1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,830
The Platforming Autists podcast series is supported by torture's part of humanity's cultural programme.

2
00:00:04,830 --> 00:00:09,450
Hello and welcome to the fifth episode of our Chameleon Platforming Authors' podcast.

3
00:00:09,450 --> 00:00:14,460
And we're super happy to have Doctorow's undefiled here today with us.

4
00:00:14,460 --> 00:00:22,770
Raisa has been part of Madea from the start of 2018 and has little I don't know whether she

5
00:00:22,770 --> 00:00:27,480
appreciates quite how much she is a completely foundational pillar in everything we do.

6
00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:32,190
I know I speak for front here when I say that I think every conundrum we've had in the last

7
00:00:32,190 --> 00:00:37,440
three years with the production has always been saved by something that Rosa says or does.

8
00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:43,230
So thank you very much. Raised for joining us today. Thank you for having me and for those kind words.

9
00:00:43,230 --> 00:00:45,630
Let me tell our listeners a bit about you all.

10
00:00:45,630 --> 00:00:53,240
So rose up, deputy director of liberal arts at King's College, where you teach in liberal arts and classics departments,

11
00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:57,320
but you are, in fact a native New Yorker, as I'm sure I would dance can hear.

12
00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:04,350
And you have to be a one from mostly college, one from Cambridge and then your M.A. mph to you from Princeton.

13
00:01:04,350 --> 00:01:12,720
So you're very much being educated both here in the U.S. and you've published widely in Greek tragedy, which is a tragedy, which is your focus.

14
00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:17,370
The Greek trilogy SRO is a book that we certainly have spoken about.

15
00:01:17,370 --> 00:01:25,590
We were lucky enough to be a book crunch for. And you've also published twice last year with Greeks and Romans on the Latin American stage.

16
00:01:25,590 --> 00:01:28,650
And you're currently writing, playing the chorus in Greek tragedy,

17
00:01:28,650 --> 00:01:32,820
which is something that we're going to be talking about slightly later on in the podcast.

18
00:01:32,820 --> 00:01:36,870
But I think the first question for me is classics to be.

19
00:01:36,870 --> 00:01:42,330
What's what's the story with your getting in? Well, it's a funny old story.

20
00:01:42,330 --> 00:01:49,560
I so yes, I have had I guess I've been educated on both sides of the Atlantic, but I my journey first began in the US.

21
00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:54,450
I mean, I went to college or university. Not that long ago.

22
00:01:54,450 --> 00:02:00,000
Let's just say. But I'm essentially like like many other students. I had no idea what I wanted to major in.

23
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:08,830
So in the U.S. colleges, universities are it's a four year degree and basically it's halfway through your second year that you declare a major.

24
00:02:08,830 --> 00:02:15,570
But what that means is basically you're committing a certain proportion of at least half of your of your your modules,

25
00:02:15,570 --> 00:02:23,080
your courses to be in that one subject. And in my first year, I mean, I arrived at Wellesley actually wanting to be a maths major.

26
00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:27,090
Yeah, I saw French and maths, which I don't know at all.

27
00:02:27,090 --> 00:02:28,770
What were your mind that well?

28
00:02:28,770 --> 00:02:37,020
Well, my my mom's a maths teacher, so she has worked in the public school system, public state school system for those who were living in the city.

29
00:02:37,020 --> 00:02:42,960
And she's a maths teacher. And, you know, like many other kids, I saw myself in, you know, the footsteps of my you know, my parents.

30
00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:48,960
I saw myself I mean, I was very attracted by the world of education. I really believed in making a difference in people's lives.

31
00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,500
And so and I was also very good at maths. I mean, maths.

32
00:02:52,500 --> 00:02:59,700
I should they should say in the US without me. I did AP calculus in high school, which is a big deal.

33
00:02:59,700 --> 00:03:06,330
No. And I did well. And I wanted I was just thinking that, you know, I wanted to continue my pursuit of mathematics.

34
00:03:06,330 --> 00:03:14,790
That was natural maths. But in my first year at Wellesley, they were encouraging us to take their had these classes called first year seminars,

35
00:03:14,790 --> 00:03:19,080
which were specifically for first year. And they had all kinds of different topics.

36
00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:24,110
And there was one class that sort of, you know, called to me call.

37
00:03:24,110 --> 00:03:27,960
And the name was Comedy Old, New and ever since.

38
00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:33,390
And now I should tell you, I was just taking things like linear algebra and physics and all these other sort of hard core classes.

39
00:03:33,390 --> 00:03:39,150
So I decided that, you know, I was going to college, I was going to university, and I was going to you know,

40
00:03:39,150 --> 00:03:42,210
I was going to take advantage of, you know, the full sort of liberal arts curriculum.

41
00:03:42,210 --> 00:03:45,540
And this one class said that we were gonna be watching Monty Python.

42
00:03:45,540 --> 00:03:52,470
So I said, I am going to college or Rhodes University and I'm going to watch TV and get credit for it.

43
00:03:52,470 --> 00:03:59,970
So we actually ended up not watching Monty Python, but instead we were reading all this stuff about old comedy,

44
00:03:59,970 --> 00:04:06,870
you know, sort of ancient comedy, Aristophanes, FLOTUS and every and all these sort of comedic traditions ever since.

45
00:04:06,870 --> 00:04:13,080
And it was amazing. I love I've always loved drama and sort of studying it properly.

46
00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:18,270
I mean, I guess in high school we had done a bit of Shakespeare in a bit of this and that. But I really enjoyed it.

47
00:04:18,270 --> 00:04:20,230
And so soon enough, I mean.

