1 00:00:15,260 --> 00:00:20,940 Good evening and welcome to this evening's big tent. Live events, discussion. 2 00:00:20,940 --> 00:00:26,370 My name is Wes Williams and I'm the director of Torch, the Oxford Research Centre for the Humanities, 3 00:00:26,370 --> 00:00:30,420 jointly presenting this evening's event with St Peter's College. 4 00:00:30,420 --> 00:00:38,850 Big Tent Live Events is Torture's live online event series and forms a key part of the humanities cultural programme itself. 5 00:00:38,850 --> 00:00:43,530 One of the founding stones for the future, Stephen A. Schwartzmann Centre for the Humanities. 6 00:00:43,530 --> 00:00:51,810 That's coming soon. Here in Oxford, as regular viewers will know, the HDP has curated a series of cultural debates, 7 00:00:51,810 --> 00:00:56,400 discussions and performances online since the very first lockdown. 8 00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:02,940 We hope that you are all keeping a safe and well as you can be during these difficult times. 9 00:01:02,940 --> 00:01:09,360 This evening session is, as I say, jointly presented by the HDP and St Peter's College, Oxford. 10 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:15,180 And so I'm pleased to welcome first to our screen the master of St. Peter's, Professor Judith. 11 00:01:15,180 --> 00:01:24,010 You can. In her academic life, Professor Buchanan is also an early modernist. 12 00:01:24,010 --> 00:01:31,900 As am I, in fact, although I'm in French. Judith is more in English, specifically a Shakespearean and a scholar of silent film. 13 00:01:31,900 --> 00:01:41,230 She works frequently and productively with a range of creative partners across arts and heritage sectors, both nationally and internationally. 14 00:01:41,230 --> 00:01:45,970 Judith will be the interlocutor with our guest speaker in this evening's discussion. 15 00:01:45,970 --> 00:01:57,530 Welcome, Judith, and welcome to to our guest speaker this evening, Ken Loach. 16 00:01:57,530 --> 00:02:02,360 Ken, who I hope is there we are Ken is not only a Saint Peter's College alumnus. 17 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:10,400 He studied law here a good few years ago, but also a multi award winning film maker, writer and director for television. 18 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:16,790 His films testify to a deep concern for social justice. His pioneering work extends all the way from cars. 19 00:02:16,790 --> 00:02:24,080 And Cathy, come home. Come home in the late 60s through to Sorry We Missed You released just over a year ago. 20 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:31,210 A trenchant critique of the so-called gig economy and its effect on the precarious lives of people across Britain. 21 00:02:31,210 --> 00:02:35,440 Tonight, Ken will be discussing his approach to film making with Judith. 22 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:46,110 And together they will focus on two of the films, in particular, The Wind That Shakes the Barley from 2006 and I, Daniel Blake 2016. 23 00:02:46,110 --> 00:02:50,370 I will now disappear from the screen. Sit back, watch and listen. 24 00:02:50,370 --> 00:02:57,780 Before joining you again for questions towards the end of the hour, please do post any questions you might have in the chat on YouTube. 25 00:02:57,780 --> 00:03:04,040 As the discussion progresses. But then without further a day delay, over to you. 26 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:09,020 Judith. And he was before we kick off. 27 00:03:09,020 --> 00:03:12,880 Perhaps I can start with a word from some is college. 28 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:17,220 It's it's the college of which I'm deeply proud to be mastering subjects. 29 00:03:17,220 --> 00:03:26,760 That's your old college as well. Can we say it as advertised to be a conversation about two or three of Ken Loach's films? 30 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:32,820 It was a fairly modest but a detailed conversation that we had envisaged, a conversation that might. 31 00:03:32,820 --> 00:03:41,430 Well, we thought appeal to those with an interest in filmmaking and can lecture significant and distinctive filmmaking in particular. 32 00:03:41,430 --> 00:03:48,450 It was intended as a follow up conversation to several others that has had with lots of students and some future students over the years, 33 00:03:48,450 --> 00:03:52,320 all of which have been extremely well-received by students. 34 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:57,900 So in issuing the invitation, therefore, we had not foreseen controversy. 35 00:03:57,900 --> 00:04:02,010 We have got it. And I understand why that's part of this. 36 00:04:02,010 --> 00:04:08,250 There have been many calls, both from within and from without for this event to be cancelled. 37 00:04:08,250 --> 00:04:13,200 Neither St. Peter's College nor Torch nor the university believes that no 38 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:18,780 platforming is the way to pursue the goals of a free and open academic community. 39 00:04:18,780 --> 00:04:25,520 We oppose the delimitation of intellectual or cultural engagement within the law. 40 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:29,670 The university's role in this respect could be a discussion for another day. 41 00:04:29,670 --> 00:04:32,940 But it is not the advertised discussion of today. 42 00:04:32,940 --> 00:04:39,890 And we are committed absolutely to allowing for questions, but having the discussion that has been advertised first. 43 00:04:39,890 --> 00:04:45,990 And I would say, by way of a quick aside, in ways that will, I fear, be mysterious to some but intelligible to others, 44 00:04:45,990 --> 00:04:51,750 that we have begun an important conversation within some pages across this last weekend, 45 00:04:51,750 --> 00:05:01,200 and we are committed to take a many of those important questions forward and for learning lots from them institutionally as we do so, 46 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:05,430 as always in my engagements with students. I know I will. 47 00:05:05,430 --> 00:05:12,200 So as we launch into the discussion, we have advertised, we have been advertised as having let me and now my own would. 48 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:18,790 Welcome to those of you watching on YouTube and can thank you for being with us. 49 00:05:18,790 --> 00:05:27,560 We are going to start by talking about the wind that shakes the Barley, a film that was released in two thousand and six. 50 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:36,520 I'm sure that many people will have seen it, but not everybody will have done. Can you just give us a sort of outline idea of of the film's story? 51 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:45,830 Yes, Judith, sometimes it's. It's always a huge pleasure to debate some pieces, even though it's a virtual presence today. 52 00:05:45,830 --> 00:05:52,520 And thank you for your invitation and thank you for your strength and determination that this should. 53 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:57,820 Friendly chat should continue doing the shakes, the barley, we made it. 54 00:05:57,820 --> 00:06:02,210 Twenty five, I think. Twenty six. And it's a film that's for Levity. 55 00:06:02,210 --> 00:06:05,090 The writer and I wanted to make for some time. 56 00:06:05,090 --> 00:06:15,440 It's it's about the story of the war of independence that Ireland fought in 2019, 2020 and then the subsequent civil war. 57 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:21,530 The war of independence is to us was the end of a long colonial struggle. 58 00:06:21,530 --> 00:06:29,070 And that interpretation of history caused some some discussion in the opening scene. 59 00:06:29,070 --> 00:06:40,400 You began to see is the raids by British forces to an Irish family, an Irish farm homestead. 60 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:50,660 And there's a there's the lads in the neighbourhood have been playing Hurley and they've been engaged in the game now, 61 00:06:50,660 --> 00:06:55,820 was against British rules who weren't allowed to meet more than two or three people together. 62 00:06:55,820 --> 00:07:02,570 So this broke the rules. So they went back to the to the farmhouse. 63 00:07:02,570 --> 00:07:06,050 They were just saying goodbye to each other and the towns. 64 00:07:06,050 --> 00:07:11,410 The Black and Tans arrived. The British forces arrived. And we'll see what they do. 65 00:07:11,410 --> 00:07:19,190 And this is set in 1920. Yes. And perhaps you could play the clip for us now. 66 00:07:19,190 --> 00:07:26,870 Amara, so we can get a fingerprint that the frame rate might be a bit jumpy, Damien. 67 00:07:26,870 --> 00:07:31,300 When you ask, we can. I wish all the best. 68 00:07:31,300 --> 00:07:37,450 Thanks. Thanks very much. Mine just now. Grace, I believe you. 69 00:07:37,450 --> 00:07:57,270 I know. Ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow. 70 00:07:57,270 --> 00:08:03,590 Not got it right. I am tired of you [INAUDIBLE]. 71 00:08:03,590 --> 00:08:09,590 You Mick [INAUDIBLE] been told by defence of the realm not to understand. 72 00:08:09,590 --> 00:08:16,920 Oh public meetings are done and that includes yet cock little. 73 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:39,070 Gulistan Chenega. I want names, addresses, I want occupation name on OSullivan found out, Conor Sullivan, Lynn Geary, Ironmonger. 74 00:08:39,070 --> 00:08:46,070 Chris really got Chris right. Don't look at me, boy. 75 00:08:46,070 --> 00:08:52,580 Is there a crossroads left family? 76 00:08:52,580 --> 00:08:58,460 Well, look, I perec, don't you? 77 00:08:58,460 --> 00:09:04,400 I'm Hala. Sort of on watch that shot. 78 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:08,450 He doesn't want because he wants your name in English. I'll tell it. 79 00:09:08,450 --> 00:09:12,350 Shut the [INAUDIBLE] up. Kelly, it's Craig. 80 00:09:12,350 --> 00:09:17,220 Mannam me sort of on force. They call me boy. 81 00:09:17,220 --> 00:09:24,880 You see me laughing. I love it. They say that a lot of you strip off. 82 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:38,720 No, shut up. I said, oh, my God. 83 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:43,250 Oh, my God. Oh, my God. 84 00:09:43,250 --> 00:09:47,850 Got three right now. Good job up there. 