture.

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The motor control parts are not declining,

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whereas the naming the song part is this is a paper and then with different patients, all of whom had some motor skill.

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And so the output, the objective is to describe cognitive skills in patients with dementia.

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What can they do? And they look at their particular skill.

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So one patient continues to play the trombone in a Dixieland band.

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Although they could not name the song, he was playing another completely dissolve jigsaw puzzle skillet.

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And that's the dominoes. The fifth remains of the contact.

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Gradually, you could not name the soup to articulate simple fitting rules,

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so the motor component is staying there and cognitive component seems to be deteriorated.

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And memory for music is interesting. A lot of people at McGill McGill University do memory for music and memory for music has two components.

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As I said, the naming of the tune and the beat out, the failed food.

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And so the explicit and implicit musical memory functions, the implicit being the motor control,

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the ability to play continues to be spared in patients with maybe the explicit musical memory.

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Recognising familiar, unfamiliar matters is impaired.

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So you get this dissociation, the things that Rob does.

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So they move to our mind. So Wonderful World and Manzarek tested zillions of mice over the last number of years.

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You can have a lot of background strains in mice,

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genetically inbred strains that the 57 black tick is the most common mouse that day are little French age.

200
00:22:06,980 --> 00:22:10,690
And then you get transgenic Alzheimer's.

201
00:22:10,710 --> 00:22:19,130
Most of us have genes put into them. So yeah, the ADP gene and of this one gene and they have five different genes and five

202
00:22:19,130 --> 00:22:23,660
times and the three times that I'll tell you a story about each of these mice,

203
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,099
one story per mouse so as not to take up too much time.

204
00:22:28,100 --> 00:22:39,440
So we have tested seven different mouse models every thing their first these days, every year, every number, every punctuation mark has a meaning.

205
00:22:40,130 --> 00:22:47,120
And so we've agreed in the names that they the genes have put in in different ways.

206
00:22:47,120 --> 00:22:50,750
They express different genes and they have different background strains.

207
00:22:51,110 --> 00:22:56,090
All of that confounds things. But I won't go into that now. I talked about it last week in physiology.

208
00:22:56,630 --> 00:23:01,570
There are also a number of different memory tests you can do numerous vitamins.

209
00:23:01,580 --> 00:23:03,300
The spatial test of autism is.

210
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That's rotary burning trying to both scoop has odour preferences, air conditioning, visual discrimination, breed policy,

211
00:23:11,580 --> 00:23:19,710
division of startle, etc. So you have huge batteries of tests like we called it years ago, our mouse IQ test.

212
00:23:21,420 --> 00:23:25,270
So the the Delta 89 mouse, a double transgenic mouse.

213
00:23:25,650 --> 00:23:30,750
I tell you the story of the barn because it illustrates a number of things.

214
00:23:30,750 --> 00:23:33,180
And we've published this in the Barnes Maze.

215
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The mouse starts out in the middle, there's a loud noise, there's bright light, and it can run into one of these walls and find a high level.

216
00:23:40,020 --> 00:23:45,329
And you record the time and the pathway and the latency, how it gets there,

217
00:23:45,330 --> 00:23:49,440
what it does, what's going on in the mouse's mind as it tries to solve this problem.

218
00:23:50,130 --> 00:23:53,190
And we can do it over a number of days, I should say something more,

219
00:23:53,670 --> 00:23:59,730
so that what we do is we test it for a number of days with an escape or here that day,

220
00:24:00,090 --> 00:24:03,180
and then one day we surprise it and move escape hole over there.

221
00:24:03,540 --> 00:24:06,810
So just when it thinks it knows what it's doing, it has to rethink it.

222
00:24:07,290 --> 00:24:12,130
Sort of like going down the Headington Road when it's all jammed up with roadworks.

223
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,400
Let's see what happened. Touch something. Okay.

224
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,809
Going away. This is where we get confused.

225
00:24:21,810 --> 00:24:28,710
Next, I guess. Next is what I want. So this is the latency and that's the number of errors.

226
00:24:29,070 --> 00:24:37,860
And we've got females and males, the white dots, the wildtype, the black dots are the transgenic and you see the trends.

227
00:24:37,860 --> 00:24:44,460
And if are taking longer and making more errors, both females and males, females are slightly worse than men.

228
00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:52,380
So you've got a learning difference. When you reverse it, they all get confused and then they learn it again.

229
00:24:53,310 --> 00:24:58,650
And the bigger that is, the better they've learned over here, a spatial technique.

230
00:24:59,370 --> 00:25:04,200
So now that mice could learn this in a number of different ways, hopefully I've got it here.

231
00:25:04,620 --> 00:25:13,250
The mice can run around at random and bump into the correct form, and this is the amount of their trials they run around the rat.

232
00:25:13,650 --> 00:25:18,090
They don't want anything to at the beginning, but gradually they start running around at random.

233
00:25:18,450 --> 00:25:22,770
At least the wild type, the transgenic still running around at random a bit more.

234
00:25:23,490 --> 00:25:31,080
And when you finish running around at random, you say, okay, if I go there, I just go, right, I'm going to sequence a procedural rule.

235
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:37,350
So what's that? When they develop a procedural rule and the transgenic mice work by procedural more,

236
00:25:37,780 --> 00:25:41,740
when you discover where the whole thing is, you can look around there and say, Oh, there is the door.

237
00:25:41,910 --> 00:25:46,050
I don't have to go around the wall. I don't have to go. I can focus on that green sign.

238
00:25:46,260 --> 00:25:57,389
I go right to the door. So they develop a spatial strategy and the wild type are much better at developing a spatial strategy than the transgenic.

239
00:25:57,390 --> 00:26:02,730
So their little mouse minds are working differently than the normal mouse.

240
00:26:02,730 --> 00:26:08,820
That control mouse is more rapidly getting rid of its random behaviour.

241
00:26:08,820 --> 00:26:13,710
It's developing a procedural passive in switching into a spatial tax.

242
00:26:15,060 --> 00:26:20,430
And so you can say they have two types of learning, a procedural learning.

243
00:26:20,430 --> 00:26:24,390
Every time I touch something, I don't even have to touch it very much.

244
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:29,850
Okay. And show. No, I don't want any show I want next. Thank you, little machine.

245
00:26:30,510 --> 00:26:38,310
Now you do a memory test. At the end of the day, you you put it in there with no escape call and say, where does the mouse take the stakeholders?

246
00:26:38,850 --> 00:26:44,790
So females and males and females make more errors of this than males and there's not as big a difference.

247
00:26:45,180 --> 00:26:50,100
And between that, there's the correct or not and the one next to it, anyone on the other side.

248
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:56,790
It's not as big a difference between their females, whether it's transgenic or wild type, but the male is a huge difference.

249
00:26:56,790 --> 00:27:01,460
There's the wild type males and there's the ATP males.

250
00:27:01,470 --> 00:27:05,700
They're not as good at spatial orientation as the wild type mouse.

251
00:27:06,540 --> 00:27:11,279
But then we ask the question, what happens in the reversal memory test?

252
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:15,030
So it used to go to the door over there, the exit over there.

253
00:27:15,390 --> 00:27:23,160
Now that's the correct one. So what you do well, you go to the correct one or the one next to it.

254
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:27,190
Not very many areas. The wild type are better than the trend setting.

255
00:27:27,450 --> 00:27:34,500
But what if it's not there? You go to the old place now that means the little mouse brain has two memories.

256
00:27:34,890 --> 00:27:40,440
It has today's memory where how to get out of the maze, yesterday's memory and last week's memory.

257
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:48,210
How you used to get out of the maze so you can infer that the little mouse has only one type of memory or one type of learning.

258
00:27:48,570 --> 00:27:56,850
It can flip back and forth. So let's go to the five page mouse and the rotor right there, learning to ride a bicycle path.

259
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,380
You put them on this drive, you turn it on and it turns slightly faster to slightly faster.

