1 00:00:05,570 --> 00:00:11,360 Good day to everyone that's checked into this wonderful event from all around the world, 2 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:17,690 and I see people have joined from Ecuador, from Zambia, from Australia and across the hemispheres. 3 00:00:17,690 --> 00:00:26,900 We absolutely delighted today at the Oxford Martin School to welcome Kristalina Georgieva, the managing director of the IMF. 4 00:00:26,900 --> 00:00:33,170 Kristalina has been absolutely in the driving seat of attempts to respond to 5 00:00:33,170 --> 00:00:38,180 the pandemic to ensure that developing countries can meet their ambitions, 6 00:00:38,180 --> 00:00:44,060 and I've been privileged over many years to know her. We were colleagues at the World Bank together, both vice presidents, 7 00:00:44,060 --> 00:00:50,390 that she then went on to have a stellar career at the European Commissioner, as commissioner, 8 00:00:50,390 --> 00:01:00,320 then as the chief executive of the World Bank for three years, a role that was created specifically for her to manage the huge World Bank group. 9 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:09,860 And also it was interim president of the World Bank before wisely being tapped to be the managing director of the IMF. 10 00:01:09,860 --> 00:01:10,730 And in that role, 11 00:01:10,730 --> 00:01:20,900 now finding herself at the fire station that is trying to deal with the raging fires around the world as the commander in chief, a massive task. 12 00:01:20,900 --> 00:01:27,260 And Christina, thank you so much for finding time in your extremely busy schedule to spend this hour with us. 13 00:01:27,260 --> 00:01:34,100 We're going to chat for about 40 minutes and then we will open the conversation to questions and answers. 14 00:01:34,100 --> 00:01:39,710 So please do post your questions in the button at the bottom of the screen. 15 00:01:39,710 --> 00:01:41,390 And I hope we get to them. 16 00:01:41,390 --> 00:01:50,090 There's also a voting system which will allow you to vote for which questions you want to get behind, and I'll select those that get the most votes. 17 00:01:50,090 --> 00:01:58,400 This is being recorded, so be aware of that. And for those of you that I have friends that wanted to be part of this conversation but couldn't be, 18 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:04,010 that recording will be available on our websites following this event. 19 00:02:04,010 --> 00:02:08,450 So and I know today every day is an important and big day at the fund. 20 00:02:08,450 --> 00:02:18,080 But today you've released a brand new report which is discusses how countries can finance the SDGs. 21 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,220 How have the pandemic has affected them to the extent it's throwing them? 22 00:02:22,220 --> 00:02:27,920 Of course. And I thought it would be useful to begin this conversation by perhaps you saying 23 00:02:27,920 --> 00:02:34,550 something about what this report tells us and where we need to go with the findings. 24 00:02:34,550 --> 00:02:41,660 It is great to be with you and with the audience that you have assembled. 25 00:02:41,660 --> 00:02:51,140 Thank you for the outreach capacity that you offered to us at the front to talk about this, the new report. 26 00:02:51,140 --> 00:02:59,120 We put out the post-pandemic assessment of the Sustainable Development Goals and to talk about broadly 27 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:08,750 the very important time we find ourselves in starting from the Sustainable Development Goals. 28 00:03:08,750 --> 00:03:23,000 The reason we have focussed on what is happening with the ability of countries to follow on their development plot is really sobering. 29 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:32,510 It is the dangerous divergence in the economic fortunes between advanced economies, 30 00:03:32,510 --> 00:03:40,940 the rich countries and the developing world, especially problematic for low income countries. 31 00:03:40,940 --> 00:03:46,640 What we have seen in this pandemic is that. 32 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:51,800 Three factors determine how countries cope. 33 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:55,630 One, pre-existing conditions. 34 00:03:55,630 --> 00:04:06,880 Countries with strong fundamentals, sound buffers entered the crisis in better shape, with more diverse economies not dependent on you on tourism. 35 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:15,790 Second, the ability to mobilise policy support on scale through monetary and fiscal measures. 36 00:04:15,790 --> 00:04:27,070 And third, the ability to tap into the creativity of our societies that have delivered vaccines in record short time. 37 00:04:27,070 --> 00:04:35,670 So what the fund has spoken loudly during, especially our spring meetings, is that. 38 00:04:35,670 --> 00:04:40,420 The fortunes of countries are. 39 00:04:40,420 --> 00:04:48,670 Being determined by these two factors in a way that can dangerously undermine progress 40 00:04:48,670 --> 00:04:56,670 in development and actually affect global security down the road as a result. 41 00:04:56,670 --> 00:05:06,840 Advanced economies have been able to deploy 27 percent of GDP in monetary and fiscal policy measures. 42 00:05:06,840 --> 00:05:20,130 Emerging markets six percent. Low income countries two percent of a very small GDP and now with vaccinations are clearly 43 00:05:20,130 --> 00:05:28,230 advancing more in the countries that have been able to afford massively to scale up vaccinations. 44 00:05:28,230 --> 00:05:34,830 We see that risk of countries falling behind, becoming even worse. 45 00:05:34,830 --> 00:05:47,070 I should add that this divergence episodes within countries, but the topic of our conversation today is the danger of divergence across countries. 46 00:05:47,070 --> 00:06:00,090 So we asked a very sober and straightforward question in this in this paper what is happening with the pathway to reaching the SDGs? 47 00:06:00,090 --> 00:06:05,490 And the answer is threefold. 48 00:06:05,490 --> 00:06:14,630 One. Not surprisingly. Countries are falling behind on their plans. 49 00:06:14,630 --> 00:06:23,240 We looked at four countries in details. They're actually a good representation of the world. 50 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:34,210 Cambodia, Rwanda, Nigeria and Pakistan and to the analysis of these countries tells us that. 51 00:06:34,210 --> 00:06:47,930 COVID 19 is going to. Up the demand for resources quite significantly by on average, two and a half percentage of GDP. 52 00:06:47,930 --> 00:06:54,810 So what was expensive to begin with in relative terms is now even more so. 53 00:06:54,810 --> 00:07:04,730 So the on average the the percentage share that countries got to invest has gone to 14 percent of GDP. 54 00:07:04,730 --> 00:07:10,400 And of course, it differs in some countries, it is more than than in others. 55 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:22,430 We look at the five, let's call them investment opportunities that are very relevant for emperor as we look at education, 56 00:07:22,430 --> 00:07:26,960 health, roads, electricity, water and sanitation. 