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Hello and welcome to the fifth episode of our Chameleon Platforming Authors' podcast.
And we're super happy to have Doctorow's undefiled here today with us.
Raisa has been part of Madea from the start of 2018 and has little I don't know whether she
appreciates quite how much she is a completely foundational pillar in everything we do.
I know I speak for front here when I say that I think every conundrum we've had in the last
three years with the production has always been saved by something that Rosa says or does.
So thank you very much. Raised for joining us today. Thank you for having me and for those kind words.
Let me tell our listeners a bit about you all.
So rose up, deputy director of liberal arts at King's College, where you teach in liberal arts and classics departments,
but you are, in fact a native New Yorker, as I'm sure I would dance can hear.
And you have to be a one from mostly college, one from Cambridge and then your M.A. mph to you from Princeton.
So you're very much being educated both here in the U.S. and you've published widely in Greek tragedy, which is a tragedy, which is your focus.
The Greek trilogy SRO is a book that we certainly have spoken about.
We were lucky enough to be a book crunch for. And you've also published twice last year with Greeks and Romans on the Latin American stage.
And you're currently writing, playing the chorus in Greek tragedy,
which is something that we're going to be talking about slightly later on in the podcast.
But I think the first question for me is classics to be.
What's what's the story with your getting in? Well, it's a funny old story.
I so yes, I have had I guess I've been educated on both sides of the Atlantic, but I my journey first began in the US.
I mean, I went to college or university. Not that long ago.
Let's just say. But I'm essentially like like many other students. I had no idea what I wanted to major in.
So in the U.S. colleges, universities are it's a four year degree and basically it's halfway through your second year that you declare a major.
But what that means is basically you're committing a certain proportion of at least half of your of your your modules,
your courses to be in that one subject. And in my first year, I mean, I arrived at Wellesley actually wanting to be a maths major.
Yeah, I saw French and maths, which I don't know at all.
What were your mind that well?
Well, my my mom's a maths teacher, so she has worked in the public school system, public state school system for those who were living in the city.
And she's a maths teacher. And, you know, like many other kids, I saw myself in, you know, the footsteps of my you know, my parents.
I saw myself I mean, I was very attracted by the world of education. I really believed in making a difference in people's lives.
And so and I was also very good at maths. I mean, maths.
I should they should say in the US without me. I did AP calculus in high school, which is a big deal.
No. And I did well. And I wanted I was just thinking that, you know, I wanted to continue my pursuit of mathematics.
That was natural maths. But in my first year at Wellesley, they were encouraging us to take their had these classes called first year seminars,
which were specifically for first year. And they had all kinds of different topics.
And there was one class that sort of, you know, called to me call.
And the name was Comedy Old, New and ever since.
And now I should tell you, I was just taking things like linear algebra and physics and all these other sort of hard core classes.
So I decided that, you know, I was going to college, I was going to university, and I was going to you know,
I was going to take advantage of, you know, the full sort of liberal arts curriculum.
And this one class said that we were gonna be watching Monty Python.
So I said, I am going to college or Rhodes University and I'm going to watch TV and get credit for it.
So we actually ended up not watching Monty Python, but instead we were reading all this stuff about old comedy,
you know, sort of ancient comedy, Aristophanes, FLOTUS and every and all these sort of comedic traditions ever since.
And it was amazing. I love I've always loved drama and sort of studying it properly.
I mean, I guess in high school we had done a bit of Shakespeare in a bit of this and that. But I really enjoyed it.
And so soon enough, I mean.
Well, you were encouraged to basically have one of the professors of your of your first year classes to become your first your mentor.
And so I sort of chose this one professor as someone who was in Wellesley Classics Department.
And soon enough I was, you know, convinced they were like they said, you know,
if you like this stuff in translation, you're going to love it in the original.
And soon enough, I was like found myself in an introductory ancient Greek and Greek class.
And now, you know, years later, here I am. That's quite the journey.
I mean, it's also always incredible as someone who very much want to choose that degree at the age of 17 and was committed to it.
Whatever happens to here of. More enlightened process. Across the pond, this.