260
00:28:01,740 --> 00:28:07,160
So they have to coordinate the. Cell phone. And they can learn to balance on it and to stay on it.

261
00:28:08,030 --> 00:28:12,110
And we test these mice from birth to death.

262
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,710
Three, six, nine, 12, 15 months of age.

263
00:28:16,220 --> 00:28:25,160
You see at three months of age, these two in the transgenic bats, the female, they're fine at six months of age, they're fine at nine months of age.

264
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:32,239
The transgenic are falling off sooner. At 12 months of age, they're getting to be post in 15 months of age.

265
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:38,209
They can hardly balance on this game at all. Notice in general, the females are better than the males.

266
00:28:38,210 --> 00:28:42,470
They say, Well, you've got a genotype difference and you've got a sex difference.

267
00:28:43,050 --> 00:28:47,450
Well, you would be fooled. So what you have to do.

268
00:28:47,460 --> 00:28:51,800
Oh, isn't that annoying? I guess I'll be talking about that later.

269
00:28:52,460 --> 00:28:58,300
So you've got now a motor control problem and it's five times five.

270
00:28:58,700 --> 00:29:02,300
And the motor learning problem is you can't stay on the road. You can't learn.

271
00:29:03,150 --> 00:29:09,890
And these are exactly the same mice tested by force two every three months for most of his life.

272
00:29:11,030 --> 00:29:16,580
And so they know what to do. They've done it before, but they're failing because of motor control problems.

273
00:29:17,540 --> 00:29:20,780
Let's look at the Maurice Waterman's here. They swim.

274
00:29:21,260 --> 00:29:25,760
You put them in at various places, and they swim to this platform that is standing water.

275
00:29:26,510 --> 00:29:30,890
And we run through this platform for a few days and then we trick them and move it over there.

276
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:37,040
Then we get an invisible platform. I want to talk about that. They get four trials a day for three days.

277
00:29:37,050 --> 00:29:41,120
Then we switch them over and see what their little mouse mind is thinking.

278
00:29:41,930 --> 00:29:48,200
So this again tells you many here, the same mice three, six, nine, 12, 15 months of age.

279
00:29:48,860 --> 00:29:51,680
And the males show the shift here,

280
00:29:52,070 --> 00:30:00,500
suggesting they're using a phase of approach that females not so much at six months of age, hard to tell them apart.

281
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:08,269
At nine months of age, at 12 months of age, you're starting to have a sex difference.

282
00:30:08,270 --> 00:30:11,329
And is that for transgenic mice?

283
00:30:11,330 --> 00:30:14,740
They're not doing well compared to the wild type.

284
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:20,900
And by 15 months, when they're perfectly separate, it is much harder to do it at all.

285
00:30:21,380 --> 00:30:27,110
Whereas the Wildcats are not only learning rapidly, they're using a spatial approach.

286
00:30:27,770 --> 00:30:32,270
So now you've got a big separation in their ability.

287
00:30:32,690 --> 00:30:37,010
And is it confounded by motor control? Some of it is, but some of it's not.

288
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:42,590
You look at a memory test, you just take out that platform and ask them where they think they're going.

289
00:30:43,190 --> 00:30:47,080
Just look at this one. Correct. Three months of age, no problem.

290
00:30:47,090 --> 00:30:51,350
Six months, nine months, five months, 15 months.

291
00:30:51,350 --> 00:30:59,899
The transgenic mice can no longer remember. They're not using a spatial approach, but they can still solve the problem.

292
00:30:59,900 --> 00:31:04,220
Not so well. So maybe. Maybe the tests aren't hard enough.

293
00:31:04,790 --> 00:31:09,859
We turn to rob McDonald's experiment with knowing right and the vision cues you and

294
00:31:09,860 --> 00:31:15,980
my friend in now in France who developed the eight hour radio made for mothers.

295
00:31:16,430 --> 00:31:20,930
So these are the little kids. You can put a pallet in any one of these arms.

296
00:31:20,930 --> 00:31:25,070
You can do it different ways. And we baited four arms at random.

297
00:31:25,610 --> 00:31:29,360
And if they went to bed in order to get the food, they did it correct.

298
00:31:29,750 --> 00:31:32,870
They would do an animated arm. They have a reference memory there.

299
00:31:33,350 --> 00:31:36,499
If they go to A and get the food, they go back, they do it.

300
00:31:36,500 --> 00:31:44,690
They have a working memory here. So they're juggling a lot of little mouse thoughts in their mind and we test them.

301
00:31:44,690 --> 00:31:50,870
These are different groups of mice that each age two, six, 9 to 15 months of age,

302
00:31:50,870 --> 00:32:01,910
it doesn't matter the but the working memory errors are higher at every age in the transgenic mice.

303
00:32:02,390 --> 00:32:06,920
So the reference memory here is if occasionally you get a six difference.

304
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:13,130
So they're they're not having really age related effects, but they're having problems.

305
00:32:13,340 --> 00:32:20,990
It doesn't look like a big problem, but you average them all together, but they're making more and more errors.

306
00:32:21,710 --> 00:32:26,360
So now what about the motor function of the transgenic mice?

307
00:32:26,780 --> 00:32:34,660
This is so there is the world's mice and there's the transgenic mice.

308
00:32:34,670 --> 00:32:42,290
And every time they explain this, they get it wrong because the transgenic mice are doing better than usual.

309
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,180
It doesn't matter who test them, it doesn't matter what age they're tested.

310
00:32:47,810 --> 00:32:55,320
We replicated this now at least four times. So the transgenic mice are doing better in this motor control group.

311
00:32:55,370 --> 00:33:02,540
Even they did worse than working memory reference group. And the females are doing better than the males and females of each one.

312
00:33:03,460 --> 00:33:09,450
The females are better. But now you have to remember males are you and females.

313
00:33:09,940 --> 00:33:14,940
So if you just do a correlation of body weights, there's a high potential for it,

314
00:33:14,950 --> 00:33:19,720
especially when you get to the last day they fight and it doesn't matter whether you're male or female.

315
00:33:19,750 --> 00:33:25,330
The lighter ones do better than the heavier ones. In fact, on average, females are lighter.

316
00:33:25,990 --> 00:33:30,850
So the the sex difference washes out when you control for body weight.

317
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,380
But the genotype difference stays. Why?

318
00:33:35,410 --> 00:33:45,459
Why? Why is that mouse with three different Alzheimer's genes, genes doing a better job at motor not just motor coordination,

319
00:33:45,460 --> 00:33:51,610
but motor learning, a procedural type of learning, implicit learning, not explicit learning.

320
00:33:52,570 --> 00:34:00,760
So what have we learned about this from this? Just small examples of 728 experiments have done in the last ten years.

321
00:34:01,300 --> 00:34:05,410
The Delta 89, the double transgenic mouse has, of course, spatial learning.

322
00:34:05,950 --> 00:34:10,150
It uses procedural, not spatial learning has poor spatial memory.

323
00:34:10,690 --> 00:34:18,580
The procedural learning and memory in the five times mouse is poor, maybe because of fear for motor control as a used motor function.

324
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:23,560
It also has forestation and triple transgenic for some unknown reason.

325
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:31,330
Probably because of that. How do you have very good procedural memory, reduced spatial reference and working memory?

326
00:34:31,630 --> 00:34:36,070
So you see these different memory systems gradually pulling apart.

327
00:34:36,610 --> 00:34:42,100
So what have we learned about learning? And what I learned the last hour, I forgot to put an arrow down here.

328
00:34:42,610 --> 00:34:50,530
So you start a person or a mouse, you don't know what you're doing, you have a random approach.

329
00:34:50,650 --> 00:34:54,160
Then you develop a procedural approach, go right,

330
00:34:54,490 --> 00:35:02,890
and then you can develop a spatial search for a semantic search or episodic search, which I gave an instructor afternoon.

331
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:08,590
So if you don't know where this is, I'm sorry to discuss it, but you can go back and forth.

332
00:35:08,590 --> 00:35:13,930
If your space of search doesn't work, you can go back to a procedural search that doesn't work.

