1 00:00:00,330 --> 00:00:05,730 Thank you very much for coming. This is wonderful, especially to see this turnout in week for you. 2 00:00:05,730 --> 00:00:16,740 Thank you. I really intensified and this is a win for many of you know, the first official event of the re-election performance network. 3 00:00:16,740 --> 00:00:25,520 And so snipers could be enemies of the system. And I think some of the others are here and reimagine performance is a network. 4 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:33,240 And essentially it's a virtual and literal gathering space for people who in theatre performance. 5 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:39,440 What about the psychology of opposition or somewhere in between? 6 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:44,640 Suppose we're here in this university doing a favour for this department, 7 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:53,340 but there are so many different possibilities for performance work and there is a space to a lot of interesting conversations, 8 00:00:53,340 --> 00:00:58,080 hopefully with scholars and practitioners joined together about knowledge. 9 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:02,460 And if you know what I mean, unless you're more than welcome, give me your email address. 10 00:01:02,460 --> 00:01:08,770 The AM presuming if you're here, that's probably far. You've come to understand how. 11 00:01:08,770 --> 00:01:14,250 So this is sort of moving conversations with the attorney tonight. 12 00:01:14,250 --> 00:01:23,010 And to give you a rough idea of what the events will look like, we are going to show you throughout the conversation some clips of. 13 00:01:23,010 --> 00:01:27,480 It's true. It's true. It's true. Again, I've never really seen it. 14 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:32,940 But for those of you who have come forward to support, it is a really interesting point that we want to talk about. 15 00:01:32,940 --> 00:01:39,360 And content. Morning. Absolutely. Long discussion of sexual assault, sexual harassment. 16 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:49,650 Will that be conversation with Foley about but at the end of this piece, or is he willing to do some of your questions very, 17 00:01:49,650 --> 00:02:00,710 very disciplined and make sure that we need to be absolutely delighted to be here today, really, really a social conservative company. 18 00:02:00,710 --> 00:02:09,760 And I'm going to let Billy and Alex introduce themselves to the company, probably a bit less awkward for all of us if we just hear them. 19 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:15,970 But he said. All right, fine, 20 00:02:15,970 --> 00:02:26,730 but I'm the director and co-writer and I'm one of the pilots and co-writer of the story 21 00:02:26,730 --> 00:02:37,470 and our company Great is and it's me and one of the guys we made primarily documentary. 22 00:02:37,470 --> 00:02:42,780 And so we cannot say documentary anything because a lot of the way we work, 23 00:02:42,780 --> 00:02:52,830 we incorporate devising process alongside and documenting the debate and transcript and other stuff is going on. 24 00:02:52,830 --> 00:03:01,320 And we tend to get the stories from either the recent or distant past, say, about the times we're living in. 25 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:11,650 And so occasionally, although is a bit more contemporary and definitely with this show, we were looking to find something historical not to speak to. 26 00:03:11,650 --> 00:03:22,770 Anything else? And I think we're always interested in playing with truth and dealing with quite serious issues, but also trying to use humour. 27 00:03:22,770 --> 00:03:29,940 I think that would be but that's just a small of. 28 00:03:29,940 --> 00:03:35,460 Thank you. So do you want to let the next clip speak for itself or do you like to do it? 29 00:03:35,460 --> 00:03:40,770 What is it? It's true. It's true. It's true for those of who haven't had the joy of watching the show. 30 00:03:40,770 --> 00:03:42,750 So I haven't seen it straight, 31 00:03:42,750 --> 00:03:56,130 straight through is a debate in a courtroom drama during a court trial that see seen in 16 12 who was accused of raping a young female artist. 32 00:03:56,130 --> 00:04:03,870 Good afternoon, gentlemen. And so the show is an all female three hander that takes those court transcripts 33 00:04:03,870 --> 00:04:10,740 and a 400 year old child I devises around them to restage it for centuries. 34 00:04:10,740 --> 00:04:14,860 I don't know what it is, but I have it. 35 00:04:14,860 --> 00:04:18,630 But it's true. It's true. Yes, it is. 36 00:04:18,630 --> 00:04:41,270 And. Since the disappearance of so many of the same groups like the it's not like I might be if you click on the. 37 00:04:41,270 --> 00:04:53,360 I could never be wrong, 16, 12, the court, but the questions are all selected and the answers given to the Italian. 38 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:59,780 Each testimony of the seven month trial is written down, but not all of the pages survived, 39 00:04:59,780 --> 00:05:08,420 what remains four centuries later is translated into English and now will be spoken again. 40 00:05:08,420 --> 00:05:49,480 Everything that follows is true. I was taken last Friday from my house, the entrance of Santa Spiritual, 41 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:54,530 it's about 11 o'clock and I'm can't imagine the reasons why prison and all this interrogation. 42 00:05:54,530 --> 00:05:57,610 OK, we will get there. 43 00:05:57,610 --> 00:06:06,430 First of all, how can you come to do a search and rescue of in your area for about a year to get across the street from being demolished? 44 00:06:06,430 --> 00:06:13,000 And how about his daughter, Artemesia? I was told she was a respectful young woman. 45 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:18,190 So I don't know what my elder daughter began to associate with respect. 46 00:06:18,190 --> 00:06:28,230 You know, and to come to a meeting with the judge went well to mention I began to enjoy each other's company very much deeply. 47 00:06:28,230 --> 00:06:31,800 She sure I was so happy. 48 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:33,370 His daughter and I become friends. 49 00:06:33,370 --> 00:06:40,090 He actually hugged me quite warmly so I could enjoy a separation as she was always alone and didn't have anyone else there. 50 00:06:40,090 --> 00:06:49,830 And then if we take a pass to get religion and. Now. 51 00:06:49,830 --> 00:06:55,140 So do you want to know why what drew you to this trial, how do you find out about it? 52 00:06:55,140 --> 00:07:02,280 Why this material to start with? Yeah, sure. And so I think I first heard about amnesia, 53 00:07:02,280 --> 00:07:11,050 where there is an exhibition at the National Gallery a few years ago and could be on that you just talked about, which is bogus. 54 00:07:11,050 --> 00:07:15,210 And there's one painting that which was done, rescue. 55 00:07:15,210 --> 00:07:22,260 And there's an interesting article just kind of about her and talking about how and she did this, 56 00:07:22,260 --> 00:07:27,270 which so many, you know, is a kind of iconic starting painting. 57 00:07:27,270 --> 00:07:32,850 And there was an article about how that painting is often being read autobiographically. 58 00:07:32,850 --> 00:07:41,820 And because the artist had been subject to this kind of infamous trial and whether that was a fair assessment or not, whether it was a painting, 59 00:07:41,820 --> 00:07:50,700 and within that article, it said that the court transcripts that existed and that she had said in the trial the words, it is true to say it is true. 60 00:07:50,700 --> 00:08:01,500 And while the torture, one of which is obviously very shocking, awful, and and we, as I said, often working in a kind of debating ish way. 61 00:08:01,500 --> 00:08:06,600 And this is kind of at the beginning of this sort of it's true. 62 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:11,850 And the meta kind of momentum movement. So we're having conversations around that. 63 00:08:11,850 --> 00:08:18,630 And then, Alex, at the same time, within the making of you might say so we kind of mesh those two ideas together. 64 00:08:18,630 --> 00:08:27,840 And early on, I think we were quite clear about what it was to be a female and we were interested in doing something quite stylised with it. 65 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:34,950 And so I think the idea of it being all female and done in quite a heightened way is of. 66 00:08:34,950 --> 00:08:38,640 Conception. That's right. So can I ask you about the script? 67 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:45,060 So am I, right? It was a seven month trial and the play was an hour and a half an hour and 20. 68 00:08:45,060 --> 00:08:55,740 So I think it got longer. So maybe it's better that you take the bait to me. 69 00:08:55,740 --> 00:09:01,970 Tell us about the process of putting a script together from seven months with the trial transcripts. 70 00:09:01,970 --> 00:09:08,910 Yeah, so when we so we started the process by first we have to find the transcripts, which actually were quite easy to find in the end. 71 00:09:08,910 --> 00:09:14,560 They've been translated and edited by an art historian called Mary, and they were at the back of her book. 72 00:09:14,560 --> 00:09:19,380 And so we found those and we our first process was just to read through them all. 73 00:09:19,380 --> 00:09:23,150 And I think how many pages was it was 80 pages. Yes. 74 00:09:23,150 --> 00:09:28,710 It's not complete yet. It's not complete. There are holes in pages, but it's still quite a lot. 75 00:09:28,710 --> 00:09:31,560 And actually a lot of it felt quite dry. 76 00:09:31,560 --> 00:09:36,870 And there were loads of characters or people that you hear from for sort of half a page you were interrogated. 