1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:06,210 Welcome to the Oxford Martin School. My name is Charles Godfrey, I'm the director. 2 00:00:06,210 --> 00:00:14,730 And it's my enormous pleasure to welcome our speaker this evening, David Nabarro, and you can see David's title on the screen in front of you. 3 00:00:14,730 --> 00:00:20,910 David has a long and illustrious career, has worked in government, has worked in many roles in the United Nations, 4 00:00:20,910 --> 00:00:25,560 including the Special Representative Advisor and envoy of the United Nations, 5 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:31,110 Secretary General with special responsibility for food security and nutrition. 6 00:00:31,110 --> 00:00:40,170 David was also the recipient of the World Food Prise, with Lawrence said that in October 2018, which was fabulous news. 7 00:00:40,170 --> 00:00:45,180 David is doing all sorts of things at the moment. He's professor of global health at Imperial College. 8 00:00:45,180 --> 00:00:53,220 He's curating Food Systems Dialogue, which is an extraordinary series of events looking at the future of food throughout the world. 9 00:00:53,220 --> 00:00:54,180 And finally, 10 00:00:54,180 --> 00:01:06,840 he supports a social enterprise called for a city based in Switzerland and is building human capital to achieve the Sustainable Development Goals. 11 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:10,530 David, you're extremely welcome to the margins. Go, please come and give us your talk. 12 00:01:10,530 --> 00:01:22,820 Thank you very much for making. Well, what an opportunity to be here with you all this afternoon, 13 00:01:22,820 --> 00:01:32,930 and actually what I'm going to do is to take you through a journey that I've been involved in for the last 15 years, 14 00:01:32,930 --> 00:01:36,680 but I'm not going to just be satisfied by talking about the past. 15 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,990 I want to look ahead to the future. 16 00:01:38,990 --> 00:01:47,750 And that's why the the really emphasis of my conversation is where might this intersection of issues to do with people food, 17 00:01:47,750 --> 00:01:52,550 climate and health move to in the coming years? 18 00:01:52,550 --> 00:01:58,400 And I suspect that quite a lot of people in this room will be involved in the journey in some way or other. 19 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:04,160 So I'd quite like you to come with me and to think through it as we talk about it. 20 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:09,770 And then at a particular point, when I'm finished talking, just turn off my phone. 21 00:02:09,770 --> 00:02:11,780 Will be a good moment for conversation, 22 00:02:11,780 --> 00:02:21,170 and I very much look forward to the discussion now and in the months and years to come because we're all part of this journey. 23 00:02:21,170 --> 00:02:31,790 It's not something that's just going to be done by. Prime ministers and presidents and ministers in the decision making rooms of government. 24 00:02:31,790 --> 00:02:34,040 It's not going to be done in the UN. 25 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:45,590 The bringing together of these different issues that are so crucial for our collective future will actually happen in schools and universities. 26 00:02:45,590 --> 00:02:53,090 It'll happen in companies. It'll happen in trade unions. It it'll happen in obviously different professional organisations. 27 00:02:53,090 --> 00:02:58,900 It's going to be something that will involve a very large number of people in collective action. 28 00:02:58,900 --> 00:03:04,630 And it's visualising how that collective action might evolve and the tricky steps 29 00:03:04,630 --> 00:03:10,450 that are going to have to be taken that I want to work with you on this afternoon. 30 00:03:10,450 --> 00:03:20,620 So the way I'm going to do this is with oratory mostly, and then I will go to some slides towards the end. 31 00:03:20,620 --> 00:03:26,170 We are being webcast, so rather than wander around, which is what I was hoping to do, 32 00:03:26,170 --> 00:03:33,730 some of you may have seen I was wandering around as you were coming in. I will stay here because it's easier for the for the camera. 33 00:03:33,730 --> 00:03:38,650 But I want you to imagine that I'm actually with you and then I'm alongside you as we have 34 00:03:38,650 --> 00:03:45,920 this discussion because I think it's intimate for all of us in a rather special way. 35 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:59,270 So my focus today starts in 2015, when the United Nations, reflecting 193 different entities, 36 00:03:59,270 --> 00:04:06,350 different countries, came together and agreed an overarching plan for the future of the world. 37 00:04:06,350 --> 00:04:16,670 And you might say that's a pretty arrogant thing to do, but this was something that was three years in the making between 2012 and 2015, 38 00:04:16,670 --> 00:04:28,820 and it was built on the experience of development action that had been underway between 2000 and 2015, what we call the Millennium Development Goals. 39 00:04:28,820 --> 00:04:34,910 But this was an altogether different exercise of establishing the plan for the future. 40 00:04:34,910 --> 00:04:43,910 And it was different because instead of being a plan that was based just on the needs and interests of people in developing countries. 41 00:04:43,910 --> 00:04:52,130 This was a global plan, a universal plan, and it had 17 goals and 169 targets. 42 00:04:52,130 --> 00:05:00,170 And it was negotiated in a way that involved taking the views of more than eight million people through an exercise called The World We Want, 43 00:05:00,170 --> 00:05:05,560 and involved more than 60 meetings of different technical groups around the world. 44 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,650 And it's an extraordinary, extraordinary document, you note. 45 00:05:08,650 --> 00:05:21,390 Of course, it's the Sustainable Development Agenda 2030 and within it all the 17 goals that you probably some of you know, almost off by heart. 46 00:05:21,390 --> 00:05:28,650 And it is the only plan that we've got for the future of the world. 47 00:05:28,650 --> 00:05:34,050 And because we don't have another world. This is a pretty important plan. 48 00:05:34,050 --> 00:05:39,660 And so if at any point you're with people and you say, well, is there a plan for the future? 49 00:05:39,660 --> 00:05:46,380 Does anybody have any idea where we might go and how we might be able to make sense of all the contradictions in today's world? 50 00:05:46,380 --> 00:05:51,970 The answer is yes, there is. Now. 51 00:05:51,970 --> 00:05:59,000 This plan. It's mostly famous for its 17 goals. 52 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:09,330 But inside it, there are five key principles that world leaders agreed on that are worth repeating. 53 00:06:09,330 --> 00:06:16,230 Because have principles that I think apply to just about everything that is done in public life, 54 00:06:16,230 --> 00:06:20,190 but particularly to the areas we're talking about today, 55 00:06:20,190 --> 00:06:29,220 the first of the principles was that what we're doing for the future must be people centred and by people centred. 