85 00:09:47,850 --> 00:09:52,710 Yeah, but you're. But then I got to drop out. Come on. Sergeant Gabriel Mountains. 86 00:09:52,710 --> 00:10:13,000 Take your show. You take your clothes off. I say I mean, looking straight out there. 87 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:21,630 All right. Go get somebody for nothing. 88 00:10:21,630 --> 00:10:35,020 Shut up. As soon as. Just shut. 89 00:10:35,020 --> 00:10:55,500 17 years of age. Michael. Got your leg handy. 90 00:10:55,500 --> 00:11:42,930 Such labs dybbuk it ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow, ow. 91 00:11:42,930 --> 00:11:53,490 Why, he's the doing who glenn it and shook the Golden Valley. 92 00:11:53,490 --> 00:12:01,560 It was hard to feel for words to frame to break the tie. 93 00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:21,040 He found no. Fought harder still to bear the shame of foreign chains around. 94 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:31,950 Ken will be back with us in a moment. It's a traumatic case, it's it's brutal, it's edgy, it's energetic, unnerving, 95 00:12:31,950 --> 00:12:36,160 and the rhythms matter and the rhythms for you often matter within a scene. 96 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:42,010 And they also, no matter a cross a scene. But there's also something about the ensemble. 97 00:12:42,010 --> 00:12:46,060 Feel that she's quite remarkable. Miss Killian Murphy in the middle of it. 98 00:12:46,060 --> 00:12:51,460 How do you meet allow your actors to find. 99 00:12:51,460 --> 00:13:01,420 That's space together without the fact of the camera somehow inhibiting that kind of level of sense of urgency. 100 00:13:01,420 --> 00:13:08,260 And being in the moment? Well, it's in the preparations, in the casting. 101 00:13:08,260 --> 00:13:12,930 The soldier, for example, were ex soldier from Britain, Tom Charnock. 102 00:13:12,930 --> 00:13:19,630 They captured this sergeant, sadly, died just recently, but they're all like soldiers. 103 00:13:19,630 --> 00:13:25,780 They came and they stayed separately. They didn't meet the Irish lads until the scene. 104 00:13:25,780 --> 00:13:31,870 They came in some of the some of the lads knew the script, Damian. 105 00:13:31,870 --> 00:13:36,850 And the ones who had who were expected to speak knew the script. 106 00:13:36,850 --> 00:13:42,460 Some of them were prepared. So they then the administration will look. 107 00:13:42,460 --> 00:13:47,670 Did just just obey obey orders. Whatever happened, just just fitted. 108 00:13:47,670 --> 00:13:53,400 So we do one that you take. So that builds up for the Irish. 109 00:13:53,400 --> 00:14:05,610 Young men and the family wanted the village, they had to feel like they were people living on the land, they were part of that landscape. 110 00:14:05,610 --> 00:14:14,760 They were they they weren't visitors. So when the two of them were actors, they're all from County Cork. 111 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,580 So they all have the same dialect, the same accent. 112 00:14:17,580 --> 00:14:27,110 These words in the same way, language in the same way they did when they were cast as some somewhere just ordinary lads, 113 00:14:27,110 --> 00:14:31,680 apprentice's or farmworker's, when they tell the best characters. 114 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:35,600 We just had to work the land and keep Kate. 115 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:40,920 Then Kelly, a very experienced actor. The ironmonger was lovely, man. 116 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,450 An actor. So four or five of them were actors. 117 00:14:44,450 --> 00:14:51,660 The the day the mother, the older woman is an ordinary woman, but an amazing presence, a wonderful woman. 118 00:14:51,660 --> 00:14:57,960 And the the the younger woman is a well, very young woman is an actress. 119 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:02,820 And the middle aged woman is was a teacher. 120 00:15:02,820 --> 00:15:08,820 But finally, with a careful, very careful selection, meeting, chatting, trying things out. 121 00:15:08,820 --> 00:15:16,020 And then the prep was probably 10 days or so work together, learning to play a flying column, 122 00:15:16,020 --> 00:15:21,600 which is how the army fought the war with them in a guerrilla tactics in the countryside. 123 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:26,160 And they they learnt how to be guerrilla fighters. And they got to know each other. 124 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:33,690 So a lot of a lot of jokes appeared. You know, the the the the banter, the crack. 125 00:15:33,690 --> 00:15:39,400 So that was developing. But they didn't know who was going to get killed. Said that shock. 126 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:47,440 So I think the key to summer is the key is to let something real as real as you can happen in front of the camera 127 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:55,330 so that there is an air of surprise and energy and what's going to happen and shock because you once you know, 128 00:15:55,330 --> 00:16:04,430 if you'd rehearsed that, you've killed the shock. And it depends on shock and it depends on outrage and the sense that this is just more right. 129 00:16:04,430 --> 00:16:07,350 And of course, they killed it. They kill. 130 00:16:07,350 --> 00:16:14,230 And when we were preparing the film, there were so many stories in the folklore of people around who knew about this. 131 00:16:14,230 --> 00:16:20,560 And we will be taking the field. That's where that's where the bridge killed sounds. And that's why they chose so-and-so and he got away. 132 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:28,210 And evoking that that folkloric memory was one of the most exciting things that the film 133 00:16:28,210 --> 00:16:35,500 and the sense of the sense of justice and what they were doing as well was so important. 134 00:16:35,500 --> 00:16:45,300 And so, yes. And it's the event that turns Damien Killian's killing character into the of the find called. 135 00:16:45,300 --> 00:16:49,320 But it's, as they say, is gonna say it's in the soil for film making. 136 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:53,160 It's in the preparation, the film, the the the sequences shoot. 137 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:59,170 We're very quick to Israel's you know, we done it, but it it's it's in the present. 138 00:16:59,170 --> 00:17:07,150 It's in the preparation, in the expectation process with the actors is very particular in that because you are not giving Unkles, 139 00:17:07,150 --> 00:17:12,640 you're not telling them necessarily what's going to happen in the scene when the cameras are rolling. 140 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:18,370 So in order to be able to catch something that feels unlearnt, unscripted, unprepared, 141 00:17:18,370 --> 00:17:21,860 it hasn't been over institutionalised ahead of time or tried out this way. 142 00:17:21,860 --> 00:17:31,720 That way you are actually looking for something that is raw and real and unschooled and that repeatedly we see you getting that. 143 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:37,030 But it's not it's a process that is it requires a certain kind of back to trust, doesn't it? 144 00:17:37,030 --> 00:17:37,840 That's, you know, 145 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:47,440 in order for them to feel comfortable being put into a situation with cameras rolling without quite knowing what might ensue within the scene. 146 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:52,990 Yes. No, not every scene is like that, of course. I mean, there's some scenes, a quite long dialogue scenes. 147 00:17:52,990 --> 00:18:00,010 And then then obviously people know that they have that, too. If you have a long and before that, they need it so that they're comfortable with that. 148 00:18:00,010 --> 00:18:05,170 But we still try and break it up a bit or say something in a bit different to the dialogue. 149 00:18:05,170 --> 00:18:12,460 But it's an also the the colour of rehearsing we do is is is a mixture of. 150 00:18:12,460 --> 00:18:18,610 Well, it's mainly improvisation. They're rehearsing so that they're very comfortable with doing it and having things 151 00:18:18,610 --> 00:18:24,250 thrown at them so that it's it's a if you've begun that on day one of the shooting, 152 00:18:24,250 --> 00:18:28,680 it wouldn't work. There's got to be that facility there. 153 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:34,510 And for the soldiers, you know, they the sergeant had the outline, but the others we said, look, 154 00:18:34,510 --> 00:18:40,180 you've been in the Army, you've been in these situations, some of them men served in the north of Ireland. 155 00:18:40,180 --> 00:18:46,150 So it was again, it was like their own history. And that was the reference. 156 00:18:46,150 --> 00:18:49,630 I was used, you know, said what did you. Did you ever do anything like this? 157 00:18:49,630 --> 00:18:58,960 How did it work? Can we talked about that in advance and in a moment needed to be able to make good on the role that you have set up as possible. 158 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:06,160 You don't say action and you didn't say cut. You're not wanting that moment to somehow separate from something else. 159 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:10,090 Tell us about. Yes. No, that the killer words really. 160 00:19:10,090 --> 00:19:14,560 I mean, the moments that never Ondina jobs. And it's it's not erm. 161 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:16,210 It's not creative. No. 162 00:19:16,210 --> 00:19:24,160 You talk about you get people prepared, you give them a little clue, just a little word or maybe you don't need say anything often. 163 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:32,440 Silence is the best form of direction. And I'd just say, I'll just say, okay, off we go, I'll turn over to the camera, 164 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:37,870 just signal to them quietly in the sound and then say, okay, Tom, in this case, the sergeant. 