1 00:00:00,110 --> 00:00:05,400 The Platforming Autists podcast series is supported by Tooch as part of humanity's cultural programme. 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:11,460 Hello, everyone. Thank you for joining us for our second episode of our podcast. And we're really excited to welcome this on Our Métier today. 3 00:00:11,460 --> 00:00:15,210 Here is one of the spoken word artists on Madad. Thank you for coming. 4 00:00:15,210 --> 00:00:19,260 How are you? Hey, man, thanks so much for having me. How are you? 5 00:00:19,260 --> 00:00:27,780 Not doing badly at all. We're gonna have hopefully a very interesting discussion today about your work 2020 and what the [INAUDIBLE] that is entailed. 6 00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:31,540 But let me just introduce you to all listeners. 7 00:00:31,540 --> 00:00:36,030 So as our own studied English and drama at the Royal Holloway and then trained as part of the Army, 8 00:00:36,030 --> 00:00:42,240 the young company and the twenty nineteen young company, and then as well, it's sort of across many different theatrical productions. 9 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:47,910 You did Conspiracy at the Underbelly Edinborough, which then translates New Diorama Festival. 10 00:00:47,910 --> 00:00:54,510 So you're wonderful at that. But we've also obviously got your incredible poetry involved with our production, your incredible spoken word, poet. 11 00:00:54,510 --> 00:01:00,570 And so you've got quite the credentials there. Semi-finalist on the BBC World's best spoken word scheme. 12 00:01:00,570 --> 00:01:05,680 And just very recently, a month ago, finalist of the 2020 Roundhouse Poetry Slam. 13 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:09,030 You're preparing for a national theatre show next year. 14 00:01:09,030 --> 00:01:17,550 And you also currently set something that I'm sure we'll talk about at length on the Almeida's Youth Advisory Board and often even young company. 15 00:01:17,550 --> 00:01:23,880 You talk to the Armida and about diversity and about many of the things obviously we discuss and represent here comedian. 16 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:28,390 So it's so great to have you on. And thank you again so much for joining us. Thank you. 17 00:01:28,390 --> 00:01:32,490 Well, with having lifted read out. 18 00:01:32,490 --> 00:01:41,220 Well, we met yesterday sort of a quick midia intro. We met through Fran obviously, who has just had a podcast should go that one if you haven't. 19 00:01:41,220 --> 00:01:45,780 And yeah, you're gonna be doing a sort of spoken word in the middle of all of our show. 20 00:01:45,780 --> 00:01:50,340 I mean, Madea bit of a road project. We sort of approach you with what now? 21 00:01:50,340 --> 00:01:54,910 Three months ago. Yeah. No. Yeah. Fran is is amazing. 22 00:01:54,910 --> 00:01:59,450 And definitely cheque out that episode because she has. Yeah. 23 00:01:59,450 --> 00:02:02,990 She's just an amazing artist and person. Yeah. Yeah. 24 00:02:02,990 --> 00:02:07,080 And here we are three months in and I'm excited. We've not met obviously. 25 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:13,100 Twenty twenty. Know each other in person. But let's talk about it obviously. 26 00:02:13,100 --> 00:02:17,560 Lockdown. Lockdown now for 3.0 in tearful. 27 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:22,620 How is lockdown baby. I mean, obviously no one wants talk too much about the credit myself being an autistic. 28 00:02:22,620 --> 00:02:30,180 Hopefully an interesting autistic space for you. Here he had dispensary's locked down talking about her. 29 00:02:30,180 --> 00:02:34,380 I think, you know, the initial one artistic sense for sure. 30 00:02:34,380 --> 00:02:43,050 But what was really interesting for me, and I'm sure a lot of people can relate in the sense of self development. 31 00:02:43,050 --> 00:02:47,250 I sort of had a phone call from my best friends are looked down. 32 00:02:47,250 --> 00:02:55,770 And he was he said to me, you know, you need to spend some time doing stuff that has nothing to do with acting. 33 00:02:55,770 --> 00:02:59,310 Because I you know, I graduate in 2018. And it's not that long ago. 34 00:02:59,310 --> 00:03:05,630 And I'm super young still. But it's just been kind of non-stop. Mentally, yeah. 35 00:03:05,630 --> 00:03:12,120 And the last couple years have been really hectic. So to have that space, to actually not do anything. 36 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:18,390 And discover and rediscover myself without sounding super sort of wonky about it. 37 00:03:18,390 --> 00:03:27,010 It's been really, really nice. Well, I got up, too. I started doing meditation, which is great. 38 00:03:27,010 --> 00:03:39,370 Like, I was always super sceptical about it because I know wellness culture got that big fat W, which can be wellness or or whiteness. 39 00:03:39,370 --> 00:03:43,080 Yeah. But it's giving me a lot of space. 40 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:50,160 It's been lovely and it's been a really nice journey to sort of get back into the creative stuff because obviously you've had the poetry slam, 41 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,120 so you've obviously had time to write on your writing for us right now. 42 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:57,330 It's been a creative space, not just acting wise, but poetry wise for you as well. 43 00:03:57,330 --> 00:04:02,790 Poetry wise. It's been amazing. I've done I think it was the most time I've spent writing. 44 00:04:02,790 --> 00:04:08,100 I was really lucky to do the world's first game with the BBC over summer. 45 00:04:08,100 --> 00:04:14,430 And it was online workshops. And it really challenged my craft and got me thinking about writing different ways, 46 00:04:14,430 --> 00:04:19,110 which then helped me get to roundhouse, which is which was amazing. 47 00:04:19,110 --> 00:04:24,000 Yeah. And we're going to talk about the piece that you did at around us later on today. 48 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,460 I'm talking about Lockton. Obviously, we've had the coronavirus this year. 49 00:04:27,460 --> 00:04:32,500 But the other thing that's been going on that hopefully everyone is still thinking about is this massive race recording that we've had. 50 00:04:32,500 --> 00:04:36,240 And it seems impossible to talk about 2020 without talking about that either. 51 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:41,580 I mean, have you found that this is as a person of colour, as an intelligence or a Pakistani? 52 00:04:41,580 --> 00:04:49,750 You spent four years studying guitar, so you've had sort of a more international outlook, your Muslim and your work, as, you know, discoveries. 