333
00:35:14,110 --> 00:35:19,989
And no doubt you go back to a random search back and forth so you're different.

334
00:35:19,990 --> 00:35:23,020
It's not like you're fixated on one way of doing things.

335
00:35:23,230 --> 00:35:27,129
You can slip in different types of learning, different mechanism.

336
00:35:27,130 --> 00:35:30,430
So what about very well, you can score in memory.

337
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:39,370
And so where that platform is in advance, there's this time where that from was last time, where is last time?

338
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,480
And so if this memory doesn't work, you might want other memory.

339
00:35:44,210 --> 00:35:49,840
Well, what's the mechanism? You ought to invite Rob McDonald because he has worked on that a lot.

340
00:35:50,290 --> 00:35:53,320
You ought to invite him to give a talk and he can answer these questions.

341
00:35:53,980 --> 00:35:59,380
Well, now we come to memory networks, and this is a case from my own life.

342
00:35:59,590 --> 00:36:05,230
Last time I was in England, I got on a plane at Heathrow and one of my students, one of my former students,

343
00:36:05,770 --> 00:36:12,930
it worked with me for about five years, got on the plane behind me and you sat right behind me and his wife.

344
00:36:12,940 --> 00:36:22,030
Do you think I could remember his name? So I knew he went into college and how he did is all these women that receive it that he got married.

345
00:36:22,030 --> 00:36:27,300
His wife's name came up and she was sitting beside him. He was making tangible advances, enjoying life.

346
00:36:27,310 --> 00:36:32,530
He lived in Montreal. He did venison every year. His wife bought him a piano and they got an apartment together.

347
00:36:32,890 --> 00:36:36,790
Why? Why? Why could I not remember his name?

348
00:36:36,790 --> 00:36:40,059
The whole damn flight? I'm thinking, what the [INAUDIBLE] is this kid's name?

349
00:36:40,060 --> 00:36:44,140
He's sitting right behind me. I've known him for years. I finally said I can't remember anything better.

350
00:36:44,650 --> 00:36:48,250
Then of course it's been. Why, but why? Why?

351
00:36:48,370 --> 00:36:52,120
Why is that gone with all this? I could tell you everything.

352
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,120
How he met his wife, how they're both my students in different years.

353
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,799
And we both went through like, why did this name go my getting Alzheimer's?

354
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,730
Or am I just aged and feeble? Or is that common problem?

355
00:37:04,990 --> 00:37:09,760
So how do we understand memory changes in ageing and Alzheimer's disease?

356
00:37:10,180 --> 00:37:13,270
Well, one question is which memories are lost and which remain?

357
00:37:13,930 --> 00:37:17,829
And what's the neural mechanism underlying that lost?

358
00:37:17,830 --> 00:37:22,210
And the remaining memories, explicit or conscious memories, are lost.

359
00:37:22,690 --> 00:37:27,820
And you try and use implicit or unconscious memories or networks to edit memory.

360
00:37:28,420 --> 00:37:33,460
And so how do we understand why some memory systems fail and others don't?

361
00:37:34,570 --> 00:37:43,080
If only Donald had were still alive, maybe he could help because he developed the idea of self assemblies and I was lucky enough to get

362
00:37:43,220 --> 00:37:49,299
both reprinted in writing an introduction to it and he came up with the idea of these self assembly.

363
00:37:49,300 --> 00:37:52,570
So I'm going to ask you about cells, at least in psychoanalysis.

364
00:37:52,570 --> 00:37:56,970
I've already written questions in other processes. So what's going on?

365
00:37:56,980 --> 00:38:02,820
How do we can we use have cell assemblies to think about memories this.

366
00:38:03,180 --> 00:38:07,310
Is this my memory of Ben and I've lost that bit with his name?

367
00:38:07,950 --> 00:38:10,950
Or does my memory of Ben. And I'd like to be part of it.

368
00:38:11,550 --> 00:38:17,370
And rest remains. How is it that so much remains? But you can't remember one certain thing now?

369
00:38:17,370 --> 00:38:22,649
Is it an Alzheimer's disease that maybe this system fails your cognitive abilities?

370
00:38:22,650 --> 00:38:26,040
Motor system? That's the visual system. Areas over the Internet.

371
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,050
Jim Broadbent areas.

372
00:38:28,500 --> 00:38:38,700
How is it that they remain and one feels it may be that in different clinical disorders one system fails and you develop a clinical disorder.

373
00:38:38,700 --> 00:38:45,210
But as other systems are normal, how do we understand neural functioning in terms of these large networks?

374
00:38:45,780 --> 00:38:49,919
And so there we are. There's our brain there. We are thinking about these things.

375
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:56,020
Thank you very much. Excellent.

376
00:38:56,030 --> 00:39:05,120
Well, put it for a second, speaker. And I'm sure Professor Mark Soames is going to be familiar to many, if not most of us here.

377
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:11,269
I first came upon his work some years ago, and I think the fascination for many of us, as it were,

378
00:39:11,270 --> 00:39:20,630
coming from the humanities is that he has been one of the few people, it seems to me, to try and connect neuroscience with psychoanalysis.

379
00:39:21,170 --> 00:39:24,020
I'm sure we'll be talking more about this this later.

380
00:39:24,500 --> 00:39:34,790
Going back to the early Freud, the Freud that, as it were, lacanian psychoanalysis pushed out because we wanted script and text and narrative.

381
00:39:35,530 --> 00:39:40,160
But but we're now going back to the early Freud of the neuro psychology.

382
00:39:40,370 --> 00:39:49,729
And Professor Soames is editing the complete neuroscientific works of Sigmund Freud and amazingly being the new translator,

383
00:39:49,730 --> 00:39:56,960
the translator of the Revised Standard edition of the Complete Psychological Works of Freud, the 24 volumes of stretch his work.

384
00:39:57,380 --> 00:39:59,600
So in addition to all that,

385
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:08,270
he is chair neuropsychology at the University of Cape Town and unrelated to neurosurgery surgery at San Bartholomew's for London School of Medicine,

386
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:14,270
honorary professor of Neurology, neurological surgery at Cornell Medical School in New York.

387
00:40:15,500 --> 00:40:19,970
He's a practising analyst with membership of the New York Psychoanalytic Society

388
00:40:20,240 --> 00:40:24,950
and honorary and she's honorary fellow of the American College of Psychiatrists.

389
00:40:24,950 --> 00:40:33,019
His sister publications is much too long for me to to even make a stab at it with over 300 articles and five books.

390
00:40:33,020 --> 00:40:37,850
But his most recent book with Oliver Turnbull is The Brain and the Inner World,

391
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:48,049
and he is continues as a member of the British Psychoanalytic Society and the South African Psychoanalytic Association,

392
00:40:48,050 --> 00:40:53,510
of which he's president and research chair of the International Psychoanalytic Association.

393
00:40:53,750 --> 00:40:59,569
So really someone wonderful for us with amazing footholds in both those camps.

394
00:40:59,570 --> 00:41:04,010
I suppose so. Please welcome him to.

395
00:41:08,410 --> 00:41:12,790
So since you mentioned that I'm president of the South African Psychoanalytical Association,

396
00:41:12,790 --> 00:41:18,940
I must tell you it has eight members, one president and seven vice presidents.

397
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:32,709
I'm very glad to have been asked to give this too, because I like talking to many neuroscientists especially.

398
00:41:32,710 --> 00:41:39,460
I enjoy the questions because it's not boring. You get to think about things from an entirely different perspective.

399
00:41:39,970 --> 00:41:45,820
I also was glad to be asked to give this talk because I think that some recent work I've

400
00:41:45,820 --> 00:41:51,129
been doing with two close colleagues of mine on the brain mechanisms of consciousness is,

401
00:41:51,130 --> 00:41:58,870
I think, of particular interest to the sorts of things that I understand motivate this series of seminars.

402
00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:01,660
So I'll just dive straight into that.