57 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:32,630 Admittedly, this is doesn't cover the whole investment needs for SDGs, 58 00:07:32,630 --> 00:07:49,560 but it covers the biggest chunk and we have registered the and unfortunately the the impact being one that absolutely requires. 59 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:55,410 Extraordinary efforts to overcome this slowdown. 60 00:07:55,410 --> 00:08:03,870 So that is our second point that countries themselves now have to see. 61 00:08:03,870 --> 00:08:09,930 What more they can do, and this is the biggest value of our research. 62 00:08:09,930 --> 00:08:24,450 It offers a framework to assess policy options that countries can apply so they can cope better with the burden COVID 19 imposed on them, 63 00:08:24,450 --> 00:08:32,460 as well as the broader demands for accelerating progress towards the SDGs. 64 00:08:32,460 --> 00:08:40,830 And when we when we place this framework, you wouldn't be surprised it is it because it has shown that? 65 00:08:40,830 --> 00:08:45,780 There are more things that countries can do on the policy front than they should take 66 00:08:45,780 --> 00:08:57,360 COVID 19 as an opportunity to speed up actions that they were embracing to begin with. 67 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:08,350 And amongst those actions, what we are keen to to see are things like prioritising fiscal revenues. 68 00:09:08,350 --> 00:09:13,420 Reduced tax avoidance increase, the share of tax revenues. 69 00:09:13,420 --> 00:09:18,820 And I want to say what I when you read the paper, what impressed me was the example of Cambodia. 70 00:09:18,820 --> 00:09:28,600 Cambodia in has managed to eradicate poverty, and it has done it with very determined domestic policy, a wise use of money. 71 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:39,490 But big component of it was that they increased tax to GDP from under 10 percent to 25 percent and then improved the quality of spending. 72 00:09:39,490 --> 00:09:45,850 That is the second area. We know there is waste in public spending. 73 00:09:45,850 --> 00:09:50,530 Policies that reduce this waste are absolutely critical. 74 00:09:50,530 --> 00:10:00,430 And then, of course, making it so that domestic private sector and also foreign investments can find the more fertile ground. 75 00:10:00,430 --> 00:10:09,780 So not a very innovative thing to say, but but truthful that. 76 00:10:09,780 --> 00:10:20,010 Focus on fundamentals, and they are, we particularly emphasise, investing in people, in education, in health, in social protection. 77 00:10:20,010 --> 00:10:27,270 We know educational attainment got the big dent from COVID. 78 00:10:27,270 --> 00:10:37,950 We know that 40 percent of learners and they are mostly in the developing world have missed out on almost a year of studies. 79 00:10:37,950 --> 00:10:43,890 We know that one extra year of studies lifts up wages by 10 percent. 80 00:10:43,890 --> 00:10:53,160 It's a big hit. So getting from this crisis an even more determined action to invest in people in 81 00:10:53,160 --> 00:11:00,360 the most important resource of the future and then look at infrastructure needs, 82 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:05,430 public infrastructure, private participation in infrastructure. 83 00:11:05,430 --> 00:11:14,580 And there again, the study shows a very interesting example from Rwanda that started with practically zero investments in infrastructure and 84 00:11:14,580 --> 00:11:24,720 then working with the World Bank managed to put public private partnership capacity to bring both public money to acquire, 85 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:38,190 use and private investments in infrastructure. Finally, the third conclusion is something that resonates very much with your own work. 86 00:11:38,190 --> 00:11:51,600 And if I may, I'm going to do a bit of a promotion of your forthcoming book Rescue, and it is extra ordinary efforts on the international front. 87 00:11:51,600 --> 00:12:04,830 We need radicalisation of cooperation because if we don't have a step up of what the world does to. 88 00:12:04,830 --> 00:12:14,820 Stop and reverse this dangerous divergence. Countries simply won't be able to stay on course with the SDGs. 89 00:12:14,820 --> 00:12:20,750 And we do some calculations by how many years they will be pushed. 90 00:12:20,750 --> 00:12:30,080 Into the future, if the world is too modest in doing its part. 91 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:42,740 I want to finish with an advertisement for a web page we're putting out as the slush finance on the IRS web page. 92 00:12:42,740 --> 00:12:52,820 You will find the paper and a lot of background materials there, but we are also going to populate it in the future with the framework itself. 93 00:12:52,820 --> 00:13:06,140 It allows different country data to be entered and then to look into what does it mean for the immediate policies and for longer term policy choices. 94 00:13:06,140 --> 00:13:12,650 And I will finish by saying we recognise that we need to be ourselves the first. 95 00:13:12,650 --> 00:13:19,120 We need to put our money where our mouth is. We have done that in the first phase of the crisis. 96 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:30,200 We provided. Financial lifelines to 86 countries, fifty two of them are low income countries in Africa, 97 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:40,130 for example, we have provided 13 times the equivalent of our average lending in the previous decade. 98 00:13:40,130 --> 00:13:45,650 In other words, in one year we have done more than we have done in a decade before, 99 00:13:45,650 --> 00:13:51,380 and we are now working with our board to increase access levels so we can continue to be 100 00:13:51,380 --> 00:13:58,820 a reliable source of finance financing on concessional terms for low income countries. 101 00:13:58,820 --> 00:14:02,330 We have provided debt relief. 102 00:14:02,330 --> 00:14:13,850 In other words, grants to countries to pay what is due to the fund over so far 18 months, likely to extend it to two years. 103 00:14:13,850 --> 00:14:33,350 And our bought our our membership has granted us the the the task of issuing 650 billion dollars equivalent in as new SDR allocation. 104 00:14:33,350 --> 00:14:38,990 It would lift up reserves everywhere for low income countries. 105 00:14:38,990 --> 00:14:44,030 This is 21 billion of additional reserves at the time. 106 00:14:44,030 --> 00:14:52,220 They so, so much need it. So let me stop with this and come back to many of these things. 107 00:14:52,220 --> 00:15:00,440 But I think what you've highlighted is that extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures both domestically and internationally, 108 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:05,960 and your paper really helps us in in focussing on the financing dimension of that. 109 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:11,840 And we've also included a link to your new paper I see on the on this webcast. 