1 00:00:00,660 --> 00:00:08,200 Hello and welcome to the media film podcast series, and today we're excited and really glad to have Andy Marsh here with us. 2 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:12,690 Hi. Hello. And let's just give a bit of a bio about Andy. 3 00:00:12,690 --> 00:00:18,330 So Andy is a fourth year classics undergraduate at Oxford right now and has done an incredible amount of work and her time. 4 00:00:18,330 --> 00:00:23,640 Therefore, the university she is the founder of the Christian Cole Society consists of colour, 5 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:29,280 which is a really integral group in Oxford and has also generally worked in access and outreach across the university, 6 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:34,410 both in the classes faculty and Balliol College, and specifically to do with Balliol College. 7 00:00:34,410 --> 00:00:38,580 Last year she wrote Race and Discrimination Report, 8 00:00:38,580 --> 00:00:46,800 compiling the experiences of students of colour at Baylor College and accompanying that with a list of recommended 9 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:53,400 changes to the college to be sort of immediately implemented to create less of a hostile environment at the college. 10 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:57,570 And all of these were agreed on by the college. Incredible work there. 11 00:00:57,570 --> 00:01:04,890 And and they're being implemented sort of as we speak now. And she's very soon to just be completing her examinations. 12 00:01:04,890 --> 00:01:11,280 And then from September, she's going to be the deputy director of university access at Brumpton Mama Academy, 13 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:16,800 starting sort of her her future of working and access. 14 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:21,270 And thank you so much for joining us today, Andy. Thank you for having me. 15 00:01:21,270 --> 00:01:25,890 Let's just go back. I mean, I don't think there's any need to to to to say anything. 16 00:01:25,890 --> 00:01:33,270 But, you know, what is the problem with classics in race? Well, this is a very big question. 17 00:01:33,270 --> 00:01:37,680 And part of the reason it's such a big question is because this is a long term, 18 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:44,910 long ingrained problem that I won't say begins, but has a lot of a lot of its origins. 19 00:01:44,910 --> 00:01:52,710 In the 19th century, where Classics has its big revival, its people start to emulate the classics, they start to bring classics back. 20 00:01:52,710 --> 00:01:56,700 And often it's being used as a way to perpetuate empire. 21 00:01:56,700 --> 00:02:02,430 It's being used as a way to justify the atrocities that were done towards people in India, 22 00:02:02,430 --> 00:02:09,330 to justify the atrocities of slavery by using classical texts, classical art. 23 00:02:09,330 --> 00:02:23,490 And, you know, from that point, from that jump, then has these really intrinsic links with colonialism and imperialism that don't go on have not gone. 24 00:02:23,490 --> 00:02:31,830 Having that foundation for any subject is already going to be tough. We then have years and years of classics as sort of the privilege of the elite. 25 00:02:31,830 --> 00:02:35,070 It gets used as a subject that, you know, 26 00:02:35,070 --> 00:02:45,780 your posh white boys are studying in their schools and nobody else is becomes a gatekeeper to be able to pass specific exams to get into Cambridge. 27 00:02:45,780 --> 00:02:49,950 You have to be able to speak Latin. It's not actually that long ago, not that long ago. 28 00:02:49,950 --> 00:02:52,210 It's really not long ago. 29 00:02:52,210 --> 00:03:00,090 And the seventies, I think, is when they got rid of that, um, you know, Indian civil service had loads of questions about classics. 30 00:03:00,090 --> 00:03:05,850 You're fun. You're funnelled in from directly actually from Balliol College because of a man called Benjamin Jowett. 31 00:03:05,850 --> 00:03:08,550 He you know, that's why Balya was known as the Beeliar Raj. 32 00:03:08,550 --> 00:03:14,490 You have got all of this stuff that's like building this really, really big link between classics and colonialism. 33 00:03:14,490 --> 00:03:21,120 There were loads of books on this as well. This is like a very, very well researched thing that people do still debates, whether it's real or not. 34 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:27,660 There is a lot of research on this that already is going to create this hostile environment that makes it very, 35 00:03:27,660 --> 00:03:38,550 very difficult for people to break into if you exist outside of the sort of typical classicist that you would expect, i.e. posh white boys. 36 00:03:38,550 --> 00:03:46,050 And then recently the diversity with posh white women, which is sort of as far as plastic's has been able to go so far. 37 00:03:46,050 --> 00:03:52,530 A lot of that problem is also because of the stuff that you study within the subject is very, very well. 38 00:03:52,530 --> 00:03:56,460 Some of this is, of course, to do with what you want to survive. 39 00:03:56,460 --> 00:04:02,700 Then we have to think about why those texts survive, why those things are the things that have come back through to us. 40 00:04:02,700 --> 00:04:09,570 But it is a lot of time studying old white men through the lens of old white men. 41 00:04:09,570 --> 00:04:15,900 And that's not going to appeal to you know, I'm a young black woman. 42 00:04:15,900 --> 00:04:22,470 What can I learn from that? What can I get out of that? You know, I'm an anomaly in this subject. 43 00:04:22,470 --> 00:04:27,990 So cassocks has lots and lots of these layers of race problems all the way from how many of 44 00:04:27,990 --> 00:04:33,600 us do the subject through to what we're actually studying through to the discipline itself, 45 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:41,190 being like actively engaged in really racist colonial imperialist acts across the world. 46 00:04:41,190 --> 00:04:43,650 So there's a there's a lot here to unpack. 47 00:04:43,650 --> 00:04:50,460 And a major problem of this is that a lot of that is just not accepted or it's ignored or people love to have the blinkers or just 48 00:04:50,460 --> 00:04:57,000 think of classics as just the study of the ancient world in this bubble without thinking about the fact that history exists. 49 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,990 I don't know how. Tell your question. There's a lot. There's a lot there about what is wrong. 