1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:07,570 The Supreme Court has ruled that a group of private health be treated as a rising, 2 00:00:07,570 --> 00:00:16,030 sharply criticising decision means entire country meeting on Friday, the 18th of February. 3 00:00:16,030 --> 00:00:20,470 The Supreme Court announced its judgement on the case, Uber vs. Atlant, 4 00:00:20,470 --> 00:00:30,160 rejecting UVAs appeal and declaring that two of its drivers, Yasseen Aslam and James Farrar, must be classified as workers. 5 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:39,330 This was the end of five years of legal challenges, with Uber taking its appeal to the highest court in the land for Yasseen Azlan. 6 00:00:39,330 --> 00:00:45,820 It was seven years in the making, and he finds it hard to articulate his thoughts and emotions that day. 7 00:00:45,820 --> 00:00:55,520 I mean, it is a long, hard day. Even though, like the whole state, like since we won in 2016, I was always confident we're gonna agree. 8 00:00:55,520 --> 00:01:00,910 Yeah. But in the back of the head, like you still there's still a bit of uncertainty what's going to happen. 9 00:01:00,910 --> 00:01:06,610 And this Supreme Court will make or break it like you're gonna win or we're gonna lose. 10 00:01:06,610 --> 00:01:11,340 And if we lose, we're you know, we're done. You know, it is you know, it puts us back to square one. 11 00:01:11,340 --> 00:01:16,480 Like, this is seven years of my life. I mean, it's just so hard to describe. 12 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:25,870 Everything happened so quickly and so fast. But I still remember, like, when they were playing and watching outside and the justice said, appeal this. 13 00:01:25,870 --> 00:01:33,950 Misbah up to then I was my mind was preoccupied. We were kind to be getting calls coming in from media and I wanted to keep myself occupied. 14 00:01:33,950 --> 00:01:40,630 You know, like I said, if we average people, it's all about emotion. Everything I wanted to sing is never show weakness. 15 00:01:40,630 --> 00:01:44,380 And even though we had our ups and downs, it always seemed. 16 00:01:44,380 --> 00:01:54,430 So my way around that would think about it and try and work. But the minute that we heard appeal dismissed unanimously dismisses as appeal. 17 00:01:54,430 --> 00:02:02,260 I looked at James quickly, like, you know, like. And then. Yes. You know, there is yes. 18 00:02:02,260 --> 00:02:10,000 And we're just like, yeah. But yeah, I mean, yeah, I it's just I thought I just can't find a word to describe it. 19 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:18,580 I'm Rowby Waran and this is the Fair Work podcast. A dive into the life of the people working within the gig economy. 20 00:02:18,580 --> 00:02:24,910 This episode looks at contracts and in it we hear from Yasseen Aslam, 21 00:02:24,910 --> 00:02:32,860 the former Uber driver who successfully took them to court over his classification as a self-employed independent contractor. 22 00:02:32,860 --> 00:02:37,820 A ruling that has implications for the gig economy around the world. 23 00:02:37,820 --> 00:02:44,740 Interviewed for this episode took place in two parts. One before the final ruling on one immediately after. 24 00:02:44,740 --> 00:02:53,750 In it, we hear Yasseen personal account of war is like taking on a multinational corporation organising gig workers in the UK. 25 00:02:53,750 --> 00:03:10,160 And what made him do it? My name's Yasseen Özlem, so I'm one of the claimants against which will fall in 2015, 26 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:17,710 so I actually come into this industry back in 2006 when I was made redundant in my I.T. job. 27 00:03:17,710 --> 00:03:23,650 Uber arrived in the UK in 2012. That's when I first registered with them. 28 00:03:23,650 --> 00:03:29,270 Yes, he was one of the first 100 drivers to sign up for the Uber platform when it first came to London. 29 00:03:29,270 --> 00:03:34,240 And at the time, he and many other drivers just didn't think it would work. 30 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:38,350 It was like we just didn't understand how they're going to do it without a human. 31 00:03:38,350 --> 00:03:39,960 How it does not work. 32 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:48,010 But many drivers were excited about the potential impact that these new technologies held and their ability to make the distribution of work fairer. 33 00:03:48,010 --> 00:03:58,430 One of the problem we have at the traditional cab office was that there was a human like a controller who would dispatch jobs to you. 34 00:03:58,430 --> 00:04:04,420 There's a favoured in system. And what we find in this industry, there's a lot of discrimination. 35 00:04:04,420 --> 00:04:10,720 One thing that really attract people to Uber was the fact that there is no controller. 36 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,920 And you just, you know, like you just turn up on you work when you want. 37 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:19,420 You call home when you want. So it's that element of flexibility and the freedom, you know. 38 00:04:19,420 --> 00:04:28,870 So I didn't really face too much problem at the previous cab office, but there were a lot of drivers that, you know, 39 00:04:28,870 --> 00:04:35,540 had a hard and you'll get a lot comptrollers where they request to try and buy them cigarettes by them, Madonna, Kabab or something. 