110 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:16,280 So any anyone participating be able to click through on that. 111 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:24,050 And it certainly does seem like a time where unless we do things differently domestically and internationally, 112 00:15:24,050 --> 00:15:31,580 we will fall further and further behind. And as you say, that that certainly is my message in rescue too. 113 00:15:31,580 --> 00:15:35,420 When we look at the international environment, I mean, 114 00:15:35,420 --> 00:15:45,080 I read in your paper that the SDGs are likely to be set back by five to 10 years unless urgent action is undertaken. 115 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:52,190 We see the rich countries have mobilised about 16 trillion dollars for themselves. 116 00:15:52,190 --> 00:15:58,280 And, as you've indicated, massive increases in their deficits and debt. 117 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:08,870 Yet the poorest countries have not been able to do that. Do you feel that your new SDR proposal can go some of the way to achieve that? 118 00:16:08,870 --> 00:16:18,080 And could you explain a bit? Maybe, perhaps, perhaps not all participants know what SDR are getting begin by explaining what SDR is and why this is 119 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:28,010 important and and how almost free money can be created by the IMF and perhaps recycled to those most in need. 120 00:16:28,010 --> 00:16:34,850 Yes. Well, thank you very much for giving me a chance to to do a one on one on next year. 121 00:16:34,850 --> 00:16:41,720 But before that, let me say that the advanced economies are doing better, growing faster. 122 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:46,340 It does have spill-over positive spill-over impact for the rest of the world. 123 00:16:46,340 --> 00:16:58,670 We now see how the US and China turning into this powerful engines of growth are lifting up the world economy, but it is not enough on its own, 124 00:16:58,670 --> 00:17:10,320 especially for those countries that may not be connected through supply chains or trade with this big, powerful engines of the world economy. 125 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:21,470 So we do need to do more. And so the special drawing rights are an instrument invented for this type of a crisis. 126 00:17:21,470 --> 00:17:30,550 Why? What is it? It is a reserve asset that the IMF can create. 127 00:17:30,550 --> 00:17:35,200 On the strength of all 190 members. 128 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:41,110 In other words, we have members with very strong currencies. 129 00:17:41,110 --> 00:17:45,550 And we take four of those strong currencies. 130 00:17:45,550 --> 00:17:57,730 We put them in a basket and then with the auto authorisation of the members, 85 percent of the members to say yes, 131 00:17:57,730 --> 00:18:10,580 great, we can use the reserves and distribute them across all our members in proportion to their quarters. 132 00:18:10,580 --> 00:18:20,060 We have done that in the past. Most recently, 2009, because of the global financial crisis, at that time, 133 00:18:20,060 --> 00:18:30,210 we allocated two hundred and fifty billion dollars as part of a global effort to lift up confidence. 134 00:18:30,210 --> 00:18:35,190 This time, as you notice, we are going much further. 135 00:18:35,190 --> 00:18:42,840 Why? Because we are dealing with a much more dramatic global crisis. 136 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:50,910 And as we allocate the SDR, which I hope would be done by by the end of August, 137 00:18:50,910 --> 00:19:03,480 what it would do for a country that that has melted its reserves to pay doctors and nurses and protect people and vulnerable parts of the economy, 138 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:17,400 their reserves would go up with this allocation. So what they have on top US dollars or other reserve currencies becomes more easily available. 139 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:22,110 In other words, it gives more space, more fiscal space for action. 140 00:19:22,110 --> 00:19:28,050 When countries have better reserves, they can borrow cheaper. 141 00:19:28,050 --> 00:19:33,470 And that is the at is why the membership authorised us to do it. 142 00:19:33,470 --> 00:19:38,410 A second important part of using as the is that. 143 00:19:38,410 --> 00:19:51,700 The well off members, those that don't need the injections of reserves could voluntarily offer to on lend them on highly concessional terms, 144 00:19:51,700 --> 00:19:57,700 the interest rate right now on is the RC zero point zero five. 145 00:19:57,700 --> 00:20:04,180 So five beeps they can all lend them to countries that need them. 146 00:20:04,180 --> 00:20:09,820 And we have some experience in this crisis. With that, we have done exactly that. 147 00:20:09,820 --> 00:20:18,280 Last April, I turned to the membership and I said, we need to triple concessional finance so we can help vulnerable countries. 148 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:30,040 And two thirds of what we have received were SDR from from sound countries on lend to the fund to help the membership. 149 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:35,620 And so this gives us confidence that this option can also be explored. 150 00:20:35,620 --> 00:20:46,960 But first things first, let's get to yes, the US allocate them to members and then we will see whether we can do a second bite of the SDR apple. 151 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:52,870 And and that will do both things obviously vital. So you can't do the second unless you've got the first. 152 00:20:52,870 --> 00:21:05,140 But presuming that the membership agree to this creation of 650 billion equivalent a US dollar new money, the low income countries, 153 00:21:05,140 --> 00:21:10,480 I understand only have about three percent of the quotes are of the IMF and so naturally would only 154 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:17,410 get about three percent that it creates potential for at a time when official aid is being cut. 155 00:21:17,410 --> 00:21:25,270 Because the size of many economies is cut and because of austerity on budgets, it creates this potential for real, 156 00:21:25,270 --> 00:21:33,940 substantial new money to meet the SDGs, to go back to the connexion with your your paper, which explains how vast that need is. 157 00:21:33,940 --> 00:21:44,920 Yes, indeed. And I do expect that we will see willingness it has been already voiced during the discussions. 158 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:53,440 We have set the number of countries, advanced economies and emerging markets like China with strong fundamentals. 159 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:59,980 They have indicated the interest for the fund to come up with proposals once we get the allocation. 