56 00:06:29,220 --> 00:06:36,580 That means focussing on the interests of all people. And if recognising that the old people have value. 57 00:06:36,580 --> 00:06:45,530 And therefore, trying to make sure that no one is left behind in planning for the future is absolutely vital. 58 00:06:45,530 --> 00:06:49,970 Now, this was agreed by all world leaders, I want to stress this. 59 00:06:49,970 --> 00:06:53,670 No world leader said we're not going to be part of this. 60 00:06:53,670 --> 00:06:59,730 And in fact, more than 100 countries have actually adopted this agenda in their national planning, 61 00:06:59,730 --> 00:07:07,620 so we've got more than 100 actually countries who've adopted a plan for the future in which they explicitly 62 00:07:07,620 --> 00:07:15,180 commit to doing everything they can to lead and leave no one behind and to work for equitable development. 63 00:07:15,180 --> 00:07:23,700 And there are other principles. The first of those is that when thinking about the future, we have to think of the world as a whole. 64 00:07:23,700 --> 00:07:28,500 And that means that every country is undergoing development. 65 00:07:28,500 --> 00:07:37,560 Every country is having to make changes to ensure that we get systems that are fit for the future and that universality has meaning. 66 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:46,860 And that was a hugely important innovation brought into the negotiations for the sustainable development agenda by Colombia, 67 00:07:46,860 --> 00:07:50,730 but supported by many other countries. So they are universal. 68 00:07:50,730 --> 00:07:56,230 They apply everywhere. Number three is that they are interconnected. 69 00:07:56,230 --> 00:08:05,860 So instead of thinking of life and the future in terms of separate sectors like health, education, sanitation, economic growth, 70 00:08:05,860 --> 00:08:16,900 environment and security, you actually join it all together and say we're actually going to govern for the totality of people's needs. 71 00:08:16,900 --> 00:08:24,160 The fourth principle is that in responding to people's needs, we need to do it in an integrated way, 72 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:32,830 bringing together different actor agencies like government departments, civil society groups, trade unions and the like. 73 00:08:32,830 --> 00:08:41,470 And then the fifth principle is it to be done through partnership because unless there is an intent to partner for the future, 74 00:08:41,470 --> 00:08:50,440 we will end up fragmented and fail. So these are the principles that were agreed and they are being applied more and more in 75 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:57,460 development action and in public interest organisations when thinking about the future. 76 00:08:57,460 --> 00:09:03,550 And it's for that reason that I chose to come here and talk about the efforts to link nature, 77 00:09:03,550 --> 00:09:09,070 food and climate with people and talk about the progress and the implications of this 78 00:09:09,070 --> 00:09:15,970 work because that is in keeping with this 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development. 79 00:09:15,970 --> 00:09:21,970 So you heard from Charles Godfrey that I was working for the secretary general of the United Nations. 80 00:09:21,970 --> 00:09:27,040 Great job. You kind of you're up close and advising called into meetings. 81 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:36,350 You kind of get a feeling of what's happening. In and around the world, in different countries and in different, quite tricky situations, 82 00:09:36,350 --> 00:09:41,690 and the one that I worked with on this agenda was called Ban Ki Moon, 83 00:09:41,690 --> 00:09:49,560 a Korean, incredibly effective, hard working conscientious guy really grew to love him a lot. 84 00:09:49,560 --> 00:09:57,980 And during my time with him, I was given responsibility for food and thinking about the future of food. 85 00:09:57,980 --> 00:10:04,540 And around the time this new agenda was being agreed, he said to me, David. 86 00:10:04,540 --> 00:10:14,380 I don't think that we are giving enough attention to food and the place of food in the future of people in our world. 87 00:10:14,380 --> 00:10:17,260 We kind of take it for granted. 88 00:10:17,260 --> 00:10:27,540 And so he asked me to bring together about 60 different figures from government, from civil society, from business, from the UN. 89 00:10:27,540 --> 00:10:36,310 To come and work in a think tank over a couple of years, infrequent meetings once every six months. 90 00:10:36,310 --> 00:10:45,480 To answer his question, which is what do we do about food in relation to this planning for the future? 91 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:54,180 And we would slightly nuanced this by saying we're going to focus on food systems, the systems through which food is produced, 92 00:10:54,180 --> 00:11:06,120 processed, distributed, marketed, made available to people supplied in hospitals used in institutions retailed in supermarkets. 93 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:14,310 And it was really a very interesting exercise. I'm just going to give you a very short summary of what came out of this work, 94 00:11:14,310 --> 00:11:23,950 which is being published and is now being used by one or two organisations firstly. 95 00:11:23,950 --> 00:11:32,480 There's not much point in having food systems if they don't contribute to people being well nourished and healthy. 96 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:41,100 And if by any chance to prove that people are eating. Is actually making them sick, then that's pretty bad. 97 00:11:41,100 --> 00:11:44,740 There's a small problem, which is right at the moment. 98 00:11:44,740 --> 00:11:54,630 Between one third and one half of all deaths of all people everywhere in our world are related to the diet that they're eating. 99 00:11:54,630 --> 00:12:01,380 So there's a bit of correction to be done on the links between food systems and nutrition and health. 100 00:12:01,380 --> 00:12:09,060 The most dramatic of these is an enormous epidemic we have right now of type two diabetes. 101 00:12:09,060 --> 00:12:13,940 Which is causing enormous consequences in every country in the world. 102 00:12:13,940 --> 00:12:18,860 And needs intensive intervention attention right now. 103 00:12:18,860 --> 00:12:23,400 The second, the conclusion of this group. Was that? 104 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:29,250 If we want to be paying attention to the future of water supplies in aquifers, 105 00:12:29,250 --> 00:12:35,710 to the future of forests, to the future of key insects like pollinators. 106 00:12:35,710 --> 00:12:43,300 And to the future of the social fabric in the countryside all over the world. 107 00:12:43,300 --> 00:12:54,600 We have to start focussing on the link between food and the environment and food systems and the ecosystem services on which we all depend. 108 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:59,310 Because right at the moment, many of the problems of shortage of water, for example, 109 00:12:59,310 --> 00:13:07,890 in South Africa or in California are related to competition between the agriculture sector and the domestic consumers. 110 00:13:07,890 --> 00:13:21,440 Number three. It's unfortunately. The countryside in many parts of the world is no longer providing employment. 