165 00:19:37,870 --> 00:19:41,220 And then he's got the initiative to start the same. 166 00:19:41,220 --> 00:19:52,110 Names are so important on we've seen a 17 year old in this scene be killed for refusing to say his name in English. 167 00:19:52,110 --> 00:19:58,470 And so you've got the men with their arms in the air being shouted at to say their names. 168 00:19:58,470 --> 00:20:09,120 And then later that that kind of band of brothers and community get caught on different sides and they end up in firefights against each other. 169 00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:13,320 And even within the firefight, because they have some shared history together, 170 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:19,300 they are calling each other's names in order to appeal to them to stop shooting or whatever. 171 00:20:19,300 --> 00:20:23,670 The kind of intimacy of the use of name express is quite hard on this film. 172 00:20:23,670 --> 00:20:31,560 I, I think. Yes. Yes. I hadn't thought of it like that, but not I think you're right. 173 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:35,820 I think that comes instinctively from phone, from the people playing it. 174 00:20:35,820 --> 00:20:41,950 I mean, it's important that the full script is very, very precise and and did the trick, 175 00:20:41,950 --> 00:20:50,700 if it's a trick or the the problem really is to marry what is a very precise script and suddenly pull works with on very, very closely. 176 00:20:50,700 --> 00:21:00,910 And we I mean, we we work together from the on the project. But Paul does the writing and 95 percent of what is seen, this is Paul's words. 177 00:21:00,910 --> 00:21:09,960 And the the the issue for the director is to bring those words to life and allow the allow the whole presence to brief. 178 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:16,680 And for the people in the film to feel that they have done it, it's theirs, they own it and they can do what they like. 179 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:24,720 But actually, it's like I can say, it's like digging a trench for a street for water to run down the hill. 180 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,620 The water doesn't know it's been guided, but it is. 181 00:21:27,620 --> 00:21:35,310 And and if it works, it's like that that it's you you set the scene up in such a way that that will happen. 182 00:21:35,310 --> 00:21:38,220 Paul's words will just emerge. 183 00:21:38,220 --> 00:21:45,330 And obviously, in the same you've just seen, I mean, that the soldiers are throwing stuff in to respond, but that's fine. 184 00:21:45,330 --> 00:21:50,680 But in most of it and even then, the sergeant's words are mainly Paul's words. 185 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:57,270 And and Michael O'Sullivan, they call Damian Kelly Murphy and the others. 186 00:21:57,270 --> 00:22:07,200 They're Paul's words. Even in the midst of that they have. I they I mean that the presence of an army of occupation there has many, 187 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:12,440 has many in a way that every voice different, but every war has has things in common. 188 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:20,210 And the presence of a a brutal army of occupation is evokes many, many comparisons. 189 00:22:20,210 --> 00:22:28,320 So you took my Paul Laverty, the writer. We're not quite ready to move on to the next film yet, but in a moment, we'll be doing. 190 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:32,260 We're going to move on to Daniel Blake 2061. We do. Which also. 191 00:22:32,260 --> 00:22:36,320 Right. And actually put his regular collaborator with you. 192 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:43,190 And George Fenton is a regular collaborated with you, the companies. And you actually have a kind of cool team that you quite often work with. 193 00:22:43,190 --> 00:22:51,440 How does that then enrich or speed up the process of how you speak with each other about the the evolving 194 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,940 and collaborative process of filmmaking that actually you have a kind of intimacy of understanding, 195 00:22:55,940 --> 00:23:00,080 a process with. It goes back at the heart of filmmaking again, 196 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:09,740 because the the the cop the paradox of filmmaking is that it is the result of a contribution that many skilled people camera, 197 00:23:09,740 --> 00:23:18,860 sound design, continuity, editing, music, many and others, many skilled crafts. 198 00:23:18,860 --> 00:23:24,020 But yet yet it must. I think it has to have one voice. 199 00:23:24,020 --> 00:23:26,930 And that's in a way where the whole French idea of the auteur. 200 00:23:26,930 --> 00:23:34,190 Right, which I don't subscribe to that I say where it comes from, because most commercial films are pretty old, 201 00:23:34,190 --> 00:23:39,440 commercial films are very highly skilled people just doing their thing. 202 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:49,690 But there's not the sense of of that unique a single vision. So to find a team where everyone of their own volition. 203 00:23:49,690 --> 00:23:57,670 Enjoys that particular aesthetic, that kind of framing, that use of light, that sense of natural sound, 204 00:23:57,670 --> 00:24:04,620 the sense of rhythm in the editing, that that is like your I not like your being twisted to look at this. 205 00:24:04,620 --> 00:24:13,140 Look at that. But a kind of unfolding of something, as if you were an observer, a kind of performance in which. 206 00:24:13,140 --> 00:24:18,160 It doesn't have to be. It didn't have to be overstated, things didn't have to be underlined. 207 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,450 Music that doesn't underline the melodrama. 208 00:24:21,450 --> 00:24:29,520 But just as a supplementary on somebody saying, putting another perspective, all those things did the design. 209 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:36,090 The design is the one cross disappears completely. If it's good, it's not design just there. 210 00:24:36,090 --> 00:24:40,440 And yet it's immensely subtle. The choice of colours, the choice of background. 211 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:45,160 So it it's it's it enhances the people in front of it. 212 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:53,780 You shouldn't notice it, but it's. It should work. So finding that that commonality of a group of people. 213 00:24:53,780 --> 00:24:57,550 Where we learn from each other is actually central. 214 00:24:57,550 --> 00:25:03,170 Because then you have one vision and that's what's really exciting in the process. 215 00:25:03,170 --> 00:25:06,950 Something about kind of reminds me of your cinematography as well. 216 00:25:06,950 --> 00:25:11,360 And there's something kind of very self-effacing about it that is. 217 00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:19,130 It is. It's doing all sorts of interesting things. But it is quite keen not to draw attention to itself in order to the story, 218 00:25:19,130 --> 00:25:26,630 tell its own path without a sense of the process of its creation getting in the way of that. 219 00:25:26,630 --> 00:25:32,960 How do you spread that careful balance between actually it being what you mean, 220 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:39,970 carefully composed and yet not over drawing attention to itself as the mechanism of the telling approach? 221 00:25:39,970 --> 00:25:47,420 It is still there. Several things. First of all, the guiding principle is that the camera is an observer. 222 00:25:47,420 --> 00:25:52,750 The camera's a loving person in the corner of the room, the call of the field from a distance, 223 00:25:52,750 --> 00:25:57,290 whether it is whether it's appropriate, it's another person. 224 00:25:57,290 --> 00:26:04,930 And so they the choice of position. Depends on a number of things, depends on where's the light. 225 00:26:04,930 --> 00:26:10,870 That's the first question. So you don't want to shoot with the light behind you because that flattens people's faces. 226 00:26:10,870 --> 00:26:17,120 And it also is not a sympathetic and you want to the audience to engage with the character. 227 00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:21,820 So you have to light them in a way that is draws you towards them. 228 00:26:21,820 --> 00:26:29,550 It's a it's about recognising common humanity is the idea beneath the dignity of solidarity with the characters in a way. 229 00:26:29,550 --> 00:26:35,500 So it's a cover position. It's the the light said that they lit it naturally. 230 00:26:35,500 --> 00:26:41,920 But the camera position finds that right angle with a natural light is coming one way 231 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:48,160 and you find the position in relation to the people that lights them in that humane, 232 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:56,770 empathetic way. Then it's the lens is very important. The lenses we spot reflect the range of the human eye. 233 00:26:56,770 --> 00:27:01,980 So. I leave the position. They have something else to say. 234 00:27:01,980 --> 00:27:06,630 Is that the I mean, sometimes you see films with the cameras on the floor. 235 00:27:06,630 --> 00:27:13,020 Well, might come on the floor. There was going to be lying on the floor looking at this one look from the book or from the ceiling. 236 00:27:13,020 --> 00:27:20,070 Why the come on the ceiling? Who's on the ceiling looking down? You know, there's an internal logic to it. 237 00:27:20,070 --> 00:27:28,120 That people are, I hope and aware of. But there is a sense of humanity in the way we're looking at is. 238 00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:31,540 And then the lenses correspond to the range of the human eye. 239 00:27:31,540 --> 00:27:37,960 So that's it. So if you're in a room and I mean you can see a certain width. 240 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:45,700 So that's your the widest you'll use. And you if you look hard, you can you can actually see can take on someone's face or what. 241 00:27:45,700 --> 00:27:53,350 And that's the that's the, the lens we use. But you're never that close to people that you in this space. 