What on earth you should be doing?
I'd say, you know, having to decide that until the age of 20 rather than at the age of 17, which makes a bit more sense.
You then went to do your your M.A. APHC after coming to Cambridge for for a quick couple of years.
Kings go to Cambridge. What did you sort of I mean what was that process. P.H. Day in Princeton.
What did you specialise in. Well, yes, I decided to continue with classics as I guess the short answer.
So I mean, I and I should I mean, I should probably add that as an undergraduate,
I also wavered between I mean, for a while I was a double major with maths and classics.
But I had I'd learnt both Greek and Latin at university, which put me at a disadvantage for graduate school.
So for a while, I was wavering between what kind of life I say disadvantage for graduate school.
Well, because I learnt. But, you know, so yes. Because the thing is, when you apply for a PTSD programme and classics and this is the case, I think,
in either here in the UK or in the US, you know, people really want to see how much background you have,
how much training you have in the ancient languages, because it's a core component of sort of any major subfield,
any major sort of engagement with the ancient world.
So I learnt both Greek and I, you know, this the other thing, too, that I mean, in this country, it is possible to learn.
I guess if you if you applied to do a classics B.A., I think in most cases you have to have a level and at least lots of Cambridge for your class.
I think it's the only major classical bar.
There are some exceptions where you can do a free, of course, for, you know, sort of the languages from scratch.
But in the US, I mean, they teach these classes regularly.
And there's little I think in my experience, I don't know if things have changed, but most of the people who were classics,
majors or at least classical civilisation majors learnt or encountered Greek and Latin at university for the first time.
And so but for a while, I was doing this crazy double major thing, and then the major in maths became a minor after I went to Greece.
Anyway, I was still flirting with this idea of, you know, continuing sort of my my educational journey into a surprising new world of classics.
And I was just advised that if I if I was thinking of graduate study, then I should really spend some time in England,
in Cambridge or Oxford to do to continue sort of with my pursuit of classics.
And so I came. I decided that Cambridge was a better place than Oxford back then.
I'm not going to comment anymore. So I came here and then I decided I liked it.
And so I decided I wanted to continue with it. But for me, I wanted to return back to the US because, again, the different systems, I mean, in the US.
When you are accepted into APHC programme, there's a built in M.A. degree and you don't have to declare your dissertation topic until much later.
There's there's a period basically in which you are still doing coursework and not necessarily in your subfield,
but still in all these different areas, you know, about the ancient world.
So for me,
it was it was important for me to continue sort of filling in gaps or places that things that I thought were gaps in my sort of classical education.
So, yeah. So I after two years in England, I went back to the U.S. and did my M.A. mph.
So that's it's basically me altogether. I think it was eleven years of higher education.
Right. So not a lot. I was in the library, much done after three and I'm very glad of that.
Good for you. I think I was just a little bit cool-headed.
I mean, what you've done with with your incredible numerous educational accolades is not just academia, but also a huge amount of theatre.
And as we mentioned, to start, you've just worked with Luis Alfaro, those of you who don't know who that is.
Absolutely. Go find out who that is. And then, you know, it. A big sort of proof that the work we're doing is not as isolated at all as as some,
I think assume it is thinking about classics in a diverse way and indeed Medair in a diverse way.
You just worked on on his book and you had a close link.
I can see from from from your bio you've had a close tie with theatre since since since Princeton itself.
I would love to hear about sort of this relationship that you have with with modern theatre in the
ancient world and obviously the work you were doing with pioneers like Alfaro and making it relevant.
Yeah, well, so as I said, I mean, one of the things that first drew me to the ancient world was drama.
Although in that case it was comedy. But I've always I've always loved theatre.
And I think sort of my I think my passion for the ancient world kind of increased
when I started properly studying Greek drama and Greek tragedy in particular.
And I should say, I mean, I love the ways in which I mean that there are multiple interpretations to Greek tragedy.
And you can approach it from all kinds of perspectives, from political, historical, psychological.
Me, there's all you know, there's all these ways in which you can approach it. But also, the story doesn't just end.