111 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:25,520 That is considered satisfactory by young people who are coming onto the labour market. 112 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:30,560 So 10 million young people coming onto the labour market each year in Africa, 113 00:13:30,560 --> 00:13:37,880 and the majority of them are going for their employment into towns and cities and are not staying in the countryside. 114 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,000 And the reason for that is that the countryside, 115 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:48,620 which is the haven of agriculture and where the opportunities for employment usually come through agriculture, 116 00:13:48,620 --> 00:13:53,560 is just not working as a magnet for employment for young people. 117 00:13:53,560 --> 00:14:05,880 And indeed. Most communities where I have been travelling in the last few years tell me that actually farming as a sector is in real distress. 118 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:18,800 And unless farmers have either got quite large assets or rather unique products, they're finding it harder and harder to make a living. 119 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:23,030 Given the cost that they're getting for their produce compared with the amount they 120 00:14:23,030 --> 00:14:28,100 have to invest in making it happen and some areas of particularly serious like, 121 00:14:28,100 --> 00:14:37,220 for example, in this country, those who are farming sheep in the hills and dairy farming in much of Europe. 122 00:14:37,220 --> 00:14:43,910 But we're finding the same problem in India, same problem in China, the same problem in Latin America, same problem in Africa. 123 00:14:43,910 --> 00:14:52,490 The rural space as a place for employment and agriculture is a sector that's attractive to young people, just not working. 124 00:14:52,490 --> 00:14:57,860 So that's a problem. Three is the rural environment as an economic magnet? 125 00:14:57,860 --> 00:15:01,090 Not good enough problem for. 126 00:15:01,090 --> 00:15:12,970 Is that if you look at agriculture as a sector, it seems to contribute if you add together the land use changes as a result of agriculture. 127 00:15:12,970 --> 00:15:21,990 To around 38 percent plus or minus of greenhouse gas emissions, which make room. 128 00:15:21,990 --> 00:15:29,730 But it's not factored into governance, increasingly chucking stuff in the sea. 129 00:15:29,730 --> 00:15:40,700 Or throwing stuff away in other ways or cutting down trees or setting fire to forests is seen to be something that is somehow permissible. 130 00:15:40,700 --> 00:15:46,720 Without sanction by governments. Or by businesses? 131 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:55,960 But the position developed by China and the other countries I mentioned that's now been endorsed by 30 countries in the United Nations, 132 00:15:55,960 --> 00:16:05,520 context is basically saying stop that. Value nature, because without nature, we don't have a decent hope for the future. 133 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,440 It needs a lot of science to get it right to work out. 134 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:16,850 How do you value a mature forest in the Amazon versus a plantation forest in Scandinavia? 135 00:16:16,850 --> 00:16:23,450 How do you value the protection of coastline by mangroves when we've got more and more evidence that that's possibly 136 00:16:23,450 --> 00:16:29,900 the only thing that protects poor people when they get hit by a tropical storm from being washed away and killed? 137 00:16:29,900 --> 00:16:38,660 How do you value that answer? It's a huge value, and it's time to put numbers on it and treat it as a proper economics. 138 00:16:38,660 --> 00:16:45,890 And there is. Professor Partha Dasgupta and the team in Cambridge, but others are now beginning to develop the economic analysis. 139 00:16:45,890 --> 00:16:52,730 It requires very, very good multi working involving people in local communities because they know the answers. 140 00:16:52,730 --> 00:16:57,950 They may be living in the delta in Bangladesh, or they may be living in the Sahel. 141 00:16:57,950 --> 00:17:03,560 They know how they use nature to maintain their lives, and they know better than us. 142 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:09,890 So it requires painstaking work of working with local communities to get information about 143 00:17:09,890 --> 00:17:14,810 the value of nature and then to put a cost on it and then to find ways to finance it. 144 00:17:14,810 --> 00:17:18,490 So that is the current emphasis on now. 145 00:17:18,490 --> 00:17:25,060 We've been a bit knocked sideways with some of our thinking about how to take it forward because there was going to be a meeting in Santiago, 146 00:17:25,060 --> 00:17:31,630 Chile, in December where we would have brought together the different people working on this and advanced the subject. 147 00:17:31,630 --> 00:17:38,080 But that's been postponed. But we will pick it up again in various events coming next year. 148 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:43,120 There's a big biodiversity conference in Kunming, in China in October next year, 149 00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:51,400 and then there's a big climate event in Glasgow, UK in December next year, next year, next year. 150 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:58,300 Yeah. And we will use those as ways of really weaving the different subject areas 151 00:17:58,300 --> 00:18:06,410 together to create the new disciplines for what I call nature based living. 152 00:18:06,410 --> 00:18:14,080 Which are the disciplines needed to establish government finance, boardroom management? 153 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:18,190 Curricula in classrooms, plus the software to support them. 154 00:18:18,190 --> 00:18:26,320 Where are they? And all the various different things that are needed to make this happen so that weaving it's more than 155 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:33,640 linking its weaving together disciplines is to work for next year and leading into the year after. 156 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,930 And we will bring the nature weave alongside the food. 157 00:18:37,930 --> 00:18:44,680 We've to try to make sure that in the process, things are not separated but are kept together, 158 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:52,810 whether it's in government or in business or in civil society or between different professional groups. 159 00:18:52,810 --> 00:19:00,310 Now you can say, is this fantasy or is it talking for real? You're being very kind to listen to this answer. 160 00:19:00,310 --> 00:19:09,120 I am talking for real. And the way in which I believe that we will be able to make this happen. 161 00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:17,370 Is by finding ways to work together to create new styles of decision making. 162 00:19:17,370 --> 00:19:27,350 But outside the existing departmental structure in government or faculty structure in universities. 