77 00:09:36,870 --> 00:09:42,930 And, you know, it's a question of structure, of a play as well as finances. 78 00:09:42,930 --> 00:09:46,530 We knew that it was going to have to be a three hundred, maybe four a person. 79 00:09:46,530 --> 00:09:49,920 And we couldn't have sort of cast of 60, which was the people that was in it. 80 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:56,640 So we went through and we made a list of the characters that we thought were the most interesting and the most intriguing story, 81 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:00,300 which in our case was Artemesia Tisia, who lived in the house. 82 00:10:00,300 --> 00:10:08,130 I see Taxi and we found that sections. And we basically this is where we start by. 83 00:10:08,130 --> 00:10:13,110 We took some information that all the characters said and we incorporated them. 84 00:10:13,110 --> 00:10:17,010 So there is the structure in the show about the house we call it. 85 00:10:17,010 --> 00:10:23,430 It's your turn or your turn to go where she has this moment where she sort of says 86 00:10:23,430 --> 00:10:27,960 that Isaiah Thomas came to the house that was actually said by someone else, 87 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:33,870 but he did have quite a similar time. So so we merged those characters that they did have. 88 00:10:33,870 --> 00:10:40,650 We do smash things. We did what we said at all times, but in no way. 89 00:10:40,650 --> 00:10:48,420 Yeah. So we had to do that kind of to make it make sense, really, but not really, really early decision that we were going to start. 90 00:10:48,420 --> 00:10:52,530 I can't stop saying like we're not is a lot of editing. 91 00:10:52,530 --> 00:10:56,070 Editing, editing is the way the creative editing it. Yeah. 92 00:10:56,070 --> 00:11:01,200 But we when we started by putting all the information that we thought was interesting, 93 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:06,540 is what we called our toolkit, which is what we gave to the devices when we started working with them. 94 00:11:06,540 --> 00:11:09,930 And at that point all the information would still like to show the three and a half 95 00:11:09,930 --> 00:11:14,250 hours long and slowly we just started pulling it back and back and back then, 96 00:11:14,250 --> 00:11:20,010 you know, we took this idea of holes in the pages, the fact that these transcripts don't exist in full, 97 00:11:20,010 --> 00:11:24,270 healthy status as an invitation sort of read between those lines and fill in those holes, 98 00:11:24,270 --> 00:11:31,830 which is where we sort of started using some devising and we allowed modern voices to come through and change some of the language. 99 00:11:31,830 --> 00:11:39,840 I think what's interesting for us, what was interesting is that even though these transcripts exist in sort of the and form, 100 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:45,090 the questions were originally asked and that in the answers given in Italian, we were reading an English translation. 101 00:11:45,090 --> 00:11:48,570 So already the idea it had been interpreted once already. 102 00:11:48,570 --> 00:11:51,840 So we were then put in another interpretation on top of that. 103 00:11:51,840 --> 00:12:01,350 So even though we're saying it's verbatim, we kind of knew that was already flawed because the United States and it was just that I think, 104 00:12:01,350 --> 00:12:09,300 you know, the form of the show, the approach always came about by accident. I think in the initial debates in courtroom drama do like, you know, 105 00:12:09,300 --> 00:12:14,820 one of the tribunal plays just kind of edited it down and it and that's the comment in itself. 106 00:12:14,820 --> 00:12:20,430 And then when we actually read it and as I said, it's kind of half testimonies and square brackets, 107 00:12:20,430 --> 00:12:23,820 then text me here and characters you hear from there, 108 00:12:23,820 --> 00:12:28,950 we were like, actually, we don't have to do something, you know, much more interesting in the end. 109 00:12:28,950 --> 00:12:39,320 And so I think, like I have to say as well about the small cost also being about finance, it's just very small scale to accompany those, 110 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:45,390 you know, kind of pragmatic decisions you have to make, I think actually themselves quite. 111 00:12:45,390 --> 00:12:52,490 And you can ask about using me and then using the devices, explain, because we use the devices. 112 00:12:52,490 --> 00:13:01,110 Oh, I actually think it's all of us. Well, I mean, actually, in terms of the process of this show is interesting because I was a kind of traditional 113 00:13:01,110 --> 00:13:07,860 writing process that happened in between R&D periods where I had very established working, 114 00:13:07,860 --> 00:13:12,780 which is what I'm Google Doc Open, and then we'll both just be on it, sort of making edits as we go. 115 00:13:12,780 --> 00:13:19,360 We actually did have probably the equivalent amount of time in those writing processes where we were thinking about structure, 116 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:23,460 how one thing led to another, making decisions about merging characters. 117 00:13:23,460 --> 00:13:30,400 But then, like I said, when we took that information into the room, it's still three and a half hours long. 118 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:35,730 And that was just the bait and stuff. So the devices really did help shape it. 119 00:13:35,730 --> 00:13:41,600 And it was a very impulsive process, actually, of thinking, OK, we never see this and I would like to see it. 120 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:46,650 And so can we now think about how this is or we know helped me to talk about how are we going to talk 121 00:13:46,650 --> 00:13:52,050 about this thing that happened to us or can we please imagine what she would say in that situation? 122 00:13:52,050 --> 00:14:00,210 So actually, even though the process that was a sort of we as the company, it felt very we as the group that made the show as well, 123 00:14:00,210 --> 00:14:04,680 I think that there were lots of different versions of authorship at play at once. 124 00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:07,950 And I suppose even on you on your published text. Right. It's it's true. 125 00:14:07,950 --> 00:14:12,300 It's true. It's true by British theatre, like dual authorship. 126 00:14:12,300 --> 00:14:20,050 Very quickly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think that's always I mean, that's what's exciting for us about making this kind of work inside the show. 127 00:14:20,050 --> 00:14:24,750 The written text you end up with could only be created by that specific group of people at that time. 128 00:14:24,750 --> 00:14:29,460 And it also does make it complicated sometimes terms the ship. 129 00:14:29,460 --> 00:14:40,020 And in terms of, you know, this is also working with the original, uh, the basic material, which actually we have to licence the underlying rights to. 130 00:14:40,020 --> 00:14:43,680 It's then when we look at the text now, what's the basis in what is right? 131 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:56,910 Well, and actually it's also, you know, in Meshed Together. And you can ask about the terms of a 16 12 trial, which plays very, 132 00:14:56,910 --> 00:15:03,690 very well in lots of ways and mean a certain of the English law, not Italian law at that point. 133 00:15:03,690 --> 00:15:13,320 But I'm interested that Artemesia father never turns up, that it's as though she's the one putting you on trial. 134 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,260 Was that the case or is it because it's certainly an English law at that point, 135 00:15:16,260 --> 00:15:21,360 if I remember rightly, the father could sue the seducer for damaging his goods. 136 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:27,270 If fact, that's exactly what happened. Yeah. So that's in the transcript begins with his petition. 137 00:15:27,270 --> 00:15:34,320 He's saying exactly that. You know, this man has written to my daughter and marry, which really when it comes down to was the issue. 138 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:38,610 And I think he was originally in the mix for us. 139 00:15:38,610 --> 00:15:42,720 But like you say, we sort of reduced it down to like, what's the simplest? 140 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:49,290 Well, the simplest three to four times you can tell the story is the accuser, the accused and the person who's complicit. 141 00:15:49,290 --> 00:15:53,040 And I think we kind of just thought, what's he doing here? 142 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,520 I mean, as you said, historically, that would have been the case. 143 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:02,130 And that's one of those moments in the show or in the kind of concept of the show that feels very, 144 00:16:02,130 --> 00:16:05,760 very different to now where this actually is a rape trial. 145 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:11,470 It's more a trial about women's honour and the fact that he's not going through the marriage, that. 146 00:16:11,470 --> 00:16:21,240 And so I guess that was us taking a the licence kind of editing by mission to get that she was not in trouble, guess. 147 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:29,370 So, yeah, I think you've got you got all the the things that you would get from Iraq to standing up and saying, 148 00:16:29,370 --> 00:16:33,750 I'm bringing this, this is the Danish people. 149 00:16:33,750 --> 00:16:41,460 Such you actually get that from Artemesia as well. You know, she says that she says, this is offered to me and he won't marry me. 150 00:16:41,460 --> 00:16:49,740 And actually, it's I think it's more powerful and more painful to hear about it within her world than. 151 00:16:49,740 --> 00:16:56,400 Yeah, I don't know. So that you get with the information without a father and without that sort of power structure, that makes a lot more modern. 