I mean, maybe, yes, it begins in antiquity, but it sort of continues and there are all these sort of modern adaptations.
So I've always been attracted and drawn by, you know, the multiple ways in which, you know,
sort of artists nowadays continue to kind of experiment or, you know, just put on different versions.
These plays. So I should say so, actually, before Prince and when I was at Cambridge, I there was an opportunity to take part in the.
They have a Greek play, a play that they that they perform in ancient Greek every three years.
And I've never acted before. Believe it or not, I've never acted before.
I. I always love watching, you know, and going to the theatre.
But there was an opportunity to take part in this play. And I auditioned for it and I ended up in the chorus.
Which meant it was basically I think we did it for five days.
I think we did two performances, two performances a day for five days, all in ancient Greek.
That's a very heavy programme. Yes. Yes. And it was the first week of term, of course, that meant that as soon as I started that term,
I was already weak already on the matter because everybody, you know, everybody saw the Greek playing.
They were also amazed. No, but, um. But what was really interesting about that, too, was, um, you know,
obviously the process started much earlier because we had to be trained in the chorus, especially in Greek metres.
We had all these sessions with folks like James Diggle and Anthony Bowen who would try to teach us how to pronounce and they know it all these metres.
And there were some people in the production who had no ancient Greek, but that was fine because someone actually transliterated all the Greek.
And we had all these recordings that we had all these ways of sort of living this language. And for me, it was an incredible experience.
I mean, since then, you know, wherever possible, I basically found, you know,
if there was an opportunity to get involved in a live production, I took it.
So when I was at Princeton, they were putting on a play.
This is I'm Lisa Peterson and Denis O'Hare. I think that they think they had that production of an alien, a one man Iliad.
And I think at that point they had premiered it elsewhere,
but they were taking it to the McCarter Theatre in Princeton and they were looking for someone to act as kind of like consultant.
I think it was officially a Greek language consultant because there was a couple of points in the play where,
you know, the guy was reciting some ancient Greek. So they were looking for someone to kind of be around and sort of advise on various things.
And people and departments sort of recommended me. I'm wondering why.
Why do they. For whatever reason, I was recommended.
I think it was you know, it is because I think when I was at Princeton also, I would I spoke about my experience on stage, you know, on the stage.
And I did do some recordings for them where I sort of recalled my all this extensive training in Greek choral metres.
But not just that. I think also before that, I should say, there was another project that Peter Mitnik organised.
This is he someone who is he's a he's at NYU and he runs the Equilar Theatre.
And he had this whole big grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities called Pageonce Stage.
And it was a way of involving scholars bringing scholars into the pub, into major public libraries,
sort of engaging with the general public and offering free books and running, you know, so the scholar would run these reading groups.
And then there was like a big performance that the Equilar Theatre did in each library anyway.
So there was this whole programme and I had been involved in this programme as the scholar for the Newark Public Library.
So I think it was after that experience that I was then recommended to become the language consultant
because I had already done some sort of public facing work involving sort of performances,
you know, the ancient world or just generally translating sort of aspects of antiquity to a general public.
So. So, yeah. So these were extra opportunities. I mean, I didn't really. And in fact, I mean nothing.
I was discouraged from doing them.
But it was I think there was an impression then that, you know, this kind of work was taking away from my my p d work.
Yeah. I think we might know this academic work. And for me, it was really such a joy.
Because the thing is, it's not just that it was it was a chance to think through.
For me, I mean,
intellectually thinking through various aspects of performance and thinking through the import of some of these texts to a general public.
I mean, that's always been I've always had these questions in my head.
And so to have a chance to work, you know, to work with people and to sort of translate some of this material.
And I'm obviously well, you know, wild, I guess, facilitating artist's vision to make this work more public facing.
It was great. So so I had all these experiences basically. And I should say that all these experiences also helped me.
And what I ended up moving to the.
There was a research fellowship that when that came up at UCL, they wanted someone to work specifically in Greek literature.
And they could work in any area of Greek literature. But they wanted that research fellow to work with the UCL classical play.
So it was a whole new research fellowship that came up. And there was this opportunity.
