1 00:00:08,270 --> 00:00:20,880 Oh. Hello and welcome to Big Ten Live Events, the live events series from the University of Oxford. 2 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,930 Part of the humanities cultural programme. One of the founding Stones of the Future. 3 00:00:24,930 --> 00:00:27,870 Stephen A. Schwartzmann Centre for the Humanities. 4 00:00:27,870 --> 00:00:35,070 My name is Dr Vicki McGuinness and I'm head of Cultural Programming and Partnerships in the Humanities at the University of Oxford. 5 00:00:35,070 --> 00:00:40,650 No, thrilled to let you know today that we are alive from inside the Ashmolean Museum in Oxford. 6 00:00:40,650 --> 00:00:45,780 Like many places, it is closed to the public right now and we are so grateful to the museum for enabling 7 00:00:45,780 --> 00:00:53,520 this to happen and also for so many people for making sure it is incredibly safe to do so. 8 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:59,100 It is quite odd, I must say, to to be here during this time because I actually used to work here for many years. 9 00:00:59,100 --> 00:01:06,270 And it is actually also an opportunity to celebrate as we bring a research led and public discussion to the museum, 10 00:01:06,270 --> 00:01:15,690 because this was part of the founding stones for this institution. Over 300 years ago, Big Tent Live event brings together students, 11 00:01:15,690 --> 00:01:21,960 researchers and expert practitioners in their field to discuss humanities subjects such as the environment, 12 00:01:21,960 --> 00:01:30,420 medical, humanities and history of disease, as well as celebrating storytelling, music, performance and identity. 13 00:01:30,420 --> 00:01:37,960 Everyone is welcome in our big tent, and we welcome you as we talk about big ideas together today. 14 00:01:37,960 --> 00:01:42,150 This series would not be possible without all of the people both on and off screen. 15 00:01:42,150 --> 00:01:48,960 And we are so grateful to you all. And we are also thrilled that thousands of you have also watched the series so far already. 16 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:55,650 So thank you very much. And welcome back. As usual, there will be opportunities for audience questions at the end. 17 00:01:55,650 --> 00:02:02,780 So if you could put your questions in the YouTube chat, I'll make sure I pick them up and put them to our speakers at the end. 18 00:02:02,780 --> 00:02:11,400 Our speakers today are Dr Alex Lloyd, fellow in German by Special Selection Apps and Edmund Hall in Oxford. 19 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:19,050 Alex teaches German literature and language at the University of Oxford and has published extensively on German literature and film. 20 00:02:19,050 --> 00:02:22,260 She also holds a Torch Knowledge Exchange Fellowship, 21 00:02:22,260 --> 00:02:29,340 working in partnership with the White Rose Foundation in Munich and is also director of the White Rose Project. 22 00:02:29,340 --> 00:02:37,890 We also welcome Tom Harring today, who is founder and artistic director of the professional vocal ensemble Some Solera. 23 00:02:37,890 --> 00:02:45,210 In addition to this, he also has many other roles, as well as a singer, producer and project manager on many projects. 24 00:02:45,210 --> 00:02:52,620 He was also a choral scholar at Merton College, where he read music and concentrated on performance. 25 00:02:52,620 --> 00:03:03,210 German leader and also heavy metal. Apparently, the White Rose Project looks at voices of German resistance. 26 00:03:03,210 --> 00:03:10,530 In 1943, five students and a professor from the University of Munich were executed. 27 00:03:10,530 --> 00:03:18,000 They were part of the white rose. They were a group that called on the German people to resist Hitler. 28 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:26,580 Alex and Tom's collaboration uses translations, spoken word and performance to tell this important and remarkable story. 29 00:03:26,580 --> 00:03:30,780 So thank you so much to Alex and Tom for joining us here today. 30 00:03:30,780 --> 00:03:37,110 What a phenomenal backdrop we have here with the Ashmolean Atrium and Apollo looking at us today. 31 00:03:37,110 --> 00:03:44,610 Thank you for joining us. Could we begin by talking a little bit more about your collaboration? 32 00:03:44,610 --> 00:03:48,630 Sure. Thanks. First of all, key and thanks to the whole torch team. 33 00:03:48,630 --> 00:03:53,130 And it really is incredible to be here. It's very surreal. But it's wonderful. 34 00:03:53,130 --> 00:03:57,870 I'm very grateful for all the organisation that's gone into that. 35 00:03:57,870 --> 00:04:07,980 The White Rose Resistance is really a household name in Germany, but it tends not to be so well-known so much in the UK. 36 00:04:07,980 --> 00:04:15,420 My own interest in this group really started when I was a student. Thanks to a very famous film that came out. 37 00:04:15,420 --> 00:04:23,940 But I also kind of thought about this group a little bit during my own research into the generation that grew up under Hitler. 38 00:04:23,940 --> 00:04:28,470 But it was really two years ago that I kind of was reintroduced to the group. 39 00:04:28,470 --> 00:04:34,050 That was thanks to a teacher at a local school who was just finishing up a book on the white rose. 40 00:04:34,050 --> 00:04:41,400 And he asked me to be part of a seminar series to mark the seventy fifth anniversary of the first trials and execution. 41 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:48,300 So that was kind of how I came into it. And I'm glad that you've told the story in brief. 42 00:04:48,300 --> 00:04:58,920 It really is an incredible and incredibly rich story. The where we come into it in this project is that the group of five students 43 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:04,950 and a professor secretly wrote and distributed antifascist anti-war pamphlets, 44 00:05:04,950 --> 00:05:13,630 and they did this. Between 1942, 1943, these pamphlets have been translated many, many times into English. 45 00:05:13,630 --> 00:05:18,850 So we weren't doing anything new there. But as I read the as I looked around and did some research, 46 00:05:18,850 --> 00:05:28,060 what I realised was that I certainly couldn't find a translation of these texts by students and I couldn't find a translation that was collaborative. 47 00:05:28,060 --> 00:05:31,420 And the leaflet campaign itself was a collaborative process. 