152 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:02,490 Yeah. And some of the best be left out of the sort of sexual harassment harassment in the street. 153 00:17:02,490 --> 00:17:09,450 I mean, yeah, it's that in the divorce, whether it's the moments that then sort of lift it out and we have to do that within moments, 154 00:17:09,450 --> 00:17:14,070 you know, that are there in this I mean, this is what we found. 155 00:17:14,070 --> 00:17:21,270 So mind the transcripts. The first time is how relatable they were. 156 00:17:21,270 --> 00:17:29,790 It doesn't feel like it's from 400 years ago. You know, Artemesia at one point, she obviously has her testimony about the rape itself, which is, 157 00:17:29,790 --> 00:17:34,020 you know, like they said, we were making it through when the meta stories were just breaking. 158 00:17:34,020 --> 00:17:38,280 And so, you know, we're hearing them everywhere. And then after that was the Covena trial. 159 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:44,190 And it was almost like, I can't believe this is becoming more relevant every time, like not exist in its own world. 160 00:17:44,190 --> 00:17:53,460 But then there are more subtle, like insidious little ways that sexual assault features such as, you know, she says. 161 00:17:53,460 --> 00:17:57,870 I always say, though, she says, someone said to me, I need to sleep with them. 162 00:17:57,870 --> 00:18:02,610 And if I said no, they said they were just going to tell everyone that they did it anyway, that I've done that. 163 00:18:02,610 --> 00:18:06,390 And I have people that happen to at school, like I know so many people that happen to at school. 164 00:18:06,390 --> 00:18:10,620 I even had a version of that to me at school. And it was like, that's 400 years ago. 165 00:18:10,620 --> 00:18:17,310 This is what we talk about, like the 2010s, you know? I mean, it's just it's don't it's so relatable. 166 00:18:17,310 --> 00:18:23,900 It's depressing. But it meant but it is I can't believe I stood up with games like we like comedy. 167 00:18:23,900 --> 00:18:28,770 You no, it's it's horrid how many things in it. 168 00:18:28,770 --> 00:18:31,320 It just hasn't changed. So it did speak for itself. 169 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:35,280 And then I think, you know, there are exceptions that we left the base and we didn't change the world. 170 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,080 And there were other things that we modernise. 171 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:42,750 But I think when we spoke about that before, it's actually surprised people about which bits we've left untouched. 172 00:18:42,750 --> 00:18:50,450 And. Yeah. Can I ask about that, because it's really interesting the way you do it, 173 00:18:50,450 --> 00:18:56,500 because I think sometimes verbatim when things like, say, Rubenstein's is talking to terrorists, 174 00:18:56,500 --> 00:19:02,690 that there are some very recognisable characters and they like my mother and you've got actors doubling and tripling and all the rest of it. 175 00:19:02,690 --> 00:19:07,480 And there's a sense in which this is true because it's the words. 176 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:13,340 But this is a very obviously doubling and everything gives you that sense of this sort of into the sort of complete pretence. 177 00:19:13,340 --> 00:19:18,590 It's so it's being honest about its own falsity. 178 00:19:18,590 --> 00:19:28,460 And you can tell me a bit about the courtroom scenes and, you know, choice to have women play men and how far it becomes about the artificiality, 179 00:19:28,460 --> 00:19:33,790 the body language and everything else that's being about performance and all sorts of. 180 00:19:33,790 --> 00:19:42,640 Yeah, I think definitely we I get some scepticism of traditional forms of debate that I think of the sort of obscure the authorship, 181 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,970 whether it's what's happened, we kind of present themselves, as he said as well. 182 00:19:45,970 --> 00:19:54,370 This is true because these words are said and I think we wanted to draw attention to the activity. 183 00:19:54,370 --> 00:19:59,980 And that's why we have this introduction at the beginning of saying, you know, these are the transcripts from this trial. 184 00:19:59,980 --> 00:20:06,190 A lot of the pages are missing. So the gaps are being filled in. Your attention has gone through a process of translation. 185 00:20:06,190 --> 00:20:14,740 And I think that's because for us, we are always interested in the idea that the way you tell the story or the fact that you were telling your story, 186 00:20:14,740 --> 00:20:20,320 I guess is as important as the story itself. I think in some of our previous shows, 187 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:25,590 the way we've drawn those connexions between the modern and the historical has been to kind of 188 00:20:25,590 --> 00:20:32,080 integrate character and stage or have a very better metaphorical kind of shape of the show. 189 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:36,400 And in this one, I guess kind of as an exercise for ourselves, we're like, actually, we never want to break it. 190 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:42,310 We want to be inside the drama, but we don't need things that come through that say this is contemporary. 191 00:20:42,310 --> 00:20:46,720 And I think one of the key ways that we do that is through music. 192 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:55,750 So in the TV voting rights reasons, it's always kind of like a library on vocal tracks that reflects the kind of sound like we use on stage. 193 00:20:55,750 --> 00:21:02,360 But we use a lot of contemporary music and music from the kind of 20th century onwards and upwards. 194 00:21:02,360 --> 00:21:09,460 The costuming is very stylised, as you said, even through the material that you're drawing attention to, like the actual performance. 195 00:21:09,460 --> 00:21:16,900 And I think that part of this for us is about, yeah, encouraging you to think about the contemporary parallels without breaking character. 196 00:21:16,900 --> 00:21:22,390 And so, you know, we're doing this because, um. Yeah, yeah. 197 00:21:22,390 --> 00:21:28,310 I think the only other thing I would add is in terms of what we're saying about the old female casting. 198 00:21:28,310 --> 00:21:32,080 We let you talk to about five seconds of it not being an all female. 199 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:42,250 So, no, nothing. And I think the idea behind that is because power doesn't need to be, like, performed by, 200 00:21:42,250 --> 00:21:48,250 you know, in this particular story, a man does not need to perform Tassy and show him over power. 201 00:21:48,250 --> 00:21:51,490 And women like power is the way your son is. 202 00:21:51,490 --> 00:21:57,820 The way you hold yourself is your ability to walk into the courtroom and take up the space is the ability to break that and move. 203 00:21:57,820 --> 00:22:04,600 And I think we were interested in one the room being the safest room it could be in the 204 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:11,410 sense that we I just think that I'm not saying that it's only women who experienced this. 205 00:22:11,410 --> 00:22:16,060 So there is like a shared level of understanding Onestop conversation from a specific point. 206 00:22:16,060 --> 00:22:20,800 And that's how we felt like at the beginning of the show. That's what we were going to do. 207 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:25,180 So it made it safe in that way. It also drew attention to. 208 00:22:25,180 --> 00:22:31,300 Yeah, like the power structures in that office. But the amount of people who I didn't you just buy into it. 209 00:22:31,300 --> 00:22:37,390 I don't think people watch, for example, Sophie, who's trying to say I don't think people watch that show and think it's a woman playing a man. 210 00:22:37,390 --> 00:22:43,840 I think people really, you know, they get lost in, like, the power dynamic in how she holds herself or, 211 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,080 you know, we didn't really have to be as well in the device and we didn't think, 212 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:52,570 you know, where where you put your voice, how you started doing it was about playing the character rather than gender. 213 00:22:52,570 --> 00:22:58,430 If we both was going to have to say performance. Tassi both are very, very different interpretations. 214 00:22:58,430 --> 00:23:02,330 Both times it's kind of just happened that you really haven't had to do a whole. 215 00:23:02,330 --> 00:23:12,490 And I became a man. This is me just doing what they do is they been completely different to each other because Sophie has her references. 216 00:23:12,490 --> 00:23:15,850 Was using so of, um, 217 00:23:15,850 --> 00:23:25,180 I think she's sort of like tapped into like Boris Johnson and some major Chelsea actors and then has because when she came into the house, by the way, 218 00:23:25,180 --> 00:23:31,180 plays Judith in this, but he they said it's tough advance about one of our regional advisers, 219 00:23:31,180 --> 00:23:39,820 you know, the Cabinet Office, and she wants to come in at trial. And she rounded herself and up and they both played the characters so differently. 220 00:23:39,820 --> 00:23:45,850 But it was toxic, both of them. And so many people just fell in love with them. 221 00:23:45,850 --> 00:23:56,830 It was so, so weird what it is about toxic masculinity. The audiences can't get enough of it anyway, and there's nobody to take back the show. 222 00:23:56,830 --> 00:24:03,640 And so it comes on the White House. You you you know, people would come sort of sobbing like so moved. 