48
00:04:20,230 --> 00:04:28,000
Well, you were encouraged to basically have one of the professors of your of your first year classes to become your first your mentor.

49
00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:32,370
And so I sort of chose this one professor as someone who was in Wellesley Classics Department.

50
00:04:32,370 --> 00:04:36,000
And soon enough I was, you know, convinced they were like they said, you know,

51
00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:41,490
if you like this stuff in translation, you're going to love it in the original.

52
00:04:41,490 --> 00:04:46,590
And soon enough, I was like found myself in an introductory ancient Greek and Greek class.

53
00:04:46,590 --> 00:04:51,330
And now, you know, years later, here I am. That's quite the journey.

54
00:04:51,330 --> 00:04:58,470
I mean, it's also always incredible as someone who very much want to choose that degree at the age of 17 and was committed to it.

55
00:04:58,470 --> 00:05:03,240
Whatever happens to here of. More enlightened process. Across the pond, this.

56
00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,400
What on earth you should be doing?

57
00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:11,640
I'd say, you know, having to decide that until the age of 20 rather than at the age of 17, which makes a bit more sense.

58
00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:17,640
You then went to do your your M.A. APHC after coming to Cambridge for for a quick couple of years.

59
00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:22,860
Kings go to Cambridge. What did you sort of I mean what was that process. P.H. Day in Princeton.

60
00:05:22,860 --> 00:05:30,150
What did you specialise in. Well, yes, I decided to continue with classics as I guess the short answer.

61
00:05:30,150 --> 00:05:33,240
So I mean, I and I should I mean, I should probably add that as an undergraduate,

62
00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:38,430
I also wavered between I mean, for a while I was a double major with maths and classics.

63
00:05:38,430 --> 00:05:43,740
But I had I'd learnt both Greek and Latin at university, which put me at a disadvantage for graduate school.

64
00:05:43,740 --> 00:05:48,300
So for a while, I was wavering between what kind of life I say disadvantage for graduate school.

65
00:05:48,300 --> 00:05:55,040
Well, because I learnt. But, you know, so yes. Because the thing is, when you apply for a PTSD programme and classics and this is the case, I think,

66
00:05:55,040 --> 00:06:01,170
in either here in the UK or in the US, you know, people really want to see how much background you have,

67
00:06:01,170 --> 00:06:06,570
how much training you have in the ancient languages, because it's a core component of sort of any major subfield,

68
00:06:06,570 --> 00:06:08,880
any major sort of engagement with the ancient world.

69
00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:17,200
So I learnt both Greek and I, you know, this the other thing, too, that I mean, in this country, it is possible to learn.

70
00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:24,150
I guess if you if you applied to do a classics B.A., I think in most cases you have to have a level and at least lots of Cambridge for your class.

71
00:06:24,150 --> 00:06:25,830
I think it's the only major classical bar.

72
00:06:25,830 --> 00:06:30,240
There are some exceptions where you can do a free, of course, for, you know, sort of the languages from scratch.

73
00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,960
But in the US, I mean, they teach these classes regularly.

74
00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:39,360
And there's little I think in my experience, I don't know if things have changed, but most of the people who were classics,

75
00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:46,230
majors or at least classical civilisation majors learnt or encountered Greek and Latin at university for the first time.

76
00:06:46,230 --> 00:06:53,970
And so but for a while, I was doing this crazy double major thing, and then the major in maths became a minor after I went to Greece.

77
00:06:53,970 --> 00:07:01,550
Anyway, I was still flirting with this idea of, you know, continuing sort of my my educational journey into a surprising new world of classics.

78
00:07:01,550 --> 00:07:07,250
And I was just advised that if I if I was thinking of graduate study, then I should really spend some time in England,

79
00:07:07,250 --> 00:07:11,190
in Cambridge or Oxford to do to continue sort of with my pursuit of classics.

80
00:07:11,190 --> 00:07:16,710
And so I came. I decided that Cambridge was a better place than Oxford back then.

81
00:07:16,710 --> 00:07:20,340
I'm not going to comment anymore. So I came here and then I decided I liked it.

82
00:07:20,340 --> 00:07:30,270
And so I decided I wanted to continue with it. But for me, I wanted to return back to the US because, again, the different systems, I mean, in the US.

83
00:07:30,270 --> 00:07:38,370
When you are accepted into APHC programme, there's a built in M.A. degree and you don't have to declare your dissertation topic until much later.

84
00:07:38,370 --> 00:07:44,460
There's there's a period basically in which you are still doing coursework and not necessarily in your subfield,

85
00:07:44,460 --> 00:07:48,810
but still in all these different areas, you know, about the ancient world.

86
00:07:48,810 --> 00:07:49,150
So for me,

87
00:07:49,150 --> 00:07:56,850
it was it was important for me to continue sort of filling in gaps or places that things that I thought were gaps in my sort of classical education.

88
00:07:56,850 --> 00:08:03,960
So, yeah. So I after two years in England, I went back to the U.S. and did my M.A. mph.

89
00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:08,190
So that's it's basically me altogether. I think it was eleven years of higher education.

90
00:08:08,190 --> 00:08:14,660
Right. So not a lot. I was in the library, much done after three and I'm very glad of that.

91
00:08:14,660 --> 00:08:18,660
Good for you. I think I was just a little bit cool-headed.

92
00:08:18,660 --> 00:08:27,360
I mean, what you've done with with your incredible numerous educational accolades is not just academia, but also a huge amount of theatre.

93
00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:33,960
And as we mentioned, to start, you've just worked with Luis Alfaro, those of you who don't know who that is.