163 00:19:27,350 --> 00:19:34,670 And it involves something that my colleagues and I have actually stumbled across after we've been doing it for some years, 164 00:19:34,670 --> 00:19:44,420 we thought somebody must have written about it. And yes, there is a theory and it's called living systems leadership. 165 00:19:44,420 --> 00:19:47,270 So I'll give you a take it apart. One. 166 00:19:47,270 --> 00:19:57,770 Leadership because when you're trying to change the way things are being done and work outside normal, normal patterns of organisation of thought, 167 00:19:57,770 --> 00:20:00,140 you have to be ready to be a leader, 168 00:20:00,140 --> 00:20:09,740 which means taking risks and working with others to make sure that you get the best possible result to make life better for others. 169 00:20:09,740 --> 00:20:19,640 Systems is essential because all the issues we're talking about involve the interaction between different systems in society. 170 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:24,320 They're not processes that are occurring as a result of linear processes. 171 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,220 A gives a result gives gives rise to be no. 172 00:20:28,220 --> 00:20:35,380 They are interactive processes where the result is due to multiple systems. 173 00:20:35,380 --> 00:20:43,600 Each with their own characteristics and living systems, because these are about systems that involve people, 174 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:52,030 but they also involve other living organisms, they might be microorganism organisms in your microbiome. 175 00:20:52,030 --> 00:20:59,890 They might be organisms in the animal kingdom, in the plant kingdom, in the fungal kingdom. 176 00:20:59,890 --> 00:21:04,390 That doesn't matter. What matters is that we recognise is the living systems, 177 00:21:04,390 --> 00:21:12,210 which means you have to treat them differently from mechanical systems because they have very different properties. 178 00:21:12,210 --> 00:21:18,190 And this science of working with living systems of could just have to project a bone cloud just for a second, 179 00:21:18,190 --> 00:21:23,640 that takes us into a different way of working. 180 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:32,060 That I just wanted to share with you before I closed. And stand here and tell you. 181 00:21:32,060 --> 00:21:37,610 If you want to make change in the way in which things get done, 182 00:21:37,610 --> 00:21:46,310 a vital attribute to have at the beginning is to be able to connect intensively between disciplines, 183 00:21:46,310 --> 00:21:50,900 between people, between groups with different interests. 184 00:21:50,900 --> 00:22:01,110 But the connecting has to be particularly profound because it means working with people you would not normally get on with. 185 00:22:01,110 --> 00:22:10,730 Sitting with people you would not normally sit opposite in the meeting room, writing to people who would not normally be receiving emails from you. 186 00:22:10,730 --> 00:22:19,640 You can't do this if you go into the work so principled that you said I won't sit down with them because they're meat eaters and I'm a vegan. 187 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:28,130 No, you've got to be able to communicate and communicate with people with whom you have radical differences of opinion because it's out of that, 188 00:22:28,130 --> 00:22:33,380 that the magic of transformation can happen. Secondly. 189 00:22:33,380 --> 00:22:43,610 It all depends on people. You can't make changes outside the normal disciplinary or ideological boundaries if you just work with institutions, 190 00:22:43,610 --> 00:22:48,470 because institutions tend to try to keep the same basic characteristics. 191 00:22:48,470 --> 00:22:54,590 But the people inside these institutions, as many of you will find if you talk to others in this room, 192 00:22:54,590 --> 00:22:58,130 it's always exciting and encourage people to work with. 193 00:22:58,130 --> 00:23:05,870 But it's focussing on three things focussing on the common identity working for a better world for everybody. 194 00:23:05,870 --> 00:23:11,120 Focussing on the relationships between people because it's relationships that determine 195 00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:18,200 how teams work and creating the trust that is necessary to share to share information, 196 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:28,070 ideas and emotions. Networks are how change happens, and that kind of work that I'm involved in is all about networks. 197 00:23:28,070 --> 00:23:39,740 As I've already said, you can't get new ways of thought without encouraging dialogue that explores priorities and trade-offs when decisions are made. 198 00:23:39,740 --> 00:23:45,380 Because shifting the way in which decisions are made involves shifting the priorities that are applied 199 00:23:45,380 --> 00:23:52,820 to the decision choices and shifting the variables that are applied when you're making trade-offs. 200 00:23:52,820 --> 00:23:58,610 It's not difficult stuff, but it does involve a lot of tense politics. 201 00:23:58,610 --> 00:24:05,270 And to get into the politics, you have to do it through looking at decision making and priorities and trade-offs. 202 00:24:05,270 --> 00:24:15,560 But then when you started to put together the new way of thought and action, then comes the really exciting part because you create a new narrative. 203 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,190 What does food mean to us instead of seeing it as fuel? 204 00:24:19,190 --> 00:24:26,800 We see it as nourishment. When you see just love and respect and also something to keep people healthy, 205 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:32,920 you don't want to give loving food that stuffed full of cream and other stuff. If at the same time you're worried it's going to kill somebody. 206 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:41,020 So there's a whole way of adjusting the narrative around food so that it has value, and within the narratives come the pathways. 207 00:24:41,020 --> 00:24:45,790 That's where the scientists help us by saying, Well, you make choices, you go this way, that way. 208 00:24:45,790 --> 00:24:52,650 That's what the choices are, and there's so much exciting work developed to frame the journey. 209 00:24:52,650 --> 00:25:01,020 And then to cradle the process because the new process is going to merge without a lot of care and the care is 210 00:25:01,020 --> 00:25:08,940 done through creating the cradles with which within which people interact and then the coalitions can be built. 211 00:25:08,940 --> 00:25:16,520 Working together, you get five, six, seven, 10, 20, 30, 50, 100 different organisations working together. 212 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:27,380 And becoming a movement for change. And then we start the cycle again, so all I want to do is to say to you that this process is happening, 213 00:25:27,380 --> 00:25:33,550 but it involves a different way of working that we call living systems leadership. 214 00:25:33,550 --> 00:25:41,220 And to get there. We have to have certain skills, we have to be super comfortable with complexity. 215 00:25:41,220 --> 00:25:45,090 We can't do this work if we just want to simplify everything. 