223 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:08,830 I really love the show. So your friend never stop. 224 00:24:08,830 --> 00:24:14,320 But yeah. Yeah. I mean, there is something I mean, we some of the students here, we talked about this. 225 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:18,940 I don't think anyone at least admitted in the classroom to falling in love with somebody. 226 00:24:18,940 --> 00:24:26,110 But this sheer sort of hypnotic performance that she puts it, I mean, it's terrifying, genuinely frightening. 227 00:24:26,110 --> 00:24:32,410 Yeah. I mean, she is incredible as a performer. And she really did tap into the the big. 228 00:24:32,410 --> 00:24:41,460 The small. Like the loud that the quiet, she's yeah, she yes is incredible, but it was quite scary to play against her as well. 229 00:24:41,460 --> 00:24:47,980 Yes, pretty scary statement. Yeah, both of them were. But just in competitive ways, I mean, it's just the way they both look at you. 230 00:24:47,980 --> 00:24:57,430 It was like, yeah, no, I think when you when you allow yourself to like, dress in that power and just take up those spaces, 231 00:24:57,430 --> 00:25:07,540 you can't help but interact with them in a very specific way that is very threatening even when it's not being outwardly and obviously so. 232 00:25:07,540 --> 00:25:16,850 But yeah, I think that's a really lovely word. I say, yeah, just wearing power through gesture rather than, you know, we don't want to. 233 00:25:16,850 --> 00:25:21,640 It was incredibly powerful even in the performance because you're so aware of that 234 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:32,140 in the switch from time to time and that kind of that sense of owning a space and, 235 00:25:32,140 --> 00:25:38,350 you know, expecting to be listened to and being able to pace your voice very slowly because, you know, people wait. 236 00:25:38,350 --> 00:25:40,240 Yeah, it was really interesting, actually. 237 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:48,820 We went and saw a production of its very recently in France and I did speak French, so I can understand a lot. 238 00:25:48,820 --> 00:25:54,460 But they did make policy was played by a man, an older man, 239 00:25:54,460 --> 00:26:01,630 and it was really interesting in that process of watching the text because obviously I knew what was happening. 240 00:26:01,630 --> 00:26:07,180 Some bits were different. But what do you play it kind of literally in the casting? 241 00:26:07,180 --> 00:26:09,580 I couldn't figure out. I don't know. 242 00:26:09,580 --> 00:26:18,460 I couldn't figure out how it felt, but I was watching and being like this is not trying to shy away from the artifice in relation to this. 243 00:26:18,460 --> 00:26:23,530 And yeah, I don't know. But I didn't say it was really interesting, but I think it confirmed because, yeah, 244 00:26:23,530 --> 00:26:29,710 there's been a few kind of other productions and I think it confirmed the idea did actually. 245 00:26:29,710 --> 00:26:35,410 One of the conditions should be there is no female play and we're seeing a drama school doing it to. 246 00:26:35,410 --> 00:26:41,000 My students were very excited to see it. And by three female performers. 247 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:46,520 Yeah, I'll be interested to see that, because the idea of the production scene seen where the casting is most of the time is. 248 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,920 Yeah, it feels like it was built as you're seeing around it being well with everywhere. 249 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:57,730 But it's the only thing different ownership of the story, a different something which you tell. 250 00:26:57,730 --> 00:27:03,880 It's the ways which makes it your story. As a women, I, I don't know. 251 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:04,180 I mean, 252 00:27:04,180 --> 00:27:12,190 I would be interested if people feel like that when that condition has been put on them of being like the film industry from a being female group. 253 00:27:12,190 --> 00:27:18,640 I think for us it felt it did kind of give us ownership and we were talking in an intellectual way of life. 254 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,820 Will ultimata Paintsville these women coming together and they're doing this and it 255 00:27:21,820 --> 00:27:27,910 feels very it feels very playful and there's a lot of solidarity between women. 256 00:27:27,910 --> 00:27:32,260 So that makes sense that that would be the heart of what causes um. 257 00:27:32,260 --> 00:27:37,570 I don't know if it comes to that, but I do think I needed to say what I said before. 258 00:27:37,570 --> 00:27:47,620 It made it feel safer. I would say and I don't know if that's fair because we've never made the show without any other configuration, 259 00:27:47,620 --> 00:27:51,040 then I believe that it will always be the same people that were in the room. 260 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:55,870 But I think it allowed us to take ownership of the characters in a very safe way. 261 00:27:55,870 --> 00:27:58,720 And then we would take breaks and we would have tea and then we would come back. 262 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:03,560 We were very low and very high in that rehearsal process, which is why I think there are moments where we laugh. 263 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:08,890 And I find it very funny at the moments where we really allow ourselves to go quite soft and quite dark. 264 00:28:08,890 --> 00:28:22,180 But I never felt unsafe. And my focus on who wanted to talk about that, they we're going to show is at the time shooting the film clip. 265 00:28:22,180 --> 00:28:25,960 But it's one of the first moments where you stage a time. 266 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:31,360 And it is in this case, it's Susanna and the Elders, which can I let you explain much clearer. 267 00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:43,890 But this is the moment after the staging when you when you were not there is explaining her version of. 268 00:28:43,890 --> 00:28:52,860 Let's be sure. Could you please clarify to the court what you believe the relevance of this particular case? 269 00:28:52,860 --> 00:28:57,760 What do you mean? Well, this is an iconic image and just it's been painted by men. 270 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:04,200 Yes, but this isn't just about the story, is that this is about how you painted what you make a painting say. 271 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:11,070 I mean, my completely different to the others looks pretty similar to the U.S., but she's not just not going to get the same shape. 272 00:29:11,070 --> 00:29:16,330 Right. Sorry. Have you even seen any of the others. Starting come up. 273 00:29:16,330 --> 00:29:25,020 No, no, no. I just talked to a lawyer. He just painted Zuzana to be encouraging folks. 274 00:29:25,020 --> 00:29:33,450 They might look at the angle of her body pointed away from the just is inviting that Gazit who want to step away from the other, 275 00:29:33,450 --> 00:29:39,510 presumably menubar you. I mean, she's you know, she's naked. 276 00:29:39,510 --> 00:29:46,590 She's naked. It's not that she is naked because that's what people are when they have balls. 277 00:29:46,590 --> 00:29:52,540 The point is, in my painting, you can clearly see that she doesn't welcome any of this. 278 00:29:52,540 --> 00:30:01,050 And I painted that because I do hope that. So to be a woman who was being portrayed as a man who was getting off on it, honestly, I'm sorry, 279 00:30:01,050 --> 00:30:12,930 but being really honest about his shoes, she is quite clearly just more like having feel in my garden. 280 00:30:12,930 --> 00:30:20,700 I might see them outside because I'd hate for anyone to think that I'm going to do them here. 281 00:30:20,700 --> 00:30:39,090 I'm going to watch. I always stop watching me. 282 00:30:39,090 --> 00:30:51,510 And he's going to put up on our shores in the room like me and the things that are being referenced there slowly. 283 00:30:51,510 --> 00:30:53,880 Can you tell us just a little bit about this? I mean, first of all, 284 00:30:53,880 --> 00:31:02,400 I suppose just the decision to stage and I'm already covid I think that word in terms of what you stage these things as part of the proposal itself, 285 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:10,930 why did that come about? And I think we were really clear early on that we wanted to incorporate them guess in a kind of basic staging way, 286 00:31:10,930 --> 00:31:18,640 because it's an interesting texture to art. We've got some images serving as the kind of inspirations for this, 287 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:25,110 and we liked the idea of having almost two worlds within the show where there's this kind of factual, 288 00:31:25,110 --> 00:31:30,360 historical and moving performance that comes through the debate and stuff. 289 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:37,260 But then the paintings being just this kind of otherworldly, so bright and so, you know, fantastical. 290 00:31:37,260 --> 00:31:41,130 So I think on a basic kind of staging level, it was exciting to have that let's play with. 291 00:31:41,130 --> 00:31:50,610 And but we were also interested in this question of how that works and how life the paintings seem to, if not be completely autobiographical, 292 00:31:50,610 --> 00:31:56,460 then to be expressing something similar to what she experienced and how we might reverse things together. 293 00:31:56,460 --> 00:32:03,630 And so we the moment where we bring this in is just after us, maybe just talking about being pursued by two men. 294 00:32:03,630 --> 00:32:11,740 And we know that she painted her first is on her own. So it's not necessarily autobiographical, but the things she's talking about are dynamic. 