403
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:08,229
Some new developments in our field in relation to brain mechanisms of consciousness that I've been working on together with York tanks

404
00:42:08,230 --> 00:42:16,510
up in Washington and with Tony Dimarzio in California and more recently with and to a lesser extent with Carl Friston here in London.

405
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,280
And let's see if they do interest you.

406
00:42:20,290 --> 00:42:24,520
I certainly think that Bill provokes those of my neuroscientific colleagues who are here.

407
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:32,319
We start with the question as to where consciousness comes from.

408
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:36,040
What is it in the brain that generates consciousness in the common sense view?

409
00:42:37,990 --> 00:42:43,569
And I think it was probably from common sense that human Locke and that lot also derived.

410
00:42:43,570 --> 00:42:48,850
The view is that it comes from our sensory perceptual modalities consciousness.

411
00:42:48,850 --> 00:42:56,950
So obviously the contents of our consciousness is so obviously made up of what we perceive, what we see, what we hear.

412
00:42:57,700 --> 00:43:00,730
And to a lesser extent, you know, touch, taste, smell and so on.

413
00:43:01,810 --> 00:43:07,000
And of course, our cognitions have the same sort of content, the same sort of qualities,

414
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:12,130
the same sorts of properties as our external perceptual modalities.

415
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:19,629
And so we following in the footsteps of those great philosophers we think of our cognitions

416
00:43:19,630 --> 00:43:25,690
derive from memories to ultimately also be derived from our external perceptual modalities.

417
00:43:26,340 --> 00:43:30,760
This, in fact, is the totality of the stuff that makes up our consciousness.

418
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:37,030
And as I say, it squares the world with our common sense. The problem is, it appears to be completely wrong.

419
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:46,420
Consciousness is not generated by our perceptual inputs or the memory traces attaching to them at all consciousness.

420
00:43:46,420 --> 00:43:56,770
And this is not needs. Consciousness is generated in a primitive part of the brain, in the upper brainstem, very ancient parts of the brain.

421
00:43:57,130 --> 00:44:01,240
And this we discovered in the 1940s, in fact,

422
00:44:01,240 --> 00:44:08,440
it was such a great surprise in the 1940s that we still haven't entirely gotten among our minds around it,

423
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:12,490
which is why this is old news, but also new news.

424
00:44:13,210 --> 00:44:23,980
McGoohan and Morrissey did a series of experiments in the forties in which they sought to establish brain mechanisms of sleep and wakefulness,

425
00:44:23,980 --> 00:44:27,910
which is more or less the same thing as brain mechanisms of consciousness.

426
00:44:28,390 --> 00:44:33,430
And it was to their very great surprise that they found in a series of experiments,

427
00:44:33,430 --> 00:44:38,680
the most dramatic of which was severing all the sensory inputs in the brains of cats,

428
00:44:39,370 --> 00:44:44,860
with the prediction that the cat would fall asleep because there's no consciousness streaming in anymore.

429
00:44:45,190 --> 00:44:55,780
And that's simply isn't what happened. The cats not only stayed awake, they were very awake, quite educated to be without any sensory inputs.

430
00:44:56,140 --> 00:45:01,990
They still did go to sleep and wake up. But this was according to the normal sleep waking cycle.

431
00:45:01,990 --> 00:45:05,260
It didn't have anything to do with the deprivation of sensory inputs.

432
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:11,470
And in that same series of experiments, there were some single cell recordings that McGoohan and Morrissey did,

433
00:45:11,650 --> 00:45:18,670
and it was in these recording studies that they found that these structures that are generating the consciousness,

434
00:45:18,670 --> 00:45:25,600
the structures that wake the cats up in the morning and put the cat to sleep again at night, that those structures are help.

435
00:45:26,590 --> 00:45:34,890
So that part of the brain has very little connection with the external world, especially the deep nuclei that I'm referring to.

436
00:45:34,990 --> 00:45:40,330
Of course there are parts of the brainstem which are in connection with the outside world,

437
00:45:40,330 --> 00:45:44,319
but the structures that generate our consciousness, that generate our wakefulness,

438
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:45,490
that make us conscious,

439
00:45:45,490 --> 00:45:55,930
that make us different from comatose people are deeply embedded in the upper brainstem and consciousness is generated from their endogenous.

440
00:45:56,410 --> 00:45:59,950
Consciousness is a property not about perceptual modalities,

441
00:45:59,950 --> 00:46:05,230
not of the streaming of information from the outside world, but rather it's a property of the brain.

442
00:46:05,530 --> 00:46:09,460
The brain itself, in a very ancient part, generates the consciousness.

443
00:46:10,090 --> 00:46:12,940
Now, as I told you, this is something we've known since the forties.

444
00:46:12,940 --> 00:46:22,200
Penfield and Jaspers did other experiments on humans, cases of epilepsy surgery in which they were able to confirm.

445
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:27,640
Magoon and Marissa's observations and came to the same conclusion.

446
00:46:28,060 --> 00:46:35,590
They called this the synchronous italic region, and they came to the conclusion that this is the part of the brain where consciousness is generated.

447
00:46:35,860 --> 00:46:40,090
That if you're going to have a generalised seizure in which consciousness is lost,

448
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:45,520
it has to recruit this part of the brain stem, which, as I said, they called the sentence italic region.

449
00:46:46,420 --> 00:46:50,350
So why is this? Why do I need to tell you about this?

450
00:46:50,380 --> 00:46:56,620
As I said, it's such old news that the reason why it's both old and new news is because we use the

451
00:46:56,620 --> 00:47:02,320
kind of a semantic fudge to get out in order to keep our theories the same as they were,

452
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,920
despite the fact that we had overwhelming evidence that our theories were wrong.

453
00:47:06,130 --> 00:47:13,660
Our theory being, as I said, the commonsensical one that conscious the contents of our consciousness are derived from those

454
00:47:13,660 --> 00:47:19,750
parts of our brain which receive and represent the activities of our peripheral sensory organs.

455
00:47:20,830 --> 00:47:25,390
That is to say, the organs which transduced information about the state of the outside world.

456
00:47:26,050 --> 00:47:31,300
So the semantic fudge that we came up with was to divide consciousness into two components.

457
00:47:31,720 --> 00:47:39,880
And we said that the contents of consciousness, the stuff that's filling your mind right now, that this we can keep it exactly the same as it was.

458
00:47:40,060 --> 00:47:46,629
Contents of consciousness are derived from your external perceptual organs and ultimately represented on

459
00:47:46,630 --> 00:47:53,080
the surface of the cortex in the way that we always thought that it was this unwelcome news down here.

460
00:47:53,260 --> 00:47:58,480
We decided to call this the level of consciousness. We called it wakefulness.

461
00:47:58,810 --> 00:48:06,400
And we distinguished this sort of quantitative dimension of consciousness from the qualitative dimension, the qualities of our consciousness.

462
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:11,650
So what we are experiencing now and the fact that we are awake is a kind of background,

463
00:48:11,650 --> 00:48:22,360
quantitative and a necessary prior condition for us to be able to have qualities of consciousness and contents of consciousness.

464
00:48:22,970 --> 00:48:30,010
Okay. So that's from the fifties onwards. That's that's how we got around this, this unwelcome fact.

465
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:37,660
But really and this brings me not closer to the present, although some of the things I'm going to tell you.

466
00:48:37,810 --> 00:48:41,260
We've also known for years. Really, that just isn't correct.

467
00:48:41,290 --> 00:48:44,530
It isn't correct to say, well, let me put it in an absolute nutshell.

468
00:48:45,010 --> 00:48:51,190
It feels like something to be awake is what we've realised that there is a content to wakefulness,

469
00:48:51,370 --> 00:48:57,459
that there is a quality to wakefulness, and that content and that quality is the word I've just used.

470
00:48:57,460 --> 00:49:03,730
Feelings, affective emotional feelings are not derived from the external perceptual world.

471
00:49:03,730 --> 00:49:08,410
You can't see rage. You can see somebody who's in a rage.