50 00:05:01,990 --> 00:05:06,240 I think you've well pointed out a lot of the issues in it and a much more concise way. 51 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,310 And then many of the people I've spoken to have been able to. 52 00:05:09,310 --> 00:05:16,840 But I think what you point out, which is which is I think probably the most important in effecting change, is that people do have the blinkers on. 53 00:05:16,840 --> 00:05:21,970 And what do you think the sort of the current state is for people accepting, at least in your experience, 54 00:05:21,970 --> 00:05:27,610 having done so much work in the UK, obviously between Oxbridge and particular about about sex and race, 55 00:05:27,610 --> 00:05:29,560 you know, where is the positioning, do you think, 56 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:36,100 of people and important people in faculties or in in the people sort of deciding what the discipline is? 57 00:05:36,100 --> 00:05:42,010 Is there a movement of accepting this issue or are we still stuck? 58 00:05:42,010 --> 00:05:47,740 I hate to say it. We're still stuck. I mean, I have been working so calls society. 59 00:05:47,740 --> 00:05:51,310 I started in my third year. I'm now halfway through my fourth year. 60 00:05:51,310 --> 00:06:01,270 We're still having the same conversations. We're still having the same arguments over, you know, we get a textbook on a reading list from a pro. 61 00:06:01,270 --> 00:06:07,840 I'd like a documented pro labour with some really grim views or some really grim descriptions 62 00:06:07,840 --> 00:06:12,550 that are in that you'll be reading a commentary and then suddenly it will be like, oh, yes, this dusky Negress. 63 00:06:12,550 --> 00:06:16,630 I didn't need to read that. And, you know, you raise any of these issues, 64 00:06:16,630 --> 00:06:25,930 you raised concerns about like what you're studying or being told that there is no Eastern stereotype in the Herodotus you're reading and you're like, 65 00:06:25,930 --> 00:06:33,730 I can see the stereotype right there. And you raise these issues and you get Goslee out of the faculty. 66 00:06:33,730 --> 00:06:39,780 I mean, it is absolutely ridiculous. I'm exhausted, frankly, 67 00:06:39,780 --> 00:06:45,460 trying to like we're still stuck in that stage of having to debate whether there is 68 00:06:45,460 --> 00:06:51,820 racism in the subjects when that work has been done like that research has been done. 69 00:06:51,820 --> 00:06:57,640 Go read a book and then let's talk about how we can make the situation better, 70 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:03,160 that I'm still having to sit there through faculty meetings, through things and say the things that you're saying, 71 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:11,500 the books that you are recommending, the things that the ideas about the ancient world and about classical civilisation and Western civilisation. 72 00:07:11,500 --> 00:07:21,280 Is this like natural inheritor? All of these things are really, really problematic that they just refuse to listen to. 73 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,930 And I've been portrayed and as I've been said in emails, 74 00:07:25,930 --> 00:07:35,980 is like one undergrad has complained about this thing or a small minority of students have complained and we're all there. 75 00:07:35,980 --> 00:07:41,680 There's a reason we're a small minority. There's not that many of us who are here. And you've just exposed yourselves there. 76 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,310 But also. But that doesn't mean that we should we shouldn't be listened to. 77 00:07:45,310 --> 00:07:49,300 We get written over told. But you must engage in the discourse. 78 00:07:49,300 --> 00:07:52,990 You must listen to everybody's points of view. You can't just not listen. 79 00:07:52,990 --> 00:07:58,150 And we're saying but we have been listening. We have been being forced to listen to this stuff and to read this stuff. 80 00:07:58,150 --> 00:08:02,200 And we're telling you we disagree. And here are some other things that you should maybe consider. 81 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:08,170 And we're being told that that's. No, no, no. You're not engaging. No, we we're not engaging in the way you want us to engage. 82 00:08:08,170 --> 00:08:17,320 And you have a problem with that. So, yeah, at the moment I've I've gone I don't want anything to do with classics. 83 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:28,810 I don't want to stay on in the classics. Well, because it just refuses to change or accept that it might have done something wrong. 84 00:08:28,810 --> 00:08:30,040 And how do you respond? I don't know. 85 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:37,480 Something I constantly had been doing doing work on sort of decolonising English curriculum is, you know, well, it's English. 86 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:43,210 It's about studying English. You know, these things aren't necessarily therefor going to be white. 87 00:08:43,210 --> 00:08:47,320 It's not relevant today. How much do you want us to you know, the common argument of. 88 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,790 Yeah, but this is and I'm sure you get the same thing. This is the world. This is Greece and Rome. 89 00:08:51,790 --> 00:08:57,160 Rome was fine. You know, these kind of questions. How do you respond to people are a bit like we're trying to you know, 90 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:03,490 people will go as far as to say we're trying to sort of force our narratives on on a subject which necessarily doesn't accommodate them. 91 00:09:03,490 --> 00:09:06,460 I heard that all the time. Yes. Sorry. 92 00:09:06,460 --> 00:09:13,240 Just to make another point, that ignoring the fact that England colonised a lot of the world and therefore a lot of the world is English speaking now. 93 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:17,020 So that was one of them is an interesting and interesting. 94 00:09:17,020 --> 00:09:22,840 That was exactly what I was going to say, that firstly, just on this English thing, 95 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:27,190 you forced us to speak English, that we shouldn't be speaking English right now. 96 00:09:27,190 --> 00:09:33,670 That makes absolutely no sense. The only reason I speak English is because my ancestors were taken from Africa to be your slaves. 97 00:09:33,670 --> 00:09:38,560 So I think we do have a stake in English speaking text. 98 00:09:38,560 --> 00:09:42,460 We absolutely do. The next thing is what is classics? 99 00:09:42,460 --> 00:09:45,190 We have to now think about what we're saying classics is. 100 00:09:45,190 --> 00:09:51,130 And there's some really interesting things about like what the term itself means actually comes from words, meaning things like the best. 101 00:09:51,130 --> 00:09:56,590 And what are we talking about here? A lot of people will tell you the classics is the study of the ancient world. 