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The Platforming Artists podcast series is supported by Torch as part of humanity's cultural programme.

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Hello and welcome to the sixth episode in our Chameleon Platforming Artist podcast.

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And we're happy to welcome Theo Feeney. Gabriel, the poet today, who actually was one of the poets in our first production,

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Matear 2018 in Oxford, one of the most memorable and powerful poems from that show.

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And we're so happy to have her working with us again. FENA, welcome.

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Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for having me here. I'm just going to tell our lovely audience a bit about you.

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If Enor is multiband winning published poet from Slough.

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She graduated University of Oxford. She studied philosophy and theology there and has been commissioned by a whole host of people, the BBC.

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She's appeared in the Tower Poets Anthology since Dizzy in the Linden Avenue Journal.

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She's also been featured in the Guardian News and numerous other publications and journals.

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Her writing histories incredibly impressive.

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After graduating Oxford, she'd completed an internship at Penguin Random House with Storms Imprint Marquee Books there,

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and she now works as a published freelance writer, an artist and and a lot of us,

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any of us who in Eurostat also know that she works as the founder and editor in chief of Onyx magazine,

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which is an incredible publication that is dedicated to publishing talented black poets, artists and writers.

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And we had their latest issue in December of 20/20, and we're going to talk about it today.

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She's currently also working on a really exciting short film, her first short film based on Lydia Simmons.

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And you'll find out who that is in just a couple of moments. And another thing that Finner and I share is that we both are absolutely,

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completely obsessed with the kind of people I think FEMA edge me out on the obsession, something that she loves.

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A long introduction, but a great introduction for her, for a really incredible Panopto that we have here today, FENA.

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Lydia Simmons, just for our audience, I mean, you're going to tell us a lot about that.

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But she's the first black person and really specifically the first African Libyan woman to be a mayor in England and to do tell us about,

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you know, what inspired you to create this and to create the short film?

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Well, I mean, it's not just to the UK is is Europe.

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And I think what inspired means to really archive Lydia's story was seeing black women not only in positions of power,

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but black women willing to brave sorts of spaces that they haven't really seen themselves in before.

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And they carry the community with them into their spaces and are then able to effect change.

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So what I saw was something I almost see in myself is willing to that willingness to sort of brave spaces and

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see where these decision makers are gathering and affecting the communities and sort of not infiltrating,

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but pushing yourself to try to get in there to effect change within your community.

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And I think a similar journey to me happened with Onex.

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And so it was just really incredible for me to discover that there was this black woman from my

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local area because I was born and raised in Slough and I had never learnt about her in school.

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I hadn't heard of her before. I stumbled across her on a Web site.

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Well, I was just looking into the local history of the area. I saw this picture of her mayoral portrait and I thought, oh, my God.

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From Slough. From Slough, because they have a bad rap.

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But yena is just completely incredible. I was completely inspired.

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And the more I looked into her story, the deeper it and I thought there is absolutely not enough recognition around that.

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And I want to definitely uplift this profile not only for the amazing what she's done,

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but also an inspiration to black women in general in terms of, um, merits and what we can do.

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There was a really incredible story. There's a lot to unpack.

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And in your answer there, I think the first thing that comes out to me is exactly what you said,

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which is the the the I understand why you use the word infiltrating.

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And I think that obviously it's such a complicated thing because you, in a way,

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are sort of infiltrating a space that obviously so, so clearly sort of we have this chameleon all the time.

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So clearly sort of does and moneybag. But then obviously you infiltrate and then as you say, often these this these kind of pioneers,

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they're really the ones really the ones who effect incredible change.

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And this is another example of sort of infiltrating the the really white publishing space of Oxford that was extremely sort of impressively diverse.

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And you did sort of infiltrate that space with the magazine. And I think that's really interesting.

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And then, of course, the standard incredible pioneer in community.

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Yes. We don't teach anyone about. They completely forgot and they don't turn up in schools, you know, of course, we we just.

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Even when it's in your own area and someone that directly has has affected the very place that you're in, you don't you don't hear about that.

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But then, of course, fantastic that your you're bringing this this film forward.

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What kind of what kind of film is it? I mean, is it is it is it narrative.

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Is it. Tell us a bit about the film. Film in inner detail. So the film I just wanted Slough to really run throughout the veins of this film.

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So a lot of the imagery obviously is based in and around the area and it's mainly centred around me because of Cosied 19.

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We wanted to get Lydia involved as much as possible, but we definitely wanted to protect her.

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She's an 18. She's an 82 year old woman. So I think that the film is a source of narrative.