472
00:49:08,530 --> 00:49:16,209
But the rage, the feeling of rage or of sadness or of anxiety or whatever, these feeling states,

473
00:49:16,210 --> 00:49:23,170
these emotional feeling states, are contents of consciousness, and they don't come from our external perceptual modalities.

474
00:49:23,290 --> 00:49:30,540
In fact, the contents of our consciousness are made up of more than seeing, hearing, smelling, etc. The contents also made up of these feelings.

475
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:39,069
How could we have left that out? I hope that you literature people you know will forgive us, but we did sort of leave that out for decades,

476
00:49:39,070 --> 00:49:42,850
that the contents of consciousness include feelings and that there's feelings.

477
00:49:42,850 --> 00:49:48,550
Not only are they not generated on the external cortical surface, but that very same part of the brain,

478
00:49:48,820 --> 00:49:55,030
which generates the so-called level of consciousness wakefulness, the so-called quantitative dimension of consciousness,

479
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:59,290
is also the part of the brain that generates the feelings and in fact,

480
00:49:59,290 --> 00:50:05,409
the things that the psychoactive substances that that to psychiatrists tinker with are,

481
00:50:05,410 --> 00:50:13,300
for the most part, the source nuclei of the neurotransmitter systems that they fiddling with are in this part of the brain.

482
00:50:13,540 --> 00:50:19,150
So we might even have been able to infer from that simple fact that why is it that all these psychotropic medications concern,

483
00:50:19,510 --> 00:50:26,470
you know, the neurotransmitters that are released at the terminals of these systems which activate the entire forebrain?

484
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:35,680
It's not only a part of the brain that should concern a coma care and anaesthetist specialists, but also psychiatrists.

485
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:41,110
And as I say, in fact, it is the parts of the brain that the tinkering with, even though they never seem to think about it that way.

486
00:50:41,980 --> 00:50:49,540
The fact is, as Penfield and Jaspers observed in in the fifties, you can remove great swathes of cortex.

487
00:50:49,810 --> 00:50:58,000
What you do is you lose certain types of information processing, but you can't render the patient unconscious by removing cortex.

488
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:02,200
The cortex simply isn't the organ of the conscious mind.

489
00:51:02,410 --> 00:51:07,270
The organ of the conscious mind is Thornhill. Now, there's absolutely oodles of evidence for that.

490
00:51:07,270 --> 00:51:11,049
And I'm just going to show you what I think is the most sort of in a way,

491
00:51:11,050 --> 00:51:17,800
the most moving evidence and in some sense is also the most dramatic evidence for what I've been telling you, which I'll just restate.

492
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:22,060
Consciousness is an endogenous property of the brain.

493
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:28,650
It's generated from below. It is not something that streams in from outside.

494
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:35,130
That's if the consciousness that's generated from below is switched off, then all the rest of consciousness is switched off.

495
00:51:35,430 --> 00:51:40,290
If you lesion this tiny structure that I'm pointing to now, which is called the Perry Aqueduct,

496
00:51:41,100 --> 00:51:46,319
which is the size of a jelly bean, and there's one of them inside of your head right now.

497
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:49,840
If you damage that structure, you will go into coma.

498
00:51:49,860 --> 00:51:53,790
Absolutely. Definitely. It is a 100% certain prediction.

499
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:59,549
It is it is impossible to remain conscious without an intact Perry aqueduct, too.

500
00:51:59,550 --> 00:52:04,350
Great. That can't be said for anything up here. And as I say, you can remove whole hemispheres.

501
00:52:04,620 --> 00:52:12,090
And I'm going to show you no cases of high adrenaline 70 where the child is born with no forebrain.

502
00:52:12,180 --> 00:52:16,530
They're born with no cortex. These little slivers of cortex, you are totally non-functional.

503
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:20,280
There's no white matter connecting them to thalamus.

504
00:52:20,460 --> 00:52:25,820
They therefore can't be activated. And in any event, if you look at them histologically they are closed.

505
00:52:25,830 --> 00:52:33,090
So the even these little flaps of cortex here are effectively functionally absent.

506
00:52:33,390 --> 00:52:37,320
But look at this. These are children who have a brain stem and nothing else.

507
00:52:37,890 --> 00:52:44,250
All these children conscious? You bet. Your bottom dollar, they all they have a normal sleep waking cycle.

508
00:52:45,090 --> 00:52:49,049
And unfortunately for obvious reasons, they are given to seizures.

509
00:52:49,050 --> 00:52:51,360
They're given, in fact, especially to episode seizures.

510
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:56,370
And their parents have no difficulty recognising when the child's awake, when the child's asleep,

511
00:52:56,520 --> 00:53:00,630
when the child's had the seizure and is in the absence states and when they're back again.

512
00:53:01,050 --> 00:53:02,610
So they are they are conscious.

513
00:53:02,610 --> 00:53:09,270
And I hope you can see from this little sequence, by the way, these photographs are shown to you with the permission of the parents.

514
00:53:09,870 --> 00:53:15,060
This little sequence here. This is the child without a full brain, without any cortex.

515
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:19,990
Yeah. Her little sibling is put on her chest and she goes, oh, the you know,

516
00:53:20,010 --> 00:53:25,020
the sort of emotional response of the pleasure of having the little baby put on her chest.

517
00:53:25,980 --> 00:53:31,380
And here is another child. Also hydrogens defending absolutely no forebrain, absolutely no cortex.

518
00:53:31,710 --> 00:53:40,170
And she is obviously not only conscious but emotionally present, which is the important part of the story.

519
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:48,090
I want to go back and reiterate something that I've said already, but say it's slightly more specifically.

520
00:53:48,330 --> 00:53:58,230
I've said that all of the consciousness that is generated in the forebrain, that is to say the somatic sensation, the vision, the hearing,

521
00:53:58,710 --> 00:54:01,740
the parts of the cortex that generate these different properties,

522
00:54:01,740 --> 00:54:07,320
these different modalities that we thought made up the totality of the contents of our consciousness.

523
00:54:07,830 --> 00:54:12,360
None of these structures generate consciousness unless they are activated from below.

524
00:54:12,990 --> 00:54:16,299
You can remove any one of those. You can remove the whole of the full.

525
00:54:16,300 --> 00:54:23,880
Brennan As I showed you, you don't remove consciousness. All you remove is certain types, certain certain types of information processing.

526
00:54:24,180 --> 00:54:28,709
But if you lesion this area over here, you lose all of that type of consciousness.

527
00:54:28,710 --> 00:54:35,340
Therefore, and here's my point. Therefore, what we are talking about is a hierarchical relationship in which these types of consciousness,

528
00:54:35,340 --> 00:54:40,890
which are not intrinsic to this part of the brain. Consciousness is not intrinsic to this part of the brain.

529
00:54:41,070 --> 00:54:46,170
The consciousness is derived from down here. This is what activates the rest of the brain.

530
00:54:46,170 --> 00:54:50,130
And so that's what we always knew. This activates the forebrain.

531
00:54:50,340 --> 00:54:56,760
And it is this area here that activates, therefore, the consciousness that we thought came from the external world.

532
00:54:56,940 --> 00:54:59,669
And we just have to get our heads around that, if you'll excuse the pun.

533
00:54:59,670 --> 00:55:05,070
We just have to get our heads around the fact that the consciousness does not come with the perceptual information.

534
00:55:05,370 --> 00:55:13,140
The perceptual information registered in cortex and the cognition derived from it is intrinsically unconscious.

535
00:55:13,890 --> 00:55:21,660
Some of the things that you heard just now, and Richard Bronze talk refers to a whole sea of information that we've gathered over the last few

536
00:55:21,660 --> 00:55:27,750
decades in cognitive neuroscience about all the things that the full brain can do without consciousness.

537
00:55:28,170 --> 00:55:37,319
You know, there's just about no cognitive operation that can't be performed without consciousness unless you start being tautological and saying,

538
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:40,139
well, episodic memory can't be performed without consciousness.