216 00:25:45,090 --> 00:25:52,900 We have to welcome complexity, get off on it and we have to then also welcomed different understandings. 217 00:25:52,900 --> 00:25:56,100 Not everybody sees things the same way. Fine. 218 00:25:56,100 --> 00:26:02,460 It's the absolute reverse of the sort of Facebook mentality you are working with people who see things differently. 219 00:26:02,460 --> 00:26:08,310 You value networks because you see them as the most powerful source for change and you 220 00:26:08,310 --> 00:26:15,830 appreciate the potential of coalitions and you anticipate new paradigms to emerge. 221 00:26:15,830 --> 00:26:24,010 And just to finish it, what do we need to be able to do to get into this way of working? 222 00:26:24,010 --> 00:26:31,380 It's kind of interesting. Because if somebody had said to me 20 years ago, as you get older, 223 00:26:31,380 --> 00:26:39,300 you're going to have to be able to get better at holding competing perspectives in your mind at the same time. 224 00:26:39,300 --> 00:26:44,760 I've just said now surely as you get older, you get more certainty that X is right and Y is wrong. 225 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:49,050 Surely that's what's going to happen to me. But it hasn't happened like that. 226 00:26:49,050 --> 00:26:50,190 As I've got older, 227 00:26:50,190 --> 00:27:01,920 I realised that to be able to hold different perspectives in my mind without getting too fast about what is right or what is wrong is absolutely 228 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:09,360 key to doing this kind of work because everybody has a different view of the food system or the health system or the climate system. 229 00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:18,660 And that's legitimate. It's OK. And it only gets funny when you try to say, well, there's an ideology and got got to respect the ideology. 230 00:27:18,660 --> 00:27:24,690 But I'm saying try to break free of the ideologies of academic discipline and 231 00:27:24,690 --> 00:27:29,100 the ideologies of belief systems if you're going to do this kind of work. 232 00:27:29,100 --> 00:27:34,380 See the whole system differently to the separate parts, 233 00:27:34,380 --> 00:27:39,970 because it's the whole system that really excites us when we're looking at things through new eyes. 234 00:27:39,970 --> 00:27:45,580 Feel into the pace and the rhythm, don't try to change things. 235 00:27:45,580 --> 00:27:51,580 When they're not ready to be changed, that's why this work requires intense patience. 236 00:27:51,580 --> 00:28:00,760 And at the same time, incredible opportunism so that when the moment is right, you go for it, stop being a disc jockey, but a disc jockey of lights. 237 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:09,340 Fourthly, always recognise that systems vary in relation to their environments that I think everybody would hear would understand. 238 00:28:09,340 --> 00:28:18,370 And lastly, meet people right where they really are, not where you should think they should be. 239 00:28:18,370 --> 00:28:25,540 Anyway, this is living systems work. This is the kind of work that I believe as a result of the work I've been, 240 00:28:25,540 --> 00:28:33,420 what I've been doing over the last few years will lead to paradigm shifts that will bring together work we do. 241 00:28:33,420 --> 00:28:39,420 Around people and their well-being nature, and it's central to our lives. 242 00:28:39,420 --> 00:28:45,080 Food is something that's a vital concern to all seven point six billion people on our planet. 243 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:50,800 And climate, because unless we really get it together on climate, we're going to be in deep trouble. 244 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:56,600 So thank you very much for listening and I hope that you enjoyed it and I'd love to stay in touch. 245 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:13,280 Thank you. Thanks, David, for an extraordinary, wide ranging conversation. 246 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:22,140 I'm sure they're going to be lots of questions and who would like to go first lady with a white top? 247 00:29:22,140 --> 00:29:29,740 How are you doing? I'm sorry just to remind everyone this is being broadcast. 248 00:29:29,740 --> 00:29:33,880 Thank you. It's been most outspoken. 249 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:40,840 Yes. So my question relates to talking about the taxation of food. 250 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:46,480 I didn't hear what you said. My question relates to you talk about the taxation of food. 251 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:51,940 So I mean, this comes down to the idea of food as a commodity rather than a right anyway, 252 00:29:51,940 --> 00:29:56,620 which I think is maybe an ideology might be good to think about breaking free from. 253 00:29:56,620 --> 00:30:03,190 But if we put that aside and take that as given and look at it in purely economic terms, 254 00:30:03,190 --> 00:30:09,820 the social cost of the environmental damage done by food production at the moment is mostly felt by the consumers, 255 00:30:09,820 --> 00:30:13,000 the people that are going to buy the food. 256 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:21,160 And I agree that farmers shouldn't feel that taxation either because farmers are equally pushed and equally struggle in the system. 257 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,140 But there are groups of people that that do benefit, 258 00:30:23,140 --> 00:30:29,380 and those are the people selling the fossil fuels that own the intellectual property rights to seeds, 259 00:30:29,380 --> 00:30:33,670 and they're producing the chemicals that input into our food system as well. 260 00:30:33,670 --> 00:30:43,630 And I don't understand the logic in the consumer feeling both the social cost of the environmental damage and then having to pay the economic cost, 261 00:30:43,630 --> 00:30:51,940 the taxation on the food when the people that are benefiting from the social cost can then go scot free and feel none of the blame. 262 00:30:51,940 --> 00:30:59,500 So how would you excuse me if you were if you keep the mike just for a second? 263 00:30:59,500 --> 00:31:09,420 Because this is the way you phrased the question, I think opens up the dilemma that I'm feeling more and more. 264 00:31:09,420 --> 00:31:22,130 Which is. It's just grossly unfair to ask consumers to cover the cost that results from things that had nothing to do with them. 265 00:31:22,130 --> 00:31:32,390 Such as, as you say, environmentally damaging aspects of food production, especially when these are linked to other harmful commercial practises. 266 00:31:32,390 --> 00:31:35,840 So I just ask you, do you have in your view, 267 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:43,310 if you're doing work on this model of of how the cost should be parsed between the different potential contributors? 268 00:31:43,310 --> 00:31:47,150 Or is this not something you've been working on in a vague way? 269 00:31:47,150 --> 00:31:58,400 I would see that the people that are having a genuine economic benefit from the social cost being felt of the environmental damage are the people, 270 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,390 for the most part, selling inputs to farmers. 