242 00:27:53,350 --> 00:28:01,550 Because that just seems disrespectful. And. And again, not something you would do is to do with those things. 243 00:28:01,550 --> 00:28:05,810 So you're actually keen not to dehumanise the perspective. 244 00:28:05,810 --> 00:28:11,010 The point of view shot is feasibly a human one. Yes, yes. 245 00:28:11,010 --> 00:28:16,410 And absolutely. And it's reflected in the editing where you cut when you. 246 00:28:16,410 --> 00:28:20,690 I would move and you don't know who's gonna say you're in a room, you're done. 247 00:28:20,690 --> 00:28:28,510 Who's going to speak next week? We'll have a sound cue something or look or something that prompts you to look at that person. 248 00:28:28,510 --> 00:28:35,160 So the scene, which again, is like the human eye thing we've just seen as the fast and frenetic edit, 249 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:41,940 and yet we're not really thinking about that as a I mean, obviously, the more immediate business, I mean, the more obvious its construction is. 250 00:28:41,940 --> 00:28:47,070 And yet what is so taken up by the urgency and the drama of the action as well 251 00:28:47,070 --> 00:28:52,500 should be in such films that that one is not really clocking the editing, 252 00:28:52,500 --> 00:29:01,710 but in relation to that, the fanaticism and the and the the awful, awful energy of that scene. 253 00:29:01,710 --> 00:29:07,530 And I think there are a lot of ensemble scenes which have a kind of urgency on them in terms of action, 254 00:29:07,530 --> 00:29:10,440 but also in terms of what the editing feeling like. 255 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:20,670 But there are also some really key to hander scenes, a one on one scene where it's a quiet and an important conversation between two two peoples. 256 00:29:20,670 --> 00:29:27,360 I'm thinking of the Damian Sheehan aid quiet moment when they were on a short walk and he said, 257 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,390 I can't feel anything anymore or something of that sort. 258 00:29:30,390 --> 00:29:39,420 Is this the sense of kind of nerve endings being deadened by the struggle that he as an individual finds himself reluctantly, 259 00:29:39,420 --> 00:29:47,850 but with conviction caught up in all the intensity of the intimacy of the two brothers outside the church? 260 00:29:47,850 --> 00:29:53,370 When did I know I can't do that? You or the very final moment. 261 00:29:53,370 --> 00:29:57,170 Those two brothers encounter just before spoiler alert. 262 00:29:57,170 --> 00:30:06,900 Adamian is killed in which there is so much history and sense of what might have been the romance that the future, 263 00:30:06,900 --> 00:30:09,390 the children, the grandchildren that might have happened for one, 264 00:30:09,390 --> 00:30:17,880 that the professional aspirations of being a doctor will be sacrificed and the kind of the loss of the of the individual aspiration has gone. 265 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:28,390 But how you shoot those scenes is extraordinarily poignant and very different from how you shoot those those those energetic ensemble's scenes. 266 00:30:28,390 --> 00:30:33,880 And it plays to what you're just saying about trying to humanise, trying not to get in the way. 267 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,370 Yes. Yes. I mean, the writing is beautiful in there. 268 00:30:37,370 --> 00:30:45,230 I mean, he's a wonderful writer, Paul. He's been my great good fortune to to work with them for nearly 30 years now. 269 00:30:45,230 --> 00:30:50,720 Well, I balkanise really here because of Daredevil Act and them. 270 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:55,680 But I mean, we shoot very simply when we shoot really quickly. 271 00:30:55,680 --> 00:31:01,490 I mean, the whole film I think was six and a half weeks, which in filters is pretty quick. 272 00:31:01,490 --> 00:31:09,750 But. And you say that the key thing is, is what's happening between the people. 273 00:31:09,750 --> 00:31:15,600 So then you we don't do it over and over again. You know, I never tell people how to say things. 274 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,020 It's it's how it's them in that scene. 275 00:31:19,020 --> 00:31:30,350 It isn't them playing someone else. It's them. And of course, they when when the older brother says to Damian. 276 00:31:30,350 --> 00:31:36,440 You'll be executed at dawn, it's the first time Damien hears it. It's the first time Killian heard it's. 277 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:42,530 First, he says, I didn't give him that, Betha saying. Because he thought he come. 278 00:31:42,530 --> 00:31:50,660 The intention was, you just come to ask him to talk to you, to ask him to tell people to lay down their arms. 279 00:31:50,660 --> 00:31:57,250 He said the civil war. I went there to brother service in the civil war. One, if I feel the trade decides what I'm fighting for. 280 00:31:57,250 --> 00:32:02,230 On the on the Republicans, what they call the Republican side. 281 00:32:02,230 --> 00:32:11,000 And the protracted side, one under the word brothers did tear families apart. 282 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:17,300 But finally finding that that that moment. But it meant also it meant for the older brother. 283 00:32:17,300 --> 00:32:21,260 He had to carry that. I said to you, he doesn't know what you're going to say. 284 00:32:21,260 --> 00:32:31,700 So he had to carry that burden with it. Playing the scene, knowing that he got the sense that in a way is part of the part of the wait. 285 00:32:31,700 --> 00:32:36,310 I didn't have to say anything you about that, because that's that's the way it is. 286 00:32:36,310 --> 00:32:41,790 Yeah. People must have said this too before. And I don't want it to be an end diversion and let it be. 287 00:32:41,790 --> 00:32:46,250 But as you will be aware, in Elizabethan theatre, 288 00:32:46,250 --> 00:32:54,650 actors were given their roles and that there was Shakespeare and his contemporaries at the playing company, 289 00:32:54,650 --> 00:32:59,240 which was very expensive thing to be given a role because the goal of using a piece of paper effectively. 290 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:04,070 So he certainly wouldn't write out the entire play for any one actor. 291 00:33:04,070 --> 00:33:11,900 So they got what they were going to say and then a few cue words that they needed to be ready to hear and respond to so that that that process 292 00:33:11,900 --> 00:33:20,510 of being surprised by the action of the of the players one goes into a first short rehearsal is is recognisable across Elizabethan theatre. 293 00:33:20,510 --> 00:33:28,240 But let us not go that. Interesting, though, there would be places a lot in was film and that there's the farmhouse that we start 294 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:33,720 at that we've just see where they the the raid happens or the brutality happens. 295 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:37,580 And and it's part of the process for for Damien, 296 00:33:37,580 --> 00:33:43,610 the central character of of of thinking how he's going to respond to this kind of challenge on his community. 297 00:33:43,610 --> 00:33:51,980 And at first he thinks he's going to leave it and eventually he decides he's going to not leave it and participate in a collective struggle. 298 00:33:51,980 --> 00:33:57,530 And it starts there. And the film also ends at the same farmhouse. 299 00:33:57,530 --> 00:34:02,510 But the farmhouse that we had first met and in fact, just shortly before that scene, they've just been playing, hurling, as you said, 300 00:34:02,510 --> 00:34:08,540 and it's a kind of place of togetherness and camaraderie and singing and a actually kind of cross-class 301 00:34:08,540 --> 00:34:12,770 as well as you got an eye monger and a trainee doctor there and they're all playing hunting together. 302 00:34:12,770 --> 00:34:19,560 And it's competitive, manly pursuits that is going to be horribly translated into a very different kind of competitive, manly pursuit. 303 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:25,220 So then it's going to end up back at that site. In the meantime, has been banned. 304 00:34:25,220 --> 00:34:33,770 And it has Genay that all of Fitz-Gerald to me. We saw in the scene there at knelt in front of it in ruins. 305 00:34:33,770 --> 00:34:38,060 My life is now in ruins and the farmhouse behind her is in ruins. 306 00:34:38,060 --> 00:34:45,800 And it's it's. And the camera pulls back, I think, a little bit as as the character who's just delivered the letter delivering milk. 307 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:52,570 Well, news that her life has just been shocked. And it is a beautifully compiled thought. 308 00:34:52,570 --> 00:35:02,150 And that is a continued kind of punch that it packs and that I could imagine a different filmmaker would milk that shot. 309 00:35:02,150 --> 00:35:05,750 And you are very light touch on it and off. 310 00:35:05,750 --> 00:35:07,560 Even though we feel farmhouse, farmhouse, 311 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:15,140 this is kind of bookending the sense of where the film has been and of a potential for togetherness and utter 312 00:35:15,140 --> 00:35:22,880 desecration of what togetherness could possibly mean by end and how disciplined you have to be in order not to go. 313 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:28,400 I've got a good one in frame now. How long will I give it to an audience for? 314 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:33,140 Well, this a judgement, really. I mean, it's the same judgement throughout the film. 315 00:35:33,140 --> 00:35:40,280 And this just has to be consistent. I think it's to do with treating an audience as adults. 316 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:47,150 I mean, I hate sentimentality and I hate the you and the violins swooping in and trying to milk the tears. 