539
00:55:40,140 --> 00:55:43,680
And that's only because the definition of episodic memory is that it's conscious memory,

540
00:55:43,950 --> 00:55:47,040
that there has to be a central subject bear having the memory,

541
00:55:47,910 --> 00:55:57,840
but reading and solving problems, priming, as you heard, learning the most complex of tasks, all manner of things, decision making of all kinds,

542
00:55:58,290 --> 00:56:04,500
all of this cognitive gymnastics that we are so proud of and that we attribute to our full brains

543
00:56:04,770 --> 00:56:10,020
because we have so much of it in comparison to the mice and rats that you heard about earlier,

544
00:56:10,290 --> 00:56:18,990
all of this stuff, brilliant as it is, commendable as it is, and proud as we should be of it, does not intrinsically require consciousness.

545
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:27,360
The consciousness, as I say, comes from down here. And there's a hierarchical relationship between all these operations and this stuff down here.

546
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:34,740
And I've told you already that this is emotional, that this sort of consciousness is not without quality, it's not without content.

547
00:56:35,010 --> 00:56:39,389
And when I say that there's a hierarchical relationship between these two aspects of consciousness,

548
00:56:39,390 --> 00:56:47,880
I hope that you can see implicit in what I'm saying is also this, that the core basic, raw stuff of consciousness,

549
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:50,969
the fundamental type of consciousness,

550
00:56:50,970 --> 00:57:00,870
the type of consciousness upon which all this other type of consciousness depends is affective consciousness in its most fundamental form,

551
00:57:01,050 --> 00:57:07,650
is affect, is feeling. And when you think about all of the things that we have been puzzling about in cognitive neuroscience,

552
00:57:07,650 --> 00:57:11,070
when we ask ourselves, but what is what is the consciousness for, you know, why?

553
00:57:11,190 --> 00:57:15,690
Why do we need consciousness if we can do all of these brilliant things cognitively without consciousness?

554
00:57:15,690 --> 00:57:25,110
What is the consciousness that it boils down to that to what I've just said to you, it it's feeling that's what you can't have without consciousness.

555
00:57:25,230 --> 00:57:29,580
Feeling your way into your cognitions and feeling your way through your cognitions.

556
00:57:30,030 --> 00:57:34,979
There's some sort of comical problems that cognitive neuroscience have got that good scientists have got themselves into,

557
00:57:34,980 --> 00:57:39,000
like, for example, the famous bonding problem where they ask, how can it happen?

558
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:45,210
The information all arrives here in V1, V2, and then it gets absolutely fragmented in the brain as we process all of the visual stuff.

559
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:48,990
And then over there the movement happens and over there the colour gets added in.

560
00:57:48,990 --> 00:57:56,790
Over there you discover whose face you're looking at, how come all of it gets sent back into this combined bound experience that I have?

561
00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:03,179
It's it's all of that. It's got to do with the misconception that that's where the consciousness is being generated.

562
00:58:03,180 --> 00:58:07,620
The consciousness is down here, it's yours, it's endogenous.

563
00:58:07,620 --> 00:58:10,859
It has to do with my state and it's your consciousness.

564
00:58:10,860 --> 00:58:15,470
And you are activating your perceptions and you are experiencing them.

565
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:19,860
Your presence inside of all of that cognition is what binds it.

566
00:58:20,260 --> 00:58:26,190
So that's how it works, that we always should have known that from the forties and fifties.

567
00:58:26,190 --> 00:58:30,240
And as I say, it's this that together with the colleagues I mentioned earlier, you know,

568
00:58:30,270 --> 00:58:35,700
that we've gradually been sort of almost embarrassed putting together and realising, well, actually that's how it works.

569
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:42,690
And it's probably got something to do with the kind of aversion within our field to affect and to subjectivity and, you know, to,

570
00:58:42,930 --> 00:58:47,700
to the stuff that's back to the departments like English literature, you know,

571
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:53,130
always did and probably always will say much more about that than we do.

572
00:58:53,580 --> 00:58:54,840
So that's how we see it.

573
00:58:54,840 --> 00:59:00,780
And at least that's how the group of colleagues that I mentioned earlier, how those of us who are working on this theory, this is how we see it.

574
00:59:01,170 --> 00:59:12,330
We think that consciousness in its totality is generated here and then lends itself by activating these forebrain cortical thalamic mechanisms.

575
00:59:12,380 --> 00:59:17,850
It is, as it were, samples those representations and lends consciousness to them.

576
00:59:17,850 --> 00:59:22,250
It sort of projects us into our representations which are intrinsically unconscious.

577
00:59:22,590 --> 00:59:29,010
I mean, I really hope I don't need to argue that, you know, this is absolutely definitely established in a million ways,

578
00:59:29,010 --> 00:59:31,890
that all of that cognitive stuff happens without consciousness.

579
00:59:32,220 --> 00:59:39,450
What what it being activated by these structures adds, is the possibility of your being able to feel your way into it.

580
00:59:39,870 --> 00:59:44,610
So now that leads to this question of said, what is the consciousness for?

581
00:59:44,970 --> 00:59:51,209
Well, you know, what I've done in this little drawing here, the red structures, these are body monitoring, body regulating structures.

582
00:59:51,210 --> 00:59:54,390
The hypothalamus is the big ticket item button in this area,

583
00:59:54,400 --> 01:00:00,480
prostrate the stream of the nucleus of the Taurus over the apparent brachial nucleus and certain intricate organs.

584
01:00:00,750 --> 01:00:06,090
These those structures are directly related to monitoring the internal blur and the bodily economy.

585
01:00:06,510 --> 01:00:11,760
They tend to project to these purple structures not incomprehensibly represent, represented, represented,

586
01:00:11,990 --> 01:00:18,600
just wanting you to be able to see things like the dorsal nucleus, nucleus like a surrealist ventral segmental area.

587
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:23,550
Also these non-specific binds the public structures that here which in turn activate the forebrain.

588
01:00:23,850 --> 01:00:30,360
These are thought and this is theory. These are thought to be connected to these body monitoring structures.

589
01:00:30,690 --> 01:00:33,070
Because how are you doing aesthetically?

590
01:00:33,090 --> 01:00:43,170
How you doing in relation to these many parameters of, of the vital needs of the body salt, sugar, oxygen, water, temperature and so on.

591
01:00:43,350 --> 01:00:49,350
How you're doing in relation to these things, you have to have some sort of way of monitoring that as a subject.

592
01:00:49,350 --> 01:00:53,700
How am I doing? Am I doing well? Am I doing badly within the biological scalar values?

593
01:00:54,030 --> 01:00:55,500
And according to this theory,

594
01:00:55,650 --> 01:01:03,330
feelings evolved as a jolly good way of being able to determine how you do anything that's good for your survival and reproductive success.

595
01:01:03,330 --> 01:01:06,450
Monitored in this way feels good, it's pleasurable.

596
01:01:06,810 --> 01:01:11,880
Anything bad for your survival and reproductive success measured in this way feels bad.

597
01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:18,300
So you avoid doing those things which feel bad. You prefer to do those things that feel good.

598
01:01:18,450 --> 01:01:21,720
Why? Because it enhances your chances of surviving and reproducing.

599
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:26,970
That's what consciousness is for. These are very basic 525 million years old.

600
01:01:26,990 --> 01:01:33,680
Those structures, we share them with all vertebrates. Above them are these limbic structures which have which are more complex.

601
01:01:33,690 --> 01:01:38,960
It's not a simple matter of monitoring the here and now in the James language sense of the word of your bodily economy.

602
01:01:39,290 --> 01:01:53,659
But but built in stereotyped behavioural compulsions like fear and rage and exploratory foraging and maternal care and attachment bonding and so on.

603
01:01:53,660 --> 01:02:02,030
All of them with unique neuro anatomies, unique chemistries and unique feeling, states that go with them, that compel us to behave in certain ways.