102 00:09:56,590 --> 00:09:59,590 Well, then if it is decided, well, then surely it should be. 103 00:09:59,590 --> 00:10:04,870 All of the world's not just two countries in the ancient world, we should be thinking about northern Africa, 104 00:10:04,870 --> 00:10:11,080 which we should be thinking about Asia, we should be thinking about ancient China, which we think about all of these different people. 105 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,470 But we're not we're only focussing on Greece and Rome. 106 00:10:14,470 --> 00:10:17,680 And even if you say Catholics should just be Greece and Rome, 107 00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:22,630 you can't forget that all of these areas in the Mediterranean are interacting with each other. 108 00:10:22,630 --> 00:10:29,440 They spent, you know, and from interacting, we mean from violence, colonisation all the way through to trade negotiation. 109 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:34,090 There is a whole load of stuff happening here. We see influence going both ways. 110 00:10:34,090 --> 00:10:37,480 We see lots of things where you have like portrayals in Egypt of Greek gods, 111 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:42,760 but with like Ram's horns so that you've got these this miscegenation of cultures that's happening. 112 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:47,170 You cannot study the ancient world and study only Greece and Rome without studying the 113 00:10:47,170 --> 00:10:52,210 people of colour who they also are seeing around them who are also engaging with. 114 00:10:52,210 --> 00:10:54,460 And we have this huge problem, of course, with Egypt, 115 00:10:54,460 --> 00:11:00,700 which comes up all the time because Egypt inherently goes against the arguments that groups of colour, 116 00:11:00,700 --> 00:11:06,760 cultures of colour can't be advanced if we want to use that term because it was. 117 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:13,150 And so what we find instead is people trying to associate it with whiteness, trying to say that all the Egyptians were Greek, 118 00:11:13,150 --> 00:11:18,550 trying to say that because it was colonised by Greece in whatever whatever year, 119 00:11:18,550 --> 00:11:25,180 that the importance there is is, is that rather than thinking about the fact that, no, 120 00:11:25,180 --> 00:11:31,150 these are still people of colour, even if there's lots of Greeks going over there, that mixed race, then. 121 00:11:31,150 --> 00:11:36,970 And I just think that, you know, whatever barriers we want to put on classics, 122 00:11:36,970 --> 00:11:42,580 we should think about those geographical barriers and those time barriers that we are putting on classics and why we might be putting those there, 123 00:11:42,580 --> 00:11:47,830 because a lot of the time they are there to sort of uphold this view of white supremacy. 124 00:11:47,830 --> 00:11:53,380 To be honest with you, when we put those in, even those are false. 125 00:11:53,380 --> 00:11:56,140 Even those are false. Even when we put in Greece and Rome, 126 00:11:56,140 --> 00:12:06,130 is these barriers like the connexions between we all know that the Ptolemaic dynasty is impure connexion just to Cleopatra with the Romans. 127 00:12:06,130 --> 00:12:11,410 Why are we not then studying what's going on in Egypt at the time? Why are we only studying what's going on in Rome? 128 00:12:11,410 --> 00:12:18,220 We can't I just don't understand how you can study history within this tiny little vacuum and do just a little plug there. 129 00:12:18,220 --> 00:12:22,390 Do go listen to our podcast on disrupting on how Egypt disrupts Samejima, 130 00:12:22,390 --> 00:12:27,070 because I think it is very well a lot of these questions, a lot of these copouts. 131 00:12:27,070 --> 00:12:30,970 I mean, it's exactly what they are is copouts and why why we should be engaging. 132 00:12:30,970 --> 00:12:34,370 But you certainly want someone who did engage and created the question because 133 00:12:34,370 --> 00:12:38,350 society classes of colour and that was really influential within the university, 134 00:12:38,350 --> 00:12:46,420 though only founded, as you say, just a couple of years ago to talk to me about about why you found that society and also the kind of the kind of work 135 00:12:46,420 --> 00:12:52,840 that that society does and the interesting sort of two step process you have that you that you've talked to me about. 136 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,510 Yeah. So I'm I'm very proud of this. I'm very proud. 137 00:12:55,510 --> 00:13:01,840 I was sort of I just finished my second year and I was working on the unique some school which does lots of 138 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:08,140 access work with or state school students and deprive students who want to have the grades to get into Oxbridge. 139 00:13:08,140 --> 00:13:12,520 But there might be other barriers that often economic barriers or socioeconomic barriers. 140 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:17,140 And some school that was on race and we were talking about it and that was the first 141 00:13:17,140 --> 00:13:24,190 time in my degree that I had come across anything vaguely related to race in Classic's. 142 00:13:24,190 --> 00:13:28,030 That was the first time I found out anything about the colonial links between classics. 143 00:13:28,030 --> 00:13:35,590 I'd been there two years already. You know, that was the first time I had ever thought about the fact that media, for example, 144 00:13:35,590 --> 00:13:43,450 could be really interesting for the diaspora in terms of identity and isolation and being transported away from your home. 145 00:13:43,450 --> 00:13:50,470 You know, all of these ideas I had never come across two years into my degree and I was talking to the then outreach officer and he said, look, 146 00:13:50,470 --> 00:13:58,210 we just got a Facebook group for the campus of the university that should be turned into an actual society, into something that doesn't. 147 00:13:58,210 --> 00:14:03,880 So I went away and made a mind map then and there I was like, this is what I foresee. 148 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:10,240 I would like to do something to make to make this happen, because how have I managed to get this far without knowing about this stuff? 149 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:18,220 This stuff is really fascinating. And I started the society then and then myself made made the Twitter. 150 00:14:18,220 --> 00:14:23,530 We go over a thousand followers within four days. So there is a real appetite for this stuff. 151 00:14:23,530 --> 00:14:27,250 This is not something that is just like a small or side project. 152 00:14:27,250 --> 00:14:31,540 This is something that people want and are interested in, obviously. 153 00:14:31,540 --> 00:14:37,900 And I had I sent out a call just because I thought it would be really cool to get some lectures. 