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It has all of the breadth of the landscape of itself,

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spaces and sort of I want it to be recognised as home to people who've grown up in thousands of shots of light.

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If you're from Slough, you'll know what I'm talking about, the train station, the big Tesco, Soho, all of these sort of local areas.

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And it's just amazing to see not only those images juxtaposed Lydia's journey, but I was very lucky enough to be able to talk to her.

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And we had a really long interview. And she really admired the sort of kind of gusto within the younger generation.

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And she trusted me with her archival clippings of her press cuttings, all of her old photographs.

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So it's very much me kind of overlaying these press cuttings of her with the narration of the film in the film.

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And it just it all comes together beautifully shot by my very, very talented friend, Theodore Angus.

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He was my cameraman for the TDA shoot.

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So it's really exciting. It's really intimate. It features me.

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But I'm not the up front and centre focus because it's not about me.

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I'm sort of on the edges or I'm under the name of a road that's brought up and things like that.

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But yes, it's just very, I think archival almost kind of.

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All right. 3D documentary fusion hybrid.

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It sounds you know, it sounds extremely interesting.

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I think it's also it's nice to see something like this that isn't just in sort of documentary for me there.

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It's nice to see that it's got space. And it's I mean, as you always are, extremely creative with how the story is put forward.

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Also super cool. I didn't realise that you'd sort of interviewed and actually received sort of personal things from Lydia.

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That's that's that's amazing. What was it like? Just sort of quickly tell us, meeting Haren and what was that conversation in the interview like?

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Outstay hilarious. Like she is an 80s hero, RVN grandma.

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Like she is so sharp. It's incredible.

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And she would be like, oh, what did you care about this or did you know about this in the area?

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And I'm like this these.

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What happens is, is there furiously scribbling away? And I just I thought, it's so edifying to know that I love.

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I love slow a lot. And I saw that same love in her for her area.

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And I think she still the love I liked the slow and the people in Slough and the history

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of so and that was why she trusted me with all of her old clippings that she said,

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please give them back. She didn't want to give them to me really at first, because people just because she gets she gets harangued a lot,

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because you have to understand the title of being like first black woman to be male like October rolls around

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and Black History Month and it's poor eight year old woman has to be like hobbling to her phone book.

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I mean, from London, like it's very RACC from then as October ends, everything sight.

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And I guess so she thought originally I was coming up today, October Black History Month, and I was like, nah, I'm from Slough.

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I really lo Slough Island. She gave things to people before and actually didn't give it back to her, which I find disgusting say that either.

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And she just was just really lovely and she stressed the importance of culture and never forget seeing your culture.

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And so that was a really driving force for the interview.

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And I hope that comes across in the film as well. I'm sure it will.

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And I'm for Odean. Please do say when when this film will be available, where they can when where they can see it.

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All of these things. Let's let's get that out there. So I think the most in touch platform where you can track my journey will be Instagram.

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I am launching the film on Friday, the twenty sixth of March, and I didn't actually know that this month was International Women's History Month.

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I was grey making a film of Lydia who plays.

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International history by being Europe's first black woman to be mayor. And it will be available on my YouTube channel.

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You can find it at Leelah FENA. That's l i l a p h i n a.

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And that's my across all platforms. But yeah, I'm definitely gonna do so of a run up in the seven days leading up to the drop.

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And yeah. Just be great to celebrate everything that she's done with as many people as possible.

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Docility all if all of Fenice links will be on our website by, by the podcast.

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You'll be sure to be able to find all of this there as well. But I mean, this this sounds incredible.

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Well, we touched on Onyx and I'm that's some that's the thing I sort of remember apart from a deal.

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Obviously, the thing I sort of remember, you may for an in going to the Onyx summit alone to remember all of that talk,

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talk, talk, talk to us a bit about Onyx and a little bit about about starting at Oxford.

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But let's get out of the exit pace and also then moving it to London and your your your post Oxford movements with with the magazine there.

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I mean, Onex started off in my student bedroom in 2017, and I just saw a wealth of black talent around me.

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And I wanted to give it a platform. As you said, Oxford can be a very oppressive space.

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And I mean, it's operating within the metrics of colonial history and elitism.

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So, of course, these infrastructures are not suddenly going to disappear. But what I wanted to do was to create a sort of expression shop.

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Kids were raised in the homogenous ethos that and that can be very prevalent.

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So I guess on it for me was it was a way of the way of championing the depth of talent I saw around me.

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People weren't just medicks. They had full canvas paintings in their bedrooms and it was just ridiculous.

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So I thought this needs to exist together in a collective shout.

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And so that was on exc in my head and I can do alone.