48 00:05:31,420 --> 00:05:38,110 And so it seemed like there could be something really exciting and dynamic about involving students in the translation process. 49 00:05:38,110 --> 00:05:42,310 So that's really how the White Rose Project started two years ago. 50 00:05:42,310 --> 00:05:52,690 And I got together a group of students, and they produced a wonderful translation of these tax, which was published along with some academic articles. 51 00:05:52,690 --> 00:05:58,930 And it was so kind of exciting that we thought that perhaps it would be worthwhile doing this again. 52 00:05:58,930 --> 00:06:00,670 And so this year, 53 00:06:00,670 --> 00:06:08,740 we have a new cohort of student translators and they've been working on some excerpts from the letters and diaries of the white rose members. 54 00:06:08,740 --> 00:06:15,190 Much of this material has never been translated or certainly never been published. 55 00:06:15,190 --> 00:06:22,150 Having done a publication the first year, it struck me, why do anything straightforward and easy? 56 00:06:22,150 --> 00:06:28,060 It struck me that it might be exciting to instead explore presenting the text and performance. 57 00:06:28,060 --> 00:06:35,020 And this was also interesting to me because my own research is starting to look at the role of music in the lives of the group and in their reception. 58 00:06:35,020 --> 00:06:42,220 And so this was really the moment where, well, I connected with Tom and we talked about the musical performance as a possibility here. 59 00:06:42,220 --> 00:06:47,230 And it was it was really great to hear from Alex and to learn a bit more about the white race. 60 00:06:47,230 --> 00:06:53,950 And I have heard of them, but hadn't really I didn't know the detail of that amazing story. 61 00:06:53,950 --> 00:07:04,420 And I think what really struck me about ISIS idea was the opportunity for the choir to work on a project that would explore the 62 00:07:04,420 --> 00:07:14,680 combination of spoken and sung text in a kind of really intimate way and also to help kind of facilitate how telling this story. 63 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:22,000 SANZAR is a mixed voice ensemble and we tend to focus on acappella or unaccompanied choral music, 64 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:28,060 which again kind of lent itself particularly to this project, which is really about voices and. 65 00:07:28,060 --> 00:07:34,570 And yet just telling this, telling the story and how we can share it with the audiences. 66 00:07:34,570 --> 00:07:41,230 So at this early stage in the collaboration was really an exciting phase. 67 00:07:41,230 --> 00:07:44,680 And there was this kind of blank canvas in front of us. 68 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:49,660 And that was great to start sharing and sharing ideas together. 69 00:07:49,660 --> 00:07:55,790 And I think that was really the moment I realised that it was going to be a very kind of moving sequence was. 70 00:07:55,790 --> 00:08:06,190 And I started looking at some of the private letters and and particularly her diary entries from the from the prisons that the members ended up in. 71 00:08:06,190 --> 00:08:15,070 And that if we could combine this with a sequence of choral pieces and that would that would be a really moving and dramatic performance. 72 00:08:15,070 --> 00:08:21,970 And so what we did initially was to kind of devise a programme with the idea of actually performing it. 73 00:08:21,970 --> 00:08:27,520 And so we had a performance on the 22nd of February this year in the University Church of Samarra, 74 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:32,380 the Virgin here and centre of Oxford, which was an incredible venue. 75 00:08:32,380 --> 00:08:37,220 And that was the seventh seventh anniversary of the execution of three of the members. 76 00:08:37,220 --> 00:08:50,470 So that was a really important, important moment. I think this is the perfect time for us to go to a clip of that performance. 77 00:08:50,470 --> 00:09:10,460 I mean, it is time he starts to lose his. 78 00:09:10,460 --> 00:09:44,510 Oh. Steve. 79 00:09:44,510 --> 00:09:51,710 I don't know if you received my last letter. There was no mention of it in Muddles and the post I receive here is very disorganised. 80 00:09:51,710 --> 00:09:56,720 I truly pity the Gestapo for having to decipher all of these completely illegible scribbles. 81 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:02,490 But they do get paid for it and duty is duty. Isn't that right, gentlemen? 82 00:10:02,490 --> 00:10:08,240 Dear mother and father, I'm doing well. I'm alive, healthy and well-fed. 83 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:17,200 Have every other Dale and I usually spend it walking. The landscape here, like everywhere in Russia is very peaceful. 84 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:24,160 Dear friends. I'm actually lying in bed and have just woken up from a dream in the dream, I was at a camp in my dreams. 85 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:28,840 I'm normally travelling next to the camp. There was a big lake in the evening. 86 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:33,010 I went to see a woman who owned a boat. We sailed out across the lake. 87 00:10:33,010 --> 00:10:39,700 By then, it was Night-Time. The sky was completely overcast. And in front of a wall of clouds hung the moon. 88 00:10:39,700 --> 00:10:46,630 A great pale disc that illuminated the whole lake. Illuminated isn't quite the right word. 89 00:10:46,630 --> 00:10:51,100 The whole lake was a sort of pale grey. That's nothing unusual. 90 00:10:51,100 --> 00:10:55,840 With some distance away from the moon, there was a little red dot glowing behind the clouds. 91 00:10:55,840 --> 00:11:04,090 That's the sun. The woman explained to me, we live in the only place on earth where you can see the sun and the moon at the same time. 92 00:11:04,090 --> 00:11:09,970 I don't know what happened after that. They say that dreams come from noises you hear when you sleep. 93 00:11:09,970 --> 00:11:18,310 That could well be true. Anyway, I like dreaming. I live in a strange world in my dreams where I'm never quite happy. 94 00:11:18,310 --> 00:11:23,220 But still. Please don't think I'm being silly or sentimental. I'd hate that. 95 00:11:23,220 --> 00:11:31,730 I'm actually quite the materialist. Goodnight. Sophie. 96 00:11:31,730 --> 00:12:59,940 Ms. Sure, we all agree. 