40 00:04:35,540 --> 00:04:39,030 And, you know, so if you weren't doing that, they will just make your day hard. 41 00:04:39,030 --> 00:04:42,910 They'll give you [INAUDIBLE] jobs, you know, they'll, you know, like so. 42 00:04:42,910 --> 00:04:47,830 So the point was, if you could get the controller onside and you're willing to feed the controller, 43 00:04:47,830 --> 00:04:53,170 you know, you will get look at where when you come over to Uber is a completely different system. 44 00:04:53,170 --> 00:04:56,800 There's no favouritism and stuff like that in the beginning. 45 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:05,410 Yasseen didn't fully grasp the implications surrounding Uber, the use of technology, nor its potential impacts on the private market. 46 00:05:05,410 --> 00:05:09,070 But, yeah, I mean, the point is, when we first started and yeah, it just clicked. 47 00:05:09,070 --> 00:05:13,750 So for me it was nothing different. It was just another Campbell is just give me work to do. 48 00:05:13,750 --> 00:05:18,250 That's the way I saw it. But the good thing about this was I was in control. 49 00:05:18,250 --> 00:05:25,060 I didn't have to tell them that I'm coming to work at this time or I want to go home at this time or, 50 00:05:25,060 --> 00:05:28,440 you know, like someone ringing me saying, put your foot down. We're running late. 51 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:32,230 We've got so many jobs waiting. Hurry up, you know, like that kind of stuff. 52 00:05:32,230 --> 00:05:36,910 I didn't have all that, so I was in. So that was to me was a good element. 53 00:05:36,910 --> 00:05:43,960 And that's what attracts a lot of drivers to it. But what we found is over time is all those things. 54 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:50,230 The control element started changing. We then started seeing the other side and that was like, look, you know, 55 00:05:50,230 --> 00:05:59,290 we were running away from all these humans, but we're now being controlled by technology and all these algorithm. 56 00:05:59,290 --> 00:06:03,990 So, for example, when I picked up a passenger, you know, he would rate me five dollars. 57 00:06:03,990 --> 00:06:08,710 So in order to stay on the platform, I have to maintain a high rating. 58 00:06:08,710 --> 00:06:16,540 So just to give you an average example, to stay on Uber X platform, you need to have a rating of four point four. 59 00:06:16,540 --> 00:06:21,790 You know, like we we were getting drivers getting deactivated because someone left them a bad feedback. 60 00:06:21,790 --> 00:06:31,040 So we're now being we're now at the mercy of the rating system so that like a pressure on us indirectly, which we didn't realise. 61 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:36,580 I've seen off was what we saw. So although we are running away from the human controller saying this is better, 62 00:06:36,580 --> 00:06:45,040 what we're now seeing is a hidden human behind the app controlling us and doing things to make us work a certain way. 63 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:54,310 This creeping sense of control and the power that the app played in shaping the lives of workers would lay the groundwork for a subsequent legal case. 64 00:06:54,310 --> 00:07:02,200 Yasseen says there were numerous points where it became increasingly prevalent that the freedom he felt had limits. 65 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:09,830 One evening on a busy night in London, Yasseen received a request at one a.m. to pick up free men outside a bar. 66 00:07:09,830 --> 00:07:18,040 Now they were quite drunk. Soon they got into the car and made some kind of a racist comment towards me and I sort of, 67 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,550 because I got this experience of driving and dealing with customers. 68 00:07:21,550 --> 00:07:29,880 You saw 10 and I'd rather not go ahead if I could, you know, cause cause I mean, it's sort of like a gut feeling. 69 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:35,200 So I knew this gonna escalate. So anyway, I just was very polite to those guidelines that look. 70 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:39,470 Yes, if you could, I'm happy to drop you off from wherever you go. 71 00:07:39,470 --> 00:07:48,520 It just needs to be polite and that's it. So as we are driving towards Fullam High Street, they just don't give giving me abuse one after another. 72 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:54,940 So I knew that if I carry on driving badly once we get out, you know, like this built up area. 73 00:07:54,940 --> 00:08:03,440 And if it did, if something did kick off or something happen, you know, I will you know, I was all alone in my car alone with three people. 74 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:06,440 And there's no one to help me in any shape or form. 75 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:14,360 So it's always best to end the journey and stop it in an area where least I could get some help if I needed to. 76 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:20,510 So I stopped on the high street because you got cameras everywhere. So, you know, you're being watched and everything is OK. 77 00:08:20,510 --> 00:08:26,090 So I told these guys that, look, I'm I'm not going to I'm refusing to take you because of their behaviour. 