295 00:32:11,740 --> 00:32:19,850 She's familiar with and and definitely she is subverting, as you can see, like the traditional way that it's depicted. 296 00:32:19,850 --> 00:32:26,610 If she's not invited and she's turning away and she hasn't got this kind of she's not dressed like that. 297 00:32:26,610 --> 00:32:35,430 And so we're interested in setting up that contrast between the two and I guess in doing doing on stage what she's doing in the painting. 298 00:32:35,430 --> 00:32:47,460 So having Alice and as the performer naked rather than nude, and I'm kind of talking about her presenting herself in that way, I guess. 299 00:32:47,460 --> 00:32:56,050 Anything else you can ask about the dynamics of actually performing that? 300 00:32:56,050 --> 00:33:05,280 Yeah, I mean, it's often needed to be defined as a powerful thing, but that whole thing about you said, 301 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,880 you know, where it says the presumably male viewer, it's an audience. 302 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:14,610 How far are you how far does it feel like powerful and how does it feel to the people through. 303 00:33:14,610 --> 00:33:24,840 And I and there's another whole dynamic where you have to sit here with yourself naked, as I know you did ask me. 304 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:32,190 And it was fine. It does feel fine, I think. And in terms of this moment in the show, it does feel like a powerful move. 305 00:33:32,190 --> 00:33:43,680 I think basically and I remember the conversation that we had before we started making a show and had said this is before we cast it. 306 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,280 You know, I think there's a question about a performer who plays on Twitter. 307 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:54,360 Might we need that? We should ask them if they feel comfortable taking off their clothes because nobody feels really integral to her work. 308 00:33:54,360 --> 00:34:01,020 And I was like, yeah, that wouldn't be gratuitous. Like the performer. Obviously, they have to be comfortable with it, but that really makes sense. 309 00:34:01,020 --> 00:34:06,900 And then we cast it and then it was there a moment. 310 00:34:06,900 --> 00:34:13,890 Yeah, the first preview, because everywhere that we had tried to rehearse the show was basically a glorified greenhouse. 311 00:34:13,890 --> 00:34:22,800 So every time we got to this point, I'd be like, announce the moment you got to take a picture of a so and not today and then. 312 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:27,660 But it meant that the first time I did it was in a show setting with an audience. And we didn't attack. 313 00:34:27,660 --> 00:34:32,460 Or do you not notice? It didn't surprise me at all. 314 00:34:32,460 --> 00:34:36,150 And they said to me before the show started, you don't have to do it. 315 00:34:36,150 --> 00:34:43,800 You absolutely don't have to do it. And I think I mean, you know, it takes a lot of things to go through isolation and opposes. 316 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:48,510 The first really was the first time we ran something the whole way and actually doing it. 317 00:34:48,510 --> 00:34:55,410 I was like, no, this makes sense. This is how if she's choosing to dress to show her art and then, you know, 318 00:34:55,410 --> 00:35:00,120 that's something between the nature of the show when she doesn't choose it and when that's taken away from me. 319 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:10,320 But I never at this moment in the show felt shy about it or felt nervous because I felt like it was it was a power move for her. 320 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:15,270 Now, something interesting, I think it's the projector screen is the thing that does it. 321 00:35:15,270 --> 00:35:19,140 But, um. Yeah, no, I actually do I do feel okay about it. 322 00:35:19,140 --> 00:35:23,460 It is a very weird I think there is if we're talking about it really bluntly, 323 00:35:23,460 --> 00:35:34,470 there is something very interesting about what it means to take your clothes off in a form that is included in the face and you do exist in a void. 324 00:35:34,470 --> 00:35:36,930 You can never watch it back. That's what it is. 325 00:35:36,930 --> 00:35:43,440 When I did this, I had a phone call with someone who said, you know, just see where this is going to go and be busy. 326 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,100 You might be Troas. You might want to come with your social media for a month. 327 00:35:47,100 --> 00:35:52,590 And I thought, oh, that's so depressing, especially in relation to what the show is. 328 00:35:52,590 --> 00:35:58,110 Um, but that's not happened. So and that that was conversation that people had to have with me. 329 00:35:58,110 --> 00:36:02,100 And I was so nervous about it. So never did happen. 330 00:36:02,100 --> 00:36:08,490 Did you. Come on. I did come off my social media, which didn't make no effect of anyone because I never posted on anyway. 331 00:36:08,490 --> 00:36:17,370 I was just a lurker. But, um, I yeah, I did take myself off it just because, you know, I think if your if your brain is that way inclined anyway, 332 00:36:17,370 --> 00:36:24,480 that you're worried about what people are going to say, which I am, I'm not confident at all in that way. 333 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:28,740 It is just a very. Yeah but why would you want to put yourself out there. 334 00:36:28,740 --> 00:36:32,160 So I absolutely believe in it in relation to the show. 335 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:39,780 But in terms of the decision to do it, I only did it because it felt like the right thing to do in relation to the show, 336 00:36:39,780 --> 00:36:43,420 not because I feel like the world is of a comfortable place to do that. 337 00:36:43,420 --> 00:36:48,230 It does that mean there are different dynamics within the theatre, 338 00:36:48,230 --> 00:36:56,130 that there's a sense in the sense once it's up on screen and that's part of the world of social media, that the power balance shifts. 339 00:36:56,130 --> 00:37:06,630 And this is about artemesia, about in some ways controlling what's looked at that, making the image is in some ways controlling the gaze. 340 00:37:06,630 --> 00:37:11,970 Yeah, I think they're way in between. You feel like you're able to do that in a way that clearly social media. 341 00:37:11,970 --> 00:37:15,180 It's I think so. I think you buy into it. 342 00:37:15,180 --> 00:37:25,080 There's a contract between audience and performer where, OK, we're going to experience something for an hour that's going to exist in this moment. 343 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:30,900 You're going to leave. I'm going to leave, and then it's going to be over. And you expect, you know, it has actually happened. 344 00:37:30,900 --> 00:37:36,450 Once you expect that people won't take photos, you expect that people won't abuse your trust in that way, 345 00:37:36,450 --> 00:37:45,240 like you're sharing a story and then it will be done. And I think the form of it, the record of it changes like some of these screenshots. 346 00:37:45,240 --> 00:37:47,610 I think that can happen and. 347 00:37:47,610 --> 00:37:54,090 The credits are there and people can find you, people who haven't actually shared anything with you, they've just watched something that you've done. 348 00:37:54,090 --> 00:38:01,110 And I think that for me was something that I became incredibly aware of. 349 00:38:01,110 --> 00:38:07,200 We've actually just shot a short film, a short film. And that is that was like the first thing I've ever done for Hummer's, 350 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:12,870 because this basically run as a third service record and I'm having that same thing now. 351 00:38:12,870 --> 00:38:20,820 It's just such a different mindset if your experience is better because it's such a temporal experience and then suddenly it's not anymore. 352 00:38:20,820 --> 00:38:26,280 It's something like this forever or as long as the hard drive exists. 353 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:33,010 And I just think what's really interesting, what that does to you psychologically know something in that film, I hope that makes sense. 354 00:38:33,010 --> 00:38:39,420 I feel like can I ask about that? You know, sort of going back to the to the to the theatre audience itself. 355 00:38:39,420 --> 00:38:45,900 And it feels like there are sort of two if if if Tasser is constantly playing to the audience. 356 00:38:45,900 --> 00:38:49,950 Right. It's always a little like, you know what I mean? You know, you get that you get that joke. 357 00:38:49,950 --> 00:38:58,110 If that is one of the really key moments where at least for me, I'm aware of you gesturing to the audience right in your audience. 358 00:38:58,110 --> 00:39:05,610 And then we decided it was time to show. But it's truly a moment where you are my understanding, maybe this is real room. 359 00:39:05,610 --> 00:39:12,090 What you're saying. It is true. It is true. It's true. It is true. And it is to every member of the audience. 360 00:39:12,090 --> 00:39:17,110 Can you give us a sense of how you figured out those dynamics of you and the audience? 361 00:39:17,110 --> 00:39:20,190 Yeah, so that's true. 362 00:39:20,190 --> 00:39:29,880 So I think the painting description I remember you saying to me as a note and saying that is where Artemesia is going to feel most comfortable. 363 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:34,440 She's going to be, oh, she's going to own her. She's going to love talking about it. 364 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:42,960 So if she's tired and weary in other moments, this is when she's ready, you know, that's her arena and she gets to be the showman. 