154 00:14:37,900 --> 00:14:44,050 I don't know if I'll be able to find any academics who want to. We had so many that we had to schedule two for each session. 155 00:14:44,050 --> 00:14:48,670 We did three three talks in our first term. 156 00:14:48,670 --> 00:14:53,980 This is two months after setting up and had two academics to talk and I had to 157 00:14:53,980 --> 00:14:59,790 turn away something like twenty academics from around the world who were sending. 158 00:14:59,790 --> 00:15:06,630 CVS and I felt very underqualified these days, post docs saying, oh, 159 00:15:06,630 --> 00:15:12,540 we would love to speak, I'd love to speak for you guys, and it just rocketed from there. 160 00:15:12,540 --> 00:15:16,530 And we as I set this up, I went, I want this to be two different things. 161 00:15:16,530 --> 00:15:21,060 I want this to support classes of colour at the university. 162 00:15:21,060 --> 00:15:23,340 There are not that many of us at all. 163 00:15:23,340 --> 00:15:31,980 I want this to be something to support them and also to grow this network around the country and now actually the world of classes of colour, 164 00:15:31,980 --> 00:15:36,750 people within the field who are trying to study it because of these problems within the scholarship, 165 00:15:36,750 --> 00:15:40,860 as I've already talked about, you know, the history of Catholics as a discipline and like going against that. 166 00:15:40,860 --> 00:15:52,500 But also I wanted to bring some light to and to like so what's the word like focus on the voices that we don't hear, 167 00:15:52,500 --> 00:16:00,300 those marginalised voices of the ancient world that we do not hear about and bring those through and amplify them as well. 168 00:16:00,300 --> 00:16:06,060 So there's this sort of two step thing of thinking about the people of colour in the ancient world and making sure we don't forget about them, 169 00:16:06,060 --> 00:16:12,410 but also the people of colour now who are within the discipline or who could be within the discipline. 170 00:16:12,410 --> 00:16:18,120 And that's what the Christian call society does. And we've organised lectures and we do lectures. 171 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,160 We do seminars and talks. 172 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:26,460 I hand it over now and they've sort of brought in the new committee has been doing some really interesting stuff about colour in the ancient world, 173 00:16:26,460 --> 00:16:35,160 colour of skin, but also colour in art, linking all of these things. They've had discussions about how Hip-Hop can relate to lyric poetry. 174 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:40,350 There are so many different ways to approach this. We've been doing all the ways we can. 175 00:16:40,350 --> 00:16:46,350 We've also been doing things like we showcase what academics of colours, experiences as academics of colour, 176 00:16:46,350 --> 00:16:50,250 what that means, what that was made in terms of their experiences and faculties, 177 00:16:50,250 --> 00:16:53,340 the racism they've experienced, the difficulties, the barriers, 178 00:16:53,340 --> 00:16:58,620 but also letting people just talk about the stuff they're interested in and that they want to research. 179 00:16:58,620 --> 00:17:01,530 So we're not pigeonholed into only talking about race. 180 00:17:01,530 --> 00:17:06,630 If we don't want to, some of them will come and just be like, yeah, I'm going to talk about this particular tragedy. 181 00:17:06,630 --> 00:17:13,260 And we're like, go for it. That's amazing. So it's been really exciting to see it sort of grow and change. 182 00:17:13,260 --> 00:17:17,100 And I think that you the future, there's so much more that we can do. 183 00:17:17,100 --> 00:17:21,900 I hope that more we can do some more things, but socials and things to really, really build on these networks. 184 00:17:21,900 --> 00:17:31,260 But now I've got contacts across the world who are of colour, who we just can just have a chat about sort of these ancient wild things. 185 00:17:31,260 --> 00:17:35,640 And I wouldn't we wouldn't be able to do that if it wasn't for Christian society. 186 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:40,560 And yet I have first year or people coming day like, oh, my goodness, you know, how long has it been running? 187 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,860 And I say, I started it in my second year. You know, it's a year and a half old. 188 00:17:43,860 --> 00:17:48,180 It's a very, very, very young society for all it's done. 189 00:17:48,180 --> 00:17:52,980 And I find that the faculty hasn't been the most supportive with this. 190 00:17:52,980 --> 00:17:58,140 And I just think it's very interesting that me, as an undergrad on my own, 191 00:17:58,140 --> 00:18:03,030 was able to start this, get people in to talk, get us know and get our name out there. 192 00:18:03,030 --> 00:18:08,460 So the people are asking to speak for us. And I feel like we've done more as a society than the faculty has been. 193 00:18:08,460 --> 00:18:17,550 I don't know how many hundred years, but OK. I think as is always the case, as we proved with Madea originally and also as we continue to do now. 194 00:18:17,550 --> 00:18:22,140 But so maybe as soon as you create the space, it is always, always, always full. 195 00:18:22,140 --> 00:18:23,460 There is never an instance. 196 00:18:23,460 --> 00:18:28,950 I can I can remember in my own experience of speaking to so many people where they created a space for diverse people and then no one showed up. 197 00:18:28,950 --> 00:18:30,970 It's just not a thing. It never happened. 198 00:18:30,970 --> 00:18:37,980 And as you rightly point out, you know, you did it in one and a half years without resource, certainly not a wealth of resource. 199 00:18:37,980 --> 00:18:46,290 Some of these universities do have. And you have managed to you know, I've certainly seen some of these incredible, incredible tools. 200 00:18:46,290 --> 00:18:53,460 You've managed to to to line up an absolute wealth of individuals who are already qualified to talk about these things. 201 00:18:53,460 --> 00:18:58,450 And please do go follow them. The question, because society all of our links will be attached to the podcast. 202 00:18:58,450 --> 00:19:04,020 So make sure that you keep in touch with the work they're doing and perhaps think about sending the students out there listening to this. 203 00:19:04,020 --> 00:19:09,000 Think about how you can engage with a lot of the things that the kind of work that they're doing. 204 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:14,430 But as you pointed out just now, you know, you've managed to make a lot of change in a pretty short period of time. 205 00:19:14,430 --> 00:19:20,370 Why is it the classics outreach is not managing to make even even a tenth of that change? 206 00:19:20,370 --> 00:19:23,130 What is the problem with this success and outreach? 