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I was joined by my wonderful deputy editor and the first year Sarena, author,

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powerhouse of a woman and now working at Hachette urging incredible like that.

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And we eventually attracted about six other wonderful, wonderful black women at Oxford.

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And we launched on it in twenty eighteen with a thousand print run copy and an incredible launch, which actually you guys are at.

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You did a performance. Yeah, the chorus was. Yeah, I remember that.

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And I mean, it was just spine tingling. It was amaze me. Energy was electric.

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And it just felt so satisfying seeing community up front and centre in a place where it can feel so fragmented to even meet up.

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So it was it was a beautiful start, a trajectory in Oxford and took.

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Talk to me about it. Now, the movements you're making, obviously outvote, said Pace University,

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making this professional production professional publication sorry, in London now.

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Yeah, well, not just London. I think our main focus right now is to really draw in the source of UK and is

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very much focussed on getting the publication into educational establishments.

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Because our focus is two pronged is firstly, yes, tackling the rights of black authors, black poets, black artists within industry.

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But also there is the educational element because I mean,

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one of the things that will stay to stay with me to this day is getting an email from someone who was interviewing at a college and saying,

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I felt really nervous before my interview of seeing all these portraits of white men on the walls and Onyx was on the table.

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I picked it up and I was like, rah, there are people like me. And I think a perspective, you know, prospectuses won't do it.

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The talks about, you're welcome, Paller do it.

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It's only until you see the voice and you're like, oh, my God, they're talking about lions that I like it.

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It's the authenticity of Onyx and the pro. It has to reclaim these educational establishments in some small way.

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That is really the focus. So he really looking to spread that across the UK with educational establishments and try and broaden our reach that way.

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That's the focus at the moment. And obviously, I know, you know, as comedian, we're doing trying to do a lot of work with schools.

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And I don't think it can be overstated the importance of getting this in the hands of younger people,

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in the hands of people who may be then thinking about applying to institutions

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like what's in Cambridge who feel like there is no space for them there. And it's so important to to to show them that this kind of thing does exist.

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It isn't just the old white portraits and statues of Winston Churchill or whatever nonsensical things they have everywhere.

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Instead, it is it is really thriving. Not with enough diversity,

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but there is that there is there are people there that you can you can form a community with and find mutual ground with if you are not,

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you know, the standard private school entrance to to to Oxford or Cambridge.

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And I love that you're doing that. But on the topic of sort of making systemic change.

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We've seen in the last year movements to to make systemic change were hoping that that movement doesn't just stay as a movement,

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but instead becomes real every chef. I know that you have a sort of mixed feeling about the happenings of last summer and the re

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uprising of the bail movement and so many other race reckonings that we've had over the last year,

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for example, that the drastically worse effects of the kind of ice crisis on on on BME communities in particular.

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Well, I would love you to talk. And obviously, you're doing well. That is directly relevant to all of that.

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What were your feelings through quarantine, through through through the horrendous events of last summer and the movement revolution that followed?

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Why is there any triggering question, Ashleigh? And I think.

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I think that there's a lot of care that needs to be taken when approaching this because, well, I'm all I'm seeing now,

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I'm understanding coming out of this is the reduction of years old, decades of,

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dare I say, centuries of struggle now being source of shoehorned into a summer.

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Yeah. And it's really painful because I was in an event recently and white women casually put up, you know, Lossiemouth, George Floyds murder.

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And it was just moments that sound bites used to kind of extrapolate this movement that people think is, you know, oh, it's happening.

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And. And it started last summer. And I just it's I feel this sort of.

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Increased hyper visible focus around last summer is symptomatic of the way that people have been ignorant

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to these movements and the fact that the systems have been moving this way with students inception.

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Yes, sir. So I'm kind of really against the sort of metrics of last summer and of course, Lloyd, because it's not just George Floyd.

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So why is this the only energy that we have in terms of analytical discourse?

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That is the bridge of focus. I just I'm very wary.

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And I think what happened last summer was a lot of increased attention because people's lives were put on Stanstead shoe lines.

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Everyone couldn't avoid it in the ways that they normally do.

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And you would see on the news Israel policy got Danny Blackhall is not terrible, but for black people, we have been living with this our whole lives.

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So it was really confusing to now feel the source of energy of this iconic guilt.

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And I was really moved by a piece of fear to that.

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One of my favourites face Rice's Jasmine Jones as she did this brilliant production and she calls the white Gilt's masses.

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And I saw a loss of a loss of sort of action that was very much missing previously because this didn't start with George Floyd.

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We can go all the way back to several Black Lives Matter protests.

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And I think it just added a sort of frantic and inescapable energy that that negatively harm the loss of black people.