78 00:08:26,090 --> 00:08:30,200 And I go out my car and they wouldn't leave. Yes. 79 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:38,760 Include the police and the men finally left, after which he contacted Uber to tell them about the incident and why he cancelled the trip. 80 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,560 Uber didn't come back to me saying, you can't do that. You can't. 81 00:08:42,560 --> 00:08:50,390 Basically, what they're trying to say is I kicked people out of my car and if I ever do it again, I would be dismissed from the platform. 82 00:08:50,390 --> 00:09:00,550 So there's me, like potentially trying to, you know, limit my damage and, you know, and I'm getting worn for, you know, 83 00:09:00,550 --> 00:09:06,260 for or doing something that potentially could have, you know, I could have got beaten up or something bad could have happened. 84 00:09:06,260 --> 00:09:15,230 But I just done what my gut feeling was, was refused to take them further and they were welcome to book another cab and carry on from there. 85 00:09:15,230 --> 00:09:19,270 But I'm getting worn for doing that. 86 00:09:19,270 --> 00:09:27,550 As Yasseen became aware of the issues that many drivers were facing, he started to actively campaign for the rights of him and his fellow drivers. 87 00:09:27,550 --> 00:09:38,110 Forming an association of drivers in 2014 before joining GMB union in 2015 by his actions, didn't go unnoticed by Uber. 88 00:09:38,110 --> 00:09:44,080 One day in 2015, as he began to drive from his home in High Wycombe into central London, 89 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:48,750 he reached for his phone and open up, as he had done countless times before. 90 00:09:48,750 --> 00:09:55,450 And I try to log on and they wouldn't let me. So I thought maybe it might be a problem or a glitch or something. 91 00:09:55,450 --> 00:10:00,490 So I carried on driving all the way into London. Then I stopped again and tried again. 92 00:10:00,490 --> 00:10:05,700 And I kept on trying, trying. And then I stopped like once I got to central London. 93 00:10:05,700 --> 00:10:14,280 It didn't work. Also, I like technically an hour wasted. And my e-mail was saying, look, I can't log on what's happening. 94 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:21,130 Yeah. So then I drove back home again. But, you know, like in my head, I was thinking, like, you know, I need the money. 95 00:10:21,130 --> 00:10:28,840 I needed the money. That week I took three days off and I was back to work for a day, but I wasn't told that I'd been blocked from the app. 96 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:33,990 You know, I got deactivated when I first got the act, which I didn't do anything wrong. 97 00:10:33,990 --> 00:10:39,880 I got to activate it for my campaign. So, you know, like it put a US financially. 98 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:43,420 Know, I needed money and feeds us. Like what? Why can't log in. 99 00:10:43,420 --> 00:10:48,290 What do I do? What was I doing wrong? Did the customer make a complaint against me? 100 00:10:48,290 --> 00:10:54,790 I don't like all that kind of sort, but I can't remember. It's hard to explain that emotion, but it's like you just suddenly, you know, 101 00:10:54,790 --> 00:11:00,730 like you went to work and the door's locked or the chain to lock at your workplace and you can't get in. 102 00:11:00,730 --> 00:11:06,250 So I then arranged to meet one of the managers. So I went back into his office a week later. 103 00:11:06,250 --> 00:11:12,490 So the whole week I couldn't work. So I went into his office at a good long chat with the manager saying, look, come on. 104 00:11:12,490 --> 00:11:14,470 What does to wrong? 105 00:11:14,470 --> 00:11:22,150 And it is more like a way of trying to intimidate me to say, look, what you're doing is you're making good money, you're doing anyway. 106 00:11:22,150 --> 00:11:28,690 So why are you causing problems? You know, you should just get on, put your head down on work and you'll be OK. 107 00:11:28,690 --> 00:11:35,990 But if you're going to do you know, you're going to be concerned about other drivers and stuff like that, you're gonna lose your access. 108 00:11:35,990 --> 00:11:42,690 Yeah. And I didn't like the way they talk. Threatened me and their way to sort of send me a strong message. 109 00:11:42,690 --> 00:11:51,760 Yeah. So if anything, when I walked out that meeting, not more than I was even more motivated to do was doing, you know, to help close the gap. 110 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:58,450 I just didn't like the way they tried to bully me alongside the friends he received from Uber. 111 00:11:58,450 --> 00:12:04,490 Yes, he was spurred on by what he saw around him and the stories he heard from other drivers. 112 00:12:04,490 --> 00:12:09,570 He so many of his friends be deactivated and lose all or part of their livelihood. 113 00:12:09,570 --> 00:12:16,020 But what really home with a massive imbalance of power between drivers and the platform and the total 114 00:12:16,020 --> 00:12:22,680 lack of protections afforded to drivers in the face of countless cases of passengers beating drivers? 115 00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:32,880 What really concerns me, which was close to heart rheumy, was there's a lot of racism attack towards drivers and abuse. 116 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:42,910 So in a nutshell, you could see in my car, call me a, you know, like P.S. call me whatever you want to refer to my skin colour. 