317 00:35:47,150 --> 00:35:53,000 And it's just bad faith with the audience. I think, you know, it's the. 318 00:35:53,000 --> 00:36:05,690 It's not it's not tragic because the violins come in is tragic because of what we've seen, the potential that those people have and also the end. 319 00:36:05,690 --> 00:36:11,140 I mean, their characters, particularly, Damien. I mean, this is a character with is you said committed to life. 320 00:36:11,140 --> 00:36:19,970 Is this going to be adopted later? Emma O'Malley is a great Republican in the in the battle for the independents. 321 00:36:19,970 --> 00:36:30,390 And he gave that up so so that the real quality that would have made him a great doctor for saving lives is the quality that kills an. 322 00:36:30,390 --> 00:36:37,430 Because he can't give a. You know, he cannot he cannot uphold its principles. 323 00:36:37,430 --> 00:36:42,570 You know, and it's the same thing that leads him in the end to execute a young lad. 324 00:36:42,570 --> 00:36:52,020 He's grown up with because the lads betrayed them. And it's that firmness of purpose that that would have made him a wonderful doctor. 325 00:36:52,020 --> 00:36:58,340 And I guess a wonderful partner in life and at the same time destroys it. 326 00:36:58,340 --> 00:37:03,660 And the human cost of that. Clear. And then I'd feel anything anymore in his final letter. 327 00:37:03,660 --> 00:37:07,500 I think, yes, Teddy is nearly dead inside already or something. 328 00:37:07,500 --> 00:37:13,440 He says that actually it's been a crisis in which I say, let's just use this as a bounce into Daniel Blake, 329 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,990 because the Daniel plan, which sounds all about agency and asserting something, 330 00:37:17,990 --> 00:37:22,650 it's like leaving and about being individually present and the significance of 331 00:37:22,650 --> 00:37:29,160 being the individual as opposed to the winner take them on it feels like it. Is that a big yes, indeed. 332 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:36,330 Probably most people will unite on Blake, but perhaps you could. Just briefly, a set up for us what the film is about. 333 00:37:36,330 --> 00:37:40,590 Yes, it's a story that Daniel Blake is a man in his early 60s. 334 00:37:40,590 --> 00:37:48,630 He should be due to retire as a carpenter. But he's he can't work because he's had a heart attack and his doctors have told him he must not 335 00:37:48,630 --> 00:38:00,060 work the work capability assessment introduced under this government or since 2010 or before that. 336 00:38:00,060 --> 00:38:07,290 But this is a punitive act action because it still is a civil. 337 00:38:07,290 --> 00:38:09,900 People are hard to interview people. 338 00:38:09,900 --> 00:38:16,710 People claim to be sick and override their doctors, their consultants and say, no, we don't get what the medical profession say. 339 00:38:16,710 --> 00:38:23,320 We say you're fit for work. If they don't look for work, then that benefits get chopped. 340 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:31,380 Daniel strikes a friendship with a young woman, Katie, who's from London, but she can't get housing there. 341 00:38:31,380 --> 00:38:37,750 So she's sent north to the north east where rents are cheaper and she's given a house there and she 342 00:38:37,750 --> 00:38:43,590 find she's there with two kids and no family support and they become friends and support each other. 343 00:38:43,590 --> 00:38:50,010 Katie, again, has a benefits cut because she would like to be appointed to the job centre because she didn't know how to get there. 344 00:38:50,010 --> 00:38:54,750 Nevertheless, they cut her benefits to get food. She goes to a food bank. 345 00:38:54,750 --> 00:39:07,460 She's been starving her. She's been eating minimal subsid the kids get food and in the end, in desperation, she gets her food. 346 00:39:07,460 --> 00:39:18,050 And Daniel takes it there cause you any is she takes it, he takes her there and she she she goes to get a bag of food. 347 00:39:18,050 --> 00:39:22,670 She hasn't eaten probably for half a week. That that's important to know. 348 00:39:22,670 --> 00:39:30,710 I mean, we know that in the film, but you weren't just from a clip and we pick it up the thing where they just going into the food bank. 349 00:39:30,710 --> 00:39:39,740 And what struck us. And I hope you maybe folks will keep an eye for this is the absolute humanity and care of the other volunteers. 350 00:39:39,740 --> 00:39:42,460 And these are real volunteers in the food bank. 351 00:39:42,460 --> 00:39:53,280 Who in the scene and the other people in the food bank, apart from Cagen and Dan, people who use food banks? 352 00:39:53,280 --> 00:40:14,030 OK. Let's watch the scene. Thank you. Oh, I see. 353 00:40:14,030 --> 00:40:21,350 How do you feel when he comes out today? Thank you very much. Thank you. 354 00:40:21,350 --> 00:40:25,040 Such as food for yourself and the two children, Katie. Thank you. 355 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:29,560 Two children have a drink of choice and a biscuit. Would you like to go see Agnes? 356 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:35,720 Agnes. You do just the biscuit face. Jackie. 357 00:40:35,720 --> 00:40:42,620 Yeah. Would you be able to have Katie with her shopping today? Thank you, Kate. 358 00:40:42,620 --> 00:40:47,210 Thank you. So we've got one adult and two children there. 359 00:40:47,210 --> 00:40:54,250 Let me start with the vegetable. All right. 360 00:40:54,250 --> 00:41:00,850 I'll give you one side on my show. Jeff. Blown in any way we could do for you? 361 00:41:00,850 --> 00:41:09,470 No, I'm fine. I'm sure. All right. He just moved some stuff from here. 362 00:41:09,470 --> 00:41:13,090 You know. Yeah. No, no, I just come up from London. 363 00:41:13,090 --> 00:41:20,180 Right. Nice accent. How do you understand the joke? I'm right over here. 364 00:41:20,180 --> 00:41:29,320 We need another, but never got one. But was something like this. 365 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:33,190 I just keep going with stuff and then you tell me what I do on it. 366 00:41:33,190 --> 00:41:41,170 I think you said that you would have some time to write things, maybe don't even try and shame the shirt. 367 00:41:41,170 --> 00:41:56,760 Right. Right. You will be all by. And a the time it. 368 00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:02,170 People go to the food court and I'm back. That's right. 369 00:42:02,170 --> 00:42:10,380 And tins and your. Return anything else you want. 370 00:42:10,380 --> 00:42:21,260 There you go. Thank you. This person also had some professional pasta, so. 371 00:42:21,260 --> 00:42:31,400 And there's a pop star here. I get your Half-Step. A patriot. 372 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,580 All right. What you want you to consider. 373 00:42:35,580 --> 00:42:45,110 Right. Right. Right. Okay. 374 00:42:45,110 --> 00:42:49,660 All right. Sorry. Right. You want a drink? 375 00:42:49,660 --> 00:42:57,560 A drink. All. Fosamax. 376 00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:04,460 And here I am, and this is a film that has touched very many people, but it's also got a lot of people's noses, 377 00:43:04,460 --> 00:43:11,180 but that rather than leeching time from questions, we won't go into a one on one conversation about it. 378 00:43:11,180 --> 00:43:15,770 Now, can I will bow out at this. 379 00:43:15,770 --> 00:43:22,470 I mean, having thanking you for talking as to a little bit of the detail about process 380 00:43:22,470 --> 00:43:27,950 that some of these harrowing and thought-Provoking and significant films. 381 00:43:27,950 --> 00:43:31,880 Thank you. And now over to West to manage questions. Thank you, miss. 382 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:37,710 Okay. Thank you. Jesus. Judith, you don't need to buy it altogether if you're welcome. 383 00:43:37,710 --> 00:43:42,570 Transitive as it were. Take a backseat for now. I've got a whole bunch of interesting questions that are come through. 384 00:43:42,570 --> 00:43:48,000 And in fact, I'll take the last one first because it relates directly to Daniel Blake. 385 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:53,040 And it's a comment from Campton Race to an Alarm. 386 00:43:53,040 --> 00:44:00,400 Peter said, Good evening, Ken. Thank you so much for your time. He says, I confess to going to see Daniel Blake with some trepidation. 387 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:05,510 I'm a part time tribunal judge who hears MSA and PSP appeals. 388 00:44:05,510 --> 00:44:12,770 My fear was that when it came to the appeal hearing, the hero would be faced with a row of pompous, uncaring, bow tied idiots. 389 00:44:12,770 --> 00:44:17,750 Whereas that is not my experience at all. And there's a bracket for those who don't know. 390 00:44:17,750 --> 00:44:21,740 Disability appeals are decided by a panel of two or three, including the judge. 391 00:44:21,740 --> 00:44:23,720 So here's the question, Ken. 392 00:44:23,720 --> 00:44:31,430 It was such a relief to find out that the majority of characters who represented the state in this film showed real humanity. 393 00:44:31,430 --> 00:44:37,340 I loved the film and the opening passage in particular. My question is, what research did you do? 394 00:44:37,340 --> 00:44:44,330 No doubt extensive. Did you attend the tribunal? And if so, what was your experience? 395 00:44:44,330 --> 00:44:52,520 We we do a lot of research, mainly for levity, did most of this legwork. 396 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:57,800 But I went with it quite a lot. We met I mean, we were in the Jobcentres, really. 397 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:06,030 So everybody work. We talked to a lot of people who had worked in Jobcentres and still did work in Jobcentres through the mail. 398 00:45:06,030 --> 00:45:13,610 We found through the union, the Peerce PCOS. 399 00:45:13,610 --> 00:45:20,800 And we listened to their stories and we listened, obviously, to people who had been to using Jobcentres. 400 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:32,800 And they they they they told us everything. The we weren't at the coaches wouldn't have gone to a tribunal. 401 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:41,360 And that's in that storyline. I mean, he just got the information to the sanctions or not. 402 00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:46,880 And the same for Katie said that the tribunal didn't really arise. But I'm interested to hear the comments. 