160 00:21:59,980 --> 00:22:06,850 So we are looking at a broad range of ideas that have been presented to us. 161 00:22:06,850 --> 00:22:17,380 One that is most viable and likely to be part of that is what we have already done getting 162 00:22:17,380 --> 00:22:23,400 SDR into the poverty reduction and growth trust of the IMF and then on loan from there, 163 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:32,440 it's highly concessional terms. One thing that that is important to recognise is that the great advantage of SDR 164 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:39,510 is it doesn't cost money to governments because what they are doing is they're. 165 00:22:39,510 --> 00:22:45,660 Giving us their capacity to. 166 00:22:45,660 --> 00:22:51,260 Provide for reserves to share across the membership. 167 00:22:51,260 --> 00:22:57,630 But. If we are to be getting money to own land, 168 00:22:57,630 --> 00:23:04,200 then there would be questions that we need to answer around risks for those that 169 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:12,150 are on lending and around securing concession with the amongst the other ideas 170 00:23:12,150 --> 00:23:19,590 that are coming is how we can make make it so that perhaps we help the developing 171 00:23:19,590 --> 00:23:25,980 countries with other profound challenges like resilience to climate change. 172 00:23:25,980 --> 00:23:36,390 As you know, they are highly vulnerable economies, countries that that may be middle-income but highly vulnerable to climate shocks. 173 00:23:36,390 --> 00:23:39,480 Could there be a way to help these countries? 174 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:55,470 And as I said, that also questions around how more broadly as the US can be an input into the overall objectives of a supporting development. 175 00:23:55,470 --> 00:24:02,940 And this would be questions we would be working with the membership very seriously on. 176 00:24:02,940 --> 00:24:14,340 To stress it is voluntary, so it has to be attractive for those that are to be providing this support. 177 00:24:14,340 --> 00:24:21,960 And it has to be functional. It has to do good in the countries that need the the financing. 178 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:28,470 And if I may, people often say, Oh, it's only three percent. Yeah, it is only three percent, 179 00:24:28,470 --> 00:24:42,450 but 21 billion is three times more than the debt service suspension initiative provided US fiscal space for low income countries. 180 00:24:42,450 --> 00:24:53,580 So in relative terms, it is not a trivial contribution, and I am so, so relieved that the membership decided to go for it. 181 00:24:53,580 --> 00:25:01,750 Yeah, well, no, it's extremely significant and become even more significant if they voluntarily transfer some of it to developing countries. 182 00:25:01,750 --> 00:25:04,350 So good luck as you pursue that. 183 00:25:04,350 --> 00:25:13,800 And, you know, going back to your paper, it really does require huge extra financing if we're going to get back on track for the for the SDGs. 184 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:24,570 One thing that that's puzzled me that perhaps you can explain to me and participants is why there hasn't been more demand for the funds, 185 00:25:24,570 --> 00:25:26,580 credit lines, emergency credit lines. 186 00:25:26,580 --> 00:25:36,030 I know that you have lent more rapidly and extraordinary in this time of remote work that your processes have been sped up and people, 187 00:25:36,030 --> 00:25:40,170 board members and staff members around the world have been able to do so much so quickly. 188 00:25:40,170 --> 00:25:44,910 Totally unprecedented in terms of fund processes and approval ratings. 189 00:25:44,910 --> 00:25:51,900 I understand that. But still, it seems that many countries have been reluctant to to borrow more and that, 190 00:25:51,900 --> 00:25:57,480 you know, and the issue of fiscal space is a really pressing one for many countries. 191 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:04,980 One way I understand that is that we in a very different world to in previous crises because the private sector is so big because bilateral lenders, 192 00:26:04,980 --> 00:26:15,780 not least China, also are so big. But how how is this going to be resolved, how a country is going to be able to create that and borrow more? 193 00:26:15,780 --> 00:26:22,710 And do you think that we need a big, a big, a new round of debt relief to make that possible first? 194 00:26:22,710 --> 00:26:34,290 You're absolutely right. This is a very different crisis, different in the origins, different in the response in this crisis. 195 00:26:34,290 --> 00:26:48,390 The. Accommodative monetary policies of advanced economies meant abundance of liquidity and very low interest rates. 196 00:26:48,390 --> 00:26:54,950 So countries that have access to markets. Quite understandably. 197 00:26:54,950 --> 00:27:03,740 Go for borrowing from markets rather than coming to the front, and to be frank, as a as an economist, I would say, 198 00:27:03,740 --> 00:27:12,440 yeah, that makes rational sense if you have a relatively diversified economy and you can borrow at four percent. 199 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:27,530 Around the same time that you borrow from the fund, the preference to go to markets is is one that makes logical sense. 200 00:27:27,530 --> 00:27:34,280 We have had some countries coming to the fund for precautionary. 201 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:42,890 Lines of credit. They are primarily they're all in Latin America countries that very wisely said, Well, 202 00:27:42,890 --> 00:27:50,300 if you got the butter from the front, our borrowing costs would go down and we have more certainty. 203 00:27:50,300 --> 00:27:58,460 And especially when these are commodity exporters at the time, commodity prices went up. 204 00:27:58,460 --> 00:28:11,330 Very good choice. So I look at the demand with full understanding that it came primarily, if not exclusively, 205 00:28:11,330 --> 00:28:17,090 primarily because they had been countries that could borrow from markets but also borrowed from the front as the 206 00:28:17,090 --> 00:28:27,550 signal to markets that did not have access and do not have access to markets or it is prohibitively expensive. 207 00:28:27,550 --> 00:28:34,390 Going forward, one thing I keep reminding people, this crisis is not over. 208 00:28:34,390 --> 00:28:47,520 And I'm much more comfortable having. Significant firing power at the IMF as we move to the next stage of the recovery. 209 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:53,100 Why? Because there are risks for emerging markets. 210 00:28:53,100 --> 00:28:57,770 One significant risk is good news. 211 00:28:57,770 --> 00:29:02,480 For many, turning into bad news for some, 212 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:15,770 if growth accelerates and it leads to faster withdrawal of policy support and an increase of interest rates, especially in the US. 213 00:29:15,770 --> 00:29:25,880 That could turn into a big problem for economies that are still on a big footing that are part of this dangerous divergence. 214 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:34,020 They haven't yet recouped growth, but they have to pay more for that, especially when that is high. 215 00:29:34,020 --> 00:29:43,100 But both the official and private sector, that so this risk is still still there. 