117 00:12:42,910 --> 00:12:45,030 Give me as much as you want. 118 00:12:45,030 --> 00:12:53,950 And then at the end of the journey, you couldn't put a one off and write a comment saying this was the worst driver ever and I want a full refund. 119 00:12:53,950 --> 00:12:59,310 Yes. And there's me that suffered all this abuse from you, maybe even physically assaulted by you. 120 00:12:59,310 --> 00:13:06,960 And then you was telling me, I'm not going. We'll have to give a refund to this customer because, you know, he made a complaint. 121 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:11,010 You know, I had no. And that was like to me, like, look, this can't be right. 122 00:13:11,010 --> 00:13:13,920 One particular story sticks out to Yacine. 123 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:20,850 When he got a call from a driver, he knew we'd been physically assaulted and he drove around his house to pay him a visit. 124 00:13:20,850 --> 00:13:26,770 So I went to see this guy is six years old, got assaulted by a passenger late night. 125 00:13:26,770 --> 00:13:35,270 And the police did come on to the scene and he's reported to the police. But then Uber sort of failed to cooperate with the police. 126 00:13:35,270 --> 00:13:41,410 And when I spoke to the driver again, I went to see him again down his house, swollen up. 127 00:13:41,410 --> 00:13:50,100 I asked him what was happening and he said, look, the police can't get out of the passenger because you haven't given him the details. 128 00:13:50,100 --> 00:13:55,440 Yeah. So I just don't have the time to go and chase up. The police answered, look, come on, this is not right. 129 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,810 I'll go with you unless report. 130 00:13:57,810 --> 00:14:03,720 Let's push the police and try and get something done because you can't have a person assaulted and then get away with it. 131 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,110 I mean, it's not it's not right. But he turned around and. 132 00:14:07,110 --> 00:14:10,810 Well, I and they still see in my head the way he said and he said it in our language. 133 00:14:10,810 --> 00:14:14,350 It's the same guy, a Pakistani guy. And he called me like son. 134 00:14:14,350 --> 00:14:18,840 He referred to me as Sunny, said, son. This is part of my job, you know. 135 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,600 So we're going to get punch and abuse, you know, the way he said it. 136 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:28,140 And it still fits my bed. Like, look, you know, this is not our job to get assaulted. 137 00:14:28,140 --> 00:14:32,070 It's not something we should be putting up with. Yeah. 138 00:14:32,070 --> 00:14:37,860 And that's my like a lot of people sort of lived with that assumption, thinking it's okay to receive abuse, 139 00:14:37,860 --> 00:14:41,910 it's OK to get physically attacked in their job and it's OK, but it's not OK. 140 00:14:41,910 --> 00:14:47,980 And the reason they have that mindset is the lack of support from the police, 141 00:14:47,980 --> 00:14:54,360 lack of support from operators like Luber so that they're happy to turn a blind eye to that. 142 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:58,080 So they're happy to allow that kind of abuse. And that's what we've been highlighting. 143 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:02,250 And that my passion really about this that got me really eager. 144 00:15:02,250 --> 00:15:05,550 So I didn't thought it every time I heard of a driver out right. 145 00:15:05,550 --> 00:15:09,930 To Uber saying, look, what action are you taken against this rider? 146 00:15:09,930 --> 00:15:14,040 And they would never come back. Yeah, but the point was they didn't really care. 147 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:37,900 And that was the tipping point for me. Because its drivers, partners, independent operators who run, but judges in London. 148 00:15:37,900 --> 00:15:45,250 They are the company's workers with rights, including the UK minimum wage as well as sickness. 149 00:15:45,250 --> 00:15:54,580 In 2016, Yasseen and his co claimant, James for our launched a case in the employment tribunal arguing that they should be classed as workers. 150 00:15:54,580 --> 00:15:57,280 A landmark case which they would go on to win. 151 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:04,300 Yasseen had already been trying to campaign for workers that had reached a point where he thought legal action was the only way forward. 152 00:16:04,300 --> 00:16:10,150 There were issues like I was actually trying to do what I can to big to fail. 153 00:16:10,150 --> 00:16:13,210 We were just talking to a brick wall. 154 00:16:13,210 --> 00:16:19,270 And like I said, it come to a stage where all the drivers was that we had so gave up thinking there's nothing we could do. 155 00:16:19,270 --> 00:16:25,720 But the actual circumstances surrounding the cases conception were largely due to a series of chance encounter. 156 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:33,580 I was speaking to a Guardian journalist at the time because he is talking to me about he's more interested in how we're organising Lubert roads. 157 00:16:33,580 --> 00:16:38,530 Yet an appeal board meeting. And I told him, well, I've got to activate it. 158 00:16:38,530 --> 00:16:45,070 So when I come out, you know, and the one thing I mentioned to you that time in that meeting with they had a problem with front. 