53 00:04:49,750 --> 00:04:53,910 It's very to do with your identity. I mean, how is that self new this year? 54 00:04:53,910 --> 00:04:58,860 And what have you been thinking of more broadly feeling about what's been going on around us? 55 00:04:58,860 --> 00:05:04,590 It is a strange wanted to know, because I'm an optimist, right? 56 00:05:04,590 --> 00:05:12,070 And it feels like with things like social media, which can be a blessing and a curse, 57 00:05:12,070 --> 00:05:23,070 that a lot more people's lenses have been widened to these things, especially with, you know, George Floyds murder and the whole the resurgence. 58 00:05:23,070 --> 00:05:27,420 The BLM movement feels like more people are aware of that now. 59 00:05:27,420 --> 00:05:36,160 And that's a great and necessary thing. But what's more important to me is seeing how many of those people. 60 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,850 Keep paying attention to it and keep doing the work themselves. 61 00:05:39,850 --> 00:05:45,060 We've all got work to do, you know. And it was. I thought it became a conflict zone. 62 00:05:45,060 --> 00:05:48,920 I like seeing it. I think it put up on everyone's stories and stuff. 63 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:55,530 It was great. But then I felt the sense of, you know, people like me, you friend. 64 00:05:55,530 --> 00:06:01,830 You know, our network, our generation of votes of colour, people of colour have been talking about these things. 65 00:06:01,830 --> 00:06:07,500 And we're not the first the generations before us. So how do we keep this momentum going? 66 00:06:07,500 --> 00:06:11,840 And it's not all on us. So, yes, it's it's a mix. 67 00:06:11,840 --> 00:06:19,970 You know, this is a real mix. We're in a sort of different position whereby sort of south South Asians, 68 00:06:19,970 --> 00:06:26,450 Indian subcontinent, obviously Pakistan and India being a unique positioning, I think, 69 00:06:26,450 --> 00:06:33,260 because there's been an incredibly necessary focus on on what it means to be to be a person of colour, 70 00:06:33,260 --> 00:06:37,730 but obviously very specifically that the real struggle that it can can be to have a BlackBerry. 71 00:06:37,730 --> 00:06:41,860 And we come from a culture that struggles with racism, obviously not as much, 72 00:06:41,860 --> 00:06:47,480 and also has our own racism to deal with when it comes to other other any other people of colour. 73 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,590 I mean, where I'm from, India and Pakistan, there's a whole different story. 74 00:06:51,590 --> 00:06:55,670 I mean, there's a wonderful line in one of your poems, duets between minarets and Mondays. 75 00:06:55,670 --> 00:07:02,640 We see constant fighting between the nationalist nature of India and Hinduism versus stone. 76 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:07,070 There's so many really nuance conversations that what you have to say about I mean, 77 00:07:07,070 --> 00:07:12,500 the long list of things I just gave you there that have been food for thought over the last six months. 78 00:07:12,500 --> 00:07:21,670 I mean, you know, within South Asian culture is rife with anti blackness and, you know, rampant colorism, which flows throughout. 79 00:07:21,670 --> 00:07:27,170 And it's something we have to really address. And that was something I was glad to see come up. 80 00:07:27,170 --> 00:07:32,060 Amongst the conversations that started over the summer was that, you know. 81 00:07:32,060 --> 00:07:39,260 Yes. Middle-Class White liberals living in Hampstead have work to do, but we also have work to do. 82 00:07:39,260 --> 00:07:43,360 Absolutely. Yamana is I know. 83 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:47,590 How do you feel as a South Asian person going through this? I think it's both. 84 00:07:47,590 --> 00:07:53,000 I think that I have a feeling that our community doesn't take. 85 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:58,280 This is serious. It should not only for its own, as you say, colorism, which is huge. 86 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:08,180 I mean, India is one of the biggest buyers of whitening products globally, but also more relation to to to black bodies. 87 00:08:08,180 --> 00:08:12,030 The fact that my parents, as as many Indian immigrants did, grew up in Africa. 88 00:08:12,030 --> 00:08:15,740 So they have a very my my family has lived in India for over 100 years. 89 00:08:15,740 --> 00:08:25,850 This is really strange sense of. Diaspora that goes in my family from Madagascar to Malawi to Kenya to eventually ending up in England. 90 00:08:25,850 --> 00:08:32,510 And so it's such a bizarre story that I think is so unique. But on the flip side, we don't see that much. 91 00:08:32,510 --> 00:08:36,910 And I'm sure you're great and we don't see that much South Asian representation. I can take the example. 92 00:08:36,910 --> 00:08:42,140 Not in Fashion Week, just in February where I was working and there were maybe one or two brown models. 93 00:08:42,140 --> 00:08:50,690 There are really a diverse set of models, but there seems to be a blind spot still for what is one and a half billion billion people. 94 00:08:50,690 --> 00:08:54,060 Might your work obviously directly addresses that in a very interesting way. 95 00:08:54,060 --> 00:09:01,250 But what do you have to say as a as a sort of South Asian? So I particularly am about all representation in this whole larger narrative. 96 00:09:01,250 --> 00:09:07,260 I think it is these two things. And I like to pick apart from this and like. 97 00:09:07,260 --> 00:09:14,370 The first one is with this, some of the antiblack missing colorism that we have right within the South Asian culture. 98 00:09:14,370 --> 00:09:18,840 I was thinking about, you know what? Why is I think, you know. 99 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:23,240 And it's to do with this whole history of empire. Yeah, sure. 100 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:27,210 Right. And this idea that white whiteness. 101 00:09:27,210 --> 00:09:32,250 Yeah. Whiteness is close to civilised living and godliness and whatever, whatever. 102 00:09:32,250 --> 00:09:37,970 So it was darker, as you know. And so you. 103 00:09:37,970 --> 00:09:42,270 I don't if I'm allowed to swear, but it's just so messed up. 104 00:09:42,270 --> 00:09:51,000 And the thing that I always points back to Empire, which is what I'm finding, is something that I want to maybe try and push against. 105 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,550 But, you know, it is is matter. 106 00:09:54,550 --> 00:09:59,250 And in terms of representation, can I ask you and then I'll answer as well and I'll go into it. 107 00:09:59,250 --> 00:10:04,710 But do you consider yourself English? Very good question. 108 00:10:04,710 --> 00:10:10,380 I think that I, I, I. Studied English literature. 109 00:10:10,380 --> 00:10:14,100 I have grown up in London. I am. I am English. 