And for me, having had all these all these other experiences meant that when I mean,
I applied for that for that research fellowship and I ended up getting it.
And I think it was because I also had, in addition to obviously working on Greek drama,
working on all various aspects of Greek literature, I had some practical.
Real life experience sort of translating that, translating in a metaphorical way.
And some of it some of this work to the general public. So I guess I do have a longstanding track record of getting involved in performances and
thinking about how some of these plays and some of these texts from the ancient world,
how they might work or how they might be relevant to a public today.
And as I said, you know, you continue to do that very much. Up until last year.
But also what's so interesting about specifically the work with our FRB, you know, yourself,
you set on as an associate editor of Greek literature at the American Journal Philology.
But you also said on the editorial board for two Brazilian classics journals and obviously Alfaro's
work is very much based on the Chicken X experience in any adapts the place to think about it,
use them as a means to think about that. And that's obviously the trilogy that you just edited.
Your your your American and Hispanic identity is a core part of often how you're
interacting with both your academic life as the editor of these journals,
but also the theatre work that you're doing alongside that. Yes, I mean, I should say absolutely.
One of the joys I think of for me of sort of I guess I might make my academic
journey in the last few years has been really kind of expanding or thinking about,
again, the import of antiquity or the ways in which antiquity has, I guess.
I don't want to say influence, but I want to say, though,
the ways in which antiquity has kind of cropped up in all kinds of, let's say, unexpected places.
And for me, I mean, it's it's a little bit complicated because basically there are these ways in which Rick Roman antiquity has,
I think, informed, let's say Latin American national and sort of cultural structures.
Theatres is an easy way. I mean, there's a lot of places that in the 20th century or, you know,
sort of in more modern history when they're looking to sort of start a theatrical tradition.
And this is the case in lots of places across the world. They start thinking or, you know, they experiment with the original, with the Greeks.
And so I had been aware of various adaptations when I was a graduate student.
And even, yeah, even as an undergrad, I was aware of various sort of artistic and theatrical traditions in the Caribbean, in Latin America,
where people were experimenting with sort of Greek theatre, ancient Greek theatre in sort of radical and experimental ways.
And I've never really come across many studies of this kind of work.
And I've always wanted to kind of work, you know, so I've always wanted to sort of address and study these these plays,
especially from my perspective or from my training as a sort of it's a classical philologist,
as someone who is an expert and has research expertise in ancient drama.
I was always intrigued with sort of these sort of neglected, let's say, these plays and all these different areas.
And so I initially. So I mean now I mean, obviously, I've now worked with someone like these on Fatto,
but he's someone who's obviously working with Latin communities in the United States.
But my initial I guess I was initially attracted or sort of drawn to plays from Cuba, Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic.
And a lot of these sort of mid 20th century plays were sort of playwrights or doing something slightly different with these play.
They seem to be experimenting with these places in novel ways.
So just to give you an example, there is there's a play called Electric Origo,
which is a version of Sophocles is Elektra that premiered in Cuba in 1948,
in which it's it's the only play that I know, ancient or modern, in which version of Elektra in which Agamemnon is not dead.
Now, just think about it first. Again, you're like, what needs to be probably ask yourself, what is Elektra without Agamemnon's death like?
Who is she? And that's exactly what the play explores. Who is arrestees?
Arrestees never left because his dad never died. I mean, there's a love scene in the course of that play.
I mean, there isn't a guest house figure and the master has carried on with him.
But there is a real sense of in which Agamemnon, who is on stage in this play, he kind of kind of laments the fact that he's over lived.
This is sort of using a term that some of Emily Wilson has explored in her work.
Like what happens when, you know, tragic characters in a way have these sort of foundational narratives.
They have a script before them.
And this is the case also sort of in modern adaptations when people start sort of experimenting with these mythical narratives.
So what happens when you fundamentally sort of rewrite those roles and Agamemnon never died?
So so this is one of the many plays that I thought I had been aware of.
And as far as I knew, I mean, back then, I mean, these plays have been now there is some work on these plays now.
But I wanted to kind of include these plays and within these larger narratives about the afterlife of Greek drama,
which in my mind was just in general. And it still is. I mean, there have been stories that are about Western Europe.