94
00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:44,040
Absolutely. Go find out who that is. And then, you know, it. A big sort of proof that the work we're doing is not as isolated at all as as some,

95
00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:49,500
I think assume it is thinking about classics in a diverse way and indeed Medair in a diverse way.

96
00:08:49,500 --> 00:08:54,240
You just worked on on his book and you had a close link.

97
00:08:54,240 --> 00:09:00,720
I can see from from from your bio you've had a close tie with theatre since since since Princeton itself.

98
00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:06,000
I would love to hear about sort of this relationship that you have with with modern theatre in the

99
00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:11,640
ancient world and obviously the work you were doing with pioneers like Alfaro and making it relevant.

100
00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:16,290
Yeah, well, so as I said, I mean, one of the things that first drew me to the ancient world was drama.

101
00:09:16,290 --> 00:09:19,950
Although in that case it was comedy. But I've always I've always loved theatre.

102
00:09:19,950 --> 00:09:23,880
And I think sort of my I think my passion for the ancient world kind of increased

103
00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:29,170
when I started properly studying Greek drama and Greek tragedy in particular.

104
00:09:29,170 --> 00:09:33,630
And I should say, I mean, I love the ways in which I mean that there are multiple interpretations to Greek tragedy.

105
00:09:33,630 --> 00:09:38,520
And you can approach it from all kinds of perspectives, from political, historical, psychological.

106
00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:44,670
Me, there's all you know, there's all these ways in which you can approach it. But also, the story doesn't just end.

107
00:09:44,670 --> 00:09:49,620
I mean, maybe, yes, it begins in antiquity, but it sort of continues and there are all these sort of modern adaptations.

108
00:09:49,620 --> 00:09:54,000
So I've always been attracted and drawn by, you know, the multiple ways in which, you know,

109
00:09:54,000 --> 00:10:00,100
sort of artists nowadays continue to kind of experiment or, you know, just put on different versions.

110
00:10:00,100 --> 00:10:08,860
These plays. So I should say so, actually, before Prince and when I was at Cambridge, I there was an opportunity to take part in the.

111
00:10:08,860 --> 00:10:14,500
They have a Greek play, a play that they that they perform in ancient Greek every three years.

112
00:10:14,500 --> 00:10:18,820
And I've never acted before. Believe it or not, I've never acted before.

113
00:10:18,820 --> 00:10:24,070
I. I always love watching, you know, and going to the theatre.

114
00:10:24,070 --> 00:10:30,040
But there was an opportunity to take part in this play. And I auditioned for it and I ended up in the chorus.

115
00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,160
Which meant it was basically I think we did it for five days.

116
00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:38,720
I think we did two performances, two performances a day for five days, all in ancient Greek.

117
00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:45,700
That's a very heavy programme. Yes. Yes. And it was the first week of term, of course, that meant that as soon as I started that term,

118
00:10:45,700 --> 00:10:49,870
I was already weak already on the matter because everybody, you know, everybody saw the Greek playing.

119
00:10:49,870 --> 00:10:55,480
They were also amazed. No, but, um. But what was really interesting about that, too, was, um, you know,

120
00:10:55,480 --> 00:11:01,540
obviously the process started much earlier because we had to be trained in the chorus, especially in Greek metres.

121
00:11:01,540 --> 00:11:10,990
We had all these sessions with folks like James Diggle and Anthony Bowen who would try to teach us how to pronounce and they know it all these metres.

122
00:11:10,990 --> 00:11:18,240
And there were some people in the production who had no ancient Greek, but that was fine because someone actually transliterated all the Greek.

123
00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:24,380
And we had all these recordings that we had all these ways of sort of living this language. And for me, it was an incredible experience.

124
00:11:24,380 --> 00:11:27,340
I mean, since then, you know, wherever possible, I basically found, you know,

125
00:11:27,340 --> 00:11:31,330
if there was an opportunity to get involved in a live production, I took it.

126
00:11:31,330 --> 00:11:36,550
So when I was at Princeton, they were putting on a play.

127
00:11:36,550 --> 00:11:45,380
This is I'm Lisa Peterson and Denis O'Hare. I think that they think they had that production of an alien, a one man Iliad.

128
00:11:45,380 --> 00:11:47,470
And I think at that point they had premiered it elsewhere,

129
00:11:47,470 --> 00:11:54,280
but they were taking it to the McCarter Theatre in Princeton and they were looking for someone to act as kind of like consultant.

130
00:11:54,280 --> 00:12:00,290
I think it was officially a Greek language consultant because there was a couple of points in the play where,

131
00:12:00,290 --> 00:12:05,890
you know, the guy was reciting some ancient Greek. So they were looking for someone to kind of be around and sort of advise on various things.

132
00:12:05,890 --> 00:12:11,500
And people and departments sort of recommended me. I'm wondering why.

133
00:12:11,500 --> 00:12:13,720
Why do they. For whatever reason, I was recommended.

134
00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:20,440
I think it was you know, it is because I think when I was at Princeton also, I would I spoke about my experience on stage, you know, on the stage.

135
00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:28,490
And I did do some recordings for them where I sort of recalled my all this extensive training in Greek choral metres.

136
00:12:28,490 --> 00:12:35,190
But not just that. I think also before that, I should say, there was another project that Peter Mitnik organised.

137
00:12:35,190 --> 00:12:39,940
This is he someone who is he's a he's at NYU and he runs the Equilar Theatre.

138
00:12:39,940 --> 00:12:44,830
And he had this whole big grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities called Pageonce Stage.