271 00:32:02,390 --> 00:32:08,630 And in the case of tenant farmers, probably the people that own the land, particularly landowners that are benefiting, 272 00:32:08,630 --> 00:32:17,420 for example, in this country from cap payments without necessarily fulfilling any of their environmental obligations. 273 00:32:17,420 --> 00:32:23,510 So I think there are there are plenty of people who we could tax, 274 00:32:23,510 --> 00:32:30,050 the people that are making a great deal of money from extracting and selling fossil fuels, 275 00:32:30,050 --> 00:32:33,980 who are benefiting from owning intellectual property rights to organisms. 276 00:32:33,980 --> 00:32:38,690 People that are creating chemical inputs and that create a farming system that 277 00:32:38,690 --> 00:32:43,760 is destructive to the environment is creating really unhealthy food for us. 278 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:48,800 As you said, a very limited diet that centred on just a handful of crops, 279 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:53,150 which is affecting the genetic resilience as well of our biodiversity and our food. 280 00:32:53,150 --> 00:32:58,130 And it's it's not good for the farmers and it's not good for the consumers that the people that 281 00:32:58,130 --> 00:33:03,530 stand to benefit the people that are at the top of that chain and they should feel the adaptation. 282 00:33:03,530 --> 00:33:13,190 And it's interesting just to complete this exchange that I think in the European Parliament and then the European Commission, 283 00:33:13,190 --> 00:33:19,940 probably more than any other political environment, this is now really coming through strongly. 284 00:33:19,940 --> 00:33:29,520 It needs care. Because we've got to be get the science right before identifying particular practises that are harmful. 285 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:41,830 But I sense that looking ahead a few years, the pattern of both subsidy and taxation in relation to agricultural inputs will change. 286 00:33:41,830 --> 00:33:50,850 I think it will happen. Rather quicker in the European setting than perhaps in some of the North American settings, but let's wait and see. 287 00:33:50,850 --> 00:33:58,930 But I personally believe that the point of view you're expressing is getting more and more into the mainstream, I believe. 288 00:33:58,930 --> 00:34:08,310 Would you agree that the consumers and farmers shouldn't feel that tax? I'm against the idea that consumers should have to pay. 289 00:34:08,310 --> 00:34:16,010 And indeed, the farmers should have to pay for destructive action that is perhaps more the responsibility of others. 290 00:34:16,010 --> 00:34:20,760 I'm being very careful how I say it, but I hope that you got my point question over here. 291 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:25,140 Hello there. Thank you so much for coming to speak today. I really enjoyed your talk. 292 00:34:25,140 --> 00:34:27,540 I'm a business student at Side Business School, 293 00:34:27,540 --> 00:34:34,920 and so I'd really like to hear your perspective on the responsibility of business to contribute to the change that you're talking about today. 294 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:44,150 So if you let us imagine that you are chief executive of one of the largest multinational food companies. 295 00:34:44,150 --> 00:34:49,870 And you're looking at your business strategy for the next 10 years. 296 00:34:49,870 --> 00:34:59,340 What are you thinking when you have your private discussions in your boardroom about what that business strategy should be like? 297 00:34:59,340 --> 00:35:05,660 I'll bet you. That you're starting to see a very different kind of world. 298 00:35:05,660 --> 00:35:12,220 Where your consumers are wanting to look, not just at. 299 00:35:12,220 --> 00:35:18,530 But the food they buy is going to do for their bodies and their minds. 300 00:35:18,530 --> 00:35:29,780 But you're also getting consumers who are saying what this food produced in a way that is environmentally sustainable or environmentally damaging. 301 00:35:29,780 --> 00:35:37,950 Is this food? Compatible with climate or is it contributing unnecessarily to climate change? 302 00:35:37,950 --> 00:35:43,020 And were the farmers or the fishers or others who were involved in producing this food, 303 00:35:43,020 --> 00:35:47,400 getting an adequate remuneration or were they being ripped off? 304 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:56,270 And I actually am seeing more and more business leaders asking these questions and asking them. 305 00:35:56,270 --> 00:36:06,270 In quite a deep way. So one quite large company that does confectionery and and animal food and other things. 306 00:36:06,270 --> 00:36:13,740 Has recently been saying to itself, we've been having a pretty consistent business model for the last hundred years. 307 00:36:13,740 --> 00:36:17,910 How do we need to change our business model for the next hundred years? 308 00:36:17,910 --> 00:36:25,370 But I think that the food sector, particularly the food sector, is dealing with hyper processed foods. 309 00:36:25,370 --> 00:36:32,020 We'll be changing its business model within the next 10 years, not the next 100 years. 310 00:36:32,020 --> 00:36:44,810 And I think the reason why that business model would change is that their consumers will start expressing preferences with more and more volume. 311 00:36:44,810 --> 00:36:50,300 Possibly with the the actual purchase of the product, that's not necessarily the same. 312 00:36:50,300 --> 00:37:02,530 Secondly, their employees are beginning to say we want to be part of a business and an industry that is ethically viable and sustainable. 313 00:37:02,530 --> 00:37:06,160 And thirdly, their suppliers are being brought into the discussion, 314 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:11,560 so I think there are going to be more and more significant changes in the food sector. 315 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,100 I'm trying not to say whether people ought to do something or not, 316 00:37:15,100 --> 00:37:19,870 because I don't think that you are just saying this is a pattern that I'm seeing happening. 317 00:37:19,870 --> 00:37:30,460 Talk to you about it afterwards if you like you very much. Thank you. A question right at the front. 318 00:37:30,460 --> 00:37:36,550 Thanks very much, David. I'm wondering in your dialogues, the many dialogues that you have held, 319 00:37:36,550 --> 00:37:43,990 how effectively do they expose the power relationships between the many interacting players, 320 00:37:43,990 --> 00:37:47,620 whether it's nature, agriculture, climate change and so on? 321 00:37:47,620 --> 00:37:52,840 You spoke at one point in your talk about the value of nature, but you also implied, 322 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:57,970 of course, that there are many values of nature, conflicting values of nature. 323 00:37:57,970 --> 00:38:03,010 So how effectively do you expose the power structures in those relationships? 324 00:38:03,010 --> 00:38:08,680 Who gets to choose? When we started the food systems dialogues, we had a choice. 