And, you know, so when you think about like, you know, the art to modern laughter, like Greek drama, I mean, people in the 20th century,
people always talk about a Newey, you know, they talk about all these sort of, you know, adaptations in France and Germany and, you know, in Britain.
I mean, of course, in this country, there's there's a long history, tradition of production, say,
at the National Theatre and ways in which Greek drama has shaped sort of British theatrical tradition in modern times.
So I wanted to kind of I thought that we needed to look at these other areas and sort of kind of incorporate them,
basically incorporate these into these wider narratives about the alleged, you know, because the Greek drama is always sold as universal.
Right. But we're always telling the same old stories and about its afterlife and sort of tracing the same old paths,
you know, or the afterlife of Greek drama in the same old places. So I kind of wanted to see what, you know, Greek drama looked like in Cuba.
And then just just to point out to our viewers, you may not know, I mean, Greek.
In Cuba is certainly not a sort of abstract concept, a concept obviously is a tree on a media and it Madea in the mirror.
Yeah. The 1960 version, it was banned as soon as it was performed.
It was, you know, one of the first things performed after the Cuban revolution. It you know, it was used as a symbol of freedom.
Post the other. Correct. It was not. And it was the electoral one.
So the electoral law. OK. 1948, essentially when the Federalists it's an interesting if you know anyone who's interested in theatre listening to this,
you know, imagining a play where I get an electric play where Agamemnon is still alive, like you're like, wow, how interesting.
But but the people who saw it in 1940 in Cuba thought it was in fact what it was described by one critic as a gob of spit aimed at Olympus.
And people walked out. It was banned looking it.
I had to go to Argentina. He and he came back basically in 1958 when Fidel Castro and sort of the start of the Cuban revolution,
because that play then became a symbol for the Cuban revolution because of the play in which both arrestees and Elektra kill off their parents.
So it's about who you can think about symbolically, the younger generation, you know, sort of doing what with the old in that play really did spark,
you know, an interest in these and other theatrical adaptations which blended Hellenic and Cuban, of which at 3:00 a.m. there was one.
So he followed in the aftermath or he followed in the footsteps of Grenada.
So there's there again, so you can tell a really amazing story about the revolutionary Cuba through Greek tragedy.
And that, to me, is incredible. And it was a story that I think, you know, more people needed to hear.
So I started sort of dabbling with that. And yeah.
I mean, eventually I ended up sort of also looking into other parts in Latin America.
I mean, for me, it's always been very important to connect in the academic world can be very small.
And luckily, over the last few years, in a way,
there's been more travel and there's been a lot of opportunities to get to know colleagues from other from other countries.
And I. Brazil is a place, a place where there's a lot of classics happening.
Interesting. There's a lot of things happening there. And I got to know several colleagues through specific initially through Greek drama,
because there's a lot of also really fascinating adaptations of Greek drama happened. And that happened there.
There was also the some of them banned. There's a play of of Madea, actually.
We can talk about that later from. That was done by. It was Agostino level is called Lendell here, which is beyond the River Madea,
which is a play that was that came out of the black experimental theatre in Rio from the.
That was it was active from from the 1940s to the 1960s.
But that play basically took the Madea story and kind of plunked it into 17th century Brazil in the context of this,
you know, the transatlantic slave during the middle of someone who was anyway.
So. So there's all of that. So that's just another example of although in many ways and there will be a show out of the podcast just to everyone
listening about specifically Madea and her positioning within less in America and a fantastic history of using Greek drama,
because as we're hearing, you know, it's so integral in the story that we don't do it here.
So I just thought I'd put Panopto thank you for it. But just to say that essentially there is a lot of story.
There's a lot of sort of there's a lot of stories. There's a lot of sort of there's there's a lot of things to look at.
And so that led to collaboration with colleagues from Brazil.
So this is how I ended up on the editorial board of some of their journals, because it's very important,
again, to be aware sort of power relations, even in the academic world, and think about, you know.