110 00:10:14,100 --> 00:10:19,080 I speak English as my first language. But on the flip side, you know, my mom very much, my mom didn't grow up. 111 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,930 She's spent her first 18 years in Malawi and considers herself, well, our way. 112 00:10:22,930 --> 00:10:27,280 And my dad spent a few years in Kenya. So he more considers himself Indian. 113 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:34,440 I feel like especially with these South Indians who've moved South Asians or who've moved across Selimi different places. 114 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:38,580 There's a reluctance to call myself English, but it's sort of necessary. 115 00:10:38,580 --> 00:10:45,420 I am. But equally, I don't know whether to call myself Indian because in one hundred years has passed since any of my close family. 116 00:10:45,420 --> 00:10:50,180 And anyway, I've lived in India and I'm not, you know, does that make me sort of half mile away? 117 00:10:50,180 --> 00:10:51,450 It's so confusing. 118 00:10:51,450 --> 00:11:00,240 The sense of diaspora has been so separated from any sense of origin, in just my opinion, that I find it very hard to call myself anything. 119 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:04,680 It's a great thing. In some ways, I love being able to draw from so many different things. 120 00:11:04,680 --> 00:11:09,270 But the reluctance to call myself English, the reluctance to call myself engender reluctance to call myself. 121 00:11:09,270 --> 00:11:15,000 But either way, I know my grandmother spent 20 years in Madagascar. It's given something that I just don't know. 122 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:20,910 I think it's the best answer to the question. I mean, please. Yeah, you answer. That's really honest, man. 123 00:11:20,910 --> 00:11:25,500 Appreciate that. And that's the thing when it comes to representation, which we'll chat a bit about. 124 00:11:25,500 --> 00:11:30,120 In effect, your family story is so layered and there's so much going on. 125 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:35,130 You're not just Indian. Right. Yeah. But that's how we're seen in the larger picture. 126 00:11:35,130 --> 00:11:40,800 But I ask that question because I was doing a workshop for a play last week. 127 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:46,920 And it's about, you know, it's generational story about a Brown family. 128 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:54,060 That's what I can kind of say, a living in Britain. And the director asked that question to us. 129 00:11:54,060 --> 00:11:58,260 People in the room being me, myself and third generation British, Pakistani. 130 00:11:58,260 --> 00:12:06,620 And there were some people there who were old enough to be my dad and my mom also, you know, British, Asian. 131 00:12:06,620 --> 00:12:11,150 And it's super interesting because the older generation, those actors were saying, 132 00:12:11,150 --> 00:12:16,460 yes, we are English like because we've not been anything else but English. 133 00:12:16,460 --> 00:12:23,030 Even when she's back to Empire, those two hundred years, everything was shaped by the English. 134 00:12:23,030 --> 00:12:28,570 How we we we move we've morphed ourselves into the. 135 00:12:28,570 --> 00:12:34,780 And that was his response. And there's a duality there of like the historical historical accuracy, 136 00:12:34,780 --> 00:12:41,260 but also that sort of when he was comparing nothing in Britain, it was very different. 137 00:12:41,260 --> 00:12:48,460 And there was that sort of desire to fit in, to be seen as English, not good immigrant. 138 00:12:48,460 --> 00:13:03,760 Yeah, exactly. Whereas you come to me and unlike Nahar, you know, it's I, I reject the word English because that for me reminds me of that. 139 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:08,160 Was it St Georges? Is that the cross the word. 140 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:15,810 That has connotations of that, and that reminds me of like an F skinheads and that sort of Englishness, that idea. 141 00:13:15,810 --> 00:13:19,620 What I would say is British, Pakistani, right. 142 00:13:19,620 --> 00:13:25,260 I am British. For me encapsulates, you know, what I see when I go down. 143 00:13:25,260 --> 00:13:35,400 People from everywhere and we all are united by this commonality of Britishness, of queuing up the politeness or whatever, whatever. 144 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:45,380 But then I have to mention to Pakistani because because that's a big part of me and I get the argument of like, yeah, but we're just British. 145 00:13:45,380 --> 00:13:49,970 Cool. I get that. But that doesn't mean I have to erase. 146 00:13:49,970 --> 00:13:55,560 I have to delete the Pakistani from when I say, you know, I mean, yeah, it is very interesting. 147 00:13:55,560 --> 00:13:59,650 And I think you've got sort of further complication. 148 00:13:59,650 --> 00:14:01,380 I know what you would use there, 149 00:14:01,380 --> 00:14:08,290 but you're also Muslim and that comes with its own whole set of different stereotypes and different prejudices that if you want to talk, 150 00:14:08,290 --> 00:14:12,420 talk a bit about that. Yeah, I feel. Yeah, man. 151 00:14:12,420 --> 00:14:14,930 I mean, someone asked me once a few years ago, like, 152 00:14:14,930 --> 00:14:21,600 I you could go back to any time period in the world where which one, which one would you go rather. 153 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:33,660 And the first thing that kind of came up to my head was this like maybe the 90s or just anytime pre 9/11 because I was four when 9/11 happened. 154 00:14:33,660 --> 00:14:42,000 And I've really I've not really lived in a world where Muslims haven't been public enemy number one in the tabloids and stuff. 155 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:51,960 There's a brilliant, brilliant photography book by a friend of mine, my DOB Hussein called You Get Me. 156 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,560 Where he sort of, I think over eight years, maybe longer. 157 00:14:55,560 --> 00:15:00,590 He photographed working class British Muslim men. Different ones. 158 00:15:00,590 --> 00:15:06,830 And has their quotes, along with the pictures in this book and on the back of the book. 159 00:15:06,830 --> 00:15:13,450 It's just riddled with headlines. You know, to see how much is affected. 160 00:15:13,450 --> 00:15:25,650 Muslims, British Muslims. I think that's why. You know, I I feel compelled to include the Pakistani side within a sentence because it's like. 161 00:15:25,650 --> 00:15:31,210 You know. I know that I'm Muslim. Right. You know, I'm Muslim. 162 00:15:31,210 --> 00:15:38,140 And. Like what we're trying to say in in Britain today. 