97 00:12:59,940 --> 00:13:04,510 That was beautiful and moving. We could move on now. 98 00:13:04,510 --> 00:13:10,390 Perhaps you could tell us about the pope. Sure. 99 00:13:10,390 --> 00:13:18,370 In terms of working on the text and looking at the text of the students, that there is an incredible amount of material here. 100 00:13:18,370 --> 00:13:22,630 As I said, untranslated material, which is really exciting, 101 00:13:22,630 --> 00:13:31,360 but it also involved quite a lot of kind of careful selection and reflection to not only to find texts that would work for collaboration, 102 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:39,460 but also to find texts that were realistically translatable to students worked from October to February and they're finished. 103 00:13:39,460 --> 00:13:48,590 Translations were kind of hot off the press for the concerts. It was a very spontaneous and dynamic project this year. 104 00:13:48,590 --> 00:13:55,660 But we have this kind of incredible corpus of material. And so in the next election, which was was partly something that I was doing, 105 00:13:55,660 --> 00:14:04,960 thinking with the students and partly something I was doing the time we wanted for the performance to really kind of focus on three three things. 106 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:14,360 We wanted to get across an idea of journey so that, you know, we don't end up with this kind of idea that these people were born resisters. 107 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:21,730 You know, this was this was a journey. This was something that developed in them and developed as a result of encounters that they 108 00:14:21,730 --> 00:14:27,010 had and people that they met and friendships they made and things that changed around them. 109 00:14:27,010 --> 00:14:33,160 And so, you know, we have letters from Sophie Scholl when she's 16 or Crystal paused when he's nine. 110 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:44,410 So we wanted to get some of that earlier material into the concert, as well as last letters from prison covering their arrests and incarceration. 111 00:14:44,410 --> 00:14:49,570 The second thing that we really wanted to emphasise was that this was a collaborative endeavour. 112 00:14:49,570 --> 00:14:56,080 There has been and that is sometimes a tendency to focus on one or two individuals in this kind of core group of six. 113 00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:03,040 And we wanted to try and give voice to everyone in as much as that was realistic and possible. 114 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:12,160 And then the third thing that we wanted to do was, was not to have any kind of commentary or narration as part of the event. 115 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:20,320 There is, again, a tendency sometimes to mythologise or idealise activists like this and this group in particular. 116 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:30,650 And so one way we thought that we might be able to counter that would be to simply have their voices juxtaposed with with the music. 117 00:15:30,650 --> 00:15:39,700 Yeah. And I think alongside the very rich set of texts that we had to work with, we thought carefully about the role of the choir. 118 00:15:39,700 --> 00:15:45,130 And and actually what the relationship between the choir and the readers would be 119 00:15:45,130 --> 00:15:51,280 and how the choices of music repertoire would actually kind of influence that role. 120 00:15:51,280 --> 00:16:02,800 And as Alex said early on, we're looking at a kind of early stages before they before they got involved as an activism. 121 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:11,590 And the choir repertoire at that point, we we're looking at pieces that they possibly would have come across there, quite a musical bunch. 122 00:16:11,590 --> 00:16:16,330 And so we included a couple of Barcarolle hours. One of them was in that first clip. 123 00:16:16,330 --> 00:16:26,200 And then I also wanted to include some pieces from Max Ragers, eight sacred songs, which he wrote towards the end of his life in 1914. 124 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:32,230 And one of those in particular really echoed one of Sophie shows letters, 125 00:16:32,230 --> 00:16:38,830 which I think was also in the clip where she described a dream she had and this Brager piece 126 00:16:38,830 --> 00:16:45,730 on zir Liebe and found Tranh really spoke to that text and resonated with surfies letter. 127 00:16:45,730 --> 00:16:52,780 And so it was one of these moments of alignment where suddenly everything kind of came together and it felt, particularly then in performance, 128 00:16:52,780 --> 00:16:57,940 that the choir would then start to kind of really embody Sophie's voice and that some of the 129 00:16:57,940 --> 00:17:04,370 boundaries between the singers and the readers would start to blur and merge a little bit. 130 00:17:04,370 --> 00:17:12,970 And at this point, the choirs inhabiting that sort of memory and dreamspace in this kind of moment, 131 00:17:12,970 --> 00:17:17,500 in a phase that's the calm before the storm, as it were. 132 00:17:17,500 --> 00:17:27,790 Another role of the choir was to bring a kind of fresh perspective and that there as a as a kind of chorus or mass in this drama, 133 00:17:27,790 --> 00:17:35,920 they could they could bring things out of the narrative that that was otherwise dominated by these individuals and that their personal stories. 134 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:42,250 And one of those was a piece by Rudolf Mauer's Berger called really dished out so viewshed. 135 00:17:42,250 --> 00:17:50,110 And that is a really powerful setting that he wrote in the aftermath of the allied bombing of Dresden in 1945, 136 00:17:50,110 --> 00:17:56,050 where he was choirmaster, her boys choir and the Creutz care here. 137 00:17:56,050 --> 00:18:03,990 And that's a really astonishing. Photo, which I think is in the link for her on the White Project. 138 00:18:03,990 --> 00:18:11,670 White Rose Project's Web site, which shows him conducting his choir but in the rubble of Dresden, 139 00:18:11,670 --> 00:18:24,210 and we'd like suppose performing this piece that we sang and then the kind of third role that the choir and habited and brought, 140 00:18:24,210 --> 00:18:31,170 I think, to the drama of it was through these pieces by a composer, Philip Moore. 