Yeah, publication. Think about the ways disciplines are formed. So for me,
it's always been very important to be able to sort of have to be in dialogue with as many people as possible from as many places as possible.
And it's been a real joy to collaborate with folks from lots of places beyond the UK and the US.
I think that sense and obviously something that sort of we strive to do and I need to think about and talk about,
but specifically then looking at the effects and obviously seeing the strong political implications of these plays,
certainly of Alfaro's work, as I said, to anyone who looks into it.
There is no way to to avoid a deep political awareness of very much.
Twenty, twenty, twenty, twenty one.
I was talking to someone the other day thinking about the current crisis at the border is in a way, its own media problem,
though their their mothers on killing their children, they're sending them unaccompanied to the border.
And it's sort of an Majia context. We're seeing constantly how what is happening today is, is it hasn't changed in twenty six hundred years,
which is petrified to think about, but also interesting to give this context.
But thinking about obviously the happenings of the last year, but generally the way that you've been doing with with.
These dramas in this revolutionary way. What are your sort of feelings currently?
Not just about the positioning of the classical field in this global conversation.
Hopefully now about race and relations to both these stories and and and placement within society as a whole,
but also just outside of the academic world.
And seeing as I'm sure you have with the Alfaro case, the effect and the potential of these conversations outside.
But outside of just, you know, the lecture room, what have you been sort of.
It doesn't have to be a specific question. What is your your reaction to to what's been going on?
Both, I'm sure, negatively and positively. Well, I don't even know if I can answer that.
I mean, there's I have so many thoughts about everything. I mean. I mean,
are you asking what my thoughts are initially about sort of the way the world is
right now politically or the way the work of some of these sort of major issues,
I think contributed to some of these major issues going on, like migration?
And I mean I mean, that is very much interesting question, I think.
I think for us it's just interesting because I suppose obviously I've read your off our book and seeing
how deep the comments he's making all within the play on things like immigration and belonging.
I don't see, you know, very much in your book, and I'm sure you've been very connected to what's been happening.
I know your family obviously over there in the States over what's been happening in the last year.
It's a I don't know, I'm just sort of giving us space to talk about whatever you'd like to say.
I mean, I don't think the only thing I can offer is that I mean,
especially when I when I first started working on a final to me was incredibly energising to be working on some know unplayed, obviously.
Obviously, there are contemporary that are now but better addressing particular political issues that are that,
you know, that still resonate, that that are still paper-based essentially going on right now.
It was incredibly energising.
I'm not to say I mean, obviously there are ways in which I've always thought, you know, my work in classics has been important.
But I really felt that this is crucial.
I mean, he's, you know, sort of FARDELL is giving voice to all these people,
to these experiences and putting it in the heart of these sort of the American cultural imaginary.
And it's really powerful for him. You know, for him to be doing this, you know,
Mechanics' adaptation is a great tragedy and putting it on mainstream theatres and basically kind of illustrating the ways,
you know, these stories that are rarely ever told in earning, you know,
you can think of generally about sort of the North American cultural imaginary and the types
of stories that we always get to think and see or let's say about a place like Los Angeles,
like L.A. A lot of, you know, the place that he's working on are both of the Polish versions were all plays that are centred.
And Ed are about L.A. and he's telling the kinds of stories that you rarely ever get to see on sort of on television or,
you know, these films and Hollywood films. And they deal with the, you know, sort of the realities of many marginalised communities.
I mean, I grew up, you know, I'm from New York and I mean, I you know, I know New York.
I mean, let's just say the ethnic makeup, this, especially in terms of the Latin X population, is quite different.
Most people from the East Coast or you don't say a lot of places like New York and New York are from, you know, the core from the Caribbean.
There's a lot of Dominicans. There's Puerto Rican. There's Cubans.
And the particular the particulars are chicken X dimensioned that Lewis is exploring there.
There is there is a particularity about that experience in L.A., but there's a lot of it is quite universal to other Latin communities, you know,
bilingualism or the lack thereof or, you know, sort of cities being situated between two cultures,
between English and Spanish, between sort of all these generations, Catholicism.
There's all these things that are quite universal.