216 00:29:43,100 --> 00:29:51,690 And secondly, you spoke about that. Not only that, deficits have gone up. 217 00:29:51,690 --> 00:29:55,890 Deficits in advanced economies now averaged 12 percent, 218 00:29:55,890 --> 00:30:08,470 almost eleven point seven deficits in emerging markets average close to 10 percent deficits in low income countries five point five percent. 219 00:30:08,470 --> 00:30:16,330 This is still to be handled. And if you if we are lucky to be on the fast growth path and by the way, in our paper, 220 00:30:16,330 --> 00:30:25,030 one of the main policy objectives is concentrate on growth, growth inducing investments. 221 00:30:25,030 --> 00:30:37,000 We may be we may be in a situation when interest rates are still low, growth goes up, deficits and debt can be serviced well. 222 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:41,050 But what if there is another shock? What if something else happens? 223 00:30:41,050 --> 00:30:49,270 What if the race between the virus and the vaccines temporarily is watched by the virus? 224 00:30:49,270 --> 00:30:54,370 And at that time, I do believe that having the fund there matters. 225 00:30:54,370 --> 00:31:03,610 I would admit for some countries, the so-called stigma still holds them back. 226 00:31:03,610 --> 00:31:18,430 I do hope that this year, where we have demonstrated you can trust the firm and to see see good things coming to the fore when they need to. 227 00:31:18,430 --> 00:31:31,540 On debt relief. Yeah. And I I do believe very strongly that the common framework that the G20 adopted is a major step forward. 228 00:31:31,540 --> 00:31:42,520 What it does is to bring public and private creditors together on a case by case basis to bring down debt to sustainable levels. 229 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:54,850 We have three countries that ask for it. Chad, Ethiopia, Zambia very important to make progress because that would signal to other countries. 230 00:31:54,850 --> 00:32:03,690 If you need it, you can come to the common framework and we have to think about strengthening that resolution. 231 00:32:03,690 --> 00:32:13,440 Especially knowing that. Support policy support has kept bankruptcies low last year. 232 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:22,380 That may not last. And therefore, we have to have good capacity for insolvency and also for sovereign debt resolution, 233 00:32:22,380 --> 00:32:27,120 continue to improve it, and the fund, of course, is engaging in that. 234 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:32,750 That's very up for one explanation that you haven't mentioned that I've read 235 00:32:32,750 --> 00:32:38,790 that the credit rating agencies are a problem because the threat of downgrading 236 00:32:38,790 --> 00:32:43,560 if countries seek debt relief is real and that many have avoided going to the 237 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:48,300 fund because or seeking debt relief because they're worried of downgrading. 238 00:32:48,300 --> 00:32:53,730 Is that as big an issue as as is made out and should something be done about it? 239 00:32:53,730 --> 00:33:05,970 We do have the anecdote from Ethiopia. Ethiopia announced that they would like to benefit from the common framework, and they were downgraded. 240 00:33:05,970 --> 00:33:14,280 We, we obviously have to respect the independence of rating agencies. 241 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,100 That being said, there is, of course, 242 00:33:17,100 --> 00:33:31,920 a need for all of us to assess carefully how this crisis is different and how the response to this crisis has to be different and what what we can do. 243 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,250 And I, you're right to bring that up. 244 00:33:35,250 --> 00:33:40,810 We have to do even more of it is to continue to. 245 00:33:40,810 --> 00:33:50,510 Analyse and explain. What policy action is necessary and why we need to look at that? 246 00:33:50,510 --> 00:33:56,750 And deficits everywhere from the prism of this very different crisis? 247 00:33:56,750 --> 00:34:02,050 I also want to say because this probably is not being said enough. 248 00:34:02,050 --> 00:34:10,700 Low for longer doesn't mean low forever. And deficits at that level. 249 00:34:10,700 --> 00:34:18,650 And not the healthy thing. So now our priority is to go through the crisis. 250 00:34:18,650 --> 00:34:24,640 Actually, our priority is to vaccinate everybody everywhere, first and foremost. 251 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:29,980 And support households and businesses until we get out of it. 252 00:34:29,980 --> 00:34:36,080 But we also have to think medium term how we are going to bring debt levels down. 253 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:47,750 Deficit levels down. What does it mean for taxation? I'm very encouraged by the conversations around minimal corporate rate tax. 254 00:34:47,750 --> 00:34:50,960 Progressivity of taxation has to be looked into. 255 00:34:50,960 --> 00:35:01,440 So there is work to be to be done on multiple fronts and not not just looking at one indicator at one point. 256 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:07,140 The things that's so encouraging as someone who's worked with and observed the fund over many, many years, 257 00:35:07,140 --> 00:35:15,420 is that your pace of acceleration in terms of policy change and thinking about new ideas has really kept with the times in many ways. 258 00:35:15,420 --> 00:35:22,950 And I was very struck and you've talked about inequality and the climate in an increasingly broad set of issues. 259 00:35:22,950 --> 00:35:33,100 But I was very struck by your recent proposal from not you, but your colleagues on a solidarity tax and that you support very much. 260 00:35:33,100 --> 00:35:41,760 You've mentioned the corporate higher taxes and uniform corporate taxes in support of the obesity BEPS process, but also in solidarity tax. 261 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:49,050 You want to say something about why you calling and what the solidarity tax means and why are you calling for that? 262 00:35:49,050 --> 00:35:59,700 Solidarity tax is not a new idea. Effectively has been done in exceptional circumstances, for example, the unification of Germany. 263 00:35:59,700 --> 00:36:15,990 It is a one off tax on the higher incomes and profit that helps to support those that that find themselves in a very difficult situation. 264 00:36:15,990 --> 00:36:28,410 Both sectors and communities and individuals, we think that in this crisis there is a rationale to think to apply that idea. 265 00:36:28,410 --> 00:36:34,220 Why? Because parts of the economy are doing extremely well. 266 00:36:34,220 --> 00:36:42,140 And other parts are sinking, contact depends on the industries are sinking, low skilled workers, 267 00:36:42,140 --> 00:36:50,060 women, young people much more severely impacted, whereas the digital economy took off. 268 00:36:50,060 --> 00:36:54,510 It's like moving on steroids. And. 269 00:36:54,510 --> 00:37:08,790 There is some value in thinking whether we can have some support and solidarity to keep the not only to help people in the altruistic way, 270 00:37:08,790 --> 00:37:15,580 but to keep the productivity of the economy charged up and up. 271 00:37:15,580 --> 00:37:24,100 To keep the social fabric healthier, we talk these days a lot about pent up demand. 