141 00:18:31,170 --> 00:18:41,550 Which are three settings of prayers by Dietrich Bonhoeffer, whose story really aligns very closely with that of the white race members. 142 00:18:41,550 --> 00:18:49,410 He was Lutheran pastor and theologian and was very strongly involved as a in the 143 00:18:49,410 --> 00:18:55,380 resistance to Naziism and was himself incarcerated and and executed as well. 144 00:18:55,380 --> 00:18:57,420 And at this point in the programme, 145 00:18:57,420 --> 00:19:09,600 it's really the kind of dramatic climax where these three prayers that we perform punctuate the final readings of the members from prison. 146 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:18,590 And a lot of the texts really, again, start to overlap to us. The second moment of realignment where where we can bring the two forces together. 147 00:19:18,590 --> 00:19:25,680 And I think we're going to begin to play an excerpt from the concert at precisely this moment in the concert. 148 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:32,190 So we had translations of readings of these kind of last letters. 149 00:19:32,190 --> 00:19:37,470 And the one that we're going to hear now is Crystal Pope's last letter says his wife 150 00:19:37,470 --> 00:19:44,040 on the day of his execution pulled out like all of them as an incredible figure, 151 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:48,810 an incredible person. And that really comes across through the letters. 152 00:19:48,810 --> 00:19:53,010 He was at this point, 23 years old. He was father of three. 153 00:19:53,010 --> 00:20:01,710 His youngest child had just been born weeks before and he wasn't tapped on his way to see them when he was arrested by the Gestapo. 154 00:20:01,710 --> 00:20:06,600 And there are, I think, specific textual moments in this that really, 155 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:16,470 really echoes so that the Bonhoeffer prayers really start to feel like private letters, which in turn makes the letters feel like prayers. 156 00:20:16,470 --> 00:20:24,310 Let's go to that second clip. My beloved wife. 157 00:20:24,310 --> 00:20:31,170 Thank God you and our children are well. When you think of me, you need not be worried. 158 00:20:31,170 --> 00:20:39,660 Following an unfortunate series of events, I have ended up at the Gestapo in Munich, but I am not doing badly here at all. 159 00:20:39,660 --> 00:20:44,980 I feel quite calm and await the things that are to come. 160 00:20:44,980 --> 00:20:50,990 Never have I drawn so much strength from my love for you as I do now. 161 00:20:50,990 --> 00:20:56,430 It feels as though I am very close to you. I see you before me. 162 00:20:56,430 --> 00:21:06,990 I feel your love in me and my love in you. And I'm so happy because I know that this love is indestructible. 163 00:21:06,990 --> 00:21:12,650 Even if you cannot understand why I'm being held in this cell. Stay calm. 164 00:21:12,650 --> 00:21:17,420 Stay calm and don't worry. I am being treated well. 165 00:21:17,420 --> 00:21:24,850 I am not finding life in the cells about. And the children, I see them in my mind. 166 00:21:24,850 --> 00:21:31,920 One after another. So sweet, half free and wonderfully innocent. 167 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:41,060 What darling creatures you have borne me. My darling wife. My love for you often rises beyond measure. 168 00:21:41,060 --> 00:21:48,450 I am unendingly grateful to you. I want to live with you and the children. 169 00:21:48,450 --> 00:23:04,610 With all my love. Bristol. Some. 170 00:23:04,610 --> 00:24:12,760 Amos. My wife. 171 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:24,900 It's nice to see you smile. 172 00:24:24,900 --> 00:25:33,780 This. Oh. 173 00:25:33,780 --> 00:25:48,720 Oh, I. Another beautiful. 174 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,650 Thank you so much for sharing these. It really is wonderful to see this. 175 00:25:52,650 --> 00:25:59,010 We should say that the full video is available on the torch website and also on the White Rose Project Web site. 176 00:25:59,010 --> 00:26:06,030 So pleased to have a look at the full performance. It's now time to go to some audience questions. 177 00:26:06,030 --> 00:26:12,680 And we have some really interesting ones come in from the public. So thank you very much for sharing those today. 178 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:22,430 One I'd like to start off with is a slightly blunt one, but why has it taken so long for the White Rose text to be translated into English? 179 00:26:22,430 --> 00:26:29,220 And what is. You know, what else can you say? Well, there's still a huge amount of work to do. 180 00:26:29,220 --> 00:26:34,950 We've translated a tiny, tiny handful of masses of material. 181 00:26:34,950 --> 00:26:42,000 And also, it's important to say that the additions that are published in German, I'm not always full editions. 182 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:51,840 So there is still archival material there that there's been some really meticulous editing and scholarship of these German editions. 183 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:58,470 I think partly, you know, now that the copyright is elapsed, it just makes things a lot easier, practically. 184 00:26:58,470 --> 00:27:03,990 But it's also, I think, to do with the reception of the white rose in a sort of English speaking context, 185 00:27:03,990 --> 00:27:13,590 that this isn't always well, this hasn't always been a kind of an easy story to integrate into narratives of the third race. 186 00:27:13,590 --> 00:27:19,800 That's certainly a part of kind of cultural capital and on our consciousness of that period. 187 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:26,610 But, you know, I hope I hope that we've made a start. And I hope that we'll be able to kind of make make more headway. 188 00:27:26,610 --> 00:27:31,830 Certainly working on this again next year. So my follow up question was, what next? 189 00:27:31,830 --> 00:27:35,610 So it sounds like there's more to come. Yes, more to come. Yeah, great. 190 00:27:35,610 --> 00:27:41,340 There we go. Well, we'll leave them hanging. Tentatively. 191 00:27:41,340 --> 00:27:45,660 Another great question that's come in is is about the work with some solera. 192 00:27:45,660 --> 00:27:54,780 And so this being a professional vocal ensemble, and you've already elaborated really helpfully that what you guys got from that book. 193 00:27:54,780 --> 00:28:00,630 Could you say a little bit more about the collaboration and how that how that worked for you as a group? 