207 00:19:23,130 --> 00:19:29,280 Why is it not succeeding if there is such a wealth, people out there who can engage with this topic? 208 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:35,730 The first thing is going about something I've already said is accepting that there's a problem in the first place has been has been a major issue. 209 00:19:35,730 --> 00:19:39,150 If you do not accept that there's already a problem, then how on earth are we going to fix it? 210 00:19:39,150 --> 00:19:42,150 And there have been letters and things written. There have been lots of things. 211 00:19:42,150 --> 00:19:46,290 And they always get sort of swept under the rug or we get, again told to, you know, 212 00:19:46,290 --> 00:19:51,360 we must listen to all different sides of the viewpoints or or there isn't a problem. 213 00:19:51,360 --> 00:19:52,500 There isn't a race problem. 214 00:19:52,500 --> 00:19:59,580 As we all know from the report that just came out, this country is very, very slow to accept that there are problems in its institutions. 215 00:19:59,580 --> 00:20:06,420 Just to jump in there, for those in the US, you may not know, of course, story yet, so we're jumping across across the pond. 216 00:20:06,420 --> 00:20:13,800 Last week, this this being April, the U.K. government released a report stating that there was no evidence of 217 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:18,600 any institutional racism anywhere in the U.K. So just to put that in context, 218 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:25,740 this is 20, 21, nine months after one of the biggest race reckonings that we've ever had in our lifetimes for sure. 219 00:20:25,740 --> 00:20:34,170 And let's put that into context of just how extreme this denial as it is in the case of a couple of people pretending that racism isn't an issue. 220 00:20:34,170 --> 00:20:39,540 This is weirdly in a report denying institutional racism, the biggest institution in the UK, 221 00:20:39,540 --> 00:20:43,740 that being the government itself, denying that there is any evidence for institutional racism. 222 00:20:43,740 --> 00:20:48,090 Just to put that in context, for those who aren't so aware of the report, thank you. 223 00:20:48,090 --> 00:20:52,770 And I think that that really does put into the backdrop how how much we've got to fight here, 224 00:20:52,770 --> 00:20:57,660 how much there is left to do, because because this is the backdrop we're working on. 225 00:20:57,660 --> 00:21:08,730 And that is exactly how it works all the way through. So I guess that side to side things, we could actually think that actually could be accessed, 226 00:21:08,730 --> 00:21:14,100 things that we could actually try, because the problem is it's a levels problem. 227 00:21:14,100 --> 00:21:21,450 I think one thing that one of the reasons that access not which is of working is because of the content of the courses currently. 228 00:21:21,450 --> 00:21:27,030 And people do get that sidetracked a lot by curriculum discussions. And I think that's really important and very, very useful. 229 00:21:27,030 --> 00:21:30,870 And we should talk about them here. But we should also remember the curriculum is not the be all and end all. 230 00:21:30,870 --> 00:21:36,720 And what you change your curriculum that is not solving any problems necessarily, but it is one of the ways to do it. 231 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:43,950 The curriculum doesn't appeal if the curriculum does not appeal to a wide range, if actually not only doesn't appeal, 232 00:21:43,950 --> 00:21:48,960 but actively excludes by its content and by the kinds of things that you're going to have to come across 233 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:57,000 reading by the fact that you read about slavery without any any critical analysis of what that actually means, 234 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,760 without any discussion about, you know, 235 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:06,030 you'll be reading about these empires without any discussion of the fact that the British then used that to do their own empires. 236 00:22:06,030 --> 00:22:09,510 If you don't incorporate those kinds of things into the corpus and of course, 237 00:22:09,510 --> 00:22:15,960 it's not going to appeal to you know, a kid from London is not like any other London state. 238 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:21,300 Comprehensive is not going to be interested in reading some of these things. 239 00:22:21,300 --> 00:22:26,280 And I think that's really, really easy ways we can make this curriculum much more interesting. 240 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,790 I think they can focus on things like reception as soon as I talk to students 241 00:22:29,790 --> 00:22:33,480 on access courses about some of the reception work I do and what reception is, 242 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:39,990 you know, this idea of how we have how people later in time look back at the ancient world. 243 00:22:39,990 --> 00:22:46,530 They that they perk up, they perk up immediately and they go, oh, that makes a lot of sense because this is how I live. 244 00:22:46,530 --> 00:22:50,490 This is where my parents have come from. And that sounds a lot like what happens in this text. 245 00:22:50,490 --> 00:22:54,810 They can relate to it in a way that they couldn't with just the original. I'm not saying come the originals. 246 00:22:54,810 --> 00:23:00,060 I'm just saying we could add a lot more reception in as a real way to people to connect better with the courses. 247 00:23:00,060 --> 00:23:03,870 I think we need to be studying more people of colour. I think we need to be studying more women. 248 00:23:03,870 --> 00:23:09,630 Just one week on women, you know, in a whole term's worth of essays is ridiculous. 249 00:23:09,630 --> 00:23:14,010 There is a there is a lot that can be done to make the actual curriculum once you get to the 250 00:23:14,010 --> 00:23:19,080 university appeal to a 17 year old when they're looking through subjects that they want to study. 251 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:24,780 But that can also provide the academic basis that they might want to go into the study or to be interested. 252 00:23:24,780 --> 00:23:29,100 They're not it's not an either or. It's not a mutually exclusive thing. Both can be done. 253 00:23:29,100 --> 00:23:32,160 The other side, of course, is going to be lower down. It's going to be in schools. 254 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:39,450 We have the a major, major problem with classics outreach is that it is one of the worst state schools of private school ratios. 255 00:23:39,450 --> 00:23:45,600 In terms of students, I think a few years ago, something like it's thirty seven percent state school in Oxford, 256 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:51,330 that is which is ridiculous, when ninety three percent of the country is is state educated. 