272 00:37:24,100 --> 00:37:29,450 People say now they are going to be vaccinated, go out and spend. 273 00:37:29,450 --> 00:37:35,870 Possible, true, may even have some impact on temporary impact on inflation. 274 00:37:35,870 --> 00:37:41,320 We are not talking enough about pent up protests. 275 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:50,400 We know that after a big crisis. Some 18 months later, two years later. 276 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,530 If. Inequality is not addressed. 277 00:37:54,530 --> 00:38:08,730 It translates into discontent, and this discontent turns into a fertile ground not only for unproductive use of talent. 278 00:38:08,730 --> 00:38:17,280 But also for violence, for populism, for things that hurt the economy. 279 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:31,020 So this is why we we were we looked at it and said, OK, that is, of course, a police policy choice of countries, but it should be on the menu. 280 00:38:31,020 --> 00:38:36,360 Well, I mean, for someone who's who's long been supporting that, 281 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:44,650 I can't applaud you enough and just to see the transformation of the fund from the Fund of the previous century to the fund, 282 00:38:44,650 --> 00:38:49,220 the fit for 21st century meeting this pandemic has been very, very encouraging. 283 00:38:49,220 --> 00:38:58,500 Let's go to some of the questions that have been posed. And one of them, which has got a lot of votes, is about green growth. 284 00:38:58,500 --> 00:39:05,100 So one of the things that's that that I'm very aware of coming out of the financial crisis is that it led to 285 00:39:05,100 --> 00:39:14,400 a very sharp spike in carbon emissions as the big fiscal stimulus was spent on heavy carbon emission areas, 286 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:19,680 not least infrastructure, cement and investment. 287 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:26,850 Can you say something about how the fund sees green growth, reconcile sustainable and development? 288 00:39:26,850 --> 00:39:37,920 And what you are thinking about is how the fiscal stimulus that you design might also meet in addition to post-pandemic climate change objectives? 289 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,730 I'm adding my vote to those with this question. 290 00:39:41,730 --> 00:39:44,280 It's a great question. 291 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:54,300 We we recognise that before we got into the pandemic, there were problems hanging over our heads and the climate crisis was one of them. 292 00:39:54,300 --> 00:40:05,430 It has gone nowhere. If anything, we see the evidence that the urgency to act, this is absolutely pressing. 293 00:40:05,430 --> 00:40:17,850 What we look at is can we combine support for exiting the economic crisis from the pandemic with the shift to green growth and the answer is yes. 294 00:40:17,850 --> 00:40:25,920 And what we what we propose is a is based on three pillars one carbon price. 295 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:32,520 We have to price carbon to create an incentive for low carbon intensity of our 296 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:39,750 economies and provide forward guidance how this price is going to gradually go up. 297 00:40:39,750 --> 00:40:48,690 So they only 23 percent of emissions are being covered by some form of carbon price, either tax or trade. 298 00:40:48,690 --> 00:40:52,350 But the good news is that it is five percent more than last year. 299 00:40:52,350 --> 00:41:04,110 So there is some some movement in that in that direction. Second, green infrastructure push, meaning clean up green mobility. 300 00:41:04,110 --> 00:41:10,230 You know, electric mobility built the charging stations that would give an impetus to shift 301 00:41:10,230 --> 00:41:19,290 from the vehicles of the 20th century to those of the 21st mobility of 21st. 302 00:41:19,290 --> 00:41:26,400 And of course, look at the trains and other ways of transportation. 303 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:38,880 Get the massive investment in reducing the carbon intensity of our living and working quarters because buildings are a massive contributor. 304 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:45,090 So bringing down inefficiency, insulation, 305 00:41:45,090 --> 00:41:55,470 moving to to construction that naturally reduce energy consumption hugely important renewable energy on a massive scale, 306 00:41:55,470 --> 00:42:01,770 it is unforgivable to have countries with plenty of sunshine and very little solar. 307 00:42:01,770 --> 00:42:08,580 How could that be? I used to live in Brussels, Brussels. I can tell you, is not the sunny place, 308 00:42:08,580 --> 00:42:16,050 but there was an incentive programme for people to put solar on their roofs and you drive in, go around in Brussels. 309 00:42:16,050 --> 00:42:26,520 There is solar and then I go to Indonesia or to to a sub-Saharan Africa, and it's limited that has to be changed dramatically and fast. 310 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:35,770 And then, of course, looking at how we make our life agriculture huge opportunities. 311 00:42:35,770 --> 00:42:42,980 For reducing carbon emissions from their reforestation is. 312 00:42:42,980 --> 00:42:51,800 Mangroves, restoration, land restoration, there is so much we can do that creates jobs, 313 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:57,860 creates growth opportunities and makes us more resilient to climate change. 314 00:42:57,860 --> 00:43:10,760 And the third pillar just transition, we will fail if we don't take care of the people and the businesses that are affected by this transition. 315 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:20,720 So how we use public support, including from if we generate money from carbon price to help people and communities and businesses to adapt, 316 00:43:20,720 --> 00:43:25,520 that would make a huge difference. So where are we today? 317 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:31,280 The first round of fiscal stimulus was not fantastic. 318 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:36,590 We calculated that only around five percent went into that direction. 319 00:43:36,590 --> 00:43:46,130 But now we see a massive increase in the European Union with the new generation EU in the United States, 320 00:43:46,130 --> 00:43:51,320 with the proposed infrastructure package in China across the world. 321 00:43:51,320 --> 00:44:06,980 I think the more we equip policymakers with this right policies to move, the better because the next couple of years are going to make it. 322 00:44:06,980 --> 00:44:15,260 Or not? And I'm Ian, I'm ultimately the the optimist we are going to make it. 323 00:44:15,260 --> 00:44:17,840 Well, we certainly have to. 324 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:26,300 The options of not making it are so terrible, but the IMF absolutely, and you have a critical role to play and thank you for that. 325 00:44:26,300 --> 00:44:33,680 And I think it also addresses another question which is coming, which is sustainable and development incompatible. 