194 00:28:00,630 --> 00:28:07,830 Yeah, well, it was I think, firstly, it is a great opportunity for our singers to do something different. 195 00:28:07,830 --> 00:28:13,830 And the majority of the work that we do in performance, we're on our own. 196 00:28:13,830 --> 00:28:23,490 And as much as we can kind of try and choreograph and dramatise things, we don't have other people to play off or other characters to work with. 197 00:28:23,490 --> 00:28:30,810 So this is an opportunity for us to explore that more performative aspect. 198 00:28:30,810 --> 00:28:37,020 And I think, yeah, some of the ways we did that, as I said, talking about the roles of the choir and the relationship, 199 00:28:37,020 --> 00:28:49,530 the readers and this kind of large, large scale kind of arch where the choir can regains its narrative agency throughout the throughout the programme. 200 00:28:49,530 --> 00:28:56,100 And yeah, I mean, I think that the singers who were also just really they didn't quite know what they were getting into. 201 00:28:56,100 --> 00:29:03,830 And, you know, and we're really moved and struck by the story and and a lot of them afterwards, 202 00:29:03,830 --> 00:29:09,120 although I know it really did really experience it, something special. 203 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:18,120 And since then, I was actually our last concert pre lockdown and have no thinking back to it very, very fondly as well. 204 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,720 Well, let's hope that we will have concerts again very soon. 205 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:28,920 So I'm hearing you speak to the young people that were part of the white rose and the people we've 206 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:35,130 spoken about today as part of the group and the young people that are part of the ensemble as well. 207 00:29:35,130 --> 00:29:39,000 There must be some resonance there. I could imagine where, you know, 208 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:45,210 people people find links that they otherwise you speak about them feeling very moved and not knowing what they got themselves into, 209 00:29:45,210 --> 00:29:49,050 but that it could be an overwhelming experience. 210 00:29:49,050 --> 00:29:53,850 But sounds like a nobody. Overall, a positive. Yeah, definitely. 211 00:29:53,850 --> 00:30:01,650 And I think it's something that helped it feel I feel collaborative and and for 212 00:30:01,650 --> 00:30:07,410 the readers to meet the singers and for us to actually work on it together. 213 00:30:07,410 --> 00:30:14,970 Yeah, I think that in that process and then beyond that, just knowing that a lot of the members themselves are actually the same age, 214 00:30:14,970 --> 00:30:22,310 if not a bit younger than than our singers and the students that really brought it all home very strongly. 215 00:30:22,310 --> 00:30:28,590 Yeah. And got another aspect of that was that some of the readers were also the translators from the project. 216 00:30:28,590 --> 00:30:30,540 And so there was this I think, you know, 217 00:30:30,540 --> 00:30:37,230 one of the things that we've certainly felt all the way through is that this wasn't this wasn't asked devising a programme, 218 00:30:37,230 --> 00:30:40,860 doing a concert and then and then saying, you know, great, well done us. 219 00:30:40,860 --> 00:30:45,730 We've created something and we don't need to sort of think about it again. You know, this is a kind of ongoing. 220 00:30:45,730 --> 00:30:53,830 Collaboration. And this is a programme that can shift, as we know, as we work on tax dollars. 221 00:30:53,830 --> 00:30:56,920 As Tom and Sunstar think about music. 222 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:04,710 And so I think one of the things that could be really exciting to do could be to talk with the translators, you know, 223 00:31:04,710 --> 00:31:13,090 have singers and translators and performers all talking together because the translators brought to the readings something really special. 224 00:31:13,090 --> 00:31:20,050 You know, nobody reads more closely than a translator, and they really knew these tax. 225 00:31:20,050 --> 00:31:26,920 They had done an incredible amount of really sensitive work on them and a lot of research to do justice to them. 226 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:32,750 So that was that was also, from my perspective, a great part of what we what we were able to do. 227 00:31:32,750 --> 00:31:40,150 It sounds like it links exactly with how you open this talk, where he talks about, you know, the typical way that a project, 228 00:31:40,150 --> 00:31:45,790 that research project could have been approached was actually what you've done here is truly co create. 229 00:31:45,790 --> 00:31:52,180 So therefore, you can't actually almost predict what the end point is because of all the partners involved, which is scary. 230 00:31:52,180 --> 00:31:59,350 How is that research? It's really you find it's really exciting. 231 00:31:59,350 --> 00:32:03,550 Yeah, I know. No, it's great. I mean, I have to say, 232 00:32:03,550 --> 00:32:08,470 one of the high points of my career so far has been this project and working 233 00:32:08,470 --> 00:32:16,610 with these students and and being able to not only translate and supervise, 234 00:32:16,610 --> 00:32:22,990 you know, I wasn't teaching them. I was supervising their their work and they made the decisions. 235 00:32:22,990 --> 00:32:32,470 But to be able to then here that work alongside these incredibly, incredibly performed pieces of music was. 236 00:32:32,470 --> 00:32:36,400 Yeah. I mean. Yeah. Scary but exciting. 237 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,180 Scary but exciting. That's true. It's different to writing a monograph. I would imagine. 238 00:32:40,180 --> 00:32:41,890 Yeah. Of course. 239 00:32:41,890 --> 00:32:49,540 With the methodologies and the project as you brought it together and having a public performance of course then the other element is bringing in, 240 00:32:49,540 --> 00:32:52,660 you know, who whomever would would want to come and see it. 241 00:32:52,660 --> 00:33:00,100 So the opportunity to share it. As you said, you talked about, of course, it came out of copyright, but also the reception of this material. 242 00:33:00,100 --> 00:33:06,880 How do you think that could be? Would it be an ongoing part of your project, do you think? 