163 00:15:38,140 --> 00:15:46,560 There is that big othering of Muslims. So we can always we can try and be British, but if we're Muslim, you know, that's on the you know, 164 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:53,370 you know, the premises talked about in letterboxes, all that sort of stuff. So I'm not going to shut up about that to. 165 00:15:53,370 --> 00:16:01,030 You know, if you're going to say this thing about Muslims than me telling you I'm a Muslim and Pakistani. 166 00:16:01,030 --> 00:16:06,920 By me saying that I'm showing you what else a Muslim can be. 167 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:13,980 It does make sense and obviously I can. When we get on to your work, I mean, it's obviously very clear that you you your name is. 168 00:16:13,980 --> 00:16:19,070 Is the name of the Muslim call to prayer. I mean, it's sort of hard to hard to avoid. 169 00:16:19,070 --> 00:16:23,680 But. How do you think that I'm going sort of more to the theatrical world? 170 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:29,140 How do you think that affects your work, your writing, both as an actor, obviously, and a writer and your identity? 171 00:16:29,140 --> 00:16:32,710 How does that play into the roles you get? The roles you work on? 172 00:16:32,710 --> 00:16:37,670 How you try to position yourself within this hopefully changing industry? 173 00:16:37,670 --> 00:16:47,290 Here is an. It is I've been very lucky, really lucky since I sort of stepped into the industry professionally. 174 00:16:47,290 --> 00:16:51,380 I have a great relationship with my agent. 175 00:16:51,380 --> 00:17:00,800 And I've not been sent any terrorist rules very lightly because we have the understanding, but also the industry is shifting away from that. 176 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:05,690 It's still there. But, you know, I don't want to be a part of it. 177 00:17:05,690 --> 00:17:12,710 My agent knows that. And, you know, I. What I really love is when I go into an audition, there's two things I really love. 178 00:17:12,710 --> 00:17:23,390 When I go when I get the script that is that honours and acknowledges the rich culture that we have of South Asians. 179 00:17:23,390 --> 00:17:28,340 And then the other time is when I go into an audition room or a waiting room and 180 00:17:28,340 --> 00:17:33,580 I see guys of all different colours and creeds going through the same path. 181 00:17:33,580 --> 00:17:37,350 And that has happened a few times less than I would have liked. 182 00:17:37,350 --> 00:17:41,870 But something like that really is like, OK, cool. 183 00:17:41,870 --> 00:17:45,140 Like the playing field is being sort of level. 184 00:17:45,140 --> 00:17:53,210 Talking of theatre and this potential change in production is like I wrote in so many good jobs and Taliban and Tamasha and tell us there are great, 185 00:17:53,210 --> 00:17:57,440 great companies that are doing this. What do you think? I mean, we've seen these last five months. 186 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:01,400 You sit on the board of an extremely influential theatre. 187 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:06,640 Do you think the industry is changing? I mean, what do you think? It is happening, which I think should happen. 188 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,950 I'm into a little bit about what is going on in states particularly, obviously, 189 00:18:09,950 --> 00:18:15,190 that's a much bigger narrative socially that just in Beijing, the industry, obviously, that we're working in right now. 190 00:18:15,190 --> 00:18:20,800 I think, you know, I can only speak from my perspective and being so. 191 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:32,970 Yeah, I sit on the Olmeda Youth Board. And it seems when when all the faces is their statements and whatever, it was nice to see at this point. 192 00:18:32,970 --> 00:18:40,540 Everything feels performative. And I know I know it's been halted, defensive, covered in everything, 193 00:18:40,540 --> 00:18:46,170 but when things start starting up again, then we'll see who's really doing the work. 194 00:18:46,170 --> 00:18:51,000 And from from a youthful perspective, it's been really enlightening because it's one thing. 195 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:59,770 You know, just young people always talking about change and really being know loud with it and then actually doing the work. 196 00:18:59,770 --> 00:19:06,030 So I loved being on the board and sort of learning the the logistics behind stuff. 197 00:19:06,030 --> 00:19:13,830 And I think the biggest thing and we've spoken about it before, like a lot of theatres are getting in their own way. 198 00:19:13,830 --> 00:19:17,180 You know, they stand in their own way of their own progress. 199 00:19:17,180 --> 00:19:26,530 So I can only hope, but the real change comes from having people of colour in the room, in the room, in the very step of the way. 200 00:19:26,530 --> 00:19:34,370 Yeah, absolutely. And we see that happening in some grimy young black is a fantastic example of a group that has has people of 201 00:19:34,370 --> 00:19:39,470 colour all across the building and the army to having youth food is an example of things that needs to happen. 202 00:19:39,470 --> 00:19:44,270 And hopefully we'll see that change that you are one of the people making that change with your work. 203 00:19:44,270 --> 00:19:47,930 And I think it's it's just about time we talk about these in court. 204 00:19:47,930 --> 00:19:52,190 I was lucky enough yesterday to have you said me sort of seven, eight, seven, eight of your recent works. 205 00:19:52,190 --> 00:20:00,080 And I've seen, obviously, that the stuff that you did for the Roundhouse and you create work that's very close to. 206 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:09,590 Your heart very close to who you are and your identity, your very vocal. And just to quote yourself, you about your say in voice and can't cry. 207 00:20:09,590 --> 00:20:17,180 My poems, quite matter of fact. I don't hold back. And later on, you say my poems are used to incite racial or religious tension. 208 00:20:17,180 --> 00:20:24,510 My intention is to highlight, to mention and bring our stories to to attention is a very interesting I mean, 209 00:20:24,510 --> 00:20:30,260 is a clear statement of view on what you do. I'd love to talk about your writing and this particular idea. 210 00:20:30,260 --> 00:20:34,170 You're not using your inciting anything. You're just bringing things to attention. 211 00:20:34,170 --> 00:20:36,760 I mean, talk to me about that. 212 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:48,650 Yeah, I I think, you know, especially the earlier poems was just a way to get things off my chest that I had thought about saying over. 213 00:20:48,650 --> 00:20:52,600 I think my three years at uni were even before that man. 214 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:58,590 Like, the way I got into poetry was a bit weird. 215 00:20:58,590 --> 00:21:02,440 Like I thought I was I had never written before. I was an actor. 