365 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:48,390 And it's true. Suction was a fluke. So that was also the same preview. 366 00:39:48,390 --> 00:39:51,660 We hadn't really figured out what to do in that section, 367 00:39:51,660 --> 00:39:58,670 but we knew I need to set dressing to the stage and I certainly needed to change and it certainly changed. 368 00:39:58,670 --> 00:40:02,670 So it was like to fill the time. 369 00:40:02,670 --> 00:40:10,740 And again, it was it was a very impulsive process. So I felt like everyone trusted me to make a decision. 370 00:40:10,740 --> 00:40:15,750 And what became incredibly apparent is that there was an audience and I wanted to talk to them. 371 00:40:15,750 --> 00:40:19,200 So I went through every audience member and said, it's true, it's true, it's true. 372 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:23,850 And actually, that became a really, really important moment of the play, 373 00:40:23,850 --> 00:40:28,710 because I think firstly, that's what we're about to change form when we leave the courtroom. 374 00:40:28,710 --> 00:40:31,980 But I got to think about as me Panopto not me just saying it's true. 375 00:40:31,980 --> 00:40:40,800 I think about as myself as a performer, share with the audience a reflection that this is true and it's happening now and this is what's going on. 376 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:45,390 And we're not even trying to deny that it's true. There's no dramatic interest in being right. 377 00:40:45,390 --> 00:40:52,740 But maybe she's lying. And it is a moment of just collective recognition and sadness before we take that sadness 378 00:40:52,740 --> 00:40:57,030 and we move and anger because that is a more helpful fade into the of the theatre with, 379 00:40:57,030 --> 00:41:06,000 um, that's how I think about it. None of us is bearing witness moment. 380 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,570 And what I'm interested in, Helfant, that kind of justice, for example. 381 00:41:09,570 --> 00:41:24,660 But the one about the Stephen Lawrence enquiry that at the end there's a point where he stands within the play to bear witness, to remember him. 382 00:41:24,660 --> 00:41:28,890 And in the light from the beginning, everything. The audience then stood as well. 383 00:41:28,890 --> 00:41:34,710 And there was that sense of opening, being in a room together, acknowledging something and giving it to your attention. 384 00:41:34,710 --> 00:41:41,160 Is there a sense in which that moment that you had that it's true is made some of the same thing? 385 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:48,840 Yeah, I think so. Um, it was definitely something about the yeah. 386 00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,500 We did this on tourism. It was like the audience at that point, 387 00:41:52,500 --> 00:41:59,520 which I guess on a very basic level means that you can see the audience and then we're acknowledging within a shared space that's not happening. 388 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:05,700 So I think there is something you were talking about there being a shared experience, sharing the story together. 389 00:42:05,700 --> 00:42:09,780 I think that is a moment where we really, really want to draw attention to that. 390 00:42:09,780 --> 00:42:16,890 And it feels like just speaking with you, saying as well that you kind of stop being artemesia about the audience at stage. 391 00:42:16,890 --> 00:42:22,860 It feels like because of the repetition, when you repeat something several times almost loses, meaning. 392 00:42:22,860 --> 00:42:23,820 I think in this case, 393 00:42:23,820 --> 00:42:32,940 it's like you repeated several times that it's losing its context and becomes almost about every woman who has this experience or every. 394 00:42:32,940 --> 00:42:44,730 And that kind of falls away. Yeah, I decided that version of the picture earlier in this book is Wonderful Friends, for which I love. 395 00:42:44,730 --> 00:42:47,910 And you're going to have to write down so we can publish it to you. 396 00:42:47,910 --> 00:42:53,910 But how does that fit with that concept of truth that is so, so highlighted at the end? 397 00:42:53,910 --> 00:43:01,800 There is that version of verbatim truth or truth, and it is true together for you in this production. 398 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:10,590 I think one I think like we are, as I said, for like drawing attention to the act of restaging to draw a kind of parallel. 399 00:43:10,590 --> 00:43:18,810 So we want an audience to consider, I guess, consider how they're watching something and to constantly switch the way that they're engaging with it. 400 00:43:18,810 --> 00:43:24,480 So at times, something feels like it is, you know, historical fact being mysterious. 401 00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:29,450 At times something is clearly anachronistic and say, oh, actually, what am I saying? 402 00:43:29,450 --> 00:43:36,430 And just because we're interested in that, I mean, the idea that and yeah. 403 00:43:36,430 --> 00:43:43,770 That that brings something to it. But I think, as I was saying, is that it feels like within the play, it's like everything can come into question. 404 00:43:43,770 --> 00:43:49,290 Apart from the truth of what Artemesia saying, it's like there's only one certainty in the play, 405 00:43:49,290 --> 00:43:54,030 and that is that this is happening to her and everything else. 406 00:43:54,030 --> 00:44:01,550 I feel like we're sort of trying to put the audience in some way or to play with their expectations when they're watching. 407 00:44:01,550 --> 00:44:07,890 Yeah, yeah. I think that's as well through decisions of what we leave verbatim, 408 00:44:07,890 --> 00:44:17,240 really ask me just testimony of the ways we have come out of it, but we don't take the words and the torture section is verbatim. 409 00:44:17,240 --> 00:44:21,940 And I think that's exactly what we're listening to. So let's speak for itself. 410 00:44:21,940 --> 00:44:27,660 We yeah. In terms of that threat, we knew what we didn't want to interrogate. 411 00:44:27,660 --> 00:44:31,200 We watched like there's an awful French production about to be seen. 412 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,830 It not not a production. Sorry, a film. Yeah. 413 00:44:34,830 --> 00:44:40,990 Those are not completely rewrite the narrative so that when she tortured she says, no, I love him, I love him. 414 00:44:40,990 --> 00:44:50,970 And he's like, please, please stop it, stop it. And I can believe that watching how much someone's narrative can be changed in that way. 415 00:44:50,970 --> 00:44:55,260 And I also don't even understand how you can do that within the context of what I was trying to say. 416 00:44:55,260 --> 00:45:01,110 So I think, yeah, we were very aware of what we wanted to be true. 417 00:45:01,110 --> 00:45:09,990 Yeah. You said just now that there's no dramatic interest for us in being like, oh, that wasn't true in terms of what she's saying, but it feels like, 418 00:45:09,990 --> 00:45:17,640 yeah, that that repetition of it is true, I think is also drawing attention hopefully to that as well as the audience would like that. 419 00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:25,890 What is it I'm watching how much of it is historically true, how much of it is being devised in response to the world? 420 00:45:25,890 --> 00:45:30,620 What's happening outside of. I mean, there's so much to say. 421 00:45:30,620 --> 00:45:39,610 That's what you're saying, but I think we probably need to open to the audience and maybe someone will ask about the Goldfields. 422 00:45:39,610 --> 00:45:47,670 But no. And an all questions. Anybody have anything they would like to begin with? 423 00:45:47,670 --> 00:46:05,270 Yeah. So we saw it in the Gulf War and it was so powerful and we thought how great you were as well, all of you, that you and. 424 00:46:05,270 --> 00:46:13,040 This really struck by the story, and we didn't know it was true, and I just this is just coming into question. 425 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:17,510 We went into the wine bar next door and looked up all the paintings. 426 00:46:17,510 --> 00:46:24,710 So brilliant with how you incorporate those images into the drama. 427 00:46:24,710 --> 00:46:30,990 It was fantastic. And it certainly sparked an interest and. 428 00:46:30,990 --> 00:46:40,730 How did you that? This is a question that you were going to put in, and I think we sort of had planned, 429 00:46:40,730 --> 00:46:46,190 so that is to say we had a kind of writing process on devising this kind of both in between. 430 00:46:46,190 --> 00:46:51,800 And we knew that we would use a bit of text about how these are being pursued by the two men. 431 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:53,960 We're going to overlay that with the painting. 432 00:46:53,960 --> 00:47:02,840 And I'm going to say it's going to be in there because that's kind of defence or not is can be read as a kind of great artistic analysis. 433 00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:10,310 But I think what we wanted to play with was then how those paintings were kind of woven into the first time around. 434 00:47:10,310 --> 00:47:15,750 She kind of going on stage that says, here's my painting and this is why I did it. 435 00:47:15,750 --> 00:47:20,930 We kind of see it in two ways and we're quite interested in breaking out the second one. 436 00:47:20,930 --> 00:47:30,950 And I'm getting this idea of Judit, the period as this kind of guardian angel figure with my staff through the canvas. 