243 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:13,630 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's interesting. So the students who've been working on the translations this year have been sending in feedback. 244 00:33:13,630 --> 00:33:19,690 And one of the questions that that I asked them was what what do you hope happens to your translations? 245 00:33:19,690 --> 00:33:24,400 And overwhelmingly, they say, you know, we hope that people who don't know this story, 246 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,940 this this chapter of German history, we hope that they can learn about it, 247 00:33:28,940 --> 00:33:35,650 but that they can learn about it through these texts, through the voices of these of these really incredible, 248 00:33:35,650 --> 00:33:41,890 but also very accessible, you know, in some senses completely normal young people. 249 00:33:41,890 --> 00:33:45,490 You know, they go to parties, they go to wine bars, they go to concerts. 250 00:33:45,490 --> 00:33:49,750 They complain about how much homework they have you, but they are completely normal. 251 00:33:49,750 --> 00:33:58,280 My experience is normal students. But but who do you know who are doing incredible, incredible things? 252 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,330 So it's also the opportunity there. 253 00:34:00,330 --> 00:34:08,140 As you say, about where things are being more well known, perhaps curricular opportunities, you know, in schools and what have you. 254 00:34:08,140 --> 00:34:14,530 And actually, before this event started, we bumped into one of the curators here at the Ashmolean outside, 255 00:34:14,530 --> 00:34:18,190 Anya Ober, and she said, I'm rushing home to listen to this event. 256 00:34:18,190 --> 00:34:24,640 So hello, Anya, because, of course, somebody from Germany, she knows this story very well. 257 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:29,000 But in British context, perhaps it's not so well known. 258 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:36,850 No, that's true. I mean, but also the three of the project's student translator so far, I think three are German natives. 259 00:34:36,850 --> 00:34:44,200 And so that's been great. Also, as part of our work, you know, and I think the any other thing to say really about the audience experience, 260 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:51,250 at least for the event that we put on it, was that they were, for the most part, kind of really dropped in the deep end. 261 00:34:51,250 --> 00:34:53,980 If they didn't know anything about the white race, 262 00:34:53,980 --> 00:35:03,670 then they went straight into this hearing directly from these from their their readings and quite private and intimate letters and diary entries. 263 00:35:03,670 --> 00:35:08,020 And that I think what we wanted to try and get across, particularly for those people, 264 00:35:08,020 --> 00:35:15,280 was rather than telling the story and a kind of narrative way or giving them actually too much context even, 265 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:21,100 was that they would get an insight into the story and then and then go away and learn more, because, you know, 266 00:35:21,100 --> 00:35:25,900 there's only so much we can pack into an event and actually going for that kind of 267 00:35:25,900 --> 00:35:32,540 dramatic and more human sized room rather than all of the surrounding history. 268 00:35:32,540 --> 00:35:37,650 There's a way to give it some kind of impact and immediacy. 269 00:35:37,650 --> 00:35:42,160 It sounds like the strength really, though, was the giving them a platform for their voices, 270 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:47,890 even though they're not here anymore rather than speaking for them. So. That's quite a different approach. 271 00:35:47,890 --> 00:35:53,320 You know, from from other projects, I wondered if we could move on. 272 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:59,380 So somebody is asked, what are the common themes running through the letters and the diaries of the Boy Rose members? 273 00:35:59,380 --> 00:36:06,460 Is there anything surprising you mentioned about people complaining about homework, something going and going out to concerts and balls? 274 00:36:06,460 --> 00:36:13,690 I mean, we hope we all will be able to do that again soon. But was there anything else you'd be able to share with us? 275 00:36:13,690 --> 00:36:23,830 There is. I mean, especially in the in the last letters, there is a kind of a very acute sense of faith. 276 00:36:23,830 --> 00:36:31,920 They had varying degrees of of kind of intensity when it came to that kind of personal faith and religion. 277 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:38,380 But something that does come out again and again and those in those later letters is 278 00:36:38,380 --> 00:36:46,390 kind of profound sense of the presence of God in their lives and in their actions. 279 00:36:46,390 --> 00:36:51,010 So that's something that's kind of I think that surprised a lot of the student translators. 280 00:36:51,010 --> 00:36:59,290 Actually, it's it's very candid. But also, I mean, you know that they're also writing to family members. 281 00:36:59,290 --> 00:37:03,640 And so there is also a kind of sense of of comforting. 282 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:12,340 And, you know, it's not they're not just writing for themselves that they're writing to someone else who is who who's going to be left behind. 283 00:37:12,340 --> 00:37:14,350 And of course, you mentioned, Tom, 284 00:37:14,350 --> 00:37:21,980 when we were talking at the beginning about how the diaries and the letters seemed to be like prayers and, you know. 285 00:37:21,980 --> 00:37:26,640 But is that something that you felt when you were working with materials? Well, yeah, I think so. 286 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:33,460 And I mean, it is maybe too much for that kind of reduction to say that it's blowing these line between the 287 00:37:33,460 --> 00:37:37,550 kind of sacred and secular because they weren't have been necessarily thinking in that way. 288 00:37:37,550 --> 00:37:48,230 But I think the example that we had at the Bon Hoffer Prayer and and Veles letter really shows that in those kind of final moments 289 00:37:48,230 --> 00:37:55,450 that the two overlap and people are some private kind of spirituality is also linking to what's kind of nearest and dearest. 