257 00:23:51,330 --> 00:23:51,810 And of course, 258 00:23:51,810 --> 00:23:59,070 that is because of a lot of reasons that most of it is to do with the fact that our education system doesn't have classical teaching in state schools. 259 00:23:59,070 --> 00:24:05,520 And of course, the people of colour, the majority of us are in states, states education because of these intersections between class and race, 260 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:10,620 which we do, of course, have to remember when we when we're talking about these things. 261 00:24:10,620 --> 00:24:15,000 But if we can get more classical education into state schools, 262 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:20,580 I think that there's much more of a chance of people then wanting to maybe go on and study it in the future, 263 00:24:20,580 --> 00:24:24,900 because how you might study subject you've never heard of. I hadn't heard of it until I was in sixth form. 264 00:24:24,900 --> 00:24:31,530 And I'm I'm now doing my degree when I talk about it back home, people have no clue what I'm studying. 265 00:24:31,530 --> 00:24:38,310 They do not understand. I think most of my family still don't know what I do. And that's partly because it isn't built into our education system. 266 00:24:38,310 --> 00:24:44,040 And I think there's a lot that universities could do with that, with going into schools, with sending students into schools to run sessions. 267 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:48,840 There is already a project that runs in Oxford like that, the literacy to Latin project. 268 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:55,890 And I worked on this and I went into a school in East Oxford and I taught a small Latin class once a week. 269 00:24:55,890 --> 00:25:01,530 And none of these students said they knew a bit about the Romans. They knew they existed, but they didn't know much at all. 270 00:25:01,530 --> 00:25:06,120 They learn Latin, they learnt a bit about the ancient world, and they were then saying, oh, this is really cool. 271 00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:09,470 Like maybe when I get older I might look at classics. They could never have done that. 272 00:25:09,470 --> 00:25:16,830 They didn't know what classics was. And if we can't reform the entire curriculum, there aren't going to be classics teachers across the country, 273 00:25:16,830 --> 00:25:20,790 then I think we should use the universities and the university students to 274 00:25:20,790 --> 00:25:26,640 really expand people's access to what classics is and what classics could be. 275 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,700 I think something really important in that last point as well is that, 276 00:25:29,700 --> 00:25:35,070 as we've appreciated more than ever during the pandemic, there is only so much a state school teacher can do. 277 00:25:35,070 --> 00:25:42,600 And if that very state school teacher doesn't have a classical background and knows as little about the classics as other students, 278 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:50,460 I think it's extremely important to note that therefore, in this instance, perhaps more than others, the burden does fall on universities. 279 00:25:50,460 --> 00:25:55,800 The burden does fall on those with the resources, because the amount of the importance, 280 00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:02,850 as you point out, of this being done at a sort of teen level 13 14 is extremely important. 281 00:26:02,850 --> 00:26:09,060 And yet if you're in a state school, state school like mine, where you know, you don't know a huge amount about classics, 282 00:26:09,060 --> 00:26:15,930 none of the teachers know a huge amount about classics, you're not going to be encouraging tens and tens of students to sign up. 283 00:26:15,930 --> 00:26:21,810 And you cannot expect to teach to bear that burden when also that teacher is bearing the burden of whatever else is going on in that school. 284 00:26:21,810 --> 00:26:27,030 And so the resources this is where the university disconnect of saying, well, it's not really my responsibility. 285 00:26:27,030 --> 00:26:30,150 And in many ways and I perhaps would agree with that in other subjects, 286 00:26:30,150 --> 00:26:34,110 maybe it isn't the university's responsibility to be dealing with pre GCSE students. 287 00:26:34,110 --> 00:26:35,430 The university has to do with itself. 288 00:26:35,430 --> 00:26:45,630 But if know wants to stay alive as a subject and that's the simple fact is that if Classic's wants to be taught in any serious way in 50 years time, 289 00:26:45,630 --> 00:26:51,420 this is an instance where it is only the interests of everyone to certainly everybody in classics. 290 00:26:51,420 --> 00:26:57,720 But I think really everyone in general to to to to to to engage and actively engage 291 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,950 with those younger students who and the sole reason they're not interested, 292 00:27:01,950 --> 00:27:05,730 the sole reason they're not interested is because they just don't don't know what that is. 293 00:27:05,730 --> 00:27:07,800 And I think what you point out there is the superimportant, 294 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:13,530 which is the second you tell them and we see that through books like Percy Jackson and The Lightning Thief, 295 00:27:13,530 --> 00:27:16,920 I read How to Train Your Dragon when a young kid. 296 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:21,450 And then when I saw old English on the Oxford on the Oxford, 297 00:27:21,450 --> 00:27:24,960 I studied English literature on the Oxford course, I was a bit like, oh, there's a connexion there. 298 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:30,810 And it's incredible how much these these young experiences do effect what you end up studying. 299 00:27:30,810 --> 00:27:37,110 And I think it's really important that we engage in that. Absolutely could not agree more. 300 00:27:37,110 --> 00:27:41,610 I think it's it's no coincidence that most of the people who had even heard of classics 301 00:27:41,610 --> 00:27:46,590 or who are now studying classics at some point read a book like Percy Jackson, 302 00:27:46,590 --> 00:27:53,090 which is a reception text. It's a text that is using the ancient world, but bringing it into a different sphere. 303 00:27:53,090 --> 00:27:57,600 Now, Percy Jackson itself, there are lots of problems with some of the things that it might say. 304 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:05,370 There are some elements of it that I don't personally agree with because of some issues with Catholics and Western civilisation. 305 00:28:05,370 --> 00:28:13,620 That aside, we could very easily harness the interest of a lot of students and through reception texts. 