403 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:54,410 I suppose what it raises is the larger question, drawing on something that you said in your discussion with Judith about common 404 00:45:54,410 --> 00:46:00,440 humanity and also solidarity with the characters and the degree to which, 405 00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:05,050 if you like, there are goodies and bodies, to put it very straightforwardly in your film. 406 00:46:05,050 --> 00:46:11,810 And it doesn't seem to me that there are and it doesn't seem that the question here that that somewhere that's not the kind of filmmaker that you are. 407 00:46:11,810 --> 00:46:17,630 Could you say a bit more about that? No, absolutely not. I mean, the people in Jobcentres are they're not to blame. 408 00:46:17,630 --> 00:46:23,600 They're there. So many of them said we were there as long as we could stand it because we need the money. 409 00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:27,860 We were desperate. It was our job done left. 410 00:46:27,860 --> 00:46:34,460 One man who had worked for the union never got promoted. That he obviously has seniority should have given him. 411 00:46:34,460 --> 00:46:39,210 But it's you know, you don't go for the monkeys. When is the organ grinders that they caught in the subway? 412 00:46:39,210 --> 00:46:48,620 And I mean, it's Duncan Smith, you know, and his the gang, the whole clique of them who put in these draconian measures that that trap people. 413 00:46:48,620 --> 00:46:56,630 And, you know, the key thing is that when appeals were made were made and most of them were successful 414 00:46:56,630 --> 00:47:00,590 because the government calculated if they put in a whole boat load of sanctions, 415 00:47:00,590 --> 00:47:06,700 a lot of people wouldn't have the energy. They wouldn't have the determination, they wouldn't have the knowhow how to how to appeal. 416 00:47:06,700 --> 00:47:10,730 And they relied on that. And that's the cynicism of it that makes you so angry. 417 00:47:10,730 --> 00:47:18,190 And then they knew they were using hunger as a weapon, are using hunger as a weapon because they need the food banks expanded. 418 00:47:18,190 --> 00:47:26,270 What do they expand? Most of the people say I said it's a problem with sanctions to take money away from people who have nothing. 419 00:47:26,270 --> 00:47:32,290 You are telling them you can go hungry. And if that doesn't make us angrier, then what should? 420 00:47:32,290 --> 00:47:41,000 So there's two questions from some May one, a technical one and one is sort of one that flows directly from what you've just said. 421 00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:46,840 It's Mirah stressing that Britain has changed for the better or for worse since the time of Cathy come home. 422 00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:53,380 The words you've been doing this for a long time. And how has if you do think Britain has changed in one or other direction. 423 00:47:53,380 --> 00:47:58,090 Has that affected the way in which you approach your own work? 424 00:47:58,090 --> 00:48:03,940 Yeah, and I've made a mistake in the last question. And of course, the course he does go to church tribunals. 425 00:48:03,940 --> 00:48:10,780 His appeal finally comes through. Yeah. And he's waiting for waiting to go into the tribunal when he goes to the loo. 426 00:48:10,780 --> 00:48:18,950 And then he has a hard second. Does so I was wrong about my memories. I know that somebody can forget even their own story. 427 00:48:18,950 --> 00:48:26,060 Like you remind me of the newquist. So the new question is effectively, you've been doing this for a long time. 428 00:48:26,060 --> 00:48:32,890 Oh, yes. All the way back to Cathy. Come home. Has Britain got better or worse over that time? 429 00:48:32,890 --> 00:48:39,370 Well, and the secondary question is, does that change affect your own work as a film maker? 430 00:48:39,370 --> 00:48:47,190 Do you change with the times, if you like? Well, that's a complicated answer. 431 00:48:47,190 --> 00:48:54,030 But the the essence is that in the when we didn't Cathy come home and cast a laugh in the 60s, 432 00:48:54,030 --> 00:48:59,520 we were still in the aftermath of the post-war settlement. We still had the welfare states. 433 00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:04,230 The National Health Service was not riddled with private companies and subcontractors. 434 00:49:04,230 --> 00:49:11,020 There was still a programme of council housing, the the Social Security system that benefits Social Security. 435 00:49:11,020 --> 00:49:14,730 Did was there to protect people? Yes, there was a housing issues. 436 00:49:14,730 --> 00:49:19,680 We tried to shame Kathy, but no one foresaw Margaret Thatcher. 437 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:25,000 And the decade that followed her decade in which the welfare state began to be torn apart. 438 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:31,020 And of course, that tearing apart continued under Tony Blair and his continued in spades ever since. 439 00:49:31,020 --> 00:49:35,080 So that's that's the that's the big change. It's a change of culture. 440 00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:42,960 It's a change of consciousness. I mean, when during the 60s and before, you know, when I was growing up, there was a wage. 441 00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:49,530 The war had been won. There was a sense of collective consciousness of how well we supported each other, 442 00:49:49,530 --> 00:49:56,580 that that consciousness disappeared, prompted by the economic changes of the eighties. 443 00:49:56,580 --> 00:50:03,150 And that's the shift. That's the big shift. And yes, poverty is has got worse and the desperation has got worse. 444 00:50:03,150 --> 00:50:09,390 Of course, the medical advances, of course, there are, you know, being would big love washing machines where we didn't go, 445 00:50:09,390 --> 00:50:14,760 they may have a television where we didn't and things like that. And yes, of course, one can say get better. 446 00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:26,710 But the sense of community, the sense of mutual interdependence, of mutual solidarity, of as an economic system, which at least can look towards. 447 00:50:26,710 --> 00:50:34,810 Justice and social justice not gone. It's the individual and that's the big change in terms of film making. 448 00:50:34,810 --> 00:50:40,960 Well, maybe, maybe it's. It's the stories you tell. 449 00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:45,470 Change, really, that's what happens. And the response to them changes. 450 00:50:45,470 --> 00:50:50,410 But they the process don't change. It's still the process of. 451 00:50:50,410 --> 00:50:56,890 An observer who tries to see what is really in people's minds and hearts. 452 00:50:56,890 --> 00:51:01,300 Thank you. I've got another question just on this line and then we'll move to sort of more 453 00:51:01,300 --> 00:51:05,530 formal set of questions because there's is two kinds of questions coming through, if you like. 454 00:51:05,530 --> 00:51:14,440 Steve says much of your work has been sharply current. Two of my favourite, Sustiva, the historical pieces, Bali and Land and Freedom. 455 00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:19,760 So what prompted you to make these films at these particular times? 456 00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:23,810 And the historical ones are other big events. 457 00:51:23,810 --> 00:51:30,500 The Indic that that were changed politics, the Spanish Civil War, for example. 458 00:51:30,500 --> 00:51:34,970 That was the first war against fascism from which Britain stood aside. 459 00:51:34,970 --> 00:51:42,620 Only three years before the start of the Second World War. But she's got in, took over the government in in Spain. 460 00:51:42,620 --> 00:51:47,100 The British Foreign Office, we understand, gave me a helping hand. 461 00:51:47,100 --> 00:51:58,380 So it puts into into some context our attitudes, the state's attitude to fascism, but also it about the splits on the left. 462 00:51:58,380 --> 00:52:05,340 The split between Stalinists and Social Democrats who are, by and large, for accepting the status quo. 463 00:52:05,340 --> 00:52:09,840 Just give me the fascist and for the revolutionaries who wanted a new society altogether. 464 00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:14,220 And that conflict is is central to the labour movement and its history. 465 00:52:14,220 --> 00:52:17,520 The Irish Civil War, again, is was to say, look, 466 00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:24,240 this the Irish war is not about the British intervening in Ireland to stop the Irish killing themselves. 467 00:52:24,240 --> 00:52:31,020 This was a colonial struggle for independence from an occupying power which had been there for centuries. 468 00:52:31,020 --> 00:52:36,540 So rewriting that and and we will call it in time to say this. 469 00:52:36,540 --> 00:52:46,370 I mean, we go to the most appalling abuse for that. We were called in the Times colonist, a worst propagandist than Leni Riefenstahl. 470 00:52:46,370 --> 00:52:56,040 Now, Leni Riefenstahl was Hitler's propagandist. And Michael Heffer in the Telegraph wrote, I do not want to see I didn't didn't see the film. 471 00:52:56,040 --> 00:53:03,420 I didn't want to see the film because I didn't need to read Mein Kampf to know what allows Hitler was. 472 00:53:03,420 --> 00:53:05,880 Now, this is The Right-Wing Press. 473 00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:18,190 When you challenge their view of history and the abuse and the the intemperate language that is used when you challenge people's power. 474 00:53:18,190 --> 00:53:27,730 Is happens whenever you whenever you become involved in politics, on on issues like that and in discussion. 475 00:53:27,730 --> 00:53:32,960 It's a dangerous time. It's a dangerous. It's dangerous. 476 00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:38,850 Yeah. There's a question from Kenneth, which Kenneth says Ken. 477 00:53:38,850 --> 00:53:44,460 Which is kind of in a way, following on from what you've just said, which is what was the response? 