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We had discussions being like, oh, my God, I just found out about this and racism.

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And it's sort of having to experience that over and over again is is quite damaging.

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And so when I look at what's happened last summer and I look at the way now, life well seems to be moving back to some semblance of normal.

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I'm really sceptical of the infrastructural changes that would need to happen because guilt in and of itself cannot affect things.

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I don't believe that I'm guilt in and of itself can affect things without measurable action coming as a consequence of that.

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And what tends to happen, especially with online, is that people can sort of say that, that.

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You know, denounce it. We need to I a lot. It's so important to have these discussions.

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It's so important to change. And then I wait for the change.

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So I'm very much waiting to see the measurable actions that will that will arise.

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Maybe of this seismic shift of attention. But it's very important to note that the movement did not come to a head last summer.

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I think that, yeah, I agree with you so much. And I know I.

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I always say when when talking to people in sort of meetings about.

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About. About media or about comedian, I say that, you know,

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we're only remotely able to do this because of powerhouses like Talor and Tamasha and Tara who have made Devastator.

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And people have been using media for centuries as a piece of art, as a piece of everything from from resistance to.

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To a space where where where you can relate to stories that may be more relevant to you

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that aren't involved normally in the common or in the general scope of creativity.

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And, you know, it was the first play performed in Cuba by women post the revolution.

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I mean, it's got such a history and I really agree with you. And I think also recently about sort of it's a sin and that's popularity and forgetting.

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You know, there are people I speak to who don't know what Stonewall is. And suddenly it's all about it's a it to and it's visible.

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You know, that happened in 40 years ago. And people have been pioneering for that for that whole time.

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And I and I do think that the the sort of shallowness of looking at things is this is what happened

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or some it really disrespects so many activists to who we is as now people who are being,

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you know, activists are and tried to make change are very much completely relying on.

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We stand on the way that they did.

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And we are only able to do the work that we're doing because of the ground that they have laid for four decades, centuries.

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As you say, I do think that's an extremely important point. And it's I wouldn't even Nessa's equal a nuance.

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It's just sort of a foundational point that I do agree really has been forgotten or even wilfully ignored,

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I think, because by accepting it, you have to equally accept that.

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Then before last summer, you weren't you know, you weren't that way.

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You didn't take the time to be aware and accepting that is accepting a whole level of ignorance and a whole level of guilt.

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As you say, that is very much true. But, you know, now people feel like they they shouldn't be admitting to.

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I think that's an extremely interesting point. Yeah. And I also felt like guilt isn't because guilt is not a neutral emotion, guilt and anger.

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They can feel you. But it's very much not sustainable.

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So what we see is the catharsis of this. I call it white guilt.

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I've donated this or they point to the actions and it's like I've done this, I've done X, Y, Z.

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But in terms of sustainability,

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I think it comes from a place of active awareness and consistent support and guilt should not be this the centre of that framework.

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And I feel like it's almost again re centring whiteness to here for any activism to come from white guilt.

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I think it's intention saviour ism we if we get to places like that.

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So I think it's really important to go further than last summer and see the infrastructures that have been existing before that,

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because again, what I saw was new platforms being made and things like this.

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It's just it's very much about respecting what's come before and the history that has preceded the peak of attention that happened last summer.

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I think all of this is hopefully, you know, us talking and I'm sure numerous people talking,

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you are aware of these things will start to bring these nuances.

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But I do also agree. I mean, I'm a little bit cynical and I'm just waiting for the for the real hard.

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The real change, the real hard cash, the real hard legislation that that is going to back up this this refocus.

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Let's let's try that. Oh, no. So I think it's important to note that revelation isn't a one time event as it's famously known.

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So the revelation is not the singular legislation.

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It's not the singular point. It's happening now.

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It's happened before. It will continue to happen.

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And reframing that is, how am I doing this work for revolutionary infrastructure in my own avenues, in my own arenas.

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And that's that's the. So that's it. Yeah. That's a very it's a very valuable and important point in this.

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Sort of brings us wonderfully on two to two a piece that I'm lucky enough to sort of have had an exclusive look at,

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which is called Lydia, which is that part of your creation for this incredible project?

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You're doing the short film.

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And actually one of the lines I picked out before we we'd had this discussion was grant us the grace to never forget the works of the elders.

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And you go on then to say our homes are built out of their names and our history from what they have done.

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And I don't know that ties in so well with the discussion that we've just had.

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These are sort of incredible lines. Why don't you talk. Talk a little.

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About this this work and and this kind of idea that the work surveiled does is something that certainly we're very interested in media.