And so coming across those plays for me was I mean, obviously, they spoke to me and they spoke to the experience.
And I had also growing up in the U.S., I mean, I grew up in the Bronx.
And I mean, I you know, I know in a world where there's one place where I live, there's a lot of gang violence and crime.
And so sort of seeing that obviously on stage, but seeing that also through the lens of Greek tragedy was was really powerful for me.
And it's not just about putting those experiences or inject things, those experiences into the American cultural imaginary.
It's also about sort of challenging our perceptions of the ancient Greeks themselves.
Right. I mean, when we think about, you know, ancient Greek characters, I mean, this is one funny thing.
Students always talk about, oh, yes, we're talking to these royal families and these nobles and.
But it's interesting for us to think about. I guess how much value or how much, you know, sort of what.
Yeah. What identities we assign to these characters as well.
And sort of seeing a version of sort of elektro, you know, Electra living and, you know, anybody o seeing Medea as a seamstress.
I mean, that's also quite a powerful thing. I think so, yeah.
I mean, is working on the stuff just felt? I mean, again, it was energising because it felt important.
And obviously there are lots of ways of an academic that you can study, things like migration.
You can obviously study it, you know, through policy and sort of through more sort of straightforward manner.
But I do think there's something incredible about theatre and about being able to reach people, you know, diversity in multiple audiences,
not just Peno folks who are who know everything about Greek mythical narratives and who know the backstory of Oedipus the Madea,
but other people who don't as well. I mean, these stories also speak. And this is why I also really enjoy about working on Roussell on.
I mean, he's always made it clear that he is interested in reaching out to all kinds of communities and making all these things available to lots of,
you know, to a wide and diverse publics. And it's in the U.S., I think, and in the U.K., I mean, the Greeks are elite material.
If you think about a lot of theatrical traditions, Greek drama is part of an elite tradition.
And so, you know, democratising it or making it more widely available is something that I but I think it's important.
And I think it's it's something that, you know you know,
obviously theatre is at the moment because the cold it are suffering in lots of different ways.
But I just think it's always a good thing to think about, you know,
diversifying your public and making these stories and making theatre more accessible to as many people as possible.
Certainly something that, as you well know, we're trying to do.
And it's so refreshing for us to have someone obviously with this kind of experience and our team, but also to feel.
And we always, I think front and I try to be really careful in recognising this being part of what is such a big
tradition in such a powerful tradition of using even just if you look at tradition of media herself,
using have a Greek tragedy as a way to comment on things. Obviously with Chameleon and our adaptation together.
I mean, Razor is our script editor and our dramaturg and extremely key to talking about these things
within obviously our own experiences and within the experiences that we explore in our play.
It's sort of Darkspore. I know the podcast isn't about media, so I won't start rattling on, but it's just always so refreshing.
And I hope that people listening are sort of refreshed by the relevance and the power of that relevance of this kind of work,
not just in academic circles and not just in theatrical circles,
but really to tell the stories of people who who have a right to enjoy and be connected to and part of this world,
this universe and this incredible artistic space.
As far as anyone else in this, as those who have been so privileged just to hold onto it themselves for so long,
and it's so refreshing to hear to hear your work on it and hear how how relevant it is.
And just sitting here listening to you speak, it's such a joy to to be reminded of that as we work on it and to be reminded that it can have real life
implications and can really speak to people personally and share and share experiences through stage,
through the work, through through something that is somehow two and a half thousand years old that is relevant to someone's experience right now,
right here today. I agree with that. I think somehow it's been thirty five minutes.
Yeah, I know it's gone super quickly, but Rosa, we can't thank you enough for all the work that you do for us and the help that you give us.
And we're so glad to have your perspective on the show. And as I said, everyone listening.
Certainly watch this space that there's gonna be, if I can write, bracer into.
Yes. Another one or two podcasts.
There's going to be a really interesting discussion about really getting into the history of Latin America, South America and the classics,
and then more particularly, perhaps about the crossover between that and the American experience in place like that of our.
So do keep your eyes peeled for those in the next couple of months.
And Rosa, thank you so much for joining us today. Very welcome. Thank you for having me.