290 00:37:55,450 --> 00:38:01,290 And when they're writing to their to their families and praying that these these things all merge and overlap. 291 00:38:01,290 --> 00:38:10,060 And it's much more as a kind of fluid part of their experience at that time. 292 00:38:10,060 --> 00:38:15,940 So we've got a question here. There's a wonderful research and beautifully evoked by the concert. 293 00:38:15,940 --> 00:38:25,630 What challenges did you face in translating these texts and setting this emotive music to this emotive material, to music? 294 00:38:25,630 --> 00:38:30,670 You've talked about the very positive things. What are the challenges? 295 00:38:30,670 --> 00:38:37,690 Well, I think one thing, though, is that the pieces that we performed, none of them actually set the tax from the UN. 296 00:38:37,690 --> 00:38:44,640 So they were all existing, existing works that were kind of interspersed and juxtaposed with the readings themselves. 297 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,920 I don't think much of the challenges of translation. Yeah. 298 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:58,540 I mean, again, this is the who's the student speaking, but also my observation of them working, which is a really rewarding thing. 299 00:38:58,540 --> 00:39:06,550 It's funny. Sometimes the biggest translation challenges are things that are completely, you know, seemingly mundane. 300 00:39:06,550 --> 00:39:13,390 A particular challenge with the letters this year was, you know, how to start and how to end them, because there are things that sometimes in German, 301 00:39:13,390 --> 00:39:18,880 some perfectly natural and you put it into a kind of English equivalent and it's just sounds ridiculous. 302 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:26,350 There was also the way the translation seminars often work is that we spend 20 minutes discussing 303 00:39:26,350 --> 00:39:32,140 one word only to come back to the original choice that we had at the beginning of the discussion. 304 00:39:32,140 --> 00:39:41,380 And that's an important part of it. But we spent a very long time talking about the word Austintown Whoof, which is Munich East Station, 305 00:39:41,380 --> 00:39:51,490 which is where Villy and Hansen Alexander left from to go to the they did a tour of duty on the Eastern Front in the summer of 1942. 306 00:39:51,490 --> 00:39:58,990 And so the students were translating Veles Diary, which is a series of very short entries and that sort of Osbourn Hall. 307 00:39:58,990 --> 00:40:04,390 And then what time they left and where they went and who they were with just 20 minutes or so. 308 00:40:04,390 --> 00:40:09,520 How do we say Munich, Munich, East Munich station station? 309 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:13,430 It matters that it's the east station because they're going to the east. 310 00:40:13,430 --> 00:40:18,450 And, you know, that's you know, that doesn't seem like a very exciting example. 311 00:40:18,450 --> 00:40:23,620 But but that's sort of where some of this work actually actually has to be done. 312 00:40:23,620 --> 00:40:26,920 And then there are much kind of bigger ethical questions about, you know, 313 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:35,350 translating individual's private correspondence and how to do that responsibly and ethically and and 314 00:40:35,350 --> 00:40:46,390 how to create also as authentic a voice as possible allowing for the fact that we are shifting it. 315 00:40:46,390 --> 00:40:50,130 That very nicely leads onto something I want to pick up on, actually, 316 00:40:50,130 --> 00:40:54,990 because one of the questions we've had is about a bridging, of course, you know, that sort of thing. 317 00:40:54,990 --> 00:40:58,840 You've touched on it there already. Of course you'll translating. 318 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:05,970 So what are often quite private things? Is there anything that you you think actually that's too private? 319 00:41:05,970 --> 00:41:10,200 We don't share that in a public context. Does it come to that? 320 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:16,080 Yes or no? But only really by virtue of the fact that we're translating published sources. 321 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:23,910 Right. So there's as it were, somebody has already taken the decision of what to publish and what not to publish. 322 00:41:23,910 --> 00:41:29,850 So not really. But I think certainly at some point in the future, we end up doing more archival work with the project, 323 00:41:29,850 --> 00:41:36,810 which I think will be exciting, that absolutely we would need to think very carefully about how that would work, 324 00:41:36,810 --> 00:41:45,480 because, you know, part of what's exciting about this project and moving is these are real people and these are real people whose family members are, 325 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:49,830 to an extent still with us and who need some kind of agency. 326 00:41:49,830 --> 00:41:57,300 And that's also, I think that there is an interesting moment in some of the readings where they've almost it's not 327 00:41:57,300 --> 00:42:02,880 that they've they've been censored or myself censored because they knew that they were getting read. 328 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:11,510 And. And that is certainly kind of some of the more romantic letters you can read between the lines. 329 00:42:11,510 --> 00:42:17,310 And I think that's that's also intriguing for the audience and for the listener that 330 00:42:17,310 --> 00:42:25,740 there is this space to to kind of imagine some of those private things as well. 331 00:42:25,740 --> 00:42:30,420 There's also the other element that makes this even more important, 332 00:42:30,420 --> 00:42:34,580 the fact that they are personal, you know, they're the voices of these individuals. 333 00:42:34,580 --> 00:42:40,020 So it is the strength of to you naturally led onto another question, 334 00:42:40,020 --> 00:42:44,070 which is always the way which is somebody has asked already of the family members 335 00:42:44,070 --> 00:42:49,110 or descendants or relatives of those individuals involved in the project, 336 00:42:49,110 --> 00:42:51,900 or could they be in the future? Do you think so? 337 00:42:51,900 --> 00:43:00,000 This year, the White Rose Project has partnered thanks to talk with the White Rose Foundation, Stone and Munich. 