159 00:16:45,070 --> 00:16:58,320 They weren't checking doctrine. So there was the issue in terms of like, you know, like, you know, like TFR where TFA was turning a blind eye. 160 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,660 So I highlighted that. I said, look, you shouldn't be concerned about me, 161 00:17:01,660 --> 00:17:08,230 be concerned about what your licence is to make sure that you're adhering to your licence condition. 162 00:17:08,230 --> 00:17:14,380 And they laughed at me. They laughed at me. So anyway, when I come out and I speak into this Guardian journalism, I mentioned to him that, look, 163 00:17:14,380 --> 00:17:22,060 if you you could upload a blank piece of paper and you insurance document and no one cheques it the computer, you would think, yes, that's OK. 164 00:17:22,060 --> 00:17:28,270 You uploaded a piece of paper that will Shoeb. That's your insurance document and you continue to it. 165 00:17:28,270 --> 00:17:38,200 So he then went and done his own independent research and they made their own insurance company called Free Now Cover, 166 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:43,630 and they managed to get a driver upload it. But I was involved in that and I got deactivated for that. 167 00:17:43,630 --> 00:17:49,210 So Lubert and reported me to counsel for London Transport for London and point me to the police. 168 00:17:49,210 --> 00:17:53,260 And I got arrested for it. I was only a whistleblower at the time. 169 00:17:53,260 --> 00:17:57,640 So I went into the police station. I competitive. I said, look, I didn't do anything wrong. 170 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:06,400 I had genuine insurance at the time. I had everything, you know, if any fraud were committed or any crime was committed, committed by Uber. 171 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,990 But anyway, they decided to drop the case after six months. No charges were ever brought. 172 00:18:10,990 --> 00:18:16,390 But that's where the case started because I was already speaking to James Farrow and we were talking to 173 00:18:16,390 --> 00:18:21,940 lead a plea day is the law firm who would go on to represent James Yasseen throughout their legal case. 174 00:18:21,940 --> 00:18:28,750 We were talking to lead a at that time of how we claim what could we do to make us look at it? 175 00:18:28,750 --> 00:18:32,830 And they looked at it. Look, there's something here. You definitely need to. 176 00:18:32,830 --> 00:18:39,880 The best thing to do is launch a case for the worker status. 177 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:44,950 Now, you know, like when I when we looked at this worker status, he answered all our problems. 178 00:18:44,950 --> 00:18:48,440 Now, there's a bit of confusion about workers that are slight. 179 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:56,380 Drivers don't tend to understand it. So you have self-employed, then you have the employees and then we have a limbo worker. 180 00:18:56,380 --> 00:19:01,540 So a self-employed person would be someone that has more control, like a plumber, electrician. 181 00:19:01,540 --> 00:19:04,450 You could set your own beds. You don't have any rights. 182 00:19:04,450 --> 00:19:10,600 But, you know, you could subcontract your work on your act is running your own business as an employee. 183 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:19,750 You have many rights. Like, for example, you get sick pay, maternity, paternity pension, you know, unfair dismissal, all that kind of stuff. 184 00:19:19,750 --> 00:19:24,090 We're in the middle. We have a limbo status within UK employment law. 185 00:19:24,090 --> 00:19:30,880 Lamby worker status is where an individual is classed as self-employed but is involved in running someone else's business. 186 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:37,190 He operates at a halfway house, allowing workers to access some of the privileges afforded to contracted employees. 187 00:19:37,190 --> 00:19:48,070 Now, what the limpy work does for us, unless a boob buddies accept the law and decided to obey the law and classify us as Lamby worker is decreasing. 188 00:19:48,070 --> 00:19:57,430 One is we have the right to under minimum wage. B we get holiday pay and C trade union recognition. 189 00:19:57,430 --> 00:20:01,210 That's all it is. Or what it unflustered. It put a floor on the market. 190 00:20:01,210 --> 00:20:06,520 Now for me as a driver, I don't care whether Uber has one million global workers. 191 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:13,900 I don't care whether they charge Tempy a mile or whether this child or Copano my old, what I care about, what goes into my pocket, what I do, 192 00:20:13,900 --> 00:20:20,300 what I know and assurance I want to get is when I go out to work, knowing that I'm gonna come home with something, 193 00:20:20,300 --> 00:20:25,200 not just go out all night, be sleeping in my car and coming back with no money. 194 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:30,050 I. See how it felt that first day going into court? 195 00:20:30,050 --> 00:20:35,960 Believe me, that was a nightmare for me because by this time everyone had left us. 196 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:43,500 More or less, you know, people sort of thinking we're just stupid people trying to fight a lost battle. 