326 00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:42,350 And I think you've demonstrated how they can be made compatible. Another question is on tax avoidance and evasion. 327 00:44:42,350 --> 00:44:48,620 It says putting an end to tax avoidance and evasion is critical to achieve the SDGs. 328 00:44:48,620 --> 00:44:55,250 What is the IMF doing to support this? And do you support a minimum corporation tax of 25 percent, 329 00:44:55,250 --> 00:45:07,480 automatic exchange of information and other similarly related initiatives for for quite some time, the fund has been very supportive of the. 330 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:14,410 Uniform corporate tax to reduce tax avoidance and within countries, 331 00:45:14,410 --> 00:45:24,850 a big chunk of the work we do in policy supporting capacity development is to strengthen tax administrations so they can collect taxes, 332 00:45:24,850 --> 00:45:30,850 they can impose the right taxes and then collect tax revenues effectively. 333 00:45:30,850 --> 00:45:43,250 We just published a book. It is on that topic of tax and it basically says very simply, the. 334 00:45:43,250 --> 00:45:50,590 Boxing is as old as civilisation, as is the attempt to avoid paying taxes. 335 00:45:50,590 --> 00:46:01,200 So we are going to be always in this conundrum of businesses and people trying to. 336 00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:08,160 Sneaked through and pay less taxes. How that can be addressed. 337 00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:15,730 Transparency. We are very much in favour of as much. 338 00:46:15,730 --> 00:46:28,660 Use of digital technologies. To make the invisible visible, how much is your income, how much is your tax obligation and you paid that. 339 00:46:28,660 --> 00:46:35,770 But also simplification, we have seen one of the big sources of tax avoidance is complicated tax cuts. 340 00:46:35,770 --> 00:46:41,500 So the more we can move in that direction, uniform taxation. 341 00:46:41,500 --> 00:46:51,440 So there is no race to the bottom. Transparency, that's transparency and transparency and simplification, 342 00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:59,330 and then learn from each other because what I learnt in my in my experience is that 343 00:46:59,330 --> 00:47:09,530 very often the the tax road is paved with good intentions that cause trouble. 344 00:47:09,530 --> 00:47:21,440 The book I mentioned that has one very interesting anecdote from the UK when the in the 18th century tax was put on windows. 345 00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:26,030 Why so tax inspectors don't bother families to go in? 346 00:47:26,030 --> 00:47:38,390 But then what happened was people started breaking their windows and the tax became hated because they ended up with no light and no clean air, 347 00:47:38,390 --> 00:47:47,330 maybe paying less taxes. So we have to always in this tax discussion, always also think of the law of unintended consequences. 348 00:47:47,330 --> 00:47:55,640 And this is why I emphasise this learning from from each other as well. 349 00:47:55,640 --> 00:48:01,490 Thank you. Yeah. Clearly an area where there's huge need for cooperation and sharing, 350 00:48:01,490 --> 00:48:09,380 but amazing progress being made in recent months, not least by the US and in this regard, so it's encouraging. 351 00:48:09,380 --> 00:48:18,730 A question which has received many votes is what is the role of global institutions in job creation for sustainable development? 352 00:48:18,730 --> 00:48:26,900 I know the fund has written about the multipliers in job creation, from fiscal stimulus and from other actions. 353 00:48:26,900 --> 00:48:33,710 But how would you respond to this question specifically for the IMF? 354 00:48:33,710 --> 00:48:44,600 We have three very important and if you feel qualified to answer for other global institutions, OK, so but obviously global institutions bring. 355 00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:49,790 Two very important pieces of answering this question. 356 00:48:49,790 --> 00:49:02,150 The one is sharing experience. I cannot overstate this transmission line role that global institutions play. 357 00:49:02,150 --> 00:49:07,640 To learn best practise and to avoid worst mistakes. 358 00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:20,420 And then, of course, secondly, if you travel to finance sustainable development, that creates well-paying jobs. 359 00:49:20,420 --> 00:49:28,160 And for that for us and the fact that what this means is one we have a very unique functionality, 360 00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:32,750 scope surveillance for those who may not know what it is. 361 00:49:32,750 --> 00:49:40,850 We are like a doctor that takes the vital signs of individual countries to make 362 00:49:40,850 --> 00:49:44,750 sure the world economy that countries are healthy in the world economy is healthy. 363 00:49:44,750 --> 00:49:51,620 So we have individual countries surveillance. We do it regularly and we have global surveillance. 364 00:49:51,620 --> 00:49:55,400 Why is this important for the the question you ask? 365 00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:57,110 Because of this transmission line, 366 00:49:57,110 --> 00:50:12,640 but also because of detecting problems like wasteful spending or insufficient collection of public revenues or very bad. 367 00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:19,300 Problems in policy terms that that stop private investment for for investing, 368 00:50:19,300 --> 00:50:25,540 because in the end, most jobs are created by private sector in developing countries. 369 00:50:25,540 --> 00:50:31,270 90 percent of jobs are created by private sector, so we do that. 370 00:50:31,270 --> 00:50:42,390 And secondly, we we do support countries that are faced with difficulties to come up with with good policy packages. 371 00:50:42,390 --> 00:50:47,370 And we are now much more mindful that. 372 00:50:47,370 --> 00:51:01,860 Growth and jobs are hugely important and that you can only have high productivity in jobs if they are strong investments in human capital. 373 00:51:01,860 --> 00:51:12,290 I cannot repeat this. Enough. So what the fund has adopted is what we call social spending floors. 374 00:51:12,290 --> 00:51:19,640 We were often criticised that we go and say to countries Cut, cut, cut your budgets are blown up a cut. 375 00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:25,190 Now we are saying, yeah, be efficient, improve efficiency, but protect education, 376 00:51:25,190 --> 00:51:33,980 protect health, protect social protection, social safety, nets investment in people. 377 00:51:33,980 --> 00:51:41,190 And the third thing we do is capacity development. We do a lot of work. 378 00:51:41,190 --> 00:51:50,910 With with public authorities primarily, but also with private institutions around again, 379 00:51:50,910 --> 00:51:56,730 best practise experience, so they can they can actually go in that direction. 