478 00:53:44,460 --> 00:53:52,660 Could you tell us a bit more about the response of the local county cork community to the story that you were recalling from their past? 479 00:53:52,660 --> 00:53:58,660 Oh, David, they were terrific. I mean, they they couldn't have they couldn't they couldn't have been more worn. 480 00:53:58,660 --> 00:54:02,880 I mean, in fact, the I mean, we didn't make a lot of fuss over for me. 481 00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:08,500 You know, every time to move about on a fairly unobtrusively. And we were in the countryside for most of it. 482 00:54:08,500 --> 00:54:14,650 But the birdlife that were there were very supportive and particularly amongst our kids. 483 00:54:14,650 --> 00:54:24,850 You know, we had some academics who worked with us and in a detailed historical details and their knowledge, and they they were very supportive. 484 00:54:24,850 --> 00:54:30,010 But then you start smiling once you get off the plane, you know, whatever. 485 00:54:30,010 --> 00:54:39,070 Terrific people. Lovely place to to other. Beamish starts going back to the question of sort of the danger. 486 00:54:39,070 --> 00:54:45,760 Another question. Right. That's just come in is how difficult is it for you to get your films financed? 487 00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:47,890 Well, we've been lucky. 488 00:54:47,890 --> 00:54:57,580 I mean, there was a period in the in the 70s when after casting the film called Family Life Work, we couldn't do similar films at all. 489 00:54:57,580 --> 00:55:04,210 And they they were they were the carry ons or oh oh works. 490 00:55:04,210 --> 00:55:11,350 I mean, I quite like the carry ons Bill. Yet, you know, we obviously were that it was only American films. 491 00:55:11,350 --> 00:55:16,960 The eighties were a very difficult time because the low Channel four began and making films. 492 00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:24,730 It was a it wasn't an easy time for people of, you know, where I stood and people like me stood. 493 00:55:24,730 --> 00:55:31,780 We were certainly not flavour of the month. So I did two films that one film in the ages, and I did it. 494 00:55:31,780 --> 00:55:35,530 It was a good script, but I worked. My work was poor on this. 495 00:55:35,530 --> 00:55:40,690 I didn't do well. That was my fault. And then we start again. 496 00:55:40,690 --> 00:55:50,130 We got films made again via Channel four that was okay and then made London Freedom, which we worked with European co producers. 497 00:55:50,130 --> 00:55:52,210 And that's been the model. Yeah. 498 00:55:52,210 --> 00:56:00,910 And we because of money for the biggest audiences in France, by Miles, I mean is one example with the wind that shakes the body. 499 00:56:00,910 --> 00:56:05,710 There were 40 I think 40 prints in British cinemas. 500 00:56:05,710 --> 00:56:11,680 There were over 400 in France. Yeah, over 400. Is that in Ireland there were 70. 501 00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:19,130 Yeah. So I find it's mainly it's come from France and Italy and other European countries and Japan and that's been rock solid. 502 00:56:19,130 --> 00:56:22,780 That's interesting. Sorry, I don't want to. 503 00:56:22,780 --> 00:56:23,410 That's interesting. 504 00:56:23,410 --> 00:56:33,640 Partly because as we were talking about before we came on air, as it were, I can picture Fassbinder in the background and I wondered whether European. 505 00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:40,810 Yeah, you clearly are greatly celebrated. For example, in France, where where I work and I'm a French professor. 506 00:56:40,810 --> 00:56:48,970 I just wondered whether your whether the question thought from Louise actually, which are I'll frame in the terms that she puts forward, 507 00:56:48,970 --> 00:56:54,190 which is which directors were responsible for your political film education and I'll gloss it. 508 00:56:54,190 --> 00:56:58,990 British ones or European ones or what. Who were they. 509 00:56:58,990 --> 00:57:07,600 European ones. And not for the political education that that came from political engagements really in the sixties. 510 00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:12,790 Same thing seeing through the Labour government that Harold Wilson, 511 00:57:12,790 --> 00:57:20,080 when I delivered pamphlets for him and then two years later, you saw that he didn't make any change at all. 512 00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:26,800 And then there were political movements there. And that was and I really learnt and met people who were actually engaged in politics. 513 00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:33,760 And you you learn and you live in the world and you see how it operates. They the film influences Wurm style. 514 00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:43,240 It was stylistic and also saying that working class life is a fit subject for films. 515 00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:53,970 That last film was the Italian neorealist of the 50s, the post-war period to seek particularly the obvious one is bicycle thieves. 516 00:57:53,970 --> 00:58:04,970 There was a great favourite, but they and these they their importance to us was saying this is a fit subject for the cinema. 517 00:58:04,970 --> 00:58:11,460 Yeah, this is okay, you can do this. It doesn't have to be about posh people in smart apartments. 518 00:58:11,460 --> 00:58:15,700 Yeah. The stylistic ones were the Czech filmmakers. 519 00:58:15,700 --> 00:58:22,210 Milos Forman, Ya'ari, mentor of the Velvet Revolution, again in the sixties. 520 00:58:22,210 --> 00:58:25,520 And if you want to watch a couple of wonderful films, 521 00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:35,250 A Blonde and Love about Milos Forman and closely observed change by a so lovely films make you smile, touch. 522 00:58:35,250 --> 00:58:39,850 You are very human and beautiful. 523 00:58:39,850 --> 00:58:43,240 Come and study them all here at Oxford University in the European film course. 524 00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:51,790 But I suppose if we could turn now, we are effectively now turning to Fogleman to just two or three questions towards the. 525 00:58:51,790 --> 00:59:00,580 One is about music. You mentioned your your kind of common musical composer who's worked with you. 526 00:59:00,580 --> 00:59:09,940 Sort of a good deal. George Fenton, you a along the sort of larger question is how do you use music in your field, in your films? 527 00:59:09,940 --> 00:59:13,870 Because in the discussion you talked about liking when the violins come in. 528 00:59:13,870 --> 00:59:20,140 But nonetheless, there is, if you like, extra digested. There is music that complements the mood in your films. 529 00:59:20,140 --> 00:59:29,650 How do you make those decisions? Well, there is a sense of not you must not use music to make up for the deficiencies of film. 530 00:59:29,650 --> 00:59:33,430 The film has to the action and what is said. 531 00:59:33,430 --> 00:59:37,990 And the people should engage you without having to resort to music. 532 00:59:37,990 --> 00:59:48,070 If you believe music to make it more exciting, that's a failure. So, I mean, our attitude to music and the stability over the years with. 533 00:59:48,070 --> 00:59:51,300 Is it just to give you another perspective? 534 00:59:51,300 --> 01:00:00,590 I mean, for example, you might be doing a scene that is really a microcosm of something is this happened once or twice with George. 535 01:00:00,590 --> 01:00:10,530 The scene is a microcosm. That is that relates to a huge issue across society, across the country, 536 01:00:10,530 --> 01:00:19,360 across the world or other countries, whether a music fan can say, look, this is something very precise and. 537 01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:22,930 In this in this man's eyes are this this little group. 538 01:00:22,930 --> 01:00:32,550 But actually there's a wider significance and it can it can be the equivalent of a much wider shot. 539 01:00:32,550 --> 01:00:37,920 It says this is this is something eternal about this that you're watching. 540 01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:42,090 Even though it is utterly precise in particular to these characters. Yes. 541 01:00:42,090 --> 01:00:51,000 And so it's it's that sense of another perspective. I think that has to be very careful, because if you use it sparingly, 542 01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:57,690 as we've been doing, if it comes in and you notice it, then you undermine the film. 543 01:00:57,690 --> 01:01:04,520 So it's it's in. I mean, George has said it's harder to write two notes at the end than a full scale. 544 01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:06,660 For that reason. Yeah. 545 01:01:06,660 --> 01:01:17,430 I wonder if again, following on from this idea of the sort of particularity of the moment, the gesture of the word and the larger picture, Lucas, 546 01:01:17,430 --> 01:01:21,930 is that to what extent do you find directing in another language presents difficulties 547 01:01:21,930 --> 01:01:27,270 to show it is responding to gesture and expression enough in this context? 548 01:01:27,270 --> 01:01:33,360 I think I think in particular about land and freedom. Yeah. But yeah, no, it's very difficult. 549 01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:39,030 I mean, that's why we had to do it through the eyes of an international group, not the International Brigades, 550 01:01:39,030 --> 01:01:44,910 because they haven't arrived yet, but an international group of of volunteers. 551 01:01:44,910 --> 01:01:48,990 And then the role languages and some of it is in Spanish, quite a bit in Spanish. 552 01:01:48,990 --> 01:01:55,980 But I really struggled on that. And I have had to have someone mushing in my ear what they're saying and someone who is 553 01:01:55,980 --> 01:02:02,710 sensitive to if a word had a slightly different connotation from a literal translation. 554 01:02:02,710 --> 01:02:13,210 Mm hmm. That I was aware of it. And when we were cutting it, we had a Vasana pesto came and sat in the cutting room with us as we were. 555 01:02:13,210 --> 01:02:17,790 And she was saying, well, he actually means that he doesn't mean what you think he means. 