216 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:07,780 I was really naive. And I used to think that, like all you know, you know, you see, those people were actor, 217 00:21:07,780 --> 00:21:13,600 writer, director, producer, prop maker, you know, tap dancer, you know, like. 218 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:17,750 Yeah. And I used to have the thought of, like, okay. 219 00:21:17,750 --> 00:21:23,620 But like, if you really want to be an actor, stop doing all that other stuff. You're just wasting your energy. 220 00:21:23,620 --> 00:21:36,370 Very nice. But yeah, the poetry stuff came about because I was attending National Shoot Drama Festival and STF in twenty nineteen. 221 00:21:36,370 --> 00:21:43,790 I came there and one of the associates there, the brilliant actor and Craib, called Neema Talabani. 222 00:21:43,790 --> 00:21:51,610 He noticed me probably because we were one of few brown people in the building and we had a little chat. 223 00:21:51,610 --> 00:22:02,460 And later on that night he said to me, you know, four years ago he got noticed here by doing raps at the open mike. 224 00:22:02,460 --> 00:22:07,810 Right. And then he turned and said to me, I think you should write something and do it. 225 00:22:07,810 --> 00:22:15,540 OK. I've never written before. But let's see, I kind of dismissed it, went away that night where I was staying. 226 00:22:15,540 --> 00:22:20,100 And for whatever reason, you know, just the words I was coming. 227 00:22:20,100 --> 00:22:26,010 I was reading a poetry book at the time, so call it divine time and call it whatever you want. 228 00:22:26,010 --> 00:22:30,390 I wrote this poem which ended up being called me by my name. 229 00:22:30,390 --> 00:22:37,200 And then I was like, OK, cool. I've written this. I have no idea if it's completely crap or not. 230 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:42,030 So I'm going to get a coffee enema spit to him. And if he thinks it's all right, I'll do it. 231 00:22:42,030 --> 00:22:46,320 If not, I'll just, you know, whatever way in self-pity and just discard. 232 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,760 I never do again. Got this coffee within the next day. 233 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:56,250 And right at the beginning he was out. OK, cool. Halfway through, my friend Roy might join us. 234 00:22:56,250 --> 00:23:02,040 Okay, cool. Yeah. Roy is just another student. That's fine. But I'm going to do this poem for you. 235 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:08,460 And it turns out that that Roy was Mr. Roy Alexander Wise and B. 236 00:23:08,460 --> 00:23:13,440 E artistic director of the Royal Exchange in Manchester. 237 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:18,030 I never met Roy at all. I'm sitting in front of them both. 238 00:23:18,030 --> 00:23:24,700 Got this poem on my phone. I'm shaking and I decide to do it because I have to. 239 00:23:24,700 --> 00:23:32,900 And after I finished it, they didn't say anything, they just put their fists out in this sort of spot moment. 240 00:23:32,900 --> 00:23:37,810 And coo coo I'm going to do that in the open Mike. 241 00:23:37,810 --> 00:23:43,150 And then Yemen going off isn't a tangent, but it's one [INAUDIBLE] of a story. 242 00:23:43,150 --> 00:23:48,880 I don't think most people do the best performance that they also started. Well, let's talk about a poem. 243 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,780 Can we call me by my name. Obviously that have a play I think on the film. 244 00:23:52,780 --> 00:23:59,290 But what's interesting here is, I mean, I don't think there's anyone who has a name that is English. 245 00:23:59,290 --> 00:24:02,490 They can't relate to it. But, you know, is on the second day is long. 246 00:24:02,490 --> 00:24:05,140 But what's longer is your reluctancy to say my name correctly. 247 00:24:05,140 --> 00:24:09,790 And just this week, I was doing, of course, about three weeks ago whether it was a great cause. 248 00:24:09,790 --> 00:24:17,230 And I was with a producer. But the seven days and the whole time he avoided saying my name so that, you know, oh, you know, just wouldn't you say. 249 00:24:17,230 --> 00:24:22,360 I think what's so interesting, what you stay here, the final word in this thing is sinister. 250 00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:27,910 And there is something sinister about this reluctance to even call me by by my own name. 251 00:24:27,910 --> 00:24:31,570 It's such a strange. I think we all do. 252 00:24:31,570 --> 00:24:35,620 It's such a weird, universal thing, our name is perhaps the closest thing to our identity. 253 00:24:35,620 --> 00:24:43,240 And yet so many people who don't have the name John go through their life with people constantly avoiding saying their name and your name, 254 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:51,340 as you say in your poem. It's why don't you talk about the importance of your name and why it's almost ironic that people don't say your name. 255 00:24:51,340 --> 00:24:55,030 Yeah. Well, I just I don't know. It might be kind of selfish. 256 00:24:55,030 --> 00:25:00,580 I just love my name. I think it's helpful. You know, I have one other person with that name. 257 00:25:00,580 --> 00:25:08,800 And I think I went through a lot of uni and some of school and everything as, um, as, um. 258 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:16,310 And I don't know if you had this as well, but sometimes when someone sent me an email I can read, I can listen to how they've said my name. 259 00:25:16,310 --> 00:25:21,400 Yeah. And it's like, okay, cool. I know where I stand today. 260 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:28,150 But I just. Yeah. Tired of it. And that's why I'm saying this early poetry of mine is this reclamation. 261 00:25:28,150 --> 00:25:34,810 It's taking back those silences that I swallowed. You know, because that's the thing. 262 00:25:34,810 --> 00:25:41,750 White people can say Denarius Calgarian and Timothee. 263 00:25:41,750 --> 00:25:46,420 Yes. That's a go. My name is low letters man. Eh, that, eh. 264 00:25:46,420 --> 00:25:50,520 Yeah. You know, and I get it as an if that comes to you first. 265 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,890 If if I say yeomen's is on it. 266 00:25:53,890 --> 00:25:59,510 Oh cool. Thanks. I was, I was. There's something there's a chip missing in your head. 267 00:25:59,510 --> 00:26:05,320 Yeah. It's incredible. I, it's such a strange, it's such a strange reluctance. 