197 00:20:43,500 --> 00:20:49,160 Yeah. And nothing ever going to come out of this loop is going to bite the judge and all kind of stuff. 198 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:55,010 And that was the time when I actually the June 2016, I actually went into depression and breakdown. 199 00:20:55,010 --> 00:21:00,260 You know, mentally I was not well, financially, I had no source of income. 200 00:21:00,260 --> 00:21:06,650 I live in Iowa, comes out to go into London, is a whole week trial where I have to go in. 201 00:21:06,650 --> 00:21:11,540 I was cross-examined by Lubas barristers, you know, and it wasn't easy, was it? 202 00:21:11,540 --> 00:21:17,120 I mean, at that time of thinking, you know, did I really have to get myself into this? 203 00:21:17,120 --> 00:21:23,300 Why that why am I doing this? You know, like all those kind of question. But, you know, we did it. 204 00:21:23,300 --> 00:21:24,990 I mean, I had Jane. Jane had me. 205 00:21:24,990 --> 00:21:34,130 And so there's two working together, trying to fight the same cause, which really worked and help because if I'd known, maybe I would've done it. 206 00:21:34,130 --> 00:21:39,590 Maybe I'd have walked away. Long time ago. But, you know, because we took such. 207 00:21:39,590 --> 00:21:45,320 Because we suffer so much financially, mentally, you know, all kinds. 208 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,810 I just felt that I had to fight. 209 00:21:47,810 --> 00:21:55,420 If I walk away, it asked me, you know, I waited my life for the last three, four years or two years for doing what I'm doing. 210 00:21:55,420 --> 00:22:02,010 You know, I need to see it to. So it wasn't easy. 211 00:22:02,010 --> 00:22:25,960 It was really hard. But anyway, since when we got the verdict dumb, you know, that's when everything changed. 212 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:34,430 Her number five. After three, four. 213 00:22:34,430 --> 00:22:39,870 Don't forget, like when we were in court all week, it took about two or three months before we even got the wording. 214 00:22:39,870 --> 00:22:43,400 So, yeah, so it just everyone was happy. 215 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:53,210 It's not just like every single driver get a message from everyone and saying, well, you know, it was like finally we managed to take on lube. 216 00:22:53,210 --> 00:23:01,310 So we were the first people to technically without any resources to go in there, you know, and win. 217 00:23:01,310 --> 00:23:07,200 And then there's who. But they had like their policies, everyone telling them what to say. 218 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,240 We're just my average guys with no money, just enough money to get on the tube, 219 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:17,670 walk into the tribunal, sit there, get cross, but stand our ground and then grin. 220 00:23:17,670 --> 00:23:21,940 You know, it just is just amazing. It's amazing. But it's hard to describe that. 221 00:23:21,940 --> 00:23:27,710 But but what was sad today is, no, not immediately said they're gonna appeal it. 222 00:23:27,710 --> 00:23:32,030 So it wasn't like. Yeah. I mean, it's just just like we are really happy. 223 00:23:32,030 --> 00:23:45,360 But at the same time, it was like saying, look, this is not the end of it. It's just the start of something big. 224 00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:50,720 Being afraid my body might get hurt. 225 00:23:50,720 --> 00:24:08,910 I love stand up for your rights. Thank you, everyone. 226 00:24:08,910 --> 00:24:15,860 Yasseen and James would end up going through four separate court cases as Uber worked its way through the appeals process. 227 00:24:15,860 --> 00:24:21,820 But finally, in a unanimous decision, the Supreme Court ruled that within UK law, 228 00:24:21,820 --> 00:24:28,880 James and Yacine should be classified as Limn B Workers Club of Yasseen a few days after the Supreme 229 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:35,200 Court verdict and asked him about what it was like hearing that they had finally won their case. 230 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:39,740 And how he felt knowing that was finally over. So, yeah, it's just dominated like shock. 231 00:24:39,740 --> 00:24:43,520 But to be honest, I was. Even though, like, I was happy. 232 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:50,870 Overjoyed. But it's sort of like the next day are still. It's like it didn't really sink in, you know, like we won. 233 00:24:50,870 --> 00:24:56,810 You don't like it, just like it just seemed like it didn't happen. Know, because I don't know. 234 00:24:56,810 --> 00:25:03,180 I can't find a word because we went through [INAUDIBLE] and back overseas and it's just like subnets see justice, 235 00:25:03,180 --> 00:25:09,260 you know, it just seemed like it never you know, it's just like move that suddenly happens. 236 00:25:09,260 --> 00:25:13,580 But the main thing is, look, you know, we won. We've done it. Yeah. 237 00:25:13,580 --> 00:25:20,270 And it was worth it is worth it because it means I could now look to him, my kids, I know my family. 238 00:25:20,270 --> 00:25:26,570 You know, I went through a phase where I suffered depression, severe depression, 2016, you know, 239 00:25:26,570 --> 00:25:34,240 like I suffered financially, you know, and I constantly in my seven years into this cause. 