604
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:07,220
These are varieties of pleasure and pleasure, which are properties of these limbic circuits.

605
01:02:07,460 --> 01:02:11,870
It's not a matter only of here and now. It's also these built in structures, as I say,

606
01:02:11,870 --> 01:02:19,070
that gain intrinsic properties of brain generating these these emotional types of consciousness, which in turn give rise to learning.

607
01:02:19,850 --> 01:02:24,889
So if I take just for example, this what we call the wanting circuit or the seeking circuit,

608
01:02:24,890 --> 01:02:30,230
the so-called badly named brain reward circuit, this dopamine object circuit in the medial forebrain bundle.

609
01:02:30,530 --> 01:02:36,290
This thing motivates the animal, as included, to go out into the world to seek to satisfy our needs.

610
01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:40,400
There you learn what actually satisfying your needs satisfies your needs.

611
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:46,850
Likewise, in relation to the built in mechanisms as to how to how to deal with noxious stimuli.

612
01:02:46,850 --> 01:02:49,159
But then you have to learn in addition to the in-built ones,

613
01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:54,800
you have to learn about all sorts of noxious things that you couldn't do that evolution couldn't have predicted.

614
01:02:55,100 --> 01:03:03,110
And so this whole full brain business adds detail edge content to these basic in the tools for living.

615
01:03:03,110 --> 01:03:10,280
Coming from this instinctual affective part of the mind and feeling your way into these representations is hard.

616
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:15,620
The things that you couldn't predict, how you start to add meaning to them, how you start to grade them.

617
01:03:15,620 --> 01:03:23,959
Is this good? Is this bad? You have to feel your way into these things in order to be able to know what they mean, to know what to do with them,

618
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:32,870
to know how to respond to them, and all of the complexities that come with this, that's what conscious cognition is for, is our hypothesis.

619
01:03:32,870 --> 01:03:38,510
Conscious cognition is there in order for you to be able to feel your way through life's problems.

620
01:03:39,860 --> 01:03:46,219
Once you've solved the problem, once you know how to get to work, for example, you don't keep on thinking, Is this good?

621
01:03:46,220 --> 01:03:54,590
Is this the right way? Is this bad? You know, you're traumatised. And here we move to the famous unconscious cognition and unconscious memory.

622
01:03:54,770 --> 01:03:58,129
You only need explicit memory, you only need episodic memory.

623
01:03:58,130 --> 01:04:03,290
You only need to be able to feel your way through your representations when feelings are required.

624
01:04:03,740 --> 01:04:10,639
But it seems as if the great aim of cognition is to get beyond these troublesome feelings and to be able to automatons things,

625
01:04:10,640 --> 01:04:14,780
to just know exactly how it works. So where is at the level of the brainstem?

626
01:04:15,140 --> 01:04:21,200
There are these homeostatic mechanisms which if you deviate from the set point, it feels good or it feels bad.

627
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:23,930
This is how you know, gosh, this is good, this is bad.

628
01:04:24,110 --> 01:04:30,340
You know, these inbuilt mechanisms down here in relation to vital needs, the same sort of thing seems to happen up at,

629
01:04:30,570 --> 01:04:35,730
at the level of these cortical thalamic representational processes that it's

630
01:04:35,780 --> 01:04:38,929
you have to feel your way through things when there's all this uncertainty,

631
01:04:38,930 --> 01:04:42,530
but then you find a solution that actually meets the need in the outside world.

632
01:04:42,740 --> 01:04:49,760
Then the feelings can recede. And so you don't need episodic, conscious, explicit cognition anymore.

633
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:55,520
And the whole thing gets automatons. Then Bob's your uncle and you're a zombie, and that's what you cognitions aiming for.

634
01:04:56,900 --> 01:05:03,080
I really think that it's kind of alarming that that does seem to be what cognition is aiming for,

635
01:05:03,110 --> 01:05:09,530
the absolute mastery of the environment in relation to your needs so that the feelings can be removed from the equation.

636
01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:20,450
Thank God that world is so unpredictable, so full of surprises, that that ideal some of my cognitive colleagues never, never is actually reached.

637
01:05:20,990 --> 01:05:27,770
So now why am I putting this picture here next to it? Well, it's because this is Freud's drawing of this same apparatus.

638
01:05:28,070 --> 01:05:31,129
And as you know, I am also a psychoanalyst,

639
01:05:31,130 --> 01:05:36,380
and I'm particularly interested in the relationship between the sorts of things that we deal with in psychoanalysis,

640
01:05:36,380 --> 01:05:40,970
the lived life of the mind and the sort of stuff that we deal with in cognitive neuroscience,

641
01:05:41,270 --> 01:05:45,380
that learning with all the wonderful tools that we have available to us these days,

642
01:05:45,530 --> 01:05:51,290
about the same parts of nature that studied from the external mechanistic point

643
01:05:51,290 --> 01:05:55,040
of view rather than from the subjective experiential life point of view.

644
01:05:55,280 --> 01:06:02,690
I'm very keen on drawing parallels between the two and seeing how you know, how we can use how we can correct viewpoint dependent errors.

645
01:06:03,830 --> 01:06:09,590
So it's very gratifying to find that Freud's it, you know, that the drives,

646
01:06:09,590 --> 01:06:17,570
the parts of the mind that that responds to the demands made upon us to perform work by dint of its connection with the body,

647
01:06:17,750 --> 01:06:21,770
that this can be localised. You know, it's also the hope, the perceptual.

648
01:06:21,850 --> 01:06:25,059
Surfaces and the memory systems that are attached to them.

649
01:06:25,060 --> 01:06:28,270
These can be localised. Freud called them aid and ego.

650
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:33,060
And the fact that these things down here drive these things up here, you know,

651
01:06:33,070 --> 01:06:39,790
it's very nice to see that we can more or less dynamically localise that relationship.

652
01:06:39,970 --> 01:06:49,400
But the big surprise is this Freud, as you can see from this drawing, thought of the ID as being synonymous with the unconscious,

653
01:06:49,420 --> 01:06:53,560
or at least overlapping in very large part with what he called the unconscious.

654
01:06:53,950 --> 01:06:57,580
But if you think about what I told you at the beginning of this short presentation,

655
01:06:57,850 --> 01:07:04,690
as much as this part of the brain performs all the functions that Freud attributed to it, in fact, this part of the brain,

656
01:07:04,690 --> 01:07:11,079
very far from being unconscious, is the fault of all consciousness and of affective consciousness,

657
01:07:11,080 --> 01:07:16,750
which you would think would be the part I think Freud's pleasure principle governs down here.

658
01:07:16,780 --> 01:07:23,769
You know, you would think that this would also please psychoanalysts and Freud's to discover that this part of the brain,

659
01:07:23,770 --> 01:07:30,880
the part of the brain, is generating all these primitive, instinctual affective mechanisms, the compulsive motivations that go with them.

660
01:07:31,180 --> 01:07:37,330
But in fact, if Freud was it was claiming, as he was, that this part of the mind is unconscious,

661
01:07:37,480 --> 01:07:40,840
then how on earth could it be the generator of ethics?

662
01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:45,030
In fact, how could there be a pleasure principle governing this part of the mind?

663
01:07:45,040 --> 01:07:51,400
What's what is a pleasure principle that's unconscious? I mean, what is the point of pleasure and unpleasant if you don't feel it?

664
01:07:51,850 --> 01:08:00,430
You know, so the great error, it appears in Freud's topologies is this type of this topographical model of the mind.

665
01:08:00,670 --> 01:08:05,020
There are many contradictions in it which are happily sort of like resolved when we

666
01:08:05,020 --> 01:08:09,490
realise in fact the part of the mind that performs the functions that Freud called it,

667
01:08:09,700 --> 01:08:19,239
a fall from being unconscious. This is, as I said, the font of all consciousness and consciousness in the raw, its most basic form is effort and,

668
01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:25,660
and these primitive feelings which represent demands upon the mind to perform work because they're problems.