268 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:10,930 And you're right. I mean it's something that so many people it's it's sort of like the phrase but microaggression that people experience so much. 269 00:26:10,930 --> 00:26:14,470 But what people have is it's just the name like it's just what we call I got a weird name. 270 00:26:14,470 --> 00:26:21,670 It felt weird like you. I'd much rather you said wrong ask and I'll tell you how to say I understand that it's not a name that you know or comical, 271 00:26:21,670 --> 00:26:26,410 but to not even try or to consistently get it Rohloff to be told is just part it. 272 00:26:26,410 --> 00:26:30,170 But yeah, you're right. Someone's got something missing. There is such a bizarre experience to have. 273 00:26:30,170 --> 00:26:37,470 One of your other early poems is folk, and I think this is probably the one I sort of laughed at the most relate to the most bizarre. 274 00:26:37,470 --> 00:26:44,530 Anybody who's been at a university, especially in England, relates I'm to go read the sort of I don't see colour within the space time. 275 00:26:44,530 --> 00:26:48,610 I don't see colour. Oh, that's nice, but oh wait. I spy with my big brown eyes. 276 00:26:48,610 --> 00:26:55,380 You carefully organise your outfit today and you go in in that same standard to say so what you mean is you avoid seeing race. 277 00:26:55,380 --> 00:26:56,590 And there's this interesting conversation. 278 00:26:56,590 --> 00:27:04,030 I'd love you to comment on this like this new like I'm so well I don't see colour, but it's it's such a strange phenomenon that seems to have this. 279 00:27:04,030 --> 00:27:09,010 This woke Lester. It it's just completely bizarre. I mean, it's no sense. 280 00:27:09,010 --> 00:27:12,490 Yeah. It's just yeah. 281 00:27:12,490 --> 00:27:18,040 It troubles, man. You know, the impetus for that poem. I was in front of it the other day. 282 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:27,970 I remember just once at uni I was walking somewhere and I was walking with an East Asian woman and. 283 00:27:27,970 --> 00:27:33,100 I think we were just chatting and then she's talking about race and then she responded with, 284 00:27:33,100 --> 00:27:37,660 oh, but you know, we're all just human, you know, we're all just human, aren't we? 285 00:27:37,660 --> 00:27:42,880 And I'm like, yeah, but but but where I'm from is rich man. 286 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:51,110 Would you mean white diluting at dusk? That's what it is. Why are you diluting the rich tapestry of of moments? 287 00:27:51,110 --> 00:27:55,300 And you know, all that stuff that comes from being from where we're from. 288 00:27:55,300 --> 00:27:59,980 And I think the, you know, stuff like I work in Kosovo, my name. 289 00:27:59,980 --> 00:28:04,900 It's the acknowledgement that I wanted to get across. I mean, I was at uni. 290 00:28:04,900 --> 00:28:08,530 I spent my first year sort of facilitating wage jobs. 291 00:28:08,530 --> 00:28:15,520 I haven't always been, you know, on it with this sort of weakness or the the articulate myself and my identity. 292 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:22,400 It's been a journey because I remember my first year sorry, my second year coming back from first year. 293 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,020 I make, like, weird brown jokes. I was any brown person my year for contact. 294 00:28:26,020 --> 00:28:27,460 Right. OK. Right. 295 00:28:27,460 --> 00:28:36,340 And I used to make jokes about terrorists or brown people to make the white people in the room feel like, oh, I'm not one and I'm not one of them. 296 00:28:36,340 --> 00:28:41,830 Right. And I say, yeah. And then this shift happened where I was coming back. 297 00:28:41,830 --> 00:28:48,100 First time I seen some roommates since summer and my best mate was standing in front 298 00:28:48,100 --> 00:28:53,500 of me walking up to the pub with you and I are Dare's my favourite terrorist. 299 00:28:53,500 --> 00:28:59,520 Jesus. Yeah. And I just sort of had this moment in time where I was like. 300 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:06,490 I I facilitated that. Yeah. And I don't ever want to do that again. 301 00:29:06,490 --> 00:29:14,290 So these first poems were just a way of addressing that and being like this is this is who this is. 302 00:29:14,290 --> 00:29:16,420 These are the things that I want you to know. 303 00:29:16,420 --> 00:29:22,690 You say in the same poem, know your history and know that it affects mine and that the two have been intertwined since before fifty ninety nine. 304 00:29:22,690 --> 00:29:27,780 It's such a such a trend. People don't realise the extent to which how long Britain was in our country. 305 00:29:27,780 --> 00:29:33,090 And it wasn't just sort of trading that was in there sitting, living, taking over. 306 00:29:33,090 --> 00:29:38,860 And it's it's so true. We've had these conversations about education and how little people know. 307 00:29:38,860 --> 00:29:45,670 And I think that comes part of that comes from this. I don't see what you have to do because as you say, no, your history know that it affects mine. 308 00:29:45,670 --> 00:29:50,260 You can't not see it because, you know, for 400 years, you certainly didn't not see it. 309 00:29:50,260 --> 00:29:52,350 And that affects the very way we live our lives. 310 00:29:52,350 --> 00:29:57,130 Like when you say at the end of the poem to sort of use your own words again to comment on the culture. 311 00:29:57,130 --> 00:30:02,230 President, my bones, body and face is something you could never erase. 312 00:30:02,230 --> 00:30:07,030 I mean, it's just thought, you know what I'm about right now and it might change. 313 00:30:07,030 --> 00:30:16,880 It's just. You know, too long and we've spoken about this a bit, where South Asians and Brown people are seen as meek and subservient. 314 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,370 No person to theatre shows what they are. 315 00:30:20,370 --> 00:30:25,180 Is the best friend who's just there on stage. 316 00:30:25,180 --> 00:30:32,940 He takes the box and like but what I want people to know is that we've been emperors, we've been poets. 317 00:30:32,940 --> 00:30:38,910 And we can definitely come to you go in the theatre. Sure we should. 318 00:30:38,910 --> 00:30:45,100 It is interesting where all these things and we need to sort of be given that depth and space. 319 00:30:45,100 --> 00:30:49,120 And you certainly can't be given that depth and space if everyone is supposedly colour-blind. 320 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,750 I mean, this all you do. Right. Going to sort of your more recent and lifespans. 321 00:30:53,750 --> 00:30:55,300 You've got these wonderful. Something I love. 322 00:30:55,300 --> 00:31:01,240 But I think any South Asian will love is your use of, you know, holiday behaves pounded onions and garlic and [INAUDIBLE]. 323 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:10,450 Beezus. Where are you really from. How did onions and garlic. So many of them sort of relate to and speak to such integral things in our food. 324 00:31:10,450 --> 00:31:13,810 I mean, any South Asian is obsessed with food. 325 00:31:13,810 --> 00:31:19,780 All grandmothers are obsessed with food. All we do is think about eating and then we draw on these wonderful things. 