240 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:42,720 And it wasn't a waste of time. But at the same time, it's just there's nothing better than knowing that you have something shoki. 241 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:44,210 And that is the most important thing. 242 00:25:44,210 --> 00:25:50,100 So it's like, you know, like you go into a fight, you train, you train and you train before you go into the fight. 243 00:25:50,100 --> 00:25:54,710 You don't know if you're gonna win unexcelled, but you train your hardest. And that was us. 244 00:25:54,710 --> 00:25:59,280 We trained we won every round and we knocked them out. We knocked out. 245 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:09,740 That's the main thing. You know, there were times two in the last seven years where I was down and I did question myself, like, why am I doing this? 246 00:26:09,740 --> 00:26:14,030 Don't forget, I left straight and why am I doing this? 247 00:26:14,030 --> 00:26:22,520 But then again, I owe it to the driver's community because even though I started this myself back in the days, 248 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:28,490 you know, they're the ones that were behind, you know, it's the people within ADC, you, ADC, you. 249 00:26:28,490 --> 00:26:34,620 It's the name of the union started by James Yasseen last year to represent private high drivers and curriers. 250 00:26:34,620 --> 00:26:43,670 You know, it's the people within ADC you that join because everyone talks about drivers not being organised, because they isolated whatever. 251 00:26:43,670 --> 00:26:45,960 But we actually smashed that apart. 252 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:56,820 And since Friday, since we won, you know, we just like signing people like like like as I mentioned to you earlier on, when he impune people and they, 253 00:26:56,820 --> 00:27:05,150 you know, and that shows up, people are no longer afraid and workers finally know that, look, normally, Adam, and you are willing to fight. 254 00:27:05,150 --> 00:27:13,610 Is there is justice. Thanks to Yasseen Aslam for sharing his story. 255 00:27:13,610 --> 00:27:24,220 A key question surrounding this case is what are the potential ramifications of this ruling for Uber drivers and workers in the entire gig economy? 256 00:27:24,220 --> 00:27:30,040 Kelly Housen is a postdoctoral researcher at the Fair Work Foundation. 257 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:39,980 I think there are a few implications and to a certain extent, we need to wait and see how things are going to play out with it. 258 00:27:39,980 --> 00:27:48,930 You know, Erga can do one of two things now. They can give the drivers more control over their rights of pay, their working hours. 259 00:27:48,930 --> 00:27:56,980 They contracts in order to actually make the the criteria for being self-employed 260 00:27:56,980 --> 00:28:05,650 or they need to comply with the regulations and protections for work. 261 00:28:05,650 --> 00:28:10,180 And my understanding is that there are a lot of driving cases pending now. 262 00:28:10,180 --> 00:28:19,060 So there is something like fifteen thousand cases where drivers waiting for compensation for that. 263 00:28:19,060 --> 00:28:25,660 Now, this ruling has been made. So Uber is in a position of potentially having to pay. 264 00:28:25,660 --> 00:28:35,020 Apple had a lot of money as a result of this ruling. Even though Uber is claiming that this ruling only applies to a small number 265 00:28:35,020 --> 00:28:42,880 of workers who were directly involved in this case and which Uber in 2016, 266 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:55,960 it's pretty clear that it has much broader implications for Uber drivers now and beyond that for other workers and the gig economy at large. 267 00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:02,940 You know, there are many, many gig economy companies in the UK who have very similar models to that, 268 00:29:02,940 --> 00:29:06,470 where they classify their workers as self-employed. 269 00:29:06,470 --> 00:29:21,500 And that extends beyond that, like taxi and a helping sector to domestic work can work and even remote and remote work done via Web based platforms. 270 00:29:21,500 --> 00:29:27,050 So a lot of workers in those industries might not be looking at the outcome of this case 271 00:29:27,050 --> 00:29:33,680 and be encouraged to bring similar litigation against the platforms that they work for. 272 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:38,500 So I think a lot of large economy companies in the UK, including deliverers, 273 00:29:38,500 --> 00:29:47,720 who has been the subject of similar litigation in the past, will be looking at this and considering the implications for them. 274 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:57,170 But in terms of the immediate implications of classifying workers and classifying Uber drivers as workers or forcing it to address the 275 00:29:57,170 --> 00:30:07,610 misclassification of workers is that those drivers will now be subject to really important basic protections that should characterise or work. 276 00:30:07,610 --> 00:30:13,190 And those include minimum wage and holiday pay. 277 00:30:13,190 --> 00:30:17,780 And the unanimous decision that the Supreme Court made in favour of, say, 278 00:30:17,780 --> 00:30:31,370 its drivers is a huge step forward and providing very basic but very important protections for Uber drivers and potentially for other representation. 