325 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:14,970 Do we tried to run them as technical discussions? And. 326 00:38:14,970 --> 00:38:19,590 Minimise the the debates about the politics, 327 00:38:19,590 --> 00:38:29,340 about who's got the power to make change or do we keep them as essentially political because if you're going to try to make change? 328 00:38:29,340 --> 00:38:35,780 Power is the most vital variable of all to include into your matrix. 329 00:38:35,780 --> 00:38:42,020 Well, we didn't have to think about it the moment the dialogues started. 330 00:38:42,020 --> 00:38:56,230 They became intense and passionate about the power dynamics in the food sector and I think both when talking about food and when talking about nature. 331 00:38:56,230 --> 00:39:01,510 We get very quickly into power issues. 332 00:39:01,510 --> 00:39:09,580 But that's in a way why I am saying, Chris, that the increased engagement of consumers. 333 00:39:09,580 --> 00:39:16,420 If we're talking about businesses or the voting public, if we're talking about governance. 334 00:39:16,420 --> 00:39:27,230 In debating these issues is going to have an impact on policy, and I think it's going to happen quicker. 335 00:39:27,230 --> 00:39:32,390 Than many of us who've watched policy change in the last 30 or 40 years. 336 00:39:32,390 --> 00:39:39,270 Would predict, like here a year ago. 337 00:39:39,270 --> 00:39:50,670 None of us, I think, would have predicted four and a half million young people, we're going to be on the streets on September the 21st. 338 00:39:50,670 --> 00:40:05,570 Really? I think really sensibly and simply asking political leaders to take climate futures seriously. 339 00:40:05,570 --> 00:40:15,870 That has happened. Now, we believe myself and colleagues in the UN process for the four and a half million who are on the streets. 340 00:40:15,870 --> 00:40:23,010 There were 10, 20, 30 times as many who was sympathising, but weren't there. 341 00:40:23,010 --> 00:40:27,560 And that's just something that's happened in one year. 342 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:35,270 And they are not simply saying we are going to protest and then go home and go to school or whatever or go to university. 343 00:40:35,270 --> 00:40:38,720 It's we're engaged now and you're not going to shake us off. 344 00:40:38,720 --> 00:40:42,870 We're actually wanting to be part of these discussions. 345 00:40:42,870 --> 00:40:49,040 Because we can't because we don't believe government is actually governing for the future, we think government is governing for the present. 346 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:58,780 We think that's wrong. So Chris, I actually think we must relish the fact that we're talking here about issues of power. 347 00:40:58,780 --> 00:41:06,070 And we must be anticipating and expecting the participation in power around the future 348 00:41:06,070 --> 00:41:12,500 of food or the value given to nature from a greatly increasing number of people. 349 00:41:12,500 --> 00:41:17,990 And that just trying to get the phrasing that I wanted to say, but I was looking for the place to say it. 350 00:41:17,990 --> 00:41:23,920 That's why I am what I call a stubborn optimist. 351 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,340 Not because I'm just walking around being an optimist because I like to be an optimist, 352 00:41:27,340 --> 00:41:34,630 but because I actually am totally of the opinion that humanity in the form of people, 353 00:41:34,630 --> 00:41:36,460 particularly younger people, 354 00:41:36,460 --> 00:41:46,630 will take this stuff on and will not let it go on with arrangements that are damaging to people and to the planet and nobody that we have. 355 00:41:46,630 --> 00:41:51,710 So that's my view on that one question here. And then. 356 00:41:51,710 --> 00:42:05,780 They you possibly tell. I just wanted to ask how indigenous people and subsistence farmers who are not consumers by definition, 357 00:42:05,780 --> 00:42:12,110 therefore get treated as very poor are being brought into this discussion part of the work. 358 00:42:12,110 --> 00:42:16,550 Thank you for that question. So I should I should just say, first of all, that we be able to leave. 359 00:42:16,550 --> 00:42:27,260 Thank you for coming. And secondly, thank you for your questions. If we are trying to have dialogue and if we accept that in any environment, 360 00:42:27,260 --> 00:42:32,090 there are power relations that tend to exclude key people from the dialogue, 361 00:42:32,090 --> 00:42:38,420 it is really our responsibility to find ways to engage those who would otherwise be excluded, 362 00:42:38,420 --> 00:42:43,750 yet whose interests have to be taken into account in the discussion. 363 00:42:43,750 --> 00:42:45,130 There are, we believe, 364 00:42:45,130 --> 00:42:55,060 somewhere in the region of half a billion smallholder farmers in the world and about 170 million indigenous peoples in the world. 365 00:42:55,060 --> 00:43:05,020 One of the things that I really like about working within the UN structure is that the fact that these people are often, in normal parlance, 366 00:43:05,020 --> 00:43:16,520 excluded from debates about policy and practise and often not participating in political processes has been recognised over the years in the UN. 367 00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:21,170 So mechanisms for the engagement of indigenous peoples. 368 00:43:21,170 --> 00:43:30,320 In the broader UN process and mechanism for the involvement of smallholder farmers in the U.N. food process there. 369 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:35,990 However, the work I'm doing on the food systems dialogues is not a UN process. 370 00:43:35,990 --> 00:43:46,390 And we realised quite early on that unless we make a special effort to bring in those groups who are not at the table, they won't come. 371 00:43:46,390 --> 00:43:53,800 But it's more than that. I mean. You realise sometimes how stupid you are when you just don't think of these things, 372 00:43:53,800 --> 00:44:01,060 but my friends from Australian indigenous communities told me, we just can't come to your dialogues. 373 00:44:01,060 --> 00:44:08,260 If you don't let us come in a few days early, get to meet some of your people, get to understand your idioms, how you're going to talk, 374 00:44:08,260 --> 00:44:13,460 get to feel the structure of the buildings and the way you've got to feel the spirits in the building as well. 375 00:44:13,460 --> 00:44:18,700 I mean, it's not so the simple stuff, but when you've got to give us the space and the opportunity to do this, 376 00:44:18,700 --> 00:44:23,650 which means you have to find the money to make sure that we can come and the people who were companies. 377 00:44:23,650 --> 00:44:25,790 And the same applies with smallholder farmers, 378 00:44:25,790 --> 00:44:34,120 so the one thing that I think we often need to be reminded of is that if you want to include people who have got this power, 379 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:35,560 you have to make a special effort. 