326 00:31:19,780 --> 00:31:26,550 But you also write, I wonder if I can find it. You write in an earlier poem, I remind you that chicken tikka masala was made for the white man states. 327 00:31:26,550 --> 00:31:34,850 And you've also got this strange. You use these images who point out that they even they're sort of compromised and in a strange way. 328 00:31:34,850 --> 00:31:40,950 Yeah, this new Senate is all about nuance like this. This stuff isn't black and white. 329 00:31:40,950 --> 00:31:46,730 This will be black and white. We were brown, right? You saw grey area. 330 00:31:46,730 --> 00:31:51,360 And the food thing is, that's our sort of legacy, I feel. 331 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:56,270 Yeah. To each other. You know, people pass on recipes and we only write stuff down. 332 00:31:56,270 --> 00:32:01,720 We do it by and we'll do it if we do it by. Undoes the yapping by feeling it all. 333 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,360 Dad. That's what my grandma said. What I'm getting to see what feels right. It's salt. 334 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:11,270 I don't know how salt fields, but apparently I should just sit there and you do. You end up landing somehow and landing is right. 335 00:32:11,270 --> 00:32:15,680 Beautiful thing. And I think in terms of my creative process and stuff, that's where I won. 336 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,120 That's what I'm interested in. And we've had that phase of. 337 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:23,930 And there are people still battling with it, with how I'm Asian, but I don't want to be Asian. 338 00:32:23,930 --> 00:32:30,860 I just want to be British. But it's a massive, massive part of our culture. 339 00:32:30,860 --> 00:32:39,070 Yeah. But what I'm interested in is acknowledging what's happened before, you know, and taking that with just like these recipes, 340 00:32:39,070 --> 00:32:45,930 like I didn't know until twenty nine, twenty seventeen that my granddad was a poet. 341 00:32:45,930 --> 00:32:52,050 And a legit one lie published in Pakistan and everything, and, um, you know, 342 00:32:52,050 --> 00:32:57,420 talking stuff like Raise Resow made me feel mogel mostly incredible where. 343 00:32:57,420 --> 00:33:01,590 You know, he acknowledges the generational trauma, like going back. 344 00:33:01,590 --> 00:33:07,540 Looking back at where you've been so that you can catapult yourself forward. 345 00:33:07,540 --> 00:33:13,940 Trust me, I'm so interested in you directly at, you know, talk about I mean, one of your poems is called. 346 00:33:13,940 --> 00:33:17,220 That he a.k.a. But a word that is used. 347 00:33:17,220 --> 00:33:22,440 I mean, you actually Pakistani I mean, this is your word that's used to describe everyone in the South Asian subcontinent. 348 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,460 I mean, there's one and a half billion of us. Whenever Labour is seven of the world's population. 349 00:33:26,460 --> 00:33:28,910 And yet we were referred to by this time. But then you said, 350 00:33:28,910 --> 00:33:37,370 but this is such a brilliant way because you point out what it is and what that actually means and the strength of what that actually means. 351 00:33:37,370 --> 00:33:43,880 Yeah, yeah, that was a nice one to get off my chest. I wanted to sort of test myself lyrically. 352 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:48,470 This is some of this work. We'll speak to two brown people. 353 00:33:48,470 --> 00:33:49,920 Way more than excuse to white people. 354 00:33:49,920 --> 00:34:00,920 It's like I want I want I want people like us and my brothers and cousins and whoever to feel like it was the coolest stuff, that uplifting. 355 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:08,350 And then I want other people to be aware of all the things that inconsequent. 356 00:34:08,350 --> 00:34:11,110 But you also I mean, you do that. And I've been very moved. 357 00:34:11,110 --> 00:34:14,980 I spent six, seven hours yesterday sitting there working and reading it and thinking about it. 358 00:34:14,980 --> 00:34:19,300 And it's extremely moving to have someone who speaks to that. 359 00:34:19,300 --> 00:34:25,840 You have little you have a phrase and maybe you can go reiki on which no one who isn't a job Himba would understand. 360 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,740 Maybe you can translate that for our for our for our listeners who don't speak any other language. 361 00:34:29,740 --> 00:34:36,380 But it's incredible to see these snippets of things that you hear is kids that you never hear in Western anything ever. 362 00:34:36,380 --> 00:34:40,510 What does it show? Yeah. Quick translation. I think my resume is good. 363 00:34:40,510 --> 00:34:44,460 Seven out of ten times. Good. Good. OK. 364 00:34:44,460 --> 00:34:50,000 Just this as a white person dies. What gave this the thing? 365 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:56,830 I think I spent, you know, a certain amount of time being weirded out and embarrassed. 366 00:34:56,830 --> 00:35:01,540 Some of the things that are maybe brown, you know, Bollywood films, I still find some cringe. 367 00:35:01,540 --> 00:35:09,010 They are extremely rich. Yeah. But, you know, stuff like the language and the and the colour, the colours that we have. 368 00:35:09,010 --> 00:35:16,390 You know, I'm sorry. So I wanted to meet some of them are shiny. I was embarrassed by that stuff when I was younger, like a young teenager. 369 00:35:16,390 --> 00:35:21,070 And it's just about reclamation. You talk about my grandmother was sorry every everyday I see it every day. 370 00:35:21,070 --> 00:35:26,620 We were runs to weddings. We're so surrounded by it. And I think there's spent my grandmother's and speak English. 371 00:35:26,620 --> 00:35:31,600 She lives with us in a house, a very traditional Indian setting. And we're surrounded by all the time. 372 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:36,640 There's always Indian television in my home. There's always some ridiculously dramatic Indian Hindi. 373 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,360 So there's always a sari on. There's always a wedding going. 374 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:48,220 I mean, we seem to be married every week of the year. Somebody. But it it's so omnipresent in our lives that there's such a disconnect from it. 375 00:35:48,220 --> 00:35:55,180 It's like it's separate sort of secret life. I am leading as a kid, a brown life that I had that was completely separate from my being British, 376 00:35:55,180 --> 00:36:00,040 British in school and certainly that sort of posh university that was very white. 377 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,790 Yeah. And, you know, I just felt I didn't have to be separate. 