279 00:30:31,370 --> 00:30:37,580 However, the flip side of this judgement is the uncertainty surrounding how Uber itself will respond. 280 00:30:37,580 --> 00:30:49,490 Well, we've seen some commentators arguing that this signals the legal end of the road for roupas Labour's labour practises. 281 00:30:49,490 --> 00:30:55,610 But I think that it's really important to be a bit cautious about making those kinds of claims, 282 00:30:55,610 --> 00:31:06,910 because around the world we've seen about deploying very innovative strategies to evade regulation where 283 00:31:06,910 --> 00:31:15,350 it has which they have been subject to regulation that that serrations to undermine their business model. 284 00:31:15,350 --> 00:31:24,170 We've seen two quite recent examples of this. One is their response to the A five legislation in California, 285 00:31:24,170 --> 00:31:36,980 which introduced a higher statutory test for what constitutes an employee and what have classified Uber drivers and other gig workers as employed. 286 00:31:36,980 --> 00:31:48,350 In response, Uber, alongside a few other gig economy platforms, including left, introduced a ballot measure, Proposition 22, 287 00:31:48,350 --> 00:32:00,170 which represented a kind of intermediate regulatory ground where gig workers weren't subject to the same level of protections as employees, 288 00:32:00,170 --> 00:32:06,080 but had some concessions, some limited benefits. 289 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:11,290 And so this was a way of enshrining the end into contract status. 290 00:32:11,290 --> 00:32:17,060 And growth has put a lot of money behind that campaign, a huge amount of lobbying, 291 00:32:17,060 --> 00:32:21,800 a huge amount of resources in order to get that ballot measure passed. 292 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:32,090 Now, the European Commission is launching a consultation just this week on regulating platform work to try to address 293 00:32:32,090 --> 00:32:39,860 some of the unfairness and vulnerability and precariousness that platform workers have been subject to. 294 00:32:39,860 --> 00:32:46,970 And this is this has been really starkly highlighted by the Cove at 19 pandemic. 295 00:32:46,970 --> 00:32:59,890 So ahead of the launch of this consultation, Uber released a white paper about regulation in Europe, regulation of platform work in Europe. 296 00:32:59,890 --> 00:33:05,140 Sensually arguing for a similar thing to what they did in California. 297 00:33:05,140 --> 00:33:13,750 The white papers framed Gin's as building a partnership for a FERA futurist platform. 298 00:33:13,750 --> 00:33:18,820 But what it's really arguing for is a new new regulation, 299 00:33:18,820 --> 00:33:32,830 which would again kind of enshrine and codify this model of independent work and create a class of workers. 300 00:33:32,830 --> 00:33:42,160 Well, the class of workers is already being created, but perpetuate the race to the bottom of labour standards. 301 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,610 A century. 302 00:33:44,610 --> 00:33:56,980 So this is a really significant decision, which might optimistically be a tipping point for addressing unfair practises in the platform economy. 303 00:33:56,980 --> 00:34:08,670 And sure, encouraging more and more workers to stand up against misclassification and other sectors and in other countries. 304 00:34:08,670 --> 00:34:10,350 However, 305 00:34:10,350 --> 00:34:28,770 the other possibility is a doubling down of platform companies attempts to lobby to change regulations in order to continue their business practises, 306 00:34:28,770 --> 00:34:37,890 which leaves more and more workers worldwide kind of dependent on these precarious situations and 307 00:34:37,890 --> 00:34:48,030 dependent on platforms which have all the control over the working conditions and over their livelihoods. 308 00:34:48,030 --> 00:34:53,820 And that's really what the Supreme Court identifies. And they're rolling. 309 00:34:53,820 --> 00:34:58,370 Thanks to Yasseen, Athlone and Kelly Houssam. 310 00:34:58,370 --> 00:35:06,480 At Fair Work, we believe that all work can and should be characterised by fair pay, fair conditions, fair contracts, 311 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:15,810 fair management and fair representation platforms ultimately have the power to improve standards and the ability to choose, too. 312 00:35:15,810 --> 00:35:21,540 In the UK, the vast majority of gig workers across the self-employed independent contractors, 313 00:35:21,540 --> 00:35:27,470 meaning they have no access to basic rights like minimum wage, sick pay and holiday pay. 314 00:35:27,470 --> 00:35:33,050 Platforms can improve the work they provide by providing the basic provisions such as minimum wage, 315 00:35:33,050 --> 00:35:43,440 sick pay and union representation that we believe should characterise all work regardless of its legal classification. 316 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:50,040 We're actively campaigning to improve the conditions for gig workers around the world and whole platforms to account. 317 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:54,150 You can find out more at Fair Don't Work. 318 00:35:54,150 --> 00:36:16,287 This episode was written and produced by Robbie Waran with composition by Louis Borlase, an additional composition by Rowby Schwerin.