437 00:47:30,950 --> 00:47:35,960 And I think there was that moment that actually the line came a few shows and ways. 438 00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:42,020 And now I need you now to this. And I think that is kind of you as a performer thinking what does that mean to me to come to? 439 00:47:42,020 --> 00:47:51,440 It's not just to it is going to be just some of those kind of people ready to come home. 440 00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:55,190 So I think we printed it down to maybe those two paintings originally. There are a few we're interested in. 441 00:47:55,190 --> 00:48:04,110 There's one called, um, self-portrait of the other painting she's painting and she's come to visit to some of the artists and the subjects. 442 00:48:04,110 --> 00:48:06,820 And there just wasn't really interested in those things. 443 00:48:06,820 --> 00:48:16,970 But think we're going to have this one with the baby, with Bathsheba, which I think was that was the ending originally was meant to be quite a few. 444 00:48:16,970 --> 00:48:32,770 So for some people would realise we can't do this without the kind of ritualistic physical evidence that, uh oh, gosh, I'm sorry. 445 00:48:32,770 --> 00:48:38,070 You said that you wanted to create like Aida. And that was pretty productive. 446 00:48:38,070 --> 00:48:44,210 They certainly created this vision stuff and kind of like especially like trauma and all the stuff about 447 00:48:44,210 --> 00:48:51,230 actually how it's and it doesn't necessarily get into things that you have an idea about some a long time. 448 00:48:51,230 --> 00:48:56,420 And actually acquisition like Power to Stop Love is helpful. 449 00:48:56,420 --> 00:49:03,530 And so I was wondering, is that based on this kind of play and do you want to create things like that? 450 00:49:03,530 --> 00:49:15,890 Can I stand up and do that is another really, really good point. 451 00:49:15,890 --> 00:49:24,740 I think the anger thing when I say that that was very specific probably to where I was at that moment in time. 452 00:49:24,740 --> 00:49:33,140 Like I said, we were making it through meta stories and I was so TSAs like I think we all were. 453 00:49:33,140 --> 00:49:41,180 But I was so sad reading over and over again these stories, and I felt really helpless and I didn't really know what to do with that. 454 00:49:41,180 --> 00:49:47,660 And I think it's just like I felt like I was like, well, I want to make something because I feel angry. 455 00:49:47,660 --> 00:49:52,220 But the anger is coming out because I just feel so sad that happens every day. 456 00:49:52,220 --> 00:49:57,320 So the anger is probably very selfish and it probably was like, I need to move it into somewhere. 457 00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:04,310 And it gave me a reason to laugh. But I think something that we really tried to think about throughout the show was to have 458 00:50:04,310 --> 00:50:09,290 the audience like we were saying that you from the first rehearsal and we were like, 459 00:50:09,290 --> 00:50:14,120 okay, we don't want to. And hopefully you haven't done this. 460 00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:21,230 Like, we don't want to, like, trigger people in the audience. We don't want to tap into in an unsafe way people who've had this experience. 461 00:50:21,230 --> 00:50:24,170 We made those decisions very often to that. 462 00:50:24,170 --> 00:50:32,600 You know, when we say anything in relation to the right, obviously we ought to try and keep touching to a man and woman. 463 00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:39,680 So anyway, that's about trying to stay away from as much as we can within the subject matter. 464 00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:49,160 And I think that we care and love basically at the current time for the audience that was kind of in the thinking of the structure of the show. 465 00:50:49,160 --> 00:51:00,470 That's obviously I haven't read the study because I just yeah, I never felt like I needed to because that period of time felt so heavy. 466 00:51:00,470 --> 00:51:05,600 And I know we're having this with so many different things, but it's just heaviness. 467 00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:09,980 Like, I just needed to shake it off. And that means like, um. 468 00:51:09,980 --> 00:51:12,720 Do you have anything to add to that? Yeah, I think there's something else as well. 469 00:51:12,720 --> 00:51:18,860 And I think the structure of the show ends in that place and takes longer. 470 00:51:18,860 --> 00:51:26,480 But there's something that happens between the performers on stage that is more you also suggested around like love and solidarity. 471 00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:34,180 And you were talking earlier about how the song is ending and the move away from the pervasive. 472 00:51:34,180 --> 00:51:36,970 Came through almost instinctively from the performance. 473 00:51:36,970 --> 00:51:47,410 What do I need in this moment and what we try to do as well as like I guess with the anger being the like, stabbing, beheading of. 474 00:51:47,410 --> 00:51:55,990 Yeah, it's kind of environmental damage that perhaps the life she had. 475 00:51:55,990 --> 00:52:00,740 And then what comes out of that is the soul in the United States of showing solidarity. 476 00:52:00,740 --> 00:52:12,130 Some people say that feels that there's a tension there between life is like a revenge fantasy, like she kills them and she got her revenge. 477 00:52:12,130 --> 00:52:17,560 But I think there's something else to perform the performance, just something else as well. 478 00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:20,830 I think that's why. Why does it matter? 479 00:52:20,830 --> 00:52:25,400 We've got some really I don't want to start feedback on the other side of the show. 480 00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:29,340 It's true. And I was like, no. Oh. 481 00:52:29,340 --> 00:52:40,180 But I think that was also why we have that sort of epilogue where you guys say this happens and it's really like this awful things that happens. 482 00:52:40,180 --> 00:52:44,110 But I get on and I did this and I did this and I did this and I did it. 483 00:52:44,110 --> 00:52:54,190 Actually, if we start this whole show instead of this, we say you have a retrial, but the end always feels to me, at least to someone to the audience. 484 00:52:54,190 --> 00:52:58,420 I think the audience felt largely from the way he would interact. 485 00:52:58,420 --> 00:53:07,420 So it kind of lends itself to replace and I don't really know how we got there in the sense of like that feels bigger than if I started this. 486 00:53:07,420 --> 00:53:12,910 I would imagine that's horrible. But I think that's what instigated writing and thinking about of the audience. 487 00:53:12,910 --> 00:53:17,410 That's how it goes. I hope that's the case. 488 00:53:17,410 --> 00:53:28,810 I'm going to sit by the place and focus on being as realistic, truthful as possible with the data that the original script, 489 00:53:28,810 --> 00:53:37,120 but also because it's a play, it's a performance as a theatrical element, the performance of the practise of lighting. 490 00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:45,190 How do you balance being as truthful and correct as possible with that performance? 491 00:53:45,190 --> 00:53:51,350 I think we said beginning in kind of a prologue, someone says everything that follows is true. 492 00:53:51,350 --> 00:53:58,120 And I think we did that kind of as a bit of technique or as a bit of a play with your expectations of what you're going to see. 493 00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:01,510 So I think there's something about setting out the beginning of the show saying we're 494 00:54:01,510 --> 00:54:05,740 going to follow this is what you're saying is kind of strictly truthful as possible, 495 00:54:05,740 --> 00:54:12,070 but then it kind of unravelling into something much more weird and theatrical. 496 00:54:12,070 --> 00:54:19,750 And I guess what I hope we manage to do is keep a kind of emotional truth at the centre of it while moving away from the. 497 00:54:19,750 --> 00:54:26,350 So would you say. Yeah. Yeah. 498 00:54:26,350 --> 00:54:32,300 Yes, and I was like that when you do that, 499 00:54:32,300 --> 00:54:43,430 is to say it is true and the title is mysterious and it's just like always something I've wondered about, is that a sign? 500 00:54:43,430 --> 00:54:52,980 Because that means that was an issue, just like we was talking about and focus on a more contemporary. 501 00:54:52,980 --> 00:54:56,720 I guess it's true, but maybe it is true. Would it be a stronger title? 502 00:54:56,720 --> 00:55:02,480 Mostly I remember having a conversation with I said it just like you say it's true. 503 00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:08,870 Or one or the other. I thought we were like we were at the top of the list and I thought you were like, no, but that's interesting. 504 00:55:08,870 --> 00:55:17,130 What I said was true. Yeah, but I don't really know, 505 00:55:17,130 --> 00:55:25,050 I can't I remember what it says in the original transcripts and it felt like something was it was like translated into a lifetime. 506 00:55:25,050 --> 00:55:28,490 OK, so what do I say? It is true. 507 00:55:28,490 --> 00:55:35,720 Yeah, yeah, I you might say so. I think that needs to change just a little. 508 00:55:35,720 --> 00:55:40,740 Yeah. I think there is something actually there about the way it hits. 509 00:55:40,740 --> 00:55:46,950 And I would say, like Mary said, after a while, it starts to not feel like words anymore. 510 00:55:46,950 --> 00:55:51,700 And actually it is true. But then it's true, it gives you just something else to hit. 511 00:55:51,700 --> 00:55:59,160 Like, I just think it came about how it came off, but then I probably paraphrase and change the lines. 512 00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:12,340 So, yes. I was on my back the filming of it, because I noticed I watched it like in the film that I like, 513 00:56:12,340 --> 00:56:19,360 I was acknowledging of the camera because I see my film say it's very like the camera I saw in the audience. 