669
01:08:25,660 --> 01:08:30,670
Something's going wrong here. Something I can't manage. And that's what all the cognition is for.

670
01:08:30,910 --> 01:08:34,479
It's to learn. How do I deal with this feeling in the outside world?

671
01:08:34,480 --> 01:08:38,980
How do I meet the needs, solve the problems that these feelings represent?

672
01:08:39,370 --> 01:08:45,010
And the aim of doing all of that is, as I've said to you already, in order to render it unconscious.

673
01:08:45,310 --> 01:08:49,540
So the great irony is that the ID is the conscious part of the mind,

674
01:08:49,780 --> 01:08:53,800
the function of the ego, which Freud thought of as being the conscious part of the mind.

675
01:08:53,980 --> 01:08:59,110
The function of the ego is to temporarily represent its workings,

676
01:08:59,230 --> 01:09:04,270
its cognitive doings in consciousness, so that you can feel your way through the problems,

677
01:09:04,630 --> 01:09:10,510
and then ultimately to automatons that cognition to render it unconscious,

678
01:09:10,690 --> 01:09:16,060
which is the ideal state of affairs as far as the ego and cognition is concerned.

679
01:09:16,570 --> 01:09:24,820
In order to be able to that is to say, tame all these feelings, all of these emotions, all of the demands upon the mind to perform work.

680
01:09:25,240 --> 01:09:28,090
So where does this leave us? And this is the last thing I'm going to say to you.

681
01:09:28,090 --> 01:09:34,000
Where does this leave us as far as Freud's repressed and the famous unconscious is concerned?

682
01:09:34,390 --> 01:09:39,219
I think that it's it's not a different place from the unconscious that I've spoken

683
01:09:39,220 --> 01:09:42,879
to you about already in relation to cognition that you heard about earlier,

684
01:09:42,880 --> 01:09:44,740
in relation to memory mechanisms,

685
01:09:45,130 --> 01:09:55,870
the unconscious of the cognitive scientists is the same place as the unconscious of the Freudian and the psychoanalysts,

686
01:09:56,410 --> 01:10:01,060
2 to 2 to sort of roughly and readily translated into functional anatomy.

687
01:10:01,300 --> 01:10:08,800
It's a sort of chunking down from cortex to a basal ganglia, cerebellum, sort of levels of functioning.

688
01:10:09,310 --> 01:10:12,700
This is automatism of of, of cognition.

689
01:10:13,300 --> 01:10:17,140
This is what happens with the sort of normal process that I spoke about earlier.

690
01:10:17,470 --> 01:10:25,420
But I think that what the repressed consists in and this is an absolutely speculative but I think worthy of some attention hypothesis,

691
01:10:25,810 --> 01:10:30,160
is that it's the same thing, but it's premature.

692
01:10:30,790 --> 01:10:38,770
That's when you've solved the problem, like how to get to work you can legitimately or the representational cognitive process involved.

693
01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:43,750
But if you console that and you're still traumatised that then you have repressed it.

694
01:10:43,960 --> 01:10:49,690
Why would we do that? Well, it's because there are consciousness is a very small place.

695
01:10:49,690 --> 01:10:54,940
You can only think about a very few things at any one point in time, so you must use it wisely.

696
01:10:55,390 --> 01:11:02,380
And if there are insoluble problems, there's no point in bothering your mind with the day in and day out because you're not going to get anywhere.

697
01:11:03,010 --> 01:11:08,740
It's best to just put it out of mind and say, Well, let me get on with the things that I can deal with in childhood.

698
01:11:09,160 --> 01:11:13,570
If you care to remember, there are a great many things you simply can't solve.

699
01:11:14,680 --> 01:11:17,709
There are a great many once a great, many desires.

700
01:11:17,710 --> 01:11:21,220
A great, many feelings that are generated in childhood.

701
01:11:21,790 --> 01:11:28,330
There's all sorts of bubbling over it, things which cannot be resolved in the outside world.

702
01:11:28,340 --> 01:11:35,950
I'll give you a sort of an example. I'm a little three year old Mark Salt, and I look at my daddy and I think I want to be big like him.

703
01:11:37,000 --> 01:11:41,320
Well, you can't because you three. Yeah. I want to go to work like him.

704
01:11:41,980 --> 01:11:46,930
You can't. You don't know. What the [INAUDIBLE] are you doing? Nobody's going to give you a job. I want to drive a car like him.

705
01:11:47,380 --> 01:11:53,780
I want to be married. I want to be married to her. These things are you know, they're not going to happen.

706
01:11:53,800 --> 01:12:01,390
I want babies now. You can't. So you know all the feelings and all the desires and all the hatreds and all

707
01:12:01,390 --> 01:12:05,080
the resentments and all the anxieties and everything that go with all of that.

708
01:12:05,380 --> 01:12:11,980
You know, it's no point in pondering at all and trying to resolve it cognitively just traumatise it and say, okay, that's the way that it is.

709
01:12:12,310 --> 01:12:14,130
You know, I'm not thinking about that anymore.

710
01:12:14,140 --> 01:12:20,530
Then frozen in time and then, you know, it opens up your mind to be able to carry on with those things that you can resolve.

711
01:12:20,770 --> 01:12:24,520
I think that's what the repressed is. It's automatons, cognitions.

712
01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:27,969
Just illegitimately or traumatised. The problem hasn't been solved.

713
01:12:27,970 --> 01:12:31,840
What that means is the feelings still bubble up but pop out all over the place.

714
01:12:32,080 --> 01:12:35,170
So what Freud famously called the threat of the return of the repressed,

715
01:12:35,680 --> 01:12:39,730
because your predictions, in fact constantly lead to what Friston calls prediction errors.

716
01:12:40,390 --> 01:12:45,310
And then you have this unbound energy again. Then you have this free energy, and then you have the effect again.

717
01:12:45,520 --> 01:12:52,480
But it can't be attached to the representations that it belongs to, because those representations have been rendered unconscious.

718
01:12:52,840 --> 01:12:54,180
That's how I think it works.

719
01:12:54,190 --> 01:13:03,760
And therefore our task as psychoanalysts, in order to allow reconsolidation to happen, in order to allow this frozen in time,

720
01:13:04,000 --> 01:13:12,040
wrongheaded solution and wrongheaded prediction to be revised in the light of new knowledge is it has to be felt again,

721
01:13:12,250 --> 01:13:18,610
has to be rendered into episodic memory again. It has to be with all of the feelings and all of the troubles and all of the difficulties it involves.

722
01:13:19,540 --> 01:13:23,320
Take a deep breath. Hold your analyst hand. Little, little. But you know what I mean.

723
01:13:23,620 --> 01:13:27,250
And in this way, you know, think your way through it again.

724
01:13:27,400 --> 01:13:34,209
And automaton is a better solution. Something like that, I think, is how it works in psychic analysis.

725
01:13:34,210 --> 01:13:39,610
And I'll end just with this one last observation, which my psychoanalytic colleagues also don't like.

726
01:13:39,610 --> 01:13:47,799
Some of the things I've just told you, and I point out to them that our patients don't come to us saying, Doctor, I'm unconscious of something.

727
01:13:47,800 --> 01:13:52,660
Can you please tell me what it is? Our patients come to us saying, I'm feeling like this.

728
01:13:52,660 --> 01:13:55,840
I'm troubled by feelings. I can't cope with this feeling.

729
01:13:56,290 --> 01:14:05,769
And our job is to deal with those feelings by finding the right kinds of representations that can actually manage those feelings in the outside world.

730
01:14:05,770 --> 01:14:09,880
And in order to do that, we first have to unfreeze the repressed ones.

731
01:14:10,240 --> 01:14:18,010
So that's a broad brushstroke picture of how I see now unconscious memory in the Freudian sense of the word,

732
01:14:18,010 --> 01:14:23,350
in relation to cognitive science and in relation to brain mechanisms of consciousness generally.

733
01:14:23,620 --> 01:14:27,190
And I think that we're in exciting times. Thanks very much.