380 00:51:56,730 --> 00:52:07,950 We pay much more attention on employment. Then we used to used to do because exactly of the context of your question, 381 00:52:07,950 --> 00:52:21,270 it is critical for social sustainability to have people with meaningful, meaningful jobs. 382 00:52:21,270 --> 00:52:22,020 Yeah. 383 00:52:22,020 --> 00:52:31,170 And I mean, it's so interesting to observe the fund's evolution over the years, you know, talking about SDGs, talking about jobs, inequality, gender, 384 00:52:31,170 --> 00:52:35,190 all these issues because they are so vital as you, you know, 385 00:52:35,190 --> 00:52:42,120 recognised for for the viability of growth and economies, but huge, huge evolution in that. 386 00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:46,920 And I think what's to the point you make about learning by throwing the spotlight on mistakes, 387 00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:54,600 one learns faster than if one only talks about success, and I think that evaluation capacity has also strengthened enormously. 388 00:52:54,600 --> 00:53:00,030 I think the final question we'll have time for is regarding resilience, 389 00:53:00,030 --> 00:53:08,250 and it's is that the concept has not really been applied across the SDGs in all the goals and targets. 390 00:53:08,250 --> 00:53:14,670 And given the pandemic, should we be thinking more about resilience in economies? 391 00:53:14,670 --> 00:53:22,830 And how would one do this in terms of embedding them in the SDGs and in programmes? 392 00:53:22,830 --> 00:53:29,930 One of my. Most. 393 00:53:29,930 --> 00:53:41,010 Impactful parts in my professional life was to be for five years, humanitarian in crisis response commissioner. 394 00:53:41,010 --> 00:53:52,950 With a front seat in the most dramatic shocks, hitting communities in countries from the earthquake in Haiti to the great, 395 00:53:52,950 --> 00:54:00,720 this Japan earthquake two floods in Pakistan to the war in Syria. 396 00:54:00,720 --> 00:54:09,250 And what I learnt in this painful engagement with people. 397 00:54:09,250 --> 00:54:23,550 Was very simple that. Resilience of people of communities is paramount in a shock prone world, 398 00:54:23,550 --> 00:54:33,120 and that we have to change our mindset to integrate in a very holistic way that concept of resilience. 399 00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:36,810 And what if we go back after 2009, 400 00:54:36,810 --> 00:54:45,990 the global financial crisis the world concentrated on the resilience of the banking sector in the lot of good work was done. 401 00:54:45,990 --> 00:54:50,900 So now we are in this crisis, we don't have a banking crisis. 402 00:54:50,900 --> 00:55:03,210 But this is very narrow. This pandemic tells us that we have to expand this concept of resilience and think about resilient people. 403 00:55:03,210 --> 00:55:08,660 And again, I'm repeating myself the people that are educated, that are healthy. 404 00:55:08,660 --> 00:55:14,600 That are operating in a healthy social fabric of their communities. 405 00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:24,860 We need a resilient planet. We cannot any more function as if natural resources are unlimited. 406 00:55:24,860 --> 00:55:37,520 They're not. And we need more broadly resilient economies in which we do work on strong fundamentals where we think about buffers, 407 00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:46,820 so we are better prepared for shocks. But we also think about the fairness of these economies, the inclusiveness of what we achieve. 408 00:55:46,820 --> 00:55:53,070 We are fantastic. We are so creative. 409 00:55:53,070 --> 00:55:58,830 And the majority of people on this planet are actually very good people. 410 00:55:58,830 --> 00:56:05,900 They do want to help others. We have to use that. 411 00:56:05,900 --> 00:56:15,840 Social unity, much more. And again, even if you allow me, I would finish with one of the big lessons I learnt in this five years. 412 00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:22,570 That goodness is very quiet. Hey, it's very loud. 413 00:56:22,570 --> 00:56:31,340 Is so how how we can get to amplify these voices of solidarity and inclusion. 414 00:56:31,340 --> 00:56:36,540 This is for all of us and I think it is part of my job. 415 00:56:36,540 --> 00:56:44,600 To loudly speak about it from the position I currently hold. 416 00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:53,260 It can and is often said for bad to triumph only requires that good stay silent and stares on the sidelines so. 417 00:56:53,260 --> 00:56:57,160 Absolutely. And I think those lessons on resilience are very poignant. 418 00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:05,410 And as we think about them, obviously we think of the tragic situation unfolding in India and the terrible suffering that's happening there and in 419 00:57:05,410 --> 00:57:14,260 many places around the world that I'm sure participants in this webinar are from and and our heart goes out to them. 420 00:57:14,260 --> 00:57:19,900 We need to do more and we need to do more more urgently, but also learn from this crisis. 421 00:57:19,900 --> 00:57:29,110 That is the topic of rescue, which I'll be discussing on a webinar on the 19th of May at 5:00 PM if you're interested. 422 00:57:29,110 --> 00:57:35,980 We also have started in the Oxford Martin School, a new research programme on the future of development. 423 00:57:35,980 --> 00:57:44,110 I have eight vacancies out, so those of you with doctorates or close to doctorates that would be interested in working 424 00:57:44,110 --> 00:57:50,080 in Oxford have a look at the Oxford Martin School's website vacancies page for that. 425 00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:53,530 The closing date is the 12th of May for those positions, 426 00:57:53,530 --> 00:58:00,070 and we're trying to think about the issues that we've been discussing today going forward in a positive way. 427 00:58:00,070 --> 00:58:05,320 It's been a treat to have Kristina Gogi have with us. 428 00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:06,500 Your time is precious. 429 00:58:06,500 --> 00:58:15,430 You need to get on with that SDR and many other agendas, but we hope that you found it as worthwhile as I'm sure all the participants have. 430 00:58:15,430 --> 00:58:21,100 And thank you for your very frank and open way of discussing my sometimes difficult questions. 431 00:58:21,100 --> 00:58:31,180 But it is, I think, very much part of the new fund sharing ideas and certainly the paper that you've launched today is a key key part of that. 432 00:58:31,180 --> 00:58:34,840 So thank you so much, Christina. Wonderful to see you. 433 00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:36,970 And to all the participants. 434 00:58:36,970 --> 00:58:46,330 I hope you stay in health and that you take to heart some of the messages that Christina's shared and they help you in your work as you go forward. 435 00:58:46,330 --> 00:58:50,408 Thanks to all of you. Thank you. Thank you. Bye.