514 00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:26,140 And I try to basically be invisible, whereas I think all three of the actors were going to be watching it. 515 00:56:26,140 --> 00:56:29,770 So I wanted to ask, like, how that decision was made. 516 00:56:29,770 --> 00:56:35,640 And also, if you want to talk about the gold paint, I want to hear it. 517 00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:38,710 And it says the family made the decision basically. 518 00:56:38,710 --> 00:56:46,270 So we have five families we shot all the way through the play, but like five members that have been limited to 22 shots. 519 00:56:46,270 --> 00:56:52,630 So we basically sometimes we to with the film director and he basically says the actors 520 00:56:52,630 --> 00:56:57,010 treat every kind of like of the audience when you want to address an audience member. 521 00:56:57,010 --> 00:57:02,020 We have 12 audience members who were like the jury from the president. 522 00:57:02,020 --> 00:57:07,670 When you want to address the audience, which is addressing. And see the inaudible. 523 00:57:07,670 --> 00:57:14,030 We just have a few ago is another one where we use the term rather than painting. 524 00:57:14,030 --> 00:57:15,460 You're looking at it. 525 00:57:15,460 --> 00:57:24,850 And I think really it is about trying to capture that life experience of being in the service and start to dress for what it's being cast. 526 00:57:24,850 --> 00:57:32,260 It was a jury of peers in the courtroom that you just felt like I was never let down. 527 00:57:32,260 --> 00:57:35,530 And the gold paint. What is that? 528 00:57:35,530 --> 00:57:41,530 How would you describe did? I mean, I. Yeah, yeah. 529 00:57:41,530 --> 00:57:44,410 I'm so you let me say, the convicts, 530 00:57:44,410 --> 00:57:52,060 if you seen for a moment where it's Tom Scre torture in which they come to you and instead of trying to stage that, 531 00:57:52,060 --> 00:58:00,940 you have dipped your hands in gold paint and then it's the event photo that gives you a visual image that we use. 532 00:58:00,940 --> 00:58:09,520 And yes, we came up with this idea of doing the idea of how we represent the thumbscrews, which aren't particularly the middle of street, 533 00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:15,640 I think is and I came up with this concept of a painting which then kind of 534 00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:21,800 spiralled into a wider design concept where the cool because of the studio. 535 00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:28,390 And I just worked and we had like a bucket of water that I did not want to go back to the vision. 536 00:58:28,390 --> 00:58:40,720 And I that in terms of the colour, we kind of went back and forth between red and literal whites is sort of the genesis of whatever I doing. 537 00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:45,970 But that just didn't work. And then it goes. 538 00:58:45,970 --> 00:58:52,520 We did a trip to Florida to start the research base and most of the paintings at these homes go to. 539 00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:55,130 Very destructive paintings, 540 00:58:55,130 --> 00:59:05,630 and so the cold is kind of a reference to that the well at that time and how to fund it through its very rich and poor families. 541 00:59:05,630 --> 00:59:10,810 And it was inspired by the shape a company called. 542 00:59:10,810 --> 00:59:25,960 See, I couldn't agree, and that was all female side of women seemed like we lifted quite a bit stylistically and women wearing black suits, 543 00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:30,570 many of those kinds of gold medals for the whole performance. 544 00:59:30,570 --> 00:59:36,880 And it's basically like political rhetoric and slogans like weapons and things like this. 545 00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:47,050 And we just love to look at the gold and see what I would think of the gold as well as we see statues of people. 546 00:59:47,050 --> 00:59:56,440 So so, yeah, when you see people trapped in time kind of representing an event or a moment that's happened to them that in gold and that I 547 00:59:56,440 --> 01:00:05,630 think of that as sort of almost like people wanting to be artemesia in this moment and the same type of emotional response, 548 01:00:05,630 --> 01:00:13,220 that that's always how I felt, that I had something that. 549 01:00:13,220 --> 01:00:18,960 And there's one thing by and Jan, how big is it going to be about the show? 550 01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:24,920 And she talked about the patent being applied to of saying that markets everything that artificial touches 551 01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:31,130 and which wasn't necessarily on the interpretation of the big mark somehow by the torture and by the rape. 552 01:00:31,130 --> 01:00:37,910 And that being something that sort of sticks to her and goes in cycles effect when it was like really stupid decision practically, 553 01:00:37,910 --> 01:00:49,940 because she really suits the whole time. It's easy for me, like specially made very intricate software. 554 01:00:49,940 --> 01:01:00,460 You've got time for maybe one more question and then I know I'm looking at you, but this person is so funny, you know, I mean, it's also. 555 01:01:00,460 --> 01:01:03,740 Yes, I suppose it has the biggest impact. 556 01:01:03,740 --> 01:01:12,130 So, yes, we've been feeling impassioned of the show and that's I wonder how much you guys have for us to discuss, 557 01:01:12,130 --> 01:01:22,270 like an ideal audience member on this and whether you find it in some sense targeting the show in between between the states, but targeting the show, 558 01:01:22,270 --> 01:01:27,910 people who experience something that maybe is relatable to the show as far as the sexual assault, 559 01:01:27,910 --> 01:01:33,050 et cetera, whether it's actually more challenging people's views, like, 560 01:01:33,050 --> 01:01:38,860 yeah, I kind of feel traditional, like not go up like, oh, 561 01:01:38,860 --> 01:01:49,360 I guess it is going to be important to able to change your mind and kind of give voice to whether it was. 562 01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:57,600 Yeah, I mean, I I think when we were making it, we constantly checked in on, OK, 563 01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:06,480 if someone has experienced sexual assault or anything like on a small scale or large scale disruption, how are they going to feel watching it? 564 01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:16,530 That was always like the first thing I think in terms of like that was really like an idea, an ideal audience. 565 01:02:16,530 --> 01:02:21,630 No, but I remember I mean, I just basically said this as well as something bigger. 566 01:02:21,630 --> 01:02:29,160 So I'm sorry that I'm repeating myself. But the moment we were making it and was so specific in terms of all the news that 567 01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:34,380 we were reading and we knew we didn't want to make a show that was about me, 568 01:02:34,380 --> 01:02:42,480 too, we need to make sure it was about all finished and people that it was, of course, and exists in the context of the moment. 569 01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:43,710 Everyone was watching and hearing. 570 01:02:43,710 --> 01:02:54,510 And and so I think it became about and then I got to thank you for giving me the space of reflection on the whole thing, 571 01:02:54,510 --> 01:03:05,160 as well as a smaller thing and finding some sort of solace and safety in that in coming together and sharing a moment based on I'm sorry. 572 01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:10,470 What's it like getting some security from sharing that moment as a community 573 01:03:10,470 --> 01:03:16,350 in this space and then knowing that you can move past these stories as well? 574 01:03:16,350 --> 01:03:20,550 Because the way that the accounts are happening is obviously that kind of frozen in time. 575 01:03:20,550 --> 01:03:24,300 They were about incidents and then that was the end. And then there was another one. 576 01:03:24,300 --> 01:03:30,630 And then there's another one where we actually get to move past this one and I think leave in a more hopeful position. 577 01:03:30,630 --> 01:03:36,660 Um, so I think that was who my target audience was at the time. 578 01:03:36,660 --> 01:03:47,210 Now, I don't know what to do, what you think. And I don't know, really something I was thinking is Artemesia as a kind of painter. 579 01:03:47,210 --> 01:03:54,150 I mean, like a lot more recognition now. So there's just been this exhibition at the National Gallery. 580 01:03:54,150 --> 01:04:00,060 And and there's a few things that we know are in development about life and at the time, 581 01:04:00,060 --> 01:04:04,050 like there was no name recognition, really like Artemesia that's listed. 582 01:04:04,050 --> 01:04:10,020 So on a really basic level, I think we just we want to bring this woman into like public consciousness. 583 01:04:10,020 --> 01:04:14,310 And like others were saying, we were always really, uh, 584 01:04:14,310 --> 01:04:19,650 certain with ourselves that we weren't making a need to show that we were making a show about one specific story. 585 01:04:19,650 --> 01:04:27,540 And I think at that time, we felt like we were trying to correct a historic wrong of this woman who was incredibly famous in her time, 586 01:04:27,540 --> 01:04:32,270 being forgotten throughout our history. It was just about like, let's get her up. 587 01:04:32,270 --> 01:04:38,350 And it feels like that that's changing the last few years, which. Thank you. 588 01:04:38,350 --> 01:04:41,740 On that note, an enormous thank you, guys. 589 01:04:41,740 --> 01:04:50,834 That was fascinating and wonderful on the plate with.