378 00:36:03,790 --> 00:36:07,090 You know, my the generation from partition. Right. 379 00:36:07,090 --> 00:36:12,200 So our grandparents generation. Yes, they are. So they survived. 380 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:19,830 So that our parents generation could live. And then you've got people like us who can dream. 381 00:36:19,830 --> 00:36:27,970 Great job holding it like my my dad when my dad's been telling me stories of Eve when he used to be a European Stonebridge. 382 00:36:27,970 --> 00:36:36,310 And when him and his cousins used to go onto the High Street with their sure welcome is on, it was like a real act of protest. 383 00:36:36,310 --> 00:36:41,230 They could, they could and they did get into fights because of it. 384 00:36:41,230 --> 00:36:46,320 But now we can do that and it's all fine. So why shouldn't we? This is it. 385 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:54,860 Yeah, it's incredible how quickly I mean, partition, 70 years ago, the biggest forced mass migration killed. 386 00:36:54,860 --> 00:36:58,670 This is all, well, people. Yeah, it's fantastic. Pretty. 387 00:36:58,670 --> 00:37:06,170 It's bizarre. It's a million people died more probably. It destroyed two countries and continues to really cause tension. 388 00:37:06,170 --> 00:37:12,020 And they say that no one thinks about it. You're right. Our grandparents neither neither in the country, I don't think. 389 00:37:12,020 --> 00:37:18,770 But on my side, I mean. But it completely transformed and continues to transform. 390 00:37:18,770 --> 00:37:24,770 And everything that happens between between our two countries. Partition is something we do not talk enough about. 391 00:37:24,770 --> 00:37:29,960 I mean, people barely know about it. Forget about talking about it. Yeah, but you right. 392 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:37,250 To sort of get to get to a more recent time where there's a there's an incredibles. 393 00:37:37,250 --> 00:37:39,530 I feel the constant need to impress your paille. 394 00:37:39,530 --> 00:37:48,030 Pressure's got me stressed and I'd rather not justify my existence just to pacify your insistent curiosity of colonial consequences. 395 00:37:48,030 --> 00:37:53,970 And I think I was right. I remember I sent you an email in full capsulises after after getting this. 396 00:37:53,970 --> 00:38:00,350 And I think that sort of is a great way to please talk that I read it awfully and your performance of it, please people cheque the performance of it. 397 00:38:00,350 --> 00:38:03,730 It's much better than the nonsense I just read. But I'm. 398 00:38:03,730 --> 00:38:11,230 And pacify and this pressure that we have, this curiosity now that it's almost been caused by the movement. 399 00:38:11,230 --> 00:38:15,700 Let me hear about everything it means to be brown. I mean, to sort of round up. 400 00:38:15,700 --> 00:38:20,050 What do you thinking forward now? We've got this incredible space. 401 00:38:20,050 --> 00:38:24,610 We've got media coming in, which we're so excited to work on. Why would you want a production company? 402 00:38:24,610 --> 00:38:28,610 You're doing your incredible work. We're reaching out. We're making moves. 403 00:38:28,610 --> 00:38:37,660 We're we're changing things. What do you think about this pressure, this need to impress, are we are we still sort of bearing the mantle of it? 404 00:38:37,660 --> 00:38:40,650 Is it changing? And what's your hope, even if it's not what's going to happen? 405 00:38:40,650 --> 00:38:47,130 What's your hope of what we see in the next few years as we are the young people that join the industry and hopefully shape it? 406 00:38:47,130 --> 00:38:51,960 Yeah. I hope that we all. 407 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:58,690 Make the work we want to make on our terms. You know what I mean by that is. 408 00:38:58,690 --> 00:39:05,110 Yeah. Like in Desdemona, you know, that whole poems about essentially a pillow talk with her, 409 00:39:05,110 --> 00:39:08,620 with a white woman who just wanted to know all about Islam and stuff. 410 00:39:08,620 --> 00:39:13,750 And I'm like and I've we've spoken today about, you know, how much I want to make people aware and stuff. 411 00:39:13,750 --> 00:39:19,000 But it's like on my terms, the way I speak about it when I want to speak about it. 412 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,450 I'm not here to just sort of give you your brown story. 413 00:39:22,450 --> 00:39:29,290 You know, the greats are sometimes the most personal touch, but it comes from a personal place on their terms. 414 00:39:29,290 --> 00:39:36,810 So you look at McKayla Cole and you look at Rami Yousef, who has this series, Rami, who won a Golden Globe. 415 00:39:36,810 --> 00:39:40,840 Those things are deeply personal, but it's constructed from their terms. 416 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,710 And that, I think, is what I want to see. 417 00:39:44,710 --> 00:39:48,870 And I hope people continue to make work like that. Thank you so much. 418 00:39:48,870 --> 00:39:53,740 But to do that, you've spoken really honestly. And I think that's that's it's not so easy to do. 419 00:39:53,740 --> 00:39:58,180 I don't think people listening to this maybe necessarily realise that it's not so easy to speak so honestly 420 00:39:58,180 --> 00:40:03,880 about these topics and talk about your own complicated identity in such a such a transparent way. 421 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:08,200 So we're really grateful for you being so honest with us, sharing so much of your work with us. 422 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:12,940 Everyone listening. Please cheque out on all of the stations and everything will be link to the podcast. 423 00:40:12,940 --> 00:40:17,740 Some of his work to ensure will be linked. Obviously, you're going to be able to see his work. 424 00:40:17,740 --> 00:40:23,060 Cheque out his bio page on our Web site. You'll be able to see his work, the media coming soon. 425 00:40:23,060 --> 00:40:29,360 And yes, yes, this won't be the last. We have resigned. We'll do another podcast with them, I'm sure, about media work. 426 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:34,670 But, yeah, keep your eyes on him because I think you're gonna go great places and we're really grateful that you working with us. 427 00:40:34,670 --> 00:40:38,800 So, so good to have you on board. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. 428 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:46,930 And facilitate this and let me get to work on this Monday thing is really exciting and I cannot wait for people to hear it. 429 00:40:46,930 --> 00:40:50,410 Absolutely. Thanks so much for joining us. Everyone listening. Thanks so much for listening. 430 00:40:50,410 --> 00:40:57,025 And there will be another episode out soon with another one of us backing that artist.