139
00:12:44,830 --> 00:12:49,930
And it was a way of involving scholars bringing scholars into the pub, into major public libraries,

140
00:12:49,930 --> 00:12:57,400
sort of engaging with the general public and offering free books and running, you know, so the scholar would run these reading groups.

141
00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:02,500
And then there was like a big performance that the Equilar Theatre did in each library anyway.

142
00:13:02,500 --> 00:13:08,830
So there was this whole programme and I had been involved in this programme as the scholar for the Newark Public Library.

143
00:13:08,830 --> 00:13:13,540
So I think it was after that experience that I was then recommended to become the language consultant

144
00:13:13,540 --> 00:13:18,700
because I had already done some sort of public facing work involving sort of performances,

145
00:13:18,700 --> 00:13:25,740
you know, the ancient world or just generally translating sort of aspects of antiquity to a general public.

146
00:13:25,740 --> 00:13:31,090
So. So, yeah. So these were extra opportunities. I mean, I didn't really. And in fact, I mean nothing.

147
00:13:31,090 --> 00:13:32,350
I was discouraged from doing them.

148
00:13:32,350 --> 00:13:39,520
But it was I think there was an impression then that, you know, this kind of work was taking away from my my p d work.

149
00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:44,320
Yeah. I think we might know this academic work. And for me, it was really such a joy.

150
00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:48,640
Because the thing is, it's not just that it was it was a chance to think through.

151
00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:49,300
For me, I mean,

152
00:13:49,300 --> 00:13:55,480
intellectually thinking through various aspects of performance and thinking through the import of some of these texts to a general public.

153
00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,450
I mean, that's always been I've always had these questions in my head.

154
00:13:58,450 --> 00:14:05,320
And so to have a chance to work, you know, to work with people and to sort of translate some of this material.

155
00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:13,530
And I'm obviously well, you know, wild, I guess, facilitating artist's vision to make this work more public facing.

156
00:14:13,530 --> 00:14:21,530
It was great. So so I had all these experiences basically. And I should say that all these experiences also helped me.

157
00:14:21,530 --> 00:14:24,640
And what I ended up moving to the.

158
00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:33,140
There was a research fellowship that when that came up at UCL, they wanted someone to work specifically in Greek literature.

159
00:14:33,140 --> 00:14:40,060
And they could work in any area of Greek literature. But they wanted that research fellow to work with the UCL classical play.

160
00:14:40,060 --> 00:14:43,360
So it was a whole new research fellowship that came up. And there was this opportunity.

161
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:49,400
And for me, having had all these all these other experiences meant that when I mean,

162
00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,290
I applied for that for that research fellowship and I ended up getting it.

163
00:14:52,290 --> 00:14:56,080
And I think it was because I also had, in addition to obviously working on Greek drama,

164
00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,720
working on all various aspects of Greek literature, I had some practical.

165
00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:05,030
Real life experience sort of translating that, translating in a metaphorical way.

166
00:15:05,030 --> 00:15:13,430
And some of it some of this work to the general public. So I guess I do have a longstanding track record of getting involved in performances and

167
00:15:13,430 --> 00:15:18,500
thinking about how some of these plays and some of these texts from the ancient world,

168
00:15:18,500 --> 00:15:23,630
how they might work or how they might be relevant to a public today.

169
00:15:23,630 --> 00:15:28,130
And as I said, you know, you continue to do that very much. Up until last year.

170
00:15:28,130 --> 00:15:32,360
But also what's so interesting about specifically the work with our FRB, you know, yourself,

171
00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:38,450
you set on as an associate editor of Greek literature at the American Journal Philology.

172
00:15:38,450 --> 00:15:43,460
But you also said on the editorial board for two Brazilian classics journals and obviously Alfaro's

173
00:15:43,460 --> 00:15:50,800
work is very much based on the Chicken X experience in any adapts the place to think about it,

174
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:56,510
use them as a means to think about that. And that's obviously the trilogy that you just edited.

175
00:15:56,510 --> 00:16:01,310
Your your your American and Hispanic identity is a core part of often how you're

176
00:16:01,310 --> 00:16:05,450
interacting with both your academic life as the editor of these journals,

177
00:16:05,450 --> 00:16:12,340
but also the theatre work that you're doing alongside that. Yes, I mean, I should say absolutely.

178
00:16:12,340 --> 00:16:18,160
One of the joys I think of for me of sort of I guess I might make my academic

179
00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:23,440
journey in the last few years has been really kind of expanding or thinking about,

180
00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:29,820
again, the import of antiquity or the ways in which antiquity has, I guess.

181
00:16:29,820 --> 00:16:31,810
I don't want to say influence, but I want to say, though,

182
00:16:31,810 --> 00:16:37,750
the ways in which antiquity has kind of cropped up in all kinds of, let's say, unexpected places.

183
00:16:37,750 --> 00:16:47,440
And for me, I mean, it's it's a little bit complicated because basically there are these ways in which Rick Roman antiquity has,

184
00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:53,190
I think, informed, let's say Latin American national and sort of cultural structures.

185
00:16:53,190 --> 00:16:58,840
Theatres is an easy way. I mean, there's a lot of places that in the 20th century or, you know,

186
00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:03,820
sort of in more modern history when they're looking to sort of start a theatrical tradition.

187
00:17:03,820 --> 00:17:11,320
And this is the case in lots of places across the world. They start thinking or, you know, they experiment with the original, with the Greeks.

188
00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:18,790
And so I had been aware of various adaptations when I was a graduate student.

189
00:17:18,790 --> 00:17:28,150
And even, yeah, even as an undergrad, I was aware of various sort of artistic and theatrical traditions in the Caribbean, in Latin America,

190
00:17:28,150 --> 00:17:35,140
where people were experimenting with sort of Greek theatre, ancient Greek theatre in sort of radical and experimental ways.