556 01:02:17,790 --> 01:02:20,940 He said that he absolutely had to rely. But it's very difficult. 557 01:02:20,940 --> 01:02:29,910 Most difficult part of it all is to know what word to say to trigger a response from the actor, because you say the wrong word. 558 01:02:29,910 --> 01:02:33,750 You can you can throw people right up that that's really difficult. 559 01:02:33,750 --> 01:02:38,340 But almost everybody in the cast, they had it idea some English. 560 01:02:38,340 --> 01:02:49,560 So we we compile in no way am I right in thinking that a good few of the cast members in London, freedom again were quote unquote, amateur actors. 561 01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:54,450 I never say amateur actors. No, I thought I put it in quotations. 562 01:02:54,450 --> 01:03:00,510 But one of the questions is here. How difficult is it then to work with. 563 01:03:00,510 --> 01:03:05,790 Okay, what do we say? If it's not an attractive people who aren't trained actors, it expands yet. 564 01:03:05,790 --> 01:03:12,220 And you take them all the same. Exactly the same. They they act as if with big experience. 565 01:03:12,220 --> 01:03:19,650 And I've worked some with a lot of experience like Peter Mullan and Kelly and obviously Robert Carlyle, 566 01:03:19,650 --> 01:03:25,770 Ricky Tomlinson and, you know, lots and lots of experience but actually treat everyone the same. 567 01:03:25,770 --> 01:03:32,060 You did. You did. And by the ones who know how films work. 568 01:03:32,060 --> 01:03:38,100 Just by how they are, they they communicate that to the others. 569 01:03:38,100 --> 01:03:48,350 No, by saying anything. And the they also from the people whose whose life experience might might connect to the power they are doing, 570 01:03:48,350 --> 01:03:55,710 they become of term of form a reference, you know. How would you do this or what some if you actually approach the job. 571 01:03:55,710 --> 01:04:03,240 How do you manage this or say that again. But move by process of osmosis than, than anybody saying. 572 01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:07,400 And you have to do fewer takes or more takes. No, it doesn't. 573 01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:12,920 It still doesn't affect us. So because you practise little things like that without the knowing you're practising. 574 01:04:12,920 --> 01:04:16,430 Right. OK. I've got two more questions for you. Yeah. 575 01:04:16,430 --> 01:04:20,030 We're already nearly five past, but let's carry on for another five minutes. Okay. 576 01:04:20,030 --> 01:04:24,580 One is a sort of again, a kind of Quaid I technical question. 577 01:04:24,580 --> 01:04:32,900 Although it's not only technical and that is what's the difference between making a film for television and a film for the cinema? 578 01:04:32,900 --> 01:04:37,670 This will when I began, there wasn't really a difference. 579 01:04:37,670 --> 01:04:42,320 I mean, I guess it is the essential things are the same. 580 01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:46,370 Is this story worth telling? What's this? What's the point of it? 581 01:04:46,370 --> 01:04:51,170 Is a significant. Is it interesting? Do I care about it? 582 01:04:51,170 --> 01:04:56,840 Am I engaged by. I said that film making level. And then what's the truth. 583 01:04:56,840 --> 01:05:02,660 How do you how to reach out. What's the story line. And then on the day we get everything ready. 584 01:05:02,660 --> 01:05:08,610 Where's the light. How can we get it if it's raining. You know the same things. 585 01:05:08,610 --> 01:05:13,730 You might shoot the television film a bit closer because the screen's a bit smaller. 586 01:05:13,730 --> 01:05:17,980 You know, you might you might do that rather than waste shots. Yeah. 587 01:05:17,980 --> 01:05:22,290 The apart from that, I wouldn't want to make any. 588 01:05:22,290 --> 01:05:27,420 But also I haven't done a television fiction film for. 589 01:05:27,420 --> 01:05:31,430 I mean, I haven't done a television fiction film for many years. 590 01:05:31,430 --> 01:05:35,510 I mean, over 40 years. So I'm not the person to ask. 591 01:05:35,510 --> 01:05:41,930 I mean, that was before the zapper came in. Yeah. Well, I guess that would be another question if I was you being. 592 01:05:41,930 --> 01:05:49,850 Yeah. Listen, I've missed that you mentioned Malcolm Wise when you were talking about your relationship with your your writer. 593 01:05:49,850 --> 01:05:56,240 I think we can agree that you're not really mocking him. Not least that your films are not exactly a barrel of laughs. 594 01:05:56,240 --> 01:06:01,010 But one question. The last one, perhaps, is that it's from Lucy. 595 01:06:01,010 --> 01:06:13,130 Despite examining different of very difficult, often bleak political subjects, your films always seem to me to be quietly hopeful, to find the beauty. 596 01:06:13,130 --> 01:06:17,690 Is this something you agree with? And if so, how do you go about this? 597 01:06:17,690 --> 01:06:22,800 Well, thanks, Lucy. I mean, I'm glad you say it, too. Absolutely. 598 01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:26,940 seise. I mean, it's it's the it's the beauty of simple things, isn't it? 599 01:06:26,940 --> 01:06:32,260 It it's it's the it's the beauty in a in an old face as well as a young one. 600 01:06:32,260 --> 01:06:42,190 He says, thinking of his own. And it's and it's a beautiful little casual things you the way of. 601 01:06:42,190 --> 01:06:49,660 Simple things, and then many again, it's done to lights and framing and how you select them put it. 602 01:06:49,660 --> 01:06:58,330 It's in it's in Hoby. It's in people's resilience. The fact people will always fight back, you know, does the hope. 603 01:06:58,330 --> 01:07:08,140 It's it's the hope that if you're in trouble, don't go to a rich area, go to April, kill one, because that's where people always help each other. 604 01:07:08,140 --> 01:07:14,800 And it's and it's comedy. You know, if you want to laugh, don't go with wealthy people. 605 01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:21,970 Go and stand in the bar with a rage. Just ordinary folks. You'll hear laughter and it's genuine laughter. 606 01:07:21,970 --> 01:07:27,760 And there's a warmth to the humour. And people, you know, sometimes say, why do you put jokes? 607 01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:32,260 Well, it's full of jokes and the heart of the situation. 608 01:07:32,260 --> 01:07:37,360 Often the the of the jokes and just the sense of humour. 609 01:07:37,360 --> 01:07:41,690 The top people smile and people who are deaf things and wear funny clothes. 610 01:07:41,690 --> 01:07:50,500 These just these silly things that are made. And so that sense of humour, the sense of warmth to send, of friendship, comradeship, solidarity, 611 01:07:50,500 --> 01:07:57,450 mutual support, even, you know, even when there's great oppression, as in the Irish film, 612 01:07:57,450 --> 01:08:05,470 you know, even when there's an occupying army beating it to death and and taking your land and whatever there are, 613 01:08:05,470 --> 01:08:10,490 there's those moments of gentleness and moment as as. 614 01:08:10,490 --> 01:08:18,470 And as Judith was kind enough to say, I mean, there's moments of tenderness and and care, and that's. 615 01:08:18,470 --> 01:08:24,850 I'll give you hope, isn't it? It's that is the generosity of spirit that most people have and the sense of 616 01:08:24,850 --> 01:08:30,610 justice that most people have and that and the determination to fight back. 617 01:08:30,610 --> 01:08:33,730 And that's what gives you hope. Thank you. 618 01:08:33,730 --> 01:08:40,720 I'll end with a comment, which is takes us, in a way back to the St. Peter's side of things that's coming from Charlie. 619 01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:45,100 Can you above anyone make me proud to be a St. Peter's alumnus? 620 01:08:45,100 --> 01:08:48,340 I Daniel Blake was the last film to bring me to tears. 621 01:08:48,340 --> 01:08:55,680 Thank you for consistently striving to represent the stories of the unrepresented and those left behind. 622 01:08:55,680 --> 01:09:01,650 I think if if it's okay, we'll stop on that comment on less, you particularly want to add anything else? 623 01:09:01,650 --> 01:09:05,430 No, I just want to say thank you. It's my. 624 01:09:05,430 --> 01:09:10,350 I had some wonderful moments, said Sam Peters, when he was some peaceful. 625 01:09:10,350 --> 01:09:14,730 And the warmth and friendship when I've been back is as generous as it was then. 626 01:09:14,730 --> 01:09:20,310 So it's a it's always a huge privilege to come back. And thank you for that. 627 01:09:20,310 --> 01:09:25,140 I think that should bring us to the end of our time at the end of our discussion this evening. 628 01:09:25,140 --> 01:09:32,940 So thank you to both Judith for making this happen and to can thank you to all our viewers at home for watching. 629 01:09:32,940 --> 01:09:41,460 I should say this event would not have been possible without the support from many others behind the screens, including the torch team. 630 01:09:41,460 --> 01:09:47,190 So thank you. I extend my thanks to all of them as well. But for now, I think Judith has disappeared from our screens. 631 01:09:47,190 --> 01:09:51,310 But thank you, Judith. And also thank you can and goodbye. 632 01:09:51,310 --> 01:09:59,730 Thank you. We do hope that you, our viewers, will join us again for future. 633 01:09:59,730 --> 01:10:07,290 We have that. You, our viewers will join us again for future Big Ten live events over the coming weeks as we continue to bring together researchers, 634 01:10:07,290 --> 01:10:14,820 students and creative artists from across different disciplines to explore some of the important subjects in the humanities. 635 01:10:14,820 --> 01:10:20,250 I've also been asked to point out that some peaches will be hosting a public event on March the 1st, 636 01:10:20,250 --> 01:10:30,090 in which Dr. Suzanne Hudson will be reporting on another important event for humanity, namely some of her work on the Oxford vaccine trials. 637 01:10:30,090 --> 01:10:33,840 Now, thank you all for joining us and goodbye for now. 638 01:10:33,840 --> 01:11:15,069 Thank you.