306 00:28:13,620 --> 00:28:18,630 I think that that is really something that we're missing out on currently. There are loads that are around. 307 00:28:18,630 --> 00:28:24,280 There are receptions of the classics done by Caribbean authors, by African authors, by Indian authors, 308 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:29,770 but by every single ethnicity I can think of, every single nationality I can think of. 309 00:28:29,770 --> 00:28:33,510 There are receptions done by those people receiving the classics. 310 00:28:33,510 --> 00:28:37,590 Of course, again, just like the fact that lots of countries across the world are English speaking, 311 00:28:37,590 --> 00:28:42,120 lots of them have links to classics because of empire and because of colonialism. 312 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:50,520 So they have so the people of those things have just as much of a link to classics as white counterparts in in Britain. 313 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:56,750 So I think that that's a really, really easy way for people to get interested in classics and to start to know. 314 00:28:56,750 --> 00:29:04,800 And I would love for lists of recommendations from the universities of classical reception, texts that schools could take up and say, 315 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:10,350 you know, give these students or you could give to an English teacher even to say, you know, 316 00:29:10,350 --> 00:29:16,200 if you've got students who are interested, this could be a really good basis for starting out, 317 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:25,770 having a bit of an idea about the ancient world, because as a teenager, the only knowledge I had of the Greeks was from Percy Jackson. 318 00:29:25,770 --> 00:29:28,770 And it would be fabulous if I could have used that. 319 00:29:28,770 --> 00:29:35,220 But then also gone on to read something about, I don't know, some some Caribbean poetry about Medusa, 320 00:29:35,220 --> 00:29:40,530 which I've now come across, which is absolutely beautiful and incredible and relates to me as a Jamaican woman. 321 00:29:40,530 --> 00:29:46,230 Now, I think that would be fabulous to sort of bring into the schools, show the young people that it is out there. 322 00:29:46,230 --> 00:29:51,090 It absolutely is. And as you've already said, and I think it's really important, 323 00:29:51,090 --> 00:29:56,550 we shouldn't be surprised about young people being interested in classics, young people of colour, young working class people. 324 00:29:56,550 --> 00:30:05,120 We shouldn't be surprised by that. The surprise is. Not about the interest, it's not about like even any aptitude for it or ability in the subject, 325 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:09,380 people of colour have been studying this subject for hundreds of years. 326 00:30:09,380 --> 00:30:15,350 The surprise is all about that, and it's about access to the things that is the problem. 327 00:30:15,350 --> 00:30:22,490 These people aren't interested, not because they aren't interested or they're apathetic or any biological reason, which I've also heard. 328 00:30:22,490 --> 00:30:31,850 I've also heard is as a reason. Yes, but because they have been excluded from the facilities or the institutions that can teach them those, 329 00:30:31,850 --> 00:30:40,360 as soon as you break those institutions down, the accessibility that people are more than interested in studying these things. 330 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:46,420 I think that what we've just done is pointed out a way forward, perhaps a positive way to start, 331 00:30:46,420 --> 00:30:56,460 including students and certainly young students of colour in this whole conversation, can you perhaps think of do you have any idea recommend? 332 00:30:56,460 --> 00:31:02,920 I mean, the answer is very well, maybe no. But do you have any sort of other recommendations of things that that people can be doing, 333 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,310 whether that be institutions or individuals, to to start bringing people? 334 00:31:06,310 --> 00:31:12,910 And this is I think this is a one one, I'm sure many brilliant ideas of how to it's something that I can imagine would have appealed to me 335 00:31:12,910 --> 00:31:17,860 as somebody who never dreamed to study classics and yet is sort of currently making a career in it. 336 00:31:17,860 --> 00:31:24,400 But what is you know, do you have any sort of other more positive thoughts about about what could be done that that will work? 337 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:32,710 Absolutely. I think that we really should utilise the fact that so much has gone online recently and that schools and 338 00:31:32,710 --> 00:31:36,140 counsellors have been trying to make sure that students have Internet access and access to computers. 339 00:31:36,140 --> 00:31:39,820 Of course, that's that's another problem that the pandemic has thrown up. 340 00:31:39,820 --> 00:31:48,640 But because we are in this coronavirus pandemic, so much more is available online, online lectures, which are directed at year 12, 341 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:54,490 yet that teams that can be accessed by hundreds more students than a normal lecture theatre may have been able to hold. 342 00:31:54,490 --> 00:31:59,980 You can have as many people as you call or a team school as you need to. 343 00:31:59,980 --> 00:32:03,340 It's so much easier to do those kinds of things. 344 00:32:03,340 --> 00:32:08,500 I think that we should be thinking about our curriculum and our extracurricular super curriculum. 345 00:32:08,500 --> 00:32:15,100 Actually, they say in the access world of super curricular activities as more than just reading a book, there are lots and lots of things. 346 00:32:15,100 --> 00:32:17,710 I mean, all the stuff you're doing with media, I mean, 347 00:32:17,710 --> 00:32:24,430 that is that's already an immediate and immediate way for students to get involved in this kind of thing. 348 00:32:24,430 --> 00:32:30,280 Any kinds of podcasts, any kinds of students talking about their experiences of studying classics. 349 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:34,150 It's all over YouTube, it's all over all of these places. 350 00:32:34,150 --> 00:32:39,400 And I think as soon as you come across those things and a lot of people in the classics world, you know, your own classics or whatever, 351 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:44,620 they get posted there, look out for them, how to search for them and then send them off and use word of mouth, 352 00:32:44,620 --> 00:32:49,390 send them to teacher friends, send them on to students, emails, schools, make you know, 353 00:32:49,390 --> 00:32:55,390 if you've got time within a faculty, it'll be great to make a list of alternative resources that don't cost anything. 