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For me, I think it's really important to note that got in that line is not monotheistic.

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Good. It's sort of spiritual. Black woman in terms of black women leading their communities as creators.

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So when I when I say that line, may God grant us the grace to never forget the works of the elders.

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It's an approach to the intergenerational legacies of black women.

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And the sources poem is a tribute to remembrance.

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And so in the framework of my poem, I create and I preserve, as Lydia also created and preserved for other black women.

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And the the line of hymns I made, all of their names you'll see in the film is because of the housing.

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That was a symbolic tribute to Lydia.

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There's housing in the local area that actually bears Lydia's name because of the work

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that she did in creating housing for people in the local area who were in desperate,

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desperate need. So it's symbolic and metaphorical, but also very, very practical.

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And that's something that I tried to do with this poem in order to communicate

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the history of how black and our history from what they've done is is just,

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again, not an additional image related to to the the really structural way.

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She she changed the she changed the framework of not only black women being in politics,

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but also the legislation of not just now, as you'll see when the film comes out, but many cities in the UK.

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And I think it's I think it's completely incredible the work that he's done as a poet.

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I find one of my one of the things I love to talk about is the materials and and material things work.

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What can we build out of what what substances do we trust?

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What substances can we build from? We trust wood. We trust Barack.

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We just don't we don't trust blood in certain contexts. And I just I really like playing with materials.

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And it's a theme that pops up in my work a lot. So our homes, our houses, our homes out their names and our history is built from what they have done.

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So I like merging sort of the intangible and the tangible is a poetic.

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Well, I find that is very interesting. And it's I didn't actually realise that they were the nuance of that line.

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But the fact that the houses were actually named after and it shows sort of quite how embedded someone is as as influential as she was,

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is within these communities. Even if those communities choose not to teach, share and make can they made to to future generations.

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And once again, I think it's incredible that you are offering this as a as a resource for people to learn not.

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I think this is an incredible thing, especially I hope for the people of Slough who will realise and recognise and

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re recognise the importance of that name in the houses and in the streets,

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as you're saying. Look, I cannot believe it. Somehow we're nearly we're nearly the end.

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Jesus, these things things go so quickly. But something that we like to sort of say at the end is obviously you're doing really revolutionary work.

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It teaches us that the buzzword of the of the podcast. And I just want to hear sort of your thoughts moving forward.

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Obviously, we talked about how there's a lot that I mean, there's always a lot that needs to be done.

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And and I would just love to hear a bit about, you know,

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the movements that you're making it and what you hope to see over the next sort of year and the changes

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that you think are the right changes to make as we move forward to sit around this off for this podcast.

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Really, really big question. I think, again, is it's really important.

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Well, what Lydia actually taught me is that we have to start where we are.

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We often categorise revolution as this massive thing that's so far from us.

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It's gonna be this this historical event. You think revolution. You think.

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You know, storming of buildings and beheading elite.

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And I think those those kind of seismic shifts in history happen when they need to happen.

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And that's something that's very comforting. But also, we can't ignore what is happening around us now.

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And so I see Lidia's work in legislation. She changed the infrastructure to disrupt order in housing.

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And simply put. Those who were in need first and now that is, you know, sort of invent embedded within the system.

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And so she inverted it. She turned it on its head. That's also quite revolutionary.

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And so direct action in our SRES arenas because we can't we can't tackle everything.

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You know, you're going to be better at some things are going to be closer to some areas.

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Well, and this is all I mean, this is all from Audrey Lord.

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And I mean, there's so much I could get into.

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But I think the make the main change. I want to see happen is a rededication to people's communities and the black

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people and the people who are being and continue continuing to be suppressed,

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obliterated and annihilated by the system. I mean, kov.

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It has just been, again, an exposé of stories and narratives that are well known within the black community and our history with healthcare.

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So, I mean, a refocused energy in whatever arena you're standing in to effect change.

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And that can look like talking to your superiors when something is said or that can look like, say, why is this like that?

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And really challenging and not challenging to reform the system, but to divest power away from me?

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I think that's really important. We can't change the systems. You know, the master's tool, not dismantling the master's house.

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We have to be looking at ways we can grapple power away from the system so that it isn't my fault.

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And that can be invested. That can be in poetry. That can be an art that it doesn't have to be in politics.

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It's in whatever arena you feel that you are close to. But I mean,

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I asked a very heavy question and you gave an very short period of time one of the

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best answers I think I've had in the last year and having these conversations.

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Thank you so much for joining us today there. And I'm sure that our listeners will be looking at your work and certainly watching the lady of film.

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Thank you so much for your time today. Thank you for having me. Chip.