191
00:17:35,140 --> 00:17:40,060
And I've never really come across many studies of this kind of work.

192
00:17:40,060 --> 00:17:46,390
And I've always wanted to kind of work, you know, so I've always wanted to sort of address and study these these plays,

193
00:17:46,390 --> 00:17:51,400
especially from my perspective or from my training as a sort of it's a classical philologist,

194
00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:56,260
as someone who is an expert and has research expertise in ancient drama.

195
00:17:56,260 --> 00:18:02,050
I was always intrigued with sort of these sort of neglected, let's say, these plays and all these different areas.

196
00:18:02,050 --> 00:18:06,250
And so I initially. So I mean now I mean, obviously, I've now worked with someone like these on Fatto,

197
00:18:06,250 --> 00:18:10,260
but he's someone who's obviously working with Latin communities in the United States.

198
00:18:10,260 --> 00:18:21,790
But my initial I guess I was initially attracted or sort of drawn to plays from Cuba, Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic.

199
00:18:21,790 --> 00:18:28,750
And a lot of these sort of mid 20th century plays were sort of playwrights or doing something slightly different with these play.

200
00:18:28,750 --> 00:18:32,560
They seem to be experimenting with these places in novel ways.

201
00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:37,330
So just to give you an example, there is there's a play called Electric Origo,

202
00:18:37,330 --> 00:18:43,930
which is a version of Sophocles is Elektra that premiered in Cuba in 1948,

203
00:18:43,930 --> 00:18:51,970
in which it's it's the only play that I know, ancient or modern, in which version of Elektra in which Agamemnon is not dead.

204
00:18:51,970 --> 00:18:59,920
Now, just think about it first. Again, you're like, what needs to be probably ask yourself, what is Elektra without Agamemnon's death like?

205
00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:03,790
Who is she? And that's exactly what the play explores. Who is arrestees?

206
00:19:03,790 --> 00:19:09,610
Arrestees never left because his dad never died. I mean, there's a love scene in the course of that play.

207
00:19:09,610 --> 00:19:12,850
I mean, there isn't a guest house figure and the master has carried on with him.

208
00:19:12,850 --> 00:19:20,410
But there is a real sense of in which Agamemnon, who is on stage in this play, he kind of kind of laments the fact that he's over lived.

209
00:19:20,410 --> 00:19:26,230
This is sort of using a term that some of Emily Wilson has explored in her work.

210
00:19:26,230 --> 00:19:31,690
Like what happens when, you know, tragic characters in a way have these sort of foundational narratives.

211
00:19:31,690 --> 00:19:34,180
They have a script before them.

212
00:19:34,180 --> 00:19:39,250
And this is the case also sort of in modern adaptations when people start sort of experimenting with these mythical narratives.

213
00:19:39,250 --> 00:19:45,840
So what happens when you fundamentally sort of rewrite those roles and Agamemnon never died?

214
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:50,440
So so this is one of the many plays that I thought I had been aware of.

215
00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:55,480
And as far as I knew, I mean, back then, I mean, these plays have been now there is some work on these plays now.

216
00:19:55,480 --> 00:20:01,630
But I wanted to kind of include these plays and within these larger narratives about the afterlife of Greek drama,

217
00:20:01,630 --> 00:20:08,590
which in my mind was just in general. And it still is. I mean, there have been stories that are about Western Europe.

218
00:20:08,590 --> 00:20:14,470
And, you know, so when you think about like, you know, the art to modern laughter, like Greek drama, I mean, people in the 20th century,

219
00:20:14,470 --> 00:20:22,540
people always talk about a Newey, you know, they talk about all these sort of, you know, adaptations in France and Germany and, you know, in Britain.

220
00:20:22,540 --> 00:20:28,600
I mean, of course, in this country, there's there's a long history, tradition of production, say,

221
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:35,830
at the National Theatre and ways in which Greek drama has shaped sort of British theatrical tradition in modern times.

222
00:20:35,830 --> 00:20:44,080
So I wanted to kind of I thought that we needed to look at these other areas and sort of kind of incorporate them,

223
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:50,940
basically incorporate these into these wider narratives about the alleged, you know, because the Greek drama is always sold as universal.

224
00:20:50,940 --> 00:20:57,670
Right. But we're always telling the same old stories and about its afterlife and sort of tracing the same old paths,

225
00:20:57,670 --> 00:21:05,110
you know, or the afterlife of Greek drama in the same old places. So I kind of wanted to see what, you know, Greek drama looked like in Cuba.

226
00:21:05,110 --> 00:21:09,440
And then just just to point out to our viewers, you may not know, I mean, Greek.

227
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:18,200
In Cuba is certainly not a sort of abstract concept, a concept obviously is a tree on a media and it Madea in the mirror.

228
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,470
Yeah. The 1960 version, it was banned as soon as it was performed.

229
00:21:22,470 --> 00:21:29,070
It was, you know, one of the first things performed after the Cuban revolution. It you know, it was used as a symbol of freedom.

230
00:21:29,070 --> 00:21:33,180
Post the other. Correct. It was not. And it was the electoral one.

231
00:21:33,180 --> 00:21:41,260
So the electoral law. OK. 1948, essentially when the Federalists it's an interesting if you know anyone who's interested in theatre listening to this,

232
00:21:41,260 --> 00:21:47,740
you know, imagining a play where I get an electric play where Agamemnon is still alive, like you're like, wow, how interesting.

233
00:21:47,740 --> 00:21:57,510
But but the people who saw it in 1940 in Cuba thought it was in fact what it was described by one critic as a gob of spit aimed at Olympus.

234
00:21:57,510 --> 00:22:00,710
And people walked out. It was banned looking it.

235
00:22:00,710 --> 00:22:09,210
I had to go to Argentina. He and he came back basically in 1958 when Fidel Castro and sort of the start of the Cuban revolution,

236
00:22:09,210 --> 00:22:17,730
because that play then became a symbol for the Cuban revolution because of the play in which both arrestees and Elektra kill off their parents.

237
00:22:17,730 --> 00:22:24,660
So it's about who you can think about symbolically, the younger generation, you know, sort of doing what with the old in that play really did spark,

238
00:22:24,660 --> 00:22:33,420
you know, an interest in these and other theatrical adaptations which blended Hellenic and Cuban, of which at 3:00 a.m. there was one.

239
00:22:33,420 --> 00:22:38,250
So he followed in the aftermath or he followed in the footsteps of Grenada.

240
00:22:38,250 --> 00:22:45,900
So there's there again, so you can tell a really amazing story about the revolutionary Cuba through Greek tragedy.

241
00:22:45,900 --> 00:22:50,640
And that, to me, is incredible. And it was a story that I think, you know, more people needed to hear.

242
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:55,210
So I started sort of dabbling with that. And yeah.

243
00:22:55,210 --> 00:22:59,970
I mean, eventually I ended up sort of also looking into other parts in Latin America.

244
00:22:59,970 --> 00:23:06,750
I mean, for me, it's always been very important to connect in the academic world can be very small.

245
00:23:06,750 --> 00:23:09,750
And luckily, over the last few years, in a way,

246
00:23:09,750 --> 00:23:17,040
there's been more travel and there's been a lot of opportunities to get to know colleagues from other from other countries.

247
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:22,760
And I. Brazil is a place, a place where there's a lot of classics happening.

248
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:28,860
Interesting. There's a lot of things happening there. And I got to know several colleagues through specific initially through Greek drama,

249
00:23:28,860 --> 00:23:34,270
because there's a lot of also really fascinating adaptations of Greek drama happened. And that happened there.

250
00:23:34,270 --> 00:23:41,070
There was also the some of them banned. There's a play of of Madea, actually.

251
00:23:41,070 --> 00:23:50,190
We can talk about that later from. That was done by. It was Agostino level is called Lendell here, which is beyond the River Madea,

252
00:23:50,190 --> 00:23:57,300
which is a play that was that came out of the black experimental theatre in Rio from the.

253
00:23:57,300 --> 00:24:00,210
That was it was active from from the 1940s to the 1960s.

254
00:24:00,210 --> 00:24:08,420
But that play basically took the Madea story and kind of plunked it into 17th century Brazil in the context of this,

255
00:24:08,420 --> 00:24:12,450
you know, the transatlantic slave during the middle of someone who was anyway.

256
00:24:12,450 --> 00:24:18,930
So. So there's all of that. So that's just another example of although in many ways and there will be a show out of the podcast just to everyone

257
00:24:18,930 --> 00:24:27,270
listening about specifically Madea and her positioning within less in America and a fantastic history of using Greek drama,

258
00:24:27,270 --> 00:24:31,080
because as we're hearing, you know, it's so integral in the story that we don't do it here.

259
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:36,030
So I just thought I'd put Panopto thank you for it. But just to say that essentially there is a lot of story.

260
00:24:36,030 --> 00:24:42,510
There's a lot of sort of there's a lot of stories. There's a lot of sort of there's there's a lot of things to look at.

261
00:24:42,510 --> 00:24:45,720
And so that led to collaboration with colleagues from Brazil.

262
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:50,190
So this is how I ended up on the editorial board of some of their journals, because it's very important,

263
00:24:50,190 --> 00:24:56,660
again, to be aware sort of power relations, even in the academic world, and think about, you know.

264
00:24:56,660 --> 00:24:59,730
Yeah, publication. Think about the ways disciplines are formed. So for me,

265
00:24:59,730 --> 00:25:06,930
it's always been very important to be able to sort of have to be in dialogue with as many people as possible from as many places as possible.

266
00:25:06,930 --> 00:25:14,580
And it's been a real joy to collaborate with folks from lots of places beyond the UK and the US.

267
00:25:14,580 --> 00:25:19,680
I think that sense and obviously something that sort of we strive to do and I need to think about and talk about,

268
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:27,300
but specifically then looking at the effects and obviously seeing the strong political implications of these plays,

269
00:25:27,300 --> 00:25:30,780
certainly of Alfaro's work, as I said, to anyone who looks into it.

270
00:25:30,780 --> 00:25:35,760
There is no way to to avoid a deep political awareness of very much.

271
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:37,830
Twenty, twenty, twenty, twenty one.

272
00:25:37,830 --> 00:25:44,160
I was talking to someone the other day thinking about the current crisis at the border is in a way, its own media problem,

273
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,660
though their their mothers on killing their children, they're sending them unaccompanied to the border.

274
00:25:48,660 --> 00:25:58,410
And it's sort of an Majia context. We're seeing constantly how what is happening today is, is it hasn't changed in twenty six hundred years,

275
00:25:58,410 --> 00:26:01,980
which is petrified to think about, but also interesting to give this context.

276
00:26:01,980 --> 00:26:09,070
But thinking about obviously the happenings of the last year, but generally the way that you've been doing with with.

277
00:26:09,070 --> 00:26:13,660
These dramas in this revolutionary way. What are your sort of feelings currently?

278
00:26:13,660 --> 00:26:18,220
Not just about the positioning of the classical field in this global conversation.

279
00:26:18,220 --> 00:26:26,380
Hopefully now about race and relations to both these stories and and and placement within society as a whole,

280
00:26:26,380 --> 00:26:29,110
but also just outside of the academic world.

281
00:26:29,110 --> 00:26:34,310
And seeing as I'm sure you have with the Alfaro case, the effect and the potential of these conversations outside.

282
00:26:34,310 --> 00:26:39,920
But outside of just, you know, the lecture room, what have you been sort of.

283
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,620
It doesn't have to be a specific question. What is your your reaction to to what's been going on?

284
00:26:44,620 --> 00:26:49,450
Both, I'm sure, negatively and positively. Well, I don't even know if I can answer that.

285
00:26:49,450 --> 00:26:52,480
I mean, there's I have so many thoughts about everything. I mean. I mean,

286
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,440
are you asking what my thoughts are initially about sort of the way the world is

287
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,820
right now politically or the way the work of some of these sort of major issues,

288
00:27:00,820 --> 00:27:05,260
I think contributed to some of these major issues going on, like migration?

289
00:27:05,260 --> 00:27:09,670
And I mean I mean, that is very much interesting question, I think.

290
00:27:09,670 --> 00:27:15,640
I think for us it's just interesting because I suppose obviously I've read your off our book and seeing

291
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:21,130
how deep the comments he's making all within the play on things like immigration and belonging.

292
00:27:21,130 --> 00:27:26,140
I don't see, you know, very much in your book, and I'm sure you've been very connected to what's been happening.

293
00:27:26,140 --> 00:27:31,060
I know your family obviously over there in the States over what's been happening in the last year.

294
00:27:31,060 --> 00:27:35,650
It's a I don't know, I'm just sort of giving us space to talk about whatever you'd like to say.

295
00:27:35,650 --> 00:27:39,250
I mean, I don't think the only thing I can offer is that I mean,

296
00:27:39,250 --> 00:27:46,530
especially when I when I first started working on a final to me was incredibly energising to be working on some know unplayed, obviously.

297
00:27:46,530 --> 00:27:53,480
Obviously, there are contemporary that are now but better addressing particular political issues that are that,

298
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,980
you know, that still resonate, that that are still paper-based essentially going on right now.

299
00:27:56,980 --> 00:27:58,840
It was incredibly energising.

300
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:04,320
I'm not to say I mean, obviously there are ways in which I've always thought, you know, my work in classics has been important.

301
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,380
But I really felt that this is crucial.

302
00:28:08,380 --> 00:28:11,830
I mean, he's, you know, sort of FARDELL is giving voice to all these people,

303
00:28:11,830 --> 00:28:17,110
to these experiences and putting it in the heart of these sort of the American cultural imaginary.

304
00:28:17,110 --> 00:28:20,810
And it's really powerful for him. You know, for him to be doing this, you know,

305
00:28:20,810 --> 00:28:28,270
Mechanics' adaptation is a great tragedy and putting it on mainstream theatres and basically kind of illustrating the ways,

306
00:28:28,270 --> 00:28:33,100
you know, these stories that are rarely ever told in earning, you know,

307
00:28:33,100 --> 00:28:37,600
you can think of generally about sort of the North American cultural imaginary and the types

308
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:42,080
of stories that we always get to think and see or let's say about a place like Los Angeles,

309
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:49,390
like L.A. A lot of, you know, the place that he's working on are both of the Polish versions were all plays that are centred.

310
00:28:49,390 --> 00:28:56,380
And Ed are about L.A. and he's telling the kinds of stories that you rarely ever get to see on sort of on television or,

311
00:28:56,380 --> 00:29:04,570
you know, these films and Hollywood films. And they deal with the, you know, sort of the realities of many marginalised communities.

312
00:29:04,570 --> 00:29:09,460
I mean, I grew up, you know, I'm from New York and I mean, I you know, I know New York.

313
00:29:09,460 --> 00:29:15,280
I mean, let's just say the ethnic makeup, this, especially in terms of the Latin X population, is quite different.

314
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:21,970
Most people from the East Coast or you don't say a lot of places like New York and New York are from, you know, the core from the Caribbean.

315
00:29:21,970 --> 00:29:26,650
There's a lot of Dominicans. There's Puerto Rican. There's Cubans.

316
00:29:26,650 --> 00:29:33,100
And the particular the particulars are chicken X dimensioned that Lewis is exploring there.

317
00:29:33,100 --> 00:29:41,560
There is there is a particularity about that experience in L.A., but there's a lot of it is quite universal to other Latin communities, you know,

318
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:49,240
bilingualism or the lack thereof or, you know, sort of cities being situated between two cultures,

319
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,560
between English and Spanish, between sort of all these generations, Catholicism.

320
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,410
There's all these things that are quite universal.

321
00:29:56,410 --> 00:30:00,970
And so coming across those plays for me was I mean, obviously, they spoke to me and they spoke to the experience.

322
00:30:00,970 --> 00:30:06,310
And I had also growing up in the U.S., I mean, I grew up in the Bronx.

323
00:30:06,310 --> 00:30:14,110
And I mean, I you know, I know in a world where there's one place where I live, there's a lot of gang violence and crime.

324
00:30:14,110 --> 00:30:25,270
And so sort of seeing that obviously on stage, but seeing that also through the lens of Greek tragedy was was really powerful for me.

325
00:30:25,270 --> 00:30:32,770
And it's not just about putting those experiences or inject things, those experiences into the American cultural imaginary.

326
00:30:32,770 --> 00:30:37,300
It's also about sort of challenging our perceptions of the ancient Greeks themselves.

327
00:30:37,300 --> 00:30:42,160
Right. I mean, when we think about, you know, ancient Greek characters, I mean, this is one funny thing.

328
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,660
Students always talk about, oh, yes, we're talking to these royal families and these nobles and.

329
00:30:46,660 --> 00:30:52,650
But it's interesting for us to think about. I guess how much value or how much, you know, sort of what.

330
00:30:52,650 --> 00:30:56,980
Yeah. What identities we assign to these characters as well.

331
00:30:56,980 --> 00:31:04,450
And sort of seeing a version of sort of elektro, you know, Electra living and, you know, anybody o seeing Medea as a seamstress.

332
00:31:04,450 --> 00:31:08,800
I mean, that's also quite a powerful thing. I think so, yeah.

333
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:16,270
I mean, is working on the stuff just felt? I mean, again, it was energising because it felt important.

334
00:31:16,270 --> 00:31:19,750
And obviously there are lots of ways of an academic that you can study, things like migration.

335
00:31:19,750 --> 00:31:23,680
You can obviously study it, you know, through policy and sort of through more sort of straightforward manner.

336
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:31,960
But I do think there's something incredible about theatre and about being able to reach people, you know, diversity in multiple audiences,

337
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:38,920
not just Peno folks who are who know everything about Greek mythical narratives and who know the backstory of Oedipus the Madea,

338
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:46,300
but other people who don't as well. I mean, these stories also speak. And this is why I also really enjoy about working on Roussell on.

339
00:31:46,300 --> 00:31:57,830
I mean, he's always made it clear that he is interested in reaching out to all kinds of communities and making all these things available to lots of,

340
00:31:57,830 --> 00:32:07,990
you know, to a wide and diverse publics. And it's in the U.S., I think, and in the U.K., I mean, the Greeks are elite material.

341
00:32:07,990 --> 00:32:13,390
If you think about a lot of theatrical traditions, Greek drama is part of an elite tradition.

342
00:32:13,390 --> 00:32:20,140
And so, you know, democratising it or making it more widely available is something that I but I think it's important.

343
00:32:20,140 --> 00:32:22,390
And I think it's it's something that, you know you know,

344
00:32:22,390 --> 00:32:27,040
obviously theatre is at the moment because the cold it are suffering in lots of different ways.

345
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:31,390
But I just think it's always a good thing to think about, you know,

346
00:32:31,390 --> 00:32:38,290
diversifying your public and making these stories and making theatre more accessible to as many people as possible.

347
00:32:38,290 --> 00:32:40,750
Certainly something that, as you well know, we're trying to do.

348
00:32:40,750 --> 00:32:48,340
And it's so refreshing for us to have someone obviously with this kind of experience and our team, but also to feel.

349
00:32:48,340 --> 00:32:54,790
And we always, I think front and I try to be really careful in recognising this being part of what is such a big

350
00:32:54,790 --> 00:33:00,080
tradition in such a powerful tradition of using even just if you look at tradition of media herself,

351
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:06,250
using have a Greek tragedy as a way to comment on things. Obviously with Chameleon and our adaptation together.

352
00:33:06,250 --> 00:33:11,860
I mean, Razor is our script editor and our dramaturg and extremely key to talking about these things

353
00:33:11,860 --> 00:33:16,470
within obviously our own experiences and within the experiences that we explore in our play.

354
00:33:16,470 --> 00:33:22,930
It's sort of Darkspore. I know the podcast isn't about media, so I won't start rattling on, but it's just always so refreshing.

355
00:33:22,930 --> 00:33:31,150
And I hope that people listening are sort of refreshed by the relevance and the power of that relevance of this kind of work,

356
00:33:31,150 --> 00:33:35,320
not just in academic circles and not just in theatrical circles,

357
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:44,770
but really to tell the stories of people who who have a right to enjoy and be connected to and part of this world,

358
00:33:44,770 --> 00:33:47,770
this universe and this incredible artistic space.

359
00:33:47,770 --> 00:33:53,400
As far as anyone else in this, as those who have been so privileged just to hold onto it themselves for so long,

360
00:33:53,400 --> 00:34:00,890
and it's so refreshing to hear to hear your work on it and hear how how relevant it is.

361
00:34:00,890 --> 00:34:08,050
And just sitting here listening to you speak, it's such a joy to to be reminded of that as we work on it and to be reminded that it can have real life

362
00:34:08,050 --> 00:34:15,370
implications and can really speak to people personally and share and share experiences through stage,

363
00:34:15,370 --> 00:34:22,510
through the work, through through something that is somehow two and a half thousand years old that is relevant to someone's experience right now,

364
00:34:22,510 --> 00:34:29,290
right here today. I agree with that. I think somehow it's been thirty five minutes.

365
00:34:29,290 --> 00:34:36,400
Yeah, I know it's gone super quickly, but Rosa, we can't thank you enough for all the work that you do for us and the help that you give us.

366
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:41,290
And we're so glad to have your perspective on the show. And as I said, everyone listening.

367
00:34:41,290 --> 00:34:45,400
Certainly watch this space that there's gonna be, if I can write, bracer into.

368
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:46,960
Yes. Another one or two podcasts.

369
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:58,270
There's going to be a really interesting discussion about really getting into the history of Latin America, South America and the classics,

370
00:34:58,270 --> 00:35:05,800
and then more particularly, perhaps about the crossover between that and the American experience in place like that of our.

371
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,940
So do keep your eyes peeled for those in the next couple of months.

372
00:35:09,940 --> 00:35:15,396
And Rosa, thank you so much for joining us today. Very welcome. Thank you for having me.