354 00:32:55,390 --> 00:33:03,160 A lot of these are free. A lot of these don't require resources like books which state schools like my books is a big problem. 355 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:10,150 You can just send these round and people can have much easier access to the stuff that, again, as I say, is out there. 356 00:33:10,150 --> 00:33:13,690 It's just about bringing it to the people. And just a note on that. 357 00:33:13,690 --> 00:33:19,780 And obviously, the medical industry needs to be freely accessible. There can be no paywall, there can be no limitation. 358 00:33:19,780 --> 00:33:26,230 Obviously, Internet poverty is something that both in the states, in the UK has been really, really laid bare this last last year. 359 00:33:26,230 --> 00:33:29,860 And it is an issue that needs to be tackled. Certainly on a governmental level. There is nothing else. 360 00:33:29,860 --> 00:33:37,510 But again, make institutional change with that. But all of these resources that are being made available need to be made freely 361 00:33:37,510 --> 00:33:41,000 available to the students who really don't have any other means to get them. 362 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:42,280 And that is what is super important. 363 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:50,080 We cannot be putting even even with with schemes, some fantastic school schemes and things to get people involved in subjects like this. 364 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:54,850 They will require some kind of payment. And unless they're coming with maths bursary schemes, 365 00:33:54,850 --> 00:34:01,270 they cannot they cannot we cannot make these things subject to economic boundaries because as we all know, 366 00:34:01,270 --> 00:34:05,450 there's economic boundaries always, always, always drastically affect people of colour much more, 367 00:34:05,450 --> 00:34:07,240 which is something that I think is important to point out. 368 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:13,720 And hopefully and I know we've sort of discussed this hopefully as much as the hostile environment continues, 369 00:34:13,720 --> 00:34:20,980 we also have seen in the last year perhaps the biggest space for this change, for this change to happen. 370 00:34:20,980 --> 00:34:23,200 I mean, this very existence, the existence of our planet, 371 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:30,220 how many universities and things have signed up to this very podcast series is hopefully an example of of that. 372 00:34:30,220 --> 00:34:36,400 Yeah. And I hope that people have been listening over the past year to all of the people who have come forward. 373 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:44,500 I think this has been a real surge over the past year, especially since George Floyd last year, of everybody saying enough is enough. 374 00:34:44,500 --> 00:34:50,290 We have absolutely had enough. Again, we are all knackered and we've all been putting so much in. 375 00:34:50,290 --> 00:34:57,340 And I hope people have been really listening to some of these things because a lot of people we're bringing forward ideas as well, 376 00:34:57,340 --> 00:35:04,380 solutions for change, ways that things can be improved as well as flagging the major, major problems. 377 00:35:04,380 --> 00:35:09,700 So, as you say, yeah, there is a real voice now. There's a real space now for people to be heard. 378 00:35:09,700 --> 00:35:15,970 And I hope that we actually are being heard right now as we are speaking a lot louder than we have for a while. 379 00:35:15,970 --> 00:35:21,400 I also hope that sort of people will take from this that, yes, we do need to target the schools. 380 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:26,440 We do need to increase our diversity. We need to increase of our numbers, our inclusion here. 381 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:31,600 And we also need to remember that access doesn't stop once you get the students in. 382 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:39,910 Access also should be continuing throughout while the students are there making sure that that's that the space is prepared for students who are. 383 00:35:39,910 --> 00:35:44,650 Not from typical Catholics backgrounds to be supported while they while they are at the university. 384 00:35:44,650 --> 00:35:52,750 And that's, I think another is another stage of things that we need to be really thinking about is our language courses are history courses. 385 00:35:52,750 --> 00:35:58,420 How many assumptions are being made about people's prior knowledge before when you go into sort of teaching? 386 00:35:58,420 --> 00:36:04,360 Cos I don't know how many sessions I went into and when I wouldn't know that name your classics teacher and classics teacher 387 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:10,480 where you know or you could borrow this book from your classes department even if schools had a classics department. 388 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:15,280 So there are there are so many things that we can do to get more students in, 389 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:23,440 but then also to make sure that that place is an OK place for students to not only exist within five. 390 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:30,520 That is an incredible point. And I think this has been a really I think a really productive half an hour session. 391 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:34,360 Discussing is crazy how much we've managed to get in then. 392 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:40,420 And thank you so much not only for obviously speaking, but to being so honest about both your own experiences in the work that needs to be done. 393 00:36:40,420 --> 00:36:46,290 And I think that what's refreshing from you and from so many people that we've been speaking to through this podcast series, 394 00:36:46,290 --> 00:36:51,910 it's so refreshing to see that there are changes that can be implemented tomorrow. 395 00:36:51,910 --> 00:36:55,900 All we need is the right leadership of people to make those changes. 396 00:36:55,900 --> 00:37:02,260 And I think that the more and more it's proven to be practical and doable and something that that that not only should be done, 397 00:37:02,260 --> 00:37:06,730 but just absolutely needs to be done. And the more I think that we'll be seeing those changes. 398 00:37:06,730 --> 00:37:10,610 Thank you so much for joining us today, Andy. Thank you so much for having me. 399 00:37:10,610 --> 00:37:11,440 This is great. 400 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:17,767 And thank you so much, everyone, everyone listening in to check out the other other podcast in the series and obviously check out the media film.