380 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:44,440 Another example is we wanted to try to make sure that people who are genuinely food poor could participate in the dialogues in the UK. 381 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:48,850 And it was pointed out to us that bringing really quite poor people along to a meeting 382 00:44:48,850 --> 00:44:52,840 where there are a lot of really well-off people is in itself a very tricky thing to do. 383 00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:54,610 It's difficult for them. 384 00:44:54,610 --> 00:45:02,140 So this has been not the easiest issue, and it's one that we all need to be continuously reminded of and thank you for bringing it up. 385 00:45:02,140 --> 00:45:05,320 I can't question that. And thank you for your talk. 386 00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:10,930 As I listen to your description of living systems, leadership and on from what you've just said now, 387 00:45:10,930 --> 00:45:16,810 it sounds very similar to citizens assemblies, which actually Oxford City has already held. 388 00:45:16,810 --> 00:45:25,630 It's already held one on one on climate emergency and a citizens assembly overcomes 389 00:45:25,630 --> 00:45:29,350 some of the problems you're describing because it it's like jury service, 390 00:45:29,350 --> 00:45:37,090 but it also picks a cross-section of society very consciously, rather like a scientific experiment. 391 00:45:37,090 --> 00:45:44,050 So it sounds very similar to what you're doing. I mean, I just wondered if you had any comments on citizens assemblies as a way forward. 392 00:45:44,050 --> 00:45:50,740 First of all, what I described about the processes that we're using, both in the dialogues and living systems leadership. 393 00:45:50,740 --> 00:46:00,160 They are not unique, and you're right that in so many societies, there are different processes that enable people to be involved. 394 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:06,400 I'm particularly interested in the citizens assembly process because of what you said that it is. 395 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:11,020 You're selected, I believe, by some kind of lottery process. 396 00:46:11,020 --> 00:46:20,330 But there are also constituencies. So it's very difficult to end up with a an entirely non representative community. 397 00:46:20,330 --> 00:46:22,840 And I like that number one. 398 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:31,330 Number two is that what we're trying to do with the dialogues is to maintain them as a regular process so that you don't just have one session, 399 00:46:31,330 --> 00:46:38,290 but you go on with a particular view to finding points of common interest and ability to form coalitions. 400 00:46:38,290 --> 00:46:42,470 I'm not sure whether that comes out of the citizens assembly you describe, 401 00:46:42,470 --> 00:46:51,460 but it is coming out of many of the similar kind of new ways of working in other countries where I've been particularly involving indigenous people. 402 00:46:51,460 --> 00:46:59,350 So what I would like to suggest is that any of these processes that enables dialogue and discussion is the 403 00:46:59,350 --> 00:47:06,850 kind of thing we ought to be encouraging to help create a future that's fit for for generations to come. 404 00:47:06,850 --> 00:47:11,890 And let's share and and I'll just put up my email at the end. 405 00:47:11,890 --> 00:47:20,590 Please don't hesitate to share any experiences you've got because the more we can network and wave, the more likely we are to bring about change. 406 00:47:20,590 --> 00:47:25,000 It won't be done by fragmentation. OK. Thank you. 407 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:31,300 Questioner right at the front here, and I think this will be the last question. OK. 408 00:47:31,300 --> 00:47:38,260 Yeah. Hi, Dr. Navarro. Hello, my name's Rowan. I'm an undergraduate at the University of Oxford. 409 00:47:38,260 --> 00:47:45,820 I noticed that you talked a lot about bringing young people into the discussion and some of the climate movement that's happened. 410 00:47:45,820 --> 00:47:49,660 What are some areas that you feel that you could be more involved that you'd like 411 00:47:49,660 --> 00:47:54,310 to see used to be more involved in that are currently they're underrepresented? 412 00:47:54,310 --> 00:47:58,660 Thank you very much indeed. Just this is a tricky question. 413 00:47:58,660 --> 00:48:05,440 I want to say to you straight away. I've put up my email address up there and the project comes off. 414 00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:17,020 This is a tricky question because I would like younger people to be involved in all aspects of governance in every institution, 415 00:48:17,020 --> 00:48:25,310 in every geographical area or administration, and in every issue that's dealing with challenges for the future. 416 00:48:25,310 --> 00:48:33,170 Because I just don't see the point of you relying on older people who are going to be dead in 20 or 30 417 00:48:33,170 --> 00:48:39,340 years time to actually make decisions that are going to influence the chances you have in your life. 418 00:48:39,340 --> 00:48:41,960 But I don't know how to do it. 419 00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:51,590 I mean, what we've tried in the in the UN process was creating process, creating new ways of working with young people, and we have a big summit. 420 00:48:51,590 --> 00:48:59,280 You might know on the 21st of September. But I worry that it's a flash in the pan and that we will slip back into the initial 421 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:03,930 system of just pulling people from the usual places to come and make decisions. 422 00:49:03,930 --> 00:49:11,760 So I don't have an answer, but I think it's one of the most important issues that we ought to walk away from here with. 423 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:19,500 And I encourage you. To not give up in making certain that your participation in decision making 424 00:49:19,500 --> 00:49:26,820 processes is genuine and not tokenistic and is continuous and not to content. 425 00:49:26,820 --> 00:49:31,140 So thank you for making the point, and that that's the last point. That's a very good point, Wendell. 426 00:49:31,140 --> 00:49:48,370 Thanks very much. Typekit, I guess just a parochial question for those of you who are UK citizens, 427 00:49:48,370 --> 00:49:54,550 and one way you can make a difference is to vote on December the wherever it is. 428 00:49:54,550 --> 00:49:58,390 David, it's been a really fabulous hour and a bit. 429 00:49:58,390 --> 00:50:06,520 You brought up so many different things. I think what has really come across as your absolute passion for health, for the environment, 430 00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:12,430 for nature, and you talk about bringing down barriers and moving across silos. 431 00:50:12,430 --> 00:50:17,560 I think your career sort of embodies that movement to go and going across. 432 00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:21,380 So thank you again for thanks to Oxford and thank you again for such things. 433 00:50:21,380 --> 00:50:28,350 Interesting, too. Thank you. Could I just. I'd just like to thank my son is here. 434 00:50:28,350 --> 00:50:33,630 He's just sitting in the front. Thank you for coming and to my daughter, Polly might be. 435 00:50:33,630 --> 00:50:41,170 I've talked to police here. Both of them have got children less than two to. 436 00:50:41,170 --> 00:50:44,740 This is about why we do this. Thank you very much. 437 00:50:44,740 --> 01:06:57,772 Thank.