338 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:09,930 And I went I was very lucky to go for a visit in November and very generously Marcus Morrell, 339 00:43:09,930 --> 00:43:13,830 the nephew of Alexander Morrell and also Wolfgang Whooper, 340 00:43:13,830 --> 00:43:21,360 the son of Professor Kurt Huberta, very generously gave of their time and their hospitality. 341 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:29,970 And so I was able to talk with them about, you know, really about what their views of what we were doing are, 342 00:43:29,970 --> 00:43:36,900 because, you know, they they have to, in a sense, carry this torch. 343 00:43:36,900 --> 00:43:48,510 And so it was very important and for me that they should also have some kind of say, you know, at some level in this. 344 00:43:48,510 --> 00:43:51,870 And so that was an incredibly moving experience, I have to say. 345 00:43:51,870 --> 00:43:57,590 I hope I hope that they'll be able to be involved in some way in the future. 346 00:43:57,590 --> 00:44:05,430 That's pretty hard to see that you've made that connexion and that that the foundation is is that in order to help you do that, 347 00:44:05,430 --> 00:44:09,810 you have another question, and it's about the essay competition. 348 00:44:09,810 --> 00:44:12,150 So apparently there was an essay competition run this year. 349 00:44:12,150 --> 00:44:19,590 Katie says for a secondary age pupils in which they were asked to reflect upon what we can learn from the White Rose Group. 350 00:44:19,590 --> 00:44:25,110 What ideas came out of this? Perhaps you could share some that these were these were incredible. 351 00:44:25,110 --> 00:44:27,540 So this is the very first time that we've run a competition like this. 352 00:44:27,540 --> 00:44:34,500 We partnered with the Oxford German network, which runs an annual national competition, the Oxford German Olympiad. 353 00:44:34,500 --> 00:44:42,210 And we had around 60 entries from, I think, 45 schools across the UK. 354 00:44:42,210 --> 00:44:58,230 Overwhelmingly, the responses drew parallels with contemporary times, particularly with regard to the climate crisis. 355 00:44:58,230 --> 00:45:03,750 So there were some kind of parallels being drawn between Sophie Scholl and Grétar Tamberg. 356 00:45:03,750 --> 00:45:08,560 But there was this kind of really, really encouraging, I should say, sense, you know, 357 00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:15,450 a sense that that change is possible in the world and that the white rose is an 358 00:45:15,450 --> 00:45:25,650 inspiring example of using passive resistance and peaceful means to make change. 359 00:45:25,650 --> 00:45:29,400 Thank you so much. And I must say, this is not a question. 360 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:33,660 It's a comment from Alexander Huber says, Funny to hear about the erst Bahnhof. 361 00:45:33,660 --> 00:45:39,300 It's about a mile away from where I grew up in Munich. Thanks. Thanks so much for tuning in. 362 00:45:39,300 --> 00:45:43,430 That is, sadly, all we have time for in terms of questions. Thank you so much. 363 00:45:43,430 --> 00:45:45,360 And sorry if I hadn't been able to get to you. 364 00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:55,120 And today, what I would like to do, however, is just, you know, have your final thoughts, because as we've touched on already, 365 00:45:55,120 --> 00:46:02,510 what is really coming out from what you're both saying is that young people and students really are at the heart of this project. 366 00:46:02,510 --> 00:46:10,690 Yeah, I mean, certainly from from our text and translation perspective and historical perspective, students were at the heart of the white rose. 367 00:46:10,690 --> 00:46:15,940 And the more I work on this material as a researcher, but also as a teacher, 368 00:46:15,940 --> 00:46:23,710 the more convinced I am that we should have students at the heart of of translating this material. 369 00:46:23,710 --> 00:46:30,940 And students at the heart of telling the story, actually. And I think that also came into the programming. 370 00:46:30,940 --> 00:46:36,760 And we wanted to include a piece by a young composer and peers. 371 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:44,770 Connor Kennedy is a bass in the choir and he's also a brilliant composer and studying actually here at the moment for a detail and composition. 372 00:46:44,770 --> 00:46:49,000 And the final clip that we've got is his setting. 373 00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:54,250 Blessed are the peacemakers, which splits the choir into two parts. 374 00:46:54,250 --> 00:47:06,610 And it was really like a kind of epilogue to the programme after the kind of high drama of the Philip Moore and the final readings and 375 00:47:06,610 --> 00:47:16,560 a moment or so where we could talk a little bit of choreography and join forces with the readers towards the end of the programme. 376 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:25,960 Wonderful. Well, before we go to that clip, what remains for me is to think in a huge way or speakers here today, 377 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:31,090 not only because it's brilliant to be out of the House. It's brilliant to be in the Ashmolean. 378 00:47:31,090 --> 00:47:36,700 Thank you to the film and sound crew and their colleagues in the Ashmolean for making this happen. 379 00:47:36,700 --> 00:47:42,720 Thank you, Alex and Tom. Thank you very much. Thank you. So next week, we'll have another live show. 380 00:47:42,720 --> 00:47:49,150 Thursday, five o'clock again. It is imagined journeys and in conversation between Professor Marion Turner of 381 00:47:49,150 --> 00:47:54,040 the English faculty here at the University of Oxford and also Matthew Neal. 382 00:47:54,040 --> 00:48:00,670 Matthew has his book out at the moment called Pilgrims' and Marion's book Is Chaucer a European Life. 383 00:48:00,670 --> 00:48:05,480 So tune in again next week where we start at five p.m. Sorry again for the delay today. 384 00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:09,760 It's our first in-person one. I hope you agree. It was definitely worth the wait. 385 00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:14,830 The Boite Rose Project is an amazing project about an amazing subject. 386 00:48:14,830 --> 00:48:50,250 So thank you all so much for joining us. And I hope you enjoy the final clip. 